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Claiming System Redux: Yoshida is cool with power levelingFollow

#52 Sep 01 2011 at 7:59 AM Rating: Decent
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StateAlchemist the Eccentric wrote:
I would be fine with this is there was skill ups like in FFXI. At least then you could tell whether or not that Rank 50 Archer was legit, or just PL'd to 50 in a week... he may look like a Rank 50 Archer, but do you have Multishot? Huh? Do you? LOL!


Yes thats right the existence of PL'ing will mean lots of people will be running around gimped with just one 50...
Allowing PL'ing will have the opposite effect, it will increase the likelyhood that people will have multiple 50's and all available skills.

#53 Sep 01 2011 at 8:13 AM Rating: Excellent
NumptyHunter wrote:
StateAlchemist the Eccentric wrote:
I would be fine with this is there was skill ups like in FFXI. At least then you could tell whether or not that Rank 50 Archer was legit, or just PL'd to 50 in a week... he may look like a Rank 50 Archer, but do you have Multishot? Huh? Do you? LOL!


Yes thats right the existence of PL'ing will mean lots of people will be running around gimped with just one 50...
Allowing PL'ing will have the opposite effect, it will increase the likelyhood that people will have multiple 50's and all available skills.


But it doesn't change the fact that a lot of people will not have abilities from guild marks. At least, not at first. A level 50 even with all abilities at thier disposal is useless, unless experienced in when to use them, how to use them, and what is most effective in a given situation. Something that only comes from either a) memorizing a lot of guides online, or b) experience in doing such things and learning as you level. That is something getting PL'd will probably not teach you.

Edited, Sep 1st 2011 11:35am by StateAlchemist
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#54 Sep 01 2011 at 8:36 AM Rating: Default
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StateAlchemist the Eccentric wrote:
NumptyHunter wrote:
StateAlchemist the Eccentric wrote:
I would be fine with this is there was skill ups like in FFXI. At least then you could tell whether or not that Rank 50 Archer was legit, or just PL'd to 50 in a week... he may look like a Rank 50 Archer, but do you have Multishot? Huh? Do you? LOL!


Yes thats right the existence of PL'ing will mean lots of people will be running around gimped with just one 50...
Allowing PL'ing will have the opposite effect, it will increase the likelyhood that people will have multiple 50's and all available skills.


But it doesn't change the fact that a lot of people will not have abilities from guild marks. At least, not at first. A level 50 even with all abilities at thier disposal is useless, unless experienced in when to use them, how to use them, and what is most effective in a given situation. Something that only comes from either a) memorizing a lot of guides online, or b) experience in doing such things and learning as you level. That is something getting PL'd will never teach you.


A lot of people? Did your crystal ball tell you that?
It's a valid concern for the way the game is right now, but who knows what is going to happen after the implementation of jobs because everything is going to change and there really is no second guessing it and no point in trying.
I just think you are being overly pessimistic for the sake of it.

Edited, Sep 1st 2011 10:37am by NumptyHunter

Edited, Sep 1st 2011 10:38am by NumptyHunter
#55 Sep 01 2011 at 8:40 AM Rating: Excellent
NumptyHunter wrote:
A lot of people? Did your crystal ball tell you that?


I was talking about a lot of people (who get power leveled). They will be focused on the PLing and not diverting off to get guild marks until later. Same as it was in FFXI, people got PL'd to cap then went back and worried about the skill ups. It's not hard to predict a recurring trend. I am not being pessimistic, just realistic. It's bound to happen, and people are bound to complain about unskilled capped players when the time comes.
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#56 Sep 01 2011 at 8:46 AM Rating: Decent
Seems af if this thread has been karma bombed.

I'm not sure what anyone could be that upset over. For the most part, everyone is in agreement that this will not adversly affect them personally.
#57 Sep 01 2011 at 9:10 AM Rating: Excellent
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I seem to be in the minority as being a person who likes exp grind parties, but if there's ever a party search feature and thus lots of grind parties I don't like how a high level PL would basically remove all aspects of gameplay from the party. As a WHM and PLD I didn't like healer PLs in FFXI, and now in FFXIV PLs will be able to take away the task of DDing too. All you need is a puller and the rest of the party can go afk while the PL kills everything. How lame is that?
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#58 Sep 01 2011 at 9:18 AM Rating: Good
TauuOfSiren wrote:
I seem to be in the minority as being a person who likes exp grind parties, but if there's ever a party search feature and thus lots of grind parties I don't like how a high level PL would basically remove all aspects of gameplay from the party. As a WHM and PLD I didn't like healer PLs in FFXI, and now in FFXIV PLs will be able to take away the task of DDing too. All you need is a puller and the rest of the party can go afk while the PL kills everything. How lame is that?


Healing PLs were fine (in my opinion) when it allowed the party to fight IT++ mobs that gave way more XP/hr then whatever we could have done alone. Now that a PL can actually fight the mob instead of just heal...I see your point. I think I will probably stay away from most PL opportunities unless it's still interesting. I don't have much desire to AFK level in a group. I can understand Yoshi-P's viewpoint of how it is nice because then you can get your friends caught up with you to be able to have fun together, but it is so situational, seems like more abuse could come from it then legitimate (albeit unnecessary) use.
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#59 Sep 01 2011 at 9:21 AM Rating: Default
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StateAlchemist the Eccentric wrote:
NumptyHunter wrote:
A lot of people? Did your crystal ball tell you that?


I was talking about a lot of people (who get power leveled). They will be focused on the PLing and not diverting off to get guild marks until later. Same as it was in FFXI, people got PL'd to cap then went back and worried about the skill ups. It's not hard to predict a recurring trend. I am not being pessimistic, just realistic. It's bound to happen, and people are bound to complain about unskilled capped players when the time comes.


You are talking about what may happen to some players and making it sound like everyone will do that, I just don't agree that the majority will just ignore guild marks, thats if they even exist in the same form as they do now after jobs are implemented.
Most people want the best character they can, they won't be running around at endgame all gimped and if they try they won't get in any good ls. For the most part what does it matter anyway? So they grew their character a bit back to front but they got there in the end, no biggie, they still got there and in a bit less time due to some PL'ing at low levels.
You did mention before about not learning your role due to being PL'd but this is not true because at endgame you learn your role once you get there and experience the content. Grinding at low levels teaches you nothing about how to be a good player at endgame that is worthwhile or that you couldn't pick up in a few days anyway.
#60 Sep 01 2011 at 9:33 AM Rating: Good
NumptyHunter wrote:
Most people want the best character they can, they won't be running around at endgame all gimped and if they try they won't get in any good ls. ... You did mention before about not learning your role due to being PL'd but this is not true because at endgame you learn your role once you get there and experience the content. Grinding at low levels teaches you nothing about how to be a good player at endgame that is worthwhile or that you couldn't pick up in a few days anyway.


How many MMOs have you played? Having a bunch of worthless people running around gimped at endgame is very common place. And as far as learning a job in a few days? There are basic concepts to a job that some people can't learn in a month, or a year. Like in FFXI, some summoners had someone just kill the avatars for them to get all their summons, when they could have done the soloable version of the fight instead. Later on they don't know how to triple 2-hour because they never learn by doing it in the solo fights to get their summons. There are plenty more examples that I am sure someone more experienced in MMOs then I am, could give you.

And to clarify, I didn't say everyone. All-inclusive statements are usually false by nature. (Notice I said 'usually'.)

Edited, Sep 1st 2011 11:34am by StateAlchemist

Edited, Sep 1st 2011 11:35am by StateAlchemist
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#61 Sep 01 2011 at 9:55 AM Rating: Default
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StateAlchemist the Eccentric wrote:
NumptyHunter wrote:
Most people want the best character they can, they won't be running around at endgame all gimped and if they try they won't get in any good ls. ... You did mention before about not learning your role due to being PL'd but this is not true because at endgame you learn your role once you get there and experience the content. Grinding at low levels teaches you nothing about how to be a good player at endgame that is worthwhile or that you couldn't pick up in a few days anyway.


