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#302 Nov 25 2011 at 10:58 AM Rating: Excellent
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TwiddleDee wrote:

you will be paying for the privilege to test a product, have your say about it's development, and come v2.0 you will be ahead of the curve.


I am going to guess that you are relatively new here. At least, your name really doesn't ring a bell as someone who has been around for the duration of this fiasco.

Let me clue you in on some important information, as I am one of the folks who was here from the start. We played during Alpha, and gave our feedback. We played during Beta, and gave our feedback. We went out and paid for CE's, and continued to give our feedback. For almost two years now, we have given feedback, ad naseum, and still the game lacks basics.

It is still not where it should be, or should have been, before we bought the box.

No, it is not worth us "paying for the privilege to test a product." I don't pay for games to have the privilege of giving feedback to the developers, and there isn't another developer on the PLANET who would have the audacity to ask such a thing of their fans. In fact, no other fanbase would even defend such a move.

I pay for games because they bring me hours of enjoyment. If FFXIV is currently bringing you hours of enjoyment, then that's wonderful. By all means, pay to play it. But do NOT sit there and try to convince the rest of to open our wallets by vomiting forth some ******** that we should be grateful for the opportunity to pay for testing this product. It's ridiculous.
#303 Nov 25 2011 at 12:34 PM Rating: Default
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Torrence wrote:
TwiddleDee wrote:

you will be paying for the privilege to test a product, have your say about it's development, and come v2.0 you will be ahead of the curve.


I am going to guess that you are relatively new here. At least, your name really doesn't ring a bell as someone who has been around for the duration of this fiasco.

Let me clue you in on some important information, as I am one of the folks who was here from the start. We played during Alpha, and gave our feedback. We played during Beta, and gave our feedback. We went out and paid for CE's, and continued to give our feedback. For almost two years now, we have given feedback, ad naseum, and still the game lacks basics.

It is still not where it should be, or should have been, before we bought the box.

No, it is not worth us "paying for the privilege to test a product." I don't pay for games to have the privilege of giving feedback to the developers, and there isn't another developer on the PLANET who would have the audacity to ask such a thing of their fans. In fact, no other fanbase would even defend such a move.

I pay for games because they bring me hours of enjoyment. If FFXIV is currently bringing you hours of enjoyment, then that's wonderful. By all means, pay to play it. But do NOT sit there and try to convince the rest of to open our wallets by vomiting forth some bullsh*t that we should be grateful for the opportunity to pay for testing this product. It's ridiculous
.


You guessed wrong i started xiv in the alpha as well, i just didn't sign up for zam till not all that long ago. However i see things quite differently, i do however understand your position on all this. And really to each his own. From start till now there's 2 ways you can view the same progress that the game has made. From Yoshi getting the project till now the game has gone 0 to 50% (% for example use only). The masses see a game that's 50% and as such give it the "it's trash" label, there's nothing wrong in seeing it as such. On the other side there's the minority that see a game that has improved by 50%, and are willing to hold of judgement until it's completed. And see no real loss in sticking around until it's finished.

AS for the "bought the box" excuse, if you played for more then 50h's you got your money's worth from that purchase. Seeing as how majority of games offer ~30h of game play. As well were YOU seem to have gotten your info wrong is SE is NOT expecting you to pay a cent. It was clearly stated that the game will stay open under subs till v2.0, and the decision of stay or go is your own.

Here's were i fail to understand the people complaining over subs, if you despise the game so why is it so hard to leave? Most people are complaining like they stand to loos something if they leave, and yet do not intend to stay. If you do not intend to pay or play why are you still around still playing still posting about a game you hate? I have had the same opinion towards may games, as many people do towards XIV. Difference being is i simply quit and moved on, not go to a fan made forum and complain the worlds unfair.

Edited, Nov 25th 2011 1:36pm by TwiddleDee
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99th paper cut, and the grain of salt.
#304 Nov 25 2011 at 3:19 PM Rating: Decent
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Twiddle, you linked the same picture I linked but there isn't any proof that it's an actual in-game screenshot. Take a close look at it and it's easy to tell that it isn't. The only reason I'd like to see the link to the interview where Yoshi says it is would be because I'd like to see if they're lying... again.

Also, you don't need to be a 'fanboy' of any of the previously mentioned games. If they are more fun to play than XIV then people are more likely to play them. Keep in mind that by the time 2.0 hits most of these games will have had a major patch as well.
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#305 Nov 25 2011 at 5:14 PM Rating: Default
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For anyone planing on quitting here's what you do... If you want to post after, feel free.
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99th paper cut, and the grain of salt.
#306 Nov 25 2011 at 5:30 PM Rating: Decent
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i have bought the game for 50 euros in January, this was my 1st "P2P" game, i forced my self to play it and learn about this game.
But i have quit the game after 15 day...

Wasted money...
why?
UI is sh*t
Too much run
playing with a xbox controller is a joke (one of the main reasons why i bough the game)
getting killed by small rats and bees :/
updates take ages
combat is sh*t
and better F2P game to waste my time with
i was expecting a FF7 like...yeah i feld like a sucker

Edited, Nov 26th 2011 12:49am by neo12
#307 Nov 25 2011 at 5:43 PM Rating: Good
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This has same screenshot and it clearly says that it is Concept Screenshot for 2.0. No mentioning in-game screenshot.


By the way, SE should do something about Client and patch. I just reinstalled the game and tried to download patches, but the 11030 error pop up because my apartment blocked the torrent. Honestly, which game companies encourage user to use Torrent?


Edited, Nov 25th 2011 6:48pm by ilwhana
#308 Nov 25 2011 at 9:19 PM Rating: Decent
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Yeah, I don't know if that dude was just ************ for the sake of ************* but if he'd actually taken the time to look at the image he probably would've realized that it isn't a screencap from the upgraded graphics engine. It probably isn't even done yet.

ilwhana wrote:
Honestly, which game companies encourage user to use Torrent?

The XIV community will argue to the death about what is considered an 'exploit' but somehow using torrents to download the client, which is against the ToS, is somehow ok... /facepalm

____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#309 Nov 26 2011 at 12:57 AM Rating: Decent
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ilwhana wrote:
This has same screenshot and it clearly says that it is Concept Screenshot for 2.0. No mentioning in-game screenshot.


By the way, SE should do something about Client and patch. I just reinstalled the game and tried to download patches, but the 11030 error pop up because my apartment blocked the torrent. Honestly, which game companies encourage user to use Torrent?


Edited, Nov 25th 2011 6:48pm by ilwhana


1) The screenshot is just that, it's actually a in-game screenshot of Version2.0 as it currently stands. Yoshi admitted it was real in several interview's already. First one was with game watch.

2) How did the apartment block it??? If you post some details about your connection I'm sure we can help you fix it up as best we can. Rogers (an isp in canada) blocks peer-to-peer networking routinely and even blocked wow. Might not even be your building/router/???.
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http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/story.html?story=18309
Quote:
Like Final Fantasy XI, the game specs will be extremely high for the time, but in about 5 years, an average machine can run it on max settings with little to no issues. Tanaka also expressed interest in making a benchmark program available.

FilthMcNasty wrote:
I endorse this thread.
#310 Nov 26 2011 at 3:17 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
2) How did the apartment block it??? If you post some details about your connection I'm sure we can help you fix it up as best we can. Rogers (an isp in canada) blocks peer-to-peer networking routinely and even blocked wow. Might not even be your building/router/???.



I'm here in Chicago, and I have an internet connection by a wired router of the apartment.
I have no clue how this apartment, Aqua, blocks the torrent. VPN doesn't work either.


BTW,the landlord actually mentioned to me that torrent is forbidden in this building.
#311 Nov 26 2011 at 7:47 AM Rating: Excellent
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TwiddleDee wrote:

If you do not intend to pay or play why are you still around still playing still posting about a game you hate? I have had the same opinion towards may games, as many people do towards XIV. Difference being is i simply quit and moved on, not go to a fan made forum and complain the worlds unfair.


I am still here because I enjoy the community, and have been a part of it for years upon years now. It is not for you to decide whether or not I participate in a thread.

I also do not 'hate' the game. That's a very strong word that I avoid using whenever possible. It's one of those words you can never take back once said, similar to love. I would describe my feelings towards this game as more of a disappointment, and I have quit and moved on. If you have been around as long as you claim to have been, then you should know that my posting frequency in this board has tapered off (which I am sure some are grateful for :p). Every now and again though, a topic catches my eye.

This is one such topic.

Your militant attitude is not helping your cause. Perhaps it would be well-placed if you were arguing with an inarticulate troll, but as it is... I'm not convinced and your comments border on insulting. Tread lightly.
#312 Nov 26 2011 at 9:52 AM Rating: Decent
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I can understand that people leave, especially when they have their minds set on playing new game, but I'm going to stick around, plain and simple.

