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Details on Materia CraftFollow

#1 Sep 16 2011 at 5:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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Relevant link:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/22225-dev1017-Materia-crafting-system-Materia-A-Matter-of-Mystery-%2808-26-2011%29?p=341351#post341351

Yoshi-P wrote:
Hello! Producer/Director Yoshida here.

This will be my last long post for the week!
As you have all been waiting patiently for info, the first half of this post will be about the materia craft concept and the latter encompassing the specifications. The numbers for the sample specs are still under adjustment, so please understand that these values may change before release.

Since this is a pretty lengthy amount of text, feel free to enjoy it in your down time over the weekend or in between playing!

The Aim of Materia Craft
The whole goal of materia craft is to create a system where crafters, gatherers, and battle classes can all play together. Materia is developed through battles and crafting, and attached to weapons and equipment that was created by crafters and gatherers. This plan was designed so that this relationship and style of playing will circulate endlessly even if higher tier craft items are added.

Below is a snippet from the synopsis I created.

Materia is an item that is made up of crystallized memories of a piece of equipment that you possessed a spirit bond with and deemed its role was finished. Materia cannot be used alone and it will become a material for crafters using the new synthesis system, "materia crafting." (Original text)

This has just about been implemented just like this.

Converting Weapons and Armor to Materia
In MMORPGs a ton of weapons and armor are introduced into the game.
Even for the items you earn when leveling your character, all players develop some sort of bond or memory with them much more for MMORPGs than console RPGs.
Even if you obtain really powerful weapons and armor, since you just obtained them, you won’t have as much of a bond or any memories like you do with the gear you are currently using. However, your memories and bond are bottled up inside the weapons and armor that you have been using until now. Materia is just that! A crystallization of those memories and bonds.

Since materia is filled with that bond, it will serve to power-up you next piece of equipment. This was essentially my thinking when this plan was formulated.

Materia Attachment to New Weapons and Armor
Attaching materia to a brand-new piece of equipment has a 100% success rate. The reason for attachment being 100% is ensure than you can inherit the memories and bond that filled the equipment you used up until now. Furthermore, it’s possible to attach materia to all 7 slots of your character equipment (besides accessories), so you will be able to make really significant enhancements if you attach materia to each slot.

However, since materia is solidly inserted, if you remove a materia that has been attached, it will be destroyed. With this said, make sure to carefully select which item you want to attach that materia which is filled with spirit bond.

Until this point, it is the pinnacle of casual as anyone that spends a bit of time can do this.

Forbidden Materia Craft
The "forbidden materia craft" was created to forcibly add multiple additional "memories" to a single weapon or piece of armor.

This craft is forbidden because adding more than one materia is pushing the limits of the item and includes a high risk alongside it. Therefore taking part in this will include a huge risk. If successful, a single weapon or piece of armor will be equipped with at least two materia, and the power of the materia will cumulate to strengthen the player’s abilities. However, if this process fails, both the gear and materia will be destroyed in the resulting explosion.

Upcoming battle content will be balanced based on regular materia craft. The forbidden materia craft will not be involved in balance considerations, so there is no need to worry. By using the forbidden materia craft, it may result in the emergence of incredibly strong players, but we think that this is well deserved considering the level of risks involved.

Materia Created from Weapons and Armor
Now I’ll discuss the specifications of the materia system.
We have plans to update the Lodestone announcement accordingly prior to the release of patch 1.19.

As we previously stated in the announcement, materia includes four tiers of potency:
Materia I (small effect)
Materia II (medium effect)
Materia III (large effect)
Materia IV (very large effect)
An equipment’s level will have an impact on what materia tier will be created, along with the chance of creating a higher tier materia. For example, if you were to transform a level 1 item into a materia, it will have a high chance of creating a tier I materia. In addition, it will have a very small chance of creating a materia one tier higher (in this case, a tier II).

On the other hand, a tier III or IV materia will not be created through a level 1 item.
Basically, the higher level the item is, the higher the chance it will create a grade III or IV materia.

In order to create a materia, the spiritbond level on the item must be maxed out.
The spiritbond level on an item is increased through usage, such as using them in battle. If the item is used in battle, the rate that spiritbond will increase will differ depending on the enemy you fight and if the item is optimal for your level. If you were to use an optimal item, the spiritbond level will be maxed out within a few hours of play time.

Once the spiritbond level is maxed, you will have the option of turning the item into a materia via command. It will not automatically turn into a materia upon the max level of spiritbond.

Generally, only crafted items can be materialized at max spiritbond level. Additionally, items with materia already attached can also be turned into materia. However, it will have no impact on the material that will be produced.
You will not be able to turn powerful items, such as unique/untradeable items obtained from notorious monsters, into materia.

Details Regarding the Different Types of Materia
We plan to implement about 80 types of materia in patch 1.19.
There will be various types of materia such as "Intelligence (increases INT)" and "Ironman’s Will (increases STR and VIT)."
The 80 types of materia are not randomly generated from weapons and armor. There is a pattern regarding what kind of materia is produced (i.e. INT materia will not be produced from swords and axes, etc.)

The Difference Between Materia I and Materia IV
I will use the “Vitality” materia to explain the tier differences.

Materia I / Materia II / Materia III / Materia IV - “Vitality”
Effect: Increases max HP
Where the materia can be attached: Shield / Body / Legs / Feet / Belt (5 locations total)
Maximum stat bonus obtained via combined materia: +280
Maximum stat obtained from a Materia IV: +28
The difference between a tier I materia and a tier IV materia lies in the amount of HP increased through a single materia. For example, a tier I will grant you +5 HP per materia and the tier IV will grant you +28 HP per materia.

In addition, not all tier IV "Vitality" materia will grant you +28 HP. In some cases, it may give you +24 HP, etc.

What Equipment Can Materia be Attached to
Materia can be equipped on the following seven parts:

Weapons(Main weapon/shield) / Head / Body / Hands / Legs / Feet / Belt

Any type of materia can be infused to a weapon (main weapon)/shield without any other materia with 100% success rate. When infusing materia, a catalyst item obtained by gatherers will be necessary. When removing materia from a weapon (main weapon)/shield, the materia will be destroyed.

Maximum Materia Limits
Multiple materia can be equipped at once, and using the forbidden materia craft will enable users to equip a higher number of materia. As such, each parameter will have an upper limit set up (example: HP increase will be capped at +280 for all gear equipped).

Success Rates for Forbidden Materia Craft
Success rates will be determined for forbidden materia craft, and success rates will differ based on whether two or three materia are infused. Whether or not the item to be infused with materia is HQ or not will also affect success rates. More powerful materia, such as tier IV, will have lower success rates, and the type of materia already infused will affect success rates as well. The system will calculate these success rates, and the rates will be displayed prior to beginning the infusion process.

Conclusion
This concludes my summary on the concepts and specs for materia craft. Information regarding the types of effects, stats, and locations of materia will be posted on The Lodestone when ready. As evident, the specs of materia craft are complex, and there will be many types of materia with different stats and applicable locations created from each gear item. I hope that crafters will be able to take on difficult requests from their Linkshell members and other players to create gear that offers both good looks and good performance using materia craft.

Materia craft, just like the other crafter/gatherer specs, will continue to be expanded, so we would like to continue development of materia craft following patch 1.19 incorporating user feedback!
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#2 Sep 16 2011 at 6:02 PM Rating: Default
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Spirit bonding? I'm not sure how I feel about that, but in all honesty this system just seems like a complicated version of sharding, gemming and reforging. It will probably work well if they implement it properly.
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#3 Sep 16 2011 at 6:14 PM Rating: Decent
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The good:

Naoki_Yoshida wrote:
The system will calculate these success rates, and the rates will be displayed prior to beginning the infusion process.


The bad:

Naoki_Yoshida wrote:
In addition, not all tier IV "Vitality" materia will grant you +28 HP. In some cases, it may give you +24 HP, etc.


The obvious:

This is basically what Korean MMOs have been doing for all of eternity. Continue to enhance an item, enhancing it further than the norm means it's possible to break the item. Thus creating an item and money sink.



I think it will be a good thing, I'm happy to get anything related to crafting, and any sort of system that gets rid of equipment, as there's far too much in circulation.

That said, I am super glad the actual success rate will be displayed, this is good news. I'm a bit worried they didn't say anything about how specific the relationship between an item and the resulting materia is, other than axes won't result in mage materia (which is... good). The idea that I am going to have to probably break down thousands of pieces of armor in order to get the maximum bonus on a certain number of Tier IV items is a tiring thought already, but hopefully in this case, being a crafter will pay off!

Edited, Sep 16th 2011 5:14pm by RamseySylph
#4 Sep 16 2011 at 6:38 PM Rating: Good
I am going to love this.

