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Disappointed in the WoW-ification of FFXIV...Follow

#1 Oct 14 2011 at 10:09 AM Rating: Default
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So after seeing some of the concept pictures of the new "2.0" I was struck at how very WoW like the interface was. Is this the dev team finally giving up? If they wanted to make a WoW-clone why is it going to take them 2 years? It's sad because I was actually starting to like the game a bit after 1.9 came out, but this has destroyed all desire to play this.

And it's not the only thing that's going to sting them. Another year for the PS3 version? I think someone will have to rewrite the definition in Webster's for "Simultaneous Release" which is what this was supposed to be. Then a year ago, the PS3 version was supposed to be out in March. Now it's a year+ away.

Words can't describe the epic fall of this game. I remember after E3 last year I was so pumped and exited to play this. Every single person I knew from XI was ready to move to it.

Here we are now a year after launch. The game still isn't finished, it's basically been in open beta for a year. They failed the PS3 fans so bad that by the time the game finally releases on the system, the PS3 will be on the downhill side of its life cycle. And to put salt in the wound, the game's direction is going to turn it into FF-WoW.

I'm sorry SE, but even longtime loyal fans have to say "Enough" at some point.
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#2 Oct 14 2011 at 10:29 AM Rating: Excellent
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For one, its not a WoW Clone. Sure this game uses "PROVEN GAMEPLAY MECHANICS" but that doesn't mean its a clone. The action bar is a proven gameplay mechanic, get over it. Why would they need to change it? FF11 already had alot of gameplay mechanics 'copied' over from Everquest. Did those need changing too? Why is it if FF14 uses some of the proven mechanics in WoW its now copying it and becomes a clone? The art style for 14 is completely different, the feeling, and job system, story all of it very different. I don't think this game is copy at all. I think you really got to look at the outline again because from what I can tell this game's future rocks and has the right mix of new and proven material.

If you want FF11, stay on FF11. Your like someone picking up any FPS now and saying oh this game totally a Halo clone, and I want to play a game as exciting as Doom 1 was. The Genre has changed! (Not saying Doom1 is bad, I loved it! But if I want that, ill just play Doom 1, I don't expect developers to throw away all the proven game mechanics discovered over the course of the years to go somewhere completely different and alienate all your potential customers)
#3 Oct 14 2011 at 10:29 AM Rating: Decent
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LOL.

Rebuilding the game takes no time. They can do it in a month, right?

Tell me something, have you ever worked on a coding project? Now tell me have you ever been given a half-finished coding project by someone else and been told to make it work?

You realize Yoshi's development team took over after Tanka's had done 5 years worth of coding and design. Do you understand how much time it would take to get to know there code and be able to make design changes successfully let alone break it down and rebuild it from the ground up?


As far as being a WoW clone.... you're judging this all based on "CONCEPT" art. Can you find the keyword in this statement?

So the UI being more friendly to PC users, better colors, drag and drop abilities, useful information and indicators makes this WoW-ish? I don't see any resemblance to WoW, and I play that game every now and then. Because FF is using things that have come to the MMO genre that have been successful (not exclusive to WoW) makes FF = WoW?

Blanket statement with no facts and judging based on concept art = fact. I love it. I just laugh.

Edited, Oct 14th 2011 12:47pm by RemVye
#4 Oct 14 2011 at 10:29 AM Rating: Good
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i looked at the concept and all i saw was a action bar that went square and added the option to throw up a second action bar every westernized mmo I've played had this option.

i prefer as minimal screen junk as possible. there are several things i wish i could turn off in XIV. i don't need a minimap, i don't need a constant reminder of how much exp i need to advance, i don't need to know what every action does while in combat, i don't need to be reminded that im doing a leve every time i do one. i don't need to see my receive/ send rate constantly.


all my UI concerns aside, as long as the game is fun, engaging, and entertaining I'll play it. give me a Challenge, not a chore.
#5 Oct 14 2011 at 10:30 AM Rating: Default
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I am so full of haterade for FFXIV but I think I am happy with the concepts shown today.
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#6 Oct 14 2011 at 10:49 AM Rating: Decent
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Beyond the action bar, I think the cross-realm LFG tool makes it pretty WoW-esque. Also, allowing third party add-ons--not that many MMOs do that besides WoW.

Maybe I'm in the minority (especially regarding LFG), but I don't hate those changes.
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#7 Oct 14 2011 at 10:56 AM Rating: Good
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yfaithfully wrote:
Beyond the action bar, I think the cross-realm LFG tool makes it pretty WoW-esque. Also, allowing third party add-ons--not that many MMOs do that besides WoW.

Maybe I'm in the minority (especially regarding LFG), but I don't hate those changes.


I don't understand how this makes it a bad game? LFG tool only helps you be able to complete content and find groups w/ spending hours to do so. One of the major complaints I see is "no one is ever doing XXXYYYZZ", there you go problem solved. This doesnt make the game WoW... it's a successful tool of the MMO genre.