Artwork doesn't impress me. We've seen interesting artwork before, but what good is that going to do when the game has all kinds of issues?

Even with what we do know now, I can only guess what the game will be like in a year from now, but I am looking forward to be a part of this upcoming journey towards the final product. They are going to make a lot of changes, and we are right in the middle of it. New areas, new gear, new enemies, new game apsects, and they wil have to balance out jobs again, and again, and again, till everything seems to be ok. Some people will be hurt (I know people who left FFXIV after the introduction of auto-attack because they liked FFXIV the way it was), others will see teh changes as a challenge, and others are happy with just about any change.

And I just think it's going to be very interesting.
#313 Nov 26 2011 at 11:43 AM Rating: Good
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Elionara wrote:
1) The screenshot is just that, it's actually a in-game screenshot of Version2.0 as it currently stands. Yoshi admitted it was real in several interview's already. First one was with game watch.


It's a concept image and not a screenshot. Look closely at the art in the background of that image. It's obvious.

If that wasn't obvious enough, consider the fact that they haven't even finished the graphics engine yet. How do you figure they generated an image from something that hasn't even been created yet?

I know that there is a lot of faith here in SE to be able to pull off the miracle of bringing XIV back from the dead, but c'mon. Really? It's been over a year now. At what point does the denial wear off?
____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#314 Nov 26 2011 at 5:31 PM Rating: Default
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
It's been over a year now. At what point does the denial wear off?


A similar question can be asked about you. When do you stop visiting the forum pages of a game you think isn't going anywhere and move on?

Cause really, opinion or not, and free world or not, the sole purpose of you stay here seems to be acting like the Cassandra of ZAM's FFXIV pages. Is it some compulsion? Cause I am sure you can seek help for this.

Imagine the time you will save if you just log out once and for all, and you can spend that time on stuff you actually like, like playing better games. Wouldn't that be great?

Btw, for the people who don't want to pay for this game and seem to rate down even the most honest opinions that cannot possibly offend anyone: you know where to find the rate down button for this post as well, right? My contribution to your pathetic little lives.
#315 Nov 26 2011 at 6:21 PM Rating: Decent
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MrMissile wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
It's been over a year now. At what point does the denial wear off?


A similar question can be asked about you. When do you stop visiting the forum pages of a game you think isn't going anywhere and move on?

Cause really, opinion or not, and free world or not, the sole purpose of you stay here seems to be acting like the Cassandra of ZAM's FFXIV pages. Is it some compulsion? Cause I am sure you can seek help for this.

Imagine the time you will save if you just log out once and for all, and you can spend that time on stuff you actually like, like playing better games. Wouldn't that be great?

Btw, for the people who don't want to pay for this game and seem to rate down even the most honest opinions that cannot possibly offend anyone: you know where to find the rate down button for this post as well, right? My contribution to your pathetic little lives.


I'm just curious why people keep making excuses for SE and even going so far as to lie in their defense. I could care less about your karma unless you're here perpetuating lies to make XIV look better than it really is.
____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#316 Nov 26 2011 at 8:21 PM Rating: Decent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
I'm just curious why people keep making excuses for SE and even going so far as to lie in their defense. I could care less about your karma unless you're here perpetuating lies to make XIV look better than it really is.


Yes you care about my karma as well. I read many threads. In every thread you are active the posts of people who seem to enjoy the game in one way or another are rated down. Same goes for the people who disagree with you. You only want people to respect your opinion, but you cannot stand the idea of anyone having a different one than yours. But never mind that.

In all my life I have never seen someone like you, someone who is visiting a game forum only to trash any kind of positive thought about the game. And not for days or weeks, no, we're talking months. This cannot be healthy. Why would anyone do this to himself or others?

And your response is that you are only here to find out why people are making excuses for SE?

Does that mean that all it takes for you to leave forever is one answer that satisfies this question?

Edited, Nov 26th 2011 9:36pm by MrMissile
#317 Nov 26 2011 at 9:47 PM Rating: Decent
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MrMissile wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
I'm just curious why people keep making excuses for SE and even going so far as to lie in their defense. I could care less about your karma unless you're here perpetuating lies to make XIV look better than it really is.


Yes you care about my karma as well. I read many threads. In every thread you are active the posts of people who seem to enjoy the game in one way or another are rated down. Same goes for the people who disagree with you. You only want people to respect your opinion, but you cannot stand the idea of anyone having a different one than yours. But never mind that.


I have not rated you down in this thread or probably any other. The devs have my permission to call me out if I'm lying, but I really couldn't care less. I'd also be willing to bet that because of my opinion, I have been the victim of bombing far more than you have.

MrMissle wrote:
In all my life I have never seen someone like you, someone who is visiting a game forum only to trash any kind of positive thought about the game. And not for days or weeks, no, we're talking months. This cannot be healthy. Why would anyone do this to himself or others?


I only made those posts because BartelX, Twiddle and Elionara incorrectly stated that the picture of future UI is an actual screenshot. It is not. You are comparing a false statement about concept art, probably to give the appearance that XIV is in better shape than it really is, to 'positive thoughts'? I'm trashing XIV because I pointed out that the game engine isn't even completed yet so that 'screenshot' couldn't actually be an actual in-game screenshot?

MrMissle wrote:
And your response is that you are only here to find out why people are making excuses for SE?

I can understand being a fan, but not so much that you would try to downplay issues or exaggerate things to the point of lying. It could be because of the experience I had along the way as a tester and being exposed to more of the evolution of the game, but remember... that was a major reason why the game did so poorly to begin with.
____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#318 Nov 26 2011 at 11:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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What it will come down to is this; Once they start charging money I will have to evaluate if I am having ~12 worth of fun a month.
#319 Nov 27 2011 at 4:45 AM Rating: Good
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
I'm trashing XIV because I pointed out that the game engine isn't even completed yet so that 'screenshot' couldn't actually be an actual in-game screenshot?


No, in this case you are absolutely right. I believe that the screenshot they have been showing is NOT an actual screenshot, so when people claim otherwise without blinking their eyes you sure have a point.

But it is not this matter in particular. Just look at your entire ..oeuvre. It all boils down to this:

"FFXIV WAS crap, it IS crap and since they are too late doing what I think they should have done to fix this game, it will always BE crap".

This is your message, and it has been like this for months. MONTHS! I am not the first person who is pointing this out to you either. You don't (!!!) have to be a fan in order to recognize this and you don't (!!!) have to be a fan to wonder about your mental health. Visiting a websit for the sole purpose of downplaying anyhthing that is ("they are too late!!") or could be ("not gonna work, it's stupid!") positive is NOT normal behavior.

You have been a tester, correct. Past tense. I am still dealing with testers. Some are mediocre, some are great, and by the looks of it you would indeed be an excellent tester because you don't take anything for granted. However, what you are doing in this forum would never be tolerated in any company. You would be seen as this little pest who forgets that he is just a tester and acts like the head designer, programmer, writer etc in one and tries to change the game bottom-up in a rainman kind of style, shooting down any other idea or approaching them like a 13 yo who isn't allowed to do what he wants. I have seen those people at EA, and later at Nintendo, and eventually... they are surprised that the oompany do not give them a permanent contract and end up looking for work elsewhere, telling others that the company sucked anyway.

But hey, it is your life. Just too bad that you picked out this forum to ventilate your whatever it is in here. I would say: you have done your work. You have warned the people who want this game to work out. Let it go now, please.

Move on.

Edited, Nov 27th 2011 6:16am by MrMissile
#320 Nov 27 2011 at 5:16 AM Rating: Good
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Hello everyone...

I'm almost scared to post here with all the heated discussions going on. Hopefully no one will get mad or mean to me v.v;

To address the original question of the thread 'In or Out, Pay or Quit'.

I believe it can be well agreed upon that there is a fair bit of content that is missing, and a fair bit of adjustments that are needed, before FFXIV can be considered where we would like it all to be. This is noted by players, and by SE themselves (hence their drive to a 2.0 of the game, which is uncommon in the industry).

But I sometimes think, and this is common for a lot of people and in a lot of situations, that we focus a lot on what is wrong and not so much on what is good. If we stare at anything long enough we can find some bad in it. But if we also look for good, we can find it.

I am aware there are a lot of areas for improvement here, but I also look for the good, and based on the good I decide if I am 'In or Out'.

When I walk around town, I am treated to beautiful artwork, great scenery, excellent attention to details.
I see flickering of lights, moving of water. Towers in the distance, boats floating around. I see cute little taru and big scarry galka all over the place.

When I stroll into the outer regions I am treated to soft beautiful music, gorgeous weather effects, and cute little animals to 'play' with. When I glance at the world map I see that I have explored a small fraction of my starting region, and know there is much more out there to explore. I know there is a lot of beautiful areas to see, and cute creatures to talk with, and camps to hide in when it gets rainy or dark.

When I talk to NPCs I get nuggets of a story line or backdrop to the environment and world I'm now in.