How many MMOs have you played? Having a bunch of worthless people running around gimped at endgame is very common place. And as far as learning a job in a few days? There are basic concepts to a job that some people can't learn in a month, or a year. Like in FFXI, some summoners had someone just kill the avatars for them to get all their summons, when they could have done the soloable version of the fight instead. Later on they don't know how to triple 2-hour because they never learn by doing it in the solo fights to get their summons. There are plenty more examples that I am sure someone more experienced in MMOs then I am, could give you.

And to clarify, I didn't say everyone. All-inclusive statements are usually false by nature. (Notice I said 'usually'.)

Edited, Sep 1st 2011 11:34am by StateAlchemist

Edited, Sep 1st 2011 11:35am by StateAlchemist


You don't have to associate with those people, thats what ls are for, to hang out/group with people like you and not some random idiots, if your ls is full of random idiots then leave and join another or start your own so you can implement some quality control, its not hard (well ls admin tools aside lol!).
Worthless gimped people are very rare in a good ls especially a good endgame ls.
#62 Sep 01 2011 at 11:49 AM Rating: Excellent
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I'm okay with power leveling but the speed this is going to allow lower ranks to level up will be too much. If i can level up my friends 10x faster then they can solo or party why would the not just wait for me to help them? Cause soloing 10 hours in 1 day as opposed to just waiting for the 1 hour where i can help them...

I don't like how high and mighty yoshi-p is about how "next gen" this game is. FFXIV isn't much farther along then EQ, same with wow. Until MMO's stop clinging to numbers and systematic role-and-party based combat a lot of old rules are still going to apply.
#63 Sep 01 2011 at 12:18 PM Rating: Excellent
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Louiscool wrote:
This will be an unpopular statement:

Can we stop pretending that DoL/DoH are actual classes? It's silly. I know this is how the game was sold but it's not how it's implemented.

Crafting is Crafting. Gathering is Gathering. The game centers around fighting, and that's where 90% of content is and will be.



There's a lot of people who are playing that are primarily focused on enjoying the content for DoH and DoL. Just because the dev team missed the mark doesn't mean we should just lay down and die. The dev team missed the mark on a lot of things, like fun, not-filled-with-game-ruining-bugs combat, but would you have said "I know this is an unpopular statement, but combat just isn't fun, and there's no reason it should be, I know that's the way the game was sold, but sorry!"
#64 Sep 01 2011 at 12:20 PM Rating: Good
RamseySylph wrote:
There's a lot of people who are playing that are primarily focused on enjoying the content for DoH and DoL.


Me for one. And I have plenty to do. However once I reach cap for all DoH/L and have all abilities etc...if there is nothing to do but make money...well then I guess I will have an easy time leveling my other classes that I left untouched. Would I like to see some really awesome and unique content for DoH/L. Sure. But I can wait. For now.
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#65 Sep 01 2011 at 1:39 PM Rating: Good
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Statealchemist, keep in mind I did not rate you down but, they tried a different kind of skill up system at launch that was horrid. Now, if they switched to jobs + skill ups people would complain it is too much like ffxi. I think they are moving in the right direction with this.

People tend to forget that pl'ing happens now, and it is IMO easier to do right now. Throw a high rank in the party and duo with whomever you want to PL since the sp hit is not that big. It really is not all that reasonable to PL to cap in this game either. Most PL can go up to 35 (tops). At that point it is easier to do higher rank leves or grind parties. Not sure why people think this will kill grind parties. PL is easy now, yet I see grind parties for 35+ commonly. People who will PL will, and those that don't want to won't. Yoshi is aware of this, and doesn't mind as long as you aren't doing it for RMT purposes.

Edited, Sep 1st 2011 2:40pm by UnicornBonesaw
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#66 Sep 01 2011 at 2:24 PM Rating: Decent
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RamseySylph wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
This will be an unpopular statement:

Can we stop pretending that DoL/DoH are actual classes? It's silly. I know this is how the game was sold but it's not how it's implemented.

Crafting is Crafting. Gathering is Gathering. The game centers around fighting, and that's where 90% of content is and will be.


There's a lot of people who are playing that are primarily focused on enjoying the content for DoH and DoL. Just because the dev team missed the mark doesn't mean we should just lay down and die. The dev team missed the mark on a lot of things, like fun, not-filled-with-game-ruining-bugs combat, but would you have said "I know this is an unpopular statement, but combat just isn't fun, and there's no reason it should be, I know that's the way the game was sold, but sorry!"


To each their own, but I believe you are mistaking all these people enjoying crafting for bots. Crafting and harvesting have a few quests, but no endgame, so the only purpose of them is to either A) make money or B) gear DoW and DoM classes.

A lot of people enjoy crafting in other games as well. I'm not saying to remove crafting, but imagine if this game ONLY had Land and Hand. Who would you craft for? What exciting content do you have? Why are you even leveling?


The second bolded comment confuses me. Combat is surprisingly fun right now, just ask the players who don't sit around in Ul'Dah all day pressing enter.
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#67 Sep 01 2011 at 2:52 PM Rating: Good
Louiscool wrote:
imagine if this game ONLY had Land and Hand. Who would you craft for? What exciting content do you have? Why are you even leveling?


There are entire MMOs that revolve around Crafting, not combat. I would reckon asking one of their game developers would give you the best response.

However let me redirect you in the meantime to this thread here, which discusses possible additions to FFXIV that could really make DoH/L classes shine as a "main".
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#68 Sep 01 2011 at 3:05 PM Rating: Good
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Louiscool wrote:
RamseySylph wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
This will be an unpopular statement:

Can we stop pretending that DoL/DoH are actual classes? It's silly. I know this is how the game was sold but it's not how it's implemented.

Crafting is Crafting. Gathering is Gathering. The game centers around fighting, and that's where 90% of content is and will be.


There's a lot of people who are playing that are primarily focused on enjoying the content for DoH and DoL. Just because the dev team missed the mark doesn't mean we should just lay down and die. The dev team missed the mark on a lot of things, like fun, not-filled-with-game-ruining-bugs combat, but would you have said "I know this is an unpopular statement, but combat just isn't fun, and there's no reason it should be, I know that's the way the game was sold, but sorry!"


To each their own, but I believe you are mistaking all these people enjoying crafting for bots. Crafting and harvesting have a few quests, but no endgame, so the only purpose of them is to either A) make money or B) gear DoW and DoM classes.

A lot of people enjoy crafting in other games as well. I'm not saying to remove crafting, but imagine if this game ONLY had Land and Hand. Who would you craft for? What exciting content do you have? Why are you even leveling?


The second bolded comment confuses me. Combat is surprisingly fun right now, just ask the players who don't sit around in Ul'Dah all day pressing enter.


Sorry if it wasn't implied clearly enough, thought the past tense helped. I was referring to the fact that the dev team missed the mark on combat in the past, thus I was asking, would you have asked that question in the past when combat was buggy and not-fun.
#69 Sep 01 2011 at 4:23 PM Rating: Decent
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i think power leveling is alright, as long as the player has done the grind to cap with at least 1 job in order to gain the neccessary experience with that job, and get's to see what the other jobs roles are in a party.

in ffxi, i leveled up ninja first, did a bunch of end game, then started on leveling up SMN BRD SAM. all 3 of those jobs i boosted them to cap as fast as i could, and skilled up all the neccessary skills. Because of the experience i gained from seing how those jobs were played by other players i was able to get into those jobs fairly easily and practice until i was good at all of them. (i was known as being an excellent NIN tank, SMN, and BRD bird puller. SAM also but DD wasn't to hard to play anyway)

So in conclusion, I hope that anyone considering power leveling themselves to cap has at least grinded 1 job, because there is just so much benefit to it. After that it just becomes a tedious hassle, which is why all those astral burn parties appeared. (FYI i was a non burned SMN, i did it all straight up ;_;)
#70 Sep 01 2011 at 9:34 PM Rating: Good
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StateAlchemist the Eccentric wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
imagine if this game ONLY had Land and Hand. Who would you craft for? What exciting content do you have? Why are you even leveling?