EDIT: I am NOT going to love adding all this information into the wiki.

Edited, Sep 16th 2011 8:39pm by StateAlchemist
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#5 Sep 16 2011 at 8:34 PM Rating: Decent
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This system is a character optimizer's worst nightmare and a RMT firm's wet dream. People will be encouraged to spend billions upon billions of gil to get that maximum enhanced item. Not only do you need to acquire a huge amount of max tier materia with max stats within its tier, you'll also need to acquire tons of max level HQ gear to insert that materia into.

I'm 99% certain this system will eventually bite Yoshi in the **** just like the initial WoW honor system bit Blizzard in the rear. People will go to any lengths to acquire what is possible to acquire.


Edited, Sep 16th 2011 10:37pm by Omena
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#6 Sep 16 2011 at 11:02 PM Rating: Decent
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Omena wrote:
This system is a character optimizer's worst nightmare and a RMT firm's wet dream. People will be encouraged to spend billions upon billions of gil to get that maximum enhanced item. Not only do you need to acquire a huge amount of max tier materia with max stats within its tier, you'll also need to acquire tons of max level HQ gear to insert that materia into.

I'm 99% certain this system will eventually bite Yoshi in the **** just like the initial WoW honor system bit Blizzard in the rear. People will go to any lengths to acquire what is possible to acquire.


Edited, Sep 16th 2011 10:37pm by Omena


The only reason it's an RMT's wet dream is that it actually gives gil a use again, and gil in demand means more business for RMT. If the development team only made decisions that depreciated the value of gil, or did not impact it at all, we'd all suffer in the long run, and for what, just to thwart RMT?

It's true, RMT has to be taken into account, but making gil worthless is not an option for a game that wishes to have an economy that actually matters. If the economy matters, RMT will have more business, that's just an unavoidable fact.

The upside of this system is, gil actually gains value! This is great! Also, there's a continuous item sink, no longer will the value of an item simply plummet until 90% of the item is vendored, rise again, and then plummet. It's a way to get money trading hands, and a new way for money to change hand FROM crafters TO combat classes, which doesn't happen too frequently.

Korean MMOs have long had similar systems, and I don't think they are a bad thing. I will wait to see before I speak on the implementation, but I think this is definitely a good thing.
#7 Sep 16 2011 at 11:42 PM Rating: Decent
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Also consider that people will be 'sharding' their own gear after it's been worn. You have to take into account that many people who buy or craft gear that they wear will not be returning it to the market, at least, not in the form it once was.
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HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#8 Sep 17 2011 at 6:39 AM Rating: Good
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RamseySylph wrote:

The only reason it's an RMT's wet dream is that it actually gives gil a use again, and gil in demand means more business for RMT. If the development team only made decisions that depreciated the value of gil, or did not impact it at all, we'd all suffer in the long run, and for what, just to thwart RMT?

Gil has always had huge demand in FFXI and there was also a serious RMT problem in that game. What Yoshi proposes here completely dwarfs that. The game will be utterly dominated by gil buyers and guilds who manage to monopolize rare items.

Quote:

It's true, RMT has to be taken into account, but making gil worthless is not an option for a game that wishes to have an economy that actually matters. If the economy matters, RMT will have more business, that's just an unavoidable fact.

The upside of this system is, gil actually gains value! This is great! Also, there's a continuous item sink, no longer will the value of an item simply plummet until 90% of the item is vendored, rise again, and then plummet. It's a way to get money trading hands, and a new way for money to change hand FROM crafters TO combat classes, which doesn't happen too frequently.

First of all, people will only make a piece of gear as long as there is sufficient demand to keep it profitable. People will not be skill upping on completed gear, so the markets will not be flooded. Secondly, the materia system as well as people quitting the game will remove gear from circulation. As far as gil sinks go, this doesn't accomplish that either as the money simply moves from one player to another.

Quote:

Korean MMOs have long had similar systems, and I don't think they are a bad thing. I will wait to see before I speak on the implementation, but I think this is definitely a good thing.

They're awful. That's why they only exist in Korean MMOs where innovation is an unknown word and an endless stream of copypasta games is the norm.

Edited, Sep 17th 2011 8:40am by Omena
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#9 Sep 17 2011 at 8:06 AM Rating: Decent
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Omena wrote:
RamseySylph wrote:

The only reason it's an RMT's wet dream is that it actually gives gil a use again, and gil in demand means more business for RMT. If the development team only made decisions that depreciated the value of gil, or did not impact it at all, we'd all suffer in the long run, and for what, just to thwart RMT?

Gil has always had huge demand in FFXI and there was also a serious RMT problem in that game. What Yoshi proposes here completely dwarfs that. The game will be utterly dominated by gil buyers and guilds who manage to monopolize rare items.

Quote:

It's true, RMT has to be taken into account, but making gil worthless is not an option for a game that wishes to have an economy that actually matters. If the economy matters, RMT will have more business, that's just an unavoidable fact.

The upside of this system is, gil actually gains value! This is great! Also, there's a continuous item sink, no longer will the value of an item simply plummet until 90% of the item is vendored, rise again, and then plummet. It's a way to get money trading hands, and a new way for money to change hand FROM crafters TO combat classes, which doesn't happen too frequently.

First of all, people will only make a piece of gear as long as there is sufficient demand to keep it profitable. People will not be skill upping on completed gear, so the markets will not be flooded. Secondly, the materia system as well as people quitting the game will remove gear from circulation. As far as gil sinks go, this doesn't accomplish that either as the money simply moves from one player to another.

Quote:

Korean MMOs have long had similar systems, and I don't think they are a bad thing. I will wait to see before I speak on the implementation, but I think this is definitely a good thing.

They're awful. That's why they only exist in Korean MMOs where innovation is an unknown word and an endless stream of copypasta games is the norm.

Edited, Sep 17th 2011 8:40am by Omena


Not every Korean MMO is a copy-pasta failwhale, if you can't acknowledge this you have a narrow minded view, and that's your own shtick. They have done things for the genre, and it needs to be acknowledged that not all of them are terrible games, nor all of their systems terrible in their own right.

Also, if you think that the current system does not cause an overflow of gear, you are beyond help, so I seriously wonder why I am bothering to respond.

Certainly, if skilling up on finished items was the best way to go (which it very well may become, given the lack of intermediary parts starting... oh with this very same patch?) we'd be even more flooded with gear, but currently, the ONLY way for gear to leave the market is for someone to vendor it, and how often do you think that's going to happen? Not very often, until the price dips extremely low because the market is flooded.

If this materia system did not come along, the prices on finished gear would just slowly dip, forever, until the gear was completely worthless. This will keep the gear prices at least semi-stable. There's nothing wrong with gil being worthwhile, this is not FFXI, the same solutions do not always apply, nor should they. FFXI still exists, so if you'd rather play it, be my guest.
#10 Sep 17 2011 at 10:40 AM Rating: Decent
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This system will be great for the game's economy. Crafted gear will sell fast and assuming the enhanced gear is tradeable, there will be good things to buy with millions of gil.
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#11 Sep 17 2011 at 10:49 AM Rating: Decent
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It was my understanding that all materia enhanced gear will be bound, maybe I missed something. If it's not, that's going to create a humongous glut of crafted items, vs. a more reliable way of removing them from the system. Imagine trying to find a robe that has the materia stats you want, with our current wards system. I really wouldn't want to spend 2 hours searching through retainers for one item again.

After a couple minutes searching on Lodestone, it doesn't say anything about the item being R/EX, that could spell trouble in the long haul for purchasing...

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/277


Edited, Sep 17th 2011 9:59am by Dallie
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#12 Sep 17 2011 at 11:59 AM Rating: Good
Dallie wrote:
It was my understanding that all materia enhanced gear will be bound, maybe I missed something. If it's not, that's going to create a humongous glut of crafted items, vs. a more reliable way of removing them from the system. Imagine trying to find a robe that has the materia stats you want, with our current wards system. I really wouldn't want to spend 2 hours searching through retainers for one item again.

After a couple minutes searching on Lodestone, it doesn't say anything about the item being R/EX, that could spell trouble in the long haul for purchasing...

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/277


Edited, Sep 17th 2011 9:59am by Dallie


As a reminder they said that you can have someone attach the materia on to the gear FOR YOU. THis implies that the end result is trade-able. They could however prevent it from being listed in bazaars somehow I am sure. But who knows. Could be that you have to remove any Materia on an item to sell it in a bazaar. Maybe only trading will be allowed.

I have no idea. But yes this could cause some confusion.
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#13 Sep 17 2011 at 12:52 PM Rating: Decent
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StateAlchemist of Amestris wrote:
Dallie wrote:
It was my understanding that all materia enhanced gear will be bound, maybe I missed something. If it's not, that's going to create a humongous glut of crafted items, vs. a more reliable way of removing them from the system. Imagine trying to find a robe that has the materia stats you want, with our current wards system. I really wouldn't want to spend 2 hours searching through retainers for one item again.

