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Claiming System Redux: Yoshida is cool with power levelingFollow

#1 Aug 30 2011 at 9:32 PM Rating: Good
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As translated by Bayohne, an SE community rep:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/22196-dev1026-Changes-to-Claiming-and-Engaging-Enemies?p=317185&viewfull=1#post317185

Naoki_Yoshida wrote:
Hello, this is Yoshida, the Producer/Director.

I appreciate all the comments from your heated discussion.
I will post my objectives regarding power leveling and the removal of the claim system.

I want to make it clear now that I believe there is no way to settle this argument in a way that everybody will be 100% satisfied with.
Also, this is going to be a very long post, so it may be a difficult read.
(I decided that I would divide up the post, rather than rush through each topic. I hope you read my entire post.)

This is an extreme example, but even for non-online, stand alone games, there are players who enjoy completing the game even if they use cheats to obtain all items or max out their levels. However, other players feel that this is a waste of time and that it defeats the purpose of buying the game. As such, this is a difficult issue to address.

In MMOs, there are players who would like help with leveling, because they want to play with other players as soon as possible. There are also players who would like to help new players level up, so that they can play with them. These players don’t want strong restrictions on power leveling, nor to be confined to parties with major level differences.

In contrast, there are players who believe that, “Players grow together with their characters,” “If other players are power leveling, leveling up becomes meaningless,” “Power leveling will become a necessary part of the game,” and “Power leveling will disrupt areas for proper party play.”

Even without considering RMT and people who level up other players’ characters for profit, this issue is the cause of a lot of friction. For online games, RMT and people who level up other players’ characters for profit will both certainly exist, so they must be considered. This is a good point of discussion, but opinions will vary based on perspective, so it is difficult to reach a definite conclusion.

Thus, I will post the development of how we reached the new specs.

Why the claiming system will be removed
We decided to remove the claiming system from FFXIV because we decided that claiming would become a troublesome spec in the future development of the game. When considering large scale PvE content involving multiple parties and PvP between large numbers of players, the spec that claiming occurs on a 1:1 basis becomes a nuisance. Also, instances will become more prevalent in future content. The concept of having to claim opponents to prevent being disturbed by other players becomes less and less relevant, so we decided that claiming is unnecessary.

Securing reward rights
Up next is the decision on the right to obtain rewards.
This regards who has the right to obtain experience points, dropped items, and quest completion flags when multiple parties (including solo players) attack the same monster.

In first generation MMOs the party that dealt the most damage to the monster was given the rights to the rewards. In the worst case, fighting over rewards was possible. The claiming system in FFXI was implemented to avoid this issue. I decided that it would be best for the player or party that attacked the monster first to obtain rights to the rewards. This makes it so that “the early bird gets the worm,” which I think is the simplest solution. Future content will be heavily instanced, so we think that NMs in public fields will be the most affected by these changes. Rather than allowing players to fight over rewards, I think it is better to feature some kind of gameplay system to make third party involvement in a NM battle impossible. As such, I decided to implement a “first attack” system for rewards rights.

Revision of distribution of rewards
Up next is experience points, the center of our debate.
If we simplify the specs, power leveling will certainly become easier.

I will provide an example involving soloing that is easy to understand. (Power leveling a party involving multiple levels is complicated) Suppose you attack a level 50 monster with your level 1 character. If a level 50 character nearby kills the level 50 monster, the skill points will be given to the level 1 character.

However, the gap between your level 1 character and the level 50 monster is too large, so the “defeating a higher rank monster bonus” will be significantly reduced. The experience points earned by the level 1 character will be adjusted quite drastically.

Suppose you attack a level 3 monster with your level 1 character and a level 50 character nearby kills the level 3 monster. The level 3 monster is appropriate for a level 1 character, so there will be no major drastic loss in experience points.

These are the basics. I will move on to determining whether or not a player is power leveling.

Determining power leveling
The standard for battle length from here on out will be 30-40 seconds to defeat a monster of the same level while soloing. It would take about 4-5 seconds for a level 50 character to defeat a level 3 monster next to a level 1 character. The level 1 character can obtain the full amount of experience points just by standing there. However, the level 50 player involved is spending their time leveling up the other player instead of playing other content.

At this point, it depends how the level 1 character feels about being "helped" by the level 50 character.

Forcing out power leveling
It is not easy to distinguish whether the above actions are an act of good will or serve the purpose of RMT or leveling up other characters for money.

By investigating logs, it is possible to identify for-profit violators and mete out punishment, but it would be very difficult to completely put an end to these actions. Doing so would require implementing very complicated specs, which will place a strain on ordinary users.

Distribute experience points based on the amount of damage done to the monster
Distribute experience points based on hate

The above methods were used by first generation MMOs to reduce power leveling, but these methods have their own problems. Players can aggressively fight each other over experience points, classes that do not do much damage are at a disadvantage, and for-profit violators can create bots that randomly attack monsters and steal EXP. (As I said earlier, we will punish for-profit violators. However, we do not want to ban ordinary players, so it will take us time to properly identify for-profit violators.)

One thing we would like to avoid all costs is EXP stealing by bots.

Conclusion
Taking everything into consideration, we understand that there will be pros and cons no matter what, but ultimately, we have decided that as a current generation MMORPG we would like to do something about,

"new players who would like some help, because they want to play with their friends as soon as possible, as well as players who are willing to sacrifice their own time to help out new players get involved in the game quicker."

We plan on implementing end-game content that is extremely difficult, so if assistance is necessary to reach this point I believe that it should be OK for players to help each other out, as long as there are players who are willing to help out.

