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Disappointed in the WoW-ification of FFXIV...Follow

#102Ostia, Posted: Oct 18 2011 at 8:08 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) That's wow's UI....
#103 Oct 18 2011 at 8:25 AM Rating: Excellent
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I spent a lot of time with UI's in WoW, considering I was an active AddOn developer for a few years and spent most of my play time fiddling with it. That is not WoW's UI. That is an MMO's UI, and a **** nice looking one at that, IMHO.

But nonetheless...the UI pictured is not WoW's UI. And WoW's UI is just EQ's UI.
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#104 Oct 18 2011 at 11:37 AM Rating: Decent
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I think I need to pop back into the thread real quick and clarify something that, after re-reading the OP it wasn't really clear and for that I apologize.

My main issue with the changes they are making aren't that they're being made. As a long time WoW player the changes look promising and I will more than likely try the game again when 2.0 goes live. My issue is that it is going to take them another year+ to reach a point that is 7 years ago.

I also think a "dungeon finder" will be the death of FFXIV. To me one of the main draws of FFXI and XIV was the community. I played FFXI long after I would have normally quit due to the people I met in game, many of them became friends irl also. I don't see that community being nearly as strong with a cross server group finder in place.

I guess my tl;dr version of all of this would be; The changes look promising but I believe it's too little, too late and it's going to take too long to implement changes that IMO take the game in a backwards direction, design-wise. And the year+ delay of the PS3 version is basically the final nail in the coffin.
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#105 Oct 18 2011 at 1:33 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't know what all the dissapointment is all about. I still play XI and the way XIV potential looks after sifting through the concept art is looks amazing. FFXI-2 yeah. But look. That's just what people want. FFXI was great and it's different from WoW that's what I liked about it anyway when I first picked it up way back when.

Edited, Oct 18th 2011 3:34pm by Yahztee

Edited, Oct 18th 2011 3:35pm by Yahztee
#106 Oct 18 2011 at 5:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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I have a friend who plays WoW with a 360 controller--he developed an add-on for it (played Aion with a 360 controller too, at launch). You can find lots of sites and YouTube videos with others doing it. He's a raid tank, and pretty good at it.

Allowing add-ons (or just good customizability) presumably lets FFXIV players play the way they want to play--kb mouse, kb turning, gamepad, PowerGlove, whatever. With all the time you put into an MMO, shouldn't you get to use whatever device you want? WoW also has a significant disabled population, and it's extremely important for disabled players to have a variety of options for controls. There's no reason why SE shouldn't offer that flexibility to its customers.
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#107 Oct 18 2011 at 8:26 PM Rating: Default
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yfaithfully wrote:
WoW also has a significant disabled population


Yes, yes it does.

Oh, did you mean certifiably disabled?
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#108 Oct 18 2011 at 9:38 PM Rating: Default
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This is just the tip of the iceberg. Mark my word, there will be more "wow" type features coming to FFXIV.
#109 Oct 22 2011 at 5:27 PM Rating: Good
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doubleax wrote:
This is just the tip of the iceberg. Mark my word, there will be more "wow" type features coming to FFXIV.


Why did the original devs refuse to "borrow" FF systems & lore which could have greatly enhanced FFXIV? I still think they could look at their own FF franchise for great ideas to help with the new rebuild.
#110 Oct 22 2011 at 9:07 PM Rating: Excellent
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Mathisyn wrote:
I also think a "dungeon finder" will be the death of FFXIV. To me one of the main draws of FFXI and XIV was the community. I played FFXI long after I would have normally quit due to the people I met in game, many of them became friends irl also. I don't see that community being nearly as strong with a cross server group finder in place.


Stop thinking of the mythical game "Final Nostalgia XI" and actually remember FFXI. I'm so tired of people proclaiming FFXI's community to be this wonderful, immensely helpful group of people that were just sooo much more mature and infinitely wiser than any other MMO that has ever existed.

Newflash: FFXI had, has, and will always have just a mediocre of a community as any other MMO. I remember helpful people. I remember kind people that gave out raises on their way to destinations. I remember people that answered to shouts when someone needed helped with a limit break (which is still a completely moronic concept in and of itself: doing a quest to level 5 more levels doesn't make you any better than anyone else).

However, I also remember jackasses that camped on top of people because it was the norm. I remember players that barely put any effort into their play and dragged down already slow EXP sessions. I remember entire classes being shunned on launch of new expansions and content because of playerbase stigma attached to preconceived notions. I remember people monopolozing NMs and crafting corners simply because they could as their right. I remember crafters that refused to hand out any HQed items they made right there in front of you even when you paid their ludicrious fee and provided your own materials.

Humans are terrible everywhere you go. Stop pretending there's this mystical place were they aren't.


Edited, Oct 22nd 2011 11:08pm by Viertel
#111 Oct 22 2011 at 11:21 PM Rating: Decent
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Viertel wrote:
Humans are terrible everywhere you go. Stop pretending there's this mystical place were they aren't.