After a couple minutes searching on Lodestone, it doesn't say anything about the item being R/EX, that could spell trouble in the long haul for purchasing...

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/277


Edited, Sep 17th 2011 9:59am by Dallie


As a reminder they said that you can have someone attach the materia on to the gear FOR YOU. THis implies that the end result is trade-able. They could however prevent it from being listed in bazaars somehow I am sure. But who knows. Could be that you have to remove any Materia on an item to sell it in a bazaar. Maybe only trading will be allowed.

I have no idea. But yes this could cause some confusion.


Trading only would certainly help, as that removes the item from circulation until someone's ready to remove current materia and bazaar it. Seems as if that method would provide a better balance than being able to sell the modified gear outright in the wards.
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#14 Sep 17 2011 at 2:20 PM Rating: Decent
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Dallie wrote:
StateAlchemist of Amestris wrote:
Dallie wrote:
It was my understanding that all materia enhanced gear will be bound, maybe I missed something. If it's not, that's going to create a humongous glut of crafted items, vs. a more reliable way of removing them from the system. Imagine trying to find a robe that has the materia stats you want, with our current wards system. I really wouldn't want to spend 2 hours searching through retainers for one item again.

After a couple minutes searching on Lodestone, it doesn't say anything about the item being R/EX, that could spell trouble in the long haul for purchasing...

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/277


Edited, Sep 17th 2011 9:59am by Dallie


As a reminder they said that you can have someone attach the materia on to the gear FOR YOU. THis implies that the end result is trade-able. They could however prevent it from being listed in bazaars somehow I am sure. But who knows. Could be that you have to remove any Materia on an item to sell it in a bazaar. Maybe only trading will be allowed.

I have no idea. But yes this could cause some confusion.


Trading only would certainly help, as that removes the item from circulation until someone's ready to remove current materia and bazaar it. Seems as if that method would provide a better balance than being able to sell the modified gear outright in the wards.


On the other hand, the ability to sell modified gear allows crafters who make large investments to sell those expensive items and reap the fruits of their labors.
#15 Sep 17 2011 at 2:27 PM Rating: Good
RamseySylph wrote:
On the other hand, the ability to sell modified gear allows crafters who make large investments to sell those expensive items and reap the fruits of their labors.


If you can trade an item, then you can sell an item. We were talking about not allowing them to be sold in bazaars, to alleviate any confusion in the Market Wards.
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#16 Sep 17 2011 at 3:38 PM Rating: Decent
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StateAlchemist of Amestris wrote:
RamseySylph wrote:
On the other hand, the ability to sell modified gear allows crafters who make large investments to sell those expensive items and reap the fruits of their labors.


If you can trade an item, then you can sell an item. We were talking about not allowing them to be sold in bazaars, to alleviate any confusion in the Market Wards.


Because I want increased shout traffic. I think the better solution is to simply improve the ward interface, to allow us to inspect the details of an item from the list of items. If I select iron cuirass, I should see the details HQ, materia etc whenever I highlight any individual iron cuirass in that list.
#17 Sep 17 2011 at 4:08 PM Rating: Good
RamseySylph wrote:
StateAlchemist of Amestris wrote:
RamseySylph wrote:
On the other hand, the ability to sell modified gear allows crafters who make large investments to sell those expensive items and reap the fruits of their labors.


If you can trade an item, then you can sell an item. We were talking about not allowing them to be sold in bazaars, to alleviate any confusion in the Market Wards.


Because I want increased shout traffic. I think the better solution is to simply improve the ward interface, to allow us to inspect the details of an item from the list of items. If I select iron cuirass, I should see the details HQ, materia etc whenever I highlight any individual iron cuirass in that list.


The only way to do that with any kind of efficiency, is to make a completely separate search counter for items with Materia modifications. And even then, if there are a lot of one item sold, you will only see the 20 cheapest items, meaning that the "good" ones you are looking for will remain hidden.

Besides, you can filter shout traffic. I do. On my one of my chat logs I have a tab that includes all traffic (shout/say/tell/ls/party/emotes) then one that only shows more personal traffic (party/ls/tell).

With 80 different materia and 4 tiers each that is 320 changes you can make to each item within 8 different categories. That doesnt even include items with mulitple materia attachments. It would be a complete nightmare to try and implement it into the market wards effectively.
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#18 Sep 17 2011 at 4:20 PM Rating: Decent
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I shouldn't have to filter shout traffic, there are some shouts I want to see. If I have to deal with incessant spamming of Breastplate of XXX 3x HP+28 Materia 2,500k DO you need it? Buy? /tell because that's the only way for crafters to sell their socketed gear, that's annoying.

StateAlchemist of Amestris wrote:
The only way to do that with any kind of efficiency, is to make a completely separate search counter for items with Materia modifications.


No?

The server is already looking at the actual item in the retainer's bazaar, as it has to know the type of item and the price. I'm suggesting they simply display the the info/tooltip for that individual item when you are hovering over the item with your cursor. (Regardless of HQ/NQ/Materia, etc.)

In addition to that, simply adding a marker next to the item on the ward, one to indicate HQ vs NQ and 1-3 small materia icons to indicate the number of slots, would allow you to see at a glance, then inspect all those with materiae, viewing the tooltips for the full info.

It's a lot less complex than having a special case scenario for materia socketed gear.

StateAlchemist of Amestris wrote:
And even then, if there are a lot of one item sold, you will only see the 20 cheapest items, meaning that the "good" ones you are looking for will remain hidden.


This could and should be changed. When you consider that the list is being pulled and generated, and not stored on the server, there's very little reason changing a few variables couldn't allow us to see more, and page through the results.

Edited, Sep 17th 2011 3:24pm by RamseySylph
#19 Sep 17 2011 at 4:53 PM Rating: Good
RamseySylph wrote:
I shouldn't have to filter shout traffic, there are some shouts I want to see. If I have to deal with incessant spamming of Breastplate of XXX 3x HP+28 Materia 2,500k DO you need it? Buy? /tell because that's the only way for crafters to sell their socketed gear, that's annoying.


That is what the filter is for. In spite of a fully functional Auction House and Party Search feature in FFXI this still occurred in Whitegate. Annoying or not it's a choice between dealing with it or filtering it. If you want to see certain shouts, your just going to have to put up with the other ones.

As far as your suggestions about implementing them into the Market Wards...I still say it is a bad idea. But I respect your opinion and it's not worth arguing about. For that matter we don't even know if the items modded with Materia will be Unique.
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#20 Sep 17 2011 at 5:03 PM Rating: Decent
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And so the conversation shifts to economy and the broken market wards are once again left exposed...

FFXI's auction house was functional, but not fully featured. There are many things they could add to the market wards to lighten the burden on the player for buying and selling goods. Some of these would require reworking how gear and HQ items are dealt with, but I think it would be worth addressing now before it becomes a pr.. well, too late for that I guess.
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#21 Sep 17 2011 at 5:15 PM Rating: Good
Come to think of it if they implemented a system in FFXIV allowing a crafter to make a Materia based item and receive a reward (for success) without ever having to "obtain" the item (via trade), and upon completion the item would be returned to the original owner, then they could be completely unsellable/untradeable and it wouldn't be an issue at all. Then in order to sell any modded items, materia would have to be removed.

Edited, Sep 17th 2011 7:16pm by StateAlchemist
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#22 Sep 17 2011 at 6:42 PM Rating: Decent
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3,962 posts
StateAlchemist of Amestris wrote:
RamseySylph wrote:
I shouldn't have to filter shout traffic, there are some shouts I want to see. If I have to deal with incessant spamming of Breastplate of XXX 3x HP+28 Materia 2,500k DO you need it? Buy? /tell because that's the only way for crafters to sell their socketed gear, that's annoying.


That is what the filter is for. In spite of a fully functional Auction House and Party Search feature in FFXI this still occurred in Whitegate. Annoying or not it's a choice between dealing with it or filtering it. If you want to see certain shouts, your just going to have to put up with the other ones.

As far as your suggestions about implementing them into the Market Wards...I still say it is a bad idea. But I respect your opinion and it's not worth arguing about. For that matter we don't even know if the items modded with Materia will be Unique.


I'm almost positive, they said they will remain trade-able, but it's definitely possible that I'm wrong. Also, my contention is only directed to get to the root of the issue, I enjoy understanding why players feel the way they do about certain systems, I respect your opinion.