Differences in gained experience points based on the difference between the player’s level and the defeated monster’s level will still exist, and will be adjusted. Our goal is to prevent any kind of extreme behavior. If any loopholes are found, we would like to fix these issues as they are discovered.

I believe that whether a player is playing seriously or not is a separate issue from whether the player is receiving assistance or not.

Personally, I am the type who believes that it is more fun to work hard and experience as much as you can first hand up until at least level 40, but if somebody comes asking for help saying, "I tried my best up until level 30, but I don’t have any more time!" I will help out.

Of course you would want your friends to enjoy an MMO that you enjoy playing, and if somebody is stuck in a situation where their enjoyment is hitting a wall, you would want to help out. Ultimately, it would be best for everybody to get along and play together.



It would seem the only kind of "power leveling" Yoshi-P considers "negative" is that done by RMT or others for profit.

I kind of dig this mentality. It's up to the players to decide if they want higher-level help and it allows the devs to focus on end game instead of an arbitrary level grind. Thus producing more fun and challenging content as apposed to just more grind camps.


Edited, Aug 30th 2011 11:37pm by Sephrick
#2 Aug 30 2011 at 9:55 PM Rating: Good
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I have no problem with allowing power-leveling. As long as players can't obtain a qualitative advantage over me at any given level, I don't care if they can go faster. I'm going to benefit from this system on occasion as well, leveling alt classes.

I'm a purist about some things, but this isn't one of them.
#3 Aug 30 2011 at 10:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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If I'm reading this correctly...

First player to attack an enemy earns the right to any items/experience.

If a low level player attacks a high level mob, and the mob is killed by the high level player, there will be an experience penalty.

If a low level player attacks a low level mob, and the mob is killed by the high level player, the low level player will receive full exp.

Well...I used to toss out the occassional heal as a high level player when running through low level areas, now it sounds like we will be able to toss out the occassional attack/nuke as well.

Honestly these revisions could have been a lot worse...since the person being power-leveled has to initiate the first attack in order to receive exp, it's not like you can just /autofollow your way to 50. And it's not like you could effectively be powerleveled from the early 40s on anyway. At that point it would be more efficient to group up instead.

I have to admit I was pretty skeptical at first, but Yoshi-P has convinced me here. I would definitely be willing to tolerate easier powerleveling if it makes targeting easier and opens up the way for larger scale encounters against multiple enemies.

Edited, Aug 30th 2011 10:15pm by akirussan
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#4 Aug 30 2011 at 11:11 PM Rating: Good
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"We plan on implementing end-game content that is extremely difficult"

This is really the only thing there that caught my attention.

Power Leveling...pfft...who cares. Thats a personal thing. If you don't feel well-endowed...go ahead and have someone give you a hand.
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#5 Aug 30 2011 at 11:40 PM Rating: Decent
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Don't care if newbies get powerleveled, but they're not getting into my ls. It's a pain in the *** to guide them through endgame. They have no finesse when it comes to their classes.
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#6 Aug 31 2011 at 12:10 AM Rating: Decent
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Now I'm even more convinced I should start dual boxing.
#7 Aug 31 2011 at 12:19 AM Rating: Decent
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I don't even care about RMT powerleveling. All I care about is that if it's RMT, it needs to be caught, because it contradicts the rule. If the game rule is O.K with RMT, well, go ahead.
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#8 Aug 31 2011 at 2:00 AM Rating: Decent
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Eh... I always avoided being power leveled in FFXI. Though sometimes it was hard to avoid without looking like a jerk. "Oh hey, I didn't mention this before, but we have someone power leveling. Since you're the tank you have to stay! Enjoy!" /sigh

But then if others want to be power leveled, I don't really have an issue with it. It'll become obvious who knows their class and who doesn't pretty quickly.
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#9 Aug 31 2011 at 4:03 AM Rating: Good
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RedGalka wrote:
Don't care if newbies get powerleveled, but they're not getting into my ls. It's a pain in the *** to guide them through endgame. They have no finesse when it comes to their classes.


I feel the same about this issue, although, I wouldn't go as far as not letting them join a LS. That is if they are good and friendly players who care about their class and contribute to the LS.

But it's true that you can tell pretty easy who's been powerleveled the whole time compared to someone who knows what to do in difficult situations because they know their class and put more effort into it.


I'm fine with Yoshidas approach on this matter.
Instead of limiting and restricting players they give us the freedom to play how we want and also the self-responsibility not to abuse the system.

I'm also excited about the "large scale PvE" and "PvP between large numbers of players" content ^^

Edited, Aug 31st 2011 5:45pm by RidingBean
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#10 Aug 31 2011 at 4:38 AM Rating: Excellent
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Maybe I'm too old-fashioned, but I think this new system is a mistake.

MMOs have always been about the journey for me, not the destination. Allowing PLing to be this easy sounds like they're giving up on implementing quality overworld content that will cover the whole leveling experience in favor of end game instanced content.

I'm not really sure how I feel about that, games with little to no content prior to the level cap usually bore me before I ever reach that point. Making it incredibly easy to reach that cap might sound like a good way of fixing that, but powerleveling just feels like cheating to me.

I know it's something that's present in pretty much every MMO in one form or another, but comparing it to FFXI seems a little unfair. Sure it could be done, but the person/party still did all the killing, so it was still time consumming and it did require you to play your job to an extent. Claiming something, watching it be one-shotted, moving on to the next target just feels incredibly lazy and pointless and will breed weak players.

