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Yoshida wants to give you a shining rodFollow

#1 Sep 14 2011 at 11:59 PM Rating: Good
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http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/18495-In-what-direction-are-armor-weapons-and-other-equipment-heading-in-the-future?p=337912#post337912



Naoki_Yoshia wrote:
Hello! This is Producer/Director Yoshida.

Sorry that this post is late!
Though this is mainly a thread about the recipe edits, since the discussion is largely shifting into gear limitations, I’d like to discuss about my plans for the future of equipment requirements!
This is uber-long, so please feel free to read it when you have some time.

Premise
I touched on this in yesterday’s post on the repair system, but I am planning to write about the basic direction I think about in terms of FFXIV and modern day MMORPGs. Please read that as well once the letter is released.
(Considering the current development situation, it seems like the letter will be released right before patch 1.19 goes live)

Importance of Individuality in MMORPGs

Of all online games, the MMO genre has thrived from everyone playing them for extremely long periods of time. Within MMORPGs, being able to individualize a character is a very important element that makes people continue to play for long periods of time.

Putting on rare equipment that other players don’t have, boasting your style by wearing equipment combinations others hadn’t even thought about, becoming the adventurer you dreamed of drawing a sword engulfed in flames! I am sure the wands that are shining with light that high level character equip will be a strong incentive to level up, clear content, and aim to be a great mage! (We will implement these kinds of weapons sometime soon lol.)

However, individuality is a really difficult theme for developers.
Especially with equipment, the appearance and the stats need to be inextricably linked.

Below I will discuss looking at MMORPGs from an item only standpoint.

Equipment Appearance and Stats

Since an item’s stats increase a characters abilities and make it easier to clear content, for players of course, the higher the stats the better.
Naturally, players will want these types of items and it will become a motivating factor for clearing content.
(Especially for end-game focused MMORPGs)

However, on the other hand, if everyone starts to equip these items placing emphasis on stats, the whole individuality of appearance will die.
On the developer side, they spend a lot of time and effort creating original designs that fit these items because they have such strong stats.
Due to this, the developers adjust the difficulty of obtaining these items so players can equip them.
Item wise, the content difficulty and drop rate are arranged based on this.
(For content difficulty we don’t really think of it based on reward, but it’s pretty complex so I will omit that portion)

When differences in obtainment difficult items are added, time lag will arise before everyone gets through it and it’s in this time period where we can preserve the individuality of appearance.
The development team works hard to make sure that this time lag does not fill up by preparing new content and original items, and also makes sure that the balance between appearance and stats is preserved.

On the flip side, appearance is extremely important, regardless of class, to role play as your own character. In the real world, I am pretty partial to western clothing lol.
If there is anyone who wears the same brand of clothing, I think there comes a time when you say to yourself “Hmm, maybe it’s time to try something new.”
In my case, if someone were to say “Game producers can’t wear these types of clothing!” I would think “at least let me wear what clothes I want!”

This is the same in the world of Eorzea. I believe it is a natural desire to enjoy the equipment coordinating and living life in Eorzea as you wish.

With that said, I would really like to place an importance on two kinds of desires:
I want to equip items with high stats before anyone else!
I want to have fun and look awesome by equipping a lot of things as I please!

This is a fundamental.

Balance between performance, appearance, and classes
When trying to allow freedom for both performance and appearance, it becomes very difficult, because the concept of classes must also be considered for battles.

In order to allow all gear to be equipped freely based on appearance with no worries about performance, every item must have the same stats. The following is an extreme example.

If a mage wearing full-plate armor is able to continue to cast spells with ease while being attacked by numerous monsters, I think there is something wrong. In addition, a third person watching this scene will not be able to distinguish whether the player is a mage or warrior. The individuality of the character itself will increase, but the individuality of warriors is lost. It is even safe to say that this game will not feel like an RPG. As a result it is necessary to implement restrictions such as, "mages cannot wear full-plate armor," or, "if mages wear full-plate armor, the gear will have very little effect."

In the case that we do not “allow mages to equip full-plate armor,” we will not have to consider whether to make the item weaker when mages equip it. Likewise, the problem of visualization can be averted too. The flipside of this is that the individual player’s freedom dies.

In the case that we allow "mages to equip full-plate armor as well but not allow it to exert its maximum potential," we will design the item so that it weakens when equipped by a mage. However, if full-plate armor turns out to be weaker than a robe, not only will players be upset but this will also break the balance of the game itself. The normal thought process would be, "Then I’ll just wear a robe when fighting!” At the same time, if the dev. team decides, "Well, it is a full-plate armor after all, so we might as well make it better than the robe," then Eorzea will be filled with sorcerers fighting in full-plate armor. Robes would go the way of dinosaurs.

If I were a mage wearing a robe because that is my image of a mage and my PT members tell me, “Mages should wear full-plate armor too!” that will be a major turnoff for me.