There are entire MMOs that revolve around Crafting, not combat. I would reckon asking one of their game developers would give you the best response.

However let me redirect you in the meantime to this thread here, which discusses possible additions to FFXIV that could really make DoH/L classes shine as a "main".


And I'm not against that at all.

But i can see your points in that just because DoL and DoH are a mess now does not mean they cannot become fully fleshed out and entertaining classes in the future. I would actually enjoy that. Right now though... it's miserable to craft, IMO.
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#71 Sep 01 2011 at 11:00 PM Rating: Good
Louiscool wrote:
StateAlchemist the Eccentric wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
imagine if this game ONLY had Land and Hand. Who would you craft for? What exciting content do you have? Why are you even leveling?


There are entire MMOs that revolve around Crafting, not combat. I would reckon asking one of their game developers would give you the best response.

However let me redirect you in the meantime to this thread here, which discusses possible additions to FFXIV that could really make DoH/L classes shine as a "main".


And I'm not against that at all.

But i can see your points in that just because DoL and DoH are a mess now does not mean they cannot become fully fleshed out and entertaining classes in the future. I would actually enjoy that. Right now though... it's miserable to craft, IMO.

Yeah a lot of people seem to feel that way, from what I have read on the forums. Somehow, I don't seem to mind it. Maybe I am just crazy.

Edited, Sep 2nd 2011 1:00am by StateAlchemist
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#72 Sep 02 2011 at 4:11 AM Rating: Excellent
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I liked XI's system... you could power level... but you then had to grind weapon skill levels a lot harder than those who progressed in the traditional manner.
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#73 Sep 02 2011 at 7:13 AM Rating: Excellent
TauuOfSiren wrote:
I seem to be in the minority as being a person who likes exp grind parties, but if there's ever a party search feature and thus lots of grind parties I don't like how a high level PL would basically remove all aspects of gameplay from the party. As a WHM and PLD I didn't like healer PLs in FFXI, and now in FFXIV PLs will be able to take away the task of DDing too. All you need is a puller and the rest of the party can go afk while the PL kills everything. How lame is that?
I like exp grind parties because it's a great way to meet new people if isn't an LS event.

StateAlchemist the Eccentric wrote:
RamseySylph wrote:
There's a lot of people who are playing that are primarily focused on enjoying the content for DoH and DoL.


Me for one. And I have plenty to do. However once I reach cap for all DoH/L and have all abilities etc...if there is nothing to do but make money...well then I guess I will have an easy time leveling my other classes that I left untouched. Would I like to see some really awesome and unique content for DoH/L. Sure. But I can wait. For now.
For some reason, I love logging, but hate mining and fishing.

Is that odd?
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#74 Sep 02 2011 at 7:53 AM Rating: Decent
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Admiral Lubriderm wrote:
TauuOfSiren wrote:
I seem to be in the minority as being a person who likes exp grind parties, but if there's ever a party search feature and thus lots of grind parties I don't like how a high level PL would basically remove all aspects of gameplay from the party. As a WHM and PLD I didn't like healer PLs in FFXI, and now in FFXIV PLs will be able to take away the task of DDing too. All you need is a puller and the rest of the party can go afk while the PL kills everything. How lame is that?
I like exp grind parties because it's a great way to meet new people if isn't an LS event.

StateAlchemist the Eccentric wrote:
RamseySylph wrote:
There's a lot of people who are playing that are primarily focused on enjoying the content for DoH and DoL.


Me for one. And I have plenty to do. However once I reach cap for all DoH/L and have all abilities etc...if there is nothing to do but make money...well then I guess I will have an easy time leveling my other classes that I left untouched. Would I like to see some really awesome and unique content for DoH/L. Sure. But I can wait. For now.
For some reason, I love logging, but hate mining and fishing.

Is that odd?


No, actually, I love the sound of the hatchet in a tree. Something strangely satisfying.
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#75 Sep 02 2011 at 8:26 AM Rating: Good
I love how I can hit 'x' and keep running and end up logging 30 yalms from the tree. Go go gadget extendo-hatchet!
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#76 Sep 02 2011 at 10:32 AM Rating: Decent
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The bigger issue shouldn't even be if powerleveling is ok.
The bigger issue is why would anyone want to reach endgame faster?
1.The content is boring or severly lacking on the journey there.

Do you ever play offline FF and wish there wasn't so many roadstops to do quests, explore etc. And just skip as fast as possible to the end of the game?
I no I don't. Those roadstops being omitted is why XIII got it's controversial reception for the most part.

So if SE wants players who play offline FF and other mmos. Why would the game be designed that most of the fun stuff doesn't happen until you reach endgame?
If that was the case with offline FF. I wouldn't have finished half of the games. They should design fun content from level to cap and beyond. And allow players to sidekick down levels to enjoy lower level content as well. But Sandpark letting players sidekick down levels will encourage players to take the easier path to leveling...
Yeah, that is a possibility. So doesn't powerleveling give that option as well?

It doesn't matter what dol and doh was designed for in the beginning or what their purpose is now. Some gamers will play as those as their primary source of content.
So if SE designs all the cool content for doh and dol at endgame. Which they shouldn't in my opinion. If you see no problem with powerleveling in combat. Then to say powerleveling is in dol and doh is biased. If the majority of cool content is at endgame and not along the journey. Then SE needs to allow powerleveling in doh and dol.

The coolest content should be at endgame. But not the majority, especially not this early in the life cycle. If SE wants the game to appeal to a wider audience. They need to get off this train of thought of the journey being mediocre, low in content, and just a hinderance to endgame. And if they are already set in that path. Then they need to increase xp ten fold gained thru conventional methods/partys/crafting/gathering/whatever. If you can't deliver compelling enough content to make the journey worthwhile and not have players searching for loopholes. That will make players feel the need to grind faster and maybe cause some to quit before the end.

There I said my piece. You can argue what is best or not. But you can't argue that the game should be compelling and full of variety from start to end.
(Fill in the plotholes and story gaps for every class with unique class stories. And offer more paths of progression. PvP, massive public events, etc. Don't be lazy now SE.)
#77 Sep 02 2011 at 10:45 AM Rating: Good
sandpark wrote:
The bigger issue shouldn't even be if powerleveling is ok.
The bigger issue is why would anyone want to reach endgame faster?
1.The content is boring or severly lacking on the journey there.

Do you ever play offline FF and wish there wasn't so many roadstops to do quests, explore etc. And just skip as fast as possible to the end of the game?
I no I don't. Those roadstops being omitted is why XIII got it's controversial reception for the most part.

So if SE wants players who play offline FF and other mmos. Why would the game be designed that most of the fun stuff doesn't happen until you reach endgame?
If that was the case with offline FF. I wouldn't have finished half of the games. They should design fun content from level to cap and beyond. And allow players to sidekick down levels to enjoy lower level content as well. But Sandpark letting players sidekick down levels will encourage players to take the easier path to leveling...
Yeah, that is a possibility. So doesn't powerleveling give that option as well?

It doesn't matter what dol and doh was designed for in the beginning or what their purpose is now. Some gamers will play as those as their primary source of content.
So if SE designs all the cool content for doh and dol at endgame. Which they shouldn't in my opinion. If you see no problem with powerleveling in combat. Then to say powerleveling is in dol and doh is biased. If the majority of cool content is at endgame and not along the journey. Then SE needs to allow powerleveling in doh and dol.

