Forum Settings
       
« Previous 1 2
This Forum is Read Only

is using a rapid fire controller for crafting OK?Follow

#1 Oct 10 2011 at 4:00 AM Rating: Good
Avatar
31 posts
it's getting tiring pressing the A button on my controller over and over, it would be so much easier to just put on rapidfire and hold the button down.

Is this OK to do? Is rapid fire against the rules? Would I get in trouble for this?
____________________________
FFXIV Name: Hollow Shadow, Server: Karnak, Keeper of the moon female
My FF14 Let's Play = http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL088BF680D575542E

#2 Oct 10 2011 at 5:56 AM Rating: Good
Screenshot

Technically, it's not OK*. But why would you want to?

*If you are at keyboard, it's fine I think.
____________________________
Edited, Mar 21st 2011 2:14pm by Darqflame Lock Thread: Because Lubriderm is silly... ~ de geso

Almalieque wrote:
I know what a glory hole is, but I wasn't sure what the business part was in reference to.

My Anime List
#3 Oct 10 2011 at 6:12 AM Rating: Good
***
1,083 posts
Duke Lubriderm wrote:
But why would you want to?


lol?

I also have a Logitech G510 and was wondering the same thing since it does neat macros. I already made a macro for selling NPCing stuff since the UI is so freaking slow. At least I can press a button to go sell 50 items and then make some coffee and drink it and come back later.
____________________________
Wada: "There may be some areas of testing that were lacking or too rigid."
#4 Oct 10 2011 at 6:26 AM Rating: Decent
Crafting afk is totally different than just selling some **** afk. If you want to bot, just do it, I guess, but don't think that putting some object on a rapid fire controller is somehow technically less wrong.
____________________________
Edited, Mar 21st 2011 2:14pm by Darqflame Lock Thread: Because Lubriderm is silly... ~ de geso

Almalieque wrote:
I know what a glory hole is, but I wasn't sure what the business part was in reference to.

My Anime List
#5 Oct 10 2011 at 6:43 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
***
3,599 posts
Also be aware that the 1000 enter presses per minute are going to shoot up like a red flag to the servers and it will probably look like your using a poor botting program, thus, if thye ever diced to finally do somethign abotu the botting crafters, your name is on the list.
____________________________


#6 Oct 10 2011 at 6:44 AM Rating: Good
***
1,083 posts
Duke Lubriderm wrote:
Crafting afk is totally different than just selling some sh*t afk. If you want to bot, just do it, I guess, but don't think that putting some object on a rapid fire controller is somehow technically less wrong.


How about mind control? Or having my 2 year old do it? I guess if I programmed my AIBO to do it that really would be using a bot >.>

The 2 year old seems like a good option tho.
____________________________
Wada: "There may be some areas of testing that were lacking or too rigid."
#7 Oct 10 2011 at 8:02 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
Avatar
*
117 posts
HollowShadow wrote:
it's getting tiring pressing the A button on my controller over and over, it would be so much easier to just put on rapidfire and hold the button down.

Is this OK to do? Is rapid fire against the rules? Would I get in trouble for this?


Duke Lubriderm wrote:
Crafting afk is totally different than just selling some sh*t afk. If you want to bot, just do it, I guess, but don't think that putting some object on a rapid fire controller is somehow technically less wrong.



Correct me if I'm wrong here, but if you're not doing a leve you have to select the recipe or the items you want to craft each time you start a new synth? (This is how it was in 1.18, not sure if they changed it in 1.19 - so correct me if I'm wrong)

EDIT: I was wrong :D I'm happy they streamlined synthesis and I guess using a macro to hit "enter" all day is botting, unless you are literally sitting at the keyboard every second. However, this goes with the new PowerLeveling they are allowing... makes things very easy to exploit.


The OP wants to just hold down "A" so it spams Standard synth over and over, which means he's there and is just holding the button down instead of mindlessly hitting "A" every 10 seconds.

This would be completely fine, and should not get you banned. There is really no difference between this and what I do... watch a movie and just click the key I have bound to 'Enter' every 10 seconds or so not even paying attention.

This is not botting in any way, he still has to choose his recipe, he still has to confirm and do all that, he's just taking out the part where he has to actually pay attention for the 4 seconds (total seconds) of the entire synth.

So he's not "Crafting AFK" because he is at the keyboard / controller... and it's no different from how anyone else crafts like me who doesn't pay attention at all and just hits 1 key every 10 seconds.

Small EDIT:
He did not say "I'm going to put on turbo and walk away while it auto crafts" he is just sick of hitting "A" 40 times a synth. Cool.

Edited, Oct 10th 2011 10:06am by RemVye


Edited, Oct 10th 2011 12:04pm by RemVye
#8 Oct 10 2011 at 8:20 AM Rating: Good
***
1,083 posts
RemVye wrote:

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but if you're not doing a leve you have to select the recipe or the items you want to craft each time you start a new synth? (This is how it was in 1.18, not sure if they changed it in 1.19 - so correct me if I'm wrong)


They did change it, now it defaults to recipe so literally you can press 'A' or 'Enter' for hours on end and assuming you have the mats and crystals, infinitely synth.

