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Player add ons: a good or bad idea?Follow

#1 Oct 15 2011 at 8:24 PM Rating: Decent
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After seeing the recent announcements and pdf files, I'm happy with 99% of things in the concept arts, or pictures, or whatever. The only thing that I have a strong opinion against is the user add-ons.

Reason being is that I could have sworn I have read some WoW developer saying that their allowing of add-ons make balancing content extremely hard (unfortunately I can't remember WHERE I've seen this). A boss that's a challenge for people without add ons is stupidly easy for people with the right add-ons. I'm not sure how it is in WoW, but I don't want to practically be forced to use third party add ons so I can spam one button to automatically find a guy in a 40 (?) man raid who has a curse debuff from the boss so I cast my decurse spell on him automatically (That's what I've seen my friend did).

My point is, my impression of add ons is that they give the players the freedom to customise their UI, but at the same time I've seen add ons that make playing the game almost pointless (like my example), or the add ons are almost required to be the most 'efficient' in fighting that particular content, and the fight may be almost impossible without the add ons.

Any WoW players can attest to that? (I think add ons are allowed on very few MMOs, WoW being the most popular of them with tons of add ons, and that's why I go specifically with WoW.)
#2 Oct 15 2011 at 8:38 PM Rating: Decent
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Responded in the other WoW post where I still feel like it was perfectly on topic, but I'll post it here too...

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It depends on how much of the API add-on creators have access to, being a Japanese company, and one with hesitance to even implement add-ons (I am sure it was a hot debate) it's likely they'll give us less access to the API.

You're probably thinking of the various healing addons they have in WoW, where you can rig a spell to a mouse click, and then click on a player's health bar to cast it. Thus you can dispel status effects with a single click, instead of pressing a key then clicking.

For bosses they have Deadly Boss Mods, which simply yell at you if you're "standing in the fire" and warn you when an ability is about to activate. In reality, as long as SE designs encounters well, something like DBM won't really make a difference for experience players, it will simply make it obvious to players who haven't done the fight before what to do.

There needs to be some clear way to see that a boss is activating an ability, or casting a spell and what that spell or ability is in the UI. In addition, there need to be "tells" before a boss is about to activate a skill. At that point something like DBM really isn't all that useful.


Overall I think it's a good thing, people want it, and it's become a standard in MMOs. If it lets me customize the UI to my liking in some cases, add music to areas without it (Why the **** don't dungeons have music?) etc. etc. Those are things I would love to be able to do.

As I said in the above quote, I think if a developer complains about things like DBM making fights difficult to balance, it's a cop out. Make the fight more reactionary and randomize ability usage. DBM does three things, helps you remember when a boss is going to use an ability, call out when you're being a dumb-*** (aka standing in fire), and makes it more transparent when a boss is actually using a skill.

If the encounters are designed well enough and the UI makes it clear enough what skills a boss is using (which it should, otherwise the difficulty is created by the UI, not the encounter), an addon like DBM will only help people who aren't paying attention be slightly more sentient.
#3 Oct 16 2011 at 2:48 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:
so I can spam one button to automatically find a guy in a 40 (?) man raid who has a curse debuff from the boss so I cast my decurse spell on him automatically (That's what I've seen my friend did).


Blizzard removed this add-on really fast now you have to click a button on his box which is what you had to do anyway

I feel it makes the game hard and easier at the same time on one hand i get more information on my healer so i can see what debuff people have on them and in a sec i will know if i should dispell it or not

on the other hand it can make the fight that much harder such as needing to know when he does a big aoe so we can all stack up on one person

but in the end i think they are for the better because they give you information you may want to see or if you don't just don't play with them and if one gets to the point were its needed they can add it to the game themselfs blizzard does this all the time

here a video of it in action anyway
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWbE-iUFVcQ

the bars next to my heal cast bars is dbm when the boss is about to use a moves it in under my hp bars

Edited, Oct 16th 2011 4:54am by scottyjames
#4 Oct 16 2011 at 3:05 AM Rating: Default
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Once you buy the game wtf business is it whether you use add ons or not? Am I supposed to be a slave to the corporation? Who is John Galt?
#5 Oct 16 2011 at 3:20 AM Rating: Good
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They forbid you to use addons on XI, most serious players still use them. They just wised up to the reality of the situation.
#6 Oct 16 2011 at 3:52 AM Rating: Good
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Considering no game dev has been able to compete with the community as far as UI design goes, I welcome add-ons. FFXI was practically unplayable without Windower and certain plugins (TParty, Recast Timers) and just plain worse without others (Draw Distance).

As long as the add-on isn't powerful enough to replace the player's decision-making, it's probably fine and enhances the gaming experience of its user.
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#7 Oct 16 2011 at 9:04 AM Rating: Good
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Let me break down your post and address all of your points. Not trying to be nasty here, just clarifying some things about WOW's addons.