The coolest content should be at endgame. But not the majority, especially not this early in the life cycle. If SE wants the game to appeal to a wider audience. They need to get off this train of thought of the journey being mediocre, low in content, and just a hinderance to endgame. And if they are already set in that path. Then they need to increase xp ten fold gained thru conventional methods/partys/crafting/gathering/whatever. If you can't deliver compelling enough content to make the journey worthwhile and not have players searching for loopholes. That will make players feel the need to grind faster and maybe cause some to quit before the end.

There I said my piece. You can argue what is best or not. But you can't argue that the game should be compelling and full of variety from start to end.
(Fill in the plotholes and story gaps for every class with unique class stories. And offer more paths of progression. PvP, massive public events, etc. Don't be lazy now SE.)


What?

EDIT: Did you really refer to yourself in third person?

Edited, Sep 2nd 2011 12:47pm by StateAlchemist
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#78 Sep 02 2011 at 11:08 AM Rating: Decent
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StateAlchemist the Eccentric wrote:
sandpark wrote:
But Sandpark letting players sidekick down levels will encourage players to take the easier path to leveling...
Yeah, that is a possibility. So doesn't powerleveling give that option as well?What?


EDIT: Did you really refer to yourself in third person?

I'm guessing it is supposed to be a question posed to him from someone else? Just a hunch.

I kinda agree with his point about the content on the way to cap being boring and non-existent. To be honest, there wouldn't even be a powerleveling issue outside of RMT purposes if it was actually fun to play and experience the content. I'm all for it taking a long time to level to cap, but only if there is something along the way that makes you stop and appreciate it.


Edited, Sep 2nd 2011 1:08pm by FilthMcNasty
____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#79 Sep 02 2011 at 11:50 AM Rating: Good
FilthMcNasty wrote:
StateAlchemist the Eccentric wrote:
sandpark wrote:
But Sandpark letting players sidekick down levels will encourage players to take the easier path to leveling...
Yeah, that is a possibility. So doesn't powerleveling give that option as well?What?


EDIT: Did you really refer to yourself in third person?

I'm guessing it is supposed to be a question posed to him from someone else? Just a hunch.

I kinda agree with his point about the content on the way to cap being boring and non-existent. To be honest, there wouldn't even be a powerleveling issue outside of RMT purposes if it was actually fun to play and experience the content. I'm all for it taking a long time to level to cap, but only if there is something along the way that makes you stop and appreciate it.


Edited, Sep 2nd 2011 1:08pm by FilthMcNasty


His whole post was so jumbled I couldn't tell.

At the moment core issues are still present so designing a lot of midgame content is silly (so is endgame for that matter) but a lot of people have r50s so in order to keep them quiet(er) they release some endgame~ish stuff just to keep people busy.

As we can see in the 1.19/1.20 notes there is some heavy content on the way on the coat-tails of the major core changes. I feel that se will show midgame some serious love once the biggest issues are taken care of and some more decent endgame-style content is released. Either way, I am leaving dow/m stuff for last, so I will probably have no problem with having fun while I level the whole time. (Regardless the speed.)
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#80 Sep 02 2011 at 12:23 PM Rating: Default
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I'm not suggesting only one area of content such as mid game/endgame. I am talking about content from the day you log in the first time. To the day you quit the game.
I know the game has issues that they are ironing out. But if they really want to draw in PS3 players and bring some pc players in. These players won't care what is being worked out or what is set for the future during their introduction to the game. If they want to expand the playerbase by a good degree. They need to offer compelling content from day one and keep going thru the life span of XIV. Designing the game to revolve around endgame in your 1st year is bad.
Just look around at other mmos releasing this generation. I won't name any of them, because I am not biased towards one or the other. But most of them are addressing content at all levels to a good degree.

I am glad to see you adapting and having fun in the game in the fashion you like. Most players don't want to adapt to anything. They want it done and done right.
I am just saying for them to either offer content at all levels. Or just shrink the leveling length by a huge degree. So players don't need to look for loopholes. Or feel the need to grind to the end to access all the cool stuff.

I don't know why fragmented story has lasted as long as it has in mmos.
Cool intro>Cool beginning>Large gap to next big thing>Cool thing>Large gap>Large gap>Large gap>>cool thing>Endgame.
It's the equivalent of playing FF6. Begin game>Floating Island>World of Ruin>Kefka fight and all the other stuff ommited.

No I know some say that's a single player game. But they are asking for you the individual to pay 20x what you payed for an offline one if you play along time.
The content has to be pretty different since it's multiplayer. But I say if it was in a ff before. It has to be in some form here. Because let's face it. If someone choose this mmo over another. It's because they played and like the FF franchise. When they log in here, it should be more than just lore and skins they experience. They want to ride magitek armor, summon, cast all the powerful spells, particpate in motor bike combat like cloud did. You know all the epic parts of the games. They don't play to kill the regular mobs for the most part. Unless they are trying to collect a drop.
#81 Sep 02 2011 at 12:59 PM Rating: Good
sandpark wrote:
I'm not suggesting only one area of content such as mid-game or end-game. I am talking about content from the day you log on for the first time until the day you quit the game.

I know the game has issues that they are ironing out, but if they really want to draw in PS3 players and bring some PC players in...(unfinished thought?) These players won't care what is being worked out, or what is set for the future during their introduction to the game. If they want to expand the player-base by a good degree they need to offer compelling content from day one and keep going throughout the life span of FFXIV. Designing the game to revolve around endgame in your 1st year is bad.

Just look around at other MMOs released this generation... I won't name any of them because I am not biased towards one in particular, but most of them are addressing content at all levels to a good degree.

I am glad to see you adapting and having fun in the game in the fashion you like, however most players don't want to adapt to anything. They want it done, and done right.

I am just saying that they need to either offer content at all levels, or just shrink the leveling length (Time it takes to level? Amount of XP it takes to attain each level?) by a huge degree so players don't need to look for loopholes or feel the need to grind to the end to access all the cool stuff.

I don't know why fragmented story-lines have lasted as long as they have in MMOs.

Cool intro > Cool beginning > Large gap > Cool thing > XXLarge gap > Cool thing > Endgame.
It's the equivalent of playing FFVI. Begin game > Floating Island > World of Ruin > Kefka fight, and all the other stuff omitted.

Now I know some will say: "That's a single player game...", but they are asking for you, the individual, to pay 20x what you payed for an offline one, if you play a long time.

The content has to be pretty different since it's multiplayer, but I say if it was in a FF before it has to be here in some form, because, let's face it, if someone chooses this MMO over another, it's because they played and liked the FF franchise. When they log in here, it should be more than just lore and skins they experience. They want to ride magitek armor (Really? Magitek armor? in FFXIV? And ridden by players? LOL!), summon, cast all the powerful spells, participate in motorbike combat (Oh yeah, in 1.19 they are releasing Chocobos, but in 1.25 they are releasing Motorcycles. And as an anniversary gift everyone gets Cloud's Buster Sword.) like Cloud did. You know all the epic parts of the games. They don't play to kill the regular mobs, for the most part, unless they are trying to collect a drop.


Sorry I had to clean this up so I could understand it.

Edited, Sep 2nd 2011 3:00pm by StateAlchemist
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#82 Sep 02 2011 at 1:13 PM Rating: Good
Ok, after reading the cleaned up version I supplied, it would seem you are suggesting that

1) All FFXIV players are FF fanboys mindlessly playing to get their 'fix'.
2) No one else will play unless there is unlimited content at any given time/level.
3) You want a lot of stuff in the game that has nothing to do with FFXIV.
4) You want leveling to be as easy as "the game which shall not be named".
Oh and you don't like killing the same monster over and over.

I am not sure I have played a FF title in which there was an endless amount of content at any given time/level, had an 'easy' leveling system, or didn't require you killing the same thing over and over.

They seem to be sticking to their guns! Best not make them angry, they might increase the XP required to level and change all monsters into Marmots!
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#83 Sep 02 2011 at 1:42 PM Rating: Decent
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OK, I don't why this sudden urge to pick apart my character came from. But I'll play.