How does third party addons make the game bad? So you can customize your UI the way you'd like it... wow that is a bad terrible idea? I just don't understand these complaints. No one has said anything about gameply, graphics, story, classes, basically the REAL game is nothing like WoW... you cite examples of tools that are becoming more and more common to all MMO's.



Edit:

In an ideal world... you wouldn't need the cross-server LFG tool because everyone would be on the same server. One server to hold them all! This isn't possible because of data constraints and overflow of people. Think about it maybe

Edited, Oct 14th 2011 1:00pm by RemVye
#8 Oct 14 2011 at 11:05 AM Rating: Good
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lol is wow your first mmo?

WoW's interface has been standard for a lot of korean/western MMOs before it. Not ALL of it, but it took the good parts of some games and mixed it with the other good parts of other games.

Instances and cross server events of any sort are trash though, worst thing ever used in an MMO.

Edited, Oct 14th 2011 1:06pm by FluttershyPony
#9 Oct 14 2011 at 11:10 AM Rating: Good
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FluttershyPony wrote:
lol is wow your first mmo?

WoW's interface has been standard for a lot of korean/western MMOs before it. Not ALL of it, but it took the good parts of some games and mixed it with the other good parts of other games.

Instances and cross server events of any sort are trash though, worst thing ever used in an MMO.

Edited, Oct 14th 2011 1:06pm by FluttershyPony



This x100. I think cross-server is useful because it allows you to find groups easier if you're alone but it does impact the community.

Instances are good for a few reasons but it seems like SE is at least mixing it up between outside-dungeons and instanced ones. Instances allow for a lot more dynamic look and feel, graphics, and events where as thats harder to implement in a seamless world.
#10 Oct 14 2011 at 11:15 AM Rating: Good
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RemVye wrote:
yfaithfully wrote:
Beyond the action bar, I think the cross-realm LFG tool makes it pretty WoW-esque. Also, allowing third party add-ons--not that many MMOs do that besides WoW.

Maybe I'm in the minority (especially regarding LFG), but I don't hate those changes.

How does third party addons make the game bad? So you can customize your UI the way you'd like it... wow that is a bad terrible idea? I just don't understand these complaints. No one has said anything about gameply, graphics, story, classes, basically the REAL game is nothing like WoW... you cite examples of tools that are becoming more and more common to all MMO's.

Edited, Oct 14th 2011 1:00pm by RemVye


Its why i was so happy to see it in the notes at long last grid may come to a ff game so i can heal and not jump through hops to do it
#11 Oct 14 2011 at 11:20 AM Rating: Default
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I got defaulted for saying LFG makes FFXIV WoW-esque? lol.

I dunno any MMO that does cross-shard LFG besides WoW. I actually like it. Maybe that's what I got defaulted for? But yeah, it's clearly following a move from the most popular MMO out there (which has been so successful they're following it up with a Looking for Raid tool, which many are predicting will crash and burn). I understand concerns though--it hurts immersion (all of a sudden you don't really need to interact with anyone in your world to conquer content that requires party play, which is weird), it can hurt the social aspects of the game (think people are quiet now? wait until they are literally NEVER shouting for groups) and it emphasizes running instances as a primary way of leveling and/or getting gear. The game essentially becomes Diablo during the leveling process, and potentially end-game.

No, I don't think the action bar is WoW-esque, but that's the point the OP was making and I'm not going to argue it because I never played Everquest or other pre-Blizzard MMOs.

As for add-ons, I like them, I think most do. The fear for purists and people who love FF art direction is that they'll become mandatory for good players, and will clutter up what they otherwise consider to be a unified, elegant UI. In WoW, for certain class roles it's hard to play in an end-game group without them (especially healers). It also means instant recounts after every battle--you might hear the word "viable" getting thrown around a lot, as in "recounts are showing that X class is no longer viable for running 40+ dungeons"). I suspect add-ons will be very helpful for certain DoH and DoHs, making running without them a way to really gimp your progression.
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#12 Oct 14 2011 at 11:27 AM Rating: Good
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yfaithfully wrote:
I got defaulted for saying LFG makes FFXIV WoW-esque? lol.

I dunno any MMO that does cross-shard LFG besides WoW. I actually like it. Maybe that's what I got defaulted for? But yeah, it's clearly following a move from the most popular MMO out there (which has been so successful they're following it up with a Looking for Raid tool, which many are predicting will crash and burn). I understand concerns though--it hurts immersion (all of a sudden you don't really need to interact with anyone in your world to conquer content that requires party play, which is weird), it can hurt the social aspects of the game (think people are quiet now? wait until they are literally NEVER shouting for groups) and it emphasizes running instances as a primary way of leveling and/or getting gear. The game essentially becomes Diablo during the leveling process, and potentially end-game.

No, I don't think the action bar is WoW-esque, but that's the point the OP was making and I'm not going to argue it because I never played Everquest or other pre-Blizzard MMOs.