And without some form of block aid, it will likely end up causing grief. What if I'm trying to solo an NM just to test my skill, but I don't want anyone interfering? What will happen to their supposed "strategic positioning" gameplay they tried selling us when the game launched if they implement monsters with directional attacks or AoEs like Fafnir to the overworld? Surely no other linkshell would ever consider sitting on the tail of a dragon and try to make it flail just to wipe the party fighting it...

With people on MMOs usually going for the path of least resistance, I'm afraid of the consequences it'll have on the party nature of the game they've finally managed to implement correctly.

I'll wait and see how it goes, but it's the first new thing they'll be putting in that I'm not sold on at all, and actually afraid it'll hurt more than it'll help down the line.

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#11 Aug 31 2011 at 5:59 AM Rating: Decent
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To me the main thing that makes this understandable is that it's advantageous to level everything to the cap (something that I would have changed). Still, I think it's far from ideal for your producer/director to just throw his hands up and say "Yeah, powerleveling is desgined to be the best way to EXP." If that's the best he can come up working 15 hours a day, I'm not impressed.

I think the experiance gets watered down with the route they've chosen - since they've decided not to put much value in leveling up, they better have interesting and fun things to do at the cap. Considering it's taken them a year to even put Darkhold in, I don't think they're up to the challenge of having a varied, extensive endgame.

They're just following the road that people have suspected.. This is intended to be a casual game. It will never deliver the kind of experiance XI did when you had more than an hour to play.

Edited, Aug 31st 2011 8:01am by Coyohma
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#12 Aug 31 2011 at 7:07 AM Rating: Decent
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Coyohma wrote:
To me the main thing that makes this understandable is that it's advantageous to level everything to the cap (something that I would have changed). Still, I think it's far from ideal for your producer/director to just throw his hands up and say "Yeah, powerleveling is desgined to be the best way to EXP." If that's the best he can come up working 15 hours a day, I'm not impressed.

I think the experiance gets watered down with the route they've chosen - since they've decided not to put much value in leveling up, they better have interesting and fun things to do at the cap. Considering it's taken them a year to even put Darkhold in, I don't think they're up to the challenge of having a varied, extensive endgame.

They're just following the road that people have suspected.. This is intended to be a casual game. It will never deliver the kind of experiance XI did when you had more than an hour to play.

Edited, Aug 31st 2011 8:01am by Coyohma


A classic case of wearing rose tinted spectacles for FFXI!

Having the option of being PL'd to level up quickly is essential in FFXIV if it is to attract new players and convince them to part with their money in the form of monthly subs. If they were hit with character growth of the sort you are eulogising over they would be less inclined to stay. This is even more true in 2011 than it was in say 2006 and it is even more true of console gamers than it is of PC gamers.
SE have to add an option for people to feel like they have a chance of catching up, because they need new players and they need those new players to stick around. If new players came to the game and were faced with a year long grind before they could feel like they had achieved a fully developed character they would just not bother.


Edited, Aug 31st 2011 9:09am by NumptyHunter
#13 Aug 31 2011 at 7:24 AM Rating: Good
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I'll take this version of Power Leveling over Abyssea Leeching any day of the week.

I mean power leveling will ALWAYS exist and the counter-measures to prevent it often hurt legitimate players more. I'm sure my girlfriend would love me to help her level up and this is more like a low level can kind of play with their friends, which to me sounds great.

I was worried, now I'm not. "They aren't getting into my ls.." Well I guess you'll have an empty LS because I can't imagine this not being a normal thing. That's like saying "Any Summoners who Astral Burn won't be playing with me" or "You joined a party with a PL, you're banned from the ls."

you aren't somehow entitled or better for doing it "the hard way"

In fact, I would argue that you were probably power leveled using the "old way" of leve canceling, but someone who gets 200 sp a kill instead of 40k sp for 5 minutes of work is cheating.

Edited, Aug 31st 2011 9:24am by Louiscool
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#14 Aug 31 2011 at 7:31 AM Rating: Good
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I was very skeptical of this new system, but with the way he explained it it sounds good to me. Basically it comes down to personal preference, which he has been preaching a lot on. You want help leveling up, that is your choice, but some linkshells may not be willing to take you if they know you were power leveled. You want to take your own personal time out to PL and not do other content, that is ok ... it is your time and your choice to do so to help someone. You do not want any PL, then you can go solo/duo/trio leves or make a party with no PL ... it may take you longer to level, but you may find the ride is quite enjoyable and you will have a better understanding of how your job/class works. No matter the system, someone will find a way to PL ... as long as it is not for RMT purposes, SE (and myself), are cool with it.
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#15 Aug 31 2011 at 7:39 AM Rating: Decent
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NumptyHunter wrote:
A classic case of wearing rose tinted spectacles for FFXI!

Having the option of being PL'd to level up quickly is essential in FFXIV if it is to attract new players and convince them to part with their money in the form of monthly subs. If they were hit with character growth of the sort you are eulogising over they would be less inclined to stay. This is even more true in 2011 than it was in say 2006 and it is even more true of console gamers than it is of PC gamers.
SE have to add an option for people to feel like they have a chance of catching up, because they need new players and they need those new players to stick around. If new players came to the game and were faced with a year long grind before they could feel like they had achieved a fully developed character they would just not bother.

Essential? Powerleveling is essential to get new (mostly PS3) players to stay? If that's the case, they should just close shop now.