Let me pose a few examples:
“Uniqueness of an individual character” vs. “uniqueness granted to ‘classes’ such as Disciples of War/Magic” vs “uniqueness in the form of performance”
I understand that these are extreme examples but I believe they illustrate the reason why there are restrictions on equipment because unique characteristics can cancel each other out under certain conditions. We refer to this as the “player’s motivation.” However, we apologize for not making it clear as to which “uniqueness” this motivation was aimed at.

There is no Universal Answer
We want to keep the uniqueness of each characteristic, so there will be no black or white design change such as “We are going to put restrictions on all items!” or “None of the items will have restrictions!” This is because in order to appeal to as many players as possible in today’s world of MMORPGs, we must be able to cover many characteristics. It is easy to choose one universal option, but this will not make us competitive in the long run. As greedy as we may sound we will spare no effort in achieving this goal. We believe that it is best to have both and, in the end, it will come down to the “balance” of the content for each patch.

Allow me to lay down a scenario. A small group of hardcore players will skip sleep or the need to eat and jump into a high level battle right after it is released. These players will then be the first to obtain a shining rod that has devastating powers and can only be equipped by a black mage. Other players will gaze at these hardcore players with aspiration. However, in 3 months time, a solid strategy will be formulated and the difficulty level of the battle content will be adjusted too, allowing players “who cannot put their entire life into gaming” to eventually obtain the shining rod. On the other hand, the next battle content will arrive by that time and hardcore players will be able to continue challenging themselves. This is the ideal cycle for highest level items in end-game MMORPGs. (This is Final Fantasy so we plan on putting in slightly unusual features for items like Excalibur)

We believe that by overcoming content that is extremely difficult, restricted by level and class (job), and have low drop rate, players can achieve a true sense of accomplishment and superiority. This is also a unique characteristic. Please consider high level crafter recipes to fall under this category as well. (Of course, this will not mean that all recipes are going to)

Meanwhile, “basic” items that crafters make are divided by recommended level and since restrictions on class equipment is relaxed, a large number of items can be equipped by all classes. Even if individual effects may differ, the majority of cloth and leather items can be equipped by anybody. Certain restrictions may apply but the primary limitation will only be in the form of “This is for Disciples of War,” “this is for Disciples of Magic,” “this is for Disciples of the Hand,” “this is for Disciples of the Land,” etc. The only exception will be on equipment made out of metal. (Even my favorite Monster Hunter has minimal restrictions like swordsman/gunner. Changing weapons will switch classes. I think this is also the good thing about FFXIV’s armory system)

The restriction mentioned above materializes when a particular equipment is crafted with its “performance geared towards a specific class.” The overhaul on recipes this time is meant to add variety and allow crafters to craft equipment for general purposes or with certain classes in mind. The majority of the basic equipment will now have level recommendations but no class restrictions. However, with the implementation of materia craft and the eventual expansion of its system coupled with the competition over drop items from new battle content, the chances of the ultimate equipment being created are very much real. An item that matches the greatest level of freedom with extraordinary performance just might be born.

Final Thoughts

The number of “Equipment with many restrictions” and “equipment with relaxed restrictions” will both increase with the coming of patch 1.19 and beyond. The increase in new recipes for crafters will create more equipment with relaxed restrictions and the introduction of more difficult content will result in the gradual increase in class-specific equipments with many restrictions. The numbers of each equipment type introduced may differ by patch, but we are working carefully to keep them balanced. In the meantime, keep those opinions and feedback coming!

P.S.
I plan on making a post about material craft on Friday night but please give me some sleep time until then. ^^;
Also, I believe we can update you in the near future regarding the adjustments being made to the capacity of bags and number of retainers that can be owned.


Kind of interesting to hear his thought process on how to handle stuff. I'd like to see more forum posts like this.

Edited, Sep 15th 2011 2:00am by Sephrick
#2 Sep 15 2011 at 12:19 AM Rating: Good
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An interesting read, was reading this earlier before the translation, one thing I still disagree with is this statement...

Naoki_Yoshida wrote:
In order to allow all gear to be equipped freely based on appearance with no worries about performance, every item must have the same stats.


What rule is there saying that stats can not simply be tailored so strongly one direction or another on an item, that wearing the gear on an incompatible class results in the degradation of certain abilities?

If wearing robes was important enough of a contribution to INT/MP for a mage, sacrificing that for the defense of platemail would only be viable in a limited number of situations, and would cripple the mage's ability to perform their magic to the degree that it would not be optimal, without putting any penalties on the player for wearing it, or making gear all have the same stats, but instead giving the character a bonus for wearing gear that matches their focus.

I'm sure this method was considered, and dropped quickly, due to the amount of adjustment that would be required, seeing as currently, gear has so little affect on player stats other than defense, but it's definitely a viable approach.

The reality would be that in party situations, excepting extreme circumstances, wearing role-focused gear would always be best, tanks wear plate, mages wear cloth, etc. Out and about, mages could sacrifice MP for defense for soloing, tanks could sacrifice defense for speed, etc. And the problem of visual identification is totally a non-issue, when you consider that players weapons determine their class. Even if someone is wearing full platemail, if they're holding a staff and casting spells, it's not hard to figure out what they are.