There was such a place, once, and it was called FFXI. Everything was fine until you showed up, actually. Humans are terrible everywhere you go - everywhere you go. Oh, but I'm sure it's just a coincidence...
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#112 Oct 23 2011 at 12:12 AM Rating: Decent
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Viertel wrote:
Mathisyn wrote:
I also think a "dungeon finder" will be the death of FFXIV. To me one of the main draws of FFXI and XIV was the community. I played FFXI long after I would have normally quit due to the people I met in game, many of them became friends irl also. I don't see that community being nearly as strong with a cross server group finder in place.


Stop thinking of the mythical game "Final Nostalgia XI" and actually remember FFXI. I'm so tired of people proclaiming FFXI's community to be this wonderful, immensely helpful group of people that were just sooo much more mature and infinitely wiser than any other MMO that has ever existed.

Newflash: FFXI had, has, and will always have just a mediocre of a community as any other MMO. I remember helpful people. I remember kind people that gave out raises on their way to destinations. I remember people that answered to shouts when someone needed helped with a limit break (which is still a completely moronic concept in and of itself: doing a quest to level 5 more levels doesn't make you any better than anyone else).

However, I also remember jackasses that camped on top of people because it was the norm. I remember players that barely put any effort into their play and dragged down already slow EXP sessions. I remember entire classes being shunned on launch of new expansions and content because of playerbase stigma attached to preconceived notions. I remember people monopolozing NMs and crafting corners simply because they could as their right. I remember crafters that refused to hand out any HQed items they made right there in front of you even when you paid their ludicrious fee and provided your own materials.

Humans are terrible everywhere you go. Stop pretending there's this mystical place were they aren't.


Edited, Oct 22nd 2011 11:08pm by Viertel



Sorry, but the more gates you put in place, like genkai and other difficult content, like requiring grouping, the more you narrow your audience. ***** will still get through, and lazy people, but you will notice a higher rate of competent players. Not by a wide margin mind you, but if you went back to Final Fantasy XI circa 2005/2006 and did an average poll of high level players competency vs high level players competency at games where partying wasn't necessary and there was no such thing as a limit break, the number was definitely lower.

It also limits your audience, and it's not the right thing for them to do here, but it did in fact have a benefit for the community.
#113 Oct 23 2011 at 4:36 AM Rating: Good
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RamseySylph wrote:
Sorry, but the more gates you put in place, like genkai and other difficult content, like requiring grouping, the more you narrow your audience. ***** will still get through, and lazy people, but you will notice a higher rate of competent players.


Limit breaks(the first 4 anyway) are a poor example. You could get carried through those by any high level player. Ancient papyrus... yeah, I know. ****** drop rate, but that doesn't have any bearing on difficulty. Some people spent hours on it and some people walked with the drop on the first kill. The only limit break that could be considered difficult was the fight against Maat because it was solo.

Responding to a shout or making helpful higher level friends was all that was required of the previous limit breaks.


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#114 Oct 23 2011 at 6:45 AM Rating: Decent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:

Responding to a shout or making helpful higher level friends was all that was required of the previous limit breaks.

And that's just it. Maybe it didn't require much skill, but it did require you to get someone to help you, friend or stranger. Forcing you to meet new people. And if you're not a good person, who would want to help you again? People remember the bad ones and word does go around. Perhaps it was only marginally better, but it was better. Even if it didn't improve playing skill, it did improve/require acceptable people skills.
#115 Oct 23 2011 at 8:04 AM Rating: Good
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rubina wrote:
Why did the original devs refuse to "borrow" FF systems & lore which could have greatly enhanced FFXIV? I still think they could look at their own FF franchise for great ideas to help with the new rebuild.
As has been said before, FFXI borrowed from Everquest because it was the template MMO at the time. It's only logical that FFXIV borrow from this era's current template MMO.
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#116 Oct 23 2011 at 10:04 AM Rating: Default
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Ruisu wrote:
rubina wrote:
Why did the original devs refuse to "borrow" FF systems & lore which could have greatly enhanced FFXIV? I still think they could look at their own FF franchise for great ideas to help with the new rebuild.
As has been said before, FFXI borrowed from Everquest because it was the template MMO at the time. It's only logical that FFXIV borrow from this era's current template MMO.


I don't see how it's "logical" to copy others, it fails for at least a hundred other WoW clones out there; and besides, as people have pointed out, WoW took a lot from EQ... so... what's getting copied now lol?
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#117 Oct 23 2011 at 11:46 AM Rating: Default
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
RamseySylph wrote:
Sorry, but the more gates you put in place, like genkai and other difficult content, like requiring grouping, the more you narrow your audience. ***** will still get through, and lazy people, but you will notice a higher rate of competent players.


Limit breaks(the first 4 anyway) are a poor example. You could get carried through those by any high level player. Ancient papyrus... yeah, I know. sh*tty drop rate, but that doesn't have any bearing on difficulty. Some people spent hours on it and some people walked with the drop on the first kill. The only limit break that could be considered difficult was the fight against Maat because it was solo.

Responding to a shout or making helpful higher level friends was all that was required of the previous limit breaks.




