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#202 Oct 20 2011 at 11:55 AM Rating: Good
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hexaemeron wrote:
I suppose I can concede that. But personally, I like the idea that I'm a part of a larger story, contributing in a reasonable organic way. Killing 10,000 doblyns to get to 50... really wasn't organic to me, you know?


That's the thing though right there in order to be a "part of a larger story" and "contributing in a reasonable organic way" you need to be able to stand up against the challenges that come along. And just like you don't go to an engineering company to learn to add 1 and 1, you go to school. You first need to learn your class before you can be an asset in a story line. Here's you immersion right there you play a DoW and in order for that weapon to be more then a pile of metal you need to train (level up) until you have the adequate mastery (level/rank) over it so you don't get 1 **** killed. If you go in to martial art's you'll perform the same exercises for nearly 2 years before you have the skill to actually begin learning the art.
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#203 Oct 20 2011 at 11:57 AM Rating: Good
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hexaemeron wrote:
BartelX wrote:
hexaemeron wrote:
BartelX wrote:
hexaemeron wrote:
Where's the immersion in just going on animal genocide runs over and over and over again? There is no impact on the world at large from anything you do. There is no greater understanding of the people or the places.


Right, because it's not like every other freakin MMO in existence allows you to go on animal genocide runs to level up. Have you even bothered trying to dungeons they've put in, or the massive plethora of quests they've added, or the GC content, or caravans, or... I think you get the point. I think you just see what you want to see in the game and regardless of what other people tell you there is it just won't be good enough for you. And honestly, that's fine. Don't play the game. But don't come on here and talk about a "lack of immersion" when it's abundantly clear you've done NOTHING to immerse yourself in the game. You're looking for excuses, and I think it's rather pathetic.

edit: just to clarify, I'm not saying this is the most immersive game ever created. Far from it. But to say it completely lacks any immersion is absolutely not true.


Edited, Oct 20th 2011 1:15pm by BartelX


My my, that was awfully invective of you. First off, I suppose it's debateable whether there's a difference between an ongoing story arc for why some NPC might need 10 wolf pelts versus "There is no reason these animals must die other than you need to level up."

I suppose I can concede that. But personally, I like the idea that I'm a part of a larger story, contributing in a reasonable organic way. Killing 10,000 doblyns to get to 50... really wasn't organic to me, you know?


Nope, hence why I stopped playing last February and just came back about a month ago. And you know what I found out? There is a heck of a lot more immersive content now than there was in February, go figure! It's not doblyn fantasy anymore like it used to be, and a comment like that just proves to me that you clearly have NOT tried out much of the new content yet. And if that's the case, it pretty much invalidates your argument of a lack of immersion.


No, it doesn't invalidate anything because it's my opinion. I've logged in to 1.18 and 1.19 and like you, I started a new character. I don't want to have to do boring, disconnected things in order to get to fun stuff later, and I'm sorry but saving up leves for a rainy day and going out on kill parties, with the spare sidequest here and there (which is basically just another leve, let's be honest) is not fun to me. Immersion, especially early on for me is totally barren and vacant. And I'm not a hater. I wanted to love this game. But it's just not interesting, fun, or immersive to me.

Maybe that's my fault? I prefer a more sandpark deal. I guess our mileage may vary.


I'm not saying you aren't entitled to your opinion. What I'm saying is that if you haven't bothered to TRY the new content, you can't talk about the lack of immersion of it. That is why your argument is invalid. Sorry to say, but pretty much every MMO I've played lacks content in low levels. That's kind of the point of the low levels. You learn the combat system, you learn the UI, you learn where stuff is, then when you get to a higher level you try out the other content. I mean, if you're too impatient to make it to level 15 (it takes about 2 hours or so) to try out a dungeon, or ****, even just do the main storyline quests that you can start at level ONE, then clearly this isn't the game for you.
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#204 Oct 20 2011 at 12:05 PM Rating: Good
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BartelX wrote:
hexaemeron wrote:
BartelX wrote:
hexaemeron wrote:
BartelX wrote:
hexaemeron wrote:
Where's the immersion in just going on animal genocide runs over and over and over again? There is no impact on the world at large from anything you do. There is no greater understanding of the people or the places.


Right, because it's not like every other freakin MMO in existence allows you to go on animal genocide runs to level up. Have you even bothered trying to dungeons they've put in, or the massive plethora of quests they've added, or the GC content, or caravans, or... I think you get the point. I think you just see what you want to see in the game and regardless of what other people tell you there is it just won't be good enough for you. And honestly, that's fine. Don't play the game. But don't come on here and talk about a "lack of immersion" when it's abundantly clear you've done NOTHING to immerse yourself in the game. You're looking for excuses, and I think it's rather pathetic.

edit: just to clarify, I'm not saying this is the most immersive game ever created. Far from it. But to say it completely lacks any immersion is absolutely not true.


Edited, Oct 20th 2011 1:15pm by BartelX


My my, that was awfully invective of you. First off, I suppose it's debateable whether there's a difference between an ongoing story arc for why some NPC might need 10 wolf pelts versus "There is no reason these animals must die other than you need to level up."

I suppose I can concede that. But personally, I like the idea that I'm a part of a larger story, contributing in a reasonable organic way. Killing 10,000 doblyns to get to 50... really wasn't organic to me, you know?


Nope, hence why I stopped playing last February and just came back about a month ago. And you know what I found out? There is a heck of a lot more immersive content now than there was in February, go figure! It's not doblyn fantasy anymore like it used to be, and a comment like that just proves to me that you clearly have NOT tried out much of the new content yet. And if that's the case, it pretty much invalidates your argument of a lack of immersion.


No, it doesn't invalidate anything because it's my opinion. I've logged in to 1.18 and 1.19 and like you, I started a new character. I don't want to have to do boring, disconnected things in order to get to fun stuff later, and I'm sorry but saving up leves for a rainy day and going out on kill parties, with the spare sidequest here and there (which is basically just another leve, let's be honest) is not fun to me. Immersion, especially early on for me is totally barren and vacant. And I'm not a hater. I wanted to love this game. But it's just not interesting, fun, or immersive to me.

Maybe that's my fault? I prefer a more sandpark deal. I guess our mileage may vary.


