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Disappointed in the WoW-ification of FFXIV...Follow

#52 Oct 15 2011 at 8:34 PM Rating: Decent
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Enfid wrote:
Actually I'm happy with 99% of things in the concept arts, or pictures, or whatever. The only thing that I have a strong opinion against is the user add-ons.

Reason being is that I could have sworn I have read some WoW developer saying that their allowing of add-ons make balancing content extremely hard. A boss that's a challenge for people without add ons is stupidly easy for people with the right add-ons. I'm not sure how it is in WoW, but I don't want to practically be forced to use third party add ons so I can spam one button to automatically find a guy in a 40 (?) man raid who has a curse debuff from the boss so I cast my decurse spell on him automatically (That's what I've seen my friend did).

Any WoW players can attest to that?

Edited, Oct 15th 2011 9:51pm by Enfid


It depends on how much of the API add-on creators have access to, being a Japanese company, and one with hesitance to even implement add-ons (I am sure it was a hot debate) it's likely they'll give us less access to the API.

You're probably thinking of the various healing addons they have in WoW, where you can rig a spell to a mouse click, and then click on a player's health bar to cast it. Thus you can dispel status effects with a single click, instead of pressing a key then clicking.

For bosses they have Deadly Boss Mods, which simply yell at you if you're "standing in the fire" and warn you when an ability is about to activate. In reality, as long as SE designs encounters well, something like DBM won't really make a difference for experience players, it will simply make it obvious to players who haven't done the fight before what to do.

There needs to be some clear way to see that a boss is activating an ability, or casting a spell and what that spell or ability is in the UI. In addition, there need to be "tells" before a boss is about to activate a skill. At that point something like DBM really isn't all that useful.
#53 Oct 16 2011 at 11:17 AM Rating: Decent
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EmotionBlues wrote:
[quote]
I play WoW (currently) - and I am a max level tank. For those unfamiliar - in a LFG system there is a massive disparity between Tank/Heal and DPS role availability. Tanks recieve near instant queues - healers have a slight delay at time and DPS are shafted into oblivion with wait times.



Isn't that a function of the role population rather than the lfg system? By this I mean that there are simply fewer people who play tanks and healers vs those who play dps. To me, that is a moot point towards the lfg system and more on the flaws of the "holy trinity" system.

Regardless of the system in place, unless a games party structure either:
a) does not have the "holy trinity" or
b) has a dynamic party size which allows for role population balances to take place (which i would imagine is not practical at all)
c) has an equal role population for the specified party size

you will always see the lesser played roles getting groups easier than the more popular roles.
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#54 Oct 16 2011 at 11:43 AM Rating: Excellent
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FFXI had the "Holy quadrilateral" system, let's not forget "Support" anyways, even without an automated dungeon queue system, when it came to party content, as a Red Mage I was so in demand that during the height of ToAU I would get PT invites before the server message appeared.

Availability and demand for roles is a totally different issue than an dungeon matchmaking system.
#55 Oct 16 2011 at 1:35 PM Rating: Good
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It would be even worse if Tanks, Healers, and Support were the popular classes. A party has (in WoW) 3/5 Damage dealers, and only one tank and one healer; in FFXI the party would still be at least half damage dealers, and sometimes more.

Yes, damaging classes' queue times and invite rates are comparatively poor, but at least they're competing for several available spots in each party. If there were as many tanks as DDs, you'd have ~300% more people unable to get a party.
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#56 Oct 16 2011 at 1:53 PM Rating: Decent
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I think the big problem with WoW's classes is that every healer can also be a damage dealer, as can every tank. While the ratio of potential members is correct (1.5 times as many DD as Tank + Healer), Blizzard did not consider the number of potential tanks and healers removed from those roles via their ability to damage.

Imagine how hard it would have been to start a party in FFXI if every Red Mage had the option to ascend the "Mystic Sword" tree, or if every Paladin could have chosen to go "Righteous Damage." Well, we'd have far fewer tanks, supports, and healers, and they would be competing with other damage dealers! Thus the problem is twofold, and that's why getting a party as DD is so tough in WoW.

(sorry for probably posting one right after the other :P)
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"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#57 Oct 16 2011 at 2:14 PM Rating: Decent
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KacesofCaitsith wrote:

c) has an equal role population for the specified party size


KaneKitty wrote:
It would be even worse if Tanks, Healers, and Support were the popular classes. A party has (in WoW) 3/5 Damage dealers, and only one tank and one healer; in FFXI the party would still be at least half damage dealers, and sometimes more.

Yes, damaging classes' queue times and invite rates are comparatively poor, but at least they're competing for several available spots in each party. If there were as many tanks as DDs, you'd have ~300% more people unable to get a party.


Bolded for restatement. If you have a party of 5 with 3 dps, 1 tank and 1 healer you ideally want 60 dps, 20 tanks and 20 healers.

You do not want 40 tanks, 40 dps and 20 healers. You want tanks and healers to be more popular, but within the bounds of your party configuration.

If you add support into the mix, it just adjusts the prime balance you want. That is why I said it is not a reflection on the lfg system but more onto the population balances and the flaws of a "holy trinity" or "holy quadrangle" setup.


Edit:

Btw, I'm pretty sure that blizzard is aware of how to balance the jobs in terms of talent trees to roles considering they essentially forced players to specialize in one tree at a time (ie. no hybrid builds) and they monitor these things fairly in-depth.

Edited, Oct 16th 2011 4:16pm by KacesofCaitsith
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#58 Oct 16 2011 at 4:56 PM Rating: Decent
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KacesofCaitsith wrote:
Btw, I'm pretty sure that blizzard is aware of how to balance the jobs in terms of talent trees to roles considering they essentially forced players to specialize in one tree at a time (ie. no hybrid builds) and they monitor these things fairly in-depth.