It's more that they're such a pain in the *** that they weed out many players who basically say ********** this it requires too much effort." Not everyone had high level players to run them through. And that's also why I pointed to early FFXI, before players really had the chance to get run through most content.
#118 Oct 23 2011 at 12:08 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
The major changes I see?
Font
Minimap has a border
Expansion of the current mini-menu to buttons w/ more options and/or shortcuts
Buff timers on party/raid frames
More streamlined quest tracker (right side under minimap, which is industry standard now)
Option to show second action bar


As someone mentioned already, this is standard mmo fare. It probably wasn't originally set up like this because of the devs trying to create for a controller. The UI mechanics are still pretty terrible and takes too many steps to get anywhere, they need this change to make the game feel more familiar to Rift, Aion, WoW, LoTRO, AoC, WAR, EQ2, etc.. you know, something a little more standard.

There have been a lot of failed WoW clones, but Rift is successful, and fun, and has a lot of the same elements as WoW. But, it also has enough different stuff to make it stand on it's own. Aion is successful too, just not as much in the US.

The changes look good, but I do hope they can keep the uniqueness of FFXIV and also get rid of annoying things like the current UI mechanics and targeting. More than one action bar would be very welcomed, why make things cumbersome and clunky? One example is: I can't look at gear int he Market Wards, and see my current gear without completely backing out of the menu I am currently in. We need to be able to open more than one window at a time. There is no need, it is just bad design.
#119 Oct 23 2011 at 1:38 PM Rating: Good
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RamseySylph wrote:

It's more that they're such a pain in the *** that they weed out many players who basically say "@#%^ this it requires too much effort." Not everyone had high level players to run them through. And that's also why I pointed to early FFXI, before players really had the chance to get run through most content.


I have to disagree. When i first played ffxi (back in NA release) there were plenty of people who got by the limit breaks (up to the maat fight) for a bunch of reasons other than they were "good". Off the top of my head: being an in-demand job, being the party leader (and taking the time to form the party), having a higher level be an assist or simply paying.

You have to remember, people got to lvl 50 before they hit this road block. Back in the day, that was a big time commitment. Barely anyone walked away from the game because they got held up for a week or two back then. There were jobs who waited that long for invites to normal exp parties.

So to recap:

G1 was done in exp parties, alliances, high level assist or people simply paid.
G2 was done in alliances and/or with high level assist or people simply paid.
G3 was done in an alliance and/or with high level assist or people simply paid.
G4 was solo.

This is not a filter at all, it is an annoyance at best. I didn't know of anyone who quit the game because of the genkais. I knew a lot of people who quit the game because their job had stigma attached to it or they just could not commit to the time requirements or simply got frustrated with not getting to party for days/weeks at a time. I also know that back then, a crappy whm/rdm/pali/nin/brd/smn was better than no party and no exp for the night. As such, I knew of a lot of people who were crappy who made it through the game.


edit:

I should also mention that the maat fight had plenty of articles outlining how to beat them. Most people followed the formulas - you know, build tp, do <x> ability, do <x> weapon skill, 2hr, pray maat doesnt asuran fists you to death. It was really only a matter of time with that one as well. Though to be honest, it was a very good attempt at a skill filter. Internet guides and complete randomness of it kinda clipped that effectiveness though.

Edited, Oct 23rd 2011 3:41pm by KacesofCaitsith
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#120 Oct 23 2011 at 2:07 PM Rating: Default
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KacesofCaitsith wrote:
RamseySylph wrote:

It's more that they're such a pain in the *** that they weed out many players who basically say "@#%^ this it requires too much effort." Not everyone had high level players to run them through. And that's also why I pointed to early FFXI, before players really had the chance to get run through most content.


I have to disagree. When i first played ffxi (back in NA release) there were plenty of people who got by the limit breaks (up to the maat fight) for a bunch of reasons other than they were "good". Off the top of my head: being an in-demand job, being the party leader (and taking the time to form the party), having a higher level be an assist or simply paying.

You have to remember, people got to lvl 50 before they hit this road block. Back in the day, that was a big time commitment. Barely anyone walked away from the game because they got held up for a week or two back then. There were jobs who waited that long for invites to normal exp parties.

So to recap:

G1 was done in exp parties, alliances, high level assist or people simply paid.
G2 was done in alliances and/or with high level assist or people simply paid.
G3 was done in an alliance and/or with high level assist or people simply paid.
G4 was solo.

This is not a filter at all, it is an annoyance at best. I didn't know of anyone who quit the game because of the genkais. I knew a lot of people who quit the game because their job had stigma attached to it or they just could not commit to the time requirements or simply got frustrated with not getting to party for days/weeks at a time. I also know that back then, a crappy whm/rdm/pali/nin/brd/smn was better than no party and no exp for the night. As such, I knew of a lot of people who were crappy who made it through the game.


edit:

I should also mention that the maat fight had plenty of articles outlining how to beat them. Most people followed the formulas - you know, build tp, do <x> ability, do <x> weapon skill, 2hr, pray maat doesnt asuran fists you to death. It was really only a matter of time with that one as well. Though to be honest, it was a very good attempt at a skill filter. Internet guides and complete randomness of it kinda clipped that effectiveness though.