I don't think most PS3 players will even have someone at cap to powerlevel them. So where does that leave your theory?
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#16 Aug 31 2011 at 7:57 AM Rating: Good
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Coyohma wrote:
NumptyHunter wrote:
A classic case of wearing rose tinted spectacles for FFXI!

Having the option of being PL'd to level up quickly is essential in FFXIV if it is to attract new players and convince them to part with their money in the form of monthly subs. If they were hit with character growth of the sort you are eulogising over they would be less inclined to stay. This is even more true in 2011 than it was in say 2006 and it is even more true of console gamers than it is of PC gamers.
SE have to add an option for people to feel like they have a chance of catching up, because they need new players and they need those new players to stick around. If new players came to the game and were faced with a year long grind before they could feel like they had achieved a fully developed character they would just not bother.

Essential? Powerleveling is essential to get new (mostly PS3) players to stay? If that's the case, they should just close shop now.

I don't think most PS3 players will even have someone at cap to powerlevel them. So where does that leave your theory?


His point is valid and I think you are misunderstanding it.

S/he is saying that, from the PS3 player perspective, they are a year behind. What's my motivation if I'm a year behind everyone else? I'm not saying power leveling is essential, a quicker leveling period is.

Anything that will help new players not feel left in the dust is fine by me. I would almost prefer a levelign curve similar to FFXI in that level 55 is actually the halfway point to 75. You get to feel powerful fairly quickly, but the last half is slower.


I don't think this will be some easy mode for players, levels 1-20 are super easy to solo already that I would find it to be more tiresome and annoying to pl someone through there with this system. By then you should be competent enough with your class to know how to play, and if someone wants a hand after that, so be it.

Again, just think of EVERY RMT counter-measure from FFXI. Now think of how they hurt legitmate players just as much:

Fishing and the introduction of Fishing Fatigue
Nerfed fish npc prices
Beast Blood and Bird Blood NPC price nerf
Mass Gardening bans - banning many Real players by accident
Can't fish or garden under level 10
Countless Alchemy items npc sell back prices reduced


In the end, I'm happy they are trying to keep out RMT without punishing the playerbase.
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#17 Aug 31 2011 at 8:03 AM Rating: Decent
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Coyohma wrote:
NumptyHunter wrote:
A classic case of wearing rose tinted spectacles for FFXI!

Having the option of being PL'd to level up quickly is essential in FFXIV if it is to attract new players and convince them to part with their money in the form of monthly subs. If they were hit with character growth of the sort you are eulogising over they would be less inclined to stay. This is even more true in 2011 than it was in say 2006 and it is even more true of console gamers than it is of PC gamers.
SE have to add an option for people to feel like they have a chance of catching up, because they need new players and they need those new players to stick around. If new players came to the game and were faced with a year long grind before they could feel like they had achieved a fully developed character they would just not bother.

Essential? Powerleveling is essential to get new (mostly PS3) players to stay? If that's the case, they should just close shop now.

I don't think most PS3 players will even have someone at cap to powerlevel them. So where does that leave your theory?


Yeah I did bold the word option twice so if you choose to ignore that part then fine but you just end up looking unintelligent.
PS3 players will have each other to PL once they get one class to 50, you seem to forget that in FFXIV you are supposed to level all of them to 50 or you will just end up with a gimped character.
Many people who currently play have friends waiting to play on PS3 so don't make out that no PS3 player will be able to get a PL because its not going to be the case at all, also I can't imagine that a PL will insist on PL'ing just one guy on his own, it's far more likely he/she will be PL'ing a whole party on lowbies.

God forbid anyone who would want to help low level people new to the game, we can't have that now can we!
No lets put all the new players off so they quit and FFXIV goes down the pan, great idea!
Helping new players is both personally rewarding and also beneficial to the community as a whole, if you can't see that then thats very sad.
#18 Aug 31 2011 at 8:11 AM Rating: Excellent
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The system isn't essential to the survival of the game per se, but it certainly will help retention in the long haul. As several of us have stated in response to recent dev decisions, all of these changes are making things more friendly for newer players starting out, i.e. PS3 release being around the bend.

I am not necessarily a proponent of PL'ing, but in this case, it's a lesser of two evils situation...and really, if XP and loot are going to remain in control of the attacking PT/soloer, then it will help more than hurt. I'm sure there will be definitive countermeasures put into place not far in the future to help thwart RMT, etc., just have to wait and see how this all shakes out.

We also have no idea how powerful or weak individual classes are going to become after stat revisions next update...it might be that some jobs are in need of an extra hand until everything is tweaked.
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#19 Aug 31 2011 at 8:15 AM Rating: Good
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Coyohma wrote:
I don't think most PS3 players will even have someone at cap to powerlevel them. So where does that leave your theory?

They'll be playing on the same servers as PC players, why wouldn't they be able to find anyone at cap? There are quite a few people at cap now and sure to be more by the time PS3 is released. Your statement doesn't make sense.
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#20 Aug 31 2011 at 8:17 AM Rating: Good
Considering that the game only currently has two dungeons, I think the most interesting thing was that he claimed that such a large portion of future content will be instanced. That seems interesting.
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#21 Aug 31 2011 at 8:26 AM Rating: Good
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Not sure how much of PL'ing you all have tried to date. Currently you can solo to 20 quite easily, no need for a PL. 20-35 are the prime PL levels as leves slow down and not many people party in that range, at least not on my server. 35+ PL is not very fast xp as the person doing the PL has to kill tougher mobs, thus making xp flow slower. 35+ it is actually faster to pick up r40 leves and sp grind parties than to PL. Of course that is how it is now, that may change with this update, but I still cant't see getting a PL to 50
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#22 Aug 31 2011 at 8:27 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm aware of the point being made. Do you really think it's fun to poke a mob for no damage, and then have a 50 one-shot it? Over ad nauseam. This is what is essential to retain new players?