I'm not saying you aren't entitled to your opinion. What I'm saying is that if you haven't bothered to TRY the new content, you can't talk about the lack of immersion of it. That is why your argument is invalid. Sorry to say, but pretty much every MMO I've played lacks content in low levels. That's kind of the point of the low levels. You learn the combat system, you learn the UI, you learn where stuff is, then when you get to a higher level you try out the other content. I mean, if you're too impatient to make it to level 15 (it takes about 2 hours or so) to try out a dungeon, or ****, even just do the main storyline quests that you can start at level ONE, then clearly this isn't the game for you.


Lacks content, yes. Is completely bereft of it for the first 15-20 levels? No.
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#205 Oct 20 2011 at 12:29 PM Rating: Default
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hexaemeron wrote:

Lacks content, yes. Is completely bereft of it for the first 15-20 levels? No.


XIV does intact have content 1-20, it mainly revolves around the basic mechanic. There are quests in that range that give you both exp and items. The story quest picks up, and you get introduced to NPC's of interest. At 25 you can pick up GC and further quests. As well as first dungeon at 25. In relation to what the game was and with it is now it has more then you give it credit.


PS: please quote last post only, don't think anyone wants to scroll through a quote train.


Edited, Oct 20th 2011 2:33pm by TwiddleDee
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#206 Oct 20 2011 at 12:32 PM Rating: Decent
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hexaemeron wrote:
Lacks content, yes. Is completely bereft of it for the first 15-20 levels? No.


And once again you prove just how little of a chance you actually gave it... which is fine, that's your choice. But don't expect me to take your argument seriously when you don't even have a clue what you are talking about. ^^
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#207 Oct 20 2011 at 12:33 PM Rating: Good
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TwiddleDee wrote:
hexaemeron wrote:

Lacks content, yes. Is completely bereft of it for the first 15-20 levels? No.


XIV does intact have content 1-20, it mainly revolves around the basic mechanic. There are quests in that range that give you both exp and items. The story quest picks up, and you get introduced to NPC's of interest. At 25 you can pick up GC and further quests. As well as first dungeon at 25. In relation to what the game was and with it is now it has more then you give it credit.


Cutscenes aren't really content, per se. I mean, I'm -all- about story (Hello, 4th pillar), but why should I grind/leve for 5 levels, then 10 and then 15 to get to the first dungeon?

You want new players to be drawn into the world (immersion, again) and be intrigued by it, not make them prove themselves worthy of a cutscene from bland, punishing game tactics.
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#208 Oct 20 2011 at 12:33 PM Rating: Good
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BartelX wrote:
hexaemeron wrote:
Lacks content, yes. Is completely bereft of it for the first 15-20 levels? No.


And once again you prove just how little of a chance you actually gave it... which is fine, that's your choice. But don't expect me to take your argument seriously when you don't even have a clue what you are talking about. ^^


That's fine. I'm sure I can find a support group to cry to because you don't find my opinion valid.
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#209 Oct 20 2011 at 12:35 PM Rating: Decent
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hexaemeron wrote:
BartelX wrote:
hexaemeron wrote:
Lacks content, yes. Is completely bereft of it for the first 15-20 levels? No.


And once again you prove just how little of a chance you actually gave it... which is fine, that's your choice. But don't expect me to take your argument seriously when you don't even have a clue what you are talking about. ^^


That's fine. I'm sure I can find a support group to cry to because you don't find my opinion valid.


It's not an opinion when you don't try it out. It's being ignorant... and trolling to be completely honest.

Edited, Oct 20th 2011 2:36pm by BartelX
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#210 Oct 20 2011 at 12:40 PM Rating: Default
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hexaemeron wrote:
Cutscenes aren't really content, per se. I mean, I'm -all- about story (Hello, 4th pillar), but why should I grind/leve for 5 levels, then 10 and then 15 to get to the first dungeon?

You want new players to be drawn into the world (immersion, again) and be intrigued by it, not make them prove themselves worthy of a cutscene from bland, punishing game tactics.


So what you are saying is you want a game were you make a character, and in the first 5min you can go dungeon/story exploring before you can tell the *** from the face on your character? Umm ok.... well. I don't know what to say not to be prick here. I don't know would you like a inst 50 all classes button while at it? Maybe max gil and all NM armor/weapon drops +3 with in the first 10min of game play?
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#211 Oct 20 2011 at 12:42 PM Rating: Good
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BartelX wrote:
hexaemeron wrote:
BartelX wrote:
hexaemeron wrote:
Lacks content, yes. Is completely bereft of it for the first 15-20 levels? No.


And once again you prove just how little of a chance you actually gave it... which is fine, that's your choice. But don't expect me to take your argument seriously when you don't even have a clue what you are talking about. ^^


That's fine. I'm sure I can find a support group to cry to because you don't find my opinion valid.


It's not an opinion when you don't try it out. It's being ignorant... and trolling to be completely honest.

Edited, Oct 20th 2011 2:36pm by BartelX


Okay, clearly we're having a disconnect here, so let me try to clarify my points. Is there an overarching storyline directly connected to what you are doing (leves, grinding) at any time before level 20?

Regardless of the sidequests and cutscenes, there is nothing contributing to the OVERALL STORYLINE while grinding mobs and waiting at least 5 levels for a cutscene where you may or may not run around the world for said scene.

If I wanted to, could I level to the first dungeon at 15 on sidequests? Nope.

Does this make it clearer for you now?
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#212 Oct 20 2011 at 12:45 PM Rating: Decent
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hexaemeron wrote:
If I wanted to, could I level to the first dungeon at 15 on sidequests? Nope.

Does this make it clearer for you now?


Go play WoW or Rift you only level vie quests. Rift you'll be 55 in 2 weeks, have full raid armor in 2months and you'll quit a weak after. Best of luck. Final Fantasy has been based on PARTY/GROUP from FF I, and you obviously want a game were player/community interaction is not the corner stone. It's simple at this point that FFXIV is not for you. Accept it, move on and have fun else were. When i pay for a move and i dislike it i get up and leave, i don't sit in the cinema yelling and complaining it's bad. One it's pointless, and two it just bugs the people that do in fact watch and like the movie.


