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Abolition of Physical Levels / Attribute Point RevisionsFollow

#52 Sep 01 2011 at 1:45 PM Rating: Good
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9,526 posts
FilthMcNasty wrote:
They seem to have a team of developers who actually know what they're doing and have been steadily bring players back to the game instead of turning them away in droves like XIV. I'm completely baffled by the lack of test servers here.


Letter from the producer about test servers:

Quote:
FINAL FANTASY Test Server: A Message from the Producer

I am pleased to announce the launch of the long-awaited FINAL FANTASY Test Server. This marks a milestone in a new era that began with the establishment of the official forums, bringing our development team and user community ever closer together with the goal of providing the highest quality product to FINAL FANTASY XI players everywhere.

Due to file size and download protocol limitations, the server client is available for the Windows PC platform only. Furthermore, as the server will focus on still-in-development content and features, we ask for your patience and understanding with the occasional issues and instabilities that will undoubtedly occur.

With the establishment of this server, FFXI development will shift gradually from a semimonthly update schedule to one in which new content can continually be tested and released as soon as it is complete. In the meantime, the test server will offer a preview of features in the works for the upcoming version update. We look forward to your participation and receiving your valuable feedback on the forums.

The development team and I will listen closely to your voices as we endeavor to bring even greater challenges and excitement to the world of Vana’diel.

We hope that you will continue to enjoy your adventures with us for a long time to come.

Sincerely,

Hiromichi Tanaka
Producer, FINAL FANTASY XI



Does that name look familiar? lol
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#53 Sep 01 2011 at 2:11 PM Rating: Good
Olorinus wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
They seem to have a team of developers who actually know what they're doing and have been steadily bring players back to the game instead of turning them away in droves like XIV. I'm completely baffled by the lack of test servers here.


Letter from the producer about test servers:

Quote:
FINAL FANTASY Test Server: A Message from the Producer

I am pleased to announce the launch of the long-awaited FINAL FANTASY Test Server. This marks a milestone in a new era that began with the establishment of the official forums, bringing our development team and user community ever closer together with the goal of providing the highest quality product to FINAL FANTASY XI players everywhere.

Due to file size and download protocol limitations, the server client is available for the Windows PC platform only. Furthermore, as the server will focus on still-in-development content and features, we ask for your patience and understanding with the occasional issues and instabilities that will undoubtedly occur.

With the establishment of this server, FFXI development will shift gradually from a semimonthly update schedule to one in which new content can continually be tested and released as soon as it is complete. In the meantime, the test server will offer a preview of features in the works for the upcoming version update. We look forward to your participation and receiving your valuable feedback on the forums.

The development team and I will listen closely to your voices as we endeavor to bring even greater challenges and excitement to the world of Vana’diel.

We hope that you will continue to enjoy your adventures with us for a long time to come.

Sincerely,

Hiromichi Tanaka
Producer, FINAL FANTASY XI



Does that name look familiar? lol


I like Tanaka in relation to FFXI, so seeing him keep up the good work with it is great. But I agree, we already saw what he did to FFXIV, stop deluding yourself into thinking FFXI is getting all this special treatment. Tanaka is just doing what he knows best: FFXI. Yoshi-P has already proved he is way better with FFXIV then Tanaka could ever dream of.
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#54 Sep 01 2011 at 2:38 PM Rating: Good
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952 posts
StateAlchemist the Eccentric wrote:
RamseySylph wrote:
CupDeNoodles wrote:
RamseySylph wrote:
I am worried about them re-implementing voluntary stat distribution later on... I don't want voluntary stat distribution, unless it's more along the lines of merits, where I'm only adjusting a small percentage of bonus points.


I honestly couldn't hit the red arrow fast enough. Why the blazes would you want less customization?


It's not customization, it's simply the ability for people to make mistakes with the way they build their stats. The way the game is moving, towards distinctly different jobs, there's no reason to have to keep track of your stat builds on every job.

Being able to decide a fraction of your points I support perhaps, choose if you want a little more survivability, or a little more power.