That is what I disagreed with. That is not essential, it's not even close. If you really want PS3 players to feel like they can catch up, do away with the idea that you need every class at 50 to play your class at its fullest (like I've mentioned).

@Filth, do you really think the players at 50 now will exist solely to PL the new PS3 players? I haven't been assigned to anyone yet, so unless they require all 50s to PL new players, most will not be leveling via powerleveler. Even if they did make us all PL new players, I think they're hoping for a playerbase exceeding 40k.

Edited, Aug 31st 2011 10:35am by Coyohma
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#23 Aug 31 2011 at 8:56 AM Rating: Decent
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I for one thing support that you could get levels through power leveling. Don't feel like leveling up an unpopular class that really doesn't excel at soloing? Get someone to power level it for you. That's a lot safer than handing your account information to other people so they can level up the character for you. People who want to power level... well they'll power level.

I at least find MMORPGs to be incredibly slow to begin your adventure where you start having fun. I don't find leveling up the first levels to be very exciting since there's not much going on. One of the reasons why I don't play WoW for example is that my character is level 61, not 85 and most people say that the actual game begins at endgame while the rest remains like a barren land. In fact this just doesn't just involve WoW, this involve the other MMORPGs I've played like AION, Age Of Conan and Star Wars Galaxies. They all force you to sink countless of hours leveling up and I really don't need to spend 200 hours to learn how tanking works, I already learned that inside out on FFXI. It's things like that which holds me away from testing other MMORPGs because they're all notorious for making you fight crabs for countless of hours.

In fact, I'm having more fun being able to play more jobs on FFXI thanks to the power leveling system known as "Fell Cleaving".
#24 Aug 31 2011 at 8:59 AM Rating: Excellent
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I'm not sure where people are getting the idea the a R50 has to be the one PL someone. It could be a R35 PL a lower R1-10 player if they choose to. This change with by no means make PL essential for players to play the game. It currently is very easy to solo from 1-20. The ability to PL someone is only an option like many have said. There's nothing wrong with someone having the option is there? Yeah they may have gotten to the same point you did much more quickly, but hey does it make your life any more difficult? No. So stop crying about it. Think of it this way. If you leveled your class up the slow way and someone else leveled up by PL, who do you think will be a better player? The person who leveled slowly. They learned how to play their job as they grew in level. The people who know how to play their job in a way that will benefit a party will certainly get more party invites for dungeons and future content. Remember future content will be extremely difficult in Yoshida's words. My point is, it will be better to level slowly and take the time to learn how to do your job, but there's also nothing wrong with having the option for people to be PL. This allows players who do come in late/left early and come back to get to a point to where they can play with their friends who have played for a long while.

With people complaining that it's not ok to let people level faster with some help, were you around when the game was first released? Think about the pace of leveling now compared to what it was when the game was first released. From personal experience, as an archer right after launch, it wasn't uncommon for me to join grind parties and find myself not getting any sp after the kills. People claimed they would get 500 sp/kill, but I just wasn't seeing it b/c archers just didn't have the accuracy to land as many blows than other jobs, thus getting less sp. My point is, I'm a little jealous that those coming around now are leveling much faster than I did and if those players are complaining b/c it makes the newer players after them level faster than they do then think about my situation. It sucks yes, but we all know they are making massive changes to the game. Anything and everything in the game is subject to change. We all play knowing this.
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#25 Aug 31 2011 at 9:38 AM Rating: Good
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Ugh I remember starting out pgl in 15 man eft parties getting lucky to get 100 sp a kill, and commonly getting 0 sp per kill ... where mages would get 500 a kill and would ***** if you moved out of AoE damage abilities because then they couldn't heal you for sp. The system now is much much better and I am confident the changes will work out. The community itself will ultimately determine how this pans out IMO.
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#26 Aug 31 2011 at 10:00 AM Rating: Good
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Coyohma wrote:
I'm aware of the point being made. Do you really think it's fun to poke a mob for no damage, and then have a 50 one-shot it? Over ad nauseam. This is what is essential to retain new players?


So you're saying you didn't read the OP, just the title?

that Giant wall of text you skipped over wrote:

I will provide an example involving soloing that is easy to understand. (Power leveling a party involving multiple levels is complicated) Suppose you attack a level 50 monster with your level 1 character. If a level 50 character nearby kills the level 50 monster, the skill points will be given to the level 1 character.

However, the gap between your level 1 character and the level 50 monster is too large, so the “defeating a higher rank monster bonus” will be significantly reduced. The experience points earned by the level 1 character will be adjusted quite drastically.

Suppose you attack a level 3 monster with your level 1 character and a level 50 character nearby kills the level 3 monster. The level 3 monster is appropriate for a level 1 character, so there will be no major drastic loss in experience points.



Edited, Aug 31st 2011 12:00pm by Louiscool

Edited, Aug 31st 2011 12:01pm by Louiscool
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#27 Aug 31 2011 at 10:08 AM Rating: Decent
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Louis, I'm drunk, and I still think between the two of us I'm the one understanding it correctly, haha. What you've bolded isn't the most relevant part. The third paragraph is.

To be crystal clear, when I say "no damage," I mean "no significant damage." Hitting for 30 when your PL took care of the other 1,000 HP is basically nothing.