1.I mentioned no such thing about fanboys. It's fundamentals 101. You choose a "FF" mmo. Because it plays like an FF.
2.I didn't say unlimited. I said if they can't offer a substantial amount of compelling content across the board. Just shorten the leveling process.
3.I want alot of the stuff that has to do with FF in general. Since this game uses the FF universe. To log in and for it to play like a different game such as Dragon Age. Would feel ludicrous.
4.I don't care if leveling is easy or not. What I care about is that i'ts exciting in story, mechanics, variety thorughout the process.

Then it's obvious you haven't played many FF. You normally level maybe a week tops. And there is content or scenarios every 3-5 levels. You kill the same thing over and over in any game. The difference is how well the pacing of killing matches with the pacing of story. I leveled every job but 3 to 75 before abyssea came out. So I can muster grinding.

What did you think players thought when they saw airships and magitek in the sky in the cs? Oh, I can't wait to shoot that down with arrows from my chocobo?
I never said place Cloud or any of his weapons, clothes in particular into XIV. I said most play FF for those kind of larger than life moments. Not, "Oh I can't wait to grind outside Figaro!" And to joke about that is funny to me. With the reused character skins.(But the roegalka don't have tails and have different lore)So if SE did make a playable race called cloud and stuck bunny ears on him. Would you still call him Cloud?

Read closer this time:
Either expand content across the journey.
Or shorten the leveling curve to reach the end. Where all the cool content is.
Not demanding anything. If one of these two is not accomplished. Players will still play. But most will not stayed subbed for long durations.

Instead of trying to make fun of my grammar or make smart remarks. You should look at the bigger picture. Do you want the game stay niche guaranteed ?
Or do you want servers that at least have the oppurtunity to become pretty big?
#84 Sep 02 2011 at 1:54 PM Rating: Good
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All I have to say is, just give me more god damned levequests.

You don't have to design games for a living to comprehend that it would take no more than an hour to design, implement and test a levequest. Script a few monster spawns, set a few fields for what level those mobs spawn based on the difficulty of the quest. Set a drop rate for any items if they have them. Bam, done.

Just being able to select from more camps to participate in levequests at would make the leveling experience that much more enjoyable.

They're obviously holding back on creating new levequests for some reason, I don't know what it is, I don't care because, they shouldn't be. Even if they are planning to add something more enjoyable, or some new type of leve, having more old-style leves wouldn't hurt anyone. Stick one guy on levequests and he could populate nearly every camp in the game within 1 month of work.

Until they start taking the approach of creating content now, instead of later, PLing will be very appealing to a lot of players. Even if there's not a lot to do at end game, leveling classes, is it's own content, and doing it faster, why not? Especially if I'm doing the same 20-30 levequests from 1-50 that I did on all my other classes.
#85 Sep 02 2011 at 2:07 PM Rating: Good
sandpark wrote:
OK, I don't why this sudden urge to pick apart my character came from. But I'll play.

I'm not "picking apart your character", I just find it very hard to read your posts. Especially when it is full of fragmented sentences and unfinished thoughts.

sandpark wrote:
1.I mentioned no such thing about fanboys. It's fundamentals 101. You choose a "FF" mmo. Because it plays like an FF.

No. I choose an MMO because it looks interesting, graphically appealing, and I know people that play it.

sandpark wrote:
you haven't played many FF.

I have played every FF.

sandpark wrote:
I leveled every job but 3 to 75 before abyssea came out. So I can muster grinding.

That's great. But did you like the fact that leveling was effortless with Abyssea? I didn't. Not everyone hates grinding. Offering an alternative is best, to better please both crowds.

sandpark wrote:
What did you think players thought when they saw airships and magitek in the sky in the cs? Oh, I can't wait to shoot that down with arrows from my chocobo?

No. Mounted combat is not something I could ever see SE putting in FFXIV.

sandpark wrote:
I never said place Cloud or any of his weapons, clothes in particular into XIV. I said most play FF for those kind of larger than life moments. Not, "Oh I can't wait to grind outside Figaro!" And to joke about that is funny to me. With the reused character skins.(But the roegalka don't have tails and have different lore)So if SE did make a playable race called cloud and stuck bunny ears on him. Would you still call him Cloud?

FFXI's story-lines were exemplary. Nothing to make me think SE won't step up to the plate with FFXIV.

sandpark wrote:
Read closer this time:
Either expand content across the journey, or shorten the leveling curve to reach the end where all the cool content is, not demanding anything. If one of these two is not accomplished, players will still play, but most will not stayed subbed for long durations.

Again too many sentence fragments, so I cleaned it up again.

sandpark wrote:
Instead of trying to make fun of my grammar or make smart remarks. You should look at the bigger picture. Do you want the game stay niche guaranteed ?
Or do you want servers that at least have the opportunity to become pretty big?


I would rather FFXIV stay a niche MMO (like FFXI) then become another "game which shall not be named".

I can see the bigger picture. The game was broken and they are now fixing it. Dealing with how smoothly a player progresses from 1-cap and having a balanced mix of grinding and content is not the top priority at the moment.

Dealing with basic game mechanics and balancing current content so that the foundation is laid for future content is the immediate goal here. It seems to me you are putting the cart before the horse. Just be patient, everyone knows how your feeling.

Edited, Sep 2nd 2011 4:09pm by StateAlchemist
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#86 Sep 02 2011 at 2:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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4,149 posts
StateAlchemist the Eccentric wrote:
Ok, after reading the cleaned up version I supplied, it would seem you are suggesting that

1) All FFXIV players are FF fanboys mindlessly playing to get their 'fix'.
2) No one else will play unless there is unlimited content at any given time/level.
3) You want a lot of stuff in the game that has nothing to do with FFXIV.
4) You want leveling to be as easy as "the game which shall not be named".
Oh and you don't like killing the same monster over and over.

It didn't read like that to me at all. I know sandpark has issues with forgetting to space out paragraphs, using misplaced punctuation or none at all and organizing thoughts, but his ideas are pretty clear.

People who picked FFXIV over any of the other MMOs did so because they like the FF franchise. Most of them have played an earlier FF title and they wanted an MMO with similar storylines. Storylines which sadly are missing from a large part of this title. There isn't enough going on in the quest/mission part of this game throughout the leveling process; beginning, mid-game or endgame.

Nothing about this title makes you feel like it is FF related outside of chocobos and the character models from FFXI. No great storyline like people have grown accustomed to. People want it to be more FF related to the point of copying and pasting from XI.

The point about leveling being easy makes sense. If they are going to sacrifice early and mid-game content to beef up the endgame, they should at least make it easy to get there. If you level to 40 with nothing but grind and repetitive leves to keep you busy, it's easy to see why new players would burnout before they even reach endgame.

People want to experience content throughout the game. It took me ages to get my first character to 75 in XI; not because it was a ***** of a grind to get there, but because there was a ton of stuff to keep me busy. I logged in for several hours everyday and could go weeks without actually gaining experience... on purpose anyway. Not the case for XIV. Break the monotony with something in between. A lot of something.

Edited, Sep 2nd 2011 4:43pm by FilthMcNasty
____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#87 Sep 02 2011 at 2:40 PM Rating: Decent
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Nothing about this title makes you feel like it is FF related outside of chocobos and the character models from FFXI. No great storyline like people have grown accustomed to. People want it to be more FF related to the point of copying and pasting from XI.

FFXI Main storyline wasn't all that great imo. Now the expansion storylines...amazing. Have a feeling a similar result will come for FFXIV.

FilthMcNasty wrote:
The point about leveling being easy makes sense. If they are going to sacrifice early and mid-game content to beef up the endgame, they should at least make it easy to get there. If you level to 40 with nothing but grind and repetitive leves to keep you busy, it's easy to see why new players would burnout before they even reach endgame.