I agree. With unlimited customization, comes the chance of huge imbalance issues. One job may end up doing something completely off the wall that SE never EVER intended for it to do, and because of that could cause one class to become all but obsolete. Allowing for restricted customization, gives the player a feeling of uniqueness, but keep control of the classes better by still limiting their effectiveness outside the boundries of what it should be able to do.

Being able to make yourself a little more beefy, or sacrifice some sustain for extra damage really is great so a player can choose whether or not to play a little more reckless or a little more careful. To put it better...make them more effective in a party where they may not take damage, but make them have more sustain when soloing and getting hit continuously.

Personally it doesn't matter all that much to me as long as they don't ***** up crafting. So hopefully the general community won't be disappointed.


Docent42 wrote:
CupDeNoodles wrote:
I honestly couldn't hit the red arrow fast enough. Why the blazes would you want less customization?

There's only customization until some guy figures out the best build/best stats and writes a FAQ. Then it's either you follow the train, or you're left in the dust.

I'm with Rams in that I would rather not have the option, if it ends up being a non-option.


---

Short history lesson: WoW used to allow stat distribution per level, a-la Diablo. They canned it way before release, because people were making horrible builds, or over-powered ones. By forcing class-specific stats, they have narrowed the gap between casual and hardcore -- if that's a good thing or not, that's pretty much up to every individual to judge, but 11 million people seem to prefer it that way.


I see it differently. I see people arranging stats to suit the situation. Take examples of soloing versus party play. While soloing one might want to put stats into more VIT instead of STR to gain more survivability and switch back when in a party situation.

This to me would make more sense than having to carry around gear for every situation.

They could easily allow a cap per level. As an example capping STR at any given level as to not allow players of lower level to tackle mobs of much higher level. It can be balanced just fine if the developers make the effort to do it.

The real question is, do they want to give us predetermined stats with customization only happening via gear or allow us the opportunity to make our own custom sets with gear only adding minor changes.

I for one like the idea of being able to change the way I play whenever I deem necessary without having to rely on mountains of gear.

Regardless of the situation there will always be those min-maxers who will still seek gear out.

I like the idea of more freedom.
#55 Sep 01 2011 at 2:58 PM Rating: Good
CupDeNoodles wrote:
They could easily allow a cap per level. As an example capping STR at any given level as to not allow players of lower level to tackle mobs of much higher level. It can be balanced just fine if the developers make the effort to do it.


Well as far as HP and MP we know there currently is. What I am more concerned about is whether or not that goes for all other stats in the game as well.
____________________________
Humankind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something of equal value must be lost.
Data Center: Primal; Server: Ultros; Free Company: The Kraken Club; Grand Company: The Maelstrom; Chocobo: Kweh
#56 Sep 01 2011 at 3:03 PM Rating: Decent
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3,962 posts
CupDeNoodles wrote:
StateAlchemist the Eccentric wrote:
RamseySylph wrote:
CupDeNoodles wrote:
RamseySylph wrote:
I am worried about them re-implementing voluntary stat distribution later on... I don't want voluntary stat distribution, unless it's more along the lines of merits, where I'm only adjusting a small percentage of bonus points.


I honestly couldn't hit the red arrow fast enough. Why the blazes would you want less customization?


It's not customization, it's simply the ability for people to make mistakes with the way they build their stats. The way the game is moving, towards distinctly different jobs, there's no reason to have to keep track of your stat builds on every job.

Being able to decide a fraction of your points I support perhaps, choose if you want a little more survivability, or a little more power.

I agree. With unlimited customization, comes the chance of huge imbalance issues. One job may end up doing something completely off the wall that SE never EVER intended for it to do, and because of that could cause one class to become all but obsolete. Allowing for restricted customization, gives the player a feeling of uniqueness, but keep control of the classes better by still limiting their effectiveness outside the boundries of what it should be able to do.

Being able to make yourself a little more beefy, or sacrifice some sustain for extra damage really is great so a player can choose whether or not to play a little more reckless or a little more careful. To put it better...make them more effective in a party where they may not take damage, but make them have more sustain when soloing and getting hit continuously.

