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Better Crafting in .... Dragon Quest X? (lol)Follow

#1 Sep 14 2011 at 10:59 AM Rating: Default
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Watch the video...

It's still too early to tell, but it looks like the activities are at least more varied than FFXIV, with the player hammering out a spear at first, and then cutting a shirt out of cloth. Regardless, I thought it was laughable that the game apparently has more thought in at least the activity of crafting, and this is the first we're even seeing of the game.

Should make for a fun discussion.

PS. They have houses and furniture too. (double lol)

Edited, Sep 14th 2011 10:00am by RamseySylph
#2 Sep 14 2011 at 11:45 AM Rating: Excellent
Edited by bsphil
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DQX is supposed to be an MMO, right? Just double checking.

More options, more interactivity, more variety etc. doesn't necessarily mean better crafting for a MMO, even for some single-player/offline games (Disgaea comes to mind). Grinding anything for a long period of time will cause you to dread mini-games and extra animations if the only purpose is to make you jump through a hoop. The ability to streamline the process matters. which is why I mention Disgaea for offline games. The grind is insane, but there are options to cut out the fluff like attack animations. Watching a dragon breath fire onto a group of enemies is neat the first few times, but a completely superfluous 15 second animation is torture compared to the 0.5 second "fast" mode.

FFXIV made big steps in making crafting more than just a floating amalgam of elemental energy that sometimes belches out an item from the raw materials, but that wasn't what was boring about FFXI crafting. Crafting is boring because it's slow and needs to be done hundreds to thousands of times to become useful. Slowing it down to make it flashier isn't going to make it better in the long run.



Edited, Sep 14th 2011 1:00pm by bsphil
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#3 Sep 14 2011 at 12:04 PM Rating: Good
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bsphil wrote:
DQX is supposed to be an MMO, right? Just double checking.

More options, more interactivity, more variety etc. doesn't necessarily mean better crafting for a MMO, even for some single-player/offline games (Disgaea comes to mind). Grinding anything for a long period of time will cause you to dread mini-games and extra animations if the only purpose is to make you jump through a hoop. The ability to streamline the process matters. which is why I mention Disgaea for offline games. The grind is insane, but there are options to cut out the fluff like attack animations. Watching a dragon breath fire onto a group of enemies is neat the first few times, but a completely superfluous 15 second animation is torture compared to the 0.5 second "fast" mode.

FFXIV made big steps in making crafting more than just a floating amalgam of elemental energy that sometimes belches out an item from the raw materials, but that wasn't what was boring about FFXI crafting. Crafting is boring because it's slow and needs to be done hundreds to thousands of times to become useful. Making it slower by any means just isn't going to make it better in the long run.

Edited, Sep 14th 2011 1:00pm by bsphil


DQX is in fact an MMO. I get the sense that you won't be cutting hundreds of shirts out of a piece of cloth, but even if you are, as long as it doesn't take longer than pressing standard over and over, it wins in my book.

There's a balance between abstracting and streamlining something, and keeping it fun and interesting to observe and interact with. Something you have to do ad nauseum should be streamlined and possibly abstracted, or have a lot of depth, so that the experience is enjoyable.

The thread is really just for fun, and this serves as an example for how keenly uninspired FFXIV's actual moment to moment crafting is. DQX is a decidedly more casual experience, just form looking at it, obviously.
#4 Sep 14 2011 at 12:18 PM Rating: Decent
Edited by bsphil
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I haven't played any DQ game more than 45 minutes (don't really know which one to start with), but from what I hear, they're decidedly NOT casual games - typically with a focus on extensive grinding. I could absolutely be wrong on that though, I don't have the firsthand experience to back it up.
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#5 Sep 14 2011 at 12:20 PM Rating: Excellent
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This is somewhat of an abstract comment, not a finite solution, so take it with a grain of salt: I think that the "correct" way to make crafting interesting and fun (assuming that you even want to, after all, main stream MMOs have survived without interesting crafting for almost two decades) would be to analyze what it is that makes players enjoy exp grinds and try to reproduce that. It is true that many people see the exp grind to max level to just be the introduction to any MMO, but there are just as many people who find it to be an interesting and integral part of the game. If a developer could capture that same process for crafting, it would go a long way towards the mythical "interesting crafting".

