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#102 Sep 03 2011 at 9:20 AM Rating: Decent
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Well this is relevant because according to the data, it could be argued that more people that actually started COP(and had the means to finish COP)...finished COP than either of the other two expansions. If we use our little friend math that 27.34% might seem small but if you think of the much larger % of population on COP due to nearly everyone having started the expansion.

Pretty much anyone around let's say level 30 started COP (really most people accidently start much earlier), according to the data that's 44.47% of the population. Now remember COP you can't finish till you're around 70-75 anyway so of that 44.47% of the population that could finish COP only 13.94% of the entire population could feasibly ever finish it. So of course the data is going to be skewed in the "people start COP but people don't finish COP". Only around 31% (and probably slightly lower) of the people that start COP could eventually finish COP simply due to levels.

While on the other hand take ROTZ which as I said is started by about 23% of the population and you can finish it at 70-75ish as well. Well that 13.94% of the population also makes up over half of that level range so once they have the means to start it they are well more likely to end up having the means to finish it, and yet even if you add the numbers to Awakening and The Last Verse, it only comes to about 35.34%. So while over half of the people (About 60.6%) that start ROZ have the means to finish ROZ only 35.34% actually do finish it.

So basically what I'm saying is the number of people that started and had the means to actually finish COP (read as high enough level) is actually quite large in comparison to those that start ROTZ and actually finish it. Because you're looking at nearly double the sample size overall. So if 27.34% of the population from 30-75 (and remember COP could only really be finished in early 70's at earliest) ended up finishing it, that's a pretty huge number. So what you should draw from these numbers is that COP actually was the most finished expansion by people that had the jobs high enough to finish it. Or you could also draw that a huge part of the population simply don't do expansion's storylines.

To sum up in a nice little bow if you don't want to read the novella above:

Around 31%(probably lower) of the people that started COP could realistically finish it, 27.34% did. Of the 60.6% of people that start ROZ and could finish it only 35.34% of people do. Pretty simple math. If you need me to explain it any easier let me know.
#103 Sep 03 2011 at 9:42 AM Rating: Decent
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TheFrozenKing wrote:
Around 31%(probably lower) of the people that started COP could realistically finish it, 27.34% did.

Forgive me if I butcher this because starting the long weekend I've turned off my math cap for a few days...

What you're saying is that 31% of the people who started CoP could realistically finish due to level requirements and of those 31% who had the necessary level requirements, 27.34% of those actually cleared it?

So assuming that 100,000 people(higher I'm sure, but for a nice clean number to work with) purchased CoP, 31,000(or lower as stated) had the required level to finish and 27,340 actually finished it? That would mean that of those eligible to clear it, roughly 88% did?
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Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#104 Sep 03 2011 at 10:03 AM Rating: Decent
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147 posts
Quote:
What you're saying is that 31% of the people who started CoP could realistically finish due to level requirements and of those 31% who had the necessary level requirements, 27.34% of those actually cleared it?


Yes that's basically what I'm saying the data shows (again these aren't 100% solid fact but pretty accurate estimates given the amount of data). There are also a ton of other factors that could help explain the data and if need be I could go into another novella about the differences in expansions and wny certian missions are higher than other and so on and so on but I'll only really go into if if someone requires it.

Edited, Sep 3rd 2011 12:04pm by TheFrozenKing
#105 Sep 03 2011 at 10:11 AM Rating: Decent
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4,144 posts
Rough estimate is good enough for me.

Probably not possible, but I'd be interested in seeing how many people were completing content beyond just the missions. Ramsey seems to think that a tiny percentage of this 88% who completed it were interested in anything beyond just the necessary missions for storyline. Just based on the number of jailer items I've seen in circulation, I think his estimate of how many people were involved in CoP endgame is incredibly low...

RamseySylph wrote:
People play MMOs for all sorts of different reasons, only a small fraction of the players play to be the absolute best, and complete the absolute hardest content.
____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#106 Sep 03 2011 at 12:01 PM Rating: Decent
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A large factor in why some of the big expansions did not reach big total completion rates is due to gating and zero incentives for repeating the content.
When content first gets released. Many are trying to experience the content. So the likelyhood of forming groups and completing the content is high.
In a perfect world, gating should never be in the discussion. However, a developer can rarely push out content fast enough to meet demand in the wait for the next wave.
Now if the game has super human sub numbers. This point holds no real meaning. You would have an easier time finding groups regardless.

Temporary gating serve a good purpose if it is used sparingly 3-6 months tops. Beyond that and it just feels like a slap in the face. And makes the game feel like it is throwing obstacles in your path. Just for the sake of extending the time you need to keep playing. No matter how hard content is. If you can repeat it hourly or daily. Eventually even the crappiest players will learn from his/her mistakes and overcome the content. Unless the encounter is designed to be almost impossible, teetering on gimmicky.
If you were to compare the completion rate of content when it was gated. To the completion rate when good amounts of gating were lifted. You will see the rate of completion raised exponentially.

A good social network of friends or a good linkshell. Could help complete goals in a good fashion. But if you were a loner, unsocial, or just could not find a good linkshell.
After the intial wave of completionist bypassed the content. The former could find himself shouting for hours, sometimes days to get help. And sometimes he could not even get help quick enough. And would just throw in the towel. The player had to rely on someone wanting to help out of the kindness of their heart.

I think a social point reward system could work wonders for finding help. Either from random people or social networks. I will not say what kind of rewards should be in specifically. But the rewards should mostly be comprised of vanity items. So players don't start looking for methods to abuse the system.
What do you think of a social rewards system? Can you see it working and helping the playerbase work more cohesively?

Edited, Sep 3rd 2011 2:03pm by sandpark
#107 Sep 03 2011 at 12:46 PM Rating: Decent
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3,962 posts
FilthMcNasty wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Stuff.

If you're not going to take the time to read it then don't @#%^ing respond. Spare yourself from looking like an idiot and spare me from having to repeat myself because you either can't read or can't put it together in your own head.


You're a very angry person. Perhaps after I directly responded to the points in your original post, you would have realized that I did in fact read your post, and simply edited it down to the word "Stuff" to A. prevent the post from becoming unnecessarily larger and B. highlight the fact that most of what you wrote was irrelevant.

FilthMcNasty wrote:
RamseySylph wrote:
5665 Guilds Completed HLK25? That's good to know, that's just over 1% of the upwards of 10 million subscribers to the game.

Reading is @#%^ing fundamental. 5665 guilds completed HLK 10. This does not include HLK25. Thousands more completed that. Again, this is guild only. All those runs that pugged even 1 player don't get counted here. All those runs which were repeated by the same guilds with different players from that guild are not counted here. Any combination of the above are also not counted here.


You understand that by pointing out that I had miss-read your post you are actually further proving my point? With those statistics, less than 0.5% of WoW's population completed the hardest encounter. Again, it's foolish to assume that when the content was relevant, that it was frequently pugged. Even if 10x that many wins occured with PUGs, you're talking about less than 5% of the game's population.

So why is the analogy relevant? Even if AV was defeatable, <5% of the population would have made a serious attempt on him, and less than that would have defeated him.


You seem to agree with me later in your post that the amount of people who see HNM content as the end-all-be-all are not in the majority of players, but in the minority.

So, either you're disagreeing with me out of spite, or you don't understand my point, let me make it clear.

Whether or not Chains of Promathia was a failure, be it from a design perspective, or a business perspective, does not, in any way, hinge on the difficulty of Absolute Virtue.

Absolute Virtue is a tiny fraction of the content, which most players never actually cared about. If you want to argue that within the context of the extremely hardcore, bragging rights focused, end game community (If it seems like I am being contemptuous here, I'm not, I did end game as much as anyone else) that Absolute Virtue was the failure of Chains of Promathia, feel free to say that.

All I'm saying is you are a fraction of the community, and to say that the expansion failed because of that is silly.