Edited, Oct 23rd 2011 3:41pm by KacesofCaitsith


I didn't say they had to be good to get past a limit break, I said they had to not say ********** this is too much effort." You're totally ignoring my point. I'm not implying that everyone who made it to 75 in FFXI was a saint-like rocket-scientist. I'm simply saying that the game tried your patience, and required some level of sentience. It limited it's own audience in this way, but also made for a marginally more sentient player base.

There are people who hit the maximum level in other games that barely know how to communicate with other players.

Genkai is just an example of the type of design philosophy that FFXI took towards most things, and that created the environment for a different type of community. Making the argument that because some players bypassed the intended method for the completion of this small example, does not dismiss the example, or the overall point.
#121 Oct 23 2011 at 3:12 PM Rating: Decent
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RamseySylph wrote:
It's more that they're such a pain in the *** that they weed out many players who basically say "@#%^ this it requires too much effort." Not everyone had high level players to run them through. And that's also why I pointed to early FFXI, before players really had the chance to get run through most content.


I don't agree that it 'weeded out' anyone. There were plenty of pain in the *** quests that would have 'weeded out' lazy people before limit breaks. Anyone who would have been turned off by quests like this would never have gotten past unlocking their subjobs and would have quit by then.

Games are supposed to be challenging yes, but they are also supposed to be fun. Even people who enjoyed other parts of the game 'put up' with these boring and tedious quests to progress to something they thought would be more enjoyable. This measure is different for different people. The social aspect of these quests doesn't really force teamwork or communication either.

"Do we have a tank? Check. Do we have a healer? Check. Does anyone know where we need to go to complete the objective? Check." Beyond that it is possible that players formed friendships or later looked up other players they did missions with for help or advice, but other than that I remember seeing people I'd run limit breaks with and saying "Hey, you remember that time we all had to suffer for hours in the basement of Eldieme for a stupid parchment?" It's not exactly a 'those were the days' moment.


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#122 Oct 23 2011 at 7:16 PM Rating: Decent
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RamseySylph wrote:
I didn't say they had to be good to get past a limit break, I said they had to not say "@#%^ this is too much effort." You're totally ignoring my point. I'm not implying that everyone who made it to 75 in FFXI was a saint-like rocket-scientist. I'm simply saying that the game tried your patience, and required some level of sentience. It limited it's own audience in this way, but also made for a marginally more sentient player base.


If it's any consolation, Ramsey, I both understand your point and agree with it.

It's a pretty simple statement: a game with more difficulties requires more effort/patience from players. Even if some of those events/requirements/quests are tedious, they do, at the very least, weed out those with next-to-no attention span and patience to overcome them. Because FFXI was a game that didn't stoop to accommodate every last ultra-casual's single monthly hour of playtime, the absolute lowest-investment players who can't even suffer such requirements to exist in a game would not, and could not, play. Such a point is true.
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"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#123 Oct 24 2011 at 8:15 AM Rating: Good
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
RamseySylph wrote:
It's more that they're such a pain in the *** that they weed out many players who basically say "@#%^ this it requires too much effort." Not everyone had high level players to run them through. And that's also why I pointed to early FFXI, before players really had the chance to get run through most content.


I don't agree that it 'weeded out' anyone. There were plenty of pain in the *** quests that would have 'weeded out' lazy people before limit breaks. Anyone who would have been turned off by quests like this would never have gotten past unlocking their subjobs and would have quit by then.

Games are supposed to be challenging yes, but they are also supposed to be fun. Even people who enjoyed other parts of the game 'put up' with these boring and tedious quests to progress to something they thought would be more enjoyable. This measure is different for different people. The social aspect of these quests doesn't really force teamwork or communication either.

"Do we have a tank? Check. Do we have a healer? Check. Does anyone know where we need to go to complete the objective? Check." Beyond that it is possible that players formed friendships or later looked up other players they did missions with for help or advice, but other than that I remember seeing people I'd run limit breaks with and saying "Hey, you remember that time we all had to suffer for hours in the basement of Eldieme for a stupid parchment?" It's not exactly a 'those were the days' moment.


Except that it those were "the days" moments. I'm sorry, but I have to tend to agree that the circa 2005/2006 FFXI was a unique community compared to modern MMO's. Every game has idiots/morons/etc., just like every workplace has "that guy/girl" and every community has a Wal-Mart, so on and so forth. But the community aspect of FFXI is what made me play it for as long as I did.

I've played a lot of other MMO's, I played WoW for about an equal amount of time I played FFXI, and I never had the community equivalent to FFXI in all the MMO's I've played. I have friends I made in FFXI that I still speak to consistently, I knew hundreds of people on my server. I always knew who to look for and who would help, and likewise I would get /tell's from people almost immediately when I logged on asking questions, or if I had time to help, etc.