Another way to say it is: Everyone calls the crafting in FFXIV a minigame - rightly so. Meanwhile, no one ever calls the repetitive activity of killing monsters over and over again a minigame - a grind yes, but a minigame no. What is the difference? It's not like solving the distinction will instantly make an interesting dynamic crafting system, but I believe that the distinction is at the core of why crafting is perpetually given second fiddle and most find it to be horrifyingly dull.
#6 Sep 14 2011 at 12:35 PM Rating: Default
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Hulan wrote:
This is somewhat of an abstract comment, not a finite solution, so take it with a grain of salt: I think that the "correct" way to make crafting interesting and fun (assuming that you even want to, after all, main stream MMOs have survived without interesting crafting for almost two decades) would be to analyze what it is that makes players enjoy exp grinds and try to reproduce that. It is true that many people see the exp grind to max level to just be the introduction to any MMO, but there are just as many people who find it to be an interesting and integral part of the game. If a developer could capture that same process for crafting, it would go a long way towards the mythical "interesting crafting".

Another way to say it is: Everyone calls the crafting in FFXIV a minigame - rightly so. Meanwhile, no one ever calls the repetitive activity of killing monsters over and over again a minigame - a grind yes, but a minigame no. What is the difference? It's not like solving the distinction will instantly make an interesting dynamic crafting system, but I believe that the distinction is at the core of why crafting is perpetually given second fiddle and most find it to be horrifyingly dull.


People enjoy EXP grinds for one of three reasons...

  • They're doing it with other players and socializing
  • They really want to get to the end goal
  • They're actually enjoying the content


The third one is the least obvious as to how to accomplish this, but there are two primary ways. Lots of different things/options to do as you level. The actual gameplay creates so many variables and requires skill and mastery, such that it is actually fun on its own. See: Action MMOs a la Dragon Nest / TERA.

The reason combat is not seen as a mini-game, even in FFXIV when compared to crafting is manifold as well.


  • Fighting different monsters can be fairly different, crafting different items never is
  • You can't team up with other players to craft
  • Player skill has very little to do with the outcome of a craft
  • The type of actions you take during crafting largely remain the same 1-50
  • Crafting pretty much always takes place in the same locations
  • There are no crafting instances, bosses, and very few quests or leves


This list is by no means exhaustive, but it's a place to start.

bsphil wrote:
I haven't played any DQ game more than 45 minutes (don't really know which one to start with), but from what I hear, they're decidedly NOT casual games - typically with a focus on extensive grinding. I could absolutely be wrong on that though, I don't have the firsthand experience to back it up.


Let me clarify this idea for you. Dragon Quest was originally successful because it took concepts from games like Ultima and Wizardry and simplified them, made objectives clear, and made the overall experience accessible to the average gamer of the time.

Years later, the games haven't changed drastically, thus, when compared to today's RPGs, they are very grind-y, because most RPGs these days, you needn't grind at all. Compared to contemporary games of the time, Dragon Quest was normal or less grind-y. Dragon Quest fans just don't like change, look what happened with DQ9.

My point is basically that, while it requires a lot of grinding, the Dragon Quest series is very simple, not complex. Hardcore as far as the west's standards on RPGs perhaps, but not complex. So the experience is more casual.

Anyway, I believe what DQX is trying to do, is do to the MMO genre (for Japan) what DQ1 did for the RPG genre of it's day, and thus, the idea is to be simple and accessible. Whether it's hardcore in the sense that a lot of grinding is required remains to be seen.
#7 Sep 14 2011 at 12:48 PM Rating: Decent
Edited by bsphil
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Fair enough. I have no idea what happened with DQ9 so you or someone else can bring that up if you wish.
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#8 Sep 14 2011 at 12:51 PM Rating: Default
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bsphil wrote:
I haven't played any DQ game more than 45 minutes (don't really know which one to start with), but from what I hear, they're decidedly NOT casual games - typically with a focus on extensive grinding. I could absolutely be wrong on that though, I don't have the firsthand experience to back it up.