Edited, Sep 3rd 2011 11:47am by RamseySylph

Edited, Sep 3rd 2011 12:14pm by RamseySylph
#108 Sep 03 2011 at 3:29 PM Rating: Default
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RamseySylph wrote:
Perhaps after I directly responded to the points in your original post, you would have realized that I did in fact read your post

If you read the post, or at least understood what you read then you wouldn't have made mistakes and you wouldn't be trying to put words in my mouth.
RamseySylph wrote:
You understand that by pointing out that I had miss-read your post you are actually further proving my point? With those statistics, less than 0.5% of WoW's population completed the hardest encounter.

First of all, these numbers are representative of the least amount of players who could possibly have finished that encounter. If you did indeed read my post like you said you did, or even, if you had a few braincells you could figure out on your on that this data comes from complete guild runs only! It doesn't include any kills which didn't have every member in the instance being a part of the same guild. It also only counts once for a guild so further runs by the same guild with different players from that guild are also not a part of this data.

Secondly, how in the **** does your percentage now go down even though we added 25 man guilds totaling in the thousands. Learn to math ffs. Regardless, the point that needs no proving is that ZERO people completed AV as intended. None. Zip. Zilch. Whatever the number is for those who completed HLK, whatever the percentage; it will always be far greater than zero. Capeesh?

RamseySylph wrote:
Even if AV was defeatable, <5% of the population would have made a serious attempt on him, and less than that would have defeated him.

Yet another ridiculous, baseless statement pulled from your ***. No one is disputing that you have mastered this talent. Why you are bent on proving that no one can do it better than you is beyond me.

RamseySylph wrote:
Absolute Virtue is a tiny fraction of the content, which most players never actually cared about.

No one cares to challenge a mob they will never beat. It was clear to players very early on that they would never defeat it. I completely agree with you that 99% of the players of FFXI were smart enough to realize this and stay the **** away.

Quote:
If you want to argue that within the context of the extremely hardcore, bragging rights focused, end game community (If it seems like I am being contemptuous here, I'm not, I did end game as much as anyone else) that Absolute Virtue was the failure of Chains of Promathia, feel free to say that.

I personally didn't want to defeat AV for bragging rights. It represented to me, the first genuine challenge in XI before it was found out that it was made to remain undefeated. The gear it dropped was the best gear that anyone who wanted to excel at their job wanted. FFXIAH says that thousands of players own items that these jailers dropped. Mobs that people who weren't interested in the storylines, according to you, didn't care about killing. Why is that?

I did say it was a failure. In my opinion, what was supposed to be the 'cherry on the sundae' completely tainted the expansion. The fact that it went on for so long. The fact that even the people who found ways around what would be the 'correct' way of killing it didn't receive any drops from it(hint: they weren't included). The fact that SE talked about releasing a video of the developers killing it, delayed said video probably realizing that they couldn't actually kill it, fixed it and then doctored the video anyway just wreaked of failure to me. I was never so reluctant to purchase an expansion as I was after CoP and to support that, every expansion that followed was horrible until recently.



____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#109 Sep 03 2011 at 3:57 PM Rating: Decent
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You're very confused FilthyMcNasty, of course the number went down.

Why the **** would I add the number of HLK25 kills to the number of HLK10 kills?

I was only ever talking about HLK25, which I was using as an example as the hardest fight in the WotLK expansion. I miss read your first post, yes, I miss read one very small part where you mentioned HLK25, gave no numbers and then immediately mentioned the numbers for HLK10, which you only signified by putting (10) after the name of the achievement. Get a grip.

For those players playing to experience the content, most would be satisfied killing HLK10, or normal LK25, my point was that only a tiny fraction of the playerbase made any serious attempts on HLK25, less than 0.5% made a full guild attempt.

Even if you count PUGs (which there would be very few) and runs with a few miscellaneous non-guild members (which would be slightly higher) you're still looking at less than 5% of the population, and that's being generous.

You're still totally missing my point, which is ironic given how much you're hounding me about my reading comprehension.

I'm not saying that less than 5% of FFXI's population had any interest in any non-storyline related CoP content. FAR FROM IT.

I'm merely stating that the amount of players who would have made a serious attempt on AV let alone succeeded, even if he had been only extremely difficult, instead of brokenly impossible, would have been in the 5-10% of the player population range, again, this is being generous.

Did the fact that he was impossible discourage many players from trying? Yes. Yes it did. But if he had merely been extremely difficult, the number still would have remained under or around 10% tops.

Almost a year after WotG's release, less than ONE QUARTER of the playing population had even bothered to or been able to reach the final chapter and gain access to Al'Taieu.

Your anecdotal evidence about how so many people did HNM content in sea is just that, anecdotal. Yes, many players you knew and ran into did sea content, why? Because so did you! Durp?

Out of the 25% who had access to sea, I would bet at least 10-15% of those players either only did so to complete the story, and/or do Limbus. But even if that's not true, that's still only 25% of the game's population that could have potentially been making an attempt on AV.

And if you really think all 25% of those players would have made a serious attempt on AV even if he was again, merely extremely difficult and not impossible, you're fooling yourself.

My point is that whether or not CoP failed in any way as an expansion, Absolute Virtue had NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with it. This is a fact, from an objective standpoint, using numbers.

As I've already said, from the subjective standpoint of a single group of players, you could make your argument.

But for most of the playerbase, again, Absolute Virtue, whether he had been impossible or not, was an optional boss who dropped a few best in slot accessories and a nice GKT. His being impossible did not in any way detract from the experience of at least (proven) 75% of the game's players. The argument has been made repeatedly that in reality his impossible nature only affected 5-10% of the playerbase at most. But even if that is not true, and I can't give you facts proving that it is, only arguments, the fact still remains, 75% of the game's players were totally unaffected in any way.


Edited, Sep 3rd 2011 3:00pm by RamseySylph
#110 Sep 03 2011 at 7:13 PM Rating: Default
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RamseySylph wrote:
You're very confused...
I was only ever talking about HLK25

HLK is HLK for all intents and purposes and it drops the same ****. 25 man happens to drop more of it. Some people believe 25 mans to be easier, some think they're harder. Bottom line, who gives a ****.

RamseySylph wrote:
less than 0.5% made a full guild attempt

You continue to pull these numbers out of your ***. I will no longer dignify your ridiculous posts with a response. gfy


____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#111 Sep 03 2011 at 8:34 PM Rating: Default
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3,962 posts
FilthMcNasty wrote:
RamseySylph wrote:
You're very confused...
I was only ever talking about HLK25

HLK is HLK for all intents and purposes and it drops the same sh*t. 25 man happens to drop more of it. Some people believe 25 mans to be easier, some think they're harder. Bottom line, who gives a sh*t.

RamseySylph wrote:
less than 0.5% made a full guild attempt

You continue to pull these numbers out of your ***. I will no longer dignify your ridiculous posts with a response. gfy




25 man drops better versions of the 10 man stuff. My point. The only purpose to do HLK25 is to get a few pieces of better gear, there is no new content in doing it, the more you type the more you prove my analogy is correct.

HLK25 is only new content in that it is a more challenging fight with better drops. Just like AV is not really new content, you've already seen the Aern model, he's not part of the story. He's not in a new area. How do you not fathom this?

That number isn't made up, the number of guilds that completed HLK25 x 25 members = the number of players that for sure have completed HLK25. Divide that number by 11 million (a conservative estimate of the game's population at that time) you get LESS THAN HALF A PERCENT OF THE POPULATION.

You really shouldn't be arguing your point anymore, you're running in circles and calling me out on sound math.
#112 Sep 03 2011 at 9:12 PM Rating: Default
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RamseySylph wrote:
...the number of guilds that completed HLK25 x 25 members = the number of players that for sure have completed HLK25. Divide that number by 11 million (a conservative estimate of the game's population at that time) you get LESS THAN HALF A PERCENT OF THE POPULATION.