Edited, Oct 20th 2011 2:50pm by TwiddleDee
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#213 Oct 20 2011 at 12:45 PM Rating: Good
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TwiddleDee wrote:
hexaemeron wrote:
Cutscenes aren't really content, per se. I mean, I'm -all- about story (Hello, 4th pillar), but why should I grind/leve for 5 levels, then 10 and then 15 to get to the first dungeon?

You want new players to be drawn into the world (immersion, again) and be intrigued by it, not make them prove themselves worthy of a cutscene from bland, punishing game tactics.


So what you are saying is you want a game were you make a character, and in the first 5min you can go dungeon/story exploring before you can tell the *** from the face on your character? Umm ok.... well. I don't know what to say not to be prick here. I don't know would you like a inst 50 all classes button while at it? Maybe max gil and all NM armor/weapon drops +3 with in the first 10min of game play?


I forgot how inclusive and narrow-minded FF people are with respect to other games. No wonder some of you are clearly missing my point. I'm saying that there should be a REASON for everything I'm doing that isn't "because I need to get to level X".

Most Western MMOs flesh out an actual narrative with the quests they offer, so your view of the world and its people deepens as you progress. I don't want to put on Netflix while I'm crafting or grinding mobs. How is that interesting?
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#214 Oct 20 2011 at 12:46 PM Rating: Good
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TwiddleDee wrote:
hexaemeron wrote:
If I wanted to, could I level to the first dungeon at 15 on sidequests? Nope.

Does this make it clearer for you now?


Go play WoW or Rift you only level vie quests. Rift you'll be 55 in 2 weeks, have full raid armor in 2months and you'll quit a weak after. Best of luck.


..Thank you for proving my point. ;)
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#215 Oct 20 2011 at 12:50 PM Rating: Decent
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hexaemeron wrote:
Okay, clearly we're having a disconnect here, so let me try to clarify my points. Is there an overarching storyline directly connected to what you are doing (leves, grinding) at any time before level 20?

Regardless of the sidequests and cutscenes, there is nothing contributing to the OVERALL STORYLINE while grinding mobs and waiting at least 5 levels for a cutscene where you may or may not run around the world for said scene.

If I wanted to, could I level to the first dungeon at 15 on sidequests? Nope.

Does this make it clearer for you now?


Yep, there is an overall storyline. It's called the main storyline, and it starts at level 1. Doing JUST that and sidequests, you could make it to level 10. If you throw in the killing of some random mobs and perhaps a leve or 2... you know, what EVERY MMO IN EXISTENCE has, you can make it to 15 quite easily. Or, if you explore and travel to the other cities you can *GASP* pick up more sidequests and get even farther! It's amazing how those kinds of things work isn't it?

Listen, clearly you have your perogative, and that is to say that the game has no content at low levels. Unfortunately, that's a downright lie and an unbelievably ignorant comment based on what I can only assume is you trying the game out for 15 minutes and giving up because you have no clue what you are trying to do. It's not my fault or SE's fault that you don't understand what there is to do or how to do it. There's plenty of crap to do, and the levels go by fast enough that reaching 15 is a piece of cake. I don't know if it's just too tough for you or you're too close-minded to realize there are many avenues to level, but whatever the reason, talking in extremes just make you look foolish.



Edited, Oct 20th 2011 2:51pm by BartelX
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#216 Oct 20 2011 at 12:53 PM Rating: Decent
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hexaemeron wrote:
TwiddleDee wrote:
hexaemeron wrote:
If I wanted to, could I level to the first dungeon at 15 on sidequests? Nope.

Does this make it clearer for you now?


Go play WoW or Rift you only level vie quests. Rift you'll be 55 in 2 weeks, have full raid armor in 2months and you'll quit a weak after. Best of luck.


..Thank you for proving my point. ;)


So wait, your point was that you want shallow gameplay as long as it gets you to endgame fast? Wow, I'm glad you're not playing. The game is better off without you.
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#217 Oct 20 2011 at 1:04 PM Rating: Good
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TwiddleDee wrote:
hexaemeron wrote:
If I wanted to, could I level to the first dungeon at 15 on sidequests? Nope.

Does this make it clearer for you now?


Go play WoW or Rift you only level vie quests. Rift you'll be 55 in 2 weeks, have full raid armor in 2months and you'll quit a weak after. Best of luck. Final Fantasy has been based on PARTY/GROUP from FF I, and you obviously want a game were player/community interaction is not the corner stone. It's simple at this point that FFXIV is not for you. Accept it, move on and have fun else were. When i pay for a move and i dislike it i get up and leave, i don't sit in the cinema yelling and complaining it's bad. One it's pointless, and two it just bugs the people that do in fact watch and like the movie.


Edited, Oct 20th 2011 2:50pm by TwiddleDee


Or play ffxiv, get to max in 1-2 weeks and then have absolutely nothing to do other then wait for the next patch at a glacier pace. Way to prove a point. Ffxiv has one dungeon at 50? Well rift has 10 5 man 3 10 man and 3 20 main....and you always complain about rift/ wow on this forum. Yet you call it pointless.... you truly are the town idiot.
#218 Oct 20 2011 at 1:04 PM Rating: Default
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@BartelX
I don't think he actually comprehends what he is saying. All i get out of it is he wants a game were the story carries you from 1 to cap, and all you have to do is enjoy the ride. Something along the lines of "playable story"..... i don't know feels like arguing with a 5 year old at this point.
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#219 Oct 20 2011 at 1:09 PM Rating: Decent
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elicuevas wrote:
Or play ffxiv, get to max in 1-2 weeks and then have absolutely nothing to do other then wait for the next patch at a glacier pace. Way to prove a point. Ffxiv has one dungeon at 50? Well rift has 10 5 man 3 10 man and 3 20 main....and you always complain about rift/ wow on this forum. Yet you call it pointless.... you truly are the town idiot.


That's funny, I've been back a month, play a couple hours most nights, and my highest job is level 30 now. Two weeks huh? As for Rift endgame... it's an almost EXACT copy of WoW. Even the raids are unbelievably similar to WoW raids. Yes, FFXIV is lacking in endgame content and we all know the reason. They are completely redesigning the entire game. It's a work in progress. I'd much rather play a game that has some great potential for the future than a game that just steals 90% of it's identity from WoW. Maybe that's just me...
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#220 Oct 20 2011 at 1:14 PM Rating: Default
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elicuevas wrote:

Or play ffxiv, get to max in 1-2 weeks and then have absolutely nothing to do other then wait for the next patch at a glacier pace. Way to prove a point. Ffxiv has one dungeon at 50? Well rift has 10 5 man 3 10 man and 3 20 main....and you always complain about rift/ wow on this forum. Yet you call it pointless.... you truly are the town idiot.