Yeah, DQ has always been a strange series for me. Sure, I've played them for hundreds of hours collectively, but they're a bizarre mixture of often badly-drawn, downright childlike monsters, colour schemes, and graphics, and yet feature intense amounts of grinding, little animation, few to no tutorials, and sometimes complex, text-heavy class systems.

I really don't know what to make of DQ but, I suppose, it is that very amalgamation - one that appears contradictory at its very nature - that keeps me coming back to it, like an aesthetic of the grotesque.
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#9 Sep 14 2011 at 12:55 PM Rating: Good
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RamseySylph wrote:
Dragon Quest fans just don't like change, look what happened with DQ9.


I think it ended up being the highest selling Dragon Quest of all time. :X
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#10 Sep 14 2011 at 12:56 PM Rating: Good
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Not that it has anything with the discussion really, but from what I can see this is going to be for the Wii and WiiU platforms?
#11 Sep 14 2011 at 1:04 PM Rating: Decent
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Belcrono wrote:
Not that it has anything with the discussion really, but from what I can see this is going to be for the Wii and WiiU platforms?


It is, which is why my hopes were raised up to the sky and only plummeted down into the deepest seas the more I read about it.

"DQ X!? ZOMG must have!!11 *foams at mouth*"
"Oh... it's online... well that's certainly disappointing, but I'll at least look into it."
"Oh... it's for Wii... well I guess I won't be playing it ever, then. Time to drown myself in a pool of stuffed Slime toys. :/"


Edited, Sep 14th 2011 3:04pm by KaneKitty
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"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#12 Sep 14 2011 at 1:23 PM Rating: Default
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KaneKitty wrote:
RamseySylph wrote:
Dragon Quest fans just don't like change, look what happened with DQ9.


I think it ended up being the highest selling Dragon Quest of all time. :X


What I was referring to is the fact that the game was originally slated to be an action RPG, and later reverted to being a traditional turn based fare after an outcry from Japanese fans. Something you would know if you had payed even vague attention to the press around the game.

But it looks like you just read that I mentioned Dragon Quest IX and then looked up the sales figures? Totally unrelated and irrelevant topic?

Edited, Sep 14th 2011 12:24pm by RamseySylph
#13 Sep 14 2011 at 1:28 PM Rating: Good
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RamseySylph wrote:
Something you would know if you had payed even vague attention to the press around the game.

But it looks like you just read that I mentioned Dragon Quest IX and then looked up the sales figures? Totally unrelated and irrelevant topic?


lol, gosh, I'm sorry. @_@
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"... he called to himself a wizard, named Gallery, hoping by this means to escape the paying of the fifteen hundred crowns..." (Machen 15)

"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#14 Sep 14 2011 at 1:43 PM Rating: Good
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Has more been said on this? I was under the impression this wasn't really an MMO, as much as RPG with a lot of online components. I don't know if that distinction means a lot to people, but closer to DQIX (even though required online) than a traditional MMO.
#15 Sep 14 2011 at 1:51 PM Rating: Excellent
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RamseySylph wrote:
Something you would know if you had payed even vague attention to the press around the game.

Is it payed or paid...?

The internet doesn't seem to agree too much on that one...
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#16 Sep 14 2011 at 2:23 PM Rating: Default
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Docent42 wrote:
RamseySylph wrote:
Something you would know if you had payed even vague attention to the press around the game.

Is it payed or paid...?

The internet doesn't seem to agree too much on that one...


Payed is incorrect, it's paid. Yay for my awful English! The more you know!

Vawn43 wrote:
Has more been said on this? I was under the impression this wasn't really an MMO, as much as RPG with a lot of online components. I don't know if that distinction means a lot to people, but closer to DQIX (even though required online) than a traditional MMO.


Even the developers say MMO when talking about it, and the players seemed to run into other random players, even out in the field, so it's not a Phantasy Star type deal, though admittedly it may still use channels instead of servers, who knows.