What number are you dividing by 11 million and where the **** did you come up with it? Cite a link with updated data or get the **** out.

RamseySylph wrote:
You really shouldn't be arguing your point anymore, you're running in circles and calling me out on sound math.

Your math is WRONG. Guilds have more than 25 players. They don't finish a raid and stop going, they run it week in and week out for months... usually with other members who also want gear. The 5665 number I posted is outdated, but even still it is just a RANKING. Each guild is ranked ONCE, regardless of how many times they complete the raid and with how many members. The ranking DOES NOT include people who pugged OR guild runs with 1 or more pugs. Your math is ******* wrong. You are stupid or stubborn, but either way since you refuse to acknowledge it, it's pointless to argue with you.

You fail to understand that no matter how much you compare it to WoW, the instance in WoW is not impossible. The content was made for people to experience it, no matter how few. If you wanted it, it was possible and that is not the case with the top tier boss in CoP.

You don't even consider the fact that most of those players are not even eligible to raid ICC. A large part of that 11 million don't do anything but arenas and battleground PvP. A large part of those 11 million are capped at lower levels to PvP in lower brackets. A fair amount of the players are also capped at level 70 to do raids from the Burning Crusade expansion. Even if you did have correct numbers, it is irrelevant. You're comparing whatever low percentage of players completed ICC to ZERO percent that completed AV.

TL;DR
[citation needed]
You keep pulling numbers from nowhere. Post a link that shows where you got this magical number. Otherwise you're just talking out your ***.



____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#113 Sep 03 2011 at 9:33 PM Rating: Excellent
How we'd get from PL to WoW.
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#114 Sep 03 2011 at 9:40 PM Rating: Decent
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StateAlchemist the Eccentric wrote:
How we'd get from PL to WoW.


Well first Chains of Promathia came up, then I made the mistake of inducing Pardo's Law by trying to use Heroic Lich King 25 as a comparison for Absolute Virtue, after FilthyMcCantComprehendMath tried to make the argument that Chains of Promathia was a failed expansion because Absolute Virtue was an impossible boss.

FilthMcNasty wrote:
No, it's a horrible example because HLK was defeated. IIRC it was roughly 1300 guilds that defeated HLK25. Go ahead and use whatever method you used to arrive at your conclusion for how many people defeated HLK 10, add them up and compare them to the ZERO people who downed AV. Feel better now?


1300 guilds x 25 members = 32,500 players

32,500 / 11,000,000 = 0.002954_

Roughly 0.3% if we assume each guild has 25 UNIQUE PLAYERS that completed HLK25.

Even if we assume that each 25 man guild had 50 unique players (Stupid assumption, most guilds will have maybe a handful of extra players for their main heroic runs, but I'll make it.)

That's 0.6% of the player population. Then if we assume five times that many players somehow randomly also completed HLK25 in PUGs, or partial PUGs, again, a stupid assumption, most 25 man guilds will run with the same 25 people, maybe, just maybe, having a few randoms on nights where they are missing someone, and oh wait, most of those randoms will be friends from other guilds who are on the same content and have probably already cleared it. But let's assume for the sake of argument that five times this many players completed it.

THAT'S A WHOPPING THREE PERCENT OF WOW'S OVER ELEVEN MILLION PLAYERS.

1300 guilds

50 unique members completing HLK 25

65,000 unique players total /

out of 11,000,000 unique players (conservative estimate)

= 0.6% population

x 5 = 3%

3% of the population

Three Percent.


If you still can't follow the math, please just stop responding to this thread, no one can help you. If you have a problem with the 11,000,000 players, go look on Google for figures around the end of the WotLK. Sorry for assuming you could do simple math with the figures you provided and a well known figure for active userbase in WoW.

Edited, Sep 3rd 2011 8:42pm by RamseySylph
#115 Sep 03 2011 at 10:03 PM Rating: Good
RamseySylph wrote:
StateAlchemist the Eccentric wrote:
How we'd get from PL to WoW.


Well first Chains of Promathia came up, then I made the mistake of inducing Pardo's Law by trying to use Heroic Lich King 25 as a comparison for Absolute Virtue, after FilthyMcCantComprehendMath tried to make the argument that Chains of Promathia was a failed expansion because Absolute Virtue was an impossible boss.


Oh. Well IMO, CoP had the best storyline of all the expansions although some of the fights were very unbalanced. I finished CoP pre-nerf, so I experienced this first hand. AV never impacted my feelings towards CoP, however I didn't like anything about AV and so I shied away from it for the most part. As far as using WoW as a comparison, I will stay out of that since I am biased.

I will say that I went farther in ZM and ToAU then CoP before I finally got a static to get CoP done. And finding a skilled enough group of players to do some of the fights was difficult as most of the people who had done it (and therefore at least knew what to do) had no desire to redo the fights to help.
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Humankind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something of equal value must be lost.
Data Center: Primal; Server: Ultros; Free Company: The Kraken Club; Grand Company: The Maelstrom; Chocobo: Kweh
#116 Sep 03 2011 at 10:09 PM Rating: Default
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4,144 posts
Ramsey, the info I pulled is not only outdated, but it DOES NOT represent all the players who have defeated HLK. Read this several times, out loud if you have to.

You're quick to point out that only 30% of XI players even started CoP, but yet you still want to use 11 million as if everyone who plays WoW was leveled to cap and participated in PvE content. No one disputes that WoW has or had 11 million subs. Take 30% of 11 million and then divide your fictional number of people who beat HLK by that. Still pointless and irrelevant.

Stop making assumptions and estimations. The only true math presented here is this:
Number of times AV defeated in CoP = 0
Thousands > Zero

Your whole point is based on your estimate of how many people you think wanted to defeat AV. A number you are unable to provide any sort of solid evidence for. It doesn't exist. You assume that because you stopped at Promathia that everyone else did or that they didn't care about anything beyond that. Another claim you cannot prove mathematically. The only math you need is right above this paragraph, but you refuse to address it. Go away.

Edited, Sep 4th 2011 12:10am by FilthMcNasty
____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#117 Sep 03 2011 at 11:13 PM Rating: Decent
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3,962 posts
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Ramsey, the info I pulled is not only outdated, but it DOES NOT represent all the players who have defeated HLK. Read this several times, out loud if you have to.

You're quick to point out that only 30% of XI players even started CoP, but yet you still want to use 11 million as if everyone who plays WoW was leveled to cap and participated in PvE content. No one disputes that WoW has or had 11 million subs. Take 30% of 11 million and then divide your fictional number of people who beat HLK by that. Still pointless and irrelevant.

Stop making assumptions and estimations. The only true math presented here is this:
Number of times AV defeated in CoP = 0
Thousands > Zero

Your whole point is based on your estimate of how many people you think wanted to defeat AV. A number you are unable to provide any sort of solid evidence for. It doesn't exist. You assume that because you stopped at Promathia that everyone else did or that they didn't care about anything beyond that. Another claim you cannot prove mathematically. The only math you need is right above this paragraph, but you refuse to address it. Go away.

Edited, Sep 4th 2011 12:10am by FilthMcNasty



The numbers are outdated? You provided the only number that may possibly be outdated.

I never said anything about 30% of XI players starting CoP either, again, kettle, black - reading comprehension.

I stated that YEARS after CoP was released, YEARS, this was the census after WotG, the second census after, that less than a quarter of FFXI's active user base had reached sea. This was after all sorts of nerfs to CoP.

The WoW numbers sure as **** are outdated, but the cap was raised and I couldn't give a flying **** how many people completed that content after the cap was raised and it was no longer difficult or relevant. Just like we're not using numbers to represent how many times AV has been killed since the cap hit 90 or how many players finished CoP when the cap was 90 and there were no level caps on the content.

It's totally irrelevant, it's long after the content was contemporary in both cases, and is not a good measure of success or statistically relevant.

YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY ******* CORRECT THAT I CAN'T PROVIDE EXACT NUMBERS ON HOW MANY PLAYERS DESIRED TO BEAT ABSOLUTE VIRTUE AND WOULD HAVE SERIOUSLY ATTEMPTED IT IF IT HAD BEEN POSSIBLE.

Wow, you can comprehend that I haven't done a study? Super. I still made an argument that is far stronger than yours that objectively the failure (whether or not there was one) of Chains of Promathia cannot be pinned on AV WHATSOEVER.

IT IS A FAR BIGGER FAILURE IN REALITY THAT ONLY A TINY FRACTION OF THE POPULATION EXPERIENCED THE CONTENT, ART ASSETS, AND STORY ASSETS CREATED THAT WERE GATED BEHIND VARIOUS PORTIONS OF THE NARRATIVE.

Absolute Virtue may have been a failure in its own right, but it is not, by any means, by any definition, other than your own subjective definition, the failure of the expansion over all.




Look. This isn't up for debate. The failure in the eyes of the development team, the failure in the eyes of the average player (for those to whom the expansion was a failure, myself not included, but I can play devil's advocate, apparently you can't put yourself into anyone's shoes but your own, which makes me wonder if you are actually a human, and not just a troll) is not pinned on Absolute Virtue.

That's the only thing I've been debating with you, all of my arguments have been in support of this one point. Yet all you can fixate on is the individual numbers and how they might be not exactly the exact numbers because I haven't done an adequate study.
#118 Sep 03 2011 at 11:13 PM Rating: Default
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Lots of double posts recently... and I'm not even hitting post twice or having any lag, whyyyyy Zam, why?

Edited, Sep 3rd 2011 10:15pm by RamseySylph
#119 Sep 03 2011 at 11:41 PM Rating: Default
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RamseySylph wrote:
This isn't up for debate. The failure in the eyes of the development team, the failure in the eyes of the average player (for those to whom the expansion was a failure, myself not included, but I can play devil's advocate, apparently you can't put yourself into anyone's shoes but your own, which makes me wonder if you are actually a human, and not just a troll) is not pinned on Absolute Virtue.

I don't have to put myself in anyone else's shoes. It's my ******* opinion. You are too stupid to follow that. You went off on probably the biggest tangent about possibly the dumbest comparison of XI and WoW I've ever seen, yet you think I'm the troll? You should probably find the definition of that word before you sling it around.

Quote:
That's the only thing I've been debating with you, all of my arguments have been in support of this one point. Yet all you can fixate on is the individual numbers and how they might be not exactly the exact numbers because I haven't done an adequate study.

The only number I used, the only number that has anything to do with my opinion which you disagree with, is the only number with any meaning here. You could study all day long. My opinion will still remain. Just like the big goose eggs up on the scoreboard for CoP. Feel free to have the last word. Probably the only way you'll stfu.
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HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#120 Sep 03 2011 at 11:50 PM Rating: Default
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
RamseySylph wrote:
This isn't up for debate. The failure in the eyes of the development team, the failure in the eyes of the average player (for those to whom the expansion was a failure, myself not included, but I can play devil's advocate, apparently you can't put yourself into anyone's shoes but your own, which makes me wonder if you are actually a human, and not just a troll) is not pinned on Absolute Virtue.

I don't have to put myself in anyone else's shoes. It's my @#%^ing opinion. You are too stupid to follow that. You went off on probably the biggest tangent about possibly the dumbest comparison of XI and WoW I've ever seen, yet you think I'm the troll? You should probably find the definition of that word before you sling it around.

Quote:
That's the only thing I've been debating with you, all of my arguments have been in support of this one point. Yet all you can fixate on is the individual numbers and how they might be not exactly the exact numbers because I haven't done an adequate study.

The only number I used, the only number that has anything to do with my opinion which you disagree with, is the only number with any meaning here. You could study all day long. My opinion will still remain. Just like the big goose eggs up on the scoreboard for CoP. Feel free to have the last word. Probably the only way you'll stfu.


I already conceded that you may have your opinion, in the first post of this back and forth. If you weren't arguing a subjective fact, you should have just taken that at face value and shut up.

I was never arguing an opinion, but **** I'll go there, your opinion is wrong.

If it makes you feel better.

Obviously it won't since you can't even keep a consistent opinion about whether or not a set of numbers has any significance to you. One moment you're picking at one set of numbers, then you're stating they don't matter.

The reason the HLK25/AV tangent ended up being so big is because you ******* and moaned like a child about the numbers, because you were too ******* lazy or stupid to do the math yourself, all of my numbers were correct.

It was an analogy, meant to help you understand that only a tiny fraction of the playerbase gives a **** about the most hardcore, end game fight, that has is only a minor piece of content despite its difficulty.

If you can't already understand that the hardcore makes up a minority of a game's audience, and that the audience within that hardcore audience that desires to fight the strongest of the strongest bosses and would actually make a serious attempt on them is even smaller, you're hopeless.

You may have your subjective opinion that AV was the failure of CoP, but it doesn't make it objectively any less correct.

Edited, Sep 3rd 2011 10:55pm by RamseySylph
#121 Sep 04 2011 at 12:46 AM Rating: Good
Can we at least keep in mind that while AV may not have been defeated in the intended manner, it has been defeated plenty of times using unconventional means(not sure if this has been brought up just been kinda skimming posts). SE also never intended ninja to be a tank, but, well, yeah. Not everything happens as intended.
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#122 Sep 04 2011 at 2:04 AM Rating: Default
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RamseySylph wrote:
The reason the HLK25/AV tangent ended up being so big is because you ******* and moaned like a child about the numbers, because you were too @#%^ing lazy or stupid to do the math yourself, all of my numbers were correct.

Actually, no. It ended up being big because you thought for some reason that it was a valid analogy. WotLK would have been a failure if LK wasn't defeatable. Point blank. Blizzard however is willing to admit when they overtune mobs and they reduce the difficulty to a reasonable level. SE on the other hand does nothing. It probably wasn't until the development team attempted to make their video that they realized they couldn't beat it either. They still did nothing.

I didn't ***** and moan about your numbers. I pointed out immediately after posting those stats that they were incorrect. I'm not lazy, I just don't see the point in doing math with incorrect values, coming up with more incorrect values and then making myself look like a ******* ******* by telling someone else that it's correct when it obviously isn't. I'll save you the trouble of going back to page two to look for yourself...
Filth wrote:
5,665 guilds are listed as having defeated HLK. Guilds are only ranked once so considering that guilds who progressed with more than one 10 man group cleared it again for other players in their guilds, those attempts were not counted. PUG groups or guild runs with any pugged players also are not counted.

So you then take clearly stated false numbers, work some math and the analogy still has nothing to do with the subject. Bravo! Well played.

.005% of people who play WoW have beaten HLK. That's great Ramsay. Now explain what the @#%^ that has to do with SE failing to develop an expansion... I didn't think so.


StateAlchemist the Eccentric wrote:
Can we at least keep in mind that while AV may not have been defeated in the intended manner, it has been defeated plenty of times using unconventional means(not sure if this has been brought up just been kinda skimming posts).


Using ninja to tank is just taking obvious advantage of your spells to keep from taking damage. It is a far cry from abusing the 'wall of justice' to avoid being attacked from a mob that is supposed to be able to damage you otherwise. Not a great comparison. The 'wall of justice' is not a viable option and players have been stripped of drops and banned for such actions. AV was buffed for this reason making it even more annoying. I suppose you could solve any problem you had with any mob by tossing half a dozen kraken club DRKs at it, but where is the challenge in that?

Edited, Sep 4th 2011 4:12am by FilthMcNasty
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#123 Sep 04 2011 at 2:37 AM Rating: Good
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You're really, really, bad at comprehension.

I am only...

Only

ONLY

ONLY

ONLY

ONLY

talking about HLK25 in my analogy.