StateAlchemist of Amestris wrote:
Come to think of it if they implemented a system in FFXIV allowing a crafter to make a Materia based item and receive a reward (for success) without ever having to "obtain" the item (via trade), and upon completion the item would be returned to the original owner, then they could be completely unsellable/untradeable and it wouldn't be an issue at all. Then in order to sell any modded items, materia would have to be removed.

Edited, Sep 17th 2011 7:16pm by StateAlchemist


This is exactly the opposite of what you should want, crafting the finest, most richly enhanced gear through HQ and materia sockets is exactly what you want to be able to do. It's how you will make the big bucks. And players will be more than willing to pay. This is a healthy system, that allows hardcore crafters who work hard to create the best quality items to reap the benefits over the more casual crafters. Nothing is wrong with being rewarded for putting in more time and effort. I'm not saying more casual crafters ought to be punished, and they won't. But you see my point.
#23 Sep 17 2011 at 7:47 PM Rating: Good
On the topic of Materia and Market Wards... I was reading a thread I had almost forgotten about on lodestone concerning the ability to put signatures on items (like in FFXI). This was a response from a Community Rep:

Bayohne, Community Rep wrote:
items currently place a huge load on the server, especially the Market server


If server load is preventing the simple implementation of signatures on items, then the Materia system would be the equivalent to total Armageddon.

Here's a link to the specific post so you can read it in context.
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/1993-dev1017-Letting-Crafters-add-Comments-or-Signatures-to-Their-Finished-Goods?p=138492&viewfull=1#post138492
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#24 Sep 17 2011 at 7:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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#25 Sep 17 2011 at 8:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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How can items place such a huge strain on servers that they can't allow signatures? They were able to do it with FFXI - and that was despite so-called "PS2 limitations." How they thought they could even run an MMO with such a disastrous combination of programming and hardware is beyond me... I just, I -

... is SE designing FFXIV for the PS1?

*head explodes*



Edited, Sep 17th 2011 10:10pm by KaneKitty
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#26 Sep 17 2011 at 8:29 PM Rating: Decent
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3,962 posts
StateAlchemist of Amestris wrote:
On the topic of Materia and Market Wards... I was reading a thread I had almost forgotten about on lodestone concerning the ability to put signatures on items (like in FFXI). This was a response from a Community Rep:

Bayohne, Community Rep wrote:
items currently place a huge load on the server, especially the Market server


If server load is preventing the simple implementation of signatures on items, then the Materia system would be the equivalent to total Armageddon.

Here's a link to the specific post so you can read it in context.
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/1993-dev1017-Letting-Crafters-add-Comments-or-Signatures-to-Their-Finished-Goods?p=138492&viewfull=1#post138492


Honestly, their incompetence with server load is a little disheartening... anyways...

(This post ended up getting unnecessarily long, so apologies. Hopefully, the first two paragraphs and the end more than make my point clear.)

Let me be clear, the reason that a signature would be a huge load on the server is they would need to be able to store a dynamic number of strings, one totally unique string for every item signed. This has less to do with the market wards (in fact it really has nothing to do with the market wards) and everything to do with storing an extra string per every item.

On the other hand, the server is already going to have to store a enum or whatever solution they have for determining whether an item has a materia slotted into it or not, and what the ID of that materia is. Having the market ward entry display that data to the end user, when it's already pulling up the item's entry on the server would be more than feasible, and not create any additional "load" on the server.

Hopefully you already got it, but I'll explain it a little more clearly, if you already understand, feel free to skip the next three paragraphs.

Currently every item you own exists on the server, as an entry in a database of some kind. This database stores the most limited amount of data on those items possible, information like the item ID# so it knows what type of item, and an INT that represents the number you own. For gear, it would hold data like durability, whether it's HQ or NQ (depending on if they treat HQ and NQ items as separate IDs.) They also store bazaar information, like how much that item is selling for if it's up for bazaar, or there is a separate database entry for a player or retainer's bazaar list, that references that item.

In the coming patch, they will now have to hold data regarding materia on any item socketed. Most likely an array of up to 3 enums, so that the piece of gear in your inventory know's it's socketed with such and such a materia, or two, or three. This integer value representing each materia and it's various permutations adds a tiny amount of additional space each item is going to take up on the database.

On the topic of a signature, that signature would be unique, for every single item in the database. Instead of storing a tiny integer, they'd have to store a string, of how ever many maximum characters, one that supports Japanese and English text ideally. A much larger amount of data, dramatically increasing the amount of space they would need to alot for every item on the server.

My point:

So my point is comparing providing the information about an item to a player via the wards UI, that already exists on the server... and allotting additional space for a string on every item entry in their database are two totally different concepts.

Tl;DR metaphor

If every item in the game was a storage unit, adding a signature to every item would be like telling some guy to make every storage unit 50% larger. Difficult because the storage facility only has a limited amount of space allotted, and increasing the size of every unit would mean there wouldn't be enough space.

In the same metaphor, adding the ability to see information about every item, like whether or not it's socketed/HQ and what it's socketed with, is like calling the guy who owns the storage unit and asking him what's inside of it. Currently, all that guy will tell us "The storage unit exists, and it's priced at 10,000 gil."

KaneKitty wrote:
How can items place such a huge strain on servers that they can't allow signatures? They were able to do it with FFXI - and that was despite so-called "PS2 limitations." How they thought they could even run an MMO with such a disastrous combination of programming and hardware is beyond me... I just, I -

... is SE designing FFXIV for the PS1?

*head explodes*



To clarify a little on this, they're not saying they can't allow players to sign an item with their name, what people are referring to is a topic that cropped up on the official forums about signing items with a unique "catch phrase."

The difference between the two is storing a player ID# INT and an entire sentence STRING, the latter is much larger, and although minuscule in size on it's own, multiply that times the number of items that exist on a server at any given time... You get the idea. Now in reality, they could simply force players to have one catch phrase, that can be stored per character at any given time, and items signed could just reference the player ID and then display the given catch phrase... But that creates strange and unique situations, like, after someone buys a weapon by you, if you change your catch phrase, it would impact legacy items. Basically, their item would suddenly have your new catch phrase on it.

Basically, they're saying that at the moment, they don't want to deal with the extra server load, because they probably don't have the budget to increase server space, until they can start turning a profit, and recouping some of their losses. I do believe, that player's signing items with their name is still on the table, a table far in the distant future most likely, but a table none-the-less.



Edited, Sep 17th 2011 7:36pm by RamseySylph

Edited, Sep 17th 2011 7:36pm by RamseySylph
#27 Sep 17 2011 at 8:30 PM Rating: Good
KaneKitty wrote:
How can items place such a huge strain on servers that they can't allow signatures? They were able to do it with FFXI - and that was despite so-called "PS2 limitations." How they thought they could even run an MMO with such a disastrous combination of programming and hardware is beyond me... I just, I -

... is SE designing FFXIV for the PS1?

*head explodes*



Edited, Sep 17th 2011 10:10pm by KaneKitty


It's because of the Market Wards. The auction house in FFXI didn't involve separate zones, NPC retainers, etc... the load on whatever server handles the Market Wards at this point in the game, even with our limited playerbase, is still WAY more then FFXI's auction house. This by itself, was my main reason for wanting an Auction House in FFXIV. The simple fact that when push comes to shove, there is less things that can go wrong, or impede future implementation of content.

It's like why libraries switched from card catalogs to electronic databases... card catalogs worked just fine how they were, but with the increase of library content the amount of space needed to contain the card catalog increased, and the time it took to find the reference card for the book you were looking for increased. Not to mention only so many people could search through the cards at one time. Whereas with an electronic database, everything fit on one PC and a few keystrokes led you exactly where you wanted to go. Because the search time decreased so much you could have only a few PCs and still handle a greater volume of people wanting to search for a book.

The market wards have a maximum capacity for retainers, as the playerbase increases they have to continuously increase that cap or figure out something else. Originally people were supposed to be able to 'buy' retainers cheaper then paying for extra characters. It was an alternative to help out people who only wanted mules. If I was able to have 8 retainers I would, and so would many others I am sure. Can ou imagine the Market Wards with 4 times the number of retainers that are there now?

Same goes for the actual item search feature. You can't view the information for each item through the feature itself, because there is just too much information to send. Until SE implements a zoneless, npc-less database with a simple interface extra features like seeing tooltips for the actual item that is sitting in any particular bazaar is out of the question, because they are not having to refer to each individual retainers inventory, they are just pulling basic information on an item and displaying it for the sub-category.
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#28 Sep 17 2011 at 8:45 PM Rating: Decent
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3,962 posts
StateAlchemist of Amestris wrote:
KaneKitty wrote:
How can items place such a huge strain on servers that they can't allow signatures? They were able to do it with FFXI - and that was despite so-called "PS2 limitations." How they thought they could even run an MMO with such a disastrous combination of programming and hardware is beyond me... I just, I -

... is SE designing FFXIV for the PS1?