Edit: Also, I'm probably the only one, but I'm hoping against hope that any weapons they add with particle effects surrounding them only "activate" when you draw them. Everyone running around town with glowy weapons sheathed is going to drive me nuts.

Edited, Sep 14th 2011 11:28pm by RamseySylph
#3 Sep 15 2011 at 1:09 AM Rating: Good
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Maybe it's only me, but it sounds like they are wayyyy overthinking this. Am I the only one who simply wants to look like a mage if I play a mage job? Traditional FF classes/jobs have such a strong identity and classic look, I see no reason why I would ever want to wear plate armor on my White Mage instead of its iconic white & red robe. I don't ever picture myself wanting to wear a robe on a Warrior-type class either. If I play a BLM, let me look as black magey as possible, don't give me chainmail to wear...

It just sounds like they are trying too hard to please everyone and coming up with this complicated system to try and give people individuality without having to implement too many new sets of armor.

Plus he mentions sticking with the 1 weapon/1 class thing, which I hate. You say you strive to give people more individuality, yet you tie them down to a single weapon choice. What's so complicated with letting people simply change class on the fly, no matter what weapon they're holding?

And he's been going on and on about making FFXIV stick out from other MMOs, yet he's clearly going for end game with the classic WoW mentality of putting out a new dungeon/raid/instance every few months, with most of the new gear found inside obsoleting everything that came before it. I've never been able to stand that model, and I'm pretty sure things won't change with FFXIV. I've never understood the appeal of putting out content only to see it become worthless and very rarely ran/used within a few months, feels like a waste of development time.
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#4 Sep 15 2011 at 1:31 AM Rating: Excellent
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You know, maybe I'm crazy, but why not just have a blank template for a type of gear with a level requirement and base stats.. and then give gamers the ability to select from dozens of different types of shirts/chestpieces, for example. They can choose coloring, size, fit, detailing, etc.

I guarantee no one would remotely look alike and it would take the burden off the developers to keep making new stuff. Let the gamers dress themselves.
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#5 Sep 15 2011 at 4:12 AM Rating: Good
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or have an appearance tab... done & done xD
#6 Sep 15 2011 at 7:14 AM Rating: Good
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Bruknarr wrote:
Maybe it's only me, but it sounds like they are wayyyy overthinking this. Am I the only one who simply wants to look like a mage if I play a mage job? Traditional FF classes/jobs have such a strong identity and classic look, I see no reason why I would ever want to wear plate armor on my White Mage instead of its iconic white & red robe. I don't ever picture myself wanting to wear a robe on a Warrior-type class either. If I play a BLM, let me look as black magey as possible, don't give me chainmail to wear...


You can still choose to look as "Black Magey" as possible, and certainly, with job specific gear, and with raid gear being the best for you obviously being the type of equipment associated with "black magey-ness" that would be the case.

On the other hand, there's no reason to impede the freedom of other players to mess around.

As for why they've taken this approach in the first place... The game's original direction did not involve jobs like Black Mage, Paladin, etc. It was a job-less game, they wanted you to build your own character, with skills and equipment, etc, the way you wanted to.

Unfortunately, they also half committed to that idea, locking weapon to class, providing no incentives for cross classing in specific manners, making gear nearly worthless when non-optimal, and making optimal rigidly stuck to each class type etc.

Now they're in a pickle, lots of players love the freedom of being able to wear whatever they want. Heck I do, I enjoy running around in cool outfits. The Final Fantasy series is full of weird cross-class characters wearing strange amalgamations of various armor types in the non-job FFs.

On the one hand, they're steering the game into being a very traditional job based MMO, since it's the easier path than trying to fix a job-less system. On the other hand, as I said, people have come to expect the freedom. I suppose meeting somewhere in the middle is their solution. Not sure it's the best one, but I don't think they're overthinking it.

MishaNevarian wrote:
or have an appearance tab... done & done xD


Yes, because I am 100% sure that after spending paragraphs and paragraphs droning on and on about visual appearance and its correlation to stats, and being able to see what type of player someone is, they'll just put in an appearance tab.

That way you can look like you're wearing plate, but really be wearing epic robes...wait...

Anyways, appearance tabs are all well and good, they work for F2P MMOs where costumes are a huge amount of revenue, but unfortunately, there are just as many downsides to that approach as any other.
#7 Sep 15 2011 at 7:56 AM Rating: Decent
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Dude, get some sleep. That was convoluted as @#%^.

Talking about Yoshi-P's adrena-ffeine wordgasm up there.

Edited, Sep 15th 2011 9:57am by Almalexia
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#8 Sep 15 2011 at 8:55 AM Rating: Excellent
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RamseySylph wrote:
An interesting read, was reading this earlier before the translation, one thing I still disagree with is this statement...

Naoki_Yoshida wrote:
In order to allow all gear to be equipped freely based on appearance with no worries about performance, every item must have the same stats.


What rule is there saying that stats can not simply be tailored so strongly one direction or another on an item, that wearing the gear on an incompatible class results in the degradation of certain abilities?