Well it doesn't seem balanced to fit a ratio of 3/5 - 1/5 - 1/5 if 100% of the classes can fill a DD role but only a few can tank and/or heal, and if those rare classes can choose not to queue for those rare roles and instead opt to place themselves in the DD pool. It seems as though Blizzard simply created an inherent surplus of damage, that's all.
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"... he called to himself a wizard, named Gallery, hoping by this means to escape the paying of the fifteen hundred crowns..." (Machen 15)

"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#59 Oct 16 2011 at 6:50 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Well it doesn't seem balanced to fit a ratio of 3/5 - 1/5 - 1/5 if 100% of the classes can fill a DD role but only a few can tank and/or heal, and if those rare classes can choose not to queue for those rare roles and instead opt to place themselves in the DD pool. It seems as though Blizzard simply created an inherent surplus of damage, that's all.


There are 10 classes in wow, with 30 talent tree total - which makes for technically 30 individual classes.

Of those 30 there are 4 tanks, 4 healers and 22 dps. This leads to a 13%,13% and 73% class mix which is pretty close to the 20%, 20% 60% that is needed for complete balance. It is not spot on, but it is not as bad as you make it out to be.

The problem is simply that people do not want to play tanks or healers as much as they do dps. That is a pretty universal thing in mmo's.
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#60 Oct 16 2011 at 7:19 PM Rating: Default
I'm going to give 2.0 some time...but if I'm not used to the new changes, I'm not paying to play this mess. And I TOTALLY and COMPLETELY agree on the WoWification. The only things they have kept are the Japanese reward system for working as a collective--bonus points up the assets for working in hive mode as opposed to solo and life-like characters rather than toons, which I do still appreciate but can find on Aion and elsewhere. The new team took over and took the game in a completely different direction than the original concept--but once they start charging me money to play I think I'm done until they get their collective act together...IF that time comes. I just don't see how it's savable now. The WoW-ites are thrilled, and the FF purists who paid attention to what was PROMISED are not. That's just how it is and the complaint thread is elsewhere I guess. I had come to expect so much more from this brand, and the initial gaming experience was SO PRIMO! It was initially going in the perfect direction and I think they sadly let a bunch of WoW-bots mislead them in the current direction. But I'm not ready to give up yet because that leaves me with nothing left to play because they've also mucked up XI. I can't blame it on growing up either b/c I was an adult coming into gaming when XI came out. I haven't changed, SE certainly hasn't changed (aggravating and short-cutting as ever), but the gaming experience has. I really do hope they find a way to salvage something here, but I see a massive die-off coming if they think they can start charging NOW, as in next month. That is wayyyyy too soon. A lot of people will drop. That is not a complaint, that's advice from an adult player.

Mathisyn wrote:
So after seeing some of the concept pictures of the new "2.0" I was struck at how very WoW like the interface was. Is this the dev team finally giving up? If they wanted to make a WoW-clone why is it going to take them 2 years? It's sad because I was actually starting to like the game a bit after 1.9 came out, but this has destroyed all desire to play this.

And it's not the only thing that's going to sting them. Another year for the PS3 version? I think someone will have to rewrite the definition in Webster's for "Simultaneous Release" which is what this was supposed to be. Then a year ago, the PS3 version was supposed to be out in March. Now it's a year+ away.

Words can't describe the epic fall of this game. I remember after E3 last year I was so pumped and exited to play this. Every single person I knew from XI was ready to move to it.

Here we are now a year after launch. The game still isn't finished, it's basically been in open beta for a year. They failed the PS3 fans so bad that by the time the game finally releases on the system, the PS3 will be on the downhill side of its life cycle. And to put salt in the wound, the game's direction is going to turn it into FF-WoW.

I'm sorry SE, but even longtime loyal fans have to say "Enough" at some point.

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#61 Oct 16 2011 at 9:38 PM Rating: Excellent
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ChelleFemreal wrote:
I'm going to give 2.0 some time...but if I'm not used to the new changes, I'm not paying to play this mess. And I TOTALLY and COMPLETELY agree on the WoWification. The only things they have kept are the Japanese reward system for working as a collective--bonus points up the assets for working in hive mode as opposed to solo and life-like characters rather than toons, which I do still appreciate but can find on Aion and elsewhere. The new team took over and took the game in a completely different direction than the original concept--but once they start charging me money to play I think I'm done until they get their collective act together...IF that time comes. I just don't see how it's savable now. The WoW-ites are thrilled, and the FF purists who paid attention to what was PROMISED are not. That's just how it is and the complaint thread is elsewhere I guess. I had come to expect so much more from this brand, and the initial gaming experience was SO PRIMO! It was initially going in the perfect direction and I think they sadly let a bunch of WoW-bots mislead them in the current direction. But I'm not ready to give up yet because that leaves me with nothing left to play because they've also mucked up XI. I can't blame it on growing up either b/c I was an adult coming into gaming when XI came out. I haven't changed, SE certainly hasn't changed (aggravating and short-cutting as ever), but the gaming experience has. I really do hope they find a way to salvage something here, but I see a massive die-off coming if they think they can start charging NOW, as in next month. That is wayyyyy too soon. A lot of people will drop. That is not a complaint, that's advice from an adult player.

Mathisyn wrote:
So after seeing some of the concept pictures of the new "2.0" I was struck at how very WoW like the interface was. Is this the dev team finally giving up? If they wanted to make a WoW-clone why is it going to take them 2 years? It's sad because I was actually starting to like the game a bit after 1.9 came out, but this has destroyed all desire to play this.

And it's not the only thing that's going to sting them. Another year for the PS3 version? I think someone will have to rewrite the definition in Webster's for "Simultaneous Release" which is what this was supposed to be. Then a year ago, the PS3 version was supposed to be out in March. Now it's a year+ away.

Words can't describe the epic fall of this game. I remember after E3 last year I was so pumped and exited to play this. Every single person I knew from XI was ready to move to it.

Here we are now a year after launch. The game still isn't finished, it's basically been in open beta for a year. They failed the PS3 fans so bad that by the time the game finally releases on the system, the PS3 will be on the downhill side of its life cycle. And to put salt in the wound, the game's direction is going to turn it into FF-WoW.

I'm sorry SE, but even longtime loyal fans have to say "Enough" at some point.



