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Common Sense/Courtesy: Selling NQ items in Market WardsFollow

#1 Sep 13 2011 at 9:47 PM Rating: Good
I realize this should be common sense but I thought I would mention this, because as we all know, some people are lacking in that department.

Rule #1(Common Sense): Do not sell NQ items for less then the amount you can receive by selling it to a NPC.
(While I am more then happy to buy them from you and resell it to an NPC, you're only hurting yourself.)

Rule #2(Common Courtesy): Do not sell NQ items for more then the price an NPC sells it for.
(While there are people out there that will probably still buy it, it's just plain wrong, and any player that knows their stuff won't buy it, so you are just wasting your time.)

Rule #3(Common Courtesy): Do not price your NQ items with a 1, 2, or 3 at the end if it is not HQ. It's just wrong. Seriously.(Example: selling a NQ item for 1,001 gil makes people think it is a +1 item, due to the fact that the community has mostly adopted that as an unofficial system to identify HQ items in the Market Wards.)

Thanks for reading. Hope the people out there that I know are breaking these "rules" see this.

Edited, Sep 14th 2011 11:49am by StateAlchemist
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#2 Sep 13 2011 at 10:13 PM Rating: Good
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I have noticed some people price their NQ at 1,2 or 3 at the end to advertise their respective HQ. Due to how the Marketward search, sometimes it's very hard to find HQ because NQ low price will just flood the search. For example if I have a Pair of Pants +3 priced at 1,000,003 while 60 other NQ Pair of Pants priced at <30,000, the +3 will never show up in Search. To counter this, some people come up with putting both the +3 and a NQ priced at 29,003 in the same retainer.
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#3 Sep 13 2011 at 10:24 PM Rating: Excellent
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Common Sense Rule #2: Do not sell NQ items for more then the price an NPC sells it for.


One of the biggest rackets I've ever witnessed was distilled water in Jeuno in XI. Folks would buy it from a vendor 30 feet from the AH and sell it on the AH at a premium.

All it'd have took for the end buyers to save a load of Gil would have been to do a little research.
#4 Sep 13 2011 at 10:25 PM Rating: Good
Khornette wrote:
I have noticed some people price their NQ at 1,2 or 3 at the end to advertise their respective HQ. Due to how the Marketward search, sometimes it's very hard to find HQ because NQ low price will just flood the search. For example if I have a Pair of Pants +3 priced at 1,000,003 while 60 other NQ Pair of Pants priced at <30,000, the +3 will never show up in Search. To counter this, some people come up with putting both the +3 and a NQ priced at 29,003 in the same retainer.


I have seen that once. And yes, I agree that for some items (especially items that are common drops from NMs or what not) that this may be necessary. But most of the time I am talking about someone listing an item (at the same price as an actual +1/+2/+3) and having the ~01, ~02, ~03 at the end of the price, then you get to the retainer and find out someone is just trying to get lucky, hoping someone isn't paying attention when they go to purchase the item. (I see similar scams like this happening with repair requests...say they are looking for a Grade 5 repair...they will offer a Grade 1 Dark Matter as the reward.)
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#5 Sep 14 2011 at 8:15 AM Rating: Excellent
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I think you're confusing "common sense" with something else; "desired courtesy," perhaps, or a call for people to look items up in offline databases:

StateAlchemist of Amestris wrote:
Common Sense Rule #1: Do not sell NQ items for less then the amount you can receive by selling it to a NPC.


But unless someone looks this item up online, this is not an issue of common sense.

StateAlchemist of Amestris wrote:
Common Sense Rule #2: Do not sell NQ items for more then the price an NPC sells it for.


This, too, is not common sense at all, but a very common tactic in every online game I've ever played for making steady profits from others' ignorance and/or laziness - two traits always in great supply among MMO populations.

StateAlchemist of Amestris wrote:
Common Sense Rule #3: Do not price your NQ items with a 1, 2, or 3 at the end if it is not HQ. It's just wrong.


Being informed about players' unofficial notation system with regard to price listing is certainly not an issue of common sense, it's a player-invented means to overcome part of SE's badly-designed market wards. It's more SE's fault for not being able to design a rudimentary way to sell items after over a year of player feedback than it is a player's fault for selling an item for whatever price they choose. Whether it's "just wrong" or not is much more an issue of courtesy or morality than sense.