As for add-ons, I like them, I think most do. The fear for purists and people who love FF art direction is that they'll become mandatory for good players, and will clutter up what they otherwise consider to be a unified, elegant UI. In WoW, for certain class roles it's hard to play in an end-game group without them (especially healers). It also means instant recounts after every battle--you might hear the word "viable" getting thrown around a lot, as in "recounts are showing that X class is no longer viable for running 40+ dungeons"). I suspect add-ons will be very helpful for certain DoH and DoHs, making running without them a way to really gimp your progression.



There is some truth to this. But that doesn't mean people will "never shout for parties". The LFG tool will be for instances. There is still going to be beastmen stronghold, XP parties, World NMs etc... that you can't form groups for outside of your server.

I hear you on the "this class is no longer viable" comment. But that's already happening... people use the FFXIV parser to gauge how useful classes are. Check out the setup for darkhold when it was released... 3 mages 4 archers and 1 glad. Why? because archers did the most damage. Now look at the setup for Ifrit... 4 lancers 3 mages 1 glad. Notice anything? Lancers do the most damage now so they are the ones to take. This is already happening.

The thing about FF games is that SE at least tries to maintain balance and each class has a different role. Their are support classes, damage class, nuke class, tank class... they all come together to form a solid party. SE is going to be reorganizing skills and abilities and I hope they are able to maintain the individuality and balance while they do it.

As for addons, you can play with out them.. even in WOW. I've healed raids before without them. They are there to make it more convient and easier and usually only the most hardcore of hardcores have so many addons and stuff that you can't see there screen. They aren't necessary but they can help. Sometimes they just change the look of your UI and don't add functionality.

Look at WoW's approach, a lot of the addons that were so popular WoW actually integrated into there game because it was obvious that everyone was using the addons. Basically what Im saying is that addons if they become popular can give developers helpful ideas to implement in their UI.

Edited, Oct 14th 2011 1:29pm by RemVye
#13 Oct 14 2011 at 11:31 AM Rating: Default
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the fact that they are allowing third party addons for the UI is about the only thing that may save that disgusting UI concept they showed...seriously WAAAY too much on screen there, hopefully with a third party UI I could remove most of that, especially things like damage and XP popups over my characters and floating healthbars, and the gil amount in the bottom left, the giant enemy health bar, pretty much all of the bloat needs to go for me to tolerate using a UI (no bloat while still functional though)
#14 Oct 14 2011 at 11:37 AM Rating: Good
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Finuve wrote:
the fact that they are allowing third party addons for the UI is about the only thing that may save that disgusting UI concept they showed...seriously WAAAY too much on screen there, hopefully with a third party UI I could remove most of that, especially things like damage and XP popups over my characters and floating healthbars, and the gil amount in the bottom left, the giant enemy health bar, pretty much all of the bloat needs to go for me to tolerate using a UI (no bloat while still functional though)



Take this with a grain of salt. It was a concept. I thought I read that you would have more control over the UI and what you want to be displayed.

I think that picture was trying to show like the most of the most and not the bare-minimum. They are trying to show what the UI 'could' have, and not the final product. Don't be so hasty to judge we won't know the final look until it comes closer.
#15 Oct 14 2011 at 11:55 AM Rating: Default
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RemVye wrote:
LFG tool only helps you be able to complete content and find groups w/ spending hours to do so. be a faceless douche to strangers, ninja loot without repercussions, drop (and run) parties without exchanging a single word, and have fewer meaningful interactions with players on your own server.


RemVye wrote:
How does third party addons make the game bad? So you can customize your UI the way you'd like it... [to track enmity for you, simplify bosses for you, modify maps for you, walk you through quests, and much more - all of which also creates a rift between the playerbase because it can never even be accessed by the very people FFXIV is depending upon for its success, PS3 players!]
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#16 Oct 14 2011 at 12:14 PM Rating: Good
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KaneKitty wrote:
RemVye wrote:
LFG tool only helps you be able to complete content and find groups w/ spending hours to do so. be a faceless douche to strangers, ninja loot without repercussions, drop (and run) parties without exchanging a single word, and have fewer meaningful interactions with players on your own server.


RemVye wrote:
How does third party addons make the game bad? So you can customize your UI the way you'd like it... [to track enmity for you, simplify bosses for you, modify maps for you, walk you through quests, and much more - all of which also creates a rift between the playerbase because it can never even be accessed by the very people FFXIV is depending upon for its success, PS3 players!]

But the game already does most of this as is.

I agree a side effect of the lfg tool can be what you said, but it doesn't have to be. Also only instances will be cross server. Not everything, exp party, strongholds,wnm, etc. and not everyone will use it. I would ask my ls and if no one wanted to, then use the lfg tool.

Its really up to the players to not be douches. Lol, I know...
#17 Oct 14 2011 at 12:20 PM Rating: Good
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Honestly, I think they are smart to put the LFG tool in. Sorry most normal people don't actually want to shout to get things done. It is annoying, boring and time consuming.