They aren't going to sacrifice it. The game is broken. It's just delayed and people are getting agitated is all. It's understandable to a degree.

FilthMcNasty wrote:
People want to experience content throughout the game. It took me ages to get my first character to 75 in XI; not because it was a ***** of a grind to get there, but because there was a ton of stuff to keep me busy. I logged in for several hours everyday and could go weeks without actually gaining experience... on purpose anyway. Not the case for XIV. Break the monotony with something in between. A lot of something.

Same with me. But I am not going to whine too much about it until after the game is fixed. If they start giving me the run-around then...well I will join the crusade. For now, I am understanding and patient enough to let them work on the important stuff.
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#88 Sep 02 2011 at 2:53 PM Rating: Good
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StateAlchemist the Eccentric wrote:
Now the expansion storylines...amazing. Have a feeling a similar result will come for FFXIV.

CoP was a failure. It was a great story, but the expansion was capped off by an encounter with a boss that no one has figured out how to defeat(as intended) to this day. How many years has it been? 6? 7?

If I see another AV in the first expansion I will personally hunt Yoshi down and punch him in the throat.

StateAlchemist wrote:
They aren't going to sacrifice it. The game is broken. It's just delayed and people are getting agitated is all. It's understandable to a degree.

Personally I think they should have pulled it until it was ready. Now they are faced with not only fixing the issues which most of those lie at the core of the gameplay mechanics, but they are trying to accomplish this while keeping the current players happy... not going to work out well.
____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#89 Sep 02 2011 at 2:53 PM Rating: Good
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Everyone's opinion on why they choose an mmo may differ slightly. But on the whole, most will pick an FF mmo over others because of the FF universe.

I personally did not like how leveling was handled in Abyssea. Not because I like grinding or disliked seeing other players get to the end faster. I just did not like how it allowed players the option to skip most of the XI journey if they so chose. But Abyssea came late in the games life cycle. So most of the playerbase is gravitated around endgame at this point.

Indeed, I admit when you actually got to experience some of the story. It was well done. When I said fragmented, I meant the length of time required to see each leg of that great story was sparse and fragmented.

I am not trying to pull the cart before the horse. I am just saying before this game releases on the PS3. The horse better be in front of the cart with a clear and mostly finished paved route. Many players would not like to ride on a dirt road under construction with no different highways or intersections. And all the roads converge on one city.
Or else there could be one big traffic jam. And all the drivers road rage, quit using the roads and decide to use airplanes to fly to another frontier.
#90 Sep 02 2011 at 3:03 PM Rating: Decent
sandpark wrote:
Everyone's opinion on why they choose an mmo may differ slightly. But on the whole, most will pick an FF mmo over others because of the FF universe.

I personally did not like how leveling was handled in Abyssea. Not because I like grinding or disliked seeing other players get to the end faster. I just did not like how it allowed players the option to skip most of the XI journey if they so chose. But Abyssea came late in the games life cycle. So most of the playerbase is gravitated around endgame at this point.

Indeed, I admit when you actually got to experience some of the story. It was well done. When I said fragmented, I meant the length of time required to see each leg of that great story was sparse and fragmented.

I am not trying to pull the cart before the horse. I am just saying before this game releases on the PS3. The horse better be in front of the cart with a clear and mostly finished paved route. Many players would not like to ride on a dirt road under construction with no different highways or intersections. And all the roads converge on one city.
Or else there could be one big traffic jam. And all the drivers road rage, quit using the roads and decide to use airplanes to fly to another frontier.

Sentence structure aside on this one, now you make sense. Thanks for finally clarifying some of your key points. Now that you have stopped beating around the bush and specifically identified some of the things you were trying to talk about, I can say that I agree.

Formerly, it was hard to do so because you were either vague, or worded it so that it made your statement seem silly.

SE definitely needs to make sure they are prepared for the PS3 launch (whenever that may be). They will not get another try.
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Humankind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something of equal value must be lost.
Data Center: Primal; Server: Ultros; Free Company: The Kraken Club; Grand Company: The Maelstrom; Chocobo: Kweh
#91 Sep 02 2011 at 3:04 PM Rating: Good
If I see another AV you won't have to. Orbital lasers will beat you to it.

Edited, Sep 2nd 2011 5:05pm by StateAlchemist
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Humankind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something of equal value must be lost.
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#92 Sep 02 2011 at 3:08 PM Rating: Good
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
StateAlchemist the Eccentric wrote:
Now the expansion storylines...amazing. Have a feeling a similar result will come for FFXIV.

CoP was a failure. It was a great story, but the expansion was capped off by an encounter with a boss that no one has figured out how to defeat(as intended) to this day. How many years has it been? 6? 7?


Okay. I've heard a lot of arguments for why Chains of Promathia was a failure, or wasn't a failure. But none of them have ever been pinned on Absolute Virtue.

Absolute Virtue is not a gate to any other content, nor is he involved in any way, shape, or form in the storyline of the expansion.

Killing him nets you a few pieces of gear that were amazing at the time, nothing more.

If anything, it was the low completion numbers on the missions for CoP that made it a flop in SE's eyes, as far as development time being "wasted" because only a small percentage of players actually saw the story or new areas.

Opinion time: CoP was by far my favorite expansion. I loved it, and completing those missions as they were released with each patch, with a close knit group of friends was a satisfying experience that has yet to be paralleled in any MMO setting.

The fights were challenging, made us think, and required team work. We fought through dungeons, random encounters, mini-bosses and watched awesome cutscenes and fought tough bosses with awesome music and really cool battlefields surrounding the fights.

CoP captured the essence of Final Fantasy better than any other expansion, in my opinion.

Personally, I hope to see content like CoP make its way into FFXIV, they only need to make a few alterations to the way they approach it. A level cap is fine! Let me just be straight, there's no reason not to have level capped missions, it allows newer players to join in and experience the fun.

The only concession that needs to be made is, gear needs to scale down, and scale down in a useful way, even if that means higher level players will have better stats from their gear, simply because it offers more bonus categories. If people need only adjust a few skills (and never gear) there won't be a huge commotion about it.

Alternatively, make the cap optional, and allow players to adjust the difficulty of the missions. Difficulty settings have become the industry standard in single player, and co-op games. There's no reason not to do the same even in MMO story missions.

Give different achievements, and more powerful rewards at the end of the story missions depending on what difficulty you're playing on. This way, anyone can complete the missions, and access the new areas/content they unlock, and never get stuck. But those who want a challenge can have one, and those who want to play with low level friends as they rank up etc, can do so without their friends being utterly useless.

For a lot of players, having a lv75 slaughter the mission boss while they stand there, is not exactly their definition of fun. They're just hoping, that down the road this will pay off with some fun.



TL;DR
Absolute Virtue was dumb, but he certainly wasn't even related to any of the actual problems with the expansion overall.
#93 Sep 02 2011 at 3:08 PM Rating: Decent
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3,962 posts
Double-post fail...

Edited, Sep 2nd 2011 2:08pm by RamseySylph
#94 Sep 02 2011 at 4:34 PM Rating: Default
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RamseySylph wrote:
Okay. I've heard a lot of arguments for why Chains of Promathia was a failure, or wasn't a failure. But none of them have ever been pinned on Absolute Virtue.

Not sure if serious.

AV was the final boss in an otherwise great expansion. The several year fiasco of it being 'fixed' so that no one could ever beat it without taking advantage of some sort of hax was what killed this expansion. No, it wasn't a gate to anything else, but it was supposed to be the crown jewel of that expansion.

RamseySylph wrote:
Killing him nets you a few pieces of gear that were amazing at the time, nothing more.

That and the satisfaction of being able to clear content that was intended to be, well... it should have been challenging but it turned out to be impossible.

RamseySylph wrote:
CoP captured the essence of Final Fantasy better than any other expansion, in my opinion.