In short, these player-invented and player-enforced unofficial rules of conduct are sometimes nice, but they're not "common sense." The first rule seeks to mend ignorance, the second tries to disallow an avenue of profit through education, and the third tries to inform people of a player-run system of pricing. Really, they're all matters of information dissemination, so maybe they should better be called "Well-Informed Player Rules," or something to that effect.
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#6 Sep 14 2011 at 8:23 AM Rating: Good
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KaneKitty wrote:
StateAlchemist of Amestris wrote:
Common Sense Rule #1: Do not sell NQ items for less then the amount you can receive by selling it to a NPC.


But unless someone looks this item up online, this is not an issue of common sense.


Sorry, the others were valid points, players doing those things are either trying to make a profit, or being ********, and that's a courtesy issue.

But this, this is definitely a common sense issue. Perhaps vendor prices are not common knowledge, but it IS common sense, to go walk over to a vendor, and see how much the item vendors for before selling it on the wards.

It's like eBaying something for less than a pawn shop directly across the street would buy it for. It's pretty dumb, and it's definitely a common sense issue.
#7 Sep 14 2011 at 8:24 AM Rating: Good
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Common sense: mark your NQ gear as XXXXX3 to attract customers, and hope someone is stupid enough to buy.
Common sense: change retainer names once in a while to make sure people fall for the trap again and again.
#8 Sep 14 2011 at 8:28 AM Rating: Good
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Sephrick wrote:
One of the biggest rackets I've ever witnessed was distilled water in Jeuno in XI.
Wrong. Selling Single Shihei for Stack Price in Bazaar.

"What? A stack on the Auction House is 10k, and this bazaar clearly says 9k! What a saving! Wait, where did 891k gil go?"

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#9 Sep 14 2011 at 9:03 AM Rating: Good
KaneKitty wrote:
I think you're confusing "common sense" with something else; "desired courtesy," perhaps, or a call for people to look items up in offline databases:

StateAlchemist of Amestris wrote:
Common Sense Rule #1: Do not sell NQ items for less then the amount you can receive by selling it to a NPC.


But unless someone looks this item up online, this is not an issue of common sense.

StateAlchemist of Amestris wrote:
Common Sense Rule #2: Do not sell NQ items for more then the price an NPC sells it for.


This, too, is not common sense at all, but a very common tactic in every online game I've ever played for making steady profits from others' ignorance and/or laziness - two traits always in great supply among MMO populations.

StateAlchemist of Amestris wrote:
Common Sense Rule #3: Do not price your NQ items with a 1, 2, or 3 at the end if it is not HQ. It's just wrong.


Being informed about players' unofficial notation system with regard to price listing is certainly not an issue of common sense, it's a player-invented means to overcome part of SE's badly-designed market wards. It's more SE's fault for not being able to design a rudimentary way to sell items after over a year of player feedback than it is a player's fault for selling an item for whatever price they choose. Whether it's "just wrong" or not is much more an issue of courtesy or morality than sense.

In short, these player-invented and player-enforced unofficial rules of conduct are sometimes nice, but they're not "common sense." The first rule seeks to mend ignorance, the second tries to disallow an avenue of profit through education, and the third tries to inform people of a player-run system of pricing. Really, they're all matters of information dissemination, so maybe they should better be called "Well-Informed Player Rules," or something to that effect.


Since it means that much to you, I ratified the OP. However, I feel it is common sense to be courteous, and by transitive property of equality, I was accurate in the first place.
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#10 Sep 14 2011 at 9:30 AM Rating: Excellent
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StateAlchemist of Amestris wrote:
Since it means that much to you, I ratified the OP. However, I feel it is common sense to be courteous, and by transitive property of equality, I was accurate in the first place.

While you're at it, care to also fix that "YOUR" into a "YOU'RE" ?

StateAlchemist wrote:
(While I am more then happy to buy them from you and resell it to an NPC, your only hurting yourself.)


Concerning Rule #1, there's a silver lining to people selling stuff for cheaper than NPC will buy it.

If you accept to sell something that's worthless to you for an amount that's okay with you (Let's say, 100 gil per anteloppe skin), you are actually helping out part of the community, because the NPC's pretty high buying price kills most chance that the item will appear on the wards.