I think what he is saying here is that: If you want players to have total freedom when choosing what they look like, every item must have the same stats. Otherwise, players will naturally gravitate towards optimized builds, while others, who want individuality, will feel ostracized by the general community who believe the only correct way to play a class is in Gear Type A.

He is not suggesting that this is the correct way to itemize gear, but rather that it is the only way to give total freedom to the players when choosing gear. He the goes on to explain the other side of the issue.
#9 Sep 15 2011 at 9:39 AM Rating: Excellent
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if they want players to completely decide what they look like, while still having the freedom to choose stats the way they want, they could just implement the wardrobe feature that rift and LOTRO use.
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#10 Sep 15 2011 at 9:50 AM Rating: Decent
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To people who want dressing rooms, or systems where your look don't match your stats,

The problem is that using those systems, seeing someone no longer gives you long term goals.

If everyone can dress the way they want and are happy with the outfit they customized, then the loot they got from the dungeon no longer display their position/power/achievements, which means fewer people will be tempted to go after these.

It's in the developper's interest to try to use players as advertisement for their own content and get players to play the game more, which is why they're staying away from the custom look that isn't related to stats.

And to pseudo quote the villain from the Incredibles "If everyone is special, then it no one really is."


TLDR; I'm against these systems, because as far as player motivation go, they're not that great.
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#11 Sep 15 2011 at 10:05 AM Rating: Excellent
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Docent42 wrote:
To people who want dressing rooms, or systems where your look don't match your stats,

The problem is that using those systems, seeing someone no longer gives you long term goals.

If everyone can dress the way they want and are happy with the outfit they customized, then the loot they got from the dungeon no longer display their position/power/achievements, which means fewer people will be tempted to go after these.

It's in the developper's interest to try to use players as advertisement for their own content and get players to play the game more, which is why they're staying away from the custom look that isn't related to stats.

TLDR; I'm against these systems, because as far as player motivation go, they're not that great.


I agree with you, which is why I think that, if they allow any kind of wardrobe system, then the kinds of equipment that someone wears needs to have some restrictions still. For example: a level 1 should not be able to wear the "look" of level 50 robes, regardless of the stats they would give; a level 50, however, can choose from whatever gear he/she wants.

This way, there is still motivation to get the most unique/rare/cool-looking gear - both for looks an for stats - as well as no mandate to display it if you don't like the way it looks (i.e., you can move its stats to something else). I think this sufficiently appeals to both sides.
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#12 Sep 15 2011 at 11:30 AM Rating: Good
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I think there is still plenty of long term goals to be had even with wardrobe systems. You still need stats, that's something wardrobes can't give you, so players will still aim for more powerful gear to push them along. That is why people still raid in Rift, still do fortress sieges in Aion, still do the storyline quests in LotRO, ect.

Give the players the ability to look how they want, while only giving them the stats of their actual equipped gear and people will still want to advance all the while feeling more customization freedom. Casual players aren't going to want to do raids and whatnot anyhow, while raids are going to raid to gear up for the next raid, so in the end the wardrobe system doesn't really change much, if anything, of the current dynamic. You can wardrobe your armor and weapons, but the weapon skins must stay within your calling, so a Marauder will always be using an axe no matter what that axe happens to look like.

I used to roam around in UO with a red robe over my dragon plate armor all the time, simply because I looked better that way. I was still a fighter in every respect when I brought out my axe though.
#13 Sep 15 2011 at 1:25 PM Rating: Good
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Naoki_Yoshia wrote:
Hello! This is Producer/Director Yoshida.
This is uber-long, so please feel free to read it when you have some time.


How does one translate to the word "uber"?
#14 Sep 15 2011 at 1:39 PM Rating: Good
Vawn43 wrote:

Naoki_Yoshia wrote:
Hello! This is Producer/Director Yoshida.
This is uber-long, so please feel free to read it when you have some time.


How does one translate to the word "uber"?


Well 'über' in German can be translated into English as a preposition meaning 'beyond'. So for example in this situation it would mean beyond-long, or overly-long. In the same context calling someone an uberleethaxor, would basically mean he is a hacker in a class above even the people considered elite in the field of hacking.

I would assume that it has a variant translation in many languages, including Japanese.

Edited, Sep 15th 2011 3:41pm by StateAlchemist

Edited, Sep 15th 2011 3:43pm by StateAlchemist

Edited, Sep 15th 2011 3:44pm by StateAlchemist
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#15 Sep 15 2011 at 8:12 PM Rating: Good
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Hulan wrote:
RamseySylph wrote:
An interesting read, was reading this earlier before the translation, one thing I still disagree with is this statement...

Naoki_Yoshida wrote:
In order to allow all gear to be equipped freely based on appearance with no worries about performance, every item must have the same stats.


What rule is there saying that stats can not simply be tailored so strongly one direction or another on an item, that wearing the gear on an incompatible class results in the degradation of certain abilities?

I think what he is saying here is that: If you want players to have total freedom when choosing what they look like, every item must have the same stats. Otherwise, players will naturally gravitate towards optimized builds, while others, who want individuality, will feel ostracized by the general community who believe the only correct way to play a class is in Gear Type A.