And given the population, well... they had best be making it easier for people to group up, right off the bat when they reboot, cause then even if the playerbase is modest we won't suffer from lack of people to party with.
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#18EmotionBlues, Posted: Oct 14 2011 at 12:29 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Your definition of normal is your definition for yourself. Don't lump "normal" people into a catagory based on what you like or want.
#19 Oct 14 2011 at 12:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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Olorinus wrote:
Honestly, I think they are smart to put the LFG tool in. Sorry most normal people don't actually want to shout to get things done. It is annoying, boring and time consuming.

And given the population, well... they had best be making it easier for people to group up, right off the bat when they reboot, cause then even if the playerbase is modest we won't suffer from lack of people to party with.



Yeah, I think one of the problems is you can't really go and do things and LFG at the same time.. You have to be in the city /shouting

Maybe there are 30 people right outside the city who want to party but don't know that you're looking. That's a shame but it's just bad design from Tanaka that got carried over and can't be fixed due to database crap.

I would have loved to be a fly on the wall during the 5 years of development... whoever decided on some of these things better have been fired.
#20 Oct 14 2011 at 12:35 PM Rating: Decent
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Yeah, I think one of the problems is you can't really go and do things and LFG at the same time.. You have to be in the city /shouting

Maybe there are 30 people right outside the city who want to party but don't know that you're looking. That's a shame but it's just bad design from Tanaka that got carried over and can't be fixed due to database crap.

I would have loved to be a fly on the wall during the 5 years of development... whoever decided on some of these things better have been fired.


That's what the party flag feature was in FFXI. You gave an indicator you were interested in a group (or not, in some cases) - with an improved UI and search feature it would be simple to have a system that looks up people with their 'flags' set or a general search to politely ask people who may want to party.

The fault is that feature is non-existant in FFXIV currently. LFG is an answer in a way - but the wrong way to go about it I think. Same-server LFG would be less bad honestly - but a Party Flag type feature is 100% essential as well I think.
#21 Oct 14 2011 at 12:41 PM Rating: Good
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I just enjoyed these conversations in XI "Hey man great partying with you need a linkshell?" "sure" "Hey guys welcome <name>"

its pretty much the basis on XIs community growing, ppl group up, become friends, invite to linkshells, with this system I foresee "Hey man great partying with you need a linkshell?" "I'm not on your server, later never talk to you again"

and that worries me, I'm still playing XI 7 years later in large parts due to the sheer number of ppl I still talk to

but this is something that if implemented properly could help casuals while still being shunned by most
#22 Oct 14 2011 at 12:41 PM Rating: Good
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EmotionBlues wrote:


That's what the party flag feature was in FFXI. You gave an indicator you were interested in a group (or not, in some cases) - with an improved UI and search feature it would be simple to have a system that looks up people with their 'flags' set or a general search to politely ask people who may want to party.


except it didn't/doesn't work in XI either. I dare you, go play with your flag up by yourself. Unless you are a 90-95 WHM, BLM, or WAR you will be playing for days if not weeks/months before getting an invite. Maybe if you're above 85 you would get an exp party invite, but no one is sending out invites to anything that matters.

Do you want to do dynamis or take down an NM? guess what - you're shouting in PJ or answering a shout in PJ or you are soloing or not going at all - cause no one - NO ONE uses the LFG system to organize real events, or even exp these days (outside of maybe looking for a whm)

Sorry, that is archaic and it just won't do these days. If you want a system like XI's system - play XI and get shouting.

Edited, Oct 14th 2011 11:41am by Olorinus
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#23 Oct 14 2011 at 12:45 PM Rating: Default
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Olorinus wrote:

EmotionBlues wrote:


That's what the party flag feature was in FFXI. You gave an indicator you were interested in a group (or not, in some cases) - with an improved UI and search feature it would be simple to have a system that looks up people with their 'flags' set or a general search to politely ask people who may want to party.


except it didn't/doesn't work in XI either. I dare you, go play with your flag up by yourself. Unless you are a 90-95 WHM, BLM, or WAR you will be playing for days if not weeks/months before getting an invite. Maybe if you're above 85 you would get an exp party invite, but no one is sending out invites to anything that matters.

Do you want to do dynamis or take down an NM? guess what - you're shouting in PJ or answering a shout in PJ or you are soloing or not going at all - cause no one - NO ONE uses the LFG system to organize real events, or even exp these days (outside of maybe looking for a whm)

Sorry, that is archaic and it just won't do these days. If you want a system like XI's system - play XI and get shouting.

Edited, Oct 14th 2011 11:41am by Olorinus
any job above 75 it generally takes about 2 seconds to get an abyssea exp party invite, also FFXI's party search worked really well for VNMs when they were introduced, people put up search comments like "Trial 1 Black Triple Stars 1/3" and get invited by others doing the same VNM

now this search system failed for the most part but conceptually it is excellent. I could mock something up so I might later, but imagine taking those concepts and you putup a search and filter for what you want to to, drop down 1 you select Instanced Raids then a followup drop down you select Toto-Rak then someone trying to build a party selects to search for people that are filtered on Toto-Rak and sends them invites

it could work quite well
#24 Oct 14 2011 at 12:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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Doing something different for the sake of being different is foolish, especially in a consumer product.