Its odd because they must have known this be an 'option' when they made the change.
____________________________
Wada: "There may be some areas of testing that were lacking or too rigid."
#9 Oct 10 2011 at 9:28 AM Rating: Default
**
557 posts
A friend of mine got the Foo Fighters to do it. It's technically not allowed, but SE hasn't banned him yet.
____________________________


#10 Oct 10 2011 at 9:45 AM Rating: Good
***
3,530 posts
Is it botting? Yes.

Is crafting a terrible system? Heck yes.

Any system that can be overcome by a program as simple as "continually execute one button press" shouldn't be in a game, anyway. Its shortcomings don't make it right to bot through the process, of course, but it certainly makes SE bad designers. I'd usually be more moralistic about such issues but this game has so many problems I can barely summon enough energy to occasionally look back at its tangled mass and sigh.
____________________________
"... he called to himself a wizard, named Gallery, hoping by this means to escape the paying of the fifteen hundred crowns..." (Machen 15)

"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#11 Oct 10 2011 at 10:59 AM Rating: Excellent
***
3,962 posts
My attitude is I don't care if people bot, and am not going to get up in arms about it unless they finally make crafting fun and actually take some sort of sentience in order to participate. I actually just rigged it so I can tap my foot on a controller as I do other things... now that I don't even have to press up/down...

If they make it fun to level I'll start caring again.
#12 Oct 10 2011 at 12:11 PM Rating: Default
Avatar
31 posts
I would like to see 3 check boxes on the crafting window:

□ Auto Standard Synthesis
□ Auto Rapid Synthesis
□ Auto Careful Synthesis

or an option to choose how many to craft at once then let the game do it. Anyone agree? At the end of the fun stuff like quests, killing stuff, and gathering materials then make it easier and faster for the incredibly boring and repetitive crafting process.
____________________________
FFXIV Name: Hollow Shadow, Server: Karnak, Keeper of the moon female
My FF14 Let's Play = http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL088BF680D575542E

#13 Oct 10 2011 at 1:00 PM Rating: Decent
Sage
**
551 posts
HollowShadow wrote:
I would like to see 3 check boxes on the crafting window:

□ Auto Standard Synthesis
□ Auto Rapid Synthesis
□ Auto Careful Synthesis

or an option to choose how many to craft at once then let the game do it. Anyone agree? At the end of the fun stuff like quests, killing stuff, and gathering materials then make it easier and faster for the incredibly boring and repetitive crafting process.

This would solve a lot of the frustrations of leveling a craft. I say yes.
____________________________



#14 Oct 10 2011 at 1:09 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
***
1,098 posts
I thought all crafting items have moving sweet spots to make the game more random to prevent this.I'm all over the place in crafting with the high level standard mash.I bet after this don't work i'll go back to my old way after 4 failures.
____________________________





#15 Oct 10 2011 at 1:27 PM Rating: Good
***
3,530 posts
Zorvan wrote:
HollowShadow wrote:
I would like to see 3 check boxes on the crafting window:

□ Auto Standard Synthesis
□ Auto Rapid Synthesis
□ Auto Careful Synthesis

or an option to choose how many to craft at once then let the game do it. Anyone agree? At the end of the fun stuff like quests, killing stuff, and gathering materials then make it easier and faster for the incredibly boring and repetitive crafting process.

This would solve a lot of the frustrations of leveling a craft. I say yes.


I'd rather have SE make crafting interesting than slap a "fast forward" button on the sad excuse for a finished system they have currently. Crafting shouldn't be, to use your words, "at the end of the fun stuff." Everything in the game (in a game) should be at least compelling enough not to drive most people away with mindless tedium.

Implementing "auto-craft" options would alleviate some frustration by reducing the amount of simple repetition, but crafting as a whole would still be yawn-inducing at best. :\
____________________________
"... he called to himself a wizard, named Gallery, hoping by this means to escape the paying of the fifteen hundred crowns..." (Machen 15)

"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#16 Oct 10 2011 at 1:48 PM Rating: Good
Edited by bsphil
******
21,739 posts
That would help, but it's hard to imagine the system getting any worse. The downside of listening to what the people want is that sometimes people have no conscious idea of what they actually want, and worse yet, consciously thinking about it causes them to come up with ideas that they'll end up hating. Case in point: Turning crafting into a mini-game. Sounds like a creative and fresh idea out of the players who are tired of "push butan, receev bacon" crafting. People end up forgetting that they're going to be repeating that mini-game hundreds to thousands of times for a single craft.



Edited, Oct 10th 2011 2:49pm by bsphil
____________________________
His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
gbaji wrote:
I'm not getting my news from anywhere Joph.
#17 Oct 10 2011 at 1:54 PM Rating: Decent
Avatar
7 posts
SE isn't going to do anything about it. I see all these people in the instanced zone craft botting (reported) in their little corner everyday but nothing will be done about it.

OP: It's "not allowed" but you'll get away with it.
#18 Oct 10 2011 at 2:00 PM Rating: Decent
****
4,145 posts
Louiscool wrote:
Also be aware that the 1000 enter presses per minute are going to shoot up like a red flag to the servers and it will probably look like your using a poor botting program, thus, if thye ever diced to finally do somethign abotu the botting crafters, your name is on the list.