And when I win a battle, I hear that all familiar victory tune that is known by every final fantasy player ever.

I then look at the company, the new leadership, the direction they are taking. I see that they do not wish to fail, and will strive hard not to. I see they are taking feedback seriously and working to make the game better.

I look at the direction for class & jobs (and what is in already), and see that there will be strategy and decisions needed to make a good character. And skill & experimenting to get the most out of your character.

Already I see enough to make me want to stay, and pay.

And things will continue to get better over time.


Thank you.
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#321 Nov 28 2011 at 1:44 AM Rating: Good
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MrMissile wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
I'm trashing XIV because I pointed out that the game engine isn't even completed yet so that 'screenshot' couldn't actually be an actual in-game screenshot?


No, in this case you are absolutely right. I believe that the screenshot they have been showing is NOT an actual screenshot, so when people claim otherwise without blinking their eyes you sure have a point.

But it is not this matter in particular. Just look at your entire ..oeuvre. It all boils down to this:

"FFXIV WAS crap, it IS crap and since they are too late doing what I think they should have done to fix this game, it will always BE crap".

No offense, but there is nothing I hate more than people tossing whatever they want to in quotations like it's words directly from my mouth. Keep the quotes to stuff I've actually said if you'd like to make a point.

That said, my general position about XIV has always been that they failed to listen to their testers who pointed out nearly all of this game's issues well in advance of release; most of which still remain and others that have been remedied. The fact is that this process could have been shortened at the least, but entirely avoided. I can't say whether it was their ego or their bottom line that had more of an effect, but their product and their image is damaged because of it. Regardless of anything I've said here, that point has been made a hundred times over.

MrMissile wrote:
However, what you are doing in this forum would never be tolerated in any company.

I wouldn't tolerate working for a company if they couldn't take criticism from someone who's job it is(as a paid tester at least) to provide feedback. For some reason this community denies any point or opinion that seems negative unless it is accompanied by 'constructive criticism'.

You don't have to have the solution to a problem to realize that there is a problem. Sure it makes you look like less of a crybaby if you do make a suggestion, but even though SE was provided with solutions by thousands of testers they failed to act. This somehow makes me a poor tester?

Stop taking my opinion personally. I criticize because I do want the game to succeed. Even though I think it's a long, rough road I still would like to see this game turn into something that is enjoyable. I don't pull punches and if I didn't give a **** I'd say nothing. You wanna run your games into the ground SE? Go right ahead. People who give a **** when something they do like is heading in the wrong direction will speak out. Get over it.
____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#322 Nov 28 2011 at 8:15 AM Rating: Decent
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924 posts
FilthMcNasty wrote:

It's a concept image and not a screenshot. Look closely at the art in the background of that image. It's obvious.

If that wasn't obvious enough, consider the fact that they haven't even finished the graphics engine yet. How do you figure they generated an image from something that hasn't even been created yet?

I know that there is a lot of faith here in SE to be able to pull off the miracle of bringing XIV back from the dead, but c'mon. Really? It's been over a year now. At what point does the denial wear off?


http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/27966-The-new-concept-screenshot-is-a-real-time-in-game-render!

It was an interview with gamewatch. There's four other stories I'll track down but Yoshi has stated in each one of those that the screenshot we saw was actual in-game footage, real-time. The UI was also the functioning UI they had in the game.

So yeah.

Edit:
Found the interview:
http://game.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/interview/20111017_484272.html

Relevant area: (someone other than google please translate, Kane, Elmer, someone with better skills than me please)
Quote:

編: この新生コンセプトスクリーンショットはリアルタイムレンダリングですか?
吉田氏: もちろん。


I couldn't paste the entire japanese part since zam said I had a word that was too long. Sorry.

Edited, Nov 28th 2011 8:29am by Elionara
____________________________
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/story.html?story=18309
Quote:
Like Final Fantasy XI, the game specs will be extremely high for the time, but in about 5 years, an average machine can run it on max settings with little to no issues. Tanaka also expressed interest in making a benchmark program available.

FilthMcNasty wrote:
I endorse this thread.
#323 Nov 28 2011 at 11:18 AM Rating: Excellent
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3,530 posts
Elionara wrote:
編: この新生コンセプトスクリーンショットはリアルタイムレンダリングですか?
吉田氏: もちろん。


I think it comes down to people thinking that Yoshida is, shall we say, being generous with the truth. We have to remember that there's a sizable difference between having proof that something is true, and having the word of someone highly invested in us believing that the thing is true and merely telling us that it is so. There is a conflict of interests inherent in Yoshida's answer - to say it's merely a concept is to disappoint people even further, and to say it's a real-time render gives some people faith in the game's future. Games make use of "hype" all the time, and it frequently comes to pass that the publicity is not concordant with reality.

The picture could be a real-time render, certainly, but at the same time it also seems hard to believe that SE was basically finished with huge parts of version 2.0 a year before they plan to implement it. This is the same SE who needs over a year to figure out how to make the linkshell's UI work. XD

In Yoshida's and his believers' defence, however, the picture doesn't show too much change from the current state of the game, making it possible that Yoshida is telling the truth. Look closely: the armour is already (or will be, with jobs) in the game, and the chimera is already in the .dats (and has been for a long time). Aside from those two elements, our screenshot is little more than a contrast adjustment, an annoying-looking giant sword, and a font change away from being realized.

In short: despite a possibly dubious source of evidence, the screenshot is quite likely a real-time render; there's nothing in the screenshot that would be difficult to do given what we know about the game, since a great majority of its changes amount to a redesign of the UI (and keep in mind, the UI need not actually work just to render something in real-time).
____________________________
"... he called to himself a wizard, named Gallery, hoping by this means to escape the paying of the fifteen hundred crowns..." (Machen 15)

"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#324 Nov 28 2011 at 11:25 AM Rating: Decent
KaneKitty wrote:
Elionara wrote:
編: この新生コンセプトスクリーンショットはリアルタイムレンダリングですか?
吉田氏: もちろん。


I think it comes down to people thinking that Yoshida is, shall we say, being generous with the truth. We have to remember that there's a sizable difference between having proof that something is true, and having the word of someone highly invested in us believing that the thing is true and merely telling us that it is so. There is a conflict of interests inherent in Yoshida's answer - to say it's merely a concept is to disappoint people even further, and to say it's a real-time render gives some people faith in the game's future. Games make use of "hype" all the time, and it frequently comes to pass that the publicity is not concordant with reality.

The picture could be a real-time render, certainly, but at the same time it also seems hard to believe that SE was basically finished with huge parts of version 2.0 a year before they plan to implement it. This is the same SE who needs over a year to figure out how to make the linkshell's UI work. XD

In Yoshida's and his believers' defence, however, the picture doesn't show too much change from the current state of the game, making it possible that Yoshida is telling the truth. Look closely: the armour is already (or will be, with jobs) in the game, and the chimera is already in the .dats (and has been for a long time). Aside from those two elements, our screenshot is little more than a contrast adjustment, an annoying-looking giant sword, and a font change away from being realized.

In short: despite a possibly dubious source of evidence, the screenshot is quite likely a real-time render; there's nothing in the screenshot that would be difficult to do given what we know about the game, since a great majority of its changes amount to a redesign of the UI (and keep in mind, the UI need not actually work just to render something in real-time).


I have to agree with Kane, as much as I would like to believe that the image is a fully realized screenshot, I do not think that the FFXIV team has quite reached the point of functional Chocobo combatants, or graphical fluidity as shown in the image.

As for the thread's topic - I'm staying. I look forward to the coming changes and am willing to support the efforts which may, in my opinion, turn this game into something that I enjoy playing everyday.


Edited, Nov 28th 2011 12:26pm by Dyrwydi
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#325 Nov 28 2011 at 12:24 PM Rating: Good
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2,214 posts
I wish there was an easy way to explain multi-tiered development and deployment processes.

With a proper understanding of how that works, and what is involved, the explaination that people are looking for as to how a UI like the one in the screen-shot can exist, and yet, things that appear to be simple implementations (such as linkshell commands and search for party features) can cause great delays and/or make updates seem slow and painful.

I will try and break down a few details that may allow people to better understand the reasons why such delays are necessary.

First, the UI, combat and functional aspects of the 2.0 engine are most likely based off of the current user data. This would allow them to port the information directly over without any data loss, but would require that either the data not change while the implementation was occurring (most likely a separate development system they are working on, with a snap-shot of the data), or the 2.0 team constantly taking updates from the currently active team. Either of these are likely approaches and come with their own pitfalls. The primary one being that some changes the 2.0 team would need would then be pushed down to the active dev team, causes some delays and changes that may not even be noticable.

Next, you have the complete redesign of the current Main UI. Include the fact that the 2.0 team is a completely seperate group of developers for the most part, many of the changes in the current Main UI will be mandated from them, not from the active development team. The reason being, they are the target. You don't shoot short and rework to the target unless you absolutely have to (see original SE development process).

