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#1 Oct 09 2011 at 6:37 AM Rating: Good
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When 1.19 hit, my LS soon discovered the joys of powerleveling. One of us would throw on a LV 50 class, stand in the middle of the skeletton room in Muntuy, and AOE the whole cellar to death for an hour. Then the next one would take over, while the rest of us was AFK (and producing materia).

Somehow I feel like a cheater; but then again, nobody wants to join a "normal" PT nowadays anyway, so I have no choice...

#2 Oct 09 2011 at 7:08 AM Rating: Decent
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you know, complaining about thing (especially thing you also "reluctantly" doing) will only make it worse
just ignore it
if they want all class to 50 "the easy way", its their problem. but please don't come to us crying if batraal wipe that half *** party

remember, this is a game.
for some people, game need to be fun (thus they "cheat")
for some others, game need to be taken seriously (cause its "serious business")

either play for fun, or play to achieve something
(I play to achieve something btw, but I don't detest those who play for fun)
#3 Oct 09 2011 at 7:13 AM Rating: Decent
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ff14 is trying to overthrow WoW/Guild wars 2 as the most casual(ie 0 content) MMO ever.

Hope they realize people don't actually want to pay 15$ when they already have 500 materias and all classes R50 after 1 week.

Edited, Oct 9th 2011 9:13am by FluttershyPony
#4 Oct 09 2011 at 7:18 AM Rating: Decent
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^you're being pesimistic
don't be
there always hope
#5 Oct 09 2011 at 7:30 AM Rating: Excellent
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Wow so sounds like they already fast-forwarded this game to "abyssea stage" (blowing past the entire leveling range, making regular leveling obsolete and extinct). Meaning they will only focus on top end content ever.... Why don't they just make new character in both games have full levels from the start, if they're so happy to ignore/bypass the entire adventure of leveling up.

Edited, Oct 9th 2011 9:31am by RattyBatty
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#6 Oct 09 2011 at 7:37 AM Rating: Decent
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like I said, either play for fun or play to achieve something
#7 Oct 09 2011 at 8:56 AM Rating: Excellent
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rinstar wrote:
you know, complaining about thing (especially thing you also "reluctantly" doing) will only make it worse
just ignore it
if they want all class to 50 "the easy way", its their problem. but please don't come to us crying if batraal wipe that half *** party

remember, this is a game.
for some people, game need to be fun (thus they "cheat")
for some others, game need to be taken seriously (cause its "serious business")

either play for fun, or play to achieve something
(I play to achieve something btw, but I don't detest those who play for fun)


This is fantastic advice but it's ultimately misguided for MMOs. If there's an easier path, people will take it, and the more people that take it, the smaller the pool gets for people who want to engage in group-based encounters the traditional way.

Not all of us have r50 linkshells or strong groups of friends willing to do this, but all it takes is one person to turn down a party invite to set in motion of chain of frustration at cobbling together a group for exp grinding in order to turn the majority opinion in the game toward that of the easy path.

I'm beginning to feel the powerleveling needs to be addressed, else the group-up mentality for exp grinds will be lost before it ever had a chance to pick up.

It's the journey to max-level that keeps me engrossed in games. If FFXIV turns into a MMO where the game doesn't begin until max-level, and players are encouraged to do whatever it takes to get there ASAP, I'm afraid this won't be the game for me.
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#8 Oct 09 2011 at 9:02 AM Rating: Excellent
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rinstar wrote:
like I said, either play for fun or play to achieve something


Playing to achieve something IS what makes MMOs fun for me. This current power-level system is quickly making those achievements feel worthless.
#9 Oct 09 2011 at 9:22 AM Rating: Decent
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FYI, this is my first MMO, so my opinion earlier might sounds too off line-ish.
so:
- You have a valid point, and I also believe that there should be a "civil" discussion about this matter.
- Yet I feel that there still bunch of people who will keep this conventional way of leveling: those people who stay online for months before 1.19. If I might say, power leveler people tend to be new player.
- And my main concern is that we need a consistency. How many time that the exp/sp gain scheme change? From raptor grind party, to leve link, then back to raptor grind party, then back to leve sp bonus (which last quite prematurely), and now this power level thing. I believe, game mechanic wise, that this kinda scheme is an avoidable. Look the Amaalja stronghold, 3rd room. We need more than one party to attack the same group to be able to survive, thus we need the claim system, thus the sharing exp, thus the power level. But do correct me on this if I'm wrong

edit
Vawn43 wrote:
Playing to achieve something IS what makes MMOs fun for me. This current power-level system is quickly making those achievements feel worthless.