Edited, Aug 31st 2011 12:21pm by Coyohma
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#28 Aug 31 2011 at 10:32 AM Rating: Decent
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Coyohma wrote:
@Filth, do you really think the players at 50 now will exist solely to PL the new PS3 players?

This question is ridiculous and doesn't even deserve a response.
Coyohma wrote:
I haven't been assigned to anyone yet, so unless they require all 50s to PL new players, most will not be leveling via powerleveler.

In order to engage in a discussion about powerleveling, you should first try to understand what it is and how it works.

Powerleveling is the use of an outside player to speed up your leveling process. It doesn't require anyone being level 50. It takes a level 25 player the same amount of time it takes a level 50 player to one-shot a level 1 mob. The powerleveler doesn't really even have to touch the mob at all. If you can receive a heal from someone, even someone who is LOWER level than you are, it speeds up the leveling process.

The topic really isn't even about powerleveling. The only people really concerned with PL are the players. There are people who don't like the fact that it has the potential to be abused. Yoshi doesn't expect you to powerlevel everyone. If you really believe this then you should remove the bag from your head and let some oxygen flow to your brain.

If you have to make changes to your game design which allow low level players to level faster(and upset a few players), but also allow you the freedom to design epic large scale battle content(and please the majority), what would you do? He's just saying that in the bigger picture of future content, it's a sacrifice that needs to be made for the greater good.


Edited, Aug 31st 2011 12:42pm by FilthMcNasty
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#29 Aug 31 2011 at 11:07 AM Rating: Decent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
This question is ridiculous and doesn't even deserve a response.

As such is logic that follows.. illogic!

To recap, I said most PS3ers will not be PL'd, citing a lack of people willing to powerlevel (mostly strangers with little to no gil). You said we'd be on the same servers, there are plenty of high level players now, etc.. Which frankly doesn't really address the point I'd made. So, I tried a bit of hyperbole to try to get my point across. Savvy?

FilthMcNasty wrote:
If you have to make changes to your game design which allow low level players to level faster(and upset a few players), but also allow you the freedom to design epic large scale battle content(and please the majority), what would you do? He's just saying that in the bigger picture of future content, it's a sacrifice that needs to be made for the greater good.

What would I do? I would realize this is the time for serious changes and overhauls. If you want to allow players to get to the cap faster, you can.. I don't know, lower the EXP required to get to the cap? Or! Or.. Increase the EXP gained? How about both?! ****, if you're feeling ambitious you could even give players some better avenues to gain EXP.

I sort of can't believe you asked that question. And no, a powerlevel-friendly system is not a prerequisite to "epic large scale battle content."
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#30 Aug 31 2011 at 11:15 AM Rating: Excellent
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leveling to cap has anyways been the easiest and most basic/straightforward form of character advancement. I don't really love the system, but I could care less about it. In effect its not much different than out of party healing was, or abyssea leaching, or clearing low level dungeons for people, only this may end up being faster.
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#31 Aug 31 2011 at 11:38 AM Rating: Good
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Coyohma wrote:
Louis, I'm drunk, and I still think between the two of us I'm the one understanding it correctly, haha. What you've bolded isn't the most relevant part. The third paragraph is.

To be crystal clear, when I say "no damage," I mean "no significant damage." Hitting for 30 when your PL took care of the other 1,000 HP is basically nothing.

Edited, Aug 31st 2011 12:21pm by Coyohma


What level do you think these level 1's will be fighting without getting one-shot themselves?

I think you're forgetting the major part: You have to make the first hit. A level 35 antling can one-shot R20 character easily. So how much advantage will this system give plers?


Additionally, I ask the age-old question:

Why do you care how someone else plays? It does not effect you. You are not paying their monthly subscription (In the future obviously). It's just grumpy people who feel others should suffer because they suffered.

You can choose to ignore it entirely, your experience is no different or lessened by it.

This is like old white men passing laws that *** people can't marry. They won't be marrying you unless you want them to.
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#32 Aug 31 2011 at 11:47 AM Rating: Decent
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Mobs ten levels over the player don't one-shot them. It's as simple as that.

I don't agree that it does not effect me. I could go into the reasons, but it doesn't really matter.

I still, why I don't know, want this game to become respectable. If the best way to EXP is having a higher level kill your mobs for you, I think that's unfortunate. I'm not saying the sky is falling, I'm just saying on this topic, I think there is a better system out there than this.

Edited, Aug 31st 2011 1:48pm by Coyohma
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#33 Aug 31 2011 at 11:51 AM Rating: Good
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Just say it:

"I have 6+ rank 50s and I want people recognize me for that. If leveling is easier or faster, it won't be impressive anymore"

How could someone hate the game so much and play it that much? (Your lodestone says it all.)


It doesn't effect you. You just think it does.

Edited, Aug 31st 2011 1:52pm by Louiscool
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#34 Aug 31 2011 at 11:53 AM Rating: Decent
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I've repeatedly said that if I had the power, I would end the absurd "leveling everything to cap is necessary to be the best." That cuts far deeper at the time I've spent in XIV than anything else suggested.

By the way, when I said it does effect "me," I wasn't even really referencing myself. More the players who don't want to have their mobs killed for them. It effects them in relation to the players who are happy with it. How? Well, who would get the LS invite? The person with three 50s or one? Who would be the better player, LS invites or not?