And you miss my point... your accuracy = tripping and missing the planet under your feet. It's pointless to call out your insult and to correct you. Like trying to teach a 5 year old a life lesson, they sit, and nod, and 2min later forget every word you said and go play.
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#221 Oct 20 2011 at 2:52 PM Rating: Decent
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TwiddleDee wrote:
I'm in, really not like the market is swarming with mmo's worth it.
TERA going to be a AION copy
SWTOR will be a WoW clone
GW2 I'll get but it's f2p so no sleep lost
Diablo III is a sh*t pile now that you can sell/by items with rl money
Rift is a WoW clone

And that covers the major titles.


BartelX wrote:
That's funny, I've been back a month, play a couple hours most nights, and my highest job is level 30 now. Two weeks huh? As for Rift endgame... it's an almost EXACT copy of WoW. Even the raids are unbelievably similar to WoW raids. Yes, FFXIV is lacking in endgame content and we all know the reason. They are completely redesigning the entire game. It's a work in progress. I'd much rather play a game that has some great potential for the future than a game that just steals 90% of it's identity from WoW. Maybe that's just me...



Said this in another thread but now I found the person this works for the most. BartelX you now fit into this categorize.
Twiddledumb and bartelx will jump on saying Rift is a Wow clone and SWTOR will be a wow clone and they suck because of that. Yes FFXIV seems to be going to be a lot like WoW/Rift/SWTOR. Look at what they are doing with the game. adding jump/ added auto attack/ adding instant dungeon/ adding cross server groups/ adding bigger more flashy weapons and armor/ making questing the main way to level up.....and From this screen shot has the exact same UI as Rift if you switched 2 things around.

http://www.fohguild.org/forums/attachments/mmorpg-general-discussion/185527d1318623114-final-fantasy-xiv-screen-20shot-202011-10-14-20at-201.04.07-20pm.png

Now I dont mind companies using something that works, I think its a great idea. I just hate idiots who bash one company for doing it then praise another for doing the exact same thing.

Twiddledumb's logic= Wow creates the letter E, then Rift see that Letter E works really well so they use it also but change it just a little making it e. Twiddledumb complain that Rift ripped it off and so he will never play it and it sucks and unoriginal. FFXIV sees letter E is working great so they use it but also make a little change Ǝ. Now Twiddledumb sees this and is awe struck at the awesomeness which is FFXIV and there infinite wisdom. He also feels they should be rewarded the Nobel prize for this new invention. Same goes for bartel you say rift raiding is like wow... yet the ifrit fight is like any raid encounter i have done in WOW or Rift.

Please prove me wrong other wise.

FFXIV obliviously Rift clone....*his logic being used here*
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/eli809/FFXIV_2.jpg
This looks like concept art for either of these dungeons.
http://media.curse.com/CommunityServer.Components.PostAttachments/00/00/79/36/28/Rift%20Darkening%20Deeps%2002.jpg
http://www.creativeuncut.com/gallery-16/art/rift-deepstrike-mines.jpg
and there is the concept art for another rift dungeon.





Edited, Oct 20th 2011 5:00pm by elicuevas
#222 Oct 20 2011 at 3:01 PM Rating: Good
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TwiddleDee wrote:
@BartelX
I don't think he actually comprehends what he is saying. All i get out of it is he wants a game were the story carries you from 1 to cap, and all you have to do is enjoy the ride. Something along the lines of "playable story"..... i don't know feels like arguing with a 5 year old at this point.


No. I want a game whose story and setting engage me at every point along the way because I don't WANT to rush to endgame. THAT'S the point.
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#223 Oct 20 2011 at 4:29 PM Rating: Decent
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hexaemeron wrote:
TwiddleDee wrote:
hexaemeron wrote:
If I wanted to, could I level to the first dungeon at 15 on sidequests? Nope.

Does this make it clearer for you now?


Go play WoW or Rift you only level vie quests. Rift you'll be 55 in 2 weeks, have full raid armor in 2months and you'll quit a weak after. Best of luck.


..Thank you for proving my point. ;)


hexaemeron wrote:
TwiddleDee wrote:
@BartelX
I don't think he actually comprehends what he is saying. All i get out of it is he wants a game were the story carries you from 1 to cap, and all you have to do is enjoy the ride. Something along the lines of "playable story"..... i don't know feels like arguing with a 5 year old at this point.


No. I want a game whose story and setting engage me at every point along the way because I don't WANT to rush to endgame. THAT'S the point.


Um, what? You contradict yourself at literally every turn. You want sidequests to level... someone says go play WoW or Rift where that's all you do, you say that proves your point. Yet those sidequests are all a rehash of the SAME **** AS LEVES OR FFXIV SIDEQUESTS. Your logic is unbelievably flawed.
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#224 Oct 20 2011 at 4:37 PM Rating: Good
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BartelX wrote:
hexaemeron wrote:
TwiddleDee wrote:
hexaemeron wrote:
If I wanted to, could I level to the first dungeon at 15 on sidequests? Nope.

Does this make it clearer for you now?


Go play WoW or Rift you only level vie quests. Rift you'll be 55 in 2 weeks, have full raid armor in 2months and you'll quit a weak after. Best of luck.


..Thank you for proving my point. ;)


hexaemeron wrote:
TwiddleDee wrote:
@BartelX
I don't think he actually comprehends what he is saying. All i get out of it is he wants a game were the story carries you from 1 to cap, and all you have to do is enjoy the ride. Something along the lines of "playable story"..... i don't know feels like arguing with a 5 year old at this point.


No. I want a game whose story and setting engage me at every point along the way because I don't WANT to rush to endgame. THAT'S the point.


Um, what? You contradict yourself at literally every turn. You want sidequests to level... someone says go play WoW or Rift where that's all you do, you say that proves your point. Yet those sidequests are all a rehash of the SAME sh*t AS LEVES OR FFXIV SIDEQUESTS. Your logic is unbelievably flawed.