That doesn't happen anymore. A lot of the time, anything that manifest's itself as a barrier immediately results in the community backlash at the dev's for making things too difficult. If you can't solo it, it shouldn't be there. While I know there will be compromise and FFXIV will not be able to survive if it approaches everything the way FFXI did...I pray that they at least retain elements like this for the End-Game content and whatnot so that there is some natural barriers and weeding tools to help form a better high-level community overall.
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#124 Oct 24 2011 at 3:38 PM Rating: Good
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Ruisu wrote:
rubina wrote:
Why did the original devs refuse to "borrow" FF systems & lore which could have greatly enhanced FFXIV? I still think they could look at their own FF franchise for great ideas to help with the new rebuild.
As has been said before, FFXI borrowed from Everquest because it was the template MMO at the time. It's only logical that FFXIV borrow from this era's current template MMO.


For starters, they could have used a lot of Final Fantasy Lore & job archtypes from the entire FF franchise. So what exactly did they borrow from the rest of the MMORPG universe?

Where is the global Auction House?
Where are the skill trees?
Where is the alternate advancement system trees?
Where are the dedicated healing jobs that's not an oddball hybrid?
Where are the distinct FF magic jobs like the Black, White, Blue, Red Mages?
Where are the multi-job at once job system?
Where is the Final Fantasy Lore which makes the FF game head-n-shoulders better IMHO then other games.
Where are the personal mounts?
Where are the mounts where you can invite team mates to ride in?
Where is the flying system?
Where is the side-kicking or mentoring of lower levels?
Where is the auto-forming teams for missions & dungeons?
Where is the feature that allows for offline crafting?
Where are the guild halls?
Where are the guild banks?
Where are the player housing with guest rights?
Where is the ability to teleport team mates to your current location?
Where is the ability to setup a rally point so your guildmates can teleport to the raid?
Where are quest/mission terminals where you can pull a mission anytime and with no cooldowns?
Where is the ability to "level" your weapon so you can customize and enhance your skills?


I'm sure that I'm missing several dozen more features that paying customers would appreciate to be in a modern game. I admit I see a lot of crafting which is a big plus in my book, but where is the fun with the rest of the game?

#125 Oct 24 2011 at 8:25 PM Rating: Good
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rubina wrote:
For starters, they could have used a lot of Final Fantasy Lore & job archtypes from the entire FF franchise. So what exactly did they borrow from the rest of the MMORPG universe?
If you're talking about XIV, they didn't borrow anything when this game launched last September. In fact, Team Tanaka went out of its way to be so different as to ignore their previous game. That blew up in their faces, hence why Yoshida seems to be steering the game in a direction similar to modern MMOs, which like it or not, are influenced in some capacity by WoW. Just like FFXI was steered to copy the then-timesink oriented design of EQ. Down to the rare spawn mobs with awesome loot.

Seeing that there's changes down the pipes (including a lot of the stuff you asked for on that list), we have to wait and see what it looks like in the end. The only real concern that I would comment on is that yes, Final Fantasy made the mistake of placing all its chips into the White Mage job. We're at a point where SE has to invent another healing job (I volunteer Green Mage) or adapt/sacrifice an existing job to fit that bill. The problem with the latter is that as a former Red Mage player, that sort of thing is not something I'd wish on anyone. It's a horrible thing to see your favorite job being turned into the group's cure/buff-***** thanks to lack of foresight from the developers.

Edited, Oct 24th 2011 10:26pm by Ruisu
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#126 Oct 25 2011 at 2:40 PM Rating: Default
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Ruisu wrote:

Seeing that there's changes down the pipes (including a lot of the stuff you asked for on that list), we have to wait and see what it looks like in the end. The only real concern that I would comment on is that yes, Final Fantasy made the mistake of placing all its chips into the White Mage job. We're at a point where SE has to invent another healing job (I volunteer Green Mage) or adapt/sacrifice an existing job to fit that bill. The problem with the latter is that as a former Red Mage player, that sort of thing is not something I'd wish on anyone. It's a horrible thing to see your favorite job being turned into the group's cure/buff-***** thanks to lack of foresight from the developers.

Edited, Oct 24th 2011 10:26pm by Ruisu


Back when i played FFXI in 2004 I would never use a WHM as a healer. My party back then almost all the time was mnk,nin,thf,blm,rdm,brd. That was of course as soon as rdm had refresh.

One other thing since we are talking how time sink or what ever makes a better player...No. Sorry but 2004/2005 I usually shied away from non jp parties, even when I built my parties *which was a majority of the time* I still usually just picked up jp players. *now this wasnt always the case but a lot of the time* I could go from the exact same party build to just changing the players jp to english players and go from 6-7 exp chain combos to 1-2..Western players just seemed to suck at the game more then less of the time. Maybe later after time they become better players * I had quit in 05* but I still seen a lot of bad players in ffxi. So the barriers didnt really do much.

EQ even had a few bad players at 50. not that many....because the extreme time sink/ repercussion if you died<<<and I dont think it was the time sink that did it, it was the repercussion if you died that stopped the bad players.

#127 Oct 25 2011 at 3:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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elicuevas wrote:
Ruisu wrote:

Seeing that there's changes down the pipes (including a lot of the stuff you asked for on that list), we have to wait and see what it looks like in the end. The only real concern that I would comment on is that yes, Final Fantasy made the mistake of placing all its chips into the White Mage job. We're at a point where SE has to invent another healing job (I volunteer Green Mage) or adapt/sacrifice an existing job to fit that bill. The problem with the latter is that as a former Red Mage player, that sort of thing is not something I'd wish on anyone. It's a horrible thing to see your favorite job being turned into the group's cure/buff-***** thanks to lack of foresight from the developers.