"Fun" definition is always different between people. I might tend to use "fun" as "casual" context here

Edited, Oct 9th 2011 11:27am by rinstar
#10 Oct 09 2011 at 9:26 AM Rating: Good
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Shouldn't it be all about what you want to do to get enjoyment out of the game OP? I can understand some of the points your making, but you don't have to participate if its something that's detracting from your personal experience with the game. That decision though may make you fall "behind" in a sense with those you have grown accustomed to, but think of it as an opportunity to make yourself a more skilled player by working with the system the way it was intended. Skills that I'm sure will prove most useful when you reach level 50 or when you embark on leveling jobs after patch 1.20.

I am enjoying a lot of what patch 1.19 has brought to the table and even though my highest class is 32 I plan on enjoying the journey to 50 with friends at my own pace. For myself rushing to 50 is not satisfying if I'm left asking myself at the end "What can I do now?" The game is slowly evolving and each patch brings about changes that have the potential to impact all players regardless of level or class.

Just play and have fun ^^

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#11 Oct 09 2011 at 9:29 AM Rating: Decent
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^Exactly my point
#12 Oct 09 2011 at 10:17 AM Rating: Excellent
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Thanks for making the most broken powerleveling system I've ever seen in an MMO, Yoshida. I'm so glad you're strongly pro-powerlevel; it really makes for engaging battles and, with materia now, a more balanced economy. *sigh* (-_- )
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#13 Oct 09 2011 at 10:48 AM Rating: Good
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Yes, power-leveling is insanely overpowered and broken. However, you don't HAVE to powerlevel. I had an absolute blast taking my pug from 22-25 just partying, doing leves, and doing the quests for getting a chocobo. It took a decent amount of time and I felt a sense of accomplishment when I finally dinged 25. I really don't care if someone else just got powerleveled up that high in a couple hours. If that's how they want to play, good for them. I've enjoyed a bit of powerleveling myself and can say I would have rather done that then tried to painfully grind out some of the low levels right now. That's the real issue for me. If the lower levels WEREN'T so painfully slow and awful, I wouldn't have powerleveled. So really, fix the grind at low levels and I could care less about powerleveling. It doesn't affect me in the slightest.
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#14 Oct 09 2011 at 11:22 AM Rating: Decent
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KaneKitty wrote:
Thanks for making the most broken powerleveling system I've ever seen in an MMO, Yoshida. I'm so glad you're strongly pro-powerlevel; it really makes for engaging battles and, with materia now, a more balanced economy. *sigh* (-_- )


As much as we all would love a perfect balance of everything in FFXIV the reality is it is not going to happen. If players choose to level up fast using what 1.19 has brought forward that is their choice. Will it make them better players at the end? More than likely no when compared to players that chose to level up without power leveling. I'm sure that gap in skill will prove useful to discern players capable of future battle-based content that requires knowledge developed through normal battles.

Materia was going to have a major impact on the economy. All of a sudden you have a large base of players that have inadequate gear and want to be more efficient. That demand drives prices up and if players are willing to pay those prices attributes to prices staying high until materia and gear are more readily available. Resulting in prices falling and stabilizing due to lack of demand.

I believe your statement is more so out of frustration and when things settle down I'm sure revisiting your statement might make you look at things from a different perspective. While it may seem nice to keep up with the "Jones" so to speak and jump on the current bandwagon its not the only choice available. A game in this state that is prone to changes oftentimes the best approach is not to rush through content, but go at your own pace as adjustments and tweaks are sure to follow any new system once its introduced. Things will get better once things have calmed down just don't look to Yoshida to solve all the game's problems. At the end of the day its the mentality of the players that bring about some of the frustrations other players experience in-game.
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#15 Oct 09 2011 at 12:27 PM Rating: Good
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Blkmgflare wrote:
don't look to Yoshida to solve all the game's problems. At the end of the day its the mentality of the players that bring about some of the frustrations other players experience in-game.


But... Yoshida went out of his way to make sure broken powerleveling could exist; he even posted about how he wants powerleveling to be a part of the game. It's not the players' faults that devs purposely make decisions that cast every other means to level in a comparatively worthless light.

Yes, it's technically other players who are doing the activities; yes, it's players' drive toward efficiency that motivates them to level in the fastest ways possible; but it's the devs who decide to make these systems available, and the devs who set the rules.