If it was the right direction, people wouldn't have abandoned it en masse.
#62 Oct 16 2011 at 11:58 PM Rating: Good
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SinDariusDaishiGajo wrote:
ChelleFemreal wrote:
I'm going to give 2.0 some time...but if I'm not used to the new changes, I'm not paying to play this mess. And I TOTALLY and COMPLETELY agree on the WoWification. The only things they have kept are the Japanese reward system for working as a collective--bonus points up the assets for working in hive mode as opposed to solo and life-like characters rather than toons, which I do still appreciate but can find on Aion and elsewhere. The new team took over and took the game in a completely different direction than the original concept--but once they start charging me money to play I think I'm done until they get their collective act together...IF that time comes. I just don't see how it's savable now. The WoW-ites are thrilled, and the FF purists who paid attention to what was PROMISED are not. That's just how it is and the complaint thread is elsewhere I guess. I had come to expect so much more from this brand, and the initial gaming experience was SO PRIMO! It was initially going in the perfect direction and I think they sadly let a bunch of WoW-bots mislead them in the current direction. But I'm not ready to give up yet because that leaves me with nothing left to play because they've also mucked up XI. I can't blame it on growing up either b/c I was an adult coming into gaming when XI came out. I haven't changed, SE certainly hasn't changed (aggravating and short-cutting as ever), but the gaming experience has. I really do hope they find a way to salvage something here, but I see a massive die-off coming if they think they can start charging NOW, as in next month. That is wayyyyy too soon. A lot of people will drop. That is not a complaint, that's advice from an adult player.

Mathisyn wrote:
So after seeing some of the concept pictures of the new "2.0" I was struck at how very WoW like the interface was. Is this the dev team finally giving up? If they wanted to make a WoW-clone why is it going to take them 2 years? It's sad because I was actually starting to like the game a bit after 1.9 came out, but this has destroyed all desire to play this.

And it's not the only thing that's going to sting them. Another year for the PS3 version? I think someone will have to rewrite the definition in Webster's for "Simultaneous Release" which is what this was supposed to be. Then a year ago, the PS3 version was supposed to be out in March. Now it's a year+ away.

Words can't describe the epic fall of this game. I remember after E3 last year I was so pumped and exited to play this. Every single person I knew from XI was ready to move to it.

Here we are now a year after launch. The game still isn't finished, it's basically been in open beta for a year. They failed the PS3 fans so bad that by the time the game finally releases on the system, the PS3 will be on the downhill side of its life cycle. And to put salt in the wound, the game's direction is going to turn it into FF-WoW.

I'm sorry SE, but even longtime loyal fans have to say "Enough" at some point.



If it was the right direction, people wouldn't have abandoned it en masse.


Not that I agree with the person you are responding to, as most of their logic was backwards, I would in fact go out on a limb and say that FFXIV's original development team wasn't steering the game in the wrong direction per say, they were just riding there on a bicycle, when they should have been flying an F-16. They fell short on execution. It would be interesting to see what would have happened if they could have delivered on their original vision, and not made so many mistakes.

I can't blame SE with deciding to steer the game a totally new direction, in fact I think it's for the best. But I mostly believe that to be because the general populous is going to associate the failed ideas with the actual failure to execute those ideas.
#63 Oct 17 2011 at 12:50 AM Rating: Good
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WoW-ified, definitely. Meh. I suppose having tried to be a unique snowflake and failing, they decided to clone the market leader. Can't say that I blame them, but tbh, if I wanted to play WoW again, I would.

I liked dungeon finder in WoW because until it got put in the game I never saw the inside of a dungeon in a group. I think the idea isn't bad and it could probably be adapted to work within a server for XI/XIV, but whatevs. Once I saw language specific servers, pvp/massive pvp(which sounds a lot like open world pvp on WoW, like wintergrasp and the like), and dungeon finder...about the only thing XIV is missing is a horde/alliance bit and flying mounts.

.-. sorely disappointed in this thing.

Edited, Oct 17th 2011 3:03am by AquillaValefor
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#64 Oct 17 2011 at 12:59 AM Rating: Good
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AquillaValefor wrote:
Once I saw language specific serve(r)s, ...


Where did you see this? I didn't see this at all... I think I'd remember if I saw it because I'd have thrown a **** fit. But maybe I missed it.
#65 Oct 17 2011 at 1:00 AM Rating: Good
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I'll link ya. There's a translation on the official forums of Yoshi-P's...er.. thingy.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/27798-A-Recent-Yoshi-P-Post-that-probably-needs-to-be-read-%28Translation%29
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#66 Oct 17 2011 at 1:27 AM Rating: Good
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AquillaValefor wrote:
I'll link ya. There's a translation on the official forums of Yoshi-P's...er.. thingy.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/27798-A-Recent-Yoshi-P-Post-that-probably-needs-to-be-read-%28Translation%29


Thank god it's an option. I have to say though, while I don't care much about the other changes, this is a step in the wrong direction in my own little world, though I am sure many would disagree.
#67 Oct 17 2011 at 1:29 AM Rating: Good
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my main complaint about it is... there's no shortage of WoW clones. Lots, and lots of WoW clones. Idk that making FFXIV another is gonna help them a lot.

It's not making me want to play. .-.
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#68 Oct 17 2011 at 1:33 AM Rating: Good
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AquillaValefor wrote:
WoW-ified, definitely. Meh. I suppose having tried to be a unique snowflake and failing, they decided to clone the market leader. Can't say that I blame them, but tbh, if I wanted to play WoW again, I would.



Problem is that doesn't work either. The MMO market is littered with the corpses of failed WoW clones.

Also, language specific servers are a bad idea. Part of FFXI's unique appeal was that it is an international game.
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#69 Oct 17 2011 at 2:42 AM Rating: Decent
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RamseySylph wrote:
AquillaValefor wrote:
Once I saw language specific serve(r)s, ...


Where did you see this? I didn't see this at all... I think I'd remember if I saw it because I'd have thrown a sh*t fit. But maybe I missed it.


Not sure why you'd be upset. It makes perfect sense with the addition of cross server grouping unless they add a separate option to limit to a specified language for that group. I brought this up earlier, but it would be difficult for a group that was put together in... well, **** it we might as well call it the dungeon finder. Anyway, it would be difficult if you got into a group of people who were all from different regions(assuming communication is important to anything they add to this game in the future).