Personally it doesn't matter all that much to me as long as they don't ***** up crafting. So hopefully the general community won't be disappointed.


Docent42 wrote:
CupDeNoodles wrote:
I honestly couldn't hit the red arrow fast enough. Why the blazes would you want less customization?

There's only customization until some guy figures out the best build/best stats and writes a FAQ. Then it's either you follow the train, or you're left in the dust.

I'm with Rams in that I would rather not have the option, if it ends up being a non-option.


---

Short history lesson: WoW used to allow stat distribution per level, a-la Diablo. They canned it way before release, because people were making horrible builds, or over-powered ones. By forcing class-specific stats, they have narrowed the gap between casual and hardcore -- if that's a good thing or not, that's pretty much up to every individual to judge, but 11 million people seem to prefer it that way.


I see it differently. I see people arranging stats to suit the situation. Take examples of soloing versus party play. While soloing one might want to put stats into more VIT instead of STR to gain more survivability and switch back when in a party situation.

This to me would make more sense than having to carry around gear for every situation.

They could easily allow a cap per level. As an example capping STR at any given level as to not allow players of lower level to tackle mobs of much higher level. It can be balanced just fine if the developers make the effort to do it.

The real question is, do they want to give us predetermined stats with customization only happening via gear or allow us the opportunity to make our own custom sets with gear only adding minor changes.

I for one like the idea of being able to change the way I play whenever I deem necessary without having to rely on mountains of gear.

Regardless of the situation there will always be those min-maxers who will still seek gear out.

I like the idea of more freedom.



Really? You'd rather a character have to shift their stats regularly as opposed to wearing different gear for different situations?

Practically, and from an immersion standpoint I'd have to agree to disagree on this.

A mage wearing heavier equipment, or a tank wearing lighter equipment to balance their stats out more when adventuring alone makes a lot more sense to me than a tank suddenly becoming frailer and quicker, and a mage becoming less intelligent and more sturdy.

It's also a pain in my opinion to have to remember what my exact stat #s were and adjust them. Even more of a pain to save different stat distributions. As long as I don't have to carry around 9 different gear sets that I'm swapping out DURING combat a la FFXI, I'm fine with having 1-3 sets for totally different types of play.
#57 Sep 01 2011 at 6:16 PM Rating: Decent
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952 posts
StateAlchemist the Eccentric wrote:
CupDeNoodles wrote:
They could easily allow a cap per level. As an example capping STR at any given level as to not allow players of lower level to tackle mobs of much higher level. It can be balanced just fine if the developers make the effort to do it.


Well as far as HP and MP we know there currently is. What I am more concerned about is whether or not that goes for all other stats in the game as well.


I would assume that is what they are planning to some degree. Having caps for stats at different levels.

RamseySylph wrote:
Really? You'd rather a character have to shift their stats regularly as opposed to wearing different gear for different situations?

Practically, and from an immersion standpoint I'd have to agree to disagree on this.

A mage wearing heavier equipment, or a tank wearing lighter equipment to balance their stats out more when adventuring alone makes a lot more sense to me than a tank suddenly becoming frailer and quicker, and a mage becoming less intelligent and more sturdy.

It's also a pain in my opinion to have to remember what my exact stat #s were and adjust them. Even more of a pain to save different stat distributions. As long as I don't have to carry around 9 different gear sets that I'm swapping out DURING combat a la FFXI, I'm fine with having 1-3 sets for totally different types of play.


I suppose we would have to agree to disagree then.
#58 Sep 01 2011 at 8:08 PM Rating: Excellent
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12,735 posts
ok so...

First they change the battle system to be more auto-attack heavy...then remove points but will allow you to allocate some of them at endlevel...

FFXI-2 anyone? Smiley: laugh

The point thing is one of the things I really liked, too. =\
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#59 Sep 01 2011 at 8:11 PM Rating: Good
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1,949 posts
Really, the only thing I'll miss from the point allocation is the ability to get "divine" effect from clever food selection... Unless they also change food effects in this patch, culinarians will once again be S.O.L.