Obviously, to avoid sharks buying your stuff just to resell it for profit, it makes more sense to at least price it the same amount the NPC buys them, but really, I wouldn't be MAD to see people making my life as a crafter easier.

Now, selling a Toadskin harness for lower than 9k... That's a bit more interesting.

Edited, Sep 14th 2011 11:36am by Docent42
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#11 Sep 14 2011 at 9:31 AM Rating: Excellent
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Addendum:

Rule #1(Laziness): People can, will and frequently do sell items for less than a vendor will buy them for. It should be called the 'I can't be bothered to check prices at vendor' tax.

Rule #2(Moar Laziness): People can, will and frequently do buy items for more than vendor prices. It should be called the 'I can't be bothered to teleport and track down the vendor' tax.

Rule #3(Um...): Common sense isn't so common, but was completely abandoned when SE decided to create the market wards. It should be called the 'what is this I don't even' tax.

Thanks for reading. Hope the people out there playing this 'broken' game see this.
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#12 Sep 14 2011 at 12:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Rule #1(Laziness): People can, will and frequently do sell items for less than a vendor will buy them for. It should be called the 'I can't be bothered to check prices at vendor' tax.


I was going to say something along these lines as well. Just because somebody sells an item for less than a vendor pays for it doesn't mean they're lacking in common sense, they could just be lazy, or simply apathetic (e.g., "Oh, looks like I got five pinches of pepper while grinding; well, I'm never going to level up culinarian, so, whatever - 100 gil each").

In general, marking items up and buying materials that are under-priced are both legitimate avenues for certain players to make profits. In these cases, the diligence of tracking down a vendor; providing a slew of cheap items in a centralized location; or looking an item up online constitutes the skill, service, or effort that one player has or undertakes that the other player lacks. It's similar to many businesses IRL in many respects. :)
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#13 Sep 14 2011 at 12:50 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Rule #1(Common Sense): Do not sell NQ items for less then the amount you can receive by selling it to a NPC.


I disagree. It's better if people sell something than NPC, many raw mats end up in the trash (NPC) than are put up for sale for people that need it. I always sell items that have no merit to me for lower cost than NPC buys. Sure i make a little less profit, but so what least i know that it will be put to good use. That is the theory, sadly though people come around buying out and wasting the mats on NPC's for a 10gil profit.
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#14 Sep 14 2011 at 1:04 PM Rating: Good
People are mistaking rule #1 for saying "do not sell items in mw just npc them"

I am saying "stop sliting your wrists by willingly giving up gil." if an npc is willing to give you 100 gil for an item, dont sell it in mw for 50 gil. sell it in mw for 100 gil.

in fact. make a item search function for people with retainers that have listed items they are looking for (and make it so i dont have to have the same quantity as i am wanting to buy) so i can just have people walk up and supply me at the price i offer
Edited, Sep 14th 2011 3:05pm by StateAlchemist

Edited, Sep 14th 2011 3:06pm by StateAlchemist

Edited, Sep 14th 2011 3:07pm by StateAlchemist
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#15 Sep 14 2011 at 1:26 PM Rating: Decent
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Lack of raw materials making it into the hands of players is a design problem. Some sort of NPC middleman system, as I am told has been implemented for the sale of dyes in Guild Wars, would be the best option. With the system constantly removing items when supply exceeds demand.
#16 Sep 14 2011 at 2:01 PM Rating: Decent
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StateAlchemist of Amestris wrote:

I am saying "stop sliting your wrists by willingly giving up gil." if an npc is willing to give you 100 gil for an item, dont sell it in mw for 50 gil. sell it in mw for 100 gil.


How is this sliting my wrists? looking at the big picture if people sell the raw mats for low the crafters need to spend less to make the final item. As a result the crafters can sell the final item for less and still cover all costs + profit. Reason
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#17 Sep 14 2011 at 2:14 PM Rating: Good
That is backwards economy. The wholesaler doesn't take a hit on profit because he cares about the retail price... his price is based on supply and demand. The retailer should be concerned about his price and whether or not it will attract customers.
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#18 Sep 14 2011 at 2:21 PM Rating: Good
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Sorry to say, but the good Samaritan argument doesn't hold up. While nice, it won't actually affect a change in the economy. Someone will just be happy they got the material for dirt cheap, and now their profit margin is going to be higher.