He is not suggesting that this is the correct way to itemize gear, but rather that it is the only way to give total freedom to the players when choosing gear. He the goes on to explain the other side of the issue.


Yes, the other side of the coin, at least as he mentions it in this discussion is that you can basically nerf the gear when worn by a non-optimal class. So the two choices are, all gear is the same, or non-optimal gear is nerfed?

That's what I am arguing, that's not really true. There are other options, such as making gear have such a strong impact on player stats, and varying so greatly based on the nature of the item, that one needs to wear gear that is focused on the type of stats they need to perform their role.

For instance, a mage who wants to get the best performance doing mage-focused activities that require mage-focused stats has to wear mage-focused gear. Whether it's a cotton robe, or a super-duper-magic-raid-boss robe, it's going to have a strong impact on those mage stats, obviously the super-duper robe is going to have stronger bonuses. But the point is, why not reward players for using gear that's focused on their focus, as opposed to punishing players for wearing non-focus gear.
#16 Sep 15 2011 at 9:09 PM Rating: Decent
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hexaemeron wrote:
You know, maybe I'm crazy, but why not just have a blank template for a type of gear with a level requirement and base stats.. and then give gamers the ability to select from dozens of different types of shirts/chestpieces, for example. They can choose coloring, size, fit, detailing, etc.

I guarantee no one would remotely look alike and it would take the burden off the developers to keep making new stuff. Let the gamers dress themselves.


This. Yoshi is overly complicating things.
#17 Sep 15 2011 at 10:29 PM Rating: Excellent
CupDeNoodles (love that name),

I think the biggest problem with letting players dress themselves is that then players get exactly the look they want right away, and then that's one less thing to work toward.

I just recently bought subligar and a leather harness for my gladiator, when I dinged rank 33. I think my ascent from rank 33 to rank 35 went by much faster so that I could get out of that leather harness! And if my personal life didn't have so much upheaval over the past two weeks, I'd already be out of the subligar too.

Anyway, progression is progression, and I like the idea of not being able to have everything I want handed to me. Knowing that I could just push a few buttons and change my whole look would seem rather... anti-climactic and empty.
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#18 Sep 15 2011 at 11:15 PM Rating: Decent
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Wardrobes are for F2P and freemium models. The reality is, F2P vs P2P models rely on providing very different services and experiences for their customers/players.
#19 Sep 16 2011 at 8:04 AM Rating: Good
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Yoshida wrote:
However, in 3 months time, a solid strategy will be formulated and the difficulty level of the battle content will be adjusted too, allowing players “who cannot put their entire life into gaming” to eventually obtain the shining rod. On the other hand, the next battle content will arrive by that time and hardcore players will be able to continue challenging themselves. This is the ideal cycle for highest level items in end-game MMORPGs.

I can't agree with this philosophy. I remember when Yoshida said they were planning for level cap increases "every year or two," I believe. I was hoping items would at least have that long a shelf life, but it looks like there will be a lot of turnover every few months.. And not only that, but they'll almost immediately make the content easier so they can jam the item(s) into as many players' inventories as possible?

If I were a casual player, and since my anima is 100 right now I think I have been recently, I wouldn't want the content made easier so I can clear it. They have it backwards. The casual, or any player, is supposed to rise to the occasion, not have the occasion fall to them.
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#20 Sep 16 2011 at 9:00 AM Rating: Excellent
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Docent42 wrote:
To people who want dressing rooms, or systems where your look don't match your stats,

The problem is that using those systems, seeing someone no longer gives you long term goals.

If everyone can dress the way they want and are happy with the outfit they customized, then the loot they got from the dungeon no longer display their position/power/achievements, which means fewer people will be tempted to go after these.

It's in the developper's interest to try to use players as advertisement for their own content and get players to play the game more, which is why they're staying away from the custom look that isn't related to stats.

And to pseudo quote the villain from the Incredibles "If everyone is special, then it no one really is."


TLDR; I'm against these systems, because as far as player motivation go, they're not that great.


I partially agree with you I guess. On the one hand, yes people who only care about what they look like will have less motivation to go ahead stop caring when they finish their look, but oh well. they clearly wern't focused on stats or whatever to begin with. I think its all subjective. where you see people losing motivation to work on gear after they get their look, I see it having to work on 2 sets of gear to get the look and stats I want. Most people are still going to want that armor upgrade for the stats even after their happy with how their level 20 armor set combination looks.

Really, I dont care for the wardrobe one way or another. I like it in rift because it allows me to hide gear that stands out or clashes. It fixes the issue I had with FFXI where I loved how my DRG af looked awesome, but most of the pices were switched out for some subligar or something. I only actually mentioned it because yoshi seemed to be suggesting a far more complicated system of allowing people the stats and look that they want.
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#21 Sep 16 2011 at 9:22 AM Rating: Decent
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KujaKoF wrote:
I think its all subjective. where you see people losing motivation to work on gear after they get their look, I see it having to work on 2 sets of gear to get the look and stats I want.