Anyways.

The real thing that probably keeps people hesitant from saying MMO is that you can in fact play the game offline I think, at which time your friends appear as NPCs in your game. There haven't been many details, but it may even possibly let you party with your friends offline, where they become AI controlled, who knows.

But when you're online, it's basically a full fledged MMO from what I see.

Edited, Sep 14th 2011 1:25pm by RamseySylph
#17 Sep 14 2011 at 2:25 PM Rating: Decent
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Urk double post.

Edited, Sep 14th 2011 1:25pm by RamseySylph
#18 Sep 14 2011 at 2:33 PM Rating: Default
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I like the ideas that these guys have.

You have a specialty craft that you can cap, but if you unlearn it for another one but later decide to come back you don't lose progress. I also like the discovery element of it. In most games you learn a recipe or request it from a trainer, but this encourages you to experiment with random materials to learn recipes. Gaining skill at a constant rate makes more sense also.
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#19 Sep 14 2011 at 2:37 PM Rating: Decent
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RamseySylph wrote:
Even the developers say MMO when talking about it, and the players seemed to run into other random players, even out in the field, so it's not a Phantasy Star type deal, though admittedly it may still use channels instead of servers, who knows.


The developers never said it was an MMO, only that it was an online RPG. The ones calling it an MMO are everyone else. Being able to run into random players doesn't automatically mean it's an MMO either. Like you said, it could use channels instead of servers, like APB. It could also work like Conan, where the zones are cut up into small instances, and when one gets too full another one gets created.
#20 Sep 14 2011 at 3:02 PM Rating: Decent
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nekroturkey wrote:
RamseySylph wrote:
Even the developers say MMO when talking about it, and the players seemed to run into other random players, even out in the field, so it's not a Phantasy Star type deal, though admittedly it may still use channels instead of servers, who knows.


The developers never said it was an MMO, only that it was an online RPG. The ones calling it an MMO are everyone else. Being able to run into random players doesn't automatically mean it's an MMO either. Like you said, it could use channels instead of servers, like APB. It could also work like Conan, where the zones are cut up into small instances, and when one gets too full another one gets created.


I could have sworn they referred to it as an MMO during the TGS demonstration, but anyways... The line between "Online game" and "MMO" is getting rather blurry, and it's nitpicky at this point to care, even as a developer. I think the distinction we're looking to make here is, persistent world vs not. Regardless of whether it's a persistent world or uses channels, it's still an online game, where players can trade, craft, fight together and run into each other in the field.
#21 Sep 14 2011 at 7:53 PM Rating: Good
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
In most games you learn a recipe or request it from a trainer, but this encourages you to experiment with random materials to learn recipes.


Oh great, wasn't that the whole point of people whining about FFXIV crafting?
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#22 Sep 14 2011 at 8:12 PM Rating: Decent
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Khornette wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
In most games you learn a recipe or request it from a trainer, but this encourages you to experiment with random materials to learn recipes.


Oh great, wasn't that the whole point of people whining about FFXIV crafting?


It's not the not learning recipes from trainers explicitly part that is frustrating in FFXIV, it's the lack of a real recipe journal for recipes you've received from quests and recipes you've made yourself in the past. 8 totally unorganized most recent recipes is not acceptable.
#23 Sep 14 2011 at 8:20 PM Rating: Decent
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RamseySylph wrote:
Khornette wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
In most games you learn a recipe or request it from a trainer, but this encourages you to experiment with random materials to learn recipes.


Oh great, wasn't that the whole point of people whining about FFXIV crafting?


It's not the not learning recipes from trainers explicitly part that is frustrating in FFXIV, it's the lack of a real recipe journal for recipes you've received from quests and recipes you've made yourself in the past. 8 totally unorganized most recent recipes is not acceptable.


I'm pretty sure people was ****** that they had to discover the recipe themselves, and that some people was monopolising recipes. I bet that GW2 release will have that part about "discovering" abolished, or pretty quick after release.
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#24 Sep 14 2011 at 8:26 PM Rating: Good
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
I like the ideas that these guys have.