Because food buffs are actually pretty potent at the moment, if you know the really bizarre rules that govern them...
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#60 Sep 01 2011 at 9:17 PM Rating: Decent
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3,962 posts
Docent42 wrote:
Really, the only thing I'll miss from the point allocation is the ability to get "divine" effect from clever food selection... Unless they also change food effects in this patch, culinarians will once again be S.O.L.

Because food buffs are actually pretty potent at the moment, if you know the really bizarre rules that govern them...


I don't expect them to change food in time for this patch unfortunately. I do hope they figure out a better set of rules to govern them though, at the moment it feels very artificial to gimp a stat to buff it or another with food.


Exodus wrote:
ok so...

First they change the battle system to be more auto-attack heavy...then remove points but will allow you to allocate some of them at endlevel...

FFXI-2 anyone? Smiley: laugh

The point thing is one of the things I really liked, too. =\


You took what some of us were saying we hoped would be implemented as fact.

Also, these two things hardly make the game FFXI-2, but that of course is an opinion, and you know what they say about opinions.

Edited, Sep 1st 2011 8:18pm by RamseySylph
#61 Sep 01 2011 at 9:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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Everyone has one and nobody likes them? Smiley: laugh
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FFXIV: Turk Kalahai @ Gridania, Balmung Server (RPC Link)
Rift: Kalahai @ Sanctum, Faeblight Server
#62 Sep 02 2011 at 2:20 AM Rating: Decent
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4,153 posts
Olorinus wrote:
Quote:
With the establishment of this server, FFXI development will shift gradually from a semimonthly update schedule to one in which new content can continually be tested and released as soon as it is complete. In the meantime, the test server will offer a preview of features in the works for the upcoming version update. We look forward to your participation and receiving your valuable feedback on the forums.

The development team and I will listen closely to your voices as we endeavor to bring even greater challenges and excitement to the world of Vana’diel.
Sincerely,

Hiromichi Tanaka
Producer, FINAL FANTASY XI
Does that name look familiar? lol

**** who's name is on it. It is(read: was, ever since it was added to other games) a great idea and I would think that if the name instead read Yoshi and the subject was XIV instead of XI, the players of XIV would be salivating constantly about the possibility of having things implemented constantly.

Prioritize several additions and adjustments, develop and upload to test server, evaluate and adjust if needed and then make the changes live. If XIV was doing this they would be much better off and changes would not only be coming faster, but they would only need to be released once.

If this idea was indeed Tanaka's then he deserves credit, even if it's something that is being done late. As far as I'm concerned, this is a step down the road to redemption for Tanaka. Depending on how well it is implemented for adding rather than it's current use of previewing content; I'd be willing to completely forgive him for XIV's failure.
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HaibaneRenmei wrote:
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cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#63 Sep 02 2011 at 3:20 AM Rating: Good
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4,153 posts
RamseySylph wrote:
Practically, and from an immersion standpoint I'd have to agree to disagree on this.

A mage wearing heavier equipment, or a tank wearing lighter equipment to balance their stats out more when adventuring alone makes a lot more sense to me than a tank suddenly becoming frailer and quicker, and a mage becoming less intelligent and more sturdy.

This problem has already been addressed in other games and I'm not sure why SE didn't consider it here. Maybe it was their idea for equipping weapons being what defines your class, but it needs to be addressed before anything else in my opinion. The direction XIV took with this idea is really going to cause issues and I hope their delay for the addition of jobs and changes to the class system are evidence of their understanding, not just "Oh look, it's a black mage! Wow, he's casting blizzaga! You remember those from old FF games you loved don't you? Now you should love XIV too!"

Practically, and from an immersion standpoint it should be about neither stats or gear, but about the abilities. Gear and stats should be secondary and play a much smaller role.

Look at other games that it works for. In WoW you have talent trees that allow you to unlock certain traits and abilities to allow players to tailor their class for different situations. Same thing in Rift. In FFXI you have stances or spell sets that function the same way.