*head explodes*



Edited, Sep 17th 2011 10:10pm by KaneKitty


It's because of the Market Wards. The auction house in FFXI didn't involve separate zones, NPC retainers, etc... the load on whatever server handles the Market Wards at this point in the game, even with our limited playerbase, is still WAY more then FFXI's auction house. This by itself, was my main reason for wanting an Auction House in FFXIV. The simple fact that when push comes to shove, there is less things that can go wrong, or impede future implementation of content.

It's like why libraries switched from card catalogs to electronic databases... card catalogs worked just fine how they were, but with the increase of library content the amount of space needed to contain the card catalog increased, and the time it took to find the reference card for the book you were looking for increased. Not to mention only so many people could search through the cards at one time. Whereas with an electronic database, everything fit on one PC and a few keystrokes led you exactly where you wanted to go. Because the search time decreased so much you could have only a few PCs and still handle a greater volume of people wanting to search for a book.

The market wards have a maximum capacity for retainers, as the playerbase increases they have to continuously increase that cap or figure out something else. Originally people were supposed to be able to 'buy' retainers cheaper then paying for extra characters. It was an alternative to help out people who only wanted mules. If I was able to have 8 retainers I would, and so would many others I am sure. Can ou imagine the Market Wards with 4 times the number of retainers that are there now?

Same goes for the actual item search feature. You can't view the information for each item through the feature itself, because there is just too much information to send. Until SE implements a zoneless, npc-less database with a simple interface extra features like seeing tooltips for the actual item that is sitting in any particular bazaar is out of the question, because they are not having to refer to each individual retainers inventory, they are just pulling basic information on an item and displaying it for the sub-category.


I edited my response to KaneKitty's comment after you posted, I realize, but to be clear, though you make a number of valid points about the downside of a market ward system over an auction system (many of which I agree with) the market ward structure directly has little impact on their ability to provide signatures, whether they merely be the player's name, or a catch phrase.

In fact, the opposite is probably true. In FFXI, adding an item to the auction house erased a signature, presumably so they could cut down the amount of information stored on the server(s) handling the auction house. Instead of handling an individual database entry for every item, (necessary if the item has potential unique information like a signature) they could just hold a number, the number of any given item currently in the auction system and an array of prices and player IDs for the auctioneers.

In the market ward system, because the item still exist's in the retainer's inventory when it's on their bazaar, the item still exists as an individual entry on the server, with all of it's unique information. The problems that wards run into, for instance, the fact that a zone can only hold so many unique characters without players and the server suffering a performance hit, or simply not being able to store any more, doesn't have anything to do with the actual items the retainers are holding. That information is stored elsewhere, so if there are 500 retainers in one area, with 0 items, and 500 with 100 items, the actual stress on the server, and the player's machine is exactly the same.
#29 Sep 17 2011 at 8:51 PM Rating: Good
RamseySylph wrote:
StateAlchemist of Amestris wrote:
KaneKitty wrote:
How can items place such a huge strain on servers that they can't allow signatures? They were able to do it with FFXI - and that was despite so-called "PS2 limitations." How they thought they could even run an MMO with such a disastrous combination of programming and hardware is beyond me... I just, I -

... is SE designing FFXIV for the PS1?

*head explodes*



Edited, Sep 17th 2011 10:10pm by KaneKitty


It's because of the Market Wards. The auction house in FFXI didn't involve separate zones, NPC retainers, etc... the load on whatever server handles the Market Wards at this point in the game, even with our limited playerbase, is still WAY more then FFXI's auction house. This by itself, was my main reason for wanting an Auction House in FFXIV. The simple fact that when push comes to shove, there is less things that can go wrong, or impede future implementation of content.

It's like why libraries switched from card catalogs to electronic databases... card catalogs worked just fine how they were, but with the increase of library content the amount of space needed to contain the card catalog increased, and the time it took to find the reference card for the book you were looking for increased. Not to mention only so many people could search through the cards at one time. Whereas with an electronic database, everything fit on one PC and a few keystrokes led you exactly where you wanted to go. Because the search time decreased so much you could have only a few PCs and still handle a greater volume of people wanting to search for a book.

The market wards have a maximum capacity for retainers, as the playerbase increases they have to continuously increase that cap or figure out something else. Originally people were supposed to be able to 'buy' retainers cheaper then paying for extra characters. It was an alternative to help out people who only wanted mules. If I was able to have 8 retainers I would, and so would many others I am sure. Can ou imagine the Market Wards with 4 times the number of retainers that are there now?

Same goes for the actual item search feature. You can't view the information for each item through the feature itself, because there is just too much information to send. Until SE implements a zoneless, npc-less database with a simple interface extra features like seeing tooltips for the actual item that is sitting in any particular bazaar is out of the question, because they are not having to refer to each individual retainers inventory, they are just pulling basic information on an item and displaying it for the sub-category.


I edited my response to KaneKitty's comment after you posted, I realize, but to be clear, though you make a number of valid points about the downside of a market ward system over an auction system (many of which I agree with) the market ward structure directly has little impact on their ability to provide signatures, whether they merely be the player's name, or a catch phrase.

In fact, the opposite is probably true. In FFXI, adding an item to the auction house erased a signature, presumably so they could cut down the amount of information stored on the server(s) handling the auction house. Instead of handling an individual database entry for every item, (necessary if the item has potential unique information like a signature) they could just hold a number, the number of any given item currently in the auction system and an array of prices and player IDs for the auctioneers.

In the market ward system, because the item still exist's in the retainer's inventory when it's on their bazaar, the item still exists as an individual entry on the server, with all of it's unique information. The problems that wards run into, for instance, the fact that a zone can only hold so many unique characters without players and the server suffering a performance hit, or simply not being able to store any more, doesn't have anything to do with the actual items the retainers are holding. That information is stored elsewhere, so if there are 500 retainers in one area, with 0 items, and 500 with 100 items, the actual stress on the server, and the player's machine is exactly the same.

Yeah but what I am saying is this: when you go into the market ward search you can see what an item is but not what exact items people have. To clarify, it references a stored tooltip for the nq version of an item. It only periodically checks the actual retainers for changes in bazaar contents. If they added signatures to items, they would probably want it to be possible to allow you to see specifically what each item each retainer has (so you can see if an item is nq/hq/has signature/etc...)

And based off of what you told me that WOULD affect stress on the server.

Edited, Sep 17th 2011 10:52pm by StateAlchemist
____________________________
Humankind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something of equal value must be lost.
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#30 Sep 17 2011 at 8:58 PM Rating: Decent
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3,962 posts
StateAlchemist of Amestris wrote:
RamseySylph wrote:
StateAlchemist of Amestris wrote:
KaneKitty wrote:
How can items place such a huge strain on servers that they can't allow signatures? They were able to do it with FFXI - and that was despite so-called "PS2 limitations." How they thought they could even run an MMO with such a disastrous combination of programming and hardware is beyond me... I just, I -

... is SE designing FFXIV for the PS1?

*head explodes*



Edited, Sep 17th 2011 10:10pm by KaneKitty


It's because of the Market Wards. The auction house in FFXI didn't involve separate zones, NPC retainers, etc... the load on whatever server handles the Market Wards at this point in the game, even with our limited playerbase, is still WAY more then FFXI's auction house. This by itself, was my main reason for wanting an Auction House in FFXIV. The simple fact that when push comes to shove, there is less things that can go wrong, or impede future implementation of content.

It's like why libraries switched from card catalogs to electronic databases... card catalogs worked just fine how they were, but with the increase of library content the amount of space needed to contain the card catalog increased, and the time it took to find the reference card for the book you were looking for increased. Not to mention only so many people could search through the cards at one time. Whereas with an electronic database, everything fit on one PC and a few keystrokes led you exactly where you wanted to go. Because the search time decreased so much you could have only a few PCs and still handle a greater volume of people wanting to search for a book.

The market wards have a maximum capacity for retainers, as the playerbase increases they have to continuously increase that cap or figure out something else. Originally people were supposed to be able to 'buy' retainers cheaper then paying for extra characters. It was an alternative to help out people who only wanted mules. If I was able to have 8 retainers I would, and so would many others I am sure. Can ou imagine the Market Wards with 4 times the number of retainers that are there now?

Same goes for the actual item search feature. You can't view the information for each item through the feature itself, because there is just too much information to send. Until SE implements a zoneless, npc-less database with a simple interface extra features like seeing tooltips for the actual item that is sitting in any particular bazaar is out of the question, because they are not having to refer to each individual retainers inventory, they are just pulling basic information on an item and displaying it for the sub-category.


I edited my response to KaneKitty's comment after you posted, I realize, but to be clear, though you make a number of valid points about the downside of a market ward system over an auction system (many of which I agree with) the market ward structure directly has little impact on their ability to provide signatures, whether they merely be the player's name, or a catch phrase.