Enfid wrote:
Reason being is that I could have sworn I have read some WoW developer saying that their allowing of add-ons make balancing content extremely hard (unfortunately I can't remember WHERE I've seen this).


What you've probably heard is that Blizzard is purposely designing boss fights knowing that the majority people are going to be using addons like threat meter, Deadly Boss Mods (timer/boss ability info), and some sort of custom UI that caters to their play style. This doesn't really mean anything, because Blizzard themselves have integrated all of these addons into the default UI (much like how FFXIV is doing it). WOW now has a built-in threat meter; you get shout, tell, emote, or visual warnings in the middle of boss fights about upcoming events; and WOW's default UI has seen massive improvements.

In actuality, Blizzard basically said that they will be moving away from bosses that have random raid-wiping abilities and move towards a model that tests twitch reflex, pattern memorization, raid makeup, and gear. It doesn't make content harder to balance at all.


Quote:
A boss that's a challenge for people without add ons is stupidly easy for people with the right add-ons.


I didn't think this was the case. I was a tank in WOW for 4 years and I played on and off with addons; I never noticed a difference. Mostly because like I said above, there is more than just knowing what a boss does and when it does it, if you want to beat the boss. If I backed myself in a stupid position, if my gear sucks, if I'm tired and my reflexes are slow, or if my raid doesn't have the right classes or interrupts, it doesn't matter if I know whether a deadly ability is coming up or not. I'm going to die, and the raid is going to die.

I stopped using threat meters in WOW, and only rarely used DBM, and I was still able to be in one of the better raid guilds. After I learned every fight, DBM did nothing for me.

Quote:
I'm not sure how it is in WoW, but I don't want to practically be forced to use third party add ons so I can spam one button to automatically find a guy in a 40 (?) man raid who has a curse debuff from the boss so I cast my decurse spell on him automatically (That's what I've seen my friend did).


Two things here.

One, you are only forced to use an addon because of social pressure. It was used as a safety net of sorts early on in WOW's history to make sure that players new to a raid were paying attention, not ******** simple things up, and learning the fights. You can get by through all of WOW's boss fights today without addons, provided you know the fights. See above.

Two, the addon which you're talking about that let someone do a "one click heal" is functionality already available with WOW's default UI and macros. WOW's default UI has raid frames, which gives you a compact list of all 10-40 players in your raid, and macros allow casting on "mouse hover" or "on click". And it's actually how HealBot (is that what it is now?) and Decursive work; they create their own macro entry in your macro table, and reskin the default WOW raid frames to let you do "mouse hover" and "on click" actions.

Quote:
My point is, my impression of add ons is that they give the players the freedom to customise their UI, but at the same time I've seen add ons that make playing the game almost pointless (like my example), or the add ons are almost required to be the most 'efficient' in fighting that particular content, and the fight may be almost impossible without the add ons.

Any WoW players can attest to that? (I think add ons are allowed on very few MMOs, WoW being the most popular of them with tons of add ons, and that's why I go specifically with WoW.)


Bottom line, WOW's addons don't let you do anything WOW's default UI doesn't. They simply re-organize and re-skin information that's already available to you. Blizzard has been pretty quick about stamping out any addon that automates gameplay in any way. I wouldn't worry about it.
#8 Oct 16 2011 at 9:46 AM Rating: Decent
I know this isn't FFXI, but I still find it a little odd that a gaming company that forbade and banned people in it's previous MMO for using add-ons is allowing it in the next installment. I'm not particularly for or against them, but lets just hope this isn't a repeat of the PL situation.

"PL is OK!"

"Ok we're fixing PL..."

I don't want to see them allow the add-ons, then say it's not ok and try to punish people later on.
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#9 Oct 16 2011 at 5:11 PM Rating: Good
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Thanks for the info guys, especially scottyjames and Wolfums (and no the reply was not nasty at all, but quite enlightening. I understand how some people can take offense to their post being 'broken down'). It makes me feel better to know that player add ons will not be automating things to pointless levels.

As to the Decurse thing, the version I've seen my friend use (a few years ago) probably WAS the one Scottyjames talked about: you press a button on your keyboard and it finds, targets, and decurse a raid member without looking at anyone's stats. Good to know it was removed quickly.

In the end, I just hope the FFXIV team learned the good and bad of add ons from WoW and adjust accordingly, and hopefully not repeat the same mistakes.
#10 Oct 16 2011 at 8:21 PM Rating: Default
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Enfid wrote:
As to the Decurse thing, the version I've seen my friend use (a few years ago) probably WAS the one Scottyjames talked about: you press a button on your keyboard and it finds, targets, and decurse a raid member without looking at anyone's stats. Good to know it was removed quickly.