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Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#70 Oct 17 2011 at 2:52 AM Rating: Decent
Finuve wrote:
I just enjoyed these conversations in XI "Hey man great partying with you need a linkshell?" "sure" "Hey guys welcome <name>"

its pretty much the basis on XIs community growing, ppl group up, become friends, invite to linkshells, with this system I foresee "Hey man great partying with you need a linkshell?" "I'm not on your server, later never talk to you again"

and that worries me, I'm still playing XI 7 years later in large parts due to the sheer number of ppl I still talk to

but this is something that if implemented properly could help casuals while still being shunned by most


This!
Making friends in FFXI dunes party have lasted for years and moved to the real world for me. I can't do this if the people I party with come from a different server...
Going exploring after a party with some newly met players has been one of the best aspects of FFXI.

Olorinus wrote:

EmotionBlues wrote:


That's what the party flag feature was in FFXI. You gave an indicator you were interested in a group (or not, in some cases) - with an improved UI and search feature it would be simple to have a system that looks up people with their 'flags' set or a general search to politely ask people who may want to party.


except it didn't/doesn't work in XI either. I dare you, go play with your flag up by yourself. Unless you are a 90-95 WHM, BLM, or WAR you will be playing for days if not weeks/months before getting an invite. Maybe if you're above 85 you would get an exp party invite, but no one is sending out invites to anything that matters.

Do you want to do dynamis or take down an NM? guess what - you're shouting in PJ or answering a shout in PJ or you are soloing or not going at all - cause no one - NO ONE uses the LFG system to organize real events, or even exp these days (outside of maybe looking for a whm)

Sorry, that is archaic and it just won't do these days. If you want a system like XI's system - play XI and get shouting.

Edited, Oct 14th 2011 11:41am by Olorinus


This worked fine until everyone started to be high level. Few years back when there were still people joining FFXI there was always parties in so many different areas and you would always get a party - sometimes immediately, sometimes with a bit of a wait, but I always ended up doing something.
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#71 Oct 17 2011 at 3:00 AM Rating: Good
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Lobivopis wrote:
Also, language specific servers are a bad idea. Part of FFXI's unique appeal was that it is an international game.


I don't entirely agree with that. Japanese and English speakers generally avoided one another. Plus, when it was released there was no WoW to compare it to. Not in retail form, anyway.

I'm excited about 2.0. I loved XI, but its gameplay is boring and dated compared to what's currently on the market. I'd love to see XIV with more modern and less awkward mechanics. If the game will change right under our noses, that's an added bonus. There are incentives to play and continue playing this game, but you'll be further holding the community back by complaining about "WOW-ification" without actually trying the finished product.

I understand that much of the community migrated from XI, and they expected the same thing, but there's no mass appeal in that system. The bottom line is that SE wants to attract new subscribers, not have all of their XI fans migrate to the new game. If this is what it takes for them to get people interested in it again, I support that.

I'm confident that SE can take a piece of what makes XIV unique and apply it to all the changes that the 2.0 system will unleash. It's all about staying optimistic. I hope you guys will stick around and check it out with me.
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#72 Oct 17 2011 at 3:02 AM Rating: Good
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
RamseySylph wrote:
AquillaValefor wrote:
Once I saw language specific serve(r)s, ...


Where did you see this? I didn't see this at all... I think I'd remember if I saw it because I'd have thrown a sh*t fit. But maybe I missed it.


Not sure why you'd be upset. It makes perfect sense with the addition of cross server grouping unless they add a separate option to limit to a specified language for that group. I brought this up earlier, but it would be difficult for a group that was put together in... well, @#%^ it we might as well call it the dungeon finder. Anyway, it would be difficult if you got into a group of people who were all from different regions(assuming communication is important to anything they add to this game in the future).



No it doesn't?

It would be more than simple enough to check a box for what languages we spoke before we queued. In fact, that feature was in FFXI which is now going on a decade old. The auto-queue feature, even if it was limited to our actual server would need to have this option. It's true that you don't usually wan't to do difficult content with people you can't understand, though there are some exceptions to this rule. But cross-region servers have always been hugely appealing to me and everyone else I know that plays. I myself speak Japanese and my LS mates being Quebecois speak French, and having the ability to play with other native speakers of these languages is something unique to FFXI and FFXIV.

Anyway...

On the topic of the so called "WoW-ification" people need to stop counting their chickens before they hatch. Matchmaking and a not-fail Mouse and keyboard UI does not World of Warcraft make. Unless they suddenly fire their entire art staff, and hire interns to do their VO and animate their cutscenes. Remove any semblance of a narrative, compress all the jobs into existing classes, vow to never add anymore classes, make the Garlean empire playable, totally adjust the way movement feels in game, significantly reduce the challenge of all content up until end game, create an on rails quest system for leveling, add flying mounts, completely throw plausibility out the window for equipment design, nerf crafting into the ground and make it much easier to level, make it and gathering classes no longer a primary class, never add chocobo-raising or equipment or the ability to fight alongside them, remove the option for international servers.... The list could go on but I'll stop here because I feel like I've made my point.
#73 Oct 17 2011 at 3:03 AM Rating: Good
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LeilaniWildfire wrote:
Few years back when there were still people joining FFXI there was always parties in so many different areas and you would always get a party - sometimes immediately, sometimes with a bit of a wait, but I always ended up doing something.


Even back then it could be several hours, if you had that long, or even several days(/drgdance) before you might get a bite from someone who found you through {Turn your party flag on.} Personally, I tried to start most of the groups I was in to avoid that, but I couldn't estimate how many times I sent a tell to someone who was afk with their flag up. It was really a chore sometimes to put a group together and I don't miss that at all.
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HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#74 Oct 17 2011 at 3:09 AM Rating: Default
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RamseySylph wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
RamseySylph wrote:
AquillaValefor wrote:
Once I saw language specific serve(r)s, ...


Where did you see this? I didn't see this at all... I think I'd remember if I saw it because I'd have thrown a sh*t fit. But maybe I missed it.