In fact, the opposite is probably true. In FFXI, adding an item to the auction house erased a signature, presumably so they could cut down the amount of information stored on the server(s) handling the auction house. Instead of handling an individual database entry for every item, (necessary if the item has potential unique information like a signature) they could just hold a number, the number of any given item currently in the auction system and an array of prices and player IDs for the auctioneers.

In the market ward system, because the item still exist's in the retainer's inventory when it's on their bazaar, the item still exists as an individual entry on the server, with all of it's unique information. The problems that wards run into, for instance, the fact that a zone can only hold so many unique characters without players and the server suffering a performance hit, or simply not being able to store any more, doesn't have anything to do with the actual items the retainers are holding. That information is stored elsewhere, so if there are 500 retainers in one area, with 0 items, and 500 with 100 items, the actual stress on the server, and the player's machine is exactly the same.

Yeah but what I am saying is this: when you go into the market ward search you can see what an item is but not what exact items people have. To clarify, it references a stored tooltip for the nq version of an item. It only periodically checks the actual retainers for changes in bazaar contents. If they added signatures to items, they would probably want it to be possible to allow you to see specifically what each item each retainer has (so you can see if an item is nq/hq/has signature/etc...)

And based off of what you told me that WOULD affect stress on the server.

Edited, Sep 17th 2011 10:52pm by StateAlchemist


I am very aware of what it currently does.

You missed my point, so let me be clear, trust me I can understand why you missed my point, it was a giant rambling wall of text.

In order to get the specific information for an individual item (already stored on the server) via the market item search feature's UI, the item search feature would have to query the item in question (it already has the ID and is doing queries periodically, now it would just need to query whenever a player highlights, or perhaps presses a key when selecting an item) and return the information. Basically, it'd have to go through the same step the server goes through when you look into someone's bazaar, the bazaar queries the item in the database. While it does "affect" the sever, we're talking about a very small query, a type of query that already is taking place hundreds of times per minute on any given server. The amount of load on the server would be extremely insignificant.

On the other hand, adding an item signature is permanently expanding the actual storage space that needs to be allotted for any given item in the game.

Edited, Sep 17th 2011 7:59pm by RamseySylph
#31 Sep 17 2011 at 9:07 PM Rating: Good
@Ramsey (Had to kill the quote pyramid...)
How would increasing the space an item takes up affect a server more then the number of times the server has to check for an item? If items are properly indexed (to decrease search time) then the actual space needed for the item should be the insignificant portion, not the fact that instead of checking a stored tooltip to display information on an item for a sub-category, versus performing potentially hundreds of checks to display the individual items tooltip (showing nq/hq/materia/signature) within the sub-category as you scroll down throug hthe list of every particular item within the sub-category?

(I'm sorry if that didn't make sense, it did to me as I read it back, even if it did get a bit jumbley.)
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#32 Sep 17 2011 at 9:20 PM Rating: Decent
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3,962 posts
StateAlchemist of Amestris wrote:
@Ramsey (Had to kill the quote pyramid...)
How would increasing the space an item takes up affect a server more then the number of times the server has to check for an item? If items are properly indexed (to decrease search time) then the actual space needed for the item should be the insignificant portion, not the fact that instead of checking a stored tooltip to display information on an item for a sub-category, versus performing potentially hundreds of checks to display the individual items tooltip (showing nq/hq/materia/signature) within the sub-category as you scroll down throug hthe list of every particular item within the sub-category?

(I'm sorry if that didn't make sense, it did to me as I read it back, even if it did get a bit jumbley.)


A query is just a message, millions of queries are being processed every minute. "Can I attack this enemy? Am I still running? I'm doing this much damage! You took this much damage! What items are in this bazaar? What's this item's durability? What skills do I have set?"

These messages are sent, exist for a moment, then are cleaned up (deleted) and the server or client responds accordingly based on the information in that message.

Adding the ability for the item search counter to query the individual item a retainer is holding is a simple message, it asks the database storing that retainer's items "Hey what are the details on that item you have?" and the database responds "Oh, let's see... It's HQ and has a Tier IV Vitality materia with +24 hp." Your client displays that to you, and the message is gone, it's no longer on the sever.

The only way this could cause any serious stress on the server is if too many people were inspecting item data via the item search counter at once for the server to process all the queries, but this same problem would occur if too many people were doing anything that the server overloaded and dropped some of the messages it was trying to send.

Worst case scenario? An error message is printed, and you don't see the item details, and you can query again.



With the signature issue, we're not talking about indexing, we're talking about increasing the number of bytes that need to be allotted for every item in the game.

Basically... (All numbers fictional) if every item currently needs 10 bytes in the server database, holding a few ENUMs/INTs, and now you need for every item to be able to hold a string (that supports Japanese text as well), you've increased the size any item takes up on the server to at least 20 bytes. (most likely more, depending on how many characters are allowed per phrase) Seems like a minor thing, but you've now permanently doubled the amount of space every item takes up, multiply that by the number of items in existence on the server, and you get the idea.

Edited, Sep 17th 2011 8:21pm by RamseySylph
#33 Sep 17 2011 at 9:30 PM Rating: Good
Ahh. Well then I suppose it would probably be for the best if they didn't allow those types of items to be sellable through the MW then huh? If I am understanding you correctly, then wouldn't having a much larger playerbase pretty much kill the current system they have, even without the addition of signatures and materia?
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#34 Sep 17 2011 at 9:44 PM Rating: Decent
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StateAlchemist of Amestris wrote:
Ahh. Well then I suppose it would probably be for the best if they didn't allow those types of items to be sellable through the MW then huh? If I am understanding you correctly, then wouldn't having a much larger playerbase pretty much kill the current system they have, even without the addition of signatures and materia?


A larger playerbase would mean they'd have to store more items in their database, and that the'd be handling more traffic yeah. This is why a larger playerbase would mean they would need to add additional servers. It's really a triage that's constantly happening, they need to plan for how many people will be playing.

When you wonder why they only allow a limited inventory space per player, it's because they need to not exceed the amount of server space they have allotted for items.

If they had 10,000 items worth of space allocated for items, and expected 100 players, that means every player could have 100 items. Increasing that value means they'd have to allocate more space for items on the server. If they're not putting a hard cap on the number of players on their server, more players joining could cause issues.

Now obviously these systems are not this rigid, the server is going to dynamically allocate space, so that it doesn't just break if an unexpected number of items are suddenly generated. (To an extent) But they need to be aware of the overall amount of space on a server, and how much these various aspects are affecting the server's storage.

At a certain point, they need to add more servers, or increase the amount of physical storage a given server has.

On the other hand, a rise in the number of queries is more easily equated to your computer's RAM, adding more players adds the potential for more queries per second, essentially. But the thing is, if a player is looking at an item in the ward, and thus a query is being sent, he's not out fighting. My point being that, those players will be generating queries on the server to access inventory, bazaars, enemies, etc, regardless of whether the feature I outlined were ever added.

Basically, the system would not cause any further server stress, it's just allowing for queries to be sent that examine an item's properties (already happening) just that those queries could be sent from the item counter, instead of having to physically move to the retainer. (Which does not put you any "Closer" to the data of those items, let there be no mistake about that.)

To be fair, adding a notification for HQ or materia status to display on the first level of the item search counter (in the list), or adding the ability to see more than 20 items, would mean a tiny size increase to the amount of space that would need to be allocated for the list of items on sale, which is stored on the server and updated periodically.

They could just switch to indexing all of the items, and not actually storing any data on them. This would mean slightly longer load times on displaying a list of items in the item search counter, but it would also mean that since you're only storing a pointer to that item in the list on the server, they could display as much information as they wanted about each of those items on the top level of that list, like HQ/socketed, etc. without increasing the amount of space taken up.

Regardless though, the bit about inspecting an item would not increase the amount of data being stored anywhere.


TL;DR

Increasing amount of data permanently stored on server: it's a problem if the storage space on the server is exceeded, that would be very bad. The only solution would be to delete data, or expand the server storage. (Physically buy more server towers.)

Increasing the potential for more/different queries to be sent on a server: it's only a problem if so many people are playing at one time, and all sending queries, and the server can't handle it. The worst case scenario is that your query is lost, and you get an error message, and have to try again. Possible server lag is created, or if there isn't a contingency in place, or it simply can't handle it, the server crashes and needs to be rebooted. (Very unlikely.)