With all of that said, yes, they still have 1 year before the release of 2.0. Having the Main UI complete would be a great first step as a proof of concept (which is what the screen shot appears to imply) of the direction of the game. However, the Main UI alone makes up a small portion of the game. We haven't seen the map revisions. The update to the menu UI system. The new Combat Engine. There are many more.

The primary motivator as Yoshi has pointed out, and from a development stand-point makes a great amount of sense, is that they are working to have the data compatible between 1.x and 2.0. This means that the UI would be the easiest to complete with a minimal impact to the existing teams, allowing for most immediate changes being implemented in the existing game that can be reworked (basically not setting the targets for items that are current pain-points for users, and simply fixing them now).

Examples of that in the last few updates were the removing of physical levels. This does not play a part in the 2.0 release directly. There is no pressing need to remove them at or before 2.0. There is however, a need to remove them to properly rework the classes and jobs.

The reallocation of skill points. By removing this feature, they can work with jobs at a static level, and identify strengths and weaknesses in their algorithms before re-introducing them.

The introduction of chocobo's and airships. Mounts and fast travel are a significant piece of 2.0 (as mentioned a few times), however, the need for some form of fast travel outweighted the desire to wait until the design was complete. In the future airship travel will take time in the air, so that people can stand out on an airship and view the world as they fly by.

There is also the Grand Company and Free Company design work that is being implemented. Again, we are talking about across the board changes. Just to get Grand Companies in and working, they had to finish the incomplete quest engine (while doling out as many quests as they can incorporate while working on the Grand Company Quest big). Anyone who did the Bomb escort event could see the similarities between that, and the current Chocobo escorts. Along with the redesign of the Leve system, and the addition of rank and more indepth player statistics tracking.

Then there is the class redesign work. You have the new identities added to each of the classes (gla/mrd as tanks, Lnc/Arc/Pug as dds, Con as healer, and Thm as nuker). But to do this, without taking too much away from the current design, there is the thought of re-allocation of abilities, and the gear...

which leads to the final aspect of the updates that they have been doing for the past year. The gear. They have completely reworked the crafting process, and recipe system (which was arguably more complex then the maps in the game), and break it down into focused gear for creating player identity.

And while, many people have stated their approval or dis-approval of each change that has occurred in the last year, there is no dispute that what is happening in 14 is not what happened in the original Alpha/Beta/Release.

Those of you that are holding on to the fact that SE has done nothing, and will do nothing, I'm sorry, the facts prove otherwise. People who claim that SE is doing the same thing, also, not true.

The concern that the updates are not fast enough. Please understand, this is not as simple as writing in a text box "Make this cool feature work the way that people want". It takes time, and there are at any given point in time 3 teams working in tandem to implement these changes. It may not be at a speed that is to your liking, but from a development perspective, it is a break-neck speed that means that people are missing milestones in their families lives, and are having sleepless nights making sure deadlines are met and obligations are fulfilled.

I am not trying to make excuses or defend SE. I am also not going to try and influence people to stay or go. I have been clear in my opinion, as long as I can have fun in the game I will stay. So far, the game development has kept speed with my time, and I am still having fun.

I am now down to Defeating Ifrit, crafting my dream armor, and maybe getting Mining to 50 before I officially run out of things to do again... Oh yeah, there are a few NMs that I still want to take down (still haven't gotten the all of the HNMs or the FNMs... actually, I have only gotten 1 HNM, and he was easy:).

So, please, if your choice is not to stay, do not use the excuse that it is the same game as when you started, or that they are not doing anything about it, or that they are not listening to their playerbase. None of that is true.

If you are walking away because you have become distant, bored, or annoyed, those are all valid reasons and completely understandable by most.

Saying others shouldn't play it because you don't... Well, that should be obvious...
#326 Nov 28 2011 at 3:36 PM Rating: Good
rfolkker wrote:

I wish there was an easy way to explain multi-tiered development and deployment processes.

With a proper understanding of how that works, and what is involved, the explaination that people are looking for as to how a UI like the one in the screen-shot can exist, and yet, things that appear to be simple implementations (such as linkshell commands and search for party features) can cause great delays and/or make updates seem slow and painful.

I will try and break down a few details that may allow people to better understand the reasons why such delays are necessary.

First, the UI, combat and functional aspects of the 2.0 engine are most likely based off of the current user data. This would allow them to port the information directly over without any data loss, but would require that either the data not change while the implementation was occurring (most likely a separate development system they are working on, with a snap-shot of the data), or the 2.0 team constantly taking updates from the currently active team. Either of these are likely approaches and come with their own pitfalls. The primary one being that some changes the 2.0 team would need would then be pushed down to the active dev team, causes some delays and changes that may not even be noticable.

Next, you have the complete redesign of the current Main UI. Include the fact that the 2.0 team is a completely seperate group of developers for the most part, many of the changes in the current Main UI will be mandated from them, not from the active development team. The reason being, they are the target. You don't shoot short and rework to the target unless you absolutely have to (see original SE development process).

With all of that said, yes, they still have 1 year before the release of 2.0. Having the Main UI complete would be a great first step as a proof of concept (which is what the screen shot appears to imply) of the direction of the game. However, the Main UI alone makes up a small portion of the game. We haven't seen the map revisions. The update to the menu UI system. The new Combat Engine. There are many more.

The primary motivator as Yoshi has pointed out, and from a development stand-point makes a great amount of sense, is that they are working to have the data compatible between 1.x and 2.0. This means that the UI would be the easiest to complete with a minimal impact to the existing teams, allowing for most immediate changes being implemented in the existing game that can be reworked (basically not setting the targets for items that are current pain-points for users, and simply fixing them now).

Examples of that in the last few updates were the removing of physical levels. This does not play a part in the 2.0 release directly. There is no pressing need to remove them at or before 2.0. There is however, a need to remove them to properly rework the classes and jobs.

The reallocation of skill points. By removing this feature, they can work with jobs at a static level, and identify strengths and weaknesses in their algorithms before re-introducing them.

The introduction of chocobo's and airships. Mounts and fast travel are a significant piece of 2.0 (as mentioned a few times), however, the need for some form of fast travel outweighted the desire to wait until the design was complete. In the future airship travel will take time in the air, so that people can stand out on an airship and view the world as they fly by.

There is also the Grand Company and Free Company design work that is being implemented. Again, we are talking about across the board changes. Just to get Grand Companies in and working, they had to finish the incomplete quest engine (while doling out as many quests as they can incorporate while working on the Grand Company Quest big). Anyone who did the Bomb escort event could see the similarities between that, and the current Chocobo escorts. Along with the redesign of the Leve system, and the addition of rank and more indepth player statistics tracking.

Then there is the class redesign work. You have the new identities added to each of the classes (gla/mrd as tanks, Lnc/Arc/Pug as dds, Con as healer, and Thm as nuker). But to do this, without taking too much away from the current design, there is the thought of re-allocation of abilities, and the gear...

which leads to the final aspect of the updates that they have been doing for the past year. The gear. They have completely reworked the crafting process, and recipe system (which was arguably more complex then the maps in the game), and break it down into focused gear for creating player identity.

And while, many people have stated their approval or dis-approval of each change that has occurred in the last year, there is no dispute that what is happening in 14 is not what happened in the original Alpha/Beta/Release.

Those of you that are holding on to the fact that SE has done nothing, and will do nothing, I'm sorry, the facts prove otherwise. People who claim that SE is doing the same thing, also, not true.

The concern that the updates are not fast enough. Please understand, this is not as simple as writing in a text box "Make this cool feature work the way that people want". It takes time, and there are at any given point in time 3 teams working in tandem to implement these changes. It may not be at a speed that is to your liking, but from a development perspective, it is a break-neck speed that means that people are missing milestones in their families lives, and are having sleepless nights making sure deadlines are met and obligations are fulfilled.

I am not trying to make excuses or defend SE. I am also not going to try and influence people to stay or go. I have been clear in my opinion, as long as I can have fun in the game I will stay. So far, the game development has kept speed with my time, and I am still having fun.

I am now down to Defeating Ifrit, crafting my dream armor, and maybe getting Mining to 50 before I officially run out of things to do again... Oh yeah, there are a few NMs that I still want to take down (still haven't gotten the all of the HNMs or the FNMs... actually, I have only gotten 1 HNM, and he was easy:).

So, please, if your choice is not to stay, do not use the excuse that it is the same game as when you started, or that they are not doing anything about it, or that they are not listening to their playerbase. None of that is true.

If you are walking away because you have become distant, bored, or annoyed, those are all valid reasons and completely understandable by most.

Saying others shouldn't play it because you don't... Well, that should be obvious...