Not sure why you'd be upset. It makes perfect sense with the addition of cross server grouping unless they add a separate option to limit to a specified language for that group. I brought this up earlier, but it would be difficult for a group that was put together in... well, @#%^ it we might as well call it the dungeon finder. Anyway, it would be difficult if you got into a group of people who were all from different regions(assuming communication is important to anything they add to this game in the future).



No it doesn't?


Actually it does. It should be an option to limit perhaps your server, but at the very least your auto-grouping to the language of your choice. No one should be forced to spam auto-translate if they don't want to. It's an option.
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#75 Oct 17 2011 at 3:12 AM Rating: Good
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3,962 posts
FilthMcNasty wrote:
RamseySylph wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
RamseySylph wrote:
AquillaValefor wrote:
Once I saw language specific serve(r)s, ...


Where did you see this? I didn't see this at all... I think I'd remember if I saw it because I'd have thrown a sh*t fit. But maybe I missed it.


Not sure why you'd be upset. It makes perfect sense with the addition of cross server grouping unless they add a separate option to limit to a specified language for that group. I brought this up earlier, but it would be difficult for a group that was put together in... well, @#%^ it we might as well call it the dungeon finder. Anyway, it would be difficult if you got into a group of people who were all from different regions(assuming communication is important to anything they add to this game in the future).



No it doesn't?


Actually it does. It should be an option to limit perhaps your server, but at the very least your auto-grouping to the language of your choice. No one should be forced to spam auto-translate if they don't want to. It's an option.


Yeah, to be clear, I was disagreeing with it making sense to create region-specific servers, I immediately stated after that, that having a language option on a matchmaking system would me a must have. Which it appears we are in agreement about anyway?
#76 Oct 17 2011 at 4:31 AM Rating: Decent
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1,408 posts
zuogehaomeng wrote:
For one, its not a WoW Clone. Sure this game uses "PROVEN GAMEPLAY MECHANICS" but that doesn't mean its a clone. The action bar is a proven gameplay mechanic, get over it. Why would they need to change it? FF11 already had alot of gameplay mechanics 'copied' over from Everquest. Did those need changing too? Why is it if FF14 uses some of the proven mechanics in WoW its now copying it and becomes a clone? The art style for 14 is completely different, the feeling, and job system, story all of it very different. I don't think this game is copy at all. I think you really got to look at the outline again because from what I can tell this game's future rocks and has the right mix of new and proven material.

If you want FF11, stay on FF11. Your like someone picking up any FPS now and saying oh this game totally a Halo clone, and I want to play a game as exciting as Doom 1 was. The Genre has changed! (Not saying Doom1 is bad, I loved it! But if I want that, ill just play Doom 1, I don't expect developers to throw away all the proven game mechanics discovered over the course of the years to go somewhere completely different and alienate all your potential customers)

Agreed. WoW's basic ideas works and is the worlds number 1 MMO. Time for FFXIV to catch up when it comes to gameplay. FFXIV though will still have the basic stuff that makes FF different to WoW.
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#77 Oct 17 2011 at 11:38 AM Rating: Decent
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OT I know, but strictly speaking it's also a quadrinity in WoW as well--ranged and melee DPS have pretty different roles in raiding, which is what a lot of WoW classes are balanced around. Also note that in many 10-mans you only need 1 tank, two healers, and 7 DPS, which is why so many people play DPS (it gets even more unbalanced in 25-mans). Dungeons are really just for leveling and farming JP/VP/raiding gear, which is why the queue waits are so annoying (you just wanna blast through as many as possible in a sitting). The classes become further defined in PVP, but I'm not a PVPer so I can't really speak with any authority on that.
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#78 Oct 17 2011 at 11:57 AM Rating: Excellent
Edited by bsphil
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EQ clone. /ohmy

Always amusing that people get upset that a very unpopular game is implementing changes that are very popular elsewhere in the MMO genre.
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#79 Oct 17 2011 at 1:34 PM Rating: Decent
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bsphil wrote:
Always amusing that people get upset that a very unpopular game is implementing changes that are very popular elsewhere in the MMO genre.


Basically this. Tried and true mechanics will always prevail. It's cool to be different, but changing everything from the industry norm just for the sake of being different is suicide. The handful of people who've stuck with this game will probably like these changes regardless of what they are. Honestly, it's the trolls who hop on after every patch and cry about what still hasn't been fixed who are killing it for everyone.

tl;dr - 2.0 is probably the only way to appease the people who've been there since day 1, and those who've been shying away from either coming back or starting in the first place.
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#80 Oct 17 2011 at 2:44 PM Rating: Default
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TurboTom wrote:
bsphil wrote:
Always amusing that people get upset that a very unpopular game is implementing changes that are very popular elsewhere in the MMO genre.


Basically this. Tried and true mechanics will always prevail. It's cool to be different, but changing everything from the industry norm just for the sake of being different is suicide. The handful of people who've stuck with this game will probably like these changes regardless of what they are. Honestly, it's the trolls who hop on after every patch and cry about what still hasn't been fixed who are killing it for everyone.

tl;dr - 2.0 is probably the only way to appease the people who've been there since day 1, and those who've been shying away from either coming back or starting in the first place.



WoW clones are never successful though. In the MMO industry you must offer something unique or you will fail. That's why EVE Online has 500k subscribers, it's pretty much the only MMO of it's type. And FFXI's appeal was that it was an MMO with the flavor of a console JRPG. To paraphrase Penny Arcade, throwing your nearly identical hat into the ring won't lead to success.

I know exactly what they're thinking: Duplicate WoW but with better graphics = profit! But it won't work, it'd been tried countless times already and it never works.


On rebuilding FFXIV. They're basically throwing out crystal tools and all existing content. From the looks of it the only thing they're keeping seems to be the textures and models. Basically 5 years of development $$$ tossed out the window. And if they fail with this, it could be another Spirits Within fiasco that bankrupts the company.

Thing is though, it took them 5 years last time, now they're claiming that they will build a brand new FFXIV from scratch in 1 year? Maybe 2 years, but 1, I doubt that it's possible.



Edited, Oct 17th 2011 5:56pm by Lobivopis
____________________________
Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.