Hopefully those 1000 enter presses per minute will shoot up like a red flag to SE and they will realize they have a poor crafting program, thus, if they ever decide to do something about the botting crafters, fixing crafting will be on the list.
____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#19 Oct 10 2011 at 2:03 PM Rating: Decent
**
557 posts
Are those 1,000 presses per minute that get sent to SE and processed by SE's servers?

Crikey, no wonder the game has so much lag.
____________________________


#20 Oct 10 2011 at 2:10 PM Rating: Decent
Avatar
31 posts
bsphil wrote:
That would help, but it's hard to imagine the system getting any worse. The downside of listening to what the people want is that sometimes people have no conscious idea of what they actually want, and worse yet, consciously thinking about it causes them to come up with ideas that they'll end up hating. Case in point: Turning crafting into a mini-game. Sounds like a creative and fresh idea out of the players who are tired of "push butan, receev bacon" crafting. People end up forgetting that they're going to be repeating that mini-game hundreds to thousands of times for a single craft.


I don't mind chopping trees or mining it's sort of interesting... going out to find spots, then a sort of mini game where we have to find the right spot to hit. Fishing is my favorite gathering mini game compared to Botany and Mining I like it better because you have to first get a fish on the hook then you get to play the game to reel it in. Still not as good as the fishing mini game from Zelda but it involves more then hitting ENTER 1,000,000 times for 10 hours.

What I would really like is a more involved/interesting crafting process with higher EXP output. triple or 4x the EXP you get now. It could be interesting and less repetitive.

____________________________
FFXIV Name: Hollow Shadow, Server: Karnak, Keeper of the moon female
My FF14 Let's Play = http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL088BF680D575542E

#21 Oct 10 2011 at 4:39 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
*
179 posts
I used to use a G15 and have it run a loop. It helps being there since it'll mess up every once in a while. I wouldn't recommend your repeating controller thingy; that many button pushes could get SE's attention and your failure rate could get high without actually using abilities.

As someone that auto crafted all the time--you're probably fine using a controller or a gaming mouse/keyboard.
____________________________
FFXIV: Tebhi Liontamer 37 Elezen Marauder Besaid
FFXI: Luk 75 Hume Beastmaster Gilgamesh / Tehbst 85 Taru Beastmaster Ifrit
#22 Oct 10 2011 at 7:13 PM Rating: Good
***
3,530 posts
bsphil wrote:
That would help, but it's hard to imagine the system getting any worse. The downside of listening to what the people want is that sometimes people have no conscious idea of what they actually want


Parts of that article remind me of Portal 2's Cave Johnson, especially this one:

"Not everything has been validated yet (I don’t need validation. Tons of psychology research backs this stuff up.)"
____________________________
"... he called to himself a wizard, named Gallery, hoping by this means to escape the paying of the fifteen hundred crowns..." (Machen 15)

"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#23 Oct 11 2011 at 2:50 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
826 posts
HollowShadow wrote:
I would like to see 3 check boxes on the crafting window:

□ Auto Standard Synthesis
□ Auto Rapid Synthesis
□ Auto Careful Synthesis

or an option to choose how many to craft at once then let the game do it. Anyone agree? At the end of the fun stuff like quests, killing stuff, and gathering materials then make it easier and faster for the incredibly boring and repetitive crafting process.


This is not a terrible idea, and actually has been suggested via official boards; the problem is maintaining that fine line between 'doing it yourself' and 'botting'. Without a total revamp of the crafting UI and system, it won't happen anytime soon. I'm not sure why they didn't work on something alongside the recipe changes, as there is zero challenge (only annoyance) to pressing enter a gazillion times to reach 50. I always preferred the crafting systems in games like LOTRO for example. If you took the time to farm the mats, which is usually 4 hours+ for a half level above L35, then you shouldn't need to be punished through a barrage of enter, arrow up, arrow down, enter, enter, arrow up, enter.
____________________________
Jerri Blank (Strangers with Candy):
"I may still be doing all the wrong things, but now i'm doing them the right way!"
#24 Oct 11 2011 at 8:17 AM Rating: Decent
Avatar
**
569 posts
@OP
Using a rapid fire is no different then using a keyboard macro. Technically speaking it is against the rules as you are in fact using out side software/hardware to perform in game tasks. That said in the eye's of the 5% of crafters that did NOT use any such means it's considered cheating the system, in the eyes of the 95% that did it's acceptable. End of the day it's your call really do you want to feel accomplishment for hitting 50 in craft x or y, or will it feel as empty as hitting 1-40 in 3h's PL party.

ps: SE is aware if you use macro or rapid fire after the 3rth synth. A blind eye is turned only up until game is p2p. Macro and rapid fire press A or Enter at a preset time interval as such it's easy to catch/detect.
____________________________
99th paper cut, and the grain of salt.
#25 Oct 11 2011 at 8:55 AM Rating: Default
**
557 posts
KaneKitty wrote:
bsphil wrote:
That would help, but it's hard to imagine the system getting any worse. The downside of listening to what the people want is that sometimes people have no conscious idea of what they actually want


Parts of that article remind me of Portal 2's Cave Johnson, especially this one:

"Not everything has been validated yet (I don’t need validation. Tons of psychology research backs this stuff up.)"