ONLY HLK25, which is not new content when compared to normal LK25, HLK10, normal LK10, etc. The only significance HLK25 has is it was the hardest fight of the expansion.

Do you understand yet? 99% of WoW's populace would have been totally unaffected if HLK25 had been impossible. I'm not talking about ANY OTHER VERSION OF THE LICH KING.

ABSOLUTE VIRTUE IS EQUIVALENT TO HLK 25, THE FINAL BOSS, NOT ANY BOSSES UP TO THAT POINT, NOT ANY OTHER VERSIONS OF THE LICH KING.

Reasons they are a good analogy for one another?

  • They are both the hardest fights in the expansion.
  • Neither use new art assets.
  • Neither take place in a new environment.
  • Neither present any kind of new or unique narrative elements.
  • Neither are a gate to any new content.
  • Most of each game's playerbase couldn't give half a **** about either.


Point, set, match. You failed this entire time to see the entire point of the analogy, and made such a big deal out of it, and have been too stubborn to wrap your head around it, thus why it has dragged on for so long.

AV was not nor can it be used as a measure of failure for CoP, it did not impact nearly enough of the game's population, nor was it a large investment for the development team.

If HLK25 had been impossible, the same things could have been said.

Due to their equivalent nature, I was merely using the statistics to show about how many FFXI players would have given half a crawler's *** about even doing AV, had he been defeatable using normal measures.
#124 Sep 04 2011 at 7:03 AM Rating: Excellent
FilthMcNasty wrote:
I suppose you could solve any problem you had with any mob by tossing half a dozen kraken club DRKs at it, but where is the challenge in that?


Finding half-a-dozen Dark Knights that have Kraken Clubs, are willing to go, aren't just a RMT-PL'd DRK who bought Gil to get the K Club and have no skill what-so-ever, or aren't going to ninja-lot drops.

Besides that...not much of a challenge...however very fun to watch. ^^;
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#125 Sep 04 2011 at 11:37 AM Rating: Good
StateAlchemist the Eccentric wrote:
I love how I can hit 'x' and keep running and end up logging 30 yalms from the tree. Go go gadget extendo-hatchet!
I wish I knew this trick when daddy longlegs used to hang out near a leve tree.

Oh, and Smiley: popcorn at the last page or so.


Edited, Sep 4th 2011 1:46pm by Lubriderm
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#126 Sep 04 2011 at 1:04 PM Rating: Decent
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RamseySylph wrote:
You're really, really, bad at comprehension.

I am only...talking about HLK25 in my analogy.

Irrelevant. You are comparing something which is difficult, but possible to something that is impossible. Not sure why you don't see it, but that alone is why your analogy fails.
Ramsey wrote:
99% of WoW's populace would have been totally unaffected if HLK25 had been impossible.

Inaccurate and irrelevant. You are creating a hypothetical and comparing it to a fact. If 100% of the population had been concerned with downing HLK, then they all would have had a reasonable chance given that they were able to find a group with the same goal. If you apply this same hypothetical to XI, it was still impossible to defeat AV.
Quote:
ABSOLUTE VIRTUE IS EQUIVALENT TO HLK 25

Again, this is false. The fact that people were able to defeat Arthas is proof. Try again?
Ramsey wrote:
Reasons they are a good analogy for one another?

They are both the hardest fights in the expansion.
Neither use new art assets.
Neither take place in a new environment.
Neither present any kind of new or unique narrative elements.
Neither are a gate to any new content.
Most of each game's playerbase couldn't give half a sh*t about either.


1)There is a difference between difficult and impossible.

2+3)What area the battle takes place in or what skin a boss wears is irrelevant to the discussion.

4)You obviously never completed HLK because it does relate to the story. As if it wasn't already clear enough that you were speaking about that which you don't know anything about.

5)The last time I checked gear and items are considered content. No one could speak on AV because it hadn't been done, but HLK was part of the story which is considered content.

6)My opinion doesn't take into account how much of the rest of the population of XI wanted to clear that content. I stated why I wanted to down AV and it has nothing at all to do with how many other people give a sh*t. I will point out that many of the people who would have given a sh*t were turned away based on the fact that it was not possible.

You're arguing over an opinion. My personal opinion. It doesn't take into account the thoughts or needs of the rest of the playerbase. I really don't care how many other people wanted to down AV. It was a personal goal. The fact that it was impossible and the way it was dealt with turned me off. I don't place the blame on AV, I place the blame on SE. They were unable to create a challenging boss fight, they came off as offended that the majority of the playerbase that was interested thought they had overshot their mark and they refused to do anything about it. CoP was an expansion with a great storyline that was poorly designed and left a bad taste.

Edited, Sep 4th 2011 3:07pm by FilthMcNasty
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#127 Sep 04 2011 at 1:09 PM Rating: Decent
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This is a bad idea imo.

All of the starter zones and mid range zones will be packed with lvl 50s AOE bombing for lvl 5's.

Take FFXI outside Bastok.
Lvl 7 mage casts dia on bee 1
Lvl 7 mage trains a mass of bees using DOTs
Lvl 7 mage runs to Lvl 50
Lvl 50 casts blizzaga
Bee 1- 12 dies
lvl 7 gains 600 xp points
Rinse repeat
if bees are slow respawn move to lizards and then back during respawn.

Now imagine 3 people doing that in the same area. The respawn timers had better be 3 seconds.
Even if they respawn in seconds do you really want to compete for xp at lvl 3?
Even if they killed 1 at a time you as a non PL player would be standing around waiting for a respawn or fighting over claims.

I think they will find out real fast people can't play the game with this kind of PL system in effect. You will either need to PL or struggle thru trying to find mobs for quests, xp etx.

Anyone else see this happening?
#128 Sep 04 2011 at 1:11 PM Rating: Excellent
Screenshot


I mean really.
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Edited, Mar 21st 2011 2:14pm by Darqflame Lock Thread: Because Lubriderm is silly... ~ de geso

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I know what a glory hole is, but I wasn't sure what the business part was in reference to.

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#129 Sep 04 2011 at 1:20 PM Rating: Good
Daishihan wrote:

This is a bad idea imo.

All of the starter zones and mid range zones will be packed with lvl 50s AOE bombing for lvl 5's.

Take FFXI outside Bastok.
Lvl 7 mage casts dia on bee 1
Lvl 7 mage trains a mass of bees using DOTs
Lvl 7 mage runs to Lvl 50
Lvl 50 casts blizzaga
Bee 1- 12 dies
lvl 7 gains 600 xp points
Rinse repeat
if bees are slow respawn move to lizards and then back during respawn.

Now imagine 3 people doing that in the same area. The respawn timers had better be 3 seconds.
Even if they respawn in seconds do you really want to compete for xp at lvl 3?
Even if they killed 1 at a time you as a non PL player would be standing around waiting for a respawn or fighting over claims.

I think they will find out real fast people can't play the game with this kind of PL system in effect. You will either need to PL or struggle thru trying to find mobs for quests, xp etx.

Anyone else see this happening?

Have you even played FFXIV? You can't train mobs like you can in FFXI. They have territories, and automatically return to them if they go outside its boundary. And you don't need to compete for XP at Rank 1-10. A few Levequests and you shoot straight to Rank 10. And Levequests are instanced.

Edited, Sep 4th 2011 3:21pm by StateAlchemist
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#130 Sep 04 2011 at 1:30 PM Rating: Good
All in all, I still think the best PL method will still be just giving cures to people fighting stuff that is just kinda above what they should be doing.
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Edited, Mar 21st 2011 2:14pm by Darqflame Lock Thread: Because Lubriderm is silly... ~ de geso

Almalieque wrote:
I know what a glory hole is, but I wasn't sure what the business part was in reference to.

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#131 Sep 04 2011 at 1:43 PM Rating: Excellent
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What the **** happened to this thread?