You have a specialty craft that you can cap, but if you unlearn it for another one but later decide to come back you don't lose progress. I also like the discovery element of it. In most games you learn a recipe or request it from a trainer, but this encourages you to experiment with random materials to learn recipes. Gaining skill at a constant rate makes more sense also.


According to the article you linked:

["gone are the days of skill points. Rather than giving crafting recipes a somewhat random chance to give you a skill-up, Guild Wars 2's crafting system provides you with an experience bar for your tradeskill, with each completed recipe providing a set amount of experience toward the next level."

"But what if you're not happy with your profession choices? While the game only allows you to have two active professions at any given time, you're able to freely swap one profession for another while retaining progress made in your former profession. So if you want to drop your level 50 profession to mess around with another, you can pick back up where you left off at a later time."


So GW2 will allow you to change crafts if you want, and it will give you "crafting experience points" instead of skill points. All right... so their crafting system is exactly the same as FFXIV's if FFXIV just didn't tell you any recipes for things. Revolutionary. >_>
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"... he called to himself a wizard, named Gallery, hoping by this means to escape the paying of the fifteen hundred crowns..." (Machen 15)

"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#25 Sep 14 2011 at 8:33 PM Rating: Good
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KaneKitty wrote:
Revolutionary. >_>


Everything about GW2 is revolutionary, including it being a video game. Most of the fanboys thought it was real, revoluntionary.

Edited, Sep 14th 2011 10:34pm by Khornette
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#26 Sep 14 2011 at 8:44 PM Rating: Decent
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Khornette wrote:
RamseySylph wrote:
Khornette wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
In most games you learn a recipe or request it from a trainer, but this encourages you to experiment with random materials to learn recipes.


Oh great, wasn't that the whole point of people whining about FFXIV crafting?


It's not the not learning recipes from trainers explicitly part that is frustrating in FFXIV, it's the lack of a real recipe journal for recipes you've received from quests and recipes you've made yourself in the past. 8 totally unorganized most recent recipes is not acceptable.


I'm pretty sure people was ****** that they had to discover the recipe themselves, and that some people was monopolising recipes. I bet that GW2 release will have that part about "discovering" abolished, or pretty quick after release.


I'm sure some people were a bit put off about having to discover recipes, but my point is that it's a tolerable system, if there's a better way to keep track than "GO TO THE INTRANETS!" or literally writing them in an excel file or notepad ourselves.
#27 Sep 14 2011 at 9:49 PM Rating: Default
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KaneKitty wrote:
So GW2 will allow you to change crafts if you want, and it will give you "crafting experience points" instead of skill points. All right... so their crafting system is exactly the same as FFXIV's if FFXIV just didn't tell you any recipes for things. Revolutionary. >_>

Actually no, you can't specialize in all the crafts like you can in XIV. Not all at the same time anyway. Gotta stick to only two iirc. You also don't have to spam standard for 3 minutes to make an item.

I detect a hint of sarcasm in the 'revolutionary' comment. The sad thing is that in comparison to XIV, the ability to drag-n-drop items directly from your inventory into the interface alone is pretty revolutionary. Having a refining list and the ability to mix-n-match items to discover recipes is just an added bonus.

Discovery adds value to crafting and leveling your skills. Sure there will be a basic guide to skilling up that you'd be able to find just about anywhere, but the combination of rare materials and trial and error discovery will allow crafters who have discovered recipes early to profit. Won't really find that in XIV.






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cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#28 Sep 14 2011 at 9:56 PM Rating: Good
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Sure there will be a basic guide to skilling up that you'd be able to find just about anywhere, but the combination of rare materials and trial and error discovery will allow crafters who have discovered recipes early to profit. Won't really find that in XIV.


You say that to people who rack up 100m gil in FFXIV, revolutionary.

Hint: They monopolised recipes.
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#29 Sep 14 2011 at 10:06 PM Rating: Decent
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Khornette wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Sure there will be a basic guide to skilling up that you'd be able to find just about anywhere, but the combination of rare materials and trial and error discovery will allow crafters who have discovered recipes early to profit. Won't really find that in XIV.