Ha, I missed that, and as a psychology researcher who is currently validating theoretical research with applied studies, that's relevant to my interests.

People really don't know what they want in games they've never played, but game developers know what games people play; hence the current state of MMOs. FFXIV, for what it's worth, was different, relying not on focus groups or the features of thriving MMOs but on the expertise and ingenuity of its development team. That works for offline FF titles; people generally come to expect major gameplay changes in RPGs and look forward to innovation. They're not that hard, you really don't spend that much time grinding, you spend very little time interacting with vendors, item management is a no-brainer, interfaces tend to run smoothly, there's no weird account issues. The developers can focus on making combat and level progression fun, and there's less that can go wrong.

With on-line MMOs, it seems expectations have become a bit firmer, probably because these require so much more time than offline RPGs. People really start to develop a certain competitive skillset that they don't want to radically adjust for a new game. If I had played FFXIV 10 years ago, I'd have loved it. Now, it just doesn't have what I come to expect from an MMO, and I am unwilling to adapt my gameplay to it. Yes, partly this is because of its clunkiness, which punishes experimentation, but partly it's because I do not expect crafting to be so time-consuming. I have a schema (back to psychology) for how crafting operates, and FFXIV violates it. Using a rapid-fire controller kinda brings it back to where we expect crafting to be, even if the average gamer wouldn't say this is ideal.
____________________________


#26 Oct 11 2011 at 11:15 AM Rating: Good
***
1,083 posts
This along with the whole Powerleveling fiasco indicates to me that Square Enix has given up on making leveling anything enjoyable or interesting. Instead of focusing on an extremely satisfying experience (think of any single player RPG whose combat and leveling up system actually made you crave combat), they would rather just cater to the lowest common denominator and allow you to literally one button press your way to 50 -- or in combat's case, sit there and do nothing.

The question is, is this for real? Permanent? or is there actual real gameplay in FFXIV's future?
____________________________
Wada: "There may be some areas of testing that were lacking or too rigid."
#27 Oct 11 2011 at 11:19 AM Rating: Excellent
Anyone not manually pressing the buttons necessary to perform synthesis is by definition botting. Whether it be via Controller, Macro, Script, 3rd-Party Program, or any other means. All I can tell you is if you do it you better not get caught.
____________________________
Humankind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something of equal value must be lost.
Data Center: Primal; Server: Ultros; Free Company: The Kraken Club; Grand Company: The Maelstrom; Chocobo: Kweh
#28 Oct 11 2011 at 11:25 AM Rating: Decent
Edited by bsphil
******
21,739 posts
StateAlchemist of Amestris wrote:
All I can tell you is if you do it you better not get caught.
Honestly, given the state of the game, has anyone been "caught"?
____________________________
His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
gbaji wrote:
I'm not getting my news from anywhere Joph.
#29 Oct 11 2011 at 11:43 AM Rating: Decent
Avatar
**
569 posts
bsphil wrote:
StateAlchemist of Amestris wrote:
All I can tell you is if you do it you better not get caught.
Honestly, given the state of the game, has anyone been "caught"?


It's simple. Does SE know who bots in gathering/crafting? yes. Will they do something about it? yes. When will gatherers/crafters get banned for it? this i can't answer. Don't assume that the lack of action from SE's side = they don't know. I would not be surprised if a month after XIV is pay 2 play least 60% of crafters will be gone(banned) do to past or currant 3rd party use for skill ups.
____________________________
99th paper cut, and the grain of salt.
#30 Oct 11 2011 at 11:57 AM Rating: Excellent
TwiddleDee wrote:
bsphil wrote:
StateAlchemist of Amestris wrote:
All I can tell you is if you do it you better not get caught.
Honestly, given the state of the game, has anyone been "caught"?


It's simple. Does SE know who bots in gathering/crafting? yes. Will they do something about it? yes. When will gatherers/crafters get banned for it? this i can't answer. Don't assume that the lack of action from SE's side = they don't know. I would not be surprised if a month after XIV is pay 2 play least 60% of crafters will be gone(banned) do to past or currant 3rd party use for skill ups.

^This.

I already hive a list of at least 50 people on Palamecia that will get banned due to multiple reports made against them for botting. It's just a matter of time. To be honest I am glad they didn't ban them yet, because then they would have just created another account. When they do ban them, They will be hitting a lot of people with a ton of level 50 crafts/gathering/etc. I will chuckle when some well known names are gone.
____________________________
Humankind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something of equal value must be lost.
Data Center: Primal; Server: Ultros; Free Company: The Kraken Club; Grand Company: The Maelstrom; Chocobo: Kweh
#31 Oct 11 2011 at 12:16 PM Rating: Excellent
***
1,083 posts
I don't know, with the current state of the crafting system, I would argue:

ENTRAPMENT
____________________________
Wada: "There may be some areas of testing that were lacking or too rigid."
#32 Oct 11 2011 at 12:24 PM Rating: Excellent
**
542 posts
TwiddleDee wrote:
bsphil wrote:
StateAlchemist of Amestris wrote:
All I can tell you is if you do it you better not get caught.
Honestly, given the state of the game, has anyone been "caught"?