A bad gameplay environment is caused by a bad system. A bad system is a system with a bad design. A system with a bad design is the fault of those who developed it. It's not like they didn't knowingly make powerleveling the most appealing option, both for leveling and for materia, after all.
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#16 Oct 09 2011 at 12:32 PM Rating: Decent
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If FFXI is any indication it will be widly loved (even embraced by hardcores after a while and will become the norm), eventually there will be shouts offering spots to leech for gil and it will be seen as a legit method of leveling new jobs and indeed making gil.

Square learned that people love leeching XP, they learned it from SMN burns and later abyssea (where they fully embraced it as part of the game) so it makes sense they would put it here too.

For the people that said they left FFXI due to abyssea it might be a slap in the face, but they are gonna have to get used to it I guess.

Edited, Oct 9th 2011 2:37pm by Runespider
#17 Oct 09 2011 at 1:22 PM Rating: Excellent
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The enjoyment and long-term health of an MMO depends on a crucial balance of reward versus investment. FFXIV, after a year, still has only one major in-game goal, and that is leveling. It is now possible to do that casually and effectively while AFK.

When the only meaningful in-game goal can be achieved by people while they have a nap, a game will not maintain its appeal.
#18 Oct 09 2011 at 1:29 PM Rating: Good
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I do not see what is so hard about making sure that a lvl 1, 20 or even 40 cannot simply gain more than 10 points from any battle a level 50 is fighting for them. And sure people will find other ways to powerlevel each other, but that doesn't mean that you have to accommodate this.

I am also surprised how the FF MMO community has changed. Back in 2004 most people wanted to rip the head off people who leeched their way to 75. It wasn't only "not fair", but it also created a bunch of bad players. Nowadays I see a lot of "fun for everyone!!!" replies that would have been put to sub-default back then.

While writing this, I realized that by the time I quit fFXI, the entire battle strategy had changed as well. Zerg was the new way to go and lvl sync made sure one could move from easy to easy opponents and avoiding the nasty ones on the road to 75) so you didn't even need to have a decent knowledge of most jobs anymore.

The "bad players" argument is hardly an argument anymore. However, call me a killjoy to others, but I still prefer the initial concept of FFXI, namely the idea that achievements are the result of hard work. and what we have now is a game that any idiot can buy and in where he can get to 50 in..days... and can say "Yeah...well...I played FFXIV and it was easy and boringggg!!", and that while the game can be so much more challenging and create so many fun memories (and frustrations that at a later stage make you smile) that make you want to relive the "good old days".

And now...after a couple of months if not weeks people will go: "More endgame stuff or I'll leave!! You hear me, SE?? ToR is coming out, and later on we have Tera, so I really quit SE, I really do!!" and forget about FFXIV once more.

I do not think this setup is a smart move.
#19 Oct 09 2011 at 2:28 PM Rating: Good
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Considering I'm still scratching my head about what to do after I'm done with the leve quests and have a 36 hours cooldown and the fact I have only touched the game for a few days over the last year, I wonder if I should even bother with party mechanics before end game.
#20 Oct 09 2011 at 3:19 PM Rating: Good
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^ party mechanics? there are none... If you don't have LS mates, it is very difficult to set up a pt. You'll have to shout to get ppl to join you.
#21 Oct 09 2011 at 3:36 PM Rating: Good
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36 hour cooldown? since 1.19 they changed it to 4 every 12 hours and you can stack up to 99 allowances to redo leves over and over if you want. of course, I haven't touched leves since the update since parties are much more fun now and materia has added an interesting time/gil sink. my suggestion on things to do, look for spots to grind materia, try to set up a party (or get into an active ls to party with), gather for catalysts (these are a pain in the **** and i'm sure can be sold for large amounts of gil), do leves if you have a lot saved up, farm the low rank dungeon, explore the new r15 dungeon/area (haven't done that yet, not sure what's there), do company quests/ifrit battle, caravan escorts ... well you get the picture, there are things to do in game.

imo this patch really fixed party play, now they need to fix the party search functions so that people can make parties easier. which, i believe, yoshi said they are addressing this soon and are looking at ffxi's system for a reference.

Edited, Oct 9th 2011 4:36pm by UnicornBonesaw
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#22 Oct 10 2011 at 9:45 AM Rating: Good
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If I'm playing Battletoads on my NES, I can ignore that many other kids use a Game Genie to cheat their way through it. That doesn't really affect my experience.