You say that to people who rack up 100m gil in FFXIV, revolutionary.

Hint: They monopolised recipes.



I'm not really sure how your point was a response to his, but... Really figuring out recipes is not all that hard, they're all formulaic, assuming you can see an item in game you can identify the material with your eyes. If you can't, you just try all the variations of glue/strap/buckle, etc.

Also, what is even wrong with this? Those players were only able to do that because they leveled faster than everyone else. It's the same with combat classes and end game content. The first people to get to the max level will get the high end gear from high end raids faster. It's the same concept.
#30 Sep 14 2011 at 10:13 PM Rating: Decent
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RamseySylph wrote:
Khornette wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Sure there will be a basic guide to skilling up that you'd be able to find just about anywhere, but the combination of rare materials and trial and error discovery will allow crafters who have discovered recipes early to profit. Won't really find that in XIV.


You say that to people who rack up 100m gil in FFXIV, revolutionary.

Hint: They monopolised recipes.



I'm not really sure how your point was a response to his, but... Really figuring out recipes is not all that hard, they're all formulaic, assuming you can see an item in game you can identify the material with your eyes. If you can't, you just try all the variations of glue/strap/buckle, etc.

Also, what is even wrong with this? Those players were only able to do that because they leveled faster than everyone else. It's the same with combat classes and end game content. The first people to get to the max level will get the high end gear from high end raids faster. It's the same concept.


FilthMcNasty wrote:
Won't really find that in XIV.


But then I forgot, everything is revolutionary in GW2.
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#31 Sep 14 2011 at 11:08 PM Rating: Decent
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RamseySylph wrote:
Khornette wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Sure there will be a basic guide to skilling up that you'd be able to find just about anywhere, but the combination of rare materials and trial and error discovery will allow crafters who have discovered recipes early to profit. Won't really find that in XIV.


You say that to people who rack up 100m gil in FFXIV, revolutionary.

Hint: They monopolised recipes.



I'm not really sure how your point was a response to his, but... Really figuring out recipes is not all that hard, they're all formulaic, assuming you can see an item in game you can identify the material with your eyes. If you can't, you just try all the variations of glue/strap/buckle, etc.

I'm used to cryptic responses from Khornette. I think she had an idea that was relevant to my post, it carried her to some other ideas and she just blurted them out without realizing that we can't read her thoughts. I can't even tell if it's a stab at being inflammatory lol

Anyhow, it is really simple. You drag-n-drop items into the interface. There is a greyed out button that becomes active when you place the correct materials in the interface. Click to discover. Once you discover it there is a 'refining' tab that basically stores all of your recipes. Click a recipe name, select the amount you want to make and click the button to craft them.

Khornette wrote:
But then I forgot, everything is revolutionary in GW2.

People have been using drag-and-drop for twenty years now Khornette. Time to migrate to the 21st century methinks.




Edited, Sep 15th 2011 1:09am by FilthMcNasty
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Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#32 Sep 15 2011 at 12:36 AM Rating: Decent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
RamseySylph wrote:
Khornette wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Sure there will be a basic guide to skilling up that you'd be able to find just about anywhere, but the combination of rare materials and trial and error discovery will allow crafters who have discovered recipes early to profit. Won't really find that in XIV.


You say that to people who rack up 100m gil in FFXIV, revolutionary.

Hint: They monopolised recipes.



I'm not really sure how your point was a response to his, but... Really figuring out recipes is not all that hard, they're all formulaic, assuming you can see an item in game you can identify the material with your eyes. If you can't, you just try all the variations of glue/strap/buckle, etc.

I'm used to cryptic responses from Khornette. I think she had an idea that was relevant to my post, it carried her to some other ideas and she just blurted them out without realizing that we can't read her thoughts. I can't even tell if it's a stab at being inflammatory lol

Anyhow, it is really simple. You drag-n-drop items into the interface. There is a greyed out button that becomes active when you place the correct materials in the interface. Click to discover. Once you discover it there is a 'refining' tab that basically stores all of your recipes. Click a recipe name, select the amount you want to make and click the button to craft them.