Sigh... Okay, I can see I need to put on my educator hat and walk you A to B to C here. That's fine. Let's take a text walk, shall we?

- I want to feel immersed in a world's story and invested in its people, its culture, history, etc. To follow memorable personalities and events in an epic and enjoyable fashion.

- Most Western games use numerous overlapping quest arcs to accomplish this. The many stories help contribute to the overall storyline thrust.

- In FFXIV, this. does. not. happen. You get treated to a cutscene every 5-7 levels for that many levels of leve/mob grinds, which in of themselves, contribute NOTHING to the overall world at large. It's vacant, hollow "content". Throw in an endgame instance, an isolated boss fight, some NMs with dated crafting mats, and 1 instance at 15 and one at 25. So if you want something different, you get to grind the instances. Hooray for a naked grind, once again.

- This is why I do not like FFXIV as presented. It's not contradictory at all. If I have to make my own fun, then the developers have failed because I expect to be interactively entertained.

Ya dig, son?
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#225 Oct 20 2011 at 5:04 PM Rating: Default
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OMG Hex, just don't play. I don't understand the people who such a vested interest in convincing others not to play. I disliked the game at launch, so shortly after I left. I didn't hang around these boards all day to convince others to quit playing.

After 1.18 and 1.19 I gave the game another shot and have been enjoying it, so I'm playing. I post on these boards about the game. I don't go to every other MMO I am choosing not to play and make constant posts why I didn't choose their game.

TLDR: Get a life.
#226 Oct 20 2011 at 5:06 PM Rating: Good
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Vawn43 wrote:
OMG Hex, just don't play. I don't understand the people who such a vested interest in convincing others not to play. I disliked the game at launch, so shortly after I left. I didn't hang around these boards all day to convince others to quit playing.

After 1.18 and 1.19 I gave the game another shot and have been enjoying it, so I'm playing. I post on these boards about the game. I don't go to every other MMO I am choosing not to play and make constant posts why I didn't choose their game.

TLDR: Get a life.


I was just clarifying my points. I'm having a ball in LOTRO. :D
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#227BartelX, Posted: Oct 20 2011 at 5:15 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) couldn't have said it better myself. Smiley: lol
#228 Oct 20 2011 at 5:16 PM Rating: Default
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elicuevas wrote:

Please prove me wrong other wise.


Ok I'll take you challenge and counter with "Why?". Why should i take the time to pull out the good old FACTS for some one who will a) not get them, b) has no idea of what he's talking about, c) only trolls forums of a game he does not play, and d) has the understanding of a 5 year old (though probably a 50year old virgin)?

With that i leave you be believe what ever you want to, as i go play XIV. A game that i actually enjoy.
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#229BartelX, Posted: Oct 20 2011 at 5:18 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I think I just did. Thanks for playing. ^^
#230 Oct 20 2011 at 5:24 PM Rating: Decent
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TwiddleDee wrote:
elicuevas wrote:

Please prove me wrong other wise.


Ok I'll take you challenge and counter with "Why?". Why should i take the time to pull out the good old FACTS for some one who will a) not get them, b) has no idea of what he's talking about, c) only trolls forums of a game he does not play, and d) has the understanding of a 5 year old (though probably a 50year old virgin)?

With that i leave you be believe what ever you want to, as i go play XIV. A game that i actually enjoy.


32 year old Bay Area *** dude, fyi.
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#231 Oct 20 2011 at 5:59 PM Rating: Decent
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TwiddleDee wrote:
elicuevas wrote:

Please prove me wrong other wise.


Ok I'll take you challenge and counter with "Why?". Why should i take the time to pull out the good old FACTS for some one who will a) not get them, b) has no idea of what he's talking about, c) only trolls forums of a game he does not play, and d) has the understanding of a 5 year old (though probably a 50year old virgin)?

With that i leave you be believe what ever you want to, as i go play XIV. A game that i actually enjoy.


Ouch how did you know I was 50 years old? I always believe people that try too attack in that manner are just reflecting what they actually are. Let's see you post a picture of yourself! I bet you are quiet the lady killer lol
#232 Oct 20 2011 at 10:01 PM Rating: Default
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elicuevas wrote:
TwiddleDee wrote:
elicuevas wrote:

Please prove me wrong other wise.


Ok I'll take you challenge and counter with "Why?". Why should i take the time to pull out the good old FACTS for some one who will a) not get them, b) has no idea of what he's talking about, c) only trolls forums of a game he does not play, and d) has the understanding of a 5 year old (though probably a 50year old virgin)?

With that i leave you be believe what ever you want to, as i go play XIV. A game that i actually enjoy.


Ouch how did you know I was 50 years old? I always believe people that try too attack in that manner are just reflecting what they actually are. Let's see you post a picture of yourself! I bet you are quiet the lady killer lol


Male 23 years old, white. As for my pick I'll see what i can do.
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#233 Oct 20 2011 at 10:10 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:

So what you are saying is you want a game were you make a character, and in the first 5min you can go dungeon/story exploring before you can tell the *** from the face on your character? Umm ok.... well. I don't know what to say not to be prick here. I don't know would you like a inst 50 all classes button while at it? Maybe max gil and all NM armor/weapon drops +3 with in the first 10min of game play?


GW2 pretty much does that in a stronger and more interesting manner within the first 15-20 mins or so. I wouldn't really call the idea farfetched or worth jumping on someone about it.
#234 Oct 20 2011 at 10:15 PM Rating: Good
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TwiddleDee wrote:
elicuevas wrote:
TwiddleDee wrote:
elicuevas wrote:

Please prove me wrong other wise.


Ok I'll take you challenge and counter with "Why?". Why should i take the time to pull out the good old FACTS for some one who will a) not get them, b) has no idea of what he's talking about, c) only trolls forums of a game he does not play, and d) has the understanding of a 5 year old (though probably a 50year old virgin)?

With that i leave you be believe what ever you want to, as i go play XIV. A game that i actually enjoy.


Ouch how did you know I was 50 years old? I always believe people that try too attack in that manner are just reflecting what they actually are. Let's see you post a picture of yourself! I bet you are quiet the lady killer lol


Male 23 years old, white. As for my pick I'll see what i can do.