In an MMO, the power levelers aren't in different sandboxes, they're in my world. They're running linkshells, they're buying from the AH, they're selling from the AH. Sure, I could belong to a white hat linkshell and feel morally superior, but the game isn't just about your personal linkshell, it's about the entire environment of your server.

Powerleveling doesn't start because players are "bad." There will be super competitive players who want their character or linkshell to hit endgame content the first and be rated the highest, and will use the fastest, most efficient means to get there. Once a number of these players do this, other players who want to "keep up" with their servers content progression will feel compelled to do the same, and soon players who just want to be able to participate in the market economy will feel compelled to do the same.

It's a ridiculous game mechanic and I'm shocked that the thousands of people who screamed that jumping or threat icons would break their immersion have no problem with characters becoming epic warriors simply by sitting and watching their friends play.
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#23 Oct 10 2011 at 1:23 PM Rating: Decent
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Rinsui wrote:
When 1.19 hit, my LS soon discovered the joys of powerleveling. One of us would throw on a LV 50 class, stand in the middle of the skeletton room in Muntuy, and AOE the whole cellar to death for an hour. Then the next one would take over, while the rest of us was AFK (and producing materia).

Somehow I feel like a cheater; but then again, nobody wants to join a "normal" PT nowadays anyway, so I have no choice...
Isn't powerleveling approved by the dev team?

yfaithfully wrote:
they're buying from the AH, they're selling from the AH
Man, if only!

Edited, Oct 10th 2011 2:24pm by bsphil
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#24 Oct 10 2011 at 2:04 PM Rating: Excellent
Rinsui wrote:
...nobody wants to join a "normal" PT nowadays anyway, so I have no choice...


Exactly. You will not find a regular party. All of the potential members of said party are PL'ing with their LS.

"Just don't do it" is not really an option. Soloing is nerfed, Leves at low levels are nearly worthless. Regular party's are gone, at least until 40+. Even then, tacking on a Level 50 or two to your 40+ EXP party certainly doesn't hurt.

Please, try to get yourself in a PL party. It is very likely you will change your viewpoint after you see it in action.

Edited, Oct 10th 2011 4:05pm by SmashingtonWho
#25 Oct 10 2011 at 3:18 PM Rating: Good
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The PL thing is going to get out of hand, it will become the norm and people will pay to do it, it's also not a good idea to let people burn through the only content the game has (leveling). Aside from all the negative aspects to accomplishments and general toning down of the game it will also damage crafting etc because nobody will need any levleing gear for leeching.
#26 Oct 10 2011 at 3:38 PM Rating: Good
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Wow. I know the lowbie exp system is unbalanced and difficult, but it sounds like pl is as equally frustrating. Glad I duo with my husband instead of party. I would be so ****** about pl. I want to learn how to work my job, not stand around. Not saying I'm against Pl. Just for me, I think I may pass on it considering I don't know yet my own job well enough, ESP after this patch and so many changes.
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#27 Oct 10 2011 at 4:00 PM Rating: Decent
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Makes it very hard for a developer to tune a game to be successful when the community swears up and down that they want one thing and then completely bypass that thing when they're given an opportunity to do so.
#28 Oct 10 2011 at 4:02 PM Rating: Decent
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Aurelius wrote:
Makes it very hard for a developer to tune a game to be successful when the community swears up and down that they want one thing and then completely bypass that thing when they're given an opportunity to do so.


Which thing are you talking bout Aurelius?
#29 Oct 10 2011 at 4:30 PM Rating: Good
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Aurelius wrote:
Makes it very hard for a developer to tune a game to be successful when the community swears up and down that they want one thing and then completely bypass that thing when they're given an opportunity to do so.


Well if developers didn't make inferior the very thing they're implementing - at the same time they're implementing it - then we wouldn't have such a problem.
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#30 Oct 10 2011 at 4:56 PM Rating: Decent
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je355804 wrote:
Aurelius wrote:
Makes it very hard for a developer to tune a game to be successful when the community swears up and down that they want one thing and then completely bypass that thing when they're given an opportunity to do so.


Which thing are you talking bout Aurelius?


Aimless open world group grinding as the central method of character advancement.

KaneKitty wrote:
Well if developers didn't make inferior the very thing they're implementing - at the same time they're implementing it - then we wouldn't have such a problem.