Stall until they lose interest?

I don't understand why it doesn't upset more people that the final boss of an expansion, one with amazing gear for the time was made to be undefeated. No one sees a problem with that? Really?
____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#95 Sep 02 2011 at 5:10 PM Rating: Decent
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3,962 posts
FilthMcNasty wrote:
RamseySylph wrote:
Okay. I've heard a lot of arguments for why Chains of Promathia was a failure, or wasn't a failure. But none of them have ever been pinned on Absolute Virtue.

Not sure if serious.

AV was the final boss in an otherwise great expansion. The several year fiasco of it being 'fixed' so that no one could ever beat it without taking advantage of some sort of hax was what killed this expansion. No, it wasn't a gate to anything else, but it was supposed to be the crown jewel of that expansion.

RamseySylph wrote:
Killing him nets you a few pieces of gear that were amazing at the time, nothing more.

That and the satisfaction of being able to clear content that was intended to be, well... it should have been challenging but it turned out to be impossible.

RamseySylph wrote:
CoP captured the essence of Final Fantasy better than any other expansion, in my opinion.

Stall until they lose interest?

I don't understand why it doesn't upset more people that the final boss of an expansion, one with amazing gear for the time was made to be undefeated. No one sees a problem with that? Really?


I was being 100% serious, he was not the final boss of the expansion to 99% of the playerbase, including myself.

To most of us, Promathia was the final boss.

Defeating him completes the stroyline, closes out the missions, and grants the final reward of the expansion.

Absolute Virtue is merely an end game HNM, and only targeted towards those players. Again, there is no storyline around him, and he is not a gate for any other content.

What don't you get about it? At the risk of inflicting pardo's law on this post, and I only use this analogy because it's easier for most people to understand, it's like saying if heroic 25 man Arthas was almost impossible to defeat, the entire Wrath of the Lich King expansion would have been a broken/a waste/failure.

That's simply not true. For the majority of players, defeating 10 man normal Arthas is more than enough to wrap up the content for that expansion.

If you're a hardcore end-game HNM completionist, kudos to you, if you saw things like Vrtra, Tiamat and Absolute Virtue as the main content of CoP, kudos to you. But for 99% of the playerbase, that was not the case. Though I do wonder, did you ever make an attempt on AV, how much end game content did you actually clear in CoP's heyday?

Edit:

If the answer is "Not much" I can't even fathom how you're missing my point, but if you did actually make real attempts on AV, and complete all of the other end game content at that time, let me put it this way: You are a fraction of even FFXI's audience. Just like the audience for 25 man heroic arthas is a tiny fraction of WoW's audience.

Your opinion is no less valid, but from the company standpoint, they don't really care how many people completed AV, but it's much more important to them how many people completed the storyline. If only on the amount of money they invested into each of those two pieces of content.

I'm not saying Absolute Virtue was well designed, on the contrary, I believe it was not. But it was by no means a point on which to argue whether or not CoP failed in any way.

Edited, Sep 2nd 2011 4:13pm by RamseySylph
#96 Sep 02 2011 at 5:15 PM Rating: Good
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147 posts
Quote:
AV was the final boss in an otherwise great expansion. The several year fiasco of it being 'fixed' so that no one could ever beat it without taking advantage of some sort of hax was what killed this expansion. No, it wasn't a gate to anything else, but it was supposed to be the crown jewel of that expansion.


Okay, I usually don't post here...but this is honestly pretty bad reasoning. AV can be more attributed to an optional boss like Ruby and Emerald Weapon in FFVII. It isn't COP's final boss at all. You can enjoy every aspect that COP has to offer without ever even seeing AV...AV is completely optional he was mainly a challenge the developers unleashed to see if anyone could actually take him down.

Edited, Sep 2nd 2011 7:24pm by TheFrozenKing
#97 Sep 02 2011 at 10:28 PM Rating: Default
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4,149 posts
RamseySylph wrote:
I was being 100% serious, he was not the final boss of the expansion to 99% of the playerbase, including myself.

So only 1% of the playerbase wanted to tackle what then was the toughest boss in the game? I think you should give XI players a bit more credit than that. Your statement is almost offensive to those who really did expect to find a challenge in FFXI. There were more people trying than you think there were. The problem was that it was so grossly overpowered that even the top LS were quick to ditch any reasonable strategies for trying to beat it.
RamseySylph wrote:
Again, there is no storyline around him

Content is content. You keep saying bring up story as if I alluded to there being some amazing story that opens up after he is beaten. For many XI players it's a big part of the game, but there are people who enjoy the challenge. Given the alternatives, it was one of the few bosses even to this day that presented any kind of challenge.
RamseySylph wrote:
it's like saying if heroic 25 man Arthas was almost impossible to defeat, the entire Wrath of the Lich King expansion would have been a broken/a waste/failure. That's simply not true. For the majority of players, defeating 10 man normal Arthas is more than enough to wrap up the content for that expansion.

Poor example. WoW endgame is about progression. There really isn't a comparison to be made here, but I'll try and sort it out for you a bit later...

RamseySylph wrote:
Though I do wonder, did you ever make an attempt on AV, how much end game content did you actually clear in CoP's heyday?

I cleared every boss in CoP but AV. I'm not certain how many attempts we made, but I do recall I lost several levels worth of exp attempting it. There just comes a point where you realize it isn't a realistic goal. Not because you don't have the skill, gear or patience to try and defeat it, but because you realize that it isn't possible. My LS at the time just didn't have half a dozen kc laying around.

The rest of the content you mentioned wasn't really all that difficult. For nearly all of the HNM in XI; CoP, ToAU or otherwise, the difficulty was in getting the claim. Even groups who lacked both gear and skill (/point RMT) were able to defeat these mobs with relative ease.

RamseySylph wrote:
If the answer is "Not much" I can't even fathom how you're missing my point, but if you did actually make real attempts on AV, and complete all of the other end game content at that time, let me put it this way: You are a fraction of even FFXI's audience. Just like the audience for 25 man heroic arthas is a tiny fraction of WoW's audience.

A fraction of FFXI players wanted to fight AV? Perhaps, but only because they realized how ******* broken it was and weren't willing to bash their head into the wall for hours on end. A bit off topic, but I'm curious why this reasoning hasn't carried over to XIV yet...

but I digress. It was much larger than you think it was. People in XI want the best gear in the game just as much as any other player from another game would.

FYI, the number of guilds who cleared HLK 25 is in the thousands. For the sake of correcting the nonsense you're spewing, the following was lifted from the website wowprogress.com which tracks guild progress:

5665 Veni Vidi Wipe (10) EU-Burning Blade 12/12 (H)

5,665 guilds are listed as having defeated HLK. Guilds are only ranked once so considering that guilds who progressed with more than one 10 man group cleared it again for other players in their guilds, those attempts were not counted. PUG groups or guild runs with any pugged players also are not counted. Myth busted!

If your point is that AV doesn't progress the storyline, I will not disagree with you there. If your point is that 1 out of 100 XI players wanted to challenge AV, you should re-evaluate that assessment. It isn't even close to the truth.
____________________________
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cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#98 Sep 02 2011 at 11:24 PM Rating: Decent
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3,962 posts
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Stuff.


Let me lay down a few facts for you.



Both of these are facts, they do not lie. Even if 10 times that many players completed HLK25 outside of those guilds, that's still 10% of 11 million players, meaning over 9 million players did not experience that content. You also need to keep in mind that the reality is, HLK was most likely not pugged very often (to completion), at least not when the content was relevant, so the idea that 10x that many players completed it is still ludicrous, and even if they did, again, that's only 10%. Ten percent.

Back to CoP, over 5 years after its release, still only about 25% of the game's active user base had access to Al'Taieu. There's two reasons for this, apathy for the content, and player's being unable to complete the missions due to difficulty.