I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#81 Oct 17 2011 at 4:46 PM Rating: Good
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3,530 posts
Lobivopis wrote:
I know exactly what they're thinking: Duplicate WoW but with better graphics = profit! But it won't work, it'd been tried countless times already and it never works.


But it makes so much sense - WoW makes money, so if I'm like WoW, I'll make money, too! It's not as though there are other WoW-like MMORPGs out there from which players can choose, so this overhaul will make FFXIV really stand out as a front-runner of the genre!


Edited, Oct 17th 2011 6:47pm by KaneKitty
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#82 Oct 17 2011 at 5:17 PM Rating: Good
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I didnt know worldless content finder, and jump made it into a WoW clone. I hate to say it, but content finder was basically ripped straight from games that WERE not MMO. It is not hard to come to this concept if you have ever played games like PSO, or PC versions of baldur's gate and icewinddale. Concurrent dungeon crawling with matching players who wanted to play, you can play with friends or play with complete strangers until you've completed said objective.

Lets talk about the heart of the game. Classes with extreme customizable ability to equip other actions and spells/ Advance Job system to further specialize and accent the highly customizable class system. Races, Final Fantasy races not troll,elf,gnome,dwarf. That alone sets it worlds apart from other fantasy MMOs. World, and lore very ffish. Even if they were to add flying mounts WoW wasn't the first of all games to ever conceive it. In a high fantasy style environment there are BOUND to be similarities. Races (elves, drow, etc.,), lore(efreet, djinn's, imps), and danger(impending worldly catastrophy only YOU can prevent!!) just because one company does it doesn't mean it's copying. **** even author of LoTR copied then. When SE copies personal progression, art style, actual mechanics - not features, then I will call this a WoW clone. I think some of you hate ffxiv that much that you are really buttheart that these changes are furrowing a LOT of brows, and garnering a lot of attention - and this just may be successful.
#83 Oct 17 2011 at 5:51 PM Rating: Decent
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AquillaValefor wrote:
Once I saw language specific servers, pvp/massive pvp(which sounds a lot like open world pvp on WoW, like wintergrasp and the like)

.-. sorely disappointed in this thing.

Edited, Oct 17th 2011 3:03am by AquillaValefor


But that has been in alot of mmorpg even The Myth of Soma had this and that goes back to the early 1990 so thats been in mmorpg forever i was shocked when i seen ff11 tbh
#84 Oct 17 2011 at 7:49 PM Rating: Good
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383 posts
Lobivopis wrote:
WoW clones are never successful though. In the MMO industry you must offer something unique or you will fail.]


I never mentioned a wow clone. I said that tried and true mechanics will always prevail. IMO, wow's greatest feature is its UI; it's self explanatory, and anyone can use it.

I've read all of the plans for 2.0 and they're holding onto much of what makes this game unique including the armory system.

As far as crystal tools is concerned, they shot themselves in the foot with that one to begin with. The graphical system was poorly optimized and even top-tier computers had difficulty playing the game without overheating and necessary graphical tweaking.

Yoshida seems to get the fact that there's a rift in th community, so it seems like he wants to keep aspects to appease everyone. I hope they do pull it off, and of that means that they need to steal some ideas from wow, so be it. I only want to see this game succeed, not fall apart because a vocal minority is being catered to.
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#85 Oct 17 2011 at 8:27 PM Rating: Decent
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Mathisyn wrote:
So after seeing some of the concept pictures of the new "2.0" I was struck at how very WoW like the interface was. Is this the dev team finally giving up? If they wanted to make a WoW-clone why is it going to take them 2 years? It's sad because I was actually starting to like the game a bit after 1.9 came out, but this has destroyed all desire to play this.

And it's not the only thing that's going to sting them. Another year for the PS3 version? I think someone will have to rewrite the definition in Webster's for "Simultaneous Release" which is what this was supposed to be. Then a year ago, the PS3 version was supposed to be out in March. Now it's a year+ away.

Words can't describe the epic fall of this game. I remember after E3 last year I was so pumped and exited to play this. Every single person I knew from XI was ready to move to it.

Here we are now a year after launch. The game still isn't finished, it's basically been in open beta for a year. They failed the PS3 fans so bad that by the time the game finally releases on the system, the PS3 will be on the downhill side of its life cycle. And to put salt in the wound, the game's direction is going to turn it into FF-WoW.

I'm sorry SE, but even longtime loyal fans have to say "Enough" at some point.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztVMib1T4T4
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#86 Oct 17 2011 at 8:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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KacesofCaitsith wrote:
Isn't that a function of the role population rather than the lfg system? By this I mean that there are simply fewer people who play tanks and healers vs those who play dps.
Varies with what people want out of their classes and the current "relevant" content. To draw the WoW example, the tank-gets-instant-queues phenom gained a lot of steam when heroics and dungeons were made more "difficult" at the entry level when Cataclysm came out. The no-lifers whose e-peen shriveled during Wrath of the Lich King rejoiced, and the plethora of tanks we had available for pugging from WoTLK either specced for DPS or became super picky and ran with guildmates only.

By comparison, the waits for dungeon queues as DPS were nowhere near as bad as they were in Cata because we had more people willing to tank due to how content was tuned. You didn't have to be a keyboard master to play a tank, and we benefited from it with shorter wait times for dungeons, and even saw things like grandpas and grandmas main tanking raid content. The content wasn't super easy, but it wasn't super hard either (unless you were specifically gunning for hard mode content).

The rule of thumb is that the more tedious the role is, the less people are going to want to do it. When you make tanking and healing less fun, you basically kill off part of your tank and healer pool.

RamseySylph wrote:
FFXI had the "Holy quadrilateral" system, let's not forget "Support" anyways, even without an automated dungeon queue system, when it came to party content, as a Red Mage I was so in demand that during the height of ToAU I would get PT invites before the server message appeared.
Ugh, don't remind me. I used to have hope for systems outside the trinity until I played Final Fantasy XI. At least under the trinity RDM would have gotten better treatment as a job, though that's for another discussion.