People playing XIV are, for all practical intents and purposes, still playing a beta game. There's room to tweak and adjust down the line if the devs deem it necessary. Players are the ones making the choice to cheese their way through their own progression. It's just unfortunate that they don't really feel like they're losing out on anything for doing it. And frankly, I don't expect that to change any time soon.
#31 Oct 10 2011 at 5:09 PM Rating: Good
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On the bright side, maybe now people won't quit within the first hour, but rather after their first week.
#32 Oct 10 2011 at 7:05 PM Rating: Good
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I started playing path of exile a week or 2 before the patch(got in closed beta yay!) but I have been keeping my eyes on FFXIV....I am not liking what I am seeing.
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#33 Oct 10 2011 at 7:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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I think SE should just take the game down and tweak if based on NOT a poll. The thing is there are so many different and varying playing styles. It would just IMO be easier to re-release it once they have all the kinks worked out instead of players getting used to one system, the system getting jacked up and then having to learn it anew. There are just too many things...wrong...that need to be fixed...and so on...I would prefer just for them to cut ties with the community for a while until they have their ducks in a row about this game.

I don't think it's good for the dev or anyone working on this game to read all the custructive criticism from the community. They should "fix" w/e. Test it. Tweak it. Test it again, until w/e has been corrected w/o feeling constantly rushed to release a portion of a product.
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#34 Oct 10 2011 at 8:26 PM Rating: Decent
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eh, I almost feel they HAD to do this. Sorry folks, but the game doesn't have a hope in heck of attracting new players of they have to spend a year to catch up with most of the playerbase.

TBH they should have made it so that soloing and real parties were giving as much exp as PLing does now instead of PLing cause really... being PLed is pretty lame... but w/e.

I might actually try to level up if folks in my LS will take me for a whirl. I haven't bothered leveling DoW/DoM for about 6 months because it was such a demoralizing grind.
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#35 Oct 10 2011 at 9:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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Runespider wrote:
The PL thing is going to get out of hand, it will become the norm and people will pay to do it, it's also not a good idea to let people burn through the only content the game has (leveling). Aside from all the negative aspects to accomplishments and general toning down of the game it will also damage crafting etc because nobody will need any leveling gear for leeching.


Saw someone today offering 300k for a level 50 character to PL him.

Its a bad system, and makes my level 50 lancer that i grind for months on feel less valuable and in-tern make me less enthused about playing the game. I don't want to play FFXIV after reading this thread TBH and I doubt i'm the only one. 95% of players will take the path of least resistance, if the path of least resistance is standing around watching people kill stuff for me why wouldn't i do that?

Grinding is tedious but its a necessity for assessing my characters value, If that process is mitigated the community's response to my level 50 that i worked hard for becomes less valuable and intern invalidates grinding.

The whole "Who cares what everyone else is doing?" engages in a delusion that the actions of others have no affect on you. Power leveling was a proven problem in old generation MMO's, Yoshi-P needs to continue to listen to the community and keep his MMO ideologies to himself. It vexes me that he would blindly inject an ex-gen problem into a next gen game.
#36 Oct 10 2011 at 11:02 PM Rating: Good
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eh, I almost feel they HAD to do this. Sorry folks, but the game doesn't have a hope in heck of attracting new players of they have to spend a year to catch up with most of the playerbase.

The game doesn't have a hope in heck of keeping new players if the main objective in the game can be completed afk.
#37 Oct 10 2011 at 11:04 PM Rating: Default
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effing double

Edited, Oct 11th 2011 1:05am by Llester
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#38 Oct 10 2011 at 11:04 PM Rating: Decent
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BartelX wrote:
Yes, power-leveling is insanely overpowered and broken. However, you don't HAVE to powerlevel. I had an absolute blast taking my pug from 22-25 just partying, doing leves, and doing the quests for getting a chocobo. It took a decent amount of time and I felt a sense of accomplishment when I finally dinged 25. I really don't care if someone else just got powerleveled up that high in a couple hours. If that's how they want to play, good for them. I've enjoyed a bit of powerleveling myself and can say I would have rather done that then tried to painfully grind out some of the low levels right now. That's the real issue for me. If the lower levels WEREN'T so painfully slow and awful, I wouldn't have powerleveled. So really, fix the grind at low levels and I could care less about powerleveling. It doesn't affect me in the slightest.



that view is extremely short-sighted. give it some time, it'll affect you too.
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#39 Oct 10 2011 at 11:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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Aurelius wrote:
je355804 wrote:
Aurelius wrote:
Makes it very hard for a developer to tune a game to be successful when the community swears up and down that they want one thing and then completely bypass that thing when they're given an opportunity to do so.