You only do something different if it's an improvement. Nothing in FFXIV's current UI is an improvement over WoW's UI for a mouse and keyboard user. Nothing.

WoW's UI is an iterative design based on previous MMO UIs compounded with various user addons over the years. It's a gold standard for MMO UIs. To me this new UI looks to reproduce that functionality while still bearing a distinctly Final Fantasy feel. That's what people want.

The UI should never get in the way of play. I look forward to seeing how the UI works for gamepad users like myself. But I am liking the changes big time. A solid UI that is based on the iterations of previous MMOs doesn't mean the game is going to feel like WoW.
#25 Oct 14 2011 at 12:50 PM Rating: Good
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RamseySylph wrote:
Doing something different for the sake of being different is foolish, especially in a consumer product.

You only do something different if it's an improvement. Nothing in FFXIV's current UI is an improvement over WoW's UI for a mouse and keyboard user. Nothing.

WoW's UI is an iterative design based on previous MMO UIs compounded with various user addons over the years. It's a gold standard for MMO UIs. To me this new UI looks to reproduce that functionality while still bearing a distinctly Final Fantasy feel. That's what people want.

The UI should never get in the way of play. I look forward to seeing how the UI works for gamepad users like myself. But I am liking the changes big time. A solid UI that is based on the iterations of previous MMOs doesn't mean the game is going to feel like WoW.

bolded, LOL thats my biggest problem with the mocked UI, and also i hate WoW's UI because I like to play MMOs witha controller, luckily square already said that the UI changes will work KB/M or K or controller
#26 Oct 14 2011 at 1:01 PM Rating: Decent
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I just enjoyed these conversations in XI "Hey man great partying with you need a linkshell?" "sure" "Hey guys welcome <name>"

its pretty much the basis on XIs community growing, ppl group up, become friends, invite to linkshells, with this system I foresee "Hey man great partying with you need a linkshell?" "I'm not on your server, later never talk to you again"

and that worries me, I'm still playing XI 7 years later in large parts due to the sheer number of ppl I still talk to

but this is something that if implemented properly could help casuals while still being shunned by most


Right.

It removes the socialization from grouping up to do stuff.

That's why I think same-server LFG would be quite good because: people are still accountable for their behavior and actions to other people on their server, it promotes dialogue during/after lthe event and allows you to meet new people who you can actually continue to socialize with/befriend after your group, etc.

Quote:
except it didn't/doesn't work in XI either. I dare you, go play with your flag up by yourself. Unless you are a 90-95 WHM, BLM, or WAR you will be playing for days if not weeks/months before getting an invite. Maybe if you're above 85 you would get an exp party invite, but no one is sending out invites to anything that matters.

Do you want to do dynamis or take down an NM? guess what - you're shouting in PJ or answering a shout in PJ or you are soloing or not going at all - cause no one - NO ONE uses the LFG system to organize real events, or even exp these days (outside of maybe looking for a whm)

Sorry, that is archaic and it just won't do these days. If you want a system like XI's system - play XI and get shouting.


I wasn't quoting the success (or not) of the FFXI party system - I was giving an example how it worked in that game. The FFXI party search feature was for making XP parties primarily, wasn't it?

The debate isn't about FFXI's sytem - it's about the validity of the LFG tool. All you're doing to do is 'dare' me to play a game I haven't played since Kupo de'tat? I have no idea what it's like now and I wasn't commenting on the existing state of FFXI.

All I said was that the LFG isn't a great thing and it has a lot of negative aspects in the manner they're talking about implimenting it. In fact I just said a same-server LFG would be a better idea.

The LFG tool is not I want, personally, unless it's same-server. Same-server LFG would help promote the community that I am fond of in FF games (which largely differs from other MMOs, in my opinion); The LFG isn't some magic button that fixes grouping problems either. Sure, clicking a button is EASIER then shouting or putting stuff together yourself - is that what people really want? Just to not have to do anything? Maybe, I'm not sure. There's still a lot of inherit issues with a LFG system - and there's issues with a FFXI style system as well.
#27 Oct 14 2011 at 1:34 PM Rating: Good
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EmotionBlues wrote:
Sure, clicking a button is EASIER then shouting or putting stuff together yourself - is that what people really want? Just to not have to do anything?


No, people want to play the game - and most people consider the GAME to be the part where you actually DO stuff, not the part where you spend an hour shouting and hoping that someone will join your group.

AKA a lot of us have lives and want to spend our limited play time actually playing the game, not managing, organizing and begging people to help us.
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When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#28 Oct 14 2011 at 1:37 PM Rating: Decent
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They failed and can't afford to take more gambles. If copying wow works then more power to them, they are taking action on possible low playernumbers too which again is a good idea.
#29 Oct 14 2011 at 2:01 PM Rating: Decent
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Usually I'm the one to say that the game could use all the players it can get, but in this case I'm sure nothing of value was lost.