Very well thought out - while not in software development, the steps your detailed are very similar to those we follow in major network infrastructure re-designs - not tooting a personal horn, just using my limited experience to confirm the accuracy of the points given. Thank you for your contribution, Rfolkker.

edit: since rating posts is again out of my grasp - +1 from me (great idea TwiddleDee).

Edited, Nov 28th 2011 5:27pm by Dyrwydi
____________________________
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#327 Nov 28 2011 at 3:52 PM Rating: Decent
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rfolkker wrote:
I wish there was an easy way to explain multi-tiered development and deployment processes.

With a proper understanding of how that works, and what is involved, the explaination that people are looking for as to how a UI like the one in the screen-shot can exist, and yet, things that appear to be simple implementations (such as linkshell commands and search for party features) can cause great delays and/or make updates seem slow and painful.

I will try and break down a few details that may allow people to better understand the reasons why such delays are necessary.

First, the UI, combat and functional aspects of the 2.0 engine are most likely based off of the current user data. This would allow them to port the information directly over without any data loss, but would require that either the data not change while the implementation was occurring (most likely a separate development system they are working on, with a snap-shot of the data), or the 2.0 team constantly taking updates from the currently active team. Either of these are likely approaches and come with their own pitfalls. The primary one being that some changes the 2.0 team would need would then be pushed down to the active dev team, causes some delays and changes that may not even be noticable.

Next, you have the complete redesign of the current Main UI. Include the fact that the 2.0 team is a completely seperate group of developers for the most part, many of the changes in the current Main UI will be mandated from them, not from the active development team. The reason being, they are the target. You don't shoot short and rework to the target unless you absolutely have to (see original SE development process).

With all of that said, yes, they still have 1 year before the release of 2.0. Having the Main UI complete would be a great first step as a proof of concept (which is what the screen shot appears to imply) of the direction of the game. However, the Main UI alone makes up a small portion of the game. We haven't seen the map revisions. The update to the menu UI system. The new Combat Engine. There are many more.

The primary motivator as Yoshi has pointed out, and from a development stand-point makes a great amount of sense, is that they are working to have the data compatible between 1.x and 2.0. This means that the UI would be the easiest to complete with a minimal impact to the existing teams, allowing for most immediate changes being implemented in the existing game that can be reworked (basically not setting the targets for items that are current pain-points for users, and simply fixing them now).

Examples of that in the last few updates were the removing of physical levels. This does not play a part in the 2.0 release directly. There is no pressing need to remove them at or before 2.0. There is however, a need to remove them to properly rework the classes and jobs.

The reallocation of skill points. By removing this feature, they can work with jobs at a static level, and identify strengths and weaknesses in their algorithms before re-introducing them.

The introduction of chocobo's and airships. Mounts and fast travel are a significant piece of 2.0 (as mentioned a few times), however, the need for some form of fast travel outweighted the desire to wait until the design was complete. In the future airship travel will take time in the air, so that people can stand out on an airship and view the world as they fly by.

There is also the Grand Company and Free Company design work that is being implemented. Again, we are talking about across the board changes. Just to get Grand Companies in and working, they had to finish the incomplete quest engine (while doling out as many quests as they can incorporate while working on the Grand Company Quest big). Anyone who did the Bomb escort event could see the similarities between that, and the current Chocobo escorts. Along with the redesign of the Leve system, and the addition of rank and more indepth player statistics tracking.

Then there is the class redesign work. You have the new identities added to each of the classes (gla/mrd as tanks, Lnc/Arc/Pug as dds, Con as healer, and Thm as nuker). But to do this, without taking too much away from the current design, there is the thought of re-allocation of abilities, and the gear...

which leads to the final aspect of the updates that they have been doing for the past year. The gear. They have completely reworked the crafting process, and recipe system (which was arguably more complex then the maps in the game), and break it down into focused gear for creating player identity.

And while, many people have stated their approval or dis-approval of each change that has occurred in the last year, there is no dispute that what is happening in 14 is not what happened in the original Alpha/Beta/Release.

Those of you that are holding on to the fact that SE has done nothing, and will do nothing, I'm sorry, the facts prove otherwise. People who claim that SE is doing the same thing, also, not true.

The concern that the updates are not fast enough. Please understand, this is not as simple as writing in a text box "Make this cool feature work the way that people want". It takes time, and there are at any given point in time 3 teams working in tandem to implement these changes. It may not be at a speed that is to your liking, but from a development perspective, it is a break-neck speed that means that people are missing milestones in their families lives, and are having sleepless nights making sure deadlines are met and obligations are fulfilled.

I am not trying to make excuses or defend SE. I am also not going to try and influence people to stay or go. I have been clear in my opinion, as long as I can have fun in the game I will stay. So far, the game development has kept speed with my time, and I am still having fun.

I am now down to Defeating Ifrit, crafting my dream armor, and maybe getting Mining to 50 before I officially run out of things to do again... Oh yeah, there are a few NMs that I still want to take down (still haven't gotten the all of the HNMs or the FNMs... actually, I have only gotten 1 HNM, and he was easy:).

So, please, if your choice is not to stay, do not use the excuse that it is the same game as when you started, or that they are not doing anything about it, or that they are not listening to their playerbase. None of that is true.

If you are walking away because you have become distant, bored, or annoyed, those are all valid reasons and completely understandable by most.

Saying others shouldn't play it because you don't... Well, that should be obvious...


+1 from me..
____________________________
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#328 Nov 28 2011 at 5:37 PM Rating: Good
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9,043 posts
I've been playing the SW:TOR open beta this weekend. While it's not optimized, and it needs a little bit of work, my god it's good. It's so good that I'm tempted to milk it and stay up until 6am until the servers go down.

Sadly, I never got even close to saying that about XIV. (Or, for that matter, WoW.)

SW:TOR seems to have that little bit of special something that draws you in. Possibly the character development alongside the story (XI was great at that 8 years ago. Now, not so much. Times have changed. And XIV doesn't really add anything to it in that respect).

I can't see me ever playing XIV as a pay-to-play. It isn't good enough. And, while I'll keep an eye on how things are, I honestly don't think it ever will be...
____________________________
Likibiki ~ 75 WHM ~ 75 SAM ~ 75 THF ~ 75 SMN ~ 74 NIN
Pandemonium Server, FFXI. Retired. Gone but not forgotten.
Cailey ~ 90 DNC ~ 90 RDM ~ 90 BLM
Asura Server, FFXI. Adventurer Extraordinaire.
#329 Nov 28 2011 at 6:30 PM Rating: Decent
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6,898 posts
FilthMcNasty wrote:
I only made those posts because BartelX, Twiddle and Elionara incorrectly stated that the picture of future UI is an actual screenshot. It is not. You are comparing a false statement about concept art, probably to give the appearance that XIV is in better shape than it really is, to 'positive thoughts'? I'm trashing XIV because I pointed out that the game engine isn't even completed yet so that 'screenshot' couldn't actually be an actual in-game screenshot?


We didn't incorrectly state anything. The question was asked in an article and Yoshida stated that what you saw was actual in-game footage. I don't remember where I read, it was either here or the lodestone forums most likely but I'm not gonna spend hours digging through threads to figure it out... I'm just not that patient, sorry.

I'm sure they added onto the image (like the UI and possibly tweaking contrast, color, etc to get the look they were going for), however that doesn't mean that I'm lying like you claimed, I'm just telling you what I read. Just because it says "concept" next to it doesn't mean that they fabricated the whole thing... it just means it's a work in progress. Oh, and just fyi... you don't need a FULLY operational graphics engine to produce a still shot or short video. Heck, I could do that on my computer in college.

Edited, Nov 28th 2011 7:52pm by BartelX
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50 WAR • 50 MNK • 50 MIN • 50 GSM • 50 ARM • 50 LTW • 50 CUL • 50 WVR
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#330 Nov 28 2011 at 7:26 PM Rating: Good
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All arguments aside, I am enjoying myself. I'll pay and continue to play.

If I stop enjoying the game, I'll stop paying.

/shrug
#331 Nov 29 2011 at 6:18 AM Rating: Good
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4,151 posts
BartelX wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
I only made those posts because BartelX, Twiddle and Elionara incorrectly stated that the picture of future UI is an actual screenshot. It is not. You are comparing a false statement about concept art, probably to give the appearance that XIV is in better shape than it really is, to 'positive thoughts'? I'm trashing XIV because I pointed out that the game engine isn't even completed yet so that 'screenshot' couldn't actually be an actual in-game screenshot?


We didn't incorrectly state anything. The question was asked in an article and Yoshida stated that what you saw was actual in-game footage. I don't remember where I read, it was either here or the lodestone forums most likely but I'm not gonna spend hours digging through threads to figure it out... I'm just not that patient, sorry.


Forgive me for calling you a liar. To be honest, if I were in Yoshi's shoes and people were impressed with XIV(for the first time probably in a long time) I'd probably go with it too. I'm not saying that we should come to expect it, but it isn't the first time SE has tried to misrepresent XIV. I commend them for setting a high bar for themselves with what this image represents, but I don't like that they tried to pass it off as something it isn't. Inspect it a bit more.