Which thing are you talking bout Aurelius?


Aimless open world group grinding as the central method of character advancement.

KaneKitty wrote:
Well if developers didn't make inferior the very thing they're implementing - at the same time they're implementing it - then we wouldn't have such a problem.


People playing XIV are, for all practical intents and purposes, still playing a beta game. There's room to tweak and adjust down the line if the devs deem it necessary. Players are the ones making the choice to cheese their way through their own progression. It's just unfortunate that they don't really feel like they're losing out on anything for doing it. And frankly, I don't expect that to change any time soon.



while i am tempted to agree, i can't entirely fault the players. i can say for myself, i'm not interested in powerleveling. and i'm not. even though its there.

but the thing is, once the devs allow people to do something like reach cap while ************ to **** in the other room, people are going to do it. mob mentality takes over. people are most idiotic in groups sometimes.

am i defending these people? no. i sort of feel bad for them, and they annoy me, but really, the devs are just as much at fault since they are the ones DESIGNING THE **** GAME THIS WAY. wtf guys. really yoshi? REALLY?
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#40 Oct 11 2011 at 12:36 AM Rating: Excellent
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Llester wrote:
while i am tempted to agree, i can't entirely fault the players. i can say for myself, i'm not interested in powerleveling. and i'm not. even though its there.

but the thing is, once the devs allow people to do something like reach cap while ************ to **** in the other room, people are going to do it. mob mentality takes over. people are most idiotic in groups sometimes.

am i defending these people? no. i sort of feel bad for them, and they annoy me, but really, the devs are just as much at fault since they are the ones DESIGNING THE **** GAME THIS WAY. wtf guys. really yoshi? REALLY?


This is where Yoshi-P can potentially fall into the trap of ruining something for the sake of reinventing the wheel. You don't see this kind of thing in a lot of other MMOs. They're tuned so that players trying to PL one another with high level players doing the killing with lowbies in the group awards little to no experience for the lowbies, and the combat mechanics are tuned so that there's no real benefit to standing around lowbie players (not in a group with them) tossing heal bombs on them while they tackle much higher level monsters. The hit tables make it so that any mob (for example) 5 or more levels higher than the player is extremely hard to hit and gets a substantial bonus to damage reduction. A lowbie player can kill them with outside support (heals) but by the time you add up how long it would take them to kill one very high level mob (relative to their level) and compare it to what they would have earned in the same amount of time fighting mobs their own level, it's just not worth taking the time of the extra high level player to make it possible.

HOWEVER...

People don't mind so much because the leveling process is more diverse and entertaining than simply grinding mobs with snippets and bits of content in between. I know some folks around here have on more than one occasion voiced a distaste for quest-based leveling and that's fine. What they're asking for in its place...grinding (with or without a group)...is what leads to the kinds of PL issues we saw in XI and apparently people are starting to see in XIV. It says an awful lot about just how popular that method of game design is when the players are so quick to adopt shortcuts. I mean, there's a difference between sitting down and doing some number crunching to determine which is the fastest leveling path out of all the options available and taking an almost fully hands-off approach to leveling by letting someone else do the playing while you stand around and soak the rewards.

I can tell you as someone who already owns the game (meaning I could pick it up and start playing again any time without having to shell out any more money), this kind of development is the kind of thing that just makes me that much more certain the game will never hold my interest. Yoshi-P might be making the XI crowd happy by trying to set things up for the party/camp/grind method of leveling, but he's not going to be attracting a whole lot of fresh blood with it. As the game continues to evolve towards what many hope will be a market viable position, what the community adopts as standard practice will be almost as important as what the game itself has to offer. If word gets around that the leveling process is so dull and uninteresting that most people just grind until they can afford a PL to boost them through stretches of leveling, it's not going to do a whole lot to sell units of the game.

I could see it if the game wound up robust with tons of interesting content throughout the entire leveling experience and the only people still drooling over the prospect of PLs are the ones who have convinced themselves that the only good MMO was FFXI and they only tolerate the contemporary additions Yoshi-P has made because they have no other choice if they want to play FFXI-2, but I don't see that happening right now. I see a bit too much effort involved in pandering to the people who will keep XIV dead and not enough thought given to what could make the game great.