Edited, Aug 31st 2011 2:05pm by Coyohma
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#35 Aug 31 2011 at 12:05 PM Rating: Decent
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Coyohma wrote:
To recap, I said most PS3ers will not be PL'd, citing a lack of people willing to powerlevel (mostly strangers with little to no gil).

Actually, what you said was...
Coyohma wrote:
I don't think most PS3 players will even have someone at cap to powerlevel them.

No mention of motivation, money or otherwise. If you're going to embellish your posts, at least take the time to go and edit them to make it look like you actually said what you think you said.

Coyohma wrote:
If you want to allow players to get to the cap faster, you can..

Again, completely missing the point. Perhaps you got caught up in the title of this post. Yoshi's post is NOT ABOUT LEVELING. It's not about powerleveling, leveling or how many players will be willing to powerlevel people. Excuse the emphasis, but mayhaps it will seep through your skull this time.

This is about adjustments to claiming and engaging mobs. The reason is clear to me, but you don't seem to understand it. Lets break it down...

Yoshi wrote:
We decided that claiming would become a troublesome spec in the future development of the game. When considering large scale PvE content involving multiple parties and PvP between large numbers of players, the spec that claiming occurs on a 1:1 basis becomes a nuisance.

It is easier to create a system around large scale battles and then restrict it when players are in smaller groups or solo then it is to create 3 different systems for each. Savvy?

Yoshi wrote:
Forcing out power leveling
It is not easy to distinguish whether the above actions are an act of good will or serve the purpose of RMT or leveling up other characters for money.
One thing we would like to avoid all costs is EXP stealing by bots.

Translation: If it doesn't involve RMT and doesn't detract from the enjoyment of other players, I don't ******* care how long it takes you to level up.

Yoshi wrote:
We plan on implementing end-game content that is extremely difficult, so if assistance is necessary to reach this point I believe that it should be OK for players to help each other out, as long as there are players who are willing to help out.

Translation: Absolute Virtue will be waiting to power de-level you once you reach the cap so enjoy it while you can ********

Coyohma wrote:
And no, a powerlevel-friendly system is not a prerequisite to "epic large scale battle content."

You're absolutely right. It's a byproduct of a change to the system that supports endgame, the meat of the content. Sort of like your ignorant posts are a byproduct of your poor comprehension.

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Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#36 Aug 31 2011 at 12:11 PM Rating: Decent
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I assumed you would imagine new PS3 players would largely be strangers and not have much gil. Forgive me, I assumed too much.. Does this logic now change your view? If not, what was your point?

As far as the rest, it's a waste of time at this point. PM me if you really want me to respond.
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#37 Aug 31 2011 at 12:15 PM Rating: Decent
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Unless you are more easily able to comprehend PMs, it's just gonna whistle over your head like it does out here in the open.
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Rinsui wrote:
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HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#38 Aug 31 2011 at 12:29 PM Rating: Good
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I think the difference of opinion here is because of different expectations. We're being told "To make claiming easier for us to work with, we're going into this knowing it will be abused by PL."

You (opposite opinion in general) say that's a worthy sacrifice, if not a good thing. I say it's unfortunate, and think there's a better way to go about it. Agree to disagree I guess.
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#39 Aug 31 2011 at 12:44 PM Rating: Excellent
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Powerleveling is already in and working great --- they're actually nerfing it a bit, as the PLer will have to hunt enemies closer to the PLee, instead of killing anything that's 10 or more ranks above.

In the current state of the game, nothing really levels faster than a lowbie grouped with a rank50 that's killing rank30-50 mobs.

I'm fine with that, because if a high level player wants to spend his time helping a friend catch up to him, then you have 2 players working on one player's character progression, essentially a good thing for them.
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#40 Aug 31 2011 at 12:57 PM Rating: Good
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It certainly has been, and ****, I've PL'd friends just as I've failed my leves. Like most people I'll go with whatever the best EXP is, as long as it's within the rules. My issue was more about how, given time and resources to make sweeping revisions, they're forcing this compromise on their players instead of cleaning it up.

Just my opinion; a bunch are clearly fine with it, so perhaps they don't see it as a compromise. Personally if the concern is a high level player helping a lower level "catch up," I would rather see a level-sync system put in place. They're already concerned about solo and small groups -that'd be a great situation to duo.

Edited, Aug 31st 2011 3:07pm by Coyohma
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#41 Aug 31 2011 at 1:24 PM Rating: Decent
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Coyohma wrote:
We're being told "To make claiming easier for us to work with, we're going into this knowing it will be abused by PL."

Word of advice... don't use quotation marks unless making a direct quote. What you have here is a horribly distorted view of what Yoshi is actually saying. Not a good habit to be in. I'll hold you to your exact words because I expect you to take mine in context.

Coyohma wrote:
You (opposite opinion in general) say that's a worthy sacrifice, if not a good thing.

Leveling at least from 1-20 is something that is quick and painless anyway. A lot of the exp from those levels comes in the form of guildleve/behest bonuses and the new claim mechanics DO NOT carry over there. You sacrifice the exp and gil bonuses granted from guildleve and behest for faster kills in a straight grind. In addition, there will be increased exp bonuses for 'linked mobs' which these systems also benefit from. What's the big deal? People could get PL before these changes go live anyway.

Coyohma wrote:
I say it's unfortunate, and think there's a better way to go about it.

The problem with your suggestion is that it doesn't address the issue. It doesn't even acknowledge the issue...
Coyohma wrote:
If you want to allow players to get to the cap faster...