Edited, Oct 24th 2011 10:26pm by Ruisu


Back when i played FFXI in 2004 I would never use a WHM as a healer. My party back then almost all the time was mnk,nin,thf,blm,rdm,brd. That was of course as soon as rdm had refresh.


You just made his point. That party setup you listed caters to a role that RDM players didn't want to fill. WHM had stronger heals while RDM was a mp battery.

What you did 7 years ago isn't going to fly now. The whole purpose for the 'classless' class system in XIV is so that people have options in what they want to do and it should support people in the way that they want to play. At least, that's how they touted it.

People don't want to see the new(old) jobs slide into the same old role they did years ago. I'm curious why people are even excited about jobs if they think that is what will end up happening anyway.
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#128 Oct 25 2011 at 3:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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I remember back in 2003-2004, I wanted RDM to heal. I didn't really want a RDM to do anything other than heal then. Refresh was awesome, but I certainly wasn't going to get a RDM in addition to a WHM and BLM who pretty much have the debuffs covered. The jack of all trades RDM who wanted to backup heal, debuff, magic burst, and melee in between was not something i wanted to be involved with.
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#129 Oct 25 2011 at 4:12 PM Rating: Good
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elicuevas wrote:
Back when i played FFXI in 2004 I would never use a WHM as a healer. My party back then almost all the time was mnk,nin,thf,blm,rdm,brd. That was of course as soon as rdm had refresh.

One other thing since we are talking how time sink or what ever makes a better player...No. Sorry but 2004/2005 I usually shied away from non jp parties, even when I built my parties *which was a majority of the time* I still usually just picked up jp players. *now this wasnt always the case but a lot of the time* I could go from the exact same party build to just changing the players jp to english players and go from 6-7 exp chain combos to 1-2..Western players just seemed to suck at the game more then less of the time. Maybe later after time they become better players * I had quit in 05* but I still seen a lot of bad players in ffxi. So the barriers didnt really do much.

EQ even had a few bad players at 50. not that many....because the extreme time sink/ repercussion if you died<<<and I dont think it was the time sink that did it, it was the repercussion if you died that stopped the bad players.



...

NA/EU players are no more worse than JP players. In fact, they usually end up being better players in the long run than JP due to their more aggressive nature in gaming versus the Japanese mindset of being conservative. This is a general statement to be true, but it's one I've found pretty apt.

I've never been in any JP group where any of them want to bother taking any sort of risks. They prefer groups to be balanced around safety and longevity. As MMOs have proven time and time again, however, attempting to outlast an enemy almost *never* really works well because it just gives good 'ol RNG more chances to ***** you over.

Furthermore, only a truly moronic person would make a general sweeping statement of "western players seemed to suck more" over a group of players that already had said game for almost two years. Yes, clearly western players "suck" simply because they didn't immediately conquer an MMO designed by developers lead by a producer with an incredible sadistic nature. Only an idiot would consider people terrible when they play an MMO that throws them into the jumbled mess with no guiding hand of any kind (aside from 50 gil) or any basic instructions.

Secondly, it doesn't help your ramblings when try to state that your gloriously perfect JP parties always pulled off these "amazing" chain 6 and 7 when that's not the case at all. JP players themselves designed their party mindset around the thought that in order to get the most EXP out of a gaming session that they needed to kill IT++ monsters. Go ahead; read any commentary about how the game really was when it launched and the majority of them either outright state how group mentality changed or it's heavily inferred if one possesses any intellect. It was the WESTERNERS that managed to push the mentality of "killing more T/VT monsters quicker results in faster EXP" onto the populace.

Lastly, nothing stops bad players. NOTHING. No quest, no boss, no bullsh*t archaic mechanics in a game will prevent a bad player from doing the same things most other gamers do and it's utterly foolish to think and/or believe it will.

Edited, Oct 25th 2011 6:13pm by Viertel
#130 Oct 25 2011 at 4:59 PM Rating: Decent
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Viertel wrote:
JP players themselves designed their party mindset around the thought that in order to get the most EXP out of a gaming session that they needed to kill IT++ monsters. Go ahead; read any commentary about how the game really was when it launched and the majority of them either outright state how group mentality changed or it's heavily inferred if one possesses any intellect. It was the WESTERNERS that managed to push the mentality of "killing more T/VT monsters quicker results in faster EXP" onto the populace.


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#131 Oct 25 2011 at 5:02 PM Rating: Decent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
People don't want to see the new(old) jobs slide into the same old role they did years ago. I'm curious why people are even excited about jobs if they think that is what will end up happening anyway.
Nostalgia and that weird "identity" thing that people brought over from FFXI. I would have settled for the classic jobs with talent trees. At least that way you can't pigeonhole a job into a particular role 100% of the time. Yes, hybrids (RDM, PLD, DRK) benefit from that sort of thing more than other jobs when properly balanced, but still.
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#132 Oct 25 2011 at 5:19 PM Rating: Excellent
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Already the role of a dedicated healer is hard to come by in FFXIV. Making jobs capable of being a 'white mage' will make the role of healer much harder to fill, honestly, because I don't believe they'll have many takers.