What I would HOPE has been the case is largely as follows:

- The mentioned revisions to the maps will be sweeping and substantial. When they're done, the whole 'copy pasta' debacle will become a "remember when" instead of "we've gotten used to it." There should ideally be multiple visual themes for every existing 'region'. La Noscea should not be all green and grey. Thanalan should not be all red and brown. The green place in the forest (don't remember the region name) should not be one...giant tunnel maze green place in a forest that's only visually impressive if you look way up... Every time you exhaust the potential of one current aetheryte camp, the move to the next camp in the line of progression should come with a substantial alteration in visual appearance. PS3 limitations be damned...if the devs can't provide a world that meets modern standards for thematic diversity, the game is going to suffer heavily on the PC market.

- The quests that have been added to the game have simply been thrown in to test a framework and set of tools the devs have begun developing that will allow them to add new quests extremely rapidly to fill the world with a constant stream of things to do.

- The combat revisions already mentioned are simply part of another evolving framework that is still far from complete that will allow the devs to lift the FFXIV combat mechanics to more contemporary levels that don't seem bound by 56k dialup restrictions and stingy server side hardware choices.

- There will be two entirely distinct UIs...one for keyboard/mouse, and one for gamepad. And the keyboard/mouse UI will meet or exceed existing standards for a contemporary MMO in all aspects.

- The market wards need to be scrapped or, at best, preserved as a legacy feature that can be bypassed if a plyer chooses to do so. I got used to it after a couple of revisions but it was still a needlessly tedious system to work with.

IF Yoshi-P and his team can accomplish all of those things, I'd say the game has a chance of starting to recover the investment SE made to develop it. It'll never be a money factory, but my guess is that SE would be happy to break even after 5 years at this point.

And all the while this is happening, Yoshi-P and his team are struggling to bring the game up to the standards of 3-4 years ago. Other games are already pushing well beyond those standards. It's an uphill battle and the clock is always ticking. And that means things like a PL debacle that sends word out to the MMO gaming community at large that the grind is still so tedious and unappealing that people are flocking to bypass it represent a strong step backwards that needs to be corrected with due haste.
#41 Oct 11 2011 at 1:16 AM Rating: Decent
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52 posts
>eh, I almost feel they HAD to do this. Sorry folks, but the game doesn't have a hope in heck of attracting new players of they have to spend a year to catch up with most of the playerbase.



Oh so you're saying all MMOs that are 1 year old or more need to level cap you in 2 days or else they die is that what you're saying?


lol new player gets to 50 in all jobs in 1 week, realizes the game has 0 content and quits. Real smooth move there SE.

Even the most competetive, cash dependent, 15 hour a day grind PVP game(rf online) had plenty new players joining in on a server with people who had 5-7 years of grinding already, and in that game they did not adjust leveling or inflate money over time to smooth it out for newcomers.
#42 Oct 11 2011 at 3:20 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
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87 posts
FluttershyPony wrote:
>Even the most competetive, cash dependent, 15 hour a day grind PVP game(rf online) had plenty new players joining in on a server with people who had 5-7 years of grinding already, and in that game they did not adjust leveling or inflate money over time to smooth it out for newcomers.


Which game would that be?

Edit: Ah! Rising Force Online! The grind game. Gotcha.

Edited, Oct 11th 2011 5:58am by MrMissile
#43 Oct 11 2011 at 9:55 AM Rating: Excellent
Olorinus wrote:
eh, I almost feel they HAD to do this. Sorry folks, but the game doesn't have a hope in heck of attracting new players of they have to spend a year to catch up with most of the playerbase.

TBH they should have made it so that soloing and real parties were giving as much exp as PLing does now instead of PLing cause really... being PLed is pretty lame... but w/e.

I might actually try to level up if folks in my LS will take me for a whirl. I haven't bothered leveling DoW/DoM for about 6 months because it was such a demoralizing grind.


Sure thing! Hop on tonight if you get time Olo.

Looks like balancing the outrageous PL is on the way. Until then, might as well make the most of it.
#44 Oct 11 2011 at 11:16 AM Rating: Excellent
Edited by bsphil
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21,739 posts
Remember when the game first went live and some JPs got banned for abusing leves for random skillups?

And now SE wouldn't do anything to turn away a single player.
____________________________
His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
gbaji wrote:
I'm not getting my news from anywhere Joph.
#45 Oct 11 2011 at 11:32 AM Rating: Decent
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9,526 posts
Caesura wrote:

The game doesn't have a hope in heck of keeping new players if the main objective in the game can be completed afk.is exp grinding


fixed.
____________________________
lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#46 Oct 11 2011 at 11:35 AM Rating: Decent
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9,526 posts
SmashingtonWho wrote:
Olorinus wrote:
eh, I almost feel they HAD to do this. Sorry folks, but the game doesn't have a hope in heck of attracting new players of they have to spend a year to catch up with most of the playerbase.