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cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#332 Nov 29 2011 at 2:21 PM Rating: Decent
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6,898 posts
FilthMcNasty wrote:

Forgive me for calling you a liar. To be honest, if I were in Yoshi's shoes and people were impressed with XIV(for the first time probably in a long time) I'd probably go with it too. I'm not saying that we should come to expect it, but it isn't the first time SE has tried to misrepresent XIV. I commend them for setting a high bar for themselves with what this image represents, but I don't like that they tried to pass it off as something it isn't. Inspect it a bit more.


If Yoshida was lying in the interview, then that's on him. Like I said, I'm sure the image had a LOT of enhancing done, heck it's possible it's even just layers of different screenshots blended together, but I still think that the core of it was actual in-game captures. Really, I don't care because if the game DOES end up looking like that for 2.0 (with a fully customizable UI no less) I'm very happy with that. I think that art style is awesome, it looks almost like a really good batman graphic novel or something.
____________________________
Bartel Hayward--- Ultros Server
The Kraken Club <ZAM>
50 WAR • 50 MNK • 50 MIN • 50 GSM • 50 ARM • 50 LTW • 50 CUL • 50 WVR
thekrakenclub.shivtr.com
#333 Nov 29 2011 at 3:01 PM Rating: Good
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3,530 posts
BartelX wrote:
Really, I don't care because if the game DOES end up looking like that for 2.0 (with a fully customizable UI no less) I'm very happy with that. I think that art style is awesome, it looks almost like a really good batman graphic novel or something.


Re-skin the UI and turn up you monitor's contrast; you're 90% of the way there.
____________________________
"... he called to himself a wizard, named Gallery, hoping by this means to escape the paying of the fifteen hundred crowns..." (Machen 15)

"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#334 Nov 29 2011 at 5:32 PM Rating: Excellent
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9,043 posts
I've been thinking about this, and I find it hard to believe that SE, with their woefully inadequate marketing team, will be able to convince people to buy this game when it eventually comes out on the PS3.

"Hey, guys. Buy this new FF game. Yeah, it's over 2 years old, and everyone says it sucks, and we've been updating it for 2 years while still charging people to play, but honest *****, it's good now!"

Then again, knowing SE as I do, they probably won't even invest that much in marketing. Which might actually be better.

Next year we have TOR, GW2, Blade & Soul, and we currently have Rift, the behemoth that is WoW, FFXI, etc etc... the MMO market is too big for a product to attempt a full scale recovery. People have too many options. XIV is in big, big trouble, and in my opinion SE should have just pulled the plug rather than remake it.
____________________________
Likibiki ~ 75 WHM ~ 75 SAM ~ 75 THF ~ 75 SMN ~ 74 NIN
Pandemonium Server, FFXI. Retired. Gone but not forgotten.
Cailey ~ 90 DNC ~ 90 RDM ~ 90 BLM
Asura Server, FFXI. Adventurer Extraordinaire.
#335 Nov 29 2011 at 6:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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3,530 posts
Likibiki wrote:
People have too many options. XIV is in big, big trouble, and in my opinion SE should have just pulled the plug rather than remake it.


I partially agree with your point; I think SE should have "pulled the plug" and remade it. What they're doing now is the proverbial fighting on two fronts: SE has to churn out updates and content as fast as possible to appease current players, but while also attempting to radically revise the game for the far future. Their attempt to confront the former ensures that we get quick fixes more than anything else (like slapping 15 things on every class and going from there; like preserving the wards at all costs; like cheaply made side-quests), which, in turn, undermines their ability to accomplish the latter.

In other words, the game is heading in a direction defined by a close examination of resource management and with a relatively stringent deadline; and this direction produces a worse, less interesting product than could have been produced by a complete and indefinite shutdown, akin to a "it's ready when it's ready" policy.

Fighting on two fronts ends in failure more often than it ends in success, and when it does end in success, it's frequently a bloody, sordid victory.


Edited, Nov 29th 2011 7:59pm by KaneKitty
____________________________
"... he called to himself a wizard, named Gallery, hoping by this means to escape the paying of the fifteen hundred crowns..." (Machen 15)

"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#336 Nov 30 2011 at 12:05 AM Rating: Decent
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It might also be worth noting:

Cancelling/stopping FFXIV generates more negative publicity than 'significantly reworking it whilst keeping it running'.
Additionally cancelling/stopping it will more negatively affect the company (evaluation of the company, management, board, etc.) than trying to fix it.

Both reasons in themselves are sufficient to try and make the game succesful. Also, it is unlikely to 'cost' (as in real money) to them all that much to make it better. Especially when compared to bad publicity if it does not succeed. Not to mention pepper-spraying-walmart-moms who might confuse FFXIII-2 with FFXIV and think they are both bad so get neither.

Finally, there is no reason it can not be made better.

(On a completly side note/massive unfounded speculation.. I get a sneaky feeling they released 'early' because the 'publicized' early that the game exists. I remember a couple years ago when it was a shock to the media that such a thing had progressed 'so far' without any leaks/rumours. Perhaps what we have now is a result of a chain of events that started with trying to avoid leaks/rumours about the games existence?)

Any ways......
I have no linkshell, I have no one to talk with, no one to party with, and seem to be levelling a lot slower than everyone else suggests its possible.

But I'm still in! The game has good graphics, beautiful scenery & music, and nice stories!


____________________________


#337 Nov 30 2011 at 1:49 AM Rating: Good
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4,151 posts
Asiaine wrote:
It might also be worth noting:

Cancelling/stopping FFXIV generates more negative publicity than 'significantly reworking it whilst keeping it running'.
Additionally cancelling/stopping it will more negatively affect the company (evaluation of the company, management, board, etc.) than trying to fix it.


I'm not convinced. People know that more FF games are coming. I think if SE had come out and said "We dropped the ball on this one" instead of lying about it and stringing the community along on false hopes, they'd be in a much better position right about now.

The company reps and devs pump out press about how many new changes are coming and the community talks about how much is still broken. I really believe that if they'd scrapped it last December, or at least stopped trying to fix a client they have now decided to scrap, they probably could have pushed out 2.0 this Christmas.

I'm also thinking that the reason the game was pushed was because they spent so much time focused on the graphics engine. Although it needs quite a bit of tweaking to optimize, it was about the only thing that came from this project that was well worth the wait.
____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#338 Nov 30 2011 at 3:12 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
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350 posts
Hello,

I agree that many people will know more FF games are comming out. But I think perhaps this is mostly people who are into gaming (either playing or the business of). This may not apply to a lot of people who do not know final fantasy from world of warcraft. People who are new into this online gaming thing, or parents of kids who know not about games, but just want to buy them a present.

It is quite reasonable to believe that there is a sizeable portion of customers out there who are not familiar with the history of Final Fantasy or Square and simply see it as 'oh, another one of those video game things'. And if they hear Final Fantasy 'anything' is cancelled, they may only remember the 'oh, that FInal Fantasy game, I heard it was not good' and then move on to the next item on the shelf.

Keeping in mind that it may well be a significant portion of potential customers are simply not into gaming enough to 'know better' so to speak ^.^;

And as far as business practices go, it is usually considered a very very bad sign if a product is stopped/recalled/cancelled (even if a rehash is planned in a year or two). This could lead to all sorts of bad things in the SE's business world we can't even pretend to understand (how will this effect deductions, profits, margins, bonuses, resources, head counts, cost of removal, cost of re-establishing sales channels, etc, etc.).

I think it may well be 'simpler' and 'safer' all around to try and keep the game improving incrementally. At least some people will be happy to play ^.^

____________________________


#339 Nov 30 2011 at 4:30 AM Rating: Excellent
****
4,151 posts
I think that by allowing the game to continue on in poor shape has done more damage. Here's why:

In essence, XIV right now is a beta test that you have to pay to participate in; the cost of the box being anywhere from $80 for CE on down to $10 on amazon or in a bargain bin. Soon this test will not only be paid participation, but it will also require a subscription fee. People don't want to pay for a beta key and they definitely don't want to pay to subscribe to a beta test, especially when it's not really entertaining.


On the other hand, if SE had put XIV on hold and worked more at developing their new graphics engine and client, reading and considering the feedback they received in testing; they would likely be much closer to 2.0 release. They might have had a chance to challenge GW2, SWtoR, ect.

People who have stuck it out will see XIV as 'A game we had high hopes for that failed at launch and limped along slowly getting better over several years'. People who left early and plan on coming back might say 'A game that I thought died but came out of nowhere with loads of welcome fixes, adjustments and content'. I just think that the latter would have worked a bit better.

SE knocked the graphics out of the park, but it's worn thin already and at this point just makes me even more upset that the gameplay doesn't even come close to matching up.