T-tits or GTFO...? o_O
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#235 Oct 20 2011 at 11:03 PM Rating: Decent
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TwiddleDee wrote:
d) has the understanding of a 5 year old (though probably a 50year old virgin)?


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/eli809/1438.jpg

TwiddleDee wrote:
Male 23 years old, white. As for my pick I'll see what i can do.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/eli809/1438-1.jpg
#236 Oct 21 2011 at 12:50 AM Rating: Excellent
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Or play ffxiv, get to max in 1-2 weeks and then have absolutely nothing to do other then wait for the next patch at a glacier pace. Way to prove a point. Ffxiv has one dungeon at 50? Well rift has 10 5 man 3 10 man and 3 20 main....and you always complain about rift/ wow on this forum. Yet you call it pointless.... you truly are the town idiot.


I've been playing since launch, and I just dinged Rank 49 on gladiator! One more level and I'll have my first job at cap!

So yeah, your guess about getting to max level taking one or two weeks was a little off. Perhaps you could do that if you had absolutely NOTHING else to do, and if you ignored everything else there is to do in the game, but why on earth would you want to do that?

And if you still haven't found the overarching storyline yet, maybe you need to chat with more of the NPCs who have the big "?" over their heads. There's a pretty intense storyline waiting for you to find it. This storyline provides plenty of incentive to get out and strengthen our characters. That, and being a good linkshell member is a good enough reason to spend some additional time leveling up.
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#237 Oct 21 2011 at 1:18 AM Rating: Decent
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BartelX wrote:
hexaemeron wrote:
BartelX wrote:
hexaemeron wrote:
BartelX wrote:
hexaemeron wrote:
Where's the immersion in just going on animal genocide runs over and over and over again? There is no impact on the world at large from anything you do. There is no greater understanding of the people or the places.


Right, because it's not like every other freakin MMO in existence allows you to go on animal genocide runs to level up. Have you even bothered trying to dungeons they've put in, or the massive plethora of quests they've added, or the GC content, or caravans, or... I think you get the point. I think you just see what you want to see in the game and regardless of what other people tell you there is it just won't be good enough for you. And honestly, that's fine. Don't play the game. But don't come on here and talk about a "lack of immersion" when it's abundantly clear you've done NOTHING to immerse yourself in the game. You're looking for excuses, and I think it's rather pathetic.

edit: just to clarify, I'm not saying this is the most immersive game ever created. Far from it. But to say it completely lacks any immersion is absolutely not true.


Edited, Oct 20th 2011 1:15pm by BartelX


My my, that was awfully invective of you. First off, I suppose it's debateable whether there's a difference between an ongoing story arc for why some NPC might need 10 wolf pelts versus "There is no reason these animals must die other than you need to level up."

I suppose I can concede that. But personally, I like the idea that I'm a part of a larger story, contributing in a reasonable organic way. Killing 10,000 doblyns to get to 50... really wasn't organic to me, you know?


Nope, hence why I stopped playing last February and just came back about a month ago. And you know what I found out? There is a heck of a lot more immersive content now than there was in February, go figure! It's not doblyn fantasy anymore like it used to be, and a comment like that just proves to me that you clearly have NOT tried out much of the new content yet. And if that's the case, it pretty much invalidates your argument of a lack of immersion.


No, it doesn't invalidate anything because it's my opinion. I've logged in to 1.18 and 1.19 and like you, I started a new character. I don't want to have to do boring, disconnected things in order to get to fun stuff later, and I'm sorry but saving up leves for a rainy day and going out on kill parties, with the spare sidequest here and there (which is basically just another leve, let's be honest) is not fun to me. Immersion, especially early on for me is totally barren and vacant. And I'm not a hater. I wanted to love this game. But it's just not interesting, fun, or immersive to me.

Maybe that's my fault? I prefer a more sandpark deal. I guess our mileage may vary.


I'm not saying you aren't entitled to your opinion. What I'm saying is that if you haven't bothered to TRY the new content, you can't talk about the lack of immersion of it. That is why your argument is invalid. Sorry to say, but pretty much every MMO I've played lacks content in low levels. That's kind of the point of the low levels. You learn the combat system, you learn the UI, you learn where stuff is, then when you get to a higher level you try out the other content. I mean, if you're too impatient to make it to level 15 (it takes about 2 hours or so) to try out a dungeon, or ****, even just do the main storyline quests that you can start at level ONE, then clearly this isn't the game for you.


False! Only FFXIV has no content on the lower levels, other MMOS have tons of it compared to FFXIV, **** wow has entire quest lines in each zone, from lvl 1-85.
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#238 Oct 21 2011 at 2:20 AM Rating: Decent
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Ostia wrote:
False! Only FFXIV has no content on the lower levels, other MMOS have tons of it compared to FFXIV, **** wow has entire quest lines in each zone, from lvl 1-85.


I'm not saying this game doesn't have problems. But I am saying I don't consider 1500+ reasons to farm boar livers to be a benchmark.
#239 Oct 21 2011 at 4:20 AM Rating: Decent
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elicuevas wrote:
TwiddleDee wrote:
d) has the understanding of a 5 year old (though probably a 50year old virgin)?


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/eli809/1438.jpg

TwiddleDee wrote:
Male 23 years old, white. As for my pick I'll see what i can do.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/eli809/1438-1.jpg



WTF? How did you find a photo of me?
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#240 Oct 21 2011 at 6:16 AM Rating: Good
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If anyone is looking for immersion on a level beyond that of what they've seen in every MMO for the last 10 years, then they probably shouldn't be playing MMO's, and should stick to console & single-player RPG-type games from reputable developers like Bioware and Blizzard.

As for actual storytelling and storyline/lore immersion, there are a few MMO's that come to mind that actually succeed at a modern level seamlessly into the type of game they are, and two of them are Final Fantasy titles. Anyone who consider's WoW/Rift style storytelling as immersion, I really don't know where you get that from. While Warcraft has a reputable lore history through multiple mediums...if you haven't read any of the books or played the previous single player iterations of the series...WoW presents absolutely nothing in the game that helps with directly addressing this information to you.

Same with RIFT, as while Trion wrote a considerable lore backstory to compliment the game, unless you seek it out, you will not find it in your normal game play. Quests are delivered on a boring time-consuming dialog frame and cutscenes are few and far between.