If suppliers have to take a loss on sales in order to actually get an item into circulation, something is wrong.
#19 Sep 14 2011 at 2:41 PM Rating: Good
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StateAlchemist of Amestris wrote:
People are mistaking rule #1 for saying "do not sell items in mw just npc them"

I am saying "stop sliting your wrists by willingly giving up gil." if an npc is willing to give you 100 gil for an item, dont sell it in mw for 50 gil. sell it in mw for 100 gil.

Fair enough, but I do have one question for you that might point out why it wouldn't quite work as well...

Lets say you are leveling a craft, something which I know you enjoy, and you want to purchase a specific number of goods. Is it faster to go to the NPC and grab 50 of 'item x' or to search the market wards and purchase those same 50 ingredients, possibly from several different retainers, at the same cost? Personally I'd rather toss the anima at the travel than go through the trouble of using the wards.

If the wards were functional you would have a point though.

Edited, Sep 14th 2011 4:43pm by FilthMcNasty
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#20 Sep 14 2011 at 3:35 PM Rating: Good
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This is were things get mixed up and idea's misunderstood. Do not superimpose the mechanics of the real economy in to a game. For most final items the cost is determined by difficulty/price to obtain the materials and profit in a game. The supply and demand has on so many occasion's proven ineffective, that i don't even account for it.
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#21 Sep 14 2011 at 3:52 PM Rating: Good
TwiddleDee wrote:
For most final items the cost is determined by difficulty/price to obtain the materials and profit in a game.

In other words supply and demand.

As far as of materials goes:
If the supply is limited and there is limited demand the price will most likely be low (or the item will be NPCd).
If the supply is limited and the demand is high, then the price will most likely be high.
If the supply is ample and there is limited demand, the cost will most likely be low (or the item will be NPCd).
If the supply is ample and there is ample demand, the price will be most likely be competitive and fluctuate.

As far as finished items goes:
If there is limited demand, then it doesn't really matter, because most likely these items will be made at the individual request of the person seeking this item.
If there is ample demand, then the cost will depend solely on the fluctuation of its required materials and competing crafters.

The ability to profit is simply a crafter analyzing potential gains based on supply and demand, and determining which items are worth making (as far as cost:revenue is concerned).

That IS real world economics.
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#22 Sep 14 2011 at 4:00 PM Rating: Decent
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Game economies are often abstracted and simplified compared to the real world economy, but saying that basic economic concepts like supply and demand don't apply across the board is absolutely silly.
#23 Sep 14 2011 at 4:06 PM Rating: Good
RamseySylph wrote:
Game economies are often abstracted and simplified compared to the real world economy, but saying that basic economic concepts like supply and demand don't apply across the board is absolutely silly.


Can you provide an example of how supply and demand does not influence something sell-able in the Market Wards within FFXIV?

Edited, Sep 14th 2011 6:19pm by StateAlchemist
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#24 Sep 14 2011 at 4:14 PM Rating: Decent
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StateAlchemist of Amestris wrote:
RamseySylph wrote:
Game economies are often abstracted and simplified compared to the real world economy, but saying that basic economic concepts like supply and demand don't apply across the board is absolutely silly.


Can you provide an example of how supply and demand does not influence something sell-able in the Market Wards within FFXIV?


Does not compute.

Edited, Sep 14th 2011 3:15pm by RamseySylph
#25 Sep 14 2011 at 4:19 PM Rating: Good
RamseySylph wrote:
don't

Lol, missed that word. My bad.

Edited, Sep 14th 2011 6:19pm by StateAlchemist
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#26 Sep 14 2011 at 4:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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TwiddleDee wrote:
StateAlchemist of Amestris wrote:

I am saying "stop sliting your wrists by willingly giving up gil." if an npc is willing to give you 100 gil for an item, dont sell it in mw for 50 gil. sell it in mw for 100 gil.


How is this sliting my wrists? looking at the big picture if people sell the raw mats for low the crafters need to spend less to make the final item. As a result the crafters can sell the final item for less and still cover all costs + profit. Reason


This can actually end in 3 ways.