Personally, I'm more in favor of having the widely adaptable approach of the current jobs. If jumping into one of the 'job' characterizations means cutting out my versatility I've gained by leveling multiple jobs, then I won't use them.

If it just enhances my native traits that fall in line with the 'job' concept, with little to no negative effect on my other traits, (thinking more FFT style) then I'm all for it.
#133elicuevas, Posted: Oct 25 2011 at 5:29 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) You talk to hear yourself talk. 6/7 chain exp on IT++ mobs was not that hard in ffxi back in 04. Im guessing you are one of the bad players I categorized, seeing how you reacted. I'm sorry it took you more then 1 year to learn how to play a game. Im guessing it was your first MMO? I also pointed out that yes maybe the players became better after time because they needed to learn how the **** worked. I had already been doing the EQ thing for awhile, so i didn't find the game sadistic. Again that really shows it was your first MMO.
#134 Oct 25 2011 at 7:20 PM Rating: Decent
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Hyrist wrote:
Already the role of a dedicated healer is hard to come by in FFXIV. Making jobs capable of being a 'white mage' will make the role of healer much harder to fill, honestly, because I don't believe they'll have many takers.

Personally, I'm more in favor of having the widely adaptable approach of the current jobs. If jumping into one of the 'job' characterizations means cutting out my versatility I've gained by leveling multiple jobs, then I won't use them.

If it just enhances my native traits that fall in line with the 'job' concept, with little to no negative effect on my other traits, (thinking more FFT style) then I'm all for it.


Well, SE already said that it will be cutting out some of your versatility when you activate the jobs: certain cross-class skills will become unavailable. But, of course, you would only use the jobs when they're needed, so I don't see how it's a problem. Yes, you may some of your damage ability when your Archer turns Bard, for example, but you're only turning Bard when you want to be doing support, so realistically there's very little conflict.

That said, I love dedicated healing and dedicated support roles, and I'm greedily hoping that Bard is as anti-damage as can be. If I wanted damage, I could stay Archer! Or level Pugulist, or Marauder, or Conjurer, or Lancer, or change to Dragoon, or Warrior, or Black Mage. At least give me one or two classes/jobs that don't have to be DD!
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#135 Oct 25 2011 at 8:36 PM Rating: Good
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KaneKitty wrote:
That said, I love dedicated healing and dedicated support roles, and I'm greedily hoping that Bard is as anti-damage as can be.
All that would succeed in doing is recreate the princess bard idiocy we saw in FFXI. With Bard this time being based off a damage class, there'd be some incentive to create real engaging gameplay while making it appealing to more people. At least that way if Matsui decides to start balancing content around the presence of a Bard, groups won't be so hard pressed to find one with more players actively using the job. Not to mention, XIV's take on bard is more classic bard rather than Edwardesque bard (also a good thing). Classic bards were known to be able to hold their own in a fight, you know.

Edited, Oct 25th 2011 10:37pm by Ruisu
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#136 Oct 25 2011 at 9:46 PM Rating: Decent
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In all seriousness, it's not like bard was hard to unlock in FFXI; the "princess bard" was only able to be cultivated in an environment in which hordes of people wanted to AFK + auto-attack in parties instead of play a job that was always busy. XD

Ruisu wrote:
Classic bards were known to be able to hold their own in a fight, you know.


Like Shakespeare!
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#137 Oct 25 2011 at 11:26 PM Rating: Good
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KaneKitty wrote:
the "princess bard" was only able to be cultivated in an environment in which hordes of people wanted to AFK + auto-attack in parties instead of play a job that was always busy
False. The princess bard (and the princess RDM, by extension) existed because they had something everyone wanted or felt they needed in their groups, and few individuals barring the most shrewd were willing to actually play it.
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Like Shakespeare!
William Shakespeare was a fictional character within the fantasy genre? News to me. Classic bards are rogues in every sense of the word (yes, including the skills in combat), and that's on top of possessing a silk tongue. Thancred easily comes to mind.
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#138 Oct 26 2011 at 12:35 AM Rating: Good
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Ruisu wrote:
The princess bard (and the princess RDM, by extension) existed because they had something everyone wanted or felt they needed in their groups, and few individuals barring the most shrewd were willing to actually play it.


Or without it for that matter.
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#139 Oct 26 2011 at 1:54 AM Rating: Good
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Ruisu wrote:
[quote=KaneKitty]Classic bards are rogues in every sense of the word (yes, including the skills in combat), and that's on top of possessing a silk tongue. Thancred easily comes to mind.


Like DnD Bard or Bard's Tale.

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#140 Oct 26 2011 at 3:13 AM Rating: Decent
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Khornette wrote:
Ruisu wrote:
[quote=KaneKitty]Classic bards are rogues in every sense of the word (yes, including the skills in combat), and that's on top of possessing a silk tongue. Thancred easily comes to mind.
Like DnD Bard or Bard's Tale.
And Leliana from Dragon Age.