It's simple. Does SE know who bots in gathering/crafting? yes. Will they do something about it? yes. When will gatherers/crafters get banned for it? this i can't answer. Don't assume that the lack of action from SE's side = they don't know. I would not be surprised if a month after XIV is pay 2 play least 60% of crafters will be gone(banned) do to past or currant 3rd party use for skill ups.


I personally would be surprised. I don't know if SE would really want to start banning players who do decide to stick around once the game is pay to play. It doesn't seem like something they can afford. Besides, any discussion that came of it would likely be negative and only serve to turn away potential new players, for one because it would be well known that the crafting system is so tedious that one can literally "bot" it by hitting the same button repeatedly, and for another because people getting banned for using turbo controllers just makes SE appear ban happy. The thought of getting banned for something you may not even be aware is against the rules is a huge turn off for some players (anyone remember the FFXI gardening bans?).

Then again, SE's decisions haven't always made the most sense, so what they choose to do about it is really a toss up IMO. If I were in charge, I'd probably be more concerned about revamping the crafting system so that it could not be so easily bypassed by something as simple as a turbo controller, rather than banning people that use them. Crafting hasn't seen a major change since "spam rapid" was switched to "spam standard." If changes were made that made crafting thoughtful and engaging, people would probably be less likely to bot, and possibly even make it more enjoyable.
#33 Oct 11 2011 at 1:04 PM Rating: Default
Avatar
**
569 posts
Susanoh wrote:

I personally would be surprised. I don't know if SE would really want to start banning players who do decide to stick around once the game is pay to play. It doesn't seem like something they can afford. Besides, any discussion that came of it would likely be negative and only serve to turn away potential new players, for one because it would be well known that the crafting system is so tedious that one can literally "bot" it by hitting the same button repeatedly, and for another because people getting banned for using turbo controllers just makes SE appear ban happy. The thought of getting banned for something you may not even be aware is against the rules is a huge turn off for some players (anyone remember the FFXI gardening bans?).


Well way i see it and this is just me, any player who is turned off a game in which boting will result in a ban. Is some one who would not last long to begin with and would be gone in a week. Tedious = accomplishment, crafting and leveling needs to be tedious so every time you "chip the paint" a player gets the feeling they have done something. Use of Controller, Macro, Script, 3rd-Party Program, or any other means is against the ToA, so getting banned for using them is no surprise.

Quote:
Then again, SE's decisions haven't always made the most sense, so what they choose to do about it is really a toss up IMO. If I were in charge, I'd probably be more concerned about revamping the crafting system so that it could not be so easily bypassed by something as simple as a turbo controller, rather than banning people that use them. Crafting hasn't seen a major change since "spam rapid" was switched to "spam standard." If changes were made that made crafting thoughtful and engaging, people would probably be less likely to bot, and possibly even make it more enjoyable.


Yes and no, although i do agree that if the system was changed it could be made less bot friendly. However even if it was more engaging people will still find a way to cheat and make it easy. It's the way it is, if an easy path is possible even if full with holes and traps more then 1/2 the people will choose that over the longer and much safer path.
____________________________
99th paper cut, and the grain of salt.
#34 Oct 11 2011 at 1:59 PM Rating: Excellent
**
542 posts
TwiddleDee wrote:
Well way i see it and this is just me, any player who is turned off a game in which boting will result in a ban. Is some one who would not last long to begin with and would be gone in a week. Tedious = accomplishment, crafting and leveling needs to be tedious so every time you "chip the paint" a player gets the feeling they have done something. Use of Controller, Macro, Script, 3rd-Party Program, or any other means is against the ToA, so getting banned for using them is no surprise.

Yes and no, although i do agree that if the system was changed it could be made less bot friendly. However even if it was more engaging people will still find a way to cheat and make it easy. It's the way it is, if an easy path is possible even if full with holes and traps more then 1/2 the people will choose that over the longer and much safer path.


Oh, I agree that turning players off because of botting is just fine. A good thing for the overall state of the game, I'd say. The only problem I see here is that the lines between botting and playing are blurred in this situation. Downloading third party programs to play the game for you can be viewed as quite a bit different than using a controller that presses the same button over and over. Many people never considered turbo controllers to be a form of botting, I would imagine. People tend to use specialized controllers for specific tasks in PC games. Maybe not in tournaments (I wouldn't know, to be honest), but for home use keyboards and mice that allow for extra macros or buttons isn't entirely uncommon. Turbo controllers have been around for ages, and never really did anything too spectacular imo. They hit a button constantly instead of hitting it once. I rarely ever used them (had some for SNES back in the day), but never considered them a problem either. If people hear something like "a large chunk of FFXIV players got banned for using turbo controllers" I'd imagine most people's first thoughts are going to be that that's absolutely ridiculous. If you were to explain the reasons why turbo controllers are comparable to botting in FFXIV, it'd only make it sound more ridiculous, as you'd have to explain that crafting on here can be reduced to one big game of "hit the button." So even if using a turbo controller could be seen as cheating right now, I really think that's something SE would do best to try and keep hidden, rather than go on a banning spree and make sure this little bit of game design gets as much publicity as possible.