I don't know anything about WoW, but all I can say is Absolute Virtue may have been included in CoP, but as far as I'm concerned he was a "part" of CoP.

Which is why he was designed, and subsequently redesigned a few times, to be impossible. It was SE's own personal form of trolling. But his insta-cast meteor-ga and chainspell two-hours didn't ruin my enjoyment of CoP.

CoP was easily the best storyline in XI. Plus, having beaten it pre-nerfs, it was a fun challenge despite the ridiculous level caps.

#132 Sep 04 2011 at 1:46 PM Rating: Decent
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Sephrick wrote:
What the **** happened to this thread?

I don't know anything about WoW, but all I can say is Absolute Virtue may have been included in CoP, but as far as I'm concerned he was a "part" of CoP.

Which is why he was designed, and subsequently redesigned a few times, to be impossible. It was SE's own personal form of trolling. But his insta-cast meteor-ga and chainspell two-hours didn't ruin my enjoyment of CoP.

CoP was easily the best storyline in XI. Plus, having beaten it pre-nerfs, it was a fun challenge despite the ridiculous level caps.



There's a troll in this thread, and he can't understand math, analogies, or the concept of a objectivity. That's what happened.
#133 Sep 04 2011 at 1:53 PM Rating: Excellent
We really can't just drop it?
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Edited, Mar 21st 2011 2:14pm by Darqflame Lock Thread: Because Lubriderm is silly... ~ de geso

Almalieque wrote:
I know what a glory hole is, but I wasn't sure what the business part was in reference to.

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#134 Sep 04 2011 at 10:30 PM Rating: Decent
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RamseySylph wrote:
There's a troll in this thread, and he can't understand math, analogies, or the concept of a objectivity. That's what happened.

If anyone derailed this thread it was you, potna.

I understand math, but the numbers you use are fabricated and don't come from any source you are willing to cite. Regardless, they don't mean anything in context of this discussion. Your analogy has nothing at all to do with my opinion of SE's failure to properly develop their expansion.

My opinion is completely objective. Anyone would agree that creating a boss that no one can beat and never addressing it as a problem; even going so far as to fault the players for not being able to do it, that's just poor form. I have stated several times in this thread and several others that CoP was SE's best expansion in terms of storyline. The finale of CoP tainted the experience for me and that has nothing to do with any personal prejudice against SE or any of the players of XI. It has everything to do with AV and how that whole situation was handled.

You are entitled to your opinion just as anyone else is, but neither your fictional math nor your poor analogy take anything away from my personal opinion or the rationale behind it. Just because XX% of the playerbase doesn't feel the same way doesn't mean it isn't a valid gripe. Let it go man.

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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#135 Sep 04 2011 at 11:38 PM Rating: Good
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sandpark wrote:
The bigger issue shouldn't even be if powerleveling is ok.
The bigger issue is why would anyone want to reach endgame faster?
1.The content is boring or severly lacking on the journey there.


It's a given nowadays that MMOs are all about end-game. Heck, there have been attempts like Fury that give nothing but end-game and erase the grinding entirely.
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#136 Sep 05 2011 at 12:57 AM Rating: Default
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Khornette wrote:
sandpark wrote:
The bigger issue shouldn't even be if powerleveling is ok.
The bigger issue is why would anyone want to reach endgame faster?
1.The content is boring or severly lacking on the journey there.


It's a given nowadays that MMOs are all about end-game. Heck, there have been attempts like Fury that give nothing but end-game and erase the grinding entirely.


The fact that most games take this approach doesn't necessarily mean it's a good idea.

Games are about fun, if you can provide a lot of fun content along the journey, that only makes the game better. Not every decision one game makes, is perfect for another.

I don't disagree with this change, I don't mind, but it's dangerous to talk about the approach MMOs are taking to the journey vs end of game content. If we tell the developers that's what we want, it's all we're ever going to get.

Though if you honestly enjoy that approach, more power to you. I for one, would like to see more content that I can enjoy as I go, not just at the end.
#137 Sep 05 2011 at 8:49 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Though if you honestly enjoy that approach, more power to you. I for one, would like to see more content that I can enjoy as I go, not just at the end.


Trouble is, and XI proved this well, unless a dev level caps stuff the player base will demand doing everything at cap anyway. Time is precious so people will remove as many x factors as they can to guarantee a better chance at success.

So a dev has to make a choice to make all their content like CoP, or to make a short leveling experience with a lot of things to do at end game. A dev's ideas aren't the only thing to consider.

#138 Sep 05 2011 at 12:11 PM Rating: Decent
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Sephrick wrote:
Quote:
Though if you honestly enjoy that approach, more power to you. I for one, would like to see more content that I can enjoy as I go, not just at the end.


Trouble is, and XI proved this well, unless a dev level caps stuff the player base will demand doing everything at cap anyway. Time is precious so people will remove as many x factors as they can to guarantee a better chance at success.

So a dev has to make a choice to make all their content like CoP, or to make a short leveling experience with a lot of things to do at end game. A dev's ideas aren't the only thing to consider.



That's not really the case. There are systems that allow for contributions from players of various levels, like Campaign. Take the basic concept, expand it to the scale of Rift's Rift System (featuring large style campaign invasions and small raids), keep in all of the support ops etc. and you can easily create a system that is friendly to both higher and lower level players in different ways.

Content up until the cap needn't necessarily be capped, but there needs to be excellent party building tools. A cap isn't a bad idea though, I think the key is, give people the option, and definitely scale their gear adequately. Choosing to do a mission or dungeon capped, would present a harder challenge and better rewards, etc.

These are just things off the top of my head that provide an enjoyable leveling experience, I would hope an entire development team could think outside the box long enough to come up with a few more.
#139 Sep 05 2011 at 1:18 PM Rating: Good
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Khornette wrote:
sandpark wrote:
The bigger issue shouldn't even be if powerleveling is ok.
The bigger issue is why would anyone want to reach endgame faster?
1.The content is boring or severly lacking on the journey there.


It's a given nowadays that MMOs are all about end-game. Heck, there have been attempts like Fury that give nothing but end-game and erase the grinding entirely.


No, It's a given that most last generation and older mmos are all about endgame.
Any game that removes the leveling process completely is doomed to fail if it relies on long term subscriptions. Modern upcoming mmos are both making the journey more content rich and full of variety. As well as offering endgame.

TOR Journey:
Up to 200 hours of mostly unique class story per class.
Around 60 novels worth of voice over.
Choices that slighlty alter how your character progresses and your story plays out.
Multiple paths of progression from 1-cap aka variety=
Arena pvp
Open world pvp lakes
Space combat missions
World quests(Massive PvE)
Flashpoints(multiplayer quests with a rich story, not fed-ex),
Craft(your companions do this)
unlock 5 companions who craft/do missions/act as sub classes
Multiplayer dialogue wheel
The only thing really confined to endgame may be raids, not sure though.
Main thing TOR is doing is maintaining familiarity with their rpgs. If you play Bioware offline rpgs. You at least know what to expect with the class story. You can grind regualr mobs if you wish. But it isn't a main feature of the game.

Guild Wars2:
Personal Story(Unique story per race that affect how the world npcs perceive you)
60 novels worth of voice over
Arena PvP
World Vs World vs World Pvp aka 3 server pvp
Dynamic Events(1500 chaining events that start visually replace traditional text based quest givers)
Craft
Underwater Combat and missions(Not tacked on)
And much more. All available from day one. Again the only thing locked into endgame at launch is dungeons. GW2 doesn't have traditional raids currently.
Who knows how the game's turnout will end up. But they are letting you have fun from day one,challenging old mmo bad aspects, all for the cost of buying only the box. You can grind regular mobs if you want. But it isn't a major feature fo the game.

There are a few more mmos, with most content accessible day one.
Besides a subscription price. This everything cool at endgame mentality, no variety during the journey is why XI remained niche.