They're creating what is almost a completely new game. It's obvious they want to wait until that new game is complete before releasing the PS3 version and making an impression on those potential new players. Releasing before it's ready would be just making the same mistake twice, so why would you complain about that? And a FFXI player with a rabid hate of WoW, how original.

Edited, Oct 14th 2011 4:07pm by Redyoshi
#30 Oct 14 2011 at 2:24 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
No, people want to play the game - and most people consider the GAME to be the part where you actually DO stuff, not the part where you spend an hour shouting and hoping that someone will join your group.

AKA a lot of us have lives and want to spend our limited play time actually playing the game, not managing, organizing and begging people to help us.


Why would you cut off the end of what I said also?

Quote:
Maybe, I'm not sure. There's still a lot of inherit issues with a LFG system - and there's issues with a FFXI style system as well.


And also, please read:

Quote:
All I said was that the LFG isn't a great thing and it has a lot of negative aspects in the manner they're talking about implimenting it. In fact I just said a same-server LFG would be a better idea.


My question wasn't posed as a sarcastic job - it was literal and honest. Do people want that? You ignored the entirety of my post and picked out ONE STATEMENT TO COMMENT on and take the rest out of context. I SAID:

Quote:
All I said was that the LFG isn't a great thing and it has a lot of negative aspects in the manner they're talking about implimenting it. In fact I just said a same-server LFG would be a better idea.


Again, so you can take something out of context again.

Since you're all about the LFG Tool - why don't you explain your experiencing in using one?

I'll give mine:

I play WoW (currently) - and I am a max level tank. For those unfamiliar - in a LFG system there is a massive disparity between Tank/Heal and DPS role availability. Tanks recieve near instant queues - healers have a slight delay at time and DPS are shafted into oblivion with wait times.

In fact, in WoW (which I may add has a large population if you weren't aware) - they had to add INCENTIVES for Tanks and Healers to join the LFG tool because it was taking DPS 45 minutes OR MORE to get into A SINGLE DUNGEON that lasted SHORTER then the amount of time you spent in queue. Now those queues times range from 15-30 minutes depending on when you're playing.

It's fairly common for people to randomly drop if they don't get something they want from an early objective - it's also not unheard of for tanks to join and go AFK to troll DPS and Healers who had to wait - and they can do this because of cross-realm queues where you don't care what happens because you'll never see the person again.

Before I go on - let me say that most people I know don't like the LFG system and folks typically complain about it due to: wait times, ninja looters, griefs and terrible players. So MOST people I know form their own groups anyway and queue into the system since it will just teleport you there and you get all the extra "bonuses" from using the LFG system.

Now - the quality of type of player you get in your queue is usually really broad. No matter how geared I was when I used the queue as a tank - there would be groups of people who were just... bad. That would result in failure. If you're a DPS and you get into a terrible group that can't do anything - you drop and wait another 30 minutes and hope the next is better. You can't control who's in your group at all. Typically, nobody really socializes in groups other then to blast someone for being bad or the "afk" or "brb" or something of that nature (although I've got some super friendly folks before truth be told) - but it's normally silent.

The real benefit (questionable) is not having to actually travel to the dungeon area. You can just sit in 1 place forever and queue into content and never leave. That's why, expect for questing, the majority of WoW is barren except the main cities. There's no reason to leave - you can do almost everything you'd want in one place. You don't even seen random people going by as you level typically (except other levelers) - because there's no reason too.

Regardless, I never stated something like a same-server LFG would not be useful, I said it has a lot of negative things that make me dislike it (hence why I don't do dungeons in WoW, I log in for raid night and Arena PVP only besides managing AH items) - but continue to completely overlook the entirety of my posts and pick out comments that fuel your reasoning.

edit:

I will also say that the FFXIV development team is intelligent enough to avoid some of these pitfalls, especially regarding how loot is handled (ninja looting is terrible in WoW) - and I do not completely discount something like a same-server LFG tool to assist for instanced content. Although I dislike the thought of losing the ability to explore open world dungeons - I just want to point out that a LFG tool is not some magical fix to inherit grouping issues and it presents some unique problems of it's own.

Edited, Oct 14th 2011 4:39pm by EmotionBlues
#31 Oct 14 2011 at 2:36 PM Rating: Decent
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Posts like this make me a really angry person.
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#32 Oct 14 2011 at 2:46 PM Rating: Decent
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RemVye wrote:
You realize Yoshi's development team took over after Tanka's had done 5 years worth of coding and design.

You realize that most of the coding was outsourced to China right?

RemVye wrote:
Blanket statement with no facts and judging based on concept art = fact. I love it. I just laugh.


The Ifrit battle mechanics were ripped straight out of WoW. Fire on the ground, adds that when defeated weaken a bosses attack and even the 'Frosthowl' charge move. They are also adding cross server grouping. They might as well just go ahead and call it the dungeon finder. You'll probably have trouble finding anyone to argue with you that the UI needs an overhaul, but the future implementation of this will allow for /gasp add-ons.