And I do agree that people will always take the easiest path possible. I think the best solution is to make the best path one that requires you to play the game as intended. Botting is most common in the simplest tasks, so make it a bit more complex and you'll see more people trying to actively participate. I don't expect a ridiculous amount of complexity, but something that at the very least requires you to pay attention is needed if anyone expects botting to stop, or at least be supressed.

Edited, Oct 11th 2011 4:01pm by Susanoh
#35 Oct 11 2011 at 2:29 PM Rating: Default
Avatar
**
569 posts
Susanoh i do agree that the line is paper thin, however it's not as gray area as people may think. Here's why. To use the macros on your keyboard, mouse, controller you need to instal the software for them. And you build said macro in to the program for that devise. When you press the macro the program performs the preset key functions, in a preset loop... see what am getting at a program playing the game instead of you. Which is clearly against the ToA. SE will not say X number people band for turbo controller/ macro use. More like X number of people banned for using bots.

As for crafting/gathering that needs attention that will not stop bots. I can't fish worth of sh*t in XIV, and bots are reason you see fish in the wards. Only way to make bots loose value is to make people none dependable on the "system", which is not possible in a MMO. If it was you would be playing single player RPG.

Edited, Oct 11th 2011 4:30pm by TwiddleDee
____________________________
99th paper cut, and the grain of salt.
#36 Oct 11 2011 at 3:20 PM Rating: Excellent
**
542 posts
Oh, I know SE wouldn't say they were banned for using a turbo controller, but the community definitely would. SE is always vague in their wording, but that doesn't mean people don't know what's going on. For example, all of the backlash from the FFXI gardening bans were because of the community. I honestly don't remember what SE said on the matter when it was happening (if anything) but it hardly matters. It's the players' and reviewers opinions that will sway other people to buy or not buy this game, not SE.

As for botting, I never used them or payed attention to the botting community, so I could be wrong about complexity reducing the amount of botting going on. I'd think if something like using specific options based on, say, the color of the orb, that would halt them, but that depends on whether a bot could detect the color of the orb and make decisions based on it.
#37 Oct 11 2011 at 3:51 PM Rating: Excellent
***
1,949 posts
You guys seem to think crafting is boring, I guess you haven't tried fishing or spearfishing yet...

Talk about activities that make me want to gouge my eyes out...
____________________________
FFXIV: Cloe Delisle Scholar, officer of the SWAGGER Free company, Sargatanas server.
#38 Oct 11 2011 at 5:22 PM Rating: Excellent
***
3,962 posts
Honestly... if you think SE has any idea who is botting simply on the pretense that they are actually doing so, you're naive to say the least.

I actually looked into what the current options for botting are before I decided to make this post, and some of the more popular options not only allow for random variation in the amount of time between actions, they also have chimes for receiving tells, etc.

I probably hit my confirm key more regularly than someone who was botting and setting a random variation in their activity.

Banning via automated telemetry is a bad idea, and I am seriously doubtful that SE is even gathering the information the way you think they are, they're not exactly top dog when it comes to using analytics.

Will they eventually? Perhaps, but I don't see this happening until they feel like crafting is fun or at least not mind-numbing. Banning botters before that time, or legacy banning them would be a terrible idea, because those players are guaranteed subscriptions. Honestly, I don't think they ought to, because I can't even blame people for doing it at this point in the game. 90% of my crafting sessions are me not even looking at the screen while I craft, and doing other things.
#39 Oct 12 2011 at 8:21 AM Rating: Decent
Avatar
**
569 posts
RamseySylph wrote:
Will they eventually? Perhaps, but I don't see this happening until they feel like crafting is fun or at least not mind-numbing. Banning botters before that time, or legacy banning them would be a terrible idea, because those players are guaranteed subscriptions.


Did you EVER craft in FFXI? It took 1-2 week worth of crafting to get 1 to 1.5 skill up past 70. And there crafting one synth at a time, and you had to add each item individual. On top of that, materials past 70 were extremely expensive and hard to obtain. On top of all that you had 0 control over crafting... and so on. Crafting in XIV is kid's play in comparison.

Quote:
Honestly, I don't think they ought to, because I can't even blame people for doing it at this point in the game. 90% of my crafting sessions are me not even looking at the screen while I craft, and doing other things.


What i see happening in the future of crafting is same thing that will be implemented in 1.19a if you are caught abusing the PL system you will simply have said class, or account reset.


____________________________
99th paper cut, and the grain of salt.
#40 Oct 12 2011 at 1:11 PM Rating: Excellent
***
3,530 posts
Docent42 wrote:
You guys seem to think crafting is boring, I guess you haven't tried... spearfishing yet...

Talk about activities that make me want to gouge my eyes out...