TBH they should have made it so that soloing and real parties were giving as much exp as PLing does now instead of PLing cause really... being PLed is pretty lame... but w/e.

I might actually try to level up if folks in my LS will take me for a whirl. I haven't bothered leveling DoW/DoM for about 6 months because it was such a demoralizing grind.


Sure thing! Hop on tonight if you get time Olo.

Looks like balancing the outrageous PL is on the way. Until then, might as well make the most of it.


I'll prolly log in tonight. Might as well cap THM so I can try the dungeons.
____________________________
lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#47 Oct 11 2011 at 1:04 PM Rating: Decent
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557 posts
bsphil wrote:
Remember when the game first went live and some JPs got banned for abusing leves for random skillups?

And now SE wouldn't do anything to turn away a single player.

I wonder if they're committed to doing a reboot now. With only "50%" of the content completed (according to the live event), that will be a while, and, if the game is ever PS3-release-ready, it will look a lot different. Right now they'll do anything to keep interest alive and keep players pre-alpha-testing their stuff, but eventually I suspect they'll either put PS3 players on different servers or just reboot all the levels and gear.
____________________________


#48 Oct 11 2011 at 1:10 PM Rating: Good
Sage
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562 posts
Olorinus wrote:
Caesura wrote:

The game doesn't have a hope in heck of keeping new players if the main objective in the game can be completed afk.is exp grinding


fixed.


To each their own. I personally have no interest in end-game and gear grinds, I much prefer an MMO whereby exp grinds are the main focus of the game or at least 75% of it. It's about the journey for me, not the destination.

If FFXIV can't capture 25-40% of the MMO market share because it's seen as too much of a grind and a lengthy endeavor to gain levels, I'm OK with that.
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FFXIV - Fellows - Fabul
FFXI - Fellows - Gilgamesh


#49 Oct 11 2011 at 1:15 PM Rating: Good
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220 posts
In case people aren't checking the official forums:

Quote:
From Reinhart's translation thread:

プロデューサ/ディレクタの吉田です。
Producer/Director Yoshida here,

遅くなってしまい恐縮ですが、吉田からも補足させてください。
Sorry for the delay but let me comment on this as well.

PLは本当に個々人によって単語の捉え方も違いますし、
先行するプレイヤーと、後発のプレイヤーの距離感を縮めるために、
ある程度許容するという方針にブレはありません。
それはあくまでボランティアだったり、PLする側のプレイ時間を消費することで、
仲間や家族、友達のために善意で行う行為だと思っているからです。
There are different feelings towards PL depending on the players view on it but the goal where having new players come closer to older players have not changed.
I believe this is because it's volunteer for the side doing the the PL by spending his/her time helping his friend or family member and doing for good will.

ただ、その範囲は今回の占有改修によって発生することを想定しており、
極端なレベル差がある状態で、PLされる側のキャラクタをPT内に入れたまま放置し、
レベル差分の経験値の減衰が効力を発揮していないことが想定外でした。
We did have an idea about this after after the modification to the claiming system but didn't expect where the person getting PL can be in the party and do nothing and gaining exp without the penalty where it calculates the level difference between the players.

経験値獲得の計算式は、今回のパッチ1.19で根幹のテコ入れが入ったため、
表面上の効力が分かり難くなっており、今回の対応の遅れに繋がっています。
緊急メンテナンスも視野には入れていましたが、パッチ1.19aのリリースが
目前に迫っているため、本件も同時に対応させて頂きます。
There was root changes to the exp gain calculation formula in 1.19 and made it difficult to understand and also reason for the delay.
We thought of having a emergency maintenance but patch 1.19a release is close by so we will have this included in it as well.

混乱について重ねてお詫び致します。
I apologize again and again for the confusion.

They havent given up on anything and are adjusting it.


So the powerleveled not contributing to combat wasn't considered (ya I know what the heck eh? that's a huge oversight) they r fixing it in 1.19a so hurry up and PL
#50 Oct 11 2011 at 1:18 PM Rating: Good
Thanks for posting the update here.
#51 Oct 11 2011 at 1:21 PM Rating: Good
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