Quote:
I think the big problem with WoW's classes is that every healer can also be a damage dealer, as can every tank. While the ratio of potential members is correct (1.5 times as many DD as Tank + Healer), Blizzard did not consider the number of potential tanks and healers removed from those roles via their ability to damage.
This is pretty much where I staunchly disagree. All you create is clashing with iconic images and class concept, not to mention frustration in some of the players. RDM was the biggest victim of this than any other job in FFXI. On the WoW front, you have Paladins, the guys that were leaders of armies and powerful front line combatants (all established between the strategy games and the books) who were relegated to wearing dresses and hanging back with the healers during all of Vanilla WoW and most of The Burning Crusade. So yes, Blizzard did think like you at one point, then saw the error of their ways and corrected things accordingly.

Quote:
Agreed. WoW's basic ideas works and is the worlds number 1 MMO. Time for FFXIV to catch up when it comes to gameplay.
Indeed. FFXI copied off Everquest, which was considered the template MMO back in the day. FFXIV copying at least some parts of WoW makes sense, as WoW is now the template MMO in terms of modern MMO design.

Edited, Oct 18th 2011 1:30am by Ruisu
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#87 Oct 17 2011 at 11:54 PM Rating: Default
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TurboTom wrote:
Lobivopis wrote:
WoW clones are never successful though. In the MMO industry you must offer something unique or you will fail.]


I never mentioned a wow clone. I said that tried and true mechanics will always prevail. IMO, wow's greatest feature is its UI; it's self explanatory, and anyone can use it.


I'd like to know how they're going to make that work with a gamepad on the PS3.



TurboTom wrote:

Yoshida seems to get the fact that there's a rift in th community, so it seems like he wants to keep aspects to appease everyone. I hope they do pull it off, and of that means that they need to steal some ideas from wow, so be it. I only want to see this game succeed, not fall apart because a vocal minority is being catered to.


I won't lie, I want to see it fail. In my mind FFXIV is a replacement scrappy for FFXI.

Edited, Oct 18th 2011 2:57am by Lobivopis
____________________________
Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.


I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#88 Oct 18 2011 at 1:00 AM Rating: Decent
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Lobivopis wrote:


I'd like to know how they're going to make that work with a gamepad on the PS3.


Yeah, looking forward to how they deal with an established community that's gong to look down on members on consoles (who are the only hope for the game, at this point)

going to be hard to stop playerbase from turning their nose up at console players when PC players will have advantages built into their UI
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#89 Oct 18 2011 at 1:30 AM Rating: Good
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Olorinus wrote:
Lobivopis wrote:


I'd like to know how they're going to make that work with a gamepad on the PS3.


Yeah, looking forward to how they deal with an established community that's gong to look down on members on consoles (who are the only hope for the game, at this point)

going to be hard to stop playerbase from turning their nose up at console players when PC players will have advantages built into their UI


In one of the interviews (read too many today) Yoshi-P was clear that if the functionality of any add-on became so widespread and widely used by the community, (assuming it wasn't something they decide to break because it undermines the experience) it will be implemented into the default UI for both the PC and PS3 version.
#90 Oct 18 2011 at 1:49 AM Rating: Decent
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so months and months after the content for which the add ons were created is current, maybe, if SE is responsive (lol) it will get added to the default UI for PS players?

I am no expert on WoW but aren't a bunch of add ons custom designed for the raid - do you really expect me to believe SE would be actually responsive and un brain dead enough to give PS players those add ons, especially when content is current?

Edited, Oct 18th 2011 12:50am by Olorinus
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#91 Oct 18 2011 at 1:59 AM Rating: Decent
Edited by bsphil
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21,739 posts
Lobivopis wrote:
WoW clones are never successful though.
Wasn't Aion over 1 mil subscribers for a while?

Lobivopis wrote:
tvtropes link
Oh no you don't.
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#92 Oct 18 2011 at 2:06 AM Rating: Excellent
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Olorinus wrote:
so months and months after the content for which the add ons were created is current, maybe, if SE is responsive (lol) it will get added to the default UI for PS players?

I am no expert on WoW but aren't a bunch of add ons custom designed for the raid - do you really expect me to believe SE would be actually responsive and un brain dead enough to give PS players those add ons, especially when content is current?

Edited, Oct 18th 2011 12:50am by Olorinus


I'm not sure what you're talking about, but add-ons don't become "Un-current." It's not like when Molten Core was the top tier content people made "Fire Resist" addons that improved their defense against fire attacks.

Add-ons come and go in functionality for one primary reason. Their developers. Someone comes up with a bright idea, and an add-on is born. Someone stops playing or having free time and an add-on dies... If it's popular enough, someone will pick up the mantle.

We don't even know what the API we'll have access to looks like at this point, we only know that we might be developing these add-ons in Flash. (If anyone thought having a lot of WoW add-ons killed your PC, prepare to be amazed.)

Might there be some tremendously useful add-on that takes a while to get ported over to base functionality in the UI? It's possible. But it won't suddenly become un-current. If that base functionality is so useful, or such a better way to display certain information. A few good examples are displaying threat, and having wardrobes, or sets of gear that can be swapped out with a single button. These things are timeless additions made to the WoW UI that originated as add-ons.

The only thing I can really think of that "changes" from patch to patch are things like Deadly Boss Mods, which essentially is like someone spliced a fight guide over your fight, and things like Atlas Loot which allow you to display and read up on loot from each dungeon.

The second of those two things is irrelevant to gameplay, it's just an item database built into the game. They can do this themselves, but if they don't, it's no skin off the PS3 players nose, honestly.

Deadly Boss Mods is another issue... But one that can be rectified through good design. If there are "tells" that an attack is coming, such as animations, audio, etc. as well as some degree of pattern to a bosses attack, and most importantly, a clear UI element that displays what ability or spell a boss is currently preparing/using, then something like DBM really isn't even necessary.
#93 Oct 18 2011 at 2:29 AM Rating: Default
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bsphil wrote:
Lobivopis wrote:
WoW clones are never successful though.
Wasn't Aion over 1 mil subscribers for a while?


AOC, WAR, and even FFXIV had good numbers "for a while"


Olorinus wrote:
Lobivopis wrote:


I'd like to know how they're going to make that work with a gamepad on the PS3.