More like WoW, 'nuff said.

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30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#33 Oct 14 2011 at 2:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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To those worried about cross server LFG, you concerns are valid.

The anti-social nature that cross server LFG creates in games like WoW though, is a compounded problem, it's not just the cross server LFG that makes the experience the way it is. It's also the pace of the content, and fact that there is no actual reason to communicate with anyone. No need to discuss strategies, skill chains, etc.

As long as the content is paced acceptably, and there is a level of communication that must be achieved between the players, it won't be too bad.

Hopefully the LFG system will include options for same server, and cross server, and/or look at your local server first before pairing you with cross server players. It would also be nice if it was less pronounced, and allowed you to simply play with friends from other servers when you run dungeons.

FilthMcNasty wrote:
RemVye wrote:
You realize Yoshi's development team took over after Tanka's had done 5 years worth of coding and design.

You realize that most of the coding was outsourced to China right?

RemVye wrote:
Blanket statement with no facts and judging based on concept art = fact. I love it. I just laugh.


The Ifrit battle mechanics were ripped straight out of WoW. Fire on the ground, adds that when defeated weaken a bosses attack and even the 'Frosthowl' charge move. They are also adding cross server grouping. They might as well just go ahead and call it the dungeon finder. You'll probably have trouble finding anyone to argue with you that the UI needs an overhaul, but the future implementation of this will allow for /gasp add-ons.

More like WoW, 'nuff said.



You're an idiot? WoW did not invent areas appearing on the ground to indicate damage or some effect about to occur... it's been around since, well since, forever? I'm sure you can find games on the NES that have boss fights like this. Also charging attacks were invented by WoW?... Right.

Also "the coding" whatever you seem to think that actually means, has not been outsourced.
#34 Oct 14 2011 at 2:59 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
To those worried about cross server LFG, you concerns are valid.

The anti-social nature that cross server LFG creates in games like WoW though, is a compounded problem, it's not just the cross server LFG that makes the experience the way it is. It's also the pace of the content, and fact that there is no actual reason to communicate with anyone. No need to discuss strategies, skill chains, etc.

As long as the content is paced acceptably, and there is a level of communication that must be achieved between the players, it won't be too bad.

Hopefully the LFG system will include options for same server, and cross server, and/or look at your local server first before pairing you with cross server players. It would also be nice if it was less pronounced, and allowed you to simply play with friends from other servers when you run dungeons.


You know that makes me think of another thing:

What do they do about multi-language issues? NA/JP/EU groups?
#35FilthMcNasty, Posted: Oct 14 2011 at 3:42 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) First of all, who ****** in your cheerios? Wasn't even having discussion with you, yet you feel the need to start your argument of my statement(which you obviously didn't understand) with a personal attack. Real mature.
#36 Oct 14 2011 at 3:51 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm just cracking up over here because all the die hard fans that were bashing Rift about *coping Wow* because UI, LFG cross server stuff, and quests. Are now praising FFXIV for doing it. White knight = a white knight...I will never understand this
#37 Oct 14 2011 at 4:12 PM Rating: Decent
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RamseySylph wrote:
Also "the coding" whatever you seem to think that actually means, has not been outsourced.


Almost forgot this gem. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coding I think you know **** well what it means. You suck at comprehension, but I give you more credit than being stupid. This is also old news, but relevant due to the new changes salvaging what they can from "the coding" they are obviously having issues with and merging it with 2.0 next year.


Edited, Oct 14th 2011 6:13pm by FilthMcNasty
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#38 Oct 14 2011 at 4:17 PM Rating: Good
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Yeah, why would any company want to take a page or two out of Blizzard's playbook? They only measure their playerbase in millions, right? Drop in the bucket.
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#39 Oct 14 2011 at 4:18 PM Rating: Decent
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wouldn't any company rather have 30K zombies who will pay to play beta vs millions of subscribers who will just whine if the devs mess up?
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#40 Oct 14 2011 at 4:54 PM Rating: Good
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Olorinus wrote:
wouldn't any company rather have 30K $40,000 per month zombies who will pay to play beta vs millions of subscribers $13,000,000 per millions per month who will just whine if the devs mess up?
As a company who's goal is, ultimately, making money?

And we both know that the 30k are just as whiny as the millions of zombies if their games' developers mess up.


Edited, Oct 14th 2011 6:59pm by lolgaxe
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#41 Oct 14 2011 at 5:18 PM Rating: Decent
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lolgaxe wrote:


As a company who's goal is, ultimately, making money?



Oh, from the way they treat people on the official forums I thought their goal was to have a very small group of rabid fanatics adore their every move.


Edited, Oct 14th 2011 4:19pm by Olorinus
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#42 Oct 14 2011 at 6:51 PM Rating: Decent
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SE's problem in this equation: they had blizzard's swagger but not the millions of subs to support it.
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#43 Oct 14 2011 at 8:44 PM Rating: Good
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The original FFXIV design, of course, couldn't have been farther from a Blizzard product if they had set out to make it so. Truly unique, whimsy, elegance. Unfortunately, that went for its commercial prospects as well, and playability and polish. It was a failure.