I just want to point out that it's fallacious to think everyone plays games and are motivated by similar reasons we are.

I personally sit in a boat similar to yours- I go for most gear for the stats, I pick a set for town look, and I am pretty satisfied.

Some people actually like to wear the most gaudy gear and will proudly show it off. (Optical Hat, Onion/Peregine helms, anyone?)

Some people will actually go as far as refusing to wear best in slot gear because it looks horrible (Male Hume with Dragon Subliar in FFXI?)

Some people will level jobs solely for the ability to wear some specific gear as town wear because of how awesome/unique it looks (Kyudogi)

I find that most of the wardrobes system hurt the game (most players are perfectly fine with looking good while wearing the best gear) because it doesn't create those kind of interesting/difficult decisions for players. It's a case of wanting the cake and eating it too.
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#22 Sep 16 2011 at 2:35 PM Rating: Decent
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Thayos wrote:
CupDeNoodles (love that name),

I think the biggest problem with letting players dress themselves is that then players get exactly the look they want right away, and then that's one less thing to work toward.

I just recently bought subligar and a leather harness for my gladiator, when I dinged rank 33. I think my ascent from rank 33 to rank 35 went by much faster so that I could get out of that leather harness! And if my personal life didn't have so much upheaval over the past two weeks, I'd already be out of the subligar too.

Anyway, progression is progression, and I like the idea of not being able to have everything I want handed to me. Knowing that I could just push a few buttons and change my whole look would seem rather... anti-climactic and empty.


The way I looked at it though is that each set of armor has it's own predetermined templates. In other words two people have that leetshinybigsuitofarmor end game piece and could say, change the color or remove certain parts of it to suit their own look.

They still have something to work towards but when they do have that piece of armor they can then customize the look not the stats on it. It would eliminate people who are clones of each other in appearance but the stats would be the same.

Blue trim instead of gold. Black shoulder pads with a pink base color. Remove those dangilly parts but keep the hood. At some point or another you'll start seeing *** pride parades through Ul'dah.

Honestly I don't care if everyone ran around with the same end game gear piece that never changes. I'm just saying that Yoshi is over thinking and there are far simpler ways of doing things.
#23 Sep 16 2011 at 2:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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The answer is transmogrification.
Aion did something like this from the get-go.

I don't really care much either way, but it seems to handle all the concerns--you can't wear whatever you want, but you don't have have to give up the styles you currently love just for better stats. You'll still see other players in gear that is unattainable at the moment (when new top gear is released, people will wear it; there will be rare lower level gear that people will be rocking), so you'll still have something to strive for while also having flexibility in your appearance.
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#24 Sep 16 2011 at 2:49 PM Rating: Good
I would be happy if all they did was allow any non-unique items fully color customizable post-production. Then if you sell an item, it reverts to default colorization, and the buyer would then have to dye it themselves if they wanted it a certain color. For that matter, if they wanted to take it one step further...they could offer "unique" dyes for events or maybe as a rare drop from whatever, which didn't just dye a color, but offer a unique pattern on a certain type of item or items.

Edited, Sep 16th 2011 4:49pm by StateAlchemist

Edited, Sep 16th 2011 4:52pm by StateAlchemist
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#25 Sep 16 2011 at 3:00 PM Rating: Good
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Coyohma wrote:
Yoshida wrote:
However, in 3 months time, a solid strategy will be formulated and the difficulty level of the battle content will be adjusted too, allowing players “who cannot put their entire life into gaming” to eventually obtain the shining rod. On the other hand, the next battle content will arrive by that time and hardcore players will be able to continue challenging themselves. This is the ideal cycle for highest level items in end-game MMORPGs.

I can't agree with this philosophy. I remember when Yoshida said they were planning for level cap increases "every year or two," I believe. I was hoping items would at least have that long a shelf life, but it looks like there will be a lot of turnover every few months.. And not only that, but they'll almost immediately make the content easier so they can jam the item(s) into as many players' inventories as possible?

If I were a casual player, and since my anima is 100 right now I think I have been recently, I wouldn't want the content made easier so I can clear it. They have it backwards. The casual, or any player, is supposed to rise to the occasion, not have the occasion fall to them.

This is a great strategy--if you don't want to expand your playerbase. If a new player cannot possibly catch up to his friends at top levels--which he won't in your system, because leveling and acquiring good items will take just as long for him as it did the people who have been playing 12-24 months to get to this point--he or she simply won't play. I know I wouldn't. You need a pace car, a way for noobs to catch up.