FFXIV does the same thing FFXI achieved that made it popular, it tells a story to you while you play. Every plot quest has a cutscene. Let me reiterate that...every plot quest has a cutscene. SE has also given us Leves and Side quests...whereas Leves balance out the grind portion of quests that other MMO's force you to do as the main solo leveling path, and a lot of the side quests provide nice cutscenes as well. I've been back for about 2 weeks, and I've barely had time to do a dozen leves as all I've been doing is storyline & sidequests with cutscenes. Everywhere I go to finish one, I find two more. Yesterday I stumbled into a hidden quest hub in Central Thanalan that I wouldn't have found unless I had done the quest that led me there, and at this hub I found numerous quest giving NPC's. These are not Leves...these are dialog & cutscene driven side quests.

I think that's the point supporters are trying to make here. You don't have to seek out the lore & story telling here like you do in other MMO's. FFXIV is much different than other MMO's in this aspect. Now I'm not saying FFXIV is better, I'm just saying it's different. The content is there, the story is there, and you hardly even have to look for it. You don't have to read book collections you seek out and pick up/open like in RIFT, you don't have to buy other games or books to read like in Warcraft.

And this is coming from someone who played WoW for multiple years, raided in that game for years, wasted tons of time in WoW. Also played RIFT to max level and I've raided in that game. I have considerable experience with all the content in all the games I've mentioned...not necessarily more than others here, but enough to be confident in my ramblings.
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#241 Oct 21 2011 at 6:29 AM Rating: Excellent
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hexaemeron wrote:

32 year old Bay Area *** dude, fyi.


So we definitely have different tastes....

Ryneguy wrote:

If anyone is looking for immersion on a level beyond that of what they've seen in every MMO for the last 10 years, then they probably shouldn't be playing MMO's, and should stick to console & single-player RPG-type games from reputable developers like Bioware and Blizzard.


I don't agree with this. Immersion seems to be a very polarizing topic. Those who want it, put a lot of stock in it. The rest who don't, think the first group is a bunch of loons.

But, when I think back to when I started playing FFXI (and really most of my 7 years there), Vana'diel really felt like a living, breathing world. This was a form of immersion that could only be achieved in an online world. Sure an offline game can get your "immersed" in a good story or environments, but it isn't the same sensation.

That being said, FFXI's feeling of immersion came at a price. For example, the way airships worked in that game. At any moment the Jeuno->Bastok airship is in a particular location for everyone. When I'm traveling through Rolanberry Fields and look up and see the airship, I know there are players really riding that airship. When I see it land in Bastok, those players are really landing at that moment.

Over the years as XI became more "user friendly", more and more shortcuts were added. These were good things, in my opinion, but came at a cost. When I started and the only way I knew to get to Selbina from San d'Oria was to run, I really felt far from home once I got there. The near east was a world away when I first made it to Whitegate, but after using the instant teleportation NPC a dozen times, it might of well of been the same zone.

Anyway, I'm rambling now. My point was, I find immersion an important aspect of an MMO, but I understand it is very difficult to pull off without making the game unplayable. Given the choice between a lot of immersion and less time doing repetitive tasks, I'll gladly give up some immersion. However, I still believe immersion is an important secondary goal to strive for.

Edited, Oct 21st 2011 8:44am by Vawn43
#242 Oct 21 2011 at 7:59 AM Rating: Default
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elicuevas wrote:
TwiddleDee wrote:
d) has the understanding of a 5 year old (though probably a 50year old virgin)?


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/eli809/1438.jpg

TwiddleDee wrote:
Male 23 years old, white. As for my pick I'll see what i can do.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/eli809/1438-1.jpg


Here !!!
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#243BartelX, Posted: Oct 21 2011 at 8:28 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) This was a joke right? Are you honestly considering the boring, repetitive kill and gather quests of WoW as good low level content? That's like saying guildleves are impressive content. Those quests do NOTHING to immerse you in the story. Literally the only difference between them and guildleves is that there is a different NPC for some of them. And heck, at least the guildleves require you to think a bit on how to approach encounters and also how difficult you want it to be instead of just mindlessly slaughtering 10 pigs, bears, spiders, etc.
#244 Oct 21 2011 at 8:36 AM Rating: Good
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Vawn43 wrote:
hexaemeron wrote:

32 year old Bay Area *** dude, fyi.


So we definitely have different tastes....

Ryneguy wrote:

If anyone is looking for immersion on a level beyond that of what they've seen in every MMO for the last 10 years, then they probably shouldn't be playing MMO's, and should stick to console & single-player RPG-type games from reputable developers like Bioware and Blizzard.


I don't agree with this. Immersion seems to be a very polarizing topic. Those who want it, put a lot of stock in it. The rest who don't, think the first group is a bunch of loons.

But, when I think back to when I started playing FFXI (and really most of my 7 years there), Vana'diel really felt like a living, breathing world. This was a form of immersion that could only be achieved in an online world. Sure an offline game can get your "immersed" in a good story or environments, but it isn't the same sensation.

That being said, FFXI's feeling of immersion came at a price. For example, the way airships worked in that game. At any moment the Jeuno->Bastok airship is in a particular location for everyone. When I'm traveling through Rolanberry Fields and look up and see the airship, I know there are players really riding that airship. When I see it land in Bastok, those players are really landing at that moment.

Over the years as XI became more "user friendly", more and more shortcuts were added. These were good things, in my opinion, but came at a cost. When I started and the only way I knew to get to Selbina from San d'Oria was to run, I really felt far from home once I got there. The near east was a world away when I first made it to Whitegate, but after using the instant teleportation NPC a dozen times, it might of well of been the same zone.

Anyway, I'm rambling now. My point was, I find immersion an important aspect of an MMO, but I understand it is very difficult to pull off without making the game unplayable. Given the choice between a lot of immersion and less time doing repetitive tasks, I'll gladly give up some immersion. However, I still believe immersion is an important secondary goal to strive for.

Edited, Oct 21st 2011 8:44am by Vawn43


Kinda not really what I meant...I'm on board for all the immersion game dev's can provide. I loved FFXI and a lot of the realistic aspects the game provided in terms of immersion.