Well, on the bright side, at least you have the tool handy to do so!
____________________________
"... he called to himself a wizard, named Gallery, hoping by this means to escape the paying of the fifteen hundred crowns..." (Machen 15)

"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#41 Oct 12 2011 at 1:53 PM Rating: Good
***
3,962 posts
Against my better judgment, I am going to respond to your post.

TwiddleDee wrote:
RamseySylph wrote:
Will they eventually? Perhaps, but I don't see this happening until they feel like crafting is fun or at least not mind-numbing. Banning botters before that time, or legacy banning them would be a terrible idea, because those players are guaranteed subscriptions.


Did you EVER craft in FFXI? It took 1-2 week worth of crafting to get 1 to 1.5 skill up past 70. And there crafting one synth at a time, and you had to add each item individual. On top of that, materials past 70 were extremely expensive and hard to obtain. On top of all that you had 0 control over crafting... and so on. Crafting in XIV is kid's play in comparison.


Yes I crafted in Final Fantasy XI. What's your point? Do you have one? Did you think before you typed?

Final Fantasy XIV is not Final Fantasy XI.

Crafting is a core mechanic, and crafting classes are intended as primary modes of play. In the previous online installment of this series, crafting were merely professions, which you could focus on one of, and it was never intended or designed for players to be able to focus primarily on crafting.

On top of all of this, you're totally ignoring the entire point anyone is making about the crafting system. It's not that it's slow it's mind-numbingly boring. I wouldn't mind it taking weeks to gain a level at the higher levels, if I was enthralled with the experience itself.

Games are supposed to be fun, believe it or not. When something is simply side-content, like professions, you can get away with that content not being that exciting, because people don't really expect it to be. But when you start touting that it's an alternate method of play, people expect that to be an enjoyable thing to do.

TwiddleDee wrote:

Quote:
Honestly, I don't think they ought to, because I can't even blame people for doing it at this point in the game. 90% of my crafting sessions are me not even looking at the screen while I craft, and doing other things.


What i see happening in the future of crafting is same thing that will be implemented in 1.19a if you are caught abusing the PL system you will simply have said class, or account reset.



What are you talking about? Where have they made any statements regarding reseting accounts that used the PL system? It's not even an exploit, it's a feature they implemented in 1.19 and are either nerfing or removing.

What I'm telling you about crafting is that they don't keep telemetry on crafters to the degree where they could automagically roll back their skill gains or delete their accounts. And even if they did, without confirmation from some other method, they'd be in danger of grievously banning or rolling back non-botters.

None of the bots or methods that people to use alter the memory of FFXIV, they'd need to have the server logging huge amounts of data and sifting through it to even start to figure out who could potentially be botting. While I would be willing to bet a large wad of cash that they are currently not doing this, if they are doing it, they sure as **** shouldn't be, because the server is already bogged down and slow, and their energy would be better spent elsewhere.

Once they have ironed out the game, they're charging a subscription fee, they've launched on PS3, and they've added enough to crafting that it's at least marginally entertaining, then I can see them devoting resources to ensuring that no future abuse takes place.
#42 Oct 12 2011 at 4:16 PM Rating: Decent
Avatar
**
569 posts
RamseySylph wrote:

Bla bla bla


Ok, seems your about as dense and a bolder let me explain. Did i have a point yes. Did i think before typing yes. Did YOU get it no. I'll compare DoW/M to DoH/L maybe THEN it will sink in that no matter mind-numbingly boring OR not, using third party tool to do it is still
cheating.

Let's begin:

DoW/M vs DoH/L
->For DoW/M, you need to kill X amount of enemies to get the exp you need. And combat consist of pressing enter several times to engage. Then using the arrow keys or the mouse you select skills to help you with the kill. The Higher the level the more EXP you need, the more you grind.
->For DoH/L you need to make X amount of crafts to get the exp you need. And crafting consist of pressing enter several times. Then using the arrow keys or the mouse you select skills to help you with the craft. The Higher the level the more EXP you need, the more you grind

Now if you read carefully the 2 are not so different.. at the core. The rest is pulling at straws.

As for rolling back you account, that is the plan after 1.19a for people that are caught exploiting the PL system. Meaning no more 6people afk, as 2 50's PL them for hours on end. As for the crafting side it's not as technical to find people using auto craft from people that do not as you make it sound.

And you keep saying you want crafting to be "entertaining" you do know that that is not possible. **** why don't you engineer a system that makes it fun maybe I'll start crafting to then. Personally i wish SE would just make crafting in to professions like it should be and focus on fixing the rest of the game.
____________________________
99th paper cut, and the grain of salt.
#43 Oct 12 2011 at 4:27 PM Rating: Good
****
9,526 posts
TwiddleDee wrote:


As for rolling back you account, that is the plan after 1.19a for people that are caught exploiting the PL system. Meaning no more 6people afk, as 2 50's PL them for hours on end. As for the crafting side it's not as technical to find people using auto craft from people that do not as you make it sound.



Could you please quote that from a source outside of your ****? Cause it isn't happening.

If they actually cared about ppl getting powerleveled they would have had an emergency patch. Instead they are pretty much using it to draw people in saying "HURRY GET YOUR AWESOME EXP BEFORE WE PATCH IT OUT."