Spew crap about how easy the missions are all you want, the reality is, that for most people, they were difficult. Games can not be designed exclusively for the hardcore. Look at you, on one hand you ***** and moan about how impossible AV is, and in the exact same stream of thought you talk about how easy the rest of CoP was, and how meaningless it was, and how even pathetic people could complete it.

You are sorely mistaken if you think even a quarter of the playerbase has the same attitude that you do towards any of the subjects you broached. I haven't done any studies, so you're right, I can't give you exact numbers, but I dare you to poll forum=10, I guarantee you, even if you pole ZAM's audience, which is significantly more hardcore than the average user as a general rule (anyone who posts on a forum about a game is) that at least 50% of the players never even considered going after AV, even before they knew he was basically impossible to defeat.

And I guarantee you at least 90% of those that completed the missions do not feel that their experience with Chains of Promathia was diminished by not defeating him.

People play MMOs for all sorts of different reasons, only a small fraction of the players play to be the absolute best, and complete the absolute hardest content.

HLK25 was a perfect example, while not 100% analogous, it's more than close enough. WoW is about progression, even more than FFXI is a lot of FFXI players actually do play for the narrative and the world), and yet only a tiny fraction completed HLK25. Why is that?

Because it's just an extremely hard fight, that serves no purpose other than to drop a few best in slot pieces to show off and an achievement. It's not new content, and it's not a gate for any other content.

An above poster mentioned the similarities that Absolute Virtue shares with the "Weapons" that often appear in single player Final Fantasy games, Emerald, Ruby, Omega, Ultima, etc. This is also a good analogy. There are players that played those games who were only vaguely aware of the existence of those enemies, or didn't know at all. Their experience finishing the game was not diminished by the fact that they did not defeat them.

Not everyone plays for bragging rights. And even less play for absolute bragging rights.

Edited, Sep 2nd 2011 10:28pm by RamseySylph
#99 Sep 03 2011 at 12:22 AM Rating: Good
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147 posts
Quote:
As of the 8th Vana'Diel census, taken after the release of WotG, the amount of players still on the first chapter of Chains of Promathia was 47.64%


Okay, this might be nitpicking and don't get me wrong I agree with what you're saying but honestly that data is pretty much inflated by external factors, yeah the number is high but COP is basically the only expansion that you start purely on accident. You start the first mission by having COP installed and zoning into Lower Delkfutt's Tower which used to be a pretty common zone and used in a common early nation mission (every nation's 3-3 sends you there).

So literally everyone that zones into that zone with COP has started COP. ROTZ is similar but you have to be Rank 6+ in your nation and head to Norg. Let's say on average a person will be 45 or 46 before reaching Rank 6 (of course there will be people lower and some higher but 45 is a good halfway point), according to SE's own census that's only about 23% of the total population.

And TOAU has a quest before the quest to get the boarding pass to even get to Aht Urhgan and even then you're not on the first mission till you talk to Naja. So kinda hard to accidently start it.

So yeah COP's number is high because literally anyone that zones into Lower Delkfutt's Tower is techinally on the first mission of COP. If they were to also tally how much of the population simply weren't on any missions you'd see that both TOAU and ROZ would probably have equally as high simply that hadn't started the expansions.

Edited, Sep 3rd 2011 2:25am by TheFrozenKing
#100 Sep 03 2011 at 1:45 AM Rating: Decent
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3,962 posts
TheFrozenKing wrote:
Quote:
As of the 8th Vana'Diel census, taken after the release of WotG, the amount of players still on the first chapter of Chains of Promathia was 47.64%


Okay, this might be nitpicking and don't get me wrong I agree with what you're saying but honestly that data is pretty much inflated by external factors, yeah the number is high but COP is basically the only expansion that you start purely on accident. You start the first mission by having COP installed and zoning into Lower Delkfutt's Tower which used to be a pretty common zone and used in a common early nation mission (every nation's 3-3 sends you there).

So literally everyone that zones into that zone with COP has started COP. ROTZ is similar but you have to be Rank 6+ in your nation and head to Norg. Let's say on average a person will be 45 or 46 before reaching Rank 6 (of course there will be people lower and some higher but 45 is a good halfway point), according to SE's own census that's only about 23% of the total population.

And TOAU has a quest before the quest to get the boarding pass to even get to Aht Urhgan and even then you're not on the first mission till you talk to Naja. So kinda hard to accidently start it.

So yeah COP's number is high because literally anyone that zones into Lower Delkfutt's Tower is techinally on the first mission of COP. If they were to also tally how much of the population simply weren't on any missions you'd see that both TOAU and ROZ would probably have equally as high simply that hadn't started the expansions.

Edited, Sep 3rd 2011 2:25am by TheFrozenKing


How is any of this relevant? My point was that people didn't bother to complete the missions.

Not that people who accepted the first mission didn't bother to progress.

It doesn't matter whether they accepted it, didn't accept it. The reality is, only a tiny fraction of the playerbase actually finished CoP in its heydey (this was after a lot of changes to make it easier even.)

If anything, the fact that so many players began the missions but never progressed only serves to further my point. It's a more accurate gauge of player involvement in completing the missions than for other storylines, where players had to have made an effort to begin them. We have no idea what percentage of players haven't even begun those.

I love CoP, I wish the numbers were higher, because the development team of FFXIV wouldn't be afraid to do something so ambitious with a mission line. I still don't think they should be afraid, they just need to allow the difficulty and investment for players to scale.


Edited, Sep 3rd 2011 12:46am by RamseySylph
#101 Sep 03 2011 at 9:08 AM Rating: Decent
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4,149 posts
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Stuff.

If you're not going to take the time to read it then don't ******* respond. Spare yourself from looking like an idiot and spare me from having to repeat myself because you either can't read or can't put it together in your own head.

RamseySylph wrote:
5665 Guilds Completed HLK25? That's good to know, that's just over 1% of the upwards of 10 million subscribers to the game.

Reading is ******* fundamental. 5665 guilds completed HLK 10. This does not include HLK25. Thousands more completed that. Again, this is guild only. All those runs that pugged even 1 player don't get counted here. All those runs which were repeated by the same guilds with different players from that guild are not counted here. Any combination of the above are also not counted here.
RamseySylph wrote:
Spew crap about how easy the missions are all you want, the reality is, that for most people, they were difficult. Games can not be designed exclusively for the hardcore. Look at you, on one hand you ***** and moan about how impossible AV is, and in the exact same stream of thought you talk about how easy the rest of CoP was, and how meaningless it was, and how even pathetic people could complete it.

Again, please use the ******* quote button. I never said anything about CoP missions. You were speaking about Vrtra, Tiamat and other HNMs. I never said **** about missions. The HNM were easy, especially in comparison to AV who is the subject of the discussion. Still, you stray from the point...
RamseySylph wrote:
still only about 25% of the game's active user base had access to Al'Taieu

Then you follow up with...
RamseySylph wrote:
a lot of FFXI players actually do play for the narrative and the world

Not sure if you were aware, but playing for narrative would lead you to completing Al'taieu access. I think you're starting to forget even what your own point is.

On one hand you attribute the low numbers of completion of CoP missions to the difficulty, but for some reason you argue that the impossibility of the crown jewel of the expansion doesn't factor in... Does not compute.

RamseySylph wrote:
HLK25 was a perfect example, while not 100% analogous, it's more than close enough.

No, it's a horrible example because HLK was defeated. IIRC it was roughly 1300 guilds that defeated HLK25. Go ahead and use whatever method you used to arrive at your conclusion for how many people defeated HLK 10, add them up and compare them to the ZERO people who downed AV. Feel better now?

Despite what you think, there are many people who play for the 'challenge' of defeating HNM. I am not now, nor will I ever try to represent this as the majority of the playerbase. The fact is that it wouldn't matter if it was 1% of the playerbase or 100% because whatever that worked out to, 0% would actually be able to do it.





____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
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