One thing I never understood is why FFXI capped at 500k subs? But their offline rpgs continue to sell 1,2,3,4,5, and 10 million.

Is that only because of the sub model?
Or because the game is designed to be more of an mmo with the FF lore, than an FF game first. The answer is quite clear. It's a bit of both.

It is the pacing of variety of content. And overall while XI was good. It doesn't really play or feel remarkable similar to the traditionl FF universe gameplay wise.
I think the only FF game besides XI that felt similar to an auto attack mmo was 12, if my memory serves me right. All the other games used some form of atb, ct, etc.


I like monster grinding from time to time. But most players don't play rpgs to spam regular mobs in between cities and events.
They mainly play to see the next big cool event or story to access.

Either make the journey worthwhile. Or shrink it if all the content is at endgame.

Edited, Sep 5th 2011 3:21pm by sandpark
#140 Sep 06 2011 at 11:21 AM Rating: Good
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
CoP was a failure. It was a great story, but the expansion was capped off by an encounter with a boss that no one has figured out how to defeat(as intended) to this day. How many years has it been? 6? 7?

If I see another AV in the first expansion I will personally hunt Yoshi down and punch him in the throat.


I'm pretty sure AV's been slain many times by zombieing blue mages with cannonball.


Additionally, how is having an anselary boss that' nye impossible to kill a failure for an expansion?

It's one of my favorite parts of FFXI. The fact that there are just some things I will NEVER accomplish. I will never have a relic, Kill AV or Pandy Warden, never complete Einherjar, won't have a mythic weapon or whatever the abyssea ultimate weapons are, and I will never get an complete Usukane set.

These are accomplishments for those who do it. They are what motivate the hardest of the hardcore and, by association, everyone less hardcore all the way to the casual.

I would say that is one of the hugest things missing from this game. I can't think of one piece of equipment that I could see someone wearing and feel confident in their ability.
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#141 Sep 07 2011 at 7:22 PM Rating: Good
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Sephrick wrote:
Quote:
Though if you honestly enjoy that approach, more power to you. I for one, would like to see more content that I can enjoy as I go, not just at the end.


Trouble is, and XI proved this well, unless a dev level caps stuff the player base will demand doing everything at cap anyway. Time is precious so people will remove as many x factors as they can to guarantee a better chance at success.

So a dev has to make a choice to make all their content like CoP, or to make a short leveling experience with a lot of things to do at end game. A dev's ideas aren't the only thing to consider.

A bit of faulty logic there, but considering how FFXI is now I can see why people can believe this.

The problem with low-mid game content isn't that players will just max themselves out to do it, but rather the leveling process is so fast that forcing yourself to stop just to be at the appropriate level for the content is personal preference at best, but at worst is just a silly attempt of adding artificial difficulty. Why do just a few CoP missions at level 30 when you could get to 60-90 and go all the way?

This actually wasn't the case at the beginning of CoP when just being level 75 was still considered a novelty, mainly because the playerbase was dumb and thought IT++ mobs were the best EXP mobs ever, and we were nowhere near as tech-savvy with fSTR and pDIF. People of all level ranges would group together to do content, and when you weren't at a high enough level they'd drop from party and start leveling.

The problem with CoP actually wasn't with CoP itself, or that people didn't have the time. Rather it was the game evolved and so did the playerbase. CoP is old content and while I do regard it as the best expansion in terms of it's story, it's really insignificant to everything else in the game. Thus, treating it differently from other expansions and keeping the level caps did nothing but turn off players.

This leads into FFXIV's direction on focusing on endgame. Personally, I am fine with this, but if the meat of the content is going to be at endgame, then I don't really see a point in making us level from R1 to R50 in the first place. The "player needs to learn their job" argument is flawed and illogical. EXP grind parties are hardly similar to endgame events and anyone who is serious about their job will learn about it. So I'm of the opinion that there needs to be a reason for R1-R49 to exist.
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#142 Sep 07 2011 at 9:35 PM Rating: Decent
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Louiscool wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
CoP was a failure. It was a great story, but the expansion was capped off by an encounter with a boss that no one has figured out how to defeat(as intended) to this day. How many years has it been? 6? 7?

If I see another AV in the first expansion I will personally hunt Yoshi down and punch him in the throat.

I'm pretty sure AV's been slain many times by zombieing blue mages with cannonball.

Note the bolded part of my statement. So sending droves of weakened players at a mob until it dies is the intended way to defeat AV? What the **** is a blue mage? What is a cannonball?
Louiscool wrote:
Additionally, how is having an anselary boss that' nye impossible to kill a failure for an expansion?

You mean ancillary? Just about anything qualifies depending on your goals. Some people had the goal of clearing CoP for the story. Some couldn't care less and just wanted their ring. Personally, I wanted the challenge of beating the jailers and AV. Nigh means nearly. AV was completely impossible unless you either bugged it or pinned it. The bottom line is that regardless of if you think it was only supplemental content, it was horrible design. Instead of addressing the problem SE pointed the finger at the players. Failure.
Louiscool wrote:
They are what motivate the hardest of the hardcore and, by association, everyone less hardcore all the way to the casual.

The only thing that any of these accomplishments required was a competent, organized and fairly well geared group of people who were also motivated to challenge the content. PW, Einherjar, Mythic weapons and salvage gear all had yet to be introduced at that point.


Edited, Sep 7th 2011 11:36pm by FilthMcNasty
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#143 Sep 08 2011 at 9:15 AM Rating: Excellent
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3,530 posts
RamseySylph wrote:
I was merely using the statistics to show about how many FFXI players would have given half a crawler's *** about even doing AV


"I don't give half a crawler's ***!" lol, win. XD
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"... he called to himself a wizard, named Gallery, hoping by this means to escape the paying of the fifteen hundred crowns..." (Machen 15)

"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#144 Sep 08 2011 at 9:22 AM Rating: Good
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3,530 posts
sandpark wrote:
TOR Journey:
Around 60 novels worth of voice over.
....
Guild Wars2:
60 novels worth of voice over


I see that you're trying to stress the volume of content other MMOs are promising, but you're really kidding yourself if you think that playing through the Guild Wars sequel and a Star Wars MMO is like listening to 120 audiobooks.


Edited, Sep 10th 2011 2:17am by KaneKitty
____________________________
"... he called to himself a wizard, named Gallery, hoping by this means to escape the paying of the fifteen hundred crowns..." (Machen 15)

"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#145 Sep 08 2011 at 1:17 PM Rating: Default
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
CoP was a failure. It was a great story, but the expansion was capped off by an encounter with a boss that no one has figured out how to defeat(as intended) to this day. How many years has it been? 6? 7?

If I see another AV in the first expansion I will personally hunt Yoshi down and punch him in the throat.

I'm pretty sure AV's been slain many times by zombieing blue mages with cannonball.

Note the bolded part of my statement. So sending droves of weakened players at a mob until it dies is the intended way to defeat AV? What the **** is a blue mage? What is a cannonball?


I can't tell if you're being sarcastic. If not, I take it you quit FFXI around 2004? As such... please stop speaking with FFXI authority since you clearly have none.
Quote:

Louiscool wrote:
Additionally, how is having an anselary boss that' nye impossible to kill a failure for an expansion?

You mean ancillary? Just about anything qualifies depending on your goals. Some people had the goal of clearing CoP for the story. Some couldn't care less and just wanted their ring. Personally, I wanted the challenge of beating the jailers and AV. Nigh means nearly. AV was completely impossible unless you either bugged it or pinned it. The bottom line is that regardless of if you think it was only supplemental content, it was horrible design. Instead of addressing the problem SE pointed the finger at the players. Failure.


Wow, grammar humor. That is original. You do know that correcting someone's very minor grammar mistakes in an internet forum is the lowest form of comedy. Lower than mimes. It's also the least likely to win you the internet argument. I type fast and rarely double check my posts because I'm at work, if you must know.