The new team's job isn't to create a fantastic new game, it's to repair a sinking ship. Sometimes the easiest way to do that is kick everyone off, scrap it, and build from scratch using the most reliable design you can. They're not going for innovation any more.
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#44 Oct 14 2011 at 8:54 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm sure there will be ways to create a party without using the cross-server tools. So people who want to find a party strictly in their own community I think can. And people who just want to party regardless will be able to now too. I remember many times waiting in Jeuno for sometimes a whole day for a party, and during times like this I wouldn't mind partying with someone on another server. I think alot of people who choose this option anyways will be the type with little time and more casual player anyways. Not 'hard-core'.

Besides I think the "Free Companies" will encourage alot of local communities. The idea to be able to summon primals in them is awesome and this is probably the number one feature I'm excited about. I can't wait to start a Free Company with my friends.
#45 Oct 14 2011 at 9:01 PM Rating: Good
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Olorinus wrote:
Oh, from the way they treat people on the official forums I thought their goal was to have a very small group of rabid fanatics adore their every move.


That's my goal, at least.
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#46 Oct 14 2011 at 9:02 PM Rating: Good
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Mathisyn wrote:
So after seeing some of the concept pictures of the new "2.0" I was struck at how very WoW like the interface was. Is this the dev team finally giving up? If they wanted to make a WoW-clone why is it going to take them 2 years?


It's called desperation.
____________________________
Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.


I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#47 Oct 15 2011 at 1:59 AM Rating: Good
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The one thing I never thought I'd see SE give in to was add-ons. The fat lady has sung.
#48 Oct 15 2011 at 2:02 AM Rating: Decent
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Buttsniffa wrote:
The one thing I never thought I'd see SE give in to was add-ons. The fat lady has sung.


Admission that players can develop their games better than they can. Finally some recognition Smiley: rolleyes
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#49 Oct 15 2011 at 6:26 PM Rating: Decent
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It would not surprise me if the add ons they are talking about use an internal scripting language rather than being external programs. This way they could be used across all platforms. I've seen this method used before with Lightwave 3D to build cross platform plugins using an C like language Newtek developed called LScript. You could build plugins that performed complex operations and which had their own on screen widgets and menus (either floating or integrated into the UI) And they would work on any version of Lightwave regardless of platform and OS.

Edited, Oct 15th 2011 9:27pm by Lobivopis
____________________________
Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.


I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#50 Oct 15 2011 at 6:41 PM Rating: Decent
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3,962 posts
Lobivopis wrote:
It would not surprise me if the add ons they are talking about use an internal scripting language rather than being external programs. This way they could be used across all platforms. I've seen this method used before with Lightwave 3D to build cross platform plugins using an C like language Newtek developed called LScript. You could build plugins that performed complex operations and which had their own on screen widgets and menus (either floating or integrated into the UI) And they would work on any version of Lightwave regardless of platform and OS.

Edited, Oct 15th 2011 9:27pm by Lobivopis


They specified the PS3 version won't have support for add-ons... unfortunately. Which leads me to believe they'll just be LUA with access to certain parts of the game data, stuff that's already accessible by the default UI. So add-ons will probably be limited to changing the flavor of the UI and making things more intuitive and convenient for PC players.

Personally I just hope the default UI is solid for a gamepad player, and I think it will be, the only real hang ups I currently have using my PS3 controller are not with the UI structure but with the slow rate at which it responds during trades and vendoring. Speed that sucker up and I'd be fine more or less. And give me a few more options to adjust size, such as the party health bar sizes, etc.

Oh and targeting, honestly why we can't simply hit a button to swap between a list of enemies and a list of party members, by name, as you could in FFXII to target enemies is beyond me. I'd like default (world) left/right targeting, then hit a button to swap to a list view. It would make it a lot easier to target specific enemies in a jumble.

Edited, Oct 15th 2011 5:42pm by RamseySylph
#51 Oct 15 2011 at 7:50 PM Rating: Good
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Actually I'm happy with 99% of things in the concept arts, or pictures, or whatever. The only thing that I have a strong opinion against is the user add-ons.

Reason being is that I could have sworn I have read some WoW developer saying that their allowing of add-ons make balancing content extremely hard. A boss that's a challenge for people without add ons is stupidly easy for people with the right add-ons. I'm not sure how it is in WoW, but I don't want to practically be forced to use third party add ons so I can spam one button to automatically find a guy in a 40 (?) man raid who has a curse debuff from the boss so I cast my decurse spell on him automatically (That's what I've seen my friend did).

Any WoW players can attest to that?


EDIT: Never mind this post. I'm making a new thread since it's kinda a new topic altogether.

Edited, Oct 15th 2011 9:51pm by Enfid

Edited, Oct 15th 2011 10:12pm by Enfid
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