Khornette wrote:
But then I forgot, everything is revolutionary in GW2.

People have been using drag-and-drop for twenty years now Khornette. Time to migrate to the 21st century methinks.




Edited, Sep 15th 2011 1:09am by FilthMcNasty


As if my quote was not obvious enough.

FilthMcNasty wrote:
Sure there will be a basic guide to skilling up that you'd be able to find just about anywhere, but the combination of rare materials and trial and error discovery will allow crafters who have discovered recipes early to profit. Won't really find that in XIV.


I didn't see I quote the drag-and-drop anywhere. But then again, everything from you must be totally NOT the point I'm making.
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#33 Sep 15 2011 at 1:23 AM Rating: Decent
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Khornette wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Sure there will be a basic guide to skilling up that you'd be able to find just about anywhere, but the combination of rare materials and trial and error discovery will allow crafters who have discovered recipes early to profit. Won't really find that in XIV.


I didn't see I quote the drag-and-drop anywhere. But then again, everything from you must be totally NOT the point I'm making.

You seem to think that discovering recipes will upset people. I'm not sure why, but if you look for the feedback on it from GW players then you'll see that for most it is a welcome feature.

So people in XIV were able to monopolize crafts. Is that the devs fault for some design flaw or the player's faults for being too lazy to experiment? What does that have to do with GW2 anyway?
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#34 Sep 15 2011 at 1:36 AM Rating: Good
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Ok, so ex0plain this to me....

What will prevent people from data mining GW2 just like they do every other game and discovering all the recepies before even turning on the game?

If nothing then what is there so different from FFXIV?
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#35 Sep 15 2011 at 2:15 AM Rating: Decent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Khornette wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Sure there will be a basic guide to skilling up that you'd be able to find just about anywhere, but the combination of rare materials and trial and error discovery will allow crafters who have discovered recipes early to profit. Won't really find that in XIV.


I didn't see I quote the drag-and-drop anywhere. But then again, everything from you must be totally NOT the point I'm making.

You seem to think that discovering recipes will upset people. I'm not sure why, but if you look for the feedback on it from GW players then you'll see that for most it is a welcome feature.

So people in XIV were able to monopolize crafts. Is that the devs fault for some design flaw or the player's faults for being too lazy to experiment? What does that have to do with GW2 anyway?


FilthMcNasty wrote:
Won't really find that in XIV.


Need I spell out what you actually wrote? And 1/2 of the comments was "Oh cool until the moment the recipe spammed the Interwebz".

Hugus wrote:
Ok, so ex0plain this to me....

What will prevent people from data mining GW2 just like they do every other game and discovering all the recepies before even turning on the game?

If nothing then what is there so different from FFXIV?


You get it. The point is, if it's GW2 the fanboyz will be all over the "revolutionary" aspect.

Edited, Sep 15th 2011 4:16am by Khornette
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#36 Sep 15 2011 at 3:39 AM Rating: Default
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Hugus wrote:
What will prevent people from data mining GW2 just like they do every other game and discovering all the recepies before even turning on the game?

The same thing that stops you from tearing through your parents closet the night before christmas when you were a kid.

Khornette wrote:
The point is, if it's GW2 the fanboyz will be all over the "revolutionary" aspect.

Sure. Yeah, that's exactly the point. Unfortunately I do not have my idiot decoder ring so I haven't the ******* foggiest idea what you are talking about. Good luck with your revolution though.



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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#37 Sep 15 2011 at 10:27 AM Rating: Good
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I just like how GW2 touts "ability to monopolize" as a good thing. XD
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#38 Sep 15 2011 at 3:16 PM Rating: Default
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Where do you get the idea that people will have the ability to monopolize crafting? The only way to monopolize crafting is to monopolize materials. Anyone could discover a recipe as long as they have access to the materials.

Where do any of these wack ideas you guys have come from? **** it, nevermind. I don't even wanna be taken on that ride.

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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#39 Sep 15 2011 at 5:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Where do you get the idea that people will have the ability to monopolize crafting? The only way to monopolize crafting is to monopolize materials. Anyone could discover a recipe as long as they have access to the materials.