To your point, it dropped incredible items, and SE did, technically, beat AV in a video the correct way. They did not, however, reveal how.

So it is the players fault. Just like defeating Alexander is done by kneeling in front of him as he does some move. It's one of the few challenges in FFXI that isn't bested by throwing my BLMs at it or by a team of zerging kraken club DRKs.

Quote:

Louiscool wrote:
They are what motivate the hardest of the hardcore and, by association, everyone less hardcore all the way to the casual.

The only thing that any of these accomplishments required was a competent, organized and fairly well geared group of people who were also motivated to challenge the content. PW, Einherjar, Mythic weapons and salvage gear all had yet to be introduced at that point.

And BILLIONS of gil and years of dynamis runs. What does this have to do with "not being implemented yet"? As if we are having a conversation about a snapshot of FFXI from the moment they released CoP and no further?

Your argument skills could use some ranking up. Try practicing over in 4chan or maybe Gamefaqs.


Edited, Sep 8th 2011 3:37pm by Louiscool
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#146 Sep 08 2011 at 2:53 PM Rating: Decent
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4,144 posts
Louiscool wrote:
I can't tell if you're being sarcastic. If not, I take it you quit FFXI around 2004? As such... please stop speaking with FFXI authority since you clearly have none.

I'm not being sarcastic at all. I cleared all missions and jailers in the CoP expansion through several nights of attempts at AV and several nights spent farming my levels back in meripo. The point that I was clearly trying to make was that there was no Cannonball spell nor a BLU job with which to cast it prior to the release of the following expansion.
Louiscool wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
You mean ancillary? Just about anything qualifies depending on your goals. Some people had the goal of clearing CoP for the story. Some couldn't care less and just wanted their ring. Personally, I wanted the challenge of beating the jailers and AV. Nigh means nearly. AV was completely impossible unless you either bugged it or pinned it.
Wow, grammar humor. That is original. You do know that correcting someone's very minor grammar mistakes in an internet forum is the lowest form of comedy. Lower than mimes. It's also the least likely to win you the internet argument. I type fast and rarely double check my posts because I'm at work, if you must know.

I'm not sure how you mistook that for grammar humor. I just wanted to make sure I understood you. If I were mocking you for misspelling which I often do myself, I'd have just said "Learn how to @#%^ing spell" or something to that effect.

The fact still remains that regardless of if SE had a way to beat AV or not, it was broken. They never admitted it, they never fixed it(while relevant) and they never apologized for it. Odds were on them not knowing how to defeat it themselves and the shaky excuse of a walkthrough video supports that theory. It is my opinion that it wasn't handled well and it left a bad taste in my mouth. Not sure why people keep wanting to argue my opinion when I've provided more than enough support for my feelings on the matter.

Louiscool wrote:
And BILLIONS of gil and years of dynamis runs. What does this have to do with "not being implemented yet"? As if we are having a conversation about a snapshot of FFXI from the moment they released CoP and no further?

Your argument skills could use some ranking up. Try practicing over in 4chan or maybe Gamefaqs.

RNG willing, it takes several months and only millions of gil to get a relic but that's beside the point and it should have it's own separate argument.

The idea of "not being implemented yet" makes complete sense here. Why would the answer to defeating a boss from a previous expansion be a spell and a job associated with the following expansion? How is that anything elst but bad design? Feel free to spam the red arrow and blast me for some attack you perceived which was never there, but if you don't respond to anything else in my post; please try to think about and answer those questions. This isn't an argument. It is me providing very solid points about why I maintain my opinion about one expansion in FFXI. I don't use either of the websites you suggested and I don't go around these forums looking to pick a fight. If my opinion upsets you then that's your problem.



Edited, Sep 8th 2011 4:54pm by FilthMcNasty
____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#147 Sep 08 2011 at 7:38 PM Rating: Good
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As long as we can get the /blockaid command in FF14 I don't care about power-leveling either.

There are some personal challenges I set myself, where I don't want to be helped.
Also, if in a Party, I want party-play, not 5 slackers and one level 50+ who does all the work.
I hated PL in FF11 as I didn't play for PL, I played to have challenge with a nice group.

My take on it.
-- Francois
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[ffxisig]21378[/ffxisig]

Samuriko -> http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/cluster/sig.pl?char=91959

Mesmira -> http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/cluster/sig.pl?char=173688

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Interesting Quote :
All of you should not forget FF11 is supposed to be a game, not an olympic competition.
#148 Sep 08 2011 at 7:58 PM Rating: Decent
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FrancoisX wrote:
As long as we can get the /blockaid command in FF14 I don't care about power-leveling either.

I don't think there is any plan to implement this and in this case it wouldn't work well anyway. Sure you could keep people from acting on your character, but the main changes being brought about here are that people can attack mobs which are claimed by you. Probably won't see anything to keep someone from coming along and one-shot a low level mob you might be killing. No real reason to have that feature anyhow.
____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#149 Sep 08 2011 at 11:57 PM Rating: Decent
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I would have to agree. The people that even consider using /blockaid are not the people that will suck at their jobs even if they do get PL'ed from time to time.
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#150 Sep 09 2011 at 6:38 AM Rating: Decent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
The idea of "not being implemented yet" makes complete sense here. Why would the answer to defeating a boss from a previous expansion be a spell and a job associated with the following expansion? How is that anything elst but bad design? Feel free to spam the red arrow and blast me for some attack you perceived which was never there, but if you don't respond to anything else in my post; please try to think about and answer those questions. This isn't an argument. It is me providing very solid points about why I maintain my opinion about one expansion in FFXI. I don't use either of the websites you suggested and I don't go around these forums looking to pick a fight. If my opinion upsets you then that's your problem.


I don't appreciate you using logic in a civil manner. What is wrong with you, this is creeping me out.


My point on the relic weapons, mythic weapons etc was unrelated to AV. I was just mentioning that even though I will never attain any such things, I would want things like that to return in FFXIV. I can see your opinion on AV, but my opinion is that I never tried or even wanted to try because I'm more casual in my play, so it didn't ruin it for me.
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#151 Sep 09 2011 at 12:43 PM Rating: Good
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Louiscool wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
The idea of "not being implemented yet" makes complete sense here. Why would the answer to defeating a boss from a previous expansion be a spell and a job associated with the following expansion? How is that anything elst but bad design? Feel free to spam the red arrow and blast me for some attack you perceived which was never there, but if you don't respond to anything else in my post; please try to think about and answer those questions. This isn't an argument. It is me providing very solid points about why I maintain my opinion about one expansion in FFXI. I don't use either of the websites you suggested and I don't go around these forums looking to pick a fight. If my opinion upsets you then that's your problem.


I don't appreciate you using logic in a civil manner. What is wrong with you, this is creeping me out.


I'm almost always civil when having a discussion unless I'm dealing with people who I know are smart enough to understand a concept or idea I put forth, but they are unwilling to do so because they feel the need to try and protect SE. My feeling on that stems from players resistance to calling SE out on their mistakes for whatever reason. Even if I have had differences with another poster in the past on something I'll never carry that over to another post.

I can also admit when I've made mistakes. (see underlined)

It reminds me of back when XIV was in testing. I was trying to get people to speak out to SE about how poorly the game was developing through testing and to leave more feedback about the issues. Instead of using their feedback to strengthen the game by pointing out it's flaws they let their deep seeded love of the FF series blind them to the facts.

I'll say it here as I said it over a year ago... If you really care about something then you shouldn't be afraid to criticize it. If your friend is doing something that is dangerous to their health, do you sit there and do nothing because you don't want to offend them? Do you speak out knowing that they might be offended, but that they might also realize you care because you want better for them? I tried to apply this to XIV over a year ago and no one could see past 'He said something bad about our beloved FF guys, lets ignore him and trash all his posts'. Just a little perspective I guess.
____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
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