Yeah, looking forward to how they deal with an established community that's gong to look down on members on consoles (who are the only hope for the game, at this point)

going to be hard to stop playerbase from turning their nose up at console players when PC players will have advantages built into their UI


I really don't want a mouse + WASD based UI. One of the things I liked about FFXI was that you could play it with a gamepad.

Edited, Oct 18th 2011 5:33am by Lobivopis
____________________________
Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.


I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#94 Oct 18 2011 at 2:37 AM Rating: Good
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Lobivopis wrote:
I really don't want a mouse + WASD based UI. One of the things I liked about FFXI was that you could play it with a gamepad.[/i]


They said they were going to keep the gamepad option, what's the problem?
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#95 Oct 18 2011 at 2:38 AM Rating: Decent
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RamseySylph wrote:
Deadly Boss Mods is another issue... But one that can be rectified through good design. If there are "tells" that an attack is coming, such as animations, audio, etc. as well as some degree of pattern to a bosses attack, and most importantly, a clear UI element that displays what ability or spell a boss is currently preparing/using, then something like DBM really isn't even necessary.
DBM and BigWigs are useful largely because it points things out that would probably get lost amidst WoW's fast-paced combat. Their usefulness has always greatly varied from boss to boss. If you want an example, Hodir, Mimiron and General Vezax can easily be done without DBM, but you'd benefit from it for stuff like Yogg-Saron and Freya (as there are soft time limits you have to keep track of during both encounters).
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#96 Oct 18 2011 at 2:44 AM Rating: Default
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TurboTom wrote:
Lobivopis wrote:
I really don't want a mouse + WASD based UI. One of the things I liked about FFXI was that you could play it with a gamepad.[/i]


They said they were going to keep the gamepad option, what's the problem?


How are they going to make a WoW style UI work with a gamepad?
____________________________
Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.


I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#97 Oct 18 2011 at 2:46 AM Rating: Good
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Ruisu wrote:
RamseySylph wrote:
Deadly Boss Mods is another issue... But one that can be rectified through good design. If there are "tells" that an attack is coming, such as animations, audio, etc. as well as some degree of pattern to a bosses attack, and most importantly, a clear UI element that displays what ability or spell a boss is currently preparing/using, then something like DBM really isn't even necessary.
DBM and BigWigs are useful largely because it points things out that would probably get lost amidst WoW's fast-paced combat. Their usefulness has always greatly varied from boss to boss. If you want an example, Hodir, Mimiron and General Vezax can easily be done without DBM, but you'd benefit from it for stuff like Yogg-Saron and Freya (as there are soft time limits you have to keep track of during both encounters).


Yeah, and that was basically my point. The functionality that is "necessary" (which is subjective anyways) could and should be implemented into the UI at the most basic level, and could be implemented in order to prevent issues where the PS3 and PC users were on uneven ground.

Those soft timers could be stuck up in the top right where leve timers normally are located. Or they can be placed somewhere in bar format, depending on what is more appropriate.


Lobivopis wrote:
TurboTom wrote:
Lobivopis wrote:
I really don't want a mouse + WASD based UI. One of the things I liked about FFXI was that you could play it with a gamepad.[/i]


They said they were going to keep the gamepad option, what's the problem?


How are they going to make a WoW style UI work with a gamepad?


They're painfully clear, right on the original post about 2.0 that there will be a user interface for gamepad users and a user interface for keyboard and mouse users. (Which there always should have been) What do you think they were going to do with PS3 users? Ask them to plug in a USB mouse? The same UI (for gamepads) will exist on both systems.

Edited, Oct 18th 2011 1:47am by RamseySylph
#98 Oct 18 2011 at 2:55 AM Rating: Good
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Olorinus wrote:
Lobivopis wrote:


I'd like to know how they're going to make that work with a gamepad on the PS3.


Yeah, looking forward to how they deal with an established community that's gong to look down on members on consoles (who are the only hope for the game, at this point)

going to be hard to stop playerbase from turning their nose up at console players when PC players will have advantages built into their UI


A good amount of PC players already look down on console players & those who would use a controller on a PC anyway. It's fun watching people freak out on some of the other forums if someone mentions playing an mmo(or any game really) with a controller. You'd think someone just struck their child or somethin'.

SE's been pretty good to controller users with their mmos so far though.

Edited, Oct 18th 2011 4:59am by TwistedOwl
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#99 Oct 18 2011 at 3:51 AM Rating: Decent
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i use Keyboard and Gamepad, as i did with XI. XIV just doesn't feel right with a mouse, it's honestly the only game for PC that makes me feel that way.
#100 Oct 18 2011 at 6:14 AM Rating: Excellent
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No offense, but in what way is the UI that was pictured in the outline in anyway massively different than the current UI we have? For clarity, please view:

http://img6.mmo.mmo4arab.com/news/2011/10/17/ffxiv/ffxiv_new_graphics.jpg

The major changes I see?
  • Font
  • Minimap has a border
  • Expansion of the current mini-menu to buttons w/ more options and/or shortcuts
  • Buff timers on party/raid frames
  • More streamlined quest tracker (right side under minimap, which is industry standard now)
  • Option to show second action bar


Otherwise, it's literally the same exact interface. Same style, same design, same elements. Same HP/MP/TP bar locations, same minimalistic design setup. In fact, IMHO, I think the proposed UI shown is probably the most attractive, streamlined, and minimalistic I've seen in any MMO. There's virtually no clutter, and there's tons of information on the screen.

How could what's being proposed be bad?
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#101 Oct 18 2011 at 6:41 AM Rating: Good
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TwistedOwl wrote:
A good amount of PC players already look down on console players & those who would use a controller on a PC anyway. It's fun watching people freak out on some of the other forums if someone mentions playing an mmo(or any game really) with a controller. You'd think someone just struck their child or somethin'.

SE's been pretty good to controller users with their mmos so far though.

Edited, Oct 18th 2011 4:59am by TwistedOwl

FPS are the only games where I have really seen the rift between the KB+mouse and the controller players. There tends to be a lot of eye rolling from the mouse players towards the controller players.
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