____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#340 Nov 30 2011 at 11:11 AM Rating: Decent
**
924 posts
I always get a kick out of people thinking companies can pull an entirely new graphics engine out their *** along with new assets.

It's been stated by Yoshi he will re-create almost everything from scratch which is why they are allowing everyone a "make-over" for their face, and possibly race although currently he wants to limit it to the same gender.

They ARE making a second MMO, while they do have assets here/there that can be reused, they also have to redo most of the gear.

Why? Because they are removing all the different colored sets. Currently you have 2-5 model files for each race for reach gear that can be colored. The color is hard-modeled.

They will change this to allow hue/saturation values in 2.0 and you can change dye on the fly, sort of like GuildWars/Aion. So your looking at removing at least 1200+ gear dats at last count.

Some textures will be reused (only so many ways to draw a floor or brick), but most of those are being redone.

They are coding the game to scale properly across any system while maintaining a near consistent graphics quality.

They've recently licensed the Unreal3 engine which someone could only speculate will bring XIV to Vita/Android/iOS as well. (assumption since you can get near XIV graphics on them with unreal's engine)

I will pay for this beta. People argue out their *** about how we deserve this or that, or I want my e-*****. If your only going to complain and have nothing good to say about the game; the easy fix is to NOT pay for it, move on to something else and be happy.

I'm glad they are going to charge for it now. The official forums will be filled only with people posting that pay, and have a right to say: "I'm paying for this, I deserve better." Even if it's a stupid request.

I just had 12 friends buy the game. Are they signing up today? Yes. Are they going to play with me lots right now? No. They bought it because its 19.99(29.99 collectors) and in a year they will get the free upgrade to 2.0.

Unless we have people here who work for a large gaming company worth millions/billions of dollars, I wouldn't speculate on how hard things are or what should have been done.

FFS, "the world" is changing, we are getting an event to explain to whole process and all the while we won't lose our data. They've pumped millions into this. 250 developers have been working on it, mostly on 2.0 to get a new version out in 1 year, when they should have had 25-50 on it over a 5 year period if not a little less/more.

I'm not a white knight either, this game was **** on launch, **** in alpha and recently graduated to guacamole. Next year I get my 5000 calorie twinkie. Long live the diet!
____________________________
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/story.html?story=18309
Quote:
Like Final Fantasy XI, the game specs will be extremely high for the time, but in about 5 years, an average machine can run it on max settings with little to no issues. Tanaka also expressed interest in making a benchmark program available.

FilthMcNasty wrote:
I endorse this thread.
#341 Nov 30 2011 at 11:36 AM Rating: Default
Avatar
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569 posts
FilthMcNasty wrote:
I think that by allowing the game to continue on in poor shape has done more damage. Here's why:

In essence, XIV right now is a beta test that you have to pay to participate in; the cost of the box being anywhere from $80 for CE on down to $10 on amazon or in a bargain bin. Soon this test will not only be paid participation, but it will also require a subscription fee. People don't want to pay for a beta key and they definitely don't want to pay to subscribe to a beta test, especially when it's not really entertaining.


On the other hand, if SE had put XIV on hold and worked more at developing their new graphics engine and client, reading and considering the feedback they received in testing; they would likely be much closer to 2.0 release. They might have had a chance to challenge GW2, SWtoR, ect.

People who have stuck it out will see XIV as 'A game we had high hopes for that failed at launch and limped along slowly getting better over several years'. People who left early and plan on coming back might say 'A game that I thought died but came out of nowhere with loads of welcome fixes, adjustments and content'. I just think that the latter would have worked a bit better.

SE knocked the graphics out of the park, but it's worn thin already and at this point just makes me even more upset that the gameplay doesn't even come close to matching up.






I don't understand your point here.. People spend more $$ on f2p games with cash shops, that are worse then XIV in ever way, over 3 months then what it will cost to p2p XIV for 1 year. SE's neck will be on the chopping block in 11 months. I just don't see the loss to pay even if only to test the patches as they roll out.
____________________________
99th paper cut, and the grain of salt.
#342 Nov 30 2011 at 1:11 PM Rating: Decent
I trimmed down your post to address one issue that is inaccurate at it's core.

FilthMcNasty wrote:
People don't want to pay for a beta key and they definitely don't want to pay to subscribe to a beta test, especially when it's not really entertaining.


Black market trading of beta keys to developing games is a major deal. Keys, depending on the game, can run up to several hundred dollars - using SW:TOR and WoW expansion testings as my example here. Granted XIV has been out and f2p long enough that you may be right, some people may leave the game during the 8-10 months of monthly billed game play, but I assure you, I will not be the only person playing every month to play. Yes the game plays more like a beta than a released MMO should, but I'm fine with that, based on the coming changes in the next year.

I get that you want to put your foot down, plant your flag and make sure that everyone knows where you stand, but your broad-sweeping, outlandish, and at times comical attempts to demean FFXIV are getting loathsome. Keep to the fact or opinion, and you'll find a lot less push-back from other members of the community.
____________________________
Success is a journey, not a destination - Failure is a destination achieved by ending the journey.
#343 Nov 30 2011 at 1:57 PM Rating: Good
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6,898 posts
KaneKitty wrote:
BartelX wrote:
Really, I don't care because if the game DOES end up looking like that for 2.0 (with a fully customizable UI no less) I'm very happy with that. I think that art style is awesome, it looks almost like a really good batman graphic novel or something.


Re-skin the UI and turn up you monitor's contrast; you're 90% of the way there.


If you know anything about graphic design you'd realize how absolutely false that statement is. With 90% contrast increase everything would be blown out and all of the color would be grainy as ****. I do a lot of photo retouching myself, and one of the biggest mistakes people make is messing with the contrast too much. To a certain point it looks ok, after that it just makes things look like crap.
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#344 Nov 30 2011 at 2:06 PM Rating: Good
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4,151 posts
Professor Dyrwydi wrote:
I trimmed down your post to address one issue that is inaccurate at it's core.

FilthMcNasty wrote:
People don't want to pay for a beta key and they definitely don't want to pay to subscribe to a beta test, especially when it's not really entertaining.


Black market trading of beta keys to developing games is a major deal. Keys, depending on the game, can run up to several hundred dollars - using SW:TOR and WoW expansion testings as my example here. Granted XIV has been out and f2p long enough that you may be right, some people may leave the game during the 8-10 months of monthly billed game play, but I assure you, I will not be the only person playing every month to play. Yes the game plays more like a beta than a released MMO should, but I'm fine with that, based on the coming changes in the next year.

I get that you want to put your foot down, plant your flag and make sure that everyone knows where you stand, but your broad-sweeping, outlandish, and at times comical attempts to demean FFXIV are getting loathsome. Keep to the fact or opinion, and you'll find a lot less push-back from other members of the community.


People pay for beta keys to games that have not yet released because they want to be the first to play or because they want to see what all the hype is about. That was gone for XIV over a year ago so I'm not sure why you're making this point. I know you trimmed down the post to save space, but in context it was regarding the current state of XIV and not other games.

I don't see anything outlandish or comical about it really. People don't want to pay for a game that isn't expected to be 'finished' until 2013.

Disclaimer: I am speaking about XIV and not any other game.

____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#345 Nov 30 2011 at 2:26 PM Rating: Default
**
924 posts
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Professor Dyrwydi wrote:
I trimmed down your post to address one issue that is inaccurate at it's core.

FilthMcNasty wrote:
People don't want to pay for a beta key and they definitely don't want to pay to subscribe to a beta test, especially when it's not really entertaining.


Black market trading of beta keys to developing games is a major deal. Keys, depending on the game, can run up to several hundred dollars - using SW:TOR and WoW expansion testings as my example here. Granted XIV has been out and f2p long enough that you may be right, some people may leave the game during the 8-10 months of monthly billed game play, but I assure you, I will not be the only person playing every month to play. Yes the game plays more like a beta than a released MMO should, but I'm fine with that, based on the coming changes in the next year.

I get that you want to put your foot down, plant your flag and make sure that everyone knows where you stand, but your broad-sweeping, outlandish, and at times comical attempts to demean FFXIV are getting loathsome. Keep to the fact or opinion, and you'll find a lot less push-back from other members of the community.


People pay for beta keys to games that have not yet released because they want to be the first to play or because they want to see what all the hype is about. That was gone for XIV over a year ago so I'm not sure why you're making this point. I know you trimmed down the post to save space, but in context it was regarding the current state of XIV and not other games.

I don't see anything outlandish or comical about it really. People don't want to pay for a game that isn't expected to be 'finished' until 2013.

Disclaimer: I am speaking about XIV and not any other game.



NO game is finished. Next patch XIV will be release ready. If games were finished why the **** do they still get updates? As of next patch the game will have substantially more than XI did at launch. People paid and played the **** out of it when it came out in Japan.