Based on all the raging I saw over Archer => Bard, I was beginning to feel that I was the only one who knew about D&D, Dragon Age and Bard's Tale. XD

Edited, Oct 26th 2011 5:14am by Ruisu
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#141 Oct 26 2011 at 10:35 AM Rating: Decent
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Ruisu wrote:
KaneKitty wrote:
Like Shakespeare!
William Shakespeare was a fictional character within the fantasy genre? News to me.


It was a joke; I was making use of Shakespeare's epithet to try and produce humorous results - in this case, Shakespeare brandishing a knife, or something.
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#142 Oct 26 2011 at 10:53 AM Rating: Good
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KaneKitty wrote:
Viertel wrote:
JP players themselves designed their party mindset around the thought that in order to get the most EXP out of a gaming session that they needed to kill IT++ monsters. Go ahead; read any commentary about how the game really was when it launched and the majority of them either outright state how group mentality changed or it's heavily inferred if one possesses any intellect. It was the WESTERNERS that managed to push the mentality of "killing more T/VT monsters quicker results in faster EXP" onto the populace.


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The last time I checked EU also played FFXI.

Thanks for looking like an idiot and trying to be funny (but failing miserably).

Ruisu wrote:
KaneKitty wrote:
That said, I love dedicated healing and dedicated support roles, and I'm greedily hoping that Bard is as anti-damage as can be.
All that would succeed in doing is recreate the princess bard idiocy we saw in FFXI. With Bard this time being based off a damage class, there'd be some incentive to create real engaging gameplay while making it appealing to more people. At least that way if Matsui decides to start balancing content around the presence of a Bard, groups won't be so hard pressed to find one with more players actively using the job. Not to mention, XIV's take on bard is more classic bard rather than Edwardesque bard (also a good thing). Classic bards were known to be able to hold their own in a fight, you know.


Yeah. I've played bard twice (years ago upon launch as BRD/NIN tank for a linkshell) and recently again during Abyssea. After having played Minstrel for half a year in LotRO I couldn't stand going back to a pure support role because frankly they're boring. If you're in a support role (and that alone like FFXI's BRD) then you're simply there for a few buffs/debuffs and then spend the rest of the time sitting around waiting to buff again.

Minstrel was a breath of freedom to me after FFXI because the entire concept of the class still revolved around dealing damage. Granted, it wasn't a *lot* of damage (unless you decided to go down a full melee warpath and gave up a lot of the power of your buffs), but you still needed to deal damage for the rest of the group to receive the buffs.

FFXI's BRD is just too stale and boring now in comparison. The only reason is really works in FFXI is because the game itself is really simple. Sure, the calculations of some of the formulae are somewhat complex but the actual game mechanics themselves are child's play. Support only BRD worked in FFXI simply because you had the option to be another class if you wished to be a full healer or deal damage (or a 'real' tank). I really can't see another support only class being received well at all in FFXIV.

Ultimately, if you want Bard to be a pure support I equate that to basically stating "I want to play a job where I basically do nothing for the majority of fights but still get to go because my buffs are that important."

Edited, Oct 26th 2011 1:07pm by Viertel
#143 Oct 26 2011 at 11:27 AM Rating: Decent
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Viertel wrote:
Ultimately, if you want Bard to be a pure support I equate that to basically stating "I want to play a job where I basically do nothing for the majority of fights but still get to go because my buffs are that important."


Saying that "support is boring" is a matter of opinion; something is as interesting as the person doing it believes it to be because we all have fun doing different things.

But to the purpose of the quote: saying that I want bard to be pure support is not saying that I want to barely play at all; did you play bard (especially in merit parties) in FFXI? In FFXI, bard was generally responsible for pulling, buffing two groups of members (and sometimes tossing out a third round of buffs, if there was someone with special needs, like a ranger who needs ranged accuracy), keeping a spare monster slept, doing some slight enfeebling, and keeping their own shadows up. Buffs only lasted about 2 minutes, so the process had to be constantly repeated, all while keeping pace with other members' movements and kill-speed, and while usually competing with other parties and dodging or managing aggro.

I don't know how you equate dedicated support with "basically do[ing] nothing for the majority of fights," because that's simply not true. A dedicated support - at least in the case of bard in FFXI - generally has more responsibilities than the average member. If anything, I would see damage dealers frequently attacking the wrong monsters, sitting at 300% TP, or looking the wrong way and not even auto-attacking. I don't mean to say that DD are stupid - they need to gear themselves well, they need to find an efficient ability rotation, and a great DD increases exp./hour just as well as anything and is a pleasure to have in the party - I just mean to point out that your association of support with laziness is far from the truth of the matter, if you're playing a supportive role well.
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#144 Oct 26 2011 at 4:29 PM Rating: Decent
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The status quo of MMOs is that all classes play fairly similar. Support classes probably have the largest difference in pacing during combat, and how they play from any other class. Why many players feel like every class has to be enjoyable for them personally to play is interesting. That can only happen if all classes play within the realm of what you consider enjoyable, which may be a very narrow area.

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