Now, you could argue that level caps take care of that, and you don't need great gear or achievements to get past the previous level cap, but if the higher quality items and more challenging content at the previous level cap suddenly become irrelevant, then no one will bother acquiring them in the future or trying to tackle them (as is the case with many lower level raids in WoW). So it just becomes disused, irrelevant content--and SE doesn't have the content to spare! Why let old content atrophy when new content is added, instead of making it part of the leveling process--without needing a group of amazing players to tackle (because you simply won't find a big group of players willing to do older content at the appropriate gearing or level after an expansion).
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#26 Sep 16 2011 at 3:39 PM Rating: Good
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FF11 was rigid you could get booted from a party because of equipment just running up to the group and they see what your'e wearing.This seems more like you'll get booted after you join (If you suck).
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#27 Sep 16 2011 at 6:49 PM Rating: Decent
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465 posts
yfaithfully wrote:
This is a great strategy--if you don't want to expand your playerbase. If a new player cannot possibly catch up to his friends at top levels--which he won't in your system, because leveling and acquiring good items will take just as long for him as it did the people who have been playing 12-24 months to get to this point--he or she simply won't play. I know I wouldn't. You need a pace car, a way for noobs to catch up.

I don't know where you're getting leveling speed from; that wasn't really a factor in what I was talking about. As far as "good items," I address that below. But as far as the time it takes to level and obtain the current best "endgame" items, I really didn't speak to that.. And by all indications they mean it to be a fast process to catch up.

yfaithfully wrote:
Now, you could argue that level caps take care of that, and you don't need great gear or achievements to get past the previous level cap, but if the higher quality items and more challenging content at the previous level cap suddenly become irrelevant, then no one will bother acquiring them in the future or trying to tackle them (as is the case with many lower level raids in WoW). So it just becomes disused, irrelevant content--and SE doesn't have the content to spare! Why let old content atrophy when new content is added, instead of making it part of the leveling process--without needing a group of amazing players to tackle (because you simply won't find a big group of players willing to do older content at the appropriate gearing or level after an expansion).

Sure, I would argue those points.

I think you're assuming that the older raids and older content will be the best way to gain EXP? So, get EXP and good (but not the best) gear by doing older content, and when you're at cap do the most current things for the best gear? That's a pretty big assumption..

My bet would be the best EXP would be elsewhere and people will go with that, and then go after the best gear, the most current content, after they hit the cap. So, all that older content you wanted to keep people on is deserted.

But.. With the added benefit of "Nice drop, that's the best body piece for MRD.." "Eh, whatever, there'll be something better next month."

Along with.. "Wanna get a couple more to do that raid?" "No need, we can duo, they made it a lot easier." "Oh.. That's a shame, I really enjoyed it the way it was, it used to be a challenge.."

What a memorable experiance =/

I'm still not exactly sure how you're arguing older content my way would become obsolete.. When I'm the one saying not to introduce gear upgrades every few months.
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#28 Sep 17 2011 at 9:31 AM Rating: Decent
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Bring back the death penalty.
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#29 Sep 17 2011 at 10:46 AM Rating: Excellent
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Wouldn't it be easier to simply have a set of "appearance gear" and a set of "stat gear". It would allow for people to be seen in the armor that's the best combination of style and class (For example it would let the lancer provide himself with the best stated and still appear to wear the masks that all the wailers wear [but are not geared for lancers]). The concept works simply enough in DCUO. Why not here.
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#30 Sep 17 2011 at 2:22 PM Rating: Decent
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DeSage wrote:
Wouldn't it be easier to simply have a set of "appearance gear" and a set of "stat gear". It would allow for people to be seen in the armor that's the best combination of style and class (For example it would let the lancer provide himself with the best stated and still appear to wear the masks that all the wailers wear [but are not geared for lancers]). The concept works simply enough in DCUO. Why not here.


There's already about 10 responses in this very thread as to why this would be a bad choice for this particular game.
#31 Sep 17 2011 at 2:44 PM Rating: Excellent
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RamseySylph wrote:
DeSage wrote:
Wouldn't it be easier to simply have a set of "appearance gear" and a set of "stat gear". It would allow for people to be seen in the armor that's the best combination of style and class (For example it would let the lancer provide himself with the best stated and still appear to wear the masks that all the wailers wear [but are not geared for lancers]). The concept works simply enough in DCUO. Why not here.


There's already about 10 responses in this very thread as to why this would be a bad choice for this particular game.


I don't think there's actually been a good reason as to why it would be bad, I've just read a bunch of people say they wouldn't like it?
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#32 Sep 17 2011 at 7:48 PM Rating: Good
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reading through some of the posts, if your going to have a system where people can dress how they wanted, why not make it so if you wanted to look a certain way, you need to actually have that piece of gear. we would obviously need more storage space, but then i wouldn't have to see that fugly piece of gear with good stats, but people will know i achieved that item because i have to own the gear to have the stats.
#33 Sep 17 2011 at 8:48 PM Rating: Decent
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You people arguing for a wardrobe system, need to realize one important thing.

Regardless of the relative merits of these systems, in Yoshida's letter he states that one reason he would not like to have a system where players can freely wear and benefit from anything, is that the player's appearance would fail to represent their character.

So whether it's a good idea or not, whether those who argue for or against the idea have the correct or incorrect opinion... The game's director, and by extension the development team, feels that a character's appearance reflecting their stats and character role is important.

A wardrobe system undermines that ideal more than letting mages wear fancy plate.
#34 Sep 17 2011 at 9:16 PM Rating: Good
RamseySylph wrote:
You people arguing for a wardrobe system, need to realize one important thing.