If we keep our perspective limited to XI/XIV; when they ask for subscriptions they will have a product that's worth the money.

How dedicated is a company when it has 200+ people working on MMO version2 and 30+ working on MMO version1 just to give the world cohesiveness when our entire world changes come next year?

The two biggest complaints: Auction House, Player Search.

ALWAYS the two biggest complaints that people want from this game. It's coming in about 2 weeks. Any complaint I hear how the game isn't like xi/aion/wow/gw/sw/other_mmo makes me just want to tell the person to shove it up their idea's up their tight *** and go play those other mmo's because while I want:
Perfected systems (from all mmo's histories) with a final fantasy spin, I don't want: the other mmo's, or I would be playing the little sh*ts.

Why can't people see XIV for what it should be, it's own mmo. Make your suggestions about what you want. It's good to have idea's, but to whine like a ***** on prom night because XIV isn't just like your other favorite MMO, doesn't help anyone.

Disclaimer: Meant for those who offer nothing constructive.

Added:
I know why fora exist beyond bug reports or help/questions. It's for the trolls of life. I do it on a regular basis at work too. So much fun.

Edited, Nov 30th 2011 12:29pm by Elionara
____________________________
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/story.html?story=18309
Quote:
Like Final Fantasy XI, the game specs will be extremely high for the time, but in about 5 years, an average machine can run it on max settings with little to no issues. Tanaka also expressed interest in making a benchmark program available.

FilthMcNasty wrote:
I endorse this thread.
#346 Nov 30 2011 at 2:44 PM Rating: Good
**
325 posts
Fast forward to after 1.20:

You just bought the game in December 2011 and started it after 1.20. It is a decent game with lots to do so I think the game will be good enough to charge.

The reason I keep going back and forth thinking it isn't quite good enough to charge for is mostly because there isn't enough to keep the people who have several jobs to 50 and already have 7/7 Ifrit drops busy for more than about 2 weeks.

Only time will tell...
#347 Nov 30 2011 at 3:32 PM Rating: Decent
**
924 posts
Yelta wrote:
Fast forward to after 1.20:

You just bought the game in December 2011 and started it after 1.20. It is a decent game with lots to do so I think the game will be good enough to charge.

The reason I keep going back and forth thinking it isn't quite good enough to charge for is mostly because there isn't enough to keep the people who have several jobs to 50 and already have 7/7 Ifrit drops busy for more than about 2 weeks.

Only time will tell...


I wish it were that easy just to pile in so much stuff right now.

With how bad Wada launched this and how bad the server coding is it's not easy. That much is fact. If XIV launched today, and we didn't have the FREE "beta" period for the last year; would people be complaining so much?

I don't think so.

Any new player that picks up this game after next month, will be happy to play it I'm sure. I've been playing this since first the first day we could play in alpha.

Remember when they said the beta period for XIV would be longer than XI's? They weren't kidding. But as of next month we will have the "launched" version of XIV.

As a BONUS, and I do mean bonus, we are getting to keep all our data, now and into 2.0.

We are being rewarded for sticking around so long, whether people can see that or not. They could have shut down the game, deleted everything and said: "We are sorry, we will fix this, please be patient."

Instead we get to keep it all :)

There may not be enough for everyone to do, but I still have 8 jobs to get 50, all the quests to complete, all the loadstone history.

I still need to get that acheivement for killing 100,000 enemies. I only got the 10,000 one.

I have lots to do in this game. If people are going to be upset that they have EVERYTHING done, there's not that many of them.

I appreciate your comment and thank you.
____________________________
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/story.html?story=18309
Quote:
Like Final Fantasy XI, the game specs will be extremely high for the time, but in about 5 years, an average machine can run it on max settings with little to no issues. Tanaka also expressed interest in making a benchmark program available.

FilthMcNasty wrote:
I endorse this thread.
#348 Nov 30 2011 at 4:12 PM Rating: Good
****
4,151 posts
Elionara wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Professor Dyrwydi wrote:
I trimmed down your post to address one issue that is inaccurate at it's core.

FilthMcNasty wrote:
People don't want to pay for a beta key and they definitely don't want to pay to subscribe to a beta test, especially when it's not really entertaining.


Black market trading of beta keys to developing games is a major deal. Keys, depending on the game, can run up to several hundred dollars - using SW:TOR and WoW expansion testings as my example here. Granted XIV has been out and f2p long enough that you may be right, some people may leave the game during the 8-10 months of monthly billed game play, but I assure you, I will not be the only person playing every month to play. Yes the game plays more like a beta than a released MMO should, but I'm fine with that, based on the coming changes in the next year.

I get that you want to put your foot down, plant your flag and make sure that everyone knows where you stand, but your broad-sweeping, outlandish, and at times comical attempts to demean FFXIV are getting loathsome. Keep to the fact or opinion, and you'll find a lot less push-back from other members of the community.


People pay for beta keys to games that have not yet released because they want to be the first to play or because they want to see what all the hype is about. That was gone for XIV over a year ago so I'm not sure why you're making this point. I know you trimmed down the post to save space, but in context it was regarding the current state of XIV and not other games.

I don't see anything outlandish or comical about it really. People don't want to pay for a game that isn't expected to be 'finished' until 2013.

Disclaimer: I am speaking about XIV and not any other game.



NO game is finished. Next patch XIV will be release ready. If games were finished why the **** do they still get updates? As of next patch the game will have substantially more than XI did at launch. People paid and played the **** out of it when it came out in Japan.


No one is debating whether or not it's finished. The title of the thread is pay or quit so the debate is over whether or not it's worth paying for. Most people here don't think it is or they'd rather wait until 2.0 to make that decision.

XI is a different beast because at the time there wasn't much like it and nearly nothing to compare it to. Now when you compare XIV to XI there are tons of things they could have but didn't improve upon and in some cases, made it worse.

Elionara wrote:
The two biggest complaints: Auction House, Player Search.

Those things are also on my list, but not even close to the top.

Performance needs huge tweaks across the board
UI is sloppy
Controls are getting better, but still horrible
Levequests need a major rework and more quest/story content
Auto-attack was not a fix for a poor battle system
DoL and DoH don't fit as classes
Not enough classes for a system that allows so much freedom in ability use

All of these things were more important to me than what you listed as the two biggest complaints.

As for the competition, there will always be someone who sets the standard and it's up to the rest to either do it differently, match it or go above and beyond. SE crafted a big pair of shoes but XIV didn't fill them for most people. SE touted this game as having a 'revolutionary' class/battle system, not the players. Wada himself stated that XIV would rival WoW so don't blame the players for the comparison.

Elionara wrote:
If XIV launched today, and we didn't have the FREE "beta" period for the last year; would people be complaining so much?

I don't think so.


Well it isn't representative of the entire playerbase, but according to the poll... yes. If XIV released today then ~60% of the people polled at least wouldn't play it. Would they complain? Who cares? The question is would they pay to play.

____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#349 Nov 30 2011 at 4:31 PM Rating: Default
**
924 posts
Poll? Zam Poll???

I know for a fact:
25 people in our ls
24 will pay
10 are registered on the official forums
3 post regularly
none use zam

118 people on my friends list. 2 use zam, half of them use official forums.

I'm not saying the poll data isn't valid. I am saying however when you put a poll in a troll; you get rolled.

Yes... said it.

If we want true results they just need to ad a popup ingame that you can't get rid of.

"We will be moving to the paid system in x weeks. Based on the current state of the game and announced updates are you willing to pay for this game?"

Simple.

You might say: "This doesn't account for people that actually want to play the game but won't because of X or Y."

All I can say is if you have a few reason's not to play, are they THAT large for you not to make some friends and enjoy what it does offer?

I haven't reached cap at all and it's fun. Is it fun for all? Probably not since alot of people want different things from the game.

SE will never please all of them, they only really have to please the majority.

We need another player poll from Yoshi. With direct and hard hitting questions.
____________________________
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/story.html?story=18309
Quote:
Like Final Fantasy XI, the game specs will be extremely high for the time, but in about 5 years, an average machine can run it on max settings with little to no issues. Tanaka also expressed interest in making a benchmark program available.

FilthMcNasty wrote:
I endorse this thread.
#350 Nov 30 2011 at 5:31 PM Rating: Excellent
****
4,151 posts
The majority would be the people who don't actively play XIV right now. There really isn't a good way to poll them, but their absence from the game up through 1.19 even though it has been free speaks volumes. Ultimately it will come down to how many new players will be welcomed and how many old players who left will come back, but I'm not certain I see that happening with 1.2 when it goes to subscription.
____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#351 Nov 30 2011 at 9:10 PM Rating: Good
***
2,202 posts
If FFXIV is going to be release worthy next month, then it really stands no chance againts Swotor :/

Edited by StateAlchemist (You had FFXI not FFXIV.) :)

Edited, Dec 9th 2011 8:29pm by StateAlchemist
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