Example:

Normal material cost is 100 (npc), crafter sell final product for 150, you sell material for 50:

1) Crafter buy cheap material, and stil sell for 150 (higher profit for crafter)

2) Crafter buy cheap material and sell for 100 (if you're the buyer here of the final product the cash flow will be the same as if you sold for 100 and he sold for 150, ie. he making 50 gil off you. If you're not the buyer, he makes same gil, you lose gil)

3) Random smart person see an opportunity to make some quick gil and npc your materials.

Now, I can't see how you can actually come out ahead like this unless you feel you've "contributed" to the growth of another character. It's just another way of giving away gil to be honest.
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#27 Sep 18 2011 at 3:14 AM Rating: Decent
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wouldn't you want to get mats dirt cheap? if i can get my mats cheaper than the guy in front of me i can under cut his sorry *** and sell an item quicker at least that's the way i see it.

#28 Sep 18 2011 at 6:07 AM Rating: Good
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#29 Sep 18 2011 at 11:10 AM Rating: Decent
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Some people advertise + 1 or + 3 with a lower prices item, and have the real item for a realistic price in the same retainer. This. Is common for items with a high supply, seeing as youbcan only see the cheapest 16 items...
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#30 Sep 18 2011 at 2:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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The only "common sense" thing would be for S-E to add a way to immediately recognize HQ items.

I know, too friggin' simple, huh?



Edited, Sep 18th 2011 4:35pm by Zorvan
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#31 Sep 18 2011 at 3:53 PM Rating: Decent
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StateAlchemist of Amestris wrote:
TwiddleDee wrote:
For most final items the cost is determined by difficulty/price to obtain the materials and profit in a game.

In other words supply and demand.

As far as of materials goes:
If the supply is limited and there is limited demand the price will most likely be low (or the item will be NPCd).
If the supply is limited and the demand is high, then the price will most likely be high.
If the supply is ample and there is limited demand, the cost will most likely be low (or the item will be NPCd).
If the supply is ample and there is ample demand, the price will be most likely be competitive and fluctuate.

As far as finished items goes:
If there is limited demand, then it doesn't really matter, because most likely these items will be made at the individual request of the person seeking this item.
If there is ample demand, then the cost will depend solely on the fluctuation of its required materials and competing crafters.

The ability to profit is simply a crafter analyzing potential gains based on supply and demand, and determining which items are worth making (as far as cost:revenue is concerned).

That IS real world economics.


i believe i can but i am going to use the ffxi AH system for this example because it is easier to do so.

there are a few items like the lowbie gear that regardless of demand, people will put for certain amounts of gil, like the bone equipment. ive seen the gear sold out but people always put the gear up for the same price as the last person. and if there was 10 on the AH people undercutted each other, but the price always went back to where people knew it was selling for.

another example was the hagun. always went for 3 mil with slight variations because of undercutting and what not. there was always more and more haguns being put into the economy yet price did not drop. likewise, even if there was short supply of them they were put up for 3mil unless some guy decided he was going to try to raise the price, and if that happened the hagun still went down to 3mil.

the real world economy does indeed work inside the game, however not in the same way as real life, as that is much more complex.

like someone else said the prices are more determined by difficulty to obtain. this is most aparant by ace's helm. the price for one back in the day was anywheer between 3-5mil depending on who you were buying it from. it didn't matter how many helms dropped, everyone paid the same prices if you didn't want to camp it.

if you want to see actual sellable gear, kirins osode was the same deal. there was tons of those in the economy, people usually didn't buy them and waited their turn to get one, yet the price for this was still high. if your going to say supply and demand runs our economy then osode's should have been much cheaper than they were. (osodes were going for 2-3mil)

theres more examples i could go over as well, but i believe this is enough to get the point across.

yes there is definatley supply and demand, however i believe this more to be for consumable items than equipment because those are easy to obtain and sell fast, where as permanent things that were hard to get had a fixed price, where only when the difficulty of getting an item decreased did the price also decrease.

i also would like to point out that neither of those 2 ways i just stated are 100% fact for everything. different items had different rules.

Edited, Sep 18th 2011 5:55pm by Keysofgaruda
#32 Sep 18 2011 at 11:26 PM Rating: Decent
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StateAlchemist, I meant to post couple days ago to say thank you for teaching something new. the 3rd thing you mentioned was something I never knew, hope it will make my life simpler looking for those items now.
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