Regardless of the relative merits of these systems, in Yoshida's letter he states that one reason he would not like to have a system where players can freely wear and benefit from anything, is that the player's appearance would fail to represent their character.

So whether it's a good idea or not, whether those who argue for or against the idea have the correct or incorrect opinion... The game's director, and by extension the development team, feels that a character's appearance reflecting their stats and character role is important.

A wardrobe system undermines that ideal more than letting mages wear fancy plate.


Pharaoh Yoshi-P has spoken. So let it be written. So let it be done. Smiley: lol
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#35 Sep 17 2011 at 11:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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RamseySylph wrote:
You people arguing for a wardrobe system, need to realize one important thing.

Regardless of the relative merits of these systems, in Yoshida's letter he states that one reason he would not like to have a system where players can freely wear and benefit from anything, is that the player's appearance would fail to represent their character.

So whether it's a good idea or not, whether those who argue for or against the idea have the correct or incorrect opinion... The game's director, and by extension the development team, feels that a character's appearance reflecting their stats and character role is important.

A wardrobe system undermines that ideal more than letting mages wear fancy plate.


just like when ffxiv launched, just because the "director says so, so it shall be" doesnt mean there making the best or a good decision. if a wardrobe system, if done correctly, increases enjoyment in a game where there is little to enjoy, why not add one? and if the dev team isn't going to make one, which im 99% sure they won't, they better make gear that looks good, because that optical hat (ffxi) left something to be desired.
#36 Sep 17 2011 at 11:48 PM Rating: Decent
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3,962 posts
Keysofgaruda wrote:
RamseySylph wrote:
You people arguing for a wardrobe system, need to realize one important thing.

Regardless of the relative merits of these systems, in Yoshida's letter he states that one reason he would not like to have a system where players can freely wear and benefit from anything, is that the player's appearance would fail to represent their character.

So whether it's a good idea or not, whether those who argue for or against the idea have the correct or incorrect opinion... The game's director, and by extension the development team, feels that a character's appearance reflecting their stats and character role is important.

A wardrobe system undermines that ideal more than letting mages wear fancy plate.


just like when ffxiv launched, just because the "director says so, so it shall be" doesnt mean there making the best or a good decision. if a wardrobe system, if done correctly, increases enjoyment in a game where there is little to enjoy, why not add one? and if the dev team isn't going to make one, which im 99% sure they won't, they better make gear that looks good, because that optical hat (ffxi) left something to be desired.


Whether it increases enjoyment or not is subjective. From a purely economic/academic game design standpoint, a wardrobe system is almost always the wrong decision in a pay-to-play MMO.
#37 Sep 17 2011 at 11:59 PM Rating: Default
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not to mention the decision has already been made. moot point and all.
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#38 Sep 18 2011 at 4:57 AM Rating: Good
Keysofgaruda wrote:
just like when ffxiv launched, just because the "director says so, so it shall be" doesnt mean there making the best or a good decision.

I was just trying to make a joke.
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#39 Sep 18 2011 at 3:15 PM Rating: Decent
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i actually wasn't quoting you on that i know you were joking lol, i was just trying to make a point, which coincidentally looked like i was quoting you.
#40 Sep 19 2011 at 9:11 AM Rating: Excellent
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RamseySylph wrote:
Keysofgaruda wrote:
RamseySylph wrote:
You people arguing for a wardrobe system, need to realize one important thing.

Regardless of the relative merits of these systems, in Yoshida's letter he states that one reason he would not like to have a system where players can freely wear and benefit from anything, is that the player's appearance would fail to represent their character.

So whether it's a good idea or not, whether those who argue for or against the idea have the correct or incorrect opinion... The game's director, and by extension the development team, feels that a character's appearance reflecting their stats and character role is important.

A wardrobe system undermines that ideal more than letting mages wear fancy plate.


just like when ffxiv launched, just because the "director says so, so it shall be" doesnt mean there making the best or a good decision. if a wardrobe system, if done correctly, increases enjoyment in a game where there is little to enjoy, why not add one? and if the dev team isn't going to make one, which im 99% sure they won't, they better make gear that looks good, because that optical hat (ffxi) left something to be desired.


Whether it increases enjoyment or not is subjective. From a purely economic/academic game design standpoint, a wardrobe system is almost always the wrong decision in a pay-to-play MMO.


Look I don't care one way or the other if they put one in. I just think its the simplest way to let mages wear shiny plate if thats what they're into. But seriously though, do you actually have anything to back that up. Why is it economically bad? inflating the price of better looking stuff? How is it academically bad? Are you just saying things?
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#41 Sep 19 2011 at 9:33 AM Rating: Good
I agree that post-synthesis dyes are the way to go.

There would be mats (some of them very rare) required to make dyes that Alchemists can make and sell. This allows everyone to customize to a certain extent. I really enjoyed hunting for black dyes in Ashron's Call 2. Took time and money to assemble a complete suit of any one color.

I agree that that equip itself needs to be recognizable to indicate class/rank.
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