Yoshi already says he approves of powerleveling... so just F off with your ridiculous statements "The game being boring and horribly grindy is what makes it rewarding!" etc.

____________________________
lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#44 Oct 12 2011 at 4:51 PM Rating: Excellent
***
3,962 posts
Lol... At breaking down combat and trying to imply that it's just as un-involved or linear as literally standing still and pressing confirm for hours on end...



Edited, Oct 12th 2011 3:52pm by RamseySylph
#45 Oct 12 2011 at 4:59 PM Rating: Good
***
1,083 posts
RamseySylph wrote:
Lol... At breaking down combat and trying to imply that it's just as un-involved or linear as literally standing still and pressing confirm for hours on end...


No, no, you heard the dee-ster, the rest is just pulling at straws!
____________________________
Wada: "There may be some areas of testing that were lacking or too rigid."
#46 Oct 12 2011 at 5:02 PM Rating: Good
****
9,526 posts
As for botting etc, I think it sucks that people do this, but so many have that they might as well just make it a feature. I've heard other games allow you to just autocraft ingredients you've gathered. ATM I'm thinking this is the way to go, if only to even out the playing field between people who have been botting and those who haven't.
____________________________
lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#47 Oct 12 2011 at 5:43 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
513 posts
TwiddleDee wrote:

DoW/M vs DoH/L
->For DoW/M, you need to kill X amount of enemies to get the exp you need. And combat consist of pressing enter several times to engage. Then using the arrow keys or the mouse you select skills to help you with the kill.

Is this really the way you control your character in combat? That's like the least efficient way you could possibly do it (hyperbole but close enough).

Edited, Oct 12th 2011 7:44pm by Omena
____________________________
#48 Oct 12 2011 at 5:49 PM Rating: Default
Avatar
**
569 posts
Olorinus wrote:
TwiddleDee wrote:


As for rolling back you account, that is the plan after 1.19a for people that are caught exploiting the PL system. Meaning no more 6people afk, as 2 50's PL them for hours on end. As for the crafting side it's not as technical to find people using auto craft from people that do not as you make it sound.



Could you please quote that from a source outside of your ****? Cause it isn't happening.

If they actually cared about ppl getting powerleveled they would have had an emergency patch. Instead they are pretty much using it to draw people in saying "HURRY GET YOUR AWESOME EXP BEFORE WE PATCH IT OUT."

Yoshi already says he approves of powerleveling... so just F off with your ridiculous statements "The game being boring and horribly grindy is what makes it rewarding!" etc.



You are correct in that Yoshi does approve, however if you did not catch it he also said that the way people jumped on it was an abuse to the system. PL "was" intended for person X to assist person Y to close the level gap. Not for a 8 man group to be taking rotations to PL people that are AFK. Though the rollback of an account is not yet confirmed. What is is the fact that people will be penalized for dung that in 1.19a.

In my opinion it needs to be more "boring and horribly grindy" but to each his own.

RamseySylph wrote:
Lol... At breaking down combat and trying to imply that it's just as un-involved or linear as literally standing still and pressing confirm for hours on end...
[/i]


Maybe we are playing 2 different games then, way i see it there's no difference out side of the order in which you press the same 5 buttons (arrow keys and enter/confirm). Still waiting to read your model of a fun crafting system. If SE cant do it maybe you can. In the mean time I'll go cook me some dinner, oddly it's a tedious and annoying task in rl too.
____________________________
99th paper cut, and the grain of salt.
#49 Oct 12 2011 at 9:16 PM Rating: Good
****
9,526 posts
sorry where is your actual quote to back up your assertion "people will be punished"

Also after the initial ingredients are entered you don't need to press any arrows at all to craft. Just hit X.

Edited, Oct 12th 2011 8:17pm by Olorinus
____________________________
lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#50 Oct 12 2011 at 9:39 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
*
196 posts
oh please... like FFXIV will really do anything to the bot crafters.. That's just going to make the server even less populated than it already is..

Go ahead and use a macro to craft.. personally I use joy2key to make rapid clicks in succession using my gamepad.. works great!

Edited, Oct 12th 2011 11:40pm by nick2412
____________________________
WoW: we want to give players a more fun time with less grinding and generic quests
GW2: we want the player to feel like they are leveling while doing something fun
Final Fantasy XIV: we want less fun and more grinding
#51 Oct 12 2011 at 10:09 PM Rating: Excellent
**
465 posts
As someone who is about as anti-botter as it gets, I've given up entirely as far as caring about craft bots. Which is the same thing SE seems to be doing by now allowing you to craft forever by just hitting Enter. That's not to say I'll go find a controller or script that will do it for me; I don't have any pressing desire to have every DoH at 50. Sorry, I couldn't avoid that pun..

To me at this point, having something craft for you seems about equivalent to the more questionable/serious XI windower plug-ins. Is it technically cheating, and is it impacting game balance (i.e., does it matter)? Of course.
____________________________
Lodestone
« Previous 1 2
This forum is read only
This Forum is Read Only!
Recent Visitors: 19 All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (19)