Edited, Sep 17th 2011 8:48pm by RamseySylph
#35 Sep 17 2011 at 10:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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In response to the Signature dilemma posed by Ramsey, one solution that comes to mind would be a flyweight Dictionary with auxiliary numeric keys for item use. The storage overhead would still be large, but it would be extremely compact. You would build a Dictionary style tree out of Signatures (probably with a limited depth to reduce the overhead, we'll say 10 characters). Now granted, such a tree would have a worst case of 128^10 bytes if you give players access to the full UTF-8 characterspace, but if you reduce that to alphabetic (and Japanese) characterspaces, it would drop down to a much more reasonable worst case (not to mention that in order to hit the worst case, you would have to have hundreds of thousands of signatures like: flthvniwnt). Traversal cost would be worst case Log2(10), so lookup times would be reasonable brief. Edit: On second reading, I take this back, this would depend on your dictionary implementation, it could be as bad as Logw(10)*w. Where w is the characterspace size.

The trick here is to give each node an auxiliary numeric key, which follows logical order. If the insertion and deletion function preserve the integrity of the numeric key, items could be stored with a single extra byte sized field that can be used build the signature during the traversal of the Dictionary.

This solution has the advantage of overlapping similar Signatures. If there already exists a signature "AwesomeStu", adding the signature "AwesomStew" only costs an extra 8 bytes of storage on the server.

Edited, Sep 18th 2011 12:58am by Hulan
#36 Sep 17 2011 at 11:08 PM Rating: Decent
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Hulan wrote:
In response to the Signature dilemma posed by Ramsey, one solution that comes to mind would be a flyweight Dictionary with auxiliary numeric keys for item use. The storage overhead would still be large, but it would be extremely compact. You would build a Dictionary style tree out of Signatures (probably with a limited depth to reduce the overhead, we'll say 10 characters). Now granted, such a tree would have a worst case of 128^10 bytes if you give players access to the full UTF-8 characterspace, but if you reduce that to alphabetic (and Japanese) characterspaces, it would drop down to a much more reasonable worst case (not to mention that in order to hit the worst case, you would have to have hundreds of thousands of signatures like: flthvniwnt). Traversal cost would be worst case Log2(10), so lookup times would be reasonable brief.

The trick here is to give each node an auxiliary numeric key, which follows logical order. If the insertion and deletion function preserve the integrity of the numeric key, items could be stored with a single extra byte sized field that can be used build the signature during the traversal of the Dictionary.

This solution has the advantage of overlapping similar Signatures. If there already exists a signature "AwesomeStu", adding the signature "AwesomStew" only costs an extra 8 bytes of storage on the server.


There are definitely a lot of ways they could be more efficient about storing the data than simply storing a bunch of strings, my example was mostly just to illustrate the differences between adding more permanent data allocation per item, and adding a new way to query existing item data.
#37 Sep 17 2011 at 11:13 PM Rating: Good
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RamseySylph wrote:
There are definitely a lot of ways they could be more efficient about storing the data than simply storing a bunch of strings, my example was mostly just to illustrate the differences between adding more permanent data allocation per item, and adding a new way to query existing item data.

Yeah, sorry, I realized after posting that my comment was more than a little off topic. I'm afraid these types of problems grab me and wont let go until I've solved them (or at least come up with some sort of solution). I kind of just posted my thoughts out of habit. *cough* move along, nothing more to see here.
#38 Sep 17 2011 at 11:20 PM Rating: Decent
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Hulan wrote:
RamseySylph wrote:
There are definitely a lot of ways they could be more efficient about storing the data than simply storing a bunch of strings, my example was mostly just to illustrate the differences between adding more permanent data allocation per item, and adding a new way to query existing item data.

Yeah, sorry, I realized after posting that my comment was more than a little off topic. I'm afraid these types of problems grab me and wont let go until I've solved them (or at least come up with some sort of solution). I kind of just posted my thoughts out of habit. *cough* move along, nothing more to see here.


No worries, illustrating that there are a variety of ways for SE to reduce the impact these systems would have is certainly not totally off topic!

I'm a designer, not an engineer, so if anything I'm happy that the first technical person who came along didn't go out of their way to point out some minor (irrelevant) technical flaw in something I said.

Edited, Sep 17th 2011 10:29pm by RamseySylph
#39 Sep 18 2011 at 5:36 AM Rating: Decent
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This system is looking very promising. I can't wait for 1.19.
#40 Sep 18 2011 at 9:15 AM Rating: Excellent
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RamseySylph wrote:

Not every Korean MMO is a copy-pasta failwhale, if you can't acknowledge this you have a narrow minded view, and that's your own shtick. They have done things for the genre, and it needs to be acknowledged that not all of them are terrible games, nor all of their systems terrible in their own right.

I can't think of a single Korean MMO that is or has been on the market that isn't or wasn't extremely conservative in its design.

Quote:

Also, if you think that the current system does not cause an overflow of gear, you are beyond help, so I seriously wonder why I am bothering to respond.

Certainly, if skilling up on finished items was the best way to go (which it very well may become, given the lack of intermediary parts starting... oh with this very same patch?) we'd be even more flooded with gear, but currently, the ONLY way for gear to leave the market is for someone to vendor it, and how often do you think that's going to happen? Not very often, until the price dips extremely low because the market is flooded.

If this materia system did not come along, the prices on finished gear would just slowly dip, forever, until the gear was completely worthless. This will keep the gear prices at least semi-stable. There's nothing wrong with gil being worthwhile, this is not FFXI, the same solutions do not always apply, nor should they. FFXI still exists, so if you'd rather play it, be my guest.

You don't understand economics. The prices of things will drop to a certain point but they will not reach zero because crafters will stop making them once the price is low enough. The supply simply isn't there. Only certain items like wooden masks, which have high supply (because people skill up on them) and practically zero demand (because they suck and are ugly) are worthless.

You seem to think that people will just keep making gear, oblivious to the fact that they're selling it at a loss, forever. That's not how economies work unless you introduce central planning in the form of subsidiaries or other really horrible ideas.

Also, you seem to completely miss the part where gear turns into materia. That already renews demand in the economy and it wouldn't even be needed because people quitting the game and vendoring their stuff (because the wards are a god **** pain) already reduce the amount of gear in circulation. We don't need this forbidden materia crafting thing. It'll only serve to greatly widen the wealth gap and guess who comes out on top? That's right, those loyal RMT customers. Not to mention it'll cause a lot of anger and disappointment when people constantly lose their expensive **** when trying to beef it up.

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#41 Sep 18 2011 at 11:40 AM Rating: Decent
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Omena wrote:
You don't understand economics. The prices of things will drop to a certain point but they will not reach zero because crafters will stop making them once the price is low enough. Only certain items like wooden masks, which have high supply (because people skill up on them) and practically zero demand (because they suck and are ugly) are worthless.

The lack of demand for crafted gear is going to go out the window when this system is implemented for several reasons. The first and most obvious is that the only source of materia is from crafted gear. Even items that people skill up on will at least have some use now.

Omena wrote:
You seem to think that people will just keep making gear, oblivious to the fact that they're selling it at a loss, forever.

They won't have to sell it after materia craft is added...

Yoshi wrote:
Attaching materia to a brand-new piece of equipment has a 100% success rate.

If successful, a single weapon or piece of armor will be equipped with at least two materia, and the power of the materia will cumulate to strengthen the player’s abilities. However, if this process fails, both the gear and materia will be destroyed in the resulting explosion.

People attaching materia normally have 100% success. Pushing the limits is a calculated risk. The people who come out on top are those who have taken the time to level their crafts. If you have the ability to make high level gear, you have the ability to make high level materia. Even if you only had a few hours to play you could craft yourself an entire set of gear, wear it out into the field while doing your leves and then 'shard' it into materia.

Whether or not that translates into profit depends on if materia(or 'socketed' gear) will be able to be traded or sold. Personally I'm against it and it doesn't really make sense anyway...

Yoshi wrote:
However, your memories and bond are bottled up inside the weapons and armor that you have been using until now. Materia is just that! A crystallization of those memories and bonds.

If materia is able to be sold or traded, in essence what you are doing is selling your memories. Why should your gear be more powerful based on my bond and memories with my own gear?

Edited, Sep 18th 2011 1:41pm by FilthMcNasty
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Rinsui wrote:
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HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#42 Sep 18 2011 at 11:58 AM Rating: Decent
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Omena wrote:
RamseySylph wrote:

Not every Korean MMO is a copy-pasta failwhale, if you can't acknowledge this you have a narrow minded view, and that's your own shtick. They have done things for the genre, and it needs to be acknowledged that not all of them are terrible games, nor all of their systems terrible in their own right.

I can't think of a single Korean MMO that is or has been on the market that isn't or wasn't extremely conservative in its design.



As far as games already in the US, Dragon's Nest comes to mind. Tera as far as games out in Korea and coming to the US (eventually) and Blade & Soul as far as games that are still under pre-launch development. Also, we're talking about an old system, and many older Korean MMOs made leaps forward, and established various systems that have become commonplace in the genre, it's really only a minor point though, and since you seem to have a hatred for all things Korean MMO, that's spilled over from personal preference into "They've never done anything for the genre" arguing with you is a moot point.