If you are focusing on dealing damage as a warrior in XI you have abilities like Berserk, Warcry and Aggressor and traits like Attack Bonus, Double Attack and Critical Attack Bonus. When you are trying to mitigate damage you have the Defender and Retaliation abilities which mesh with Defense Bonus and Shield Mastery. Blue mages have the ability to set certain spells to grant them traits to support different types of play. Scholars can change between Dark Arts and Light Arts stances to decide whether they want to defend, support or attack. Abyssea !! proc aside, the jobs with these stances and abilities seem to be the most popular and are usually the most fun and challenging to play well.

XI has a big dependance on gear swapping that it could really do without, but otherwise they really hit the mark here. If you removed the "Increases effect" aspect of gear and instead granted the potency to base attributes then it would be far less of an issue. I much more prefer an attribute that is already present on most of the gear granting bonuses or increasing the potency of passive traits or abilities.

As I've stated before, the idea of a fighter stopping in the middle of battle to open their pack and play dress up solely for increasing the effect of a single attack, then stripping back down and replacing their gear is ridiculous to me. Increasing the effectiveness of traits based on which abilities or stances you have active is a much better model.

Changing stats should be limited to how it works in the XI merit system. Every class should have base stats that support the example above where favored stats increase the effectiveness of that class. Players could then sprinkle a handful of stats on top of these to 'specialize' their class.




____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#64 Sep 03 2011 at 4:21 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
XI has a big dependance on gear swapping that it could really do without, but otherwise they really hit the mark here. If you removed the "Increases effect" aspect of gear and instead granted the potency to base attributes then it would be far less of an issue. I much more prefer an attribute that is already present on most of the gear granting bonuses or increasing the potency of passive traits or abilities.

To an extent I agree. FFXI has some nice job specific equipment, but some of it has stats which are almost entirely wasted on the job it was designed for. Some pieces were fantastic for some tasks, while others were suited for another (Nobles Tunic for healing, for example, and Cleric's Briault for Regen).

Of course, the danger here is making a one-shot gear which does everything you need it to, which rules out diversity and customisation. I don't think we'll see an end to gear swapping unless the issue of balance can be resolved.
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#65 Sep 03 2011 at 7:41 AM Rating: Good
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4,153 posts
Glitterhands wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
XI has a big dependance on gear swapping that it could really do without, but otherwise they really hit the mark here. If you removed the "Increases effect" aspect of gear and instead granted the potency to base attributes then it would be far less of an issue. I much more prefer an attribute that is already present on most of the gear granting bonuses or increasing the potency of passive traits or abilities.
Of course, the danger here is making a one-shot gear which does everything you need it to, which rules out diversity and customisation. I don't think we'll see an end to gear swapping unless the issue of balance can be resolved.


I don't understand why this would be dangerous. The mechanics of the game rule out diversity and customization. When people gear swap in XI, they're just swapping in and out the same exact pieces(regular or +1 versions of the same stuff). Any whitemage who was casting barspells would be changing into blessed briault, then putting their nobles back on for heals. Absolutely no difference.

With the options for white mages especially, you couldn't even see them or what they are wearing most of the time from all the blinking. They have +refresh gear to idle in, -casting time gear to swap into pre-cast and then all their +healing potency gear to swap to before completing casts. That sh*t is ridiculous.

They should have made it so that the blessed briault had to be worn full-time to take advantage of the buff to barspells. Then instead of having several pieces of gear swapping macro'd into nearly anything you cast, players would have the dilemma of which piece of gear they should wear.

"Do I want the increased healing or is the barspell bonus going to mitigate enough magic damage to go with the briault?"

Translating this to real examples, when there is a chance of rain you have a dilemma if you're going outside. Do I take the umbrella and wear boots? Will a light jacket and sneakers be ok? Say @#%^ it and go out in your pajamas and flip-flops? How many people would leave their house with a duffle bag full of clothes and shoes to be prepared for every situation?

You take what you think might work best for whatever you're doing and I wish it had worked the same way in game.






Edited, Sep 3rd 2011 9:42am by FilthMcNasty
____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
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