That is not the purpose of these changes, this is...
Yoshi wrote:
We decided to remove the claiming system from FFXIV because we decided that claiming would become a troublesome spec in the future development of the game. When considering large scale PvE content involving multiple parties and PvP between large numbers of players, the spec that claiming occurs on a 1:1 basis becomes a nuisance.

Again, being able to get faster exp is a byproduct of having a better endgame in this case, not it's purpose.

I'm not gonna agree to disagree here. You lost this argument pretty clearly, but you can redeem yourself by clicking the link in the OP and actually reading what this letter from Yoshi is in response to. /cfh if you need it :P






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Rinsui wrote:
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HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#42 Aug 31 2011 at 2:01 PM Rating: Decent
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I really don't want to respond again and continue to get into this, but I've been nice about one thing you just mentioned.

Better endgame? So this targetting issue is all for endgame.. Why not require something like, a certain percentage of damage dealt to then get EXP? You can take care of classes that don't DD by judging what they do (cures, buffs, whatever), and only require such contributions if there's a player X levels above the rest (out of range or way out of range). That cripples powerleveling while not hurting endgame, as endgame players don't need EXP.

I've seen "large scale PvE content involving multiple parties" work fine with Besieged, Campaign, etc.. There is no reason it can't work here - however the people working on the game don't want to do the work to have both a well-functioning claim system and avoid much of their game being powerleveled.

Edited to fix 2nd paragraph, very tired.

Edited, Aug 31st 2011 4:14pm by Coyohma
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#43 Aug 31 2011 at 2:17 PM Rating: Good
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Coyohma wrote:
So this targetting issue is all for endgame.. Why not simply have the initial claim be the only person/party to gain EXP from the mob? That cripples powerleveling while not hurting endgame, as endgame players don't need EXP.


Official Forum Post wrote:
Claiming and Engaging Enemies

Players will be able to attack any enemy*. However, only the player (or party that the player is in) that initiates the first attack on the enemy will earn the rewards.

That is exactly how it is going to work. Read the @#%^ing post!

Coyohma wrote:
endgame players don't need EXP

No S#!T! Exactly why the changes they are implementing conflict with gaining experience points. If you want people to have an epic, large scale endgame experience, you don't build your battle system and it's major functions around the idea that people will always be leveling up solo. Think about it. Don't say anything, just think about it.

Edited, Aug 31st 2011 4:19pm by FilthMcNasty
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#44 Aug 31 2011 at 2:36 PM Rating: Good
If I understand this correctly, it is the end of having to avoid damaging unclaimed mobs.

At first glance it seems too easy this way. Other players PL'ing undercuts the feeling of acomplishment that comes from leveling up. Having to struggle to perform well to level up efficiently teaches players to play their job correctly, no?

On the other hand, as mentioned above, PL is already available. It still has no effect on leveling 40-45+, and that will remain true. You will still have to earn your R45-50 like everyone else, which is significant.

Bring it on.
#45 Aug 31 2011 at 3:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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Well, actually, as I think about it, the only really interesting thing here is the fact that now combat classes can be power-leveled very easily, but it will remain difficult for crafters and gatherers to level. Not necessarily bad, or game-breaking, but just an interesting consideration.
#46 Aug 31 2011 at 3:07 PM Rating: Excellent
Coyohma wrote:
I really don't want to respond again and continue to get into this,
Then don't.
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#47 Aug 31 2011 at 8:20 PM Rating: Default
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RamseySylph wrote:
Well, actually, as I think about it, the only really interesting thing here is the fact that now combat classes can be power-leveled very easily, but it will remain difficult for crafters and gatherers to level. Not necessarily bad, or game-breaking, but just an interesting consideration.

Already tested, but non-combat classes don't get SP by having combat classes kill stuff.
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#48 Aug 31 2011 at 8:25 PM Rating: Good
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Docent42 wrote:
RamseySylph wrote:
Well, actually, as I think about it, the only really interesting thing here is the fact that now combat classes can be power-leveled very easily, but it will remain difficult for crafters and gatherers to level. Not necessarily bad, or game-breaking, but just an interesting consideration.

Already tested, but non-combat classes don't get SP by having combat classes kill stuff.


That's what I was getting at, combat classes will have an easy out for leveling. Non-combat classes will not.
#49 Sep 01 2011 at 12:35 AM Rating: Excellent
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RamseySylph wrote:
That's what I was getting at, combat classes will have an easy out for leveling. Non-combat classes will not.

Right. Brainfart, I must have read that completely wrong, not sure how that even happened.
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#50 Sep 01 2011 at 6:28 AM Rating: Good
I would be fine with this is there was skill ups like in FFXI. At least then you could tell whether or not that Rank 50 Archer was legit, or just PL'd to 50 in a week... he may look like a Rank 50 Archer, but do you have Multishot? Huh? Do you? LOL!

Edit: Defaulted?! Really? So let me get this straight, you would PREFER to have capped party members that have no idea wtf they are doing in your dungeon runs, nm fights, and endgame missions??? I don't know about you, but I actually want competent people grouping up with me. Not some random noobie that got PL'd and just started playing the game two weeks ago, running around at level 50 asking "how do I get to Camp Dragonhead", or "how do I repair my gear"?

Edited, Sep 1st 2011 10:18am by StateAlchemist
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#51 Sep 01 2011 at 6:58 AM Rating: Good
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This will be an unpopular statement:

Can we stop pretending that DoL/DoH are actual classes? It's silly. I know this is how the game was sold but it's not how it's implemented.

Crafting is Crafting. Gathering is Gathering. The game centers around fighting, and that's where 90% of content is and will be.
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