On the topic of the economy though, accusing me of not understanding economics because I don't feel that SE should not develop a system to avoid the potential for RMT profit is dumb at best.

I understand perfectly well, and I do also understand that players will stop making a piece of gear if they can't make a profit off if it. (Though not really because people will still try for HQs... and they'll have lots of NQs left over) That's my point, a finished piece of gear should never result in a negative profit. Maybe a marginal one at best, breaking even at worst. This system works to guarantee that, or at least make it more likely.

Forbidden materia craft wasn't even what I was talking about, but if that's all you have a problem with... I really don't think you're thinking it through, it's a calculated risk, and players can profit off of it, just as much as RMT can.
#43 Sep 18 2011 at 12:49 PM Rating: Decent
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RamseySylph wrote:
Forbidden materia craft wasn't even what I was talking about, but if that's all you have a problem with... I really don't think you're thinking it through, it's a calculated risk, and players can profit off of it, just as much as RMT can.

We don't know that yet. If anything, it's more likely that materia won't be sold.
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#44 Sep 18 2011 at 1:06 PM Rating: Good
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They've confirmed times and times again that solidified materia can be sold and traded.

If a product with materia attached can be sold remains to be confirmed, but I'm 99% sure it will (because if you're not a crafter, and you want materia that you bought attached to gear that you bought, then you have to give the items to a crafter for him to combine them, and then he has to give it back to you -- ergo, tradeable. Unless they make a system like repairs, where a guy can link a weapon and materia in his bazaar and anyone can walk up to him and combine the stuff for him ---- but do we REALLY want a system like that? I can't believe the implementation nightmare for doing so.)
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#45 Sep 18 2011 at 1:23 PM Rating: Good
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Docent42 wrote:
They've confirmed times and times again that solidified materia can be sold and traded.

I didn't see that in the OP so wasn't sure about it. That's disappointing and doesn't make any sense.








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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#46 Sep 18 2011 at 2:07 PM Rating: Decent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Docent42 wrote:
They've confirmed times and times again that solidified materia can be sold and traded.

I didn't see that in the OP so wasn't sure about it. That's disappointing and doesn't make any sense.


Really? It doesn't make sense that you could hand a gemstone to someone else?

I think you're over-thinking the whole "memories" thing. In another thread where they talked about materia, they basically said it's the crystallized essence, the aetherial energy of the finished product, that's turned into that gemstone over use. In that way it's almost got a shinto overtone, in the idea that everything, even inanimate objects has some sort of "soul."

Anyway, I don't see any literature on the subject to suggest that there would be some conflict with someone using a materia another person created. For combat classes, you're able to essentially sell the hard work you put into a piece of gear. It makes sense, in a lot of ways, you have a choice, keep it or sell it. I'm glad that XIV is not going the route of making almost everything bound, as many recent MMOs have.








#47 Sep 18 2011 at 4:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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StateAlchemist of Amestris wrote:
The market wards have a maximum capacity for retainers, as the playerbase increases they have to continuously increase that cap or figure out something else. Originally people were supposed to be able to 'buy' retainers cheaper then paying for extra characters. It was an alternative to help out people who only wanted mules. If I was able to have 8 retainers I would, and so would many others I am sure. Can ou imagine the Market Wards with 4 times the number of retainers that are there now?


Heck, if this game ever becomes even mildly successful they should be hoping for ~500k players. If the wards have trouble supporting the retainers of a few dozen thousand, how does SE even think they'll function with around a million...? >_>

Server stability aside, wading through that many NPCs simply to find an item is just silly.
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#48 Sep 18 2011 at 6:41 PM Rating: Decent
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RamseySylph wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Docent42 wrote:
They've confirmed times and times again that solidified materia can be sold and traded.

I didn't see that in the OP so wasn't sure about it. That's disappointing and doesn't make any sense.


Really? It doesn't make sense that you could hand a gemstone to someone else?

I'm not over-thinking it, but it just doesn't sound right to me. I know it's a materialized essence, but that essence is your own personal experiences. I know we don't have all the details, but just as a hypothetical; What if there were rare versions that only materialized after defeating some impossible to gauge NM? Doesn't seem right that someone else experiences go into making your own gear more powerful.

Guess you'll have to wait and see, but I just don't like the way it sounds so far. Not to mention the difficulties that come along with selling it.
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#49 Sep 18 2011 at 7:42 PM Rating: Good
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RamseySylph wrote:

As far as games already in the US, Dragon's Nest comes to mind. Tera as far as games out in Korea and coming to the US (eventually) and Blade & Soul as far as games that are still under pre-launch development. Also, we're talking about an old system, and many older Korean MMOs made leaps forward, and established various systems that have become commonplace in the genre, it's really only a minor point though, and since you seem to have a hatred for all things Korean MMO, that's spilled over from personal preference into "They've never done anything for the genre" arguing with you is a moot point.

I give credit when credit is due and the action MMORPG is definitely a genre where Korea seems to be way ahead of everyone else. I'm also really looking forward to both Tera and B&S. However, Korea has a long history of low budget copypasta MMOs (many of which I've played). Ragnarok Online, Legend of Mir, Silkroad Online, Flyff, etc, etc. The list goes on and on. The new wave of action MMOs is a new phenomenon and could eventually stagnate much like the Korean MMOs of old.

Quote:

On the topic of the economy though, accusing me of not understanding economics because I don't feel that SE should not develop a system to avoid the potential for RMT profit is dumb at best.

They definitely should not develop an RMT friendly system if there is a player friendly alternative. FFXIV is full of systems trying to prevent different forms of "abuse": One claim at a time to prevent AoE farming, ranged attacks on all mobs to prevent kiting, poor channels for trade to hurt RMT and so on. What's common to all of these is the fact that they all have highly annoying side-effects that hurt everyone. Forbidden materia crafting not only makes RMTs jump of excitement, it's also highly unnecessary.

Quote:

I understand perfectly well, and I do also understand that players will stop making a piece of gear if they can't make a profit off if it. (Though not really because people will still try for HQs... and they'll have lots of NQs left over) That's my point, a finished piece of gear should never result in a negative profit. Maybe a marginal one at best, breaking even at worst. This system works to guarantee that, or at least make it more likely.

HQ is guaranteed with HQ mats. There will be no excess NQs from people making HQs.

Quote:

Forbidden materia craft wasn't even what I was talking about, but if that's all you have a problem with... I really don't think you're thinking it through, it's a calculated risk, and players can profit off of it, just as much as RMT can.

It's all I have a problem with, yes. And it's not a calculated risk, it's what everyone will have to do to keep up. Only you'll achieve it through incredible fiscal strain by buying endless amounts of whatever item you're trying to make. We'll start with two HQ Super Swords with one materia, then try to make one with two. When we succeed with that, we'll try to make another one with two, and if successful, we'll try to upgrade one to three and so on. In order to finally get that HQ Super Sword with five materia, we may have had to go through dozens of HQ Super Swords and hundreds of max tier materia. This is not fun. This is a massive gil grind never before seen outside cheap Korean MMOs and RMT will be the key to achieving our goals.

Edited, Sep 18th 2011 9:45pm by Omena
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#50 Sep 18 2011 at 10:14 PM Rating: Decent
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Omena wrote:
It's all I have a problem with, yes. And it's not a calculated risk, it's what everyone will have to do to keep up.

Without having the system in place it's impossible to tell. Also, they're adjusting stats as well but even if they kept stats the same, having a sword with +50 STR over a +40 version isn't game breaking. No one is going to be turned away from groups for it. There simply aren't enough people interested to support those with an elitist attitude to that degree.

Oh and it is a calculated risk. One SE is even going as far as telling the crafter up front...

Yoshi wrote:
The system will calculate these success rates, and the rates will be displayed prior to beginning the infusion process.


The only thing RMT is key in is encouraging laziness. It is possible with enough effort to be completely self-sufficient in the process of materializing your gear.
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#51 Sep 19 2011 at 12:32 AM Rating: Decent
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Filthy already made all of my points but I'll regurgitate them, because it was really the only thing worth responding to in your post...

Omena wrote:
And it's not a calculated risk, it's what everyone will have to do to keep up.


First of all, it IS a calculated risk, it TELLS you the % chance of working. Hence CALCULATED.

Whether or not we have to do it NOT relevant to whether it's calculated or not.

Also, they explicitly stated content will be balanced around non-socketed or single-socketed gear. It's not something you must do to keep up. The different is a marginal increase in performance.

Edited, Sep 18th 2011 11:33pm by RamseySylph
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