What I meant, is, that the world of MMO's has changed to the extent that the minute a game gets bad press, it becomes a steep uphill climb to succeed. Because of this, developers are taking less time making strides in innovative gameplay and heavily story-driven quest systems and going the road more traveled by past successful MMO's. That's why I said anyone looking for something with "more immersion" than what we've already seen...not that I don't think Dev's should do it. ^.^;
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#245 Oct 21 2011 at 8:44 AM Rating: Excellent
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I guess we have different definitions of immersion. When I think immersion, I don't think about more storyline or cutscenes. The kind of immersion I care about is feeling like part of the game's world, alongside other real players.
#246 Oct 21 2011 at 8:58 AM Rating: Default
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I'd argue against thinking about that kind of immersion, as the players themselves pull you out of the world.

And the larger group based quests (dungeon crawls, primal fights) do provide some more group immersion, and start inviting you in at about 17.

I mean, if you're looking for PVP where you can take over zones or have a profound impact on the enviroment, a Final Fantasy game really isn't the place to go for that kind of thing. It's strictly a PVE game. The elements that made you 'feel a part of the world' in FFXI weren't exactly big draws across the board.

Siren was the only server that truly invested in Beseiged. Conquest is barely and afterthought, and Campaign is done simply because it's cheap fun leveling. None of it really provided an emmersive 'part of the pack' feel.

Old version Dynamis and other battlefield style events did that, and even when that game was 'complete' for a year, it didn't have it. But there is already group content existing here in FFXIV that is raid-style, and boss style.

I'm not sure what you're really looking for in immersion that's not already here in some shape or form, but it sounds like what you really need to do is find a linkshell that's doing the content that already existed. As far as the desire for 'more', don't we all? That's what MMO's are about, always wanting that next patch of content.
#247 Oct 21 2011 at 9:10 AM Rating: Good
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BartelX wrote:

The only low level content I've seen in WoW starts at level 10 when you can do your first dungeon... and it certainly isn't all that immersive when you consider that you can just get ported straight there.

Edited, Oct 21st 2011 10:29am by BartelX


bolded the important part. You can't really blame the game for decisions players make. Dungeon porting is there for convenience, if people want to "rob" themselves of the immersion experience of running there a few times, thats their choice.
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#248 Oct 21 2011 at 9:55 AM Rating: Default
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KujaKoF wrote:
BartelX wrote:

The only low level content I've seen in WoW starts at level 10 when you can do your first dungeon... and it certainly isn't all that immersive when you consider that you can just get ported straight there.

Edited, Oct 21st 2011 10:29am by BartelX


bolded the important part. You can't really blame the game for decisions players make. Dungeon porting is there for convenience, if people want to "rob" themselves of the immersion experience of running there a few times, thats their choice.


Decisions players make? I believe it was WoW devs that added dungeon finder into the game, not the players. I'm not saying it isn't a brilliant tool because I really think it is, but it certainly wasn't up to the players to eliminate the traveling to dungeons. And yes I realize you CAN still travel to the dungeons... but who actually does that?

Edited, Oct 21st 2011 11:58am by BartelX
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#249 Oct 21 2011 at 10:23 AM Rating: Default
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BartelX wrote:
KujaKoF wrote:
BartelX wrote:

The only low level content I've seen in WoW starts at level 10 when you can do your first dungeon... and it certainly isn't all that immersive when you consider that you can just get ported straight there.

Edited, Oct 21st 2011 10:29am by BartelX


bolded the important part. You can't really blame the game for decisions players make. Dungeon porting is there for convenience, if people want to "rob" themselves of the immersion experience of running there a few times, thats their choice.


Decisions players make? I believe it was WoW devs that added dungeon finder into the game, not the players. I'm not saying it isn't a brilliant tool because I really think it is, but it certainly wasn't up to the players to eliminate the traveling to dungeons. And yes I realize you CAN still travel to the dungeons... but who actually does that?

Edited, Oct 21st 2011 11:58am by BartelX


That's not my problem, if you wanna walk to the dungeon and have all your little immersion getting there, cool with me, i'll just port there and be done with it, is not like the dungeon changes, each time you go to it or anything, plus to unlock said dungeon, you have to actually go there walking once, so you get all the immersion of going to it, then later if you wanna port, you can, is an option, i'm all for options.
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#250 Oct 21 2011 at 10:49 AM Rating: Decent
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Ostia wrote:
BartelX wrote:
KujaKoF wrote:
BartelX wrote:

The only low level content I've seen in WoW starts at level 10 when you can do your first dungeon... and it certainly isn't all that immersive when you consider that you can just get ported straight there.

Edited, Oct 21st 2011 10:29am by BartelX


bolded the important part. You can't really blame the game for decisions players make. Dungeon porting is there for convenience, if people want to "rob" themselves of the immersion experience of running there a few times, thats their choice.


Decisions players make? I believe it was WoW devs that added dungeon finder into the game, not the players. I'm not saying it isn't a brilliant tool because I really think it is, but it certainly wasn't up to the players to eliminate the traveling to dungeons. And yes I realize you CAN still travel to the dungeons... but who actually does that?

Edited, Oct 21st 2011 11:58am by BartelX


That's not my problem, if you wanna walk to the dungeon and have all your little immersion getting there, cool with me, i'll just port there and be done with it, is not like the dungeon changes, each time you go to it or anything, plus to unlock said dungeon, you have to actually go there walking once, so you get all the immersion of going to it, then later if you wanna port, you can, is an option, i'm all for options.


First off, you completely proved my point. No one does it. Second, no you don't have to walk there once to unlock it. Use the dungeon finder and you will get ported there even the first time. When I started playing WoW I did every random dungeon 1-60 and never walked to a single one.
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#251 Oct 21 2011 at 11:14 AM Rating: Default
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3,530 posts
KujaKoF wrote:
You can't really blame the game for decisions players make. Dungeon porting is there for convenience, if people want to "rob" themselves of the immersion experience of running there a few times, thats their choice.


So if FFXIV allowed players to delete each other's characters with an in-game command, we couldn't blame the game for allowing that? We'd have to blame the players for using the command?

You can - and should - blame the game for decisions players make. If players are acting terribly while using a new "anonymous griefing feature," then devs should take that feature out of the game, they shouldn't issue bitter diatribes against the ill state of humanity and the internet. It is the game that allows those decisions to be made at all and it is the responsibility of developers to design a game with problems and effects in mind.
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