Where do any of these wack ideas you guys have come from? @#%^ it, nevermind. I don't even wanna be taken on that ride.


From the article we've been discussing:

"However, unlike many MMOs that give you a set list of recipes based on your crafting level and then limit you to crafting only those recipes, Guild Wars 2's system allows players to experiment with different combinations of materials to see if they form a new recipe. Only guy on the server who's figured out how to make that badass warhammer? Don't tell anyone and monopolize the market!"
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"... he called to himself a wizard, named Gallery, hoping by this means to escape the paying of the fifteen hundred crowns..." (Machen 15)

"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#40 Sep 15 2011 at 5:18 PM Rating: Good
Yeah if it is some odd combination of materials, it could stay unknown for a while.
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#41 Sep 15 2011 at 5:19 PM Rating: Good
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I don't see how, given dat miners... maybe it will stay unknown to people who don't know how to use google...
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#42 Sep 15 2011 at 5:37 PM Rating: Good
Olorinus wrote:
I don't see how, given dat miners... maybe it will stay unknown to people who don't know how to use google...


All you have to do to hide the information is use a tougher encryption on its recipe list. Or for that matter, technically the recipe list could be entirely server sided, and not in any of the PC sided game files. And if a recipe was off-the-wall requiring a lot of very hard to get materials, that most people wouldnt think to put together, then i could see some recipes being kept secret or completely unknown for a long time.
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#43 Sep 15 2011 at 5:39 PM Rating: Good
As far as doing it the hard way (using every possible combination of materials) if a game has only 1000 items, with 8 ingedient spots like ffxiv that would mean there is 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 possible recipes. If a game had 10,000 items... I am sure some recipes would never even be discovered as long as they were secured properly by the software developer.
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#44 Sep 15 2011 at 6:37 PM Rating: Default
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KaneKitty wrote:
From the article we've been discussing:

"However, unlike many MMOs that give you a set list of recipes based on your crafting level and then limit you to crafting only those recipes, Guild Wars 2's system allows players to experiment with different combinations of materials to see if they form a new recipe. Only guy on the server who's figured out how to make that badass warhammer? Don't tell anyone and monopolize the market!"


Bolded for emphasis.

Again, unless you are monopolizing the materials, you can't monopolize a recipe. The only thing that can keep someone from learning a recipe is not having access to the mats and not knowing which mats go together to make what.

StateAlchemist wrote:
As far as doing it the hard way (using every possible combination of materials) if a game has only 1000 items, with 8 ingedient spots like ffxiv that would mean there is 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 possible recipes. If a game had 10,000 items... I am sure some recipes would never even be discovered as long as they were secured properly by the software developer.

There are only 4 spots(currently) in the crafting interface. Also keep in mind that recipes are likely to follow some sort of order to making items ie. Blade X + Handle Y + Leather Z = Sword

Edited, Sep 15th 2011 8:45pm by FilthMcNasty
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#45 Sep 15 2011 at 6:51 PM Rating: Good
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StateAlchemist of Amestris wrote:
As far as doing it the hard way (using every possible combination of materials) if a game has only 1000 items, with 8 ingedient spots like ffxiv that would mean there is 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 possible recipes. If a game had 10,000 items... I am sure some recipes would never even be discovered as long as they were secured properly by the software developer.


If people have to resort to randomly inserting every single item in order to find some recipes, the designers have failed. Even without .dat mining, if someone has made an item, and the game functions like FFXIV, just taking a look at the item in game to see what colors and textures each piece is, you can more or less discern what each part is made of, then experiment knowing the formula for the given type of item, based on previous discoveries.

FFXIV's problem was never really discovery, in my opinion. It's just the lack of a decent recipe book. The average layman doesn't want to have to go look up every recipe online all the time, but they don't mind having to discover it the first time, if there's a decent way to do that in game, and a decent tutorial and introduction to that idea.
#46adawulfe, Posted: Jun 22 2012 at 4:01 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Crafting! LOL!
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