Yeah, Decursive (the real, original version) I believed was majorly altered and taken out at least by the first expansion and maybe a patch or two sooner. By the launch of TBC though, it was definitely taken out. WhisperCast was also taken out (but this was when Paladin blessings were still 5 minute durations) which allowed you to set up a list of buffs to automatically cast on someone during a raid if they merely sent you a tell (i.e. /t Viertel kings/thorns/fortitude/etc.) in case they were raised mid-combat.

Blizzard's actually been pretty good about stamping out addons that actually physically alter/draw upon the game world. I know at the end of my 6 year WoW career as a tank the only thing I ended up using addons for was just to alter the UI look to my fitting; I let the rest of my officers handle DBM/BigWigs and those timers so I could just focus on being MT.

In the end, it comes down to the fact that bad players will use addons and good players will use addons. Personally, if FFXIV's addons allow me to alter my UI to a setting close to what I like (VIEWPORT PLEASE), I'm all for them. If they are created with DBM styles for the lesser skilled people (and my roommates) and allow them to shape themselves into competent players, I'm all for it.




Edited, Oct 16th 2011 10:23pm by Viertel
#11 Oct 17 2011 at 10:22 AM Rating: Good
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Viertel wrote:
If they are created with DBM styles for the lesser skilled people (and my roommates) and allow them to shape themselves into competent players, I'm all for it.


Many competent players use DBM. As it stands now, XIV isn't a game that requires much strategy to defeat boss encounters so it wouldn't be seen as something helpful, much less necessary anyway. The majority of users of WoW's addons use them solely for the purpose of enhancing the interface. SE is in the unique position (yes, again) to devise a UI that is intuitive and customizable enough that it won't need addons.
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#12 Oct 17 2011 at 10:53 AM Rating: Good
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As someone who designs user interfaces professionally and on my own time, I can definitively say that it is impossible to please everyone with a given structure or design. There will always be people out there who want this widget displayed this way, or that data presented another way. It may seem a cop out for a UI designer to say this, but cosmetic user interface add-ons are undeniably the best way to please as many people as possible. It is our job to provide users with the best interface we can, and the tools to optimize that interface for each individual.

Where the discussion becomes confused is on the topics of giving players access to information they would otherwise not have, or allowing players to automate tasks through add-ons. I can only speak for myself, but I believe that add-ons should be available, but only cosmetic ones. Users should have high-level APIs to access raw statistical data about the game which can be used to completely remake the UI if they so choose, but they should not be able to alter the fundamental flow of gameplay.

I am actually quite excited about a technology called Scaleform. It's built in to quite a few open market game engines these days and allows developers to create APIs that interact with Flash applications. It's a very powerful way to partition the GUI from the rest of the game logic, and allows anyone with knowledge of Flash to make incredibly dynamic and powerful GUIs and plug them right in to the game.
#13 Oct 17 2011 at 11:04 AM Rating: Good
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I think add-ons help players compensate for skill. It seems to go with SE's stance on 14, of being more with allowing a more balanced level of play. By allowing people who would test their skill to be able to play, and the people who are trying for the "Leet" item to follow. As tools are typically designed around what people discover, they will always be one step behind those who achieve a goal naturally... But not always. As some tools will obviously be efficient enough to translate to other tasks.

Either way, will be fun to see how the auto-craft add-on plays out...
#14 Oct 17 2011 at 4:26 PM Rating: Decent
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I like some aspects of player made addons. Its a good way to let the developer know what players want. think back to very early wow, players wanted more bars so they downloaded cosmos (i think?), and a few patches later wow had added more bars to their own game. I also think with a company so set in its ways as SE, they could benefit from the player bases look at things. players creating alternate UIs and such could help guide SE into understanding why most people don't want menus and sub menus, as FF as that is. As long as its monitored and the devs are looking for broken addons like decursive was and fixing it, I'm fine with it.
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#15 Oct 17 2011 at 9:51 PM Rating: Decent
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The benefit to addon support is that the developers can control what the players are able to do with them. Bob Coder writes an addon that trivializes a certain gameplay aspect? The devs can break it. They can also (as WoW has done) monitor how many players are using a specific addon and if it's very popular, it's a key indicator that it's something the devs could consider incorporating as a feature in the default UI.

Worth noting is that WoW is not the only MMO that supports addons. LOTRO has them, AoC has them, WAR has them, and Rift has their API under development (it's already available in a limited form on live servers). And those are just the games I can think of off the top of my head. None of those games have ever seemed to suffer substantially as a result of allowing addons.

The anti-addon crowd exists in every game, and they're the most vocal if they get a chance to voice their opinion before addons are implemented. Once the API goes live and addons become available, you only see the occasional kvetch...usually someone complaining that they got turned away from a group because they didn't want to use addon <x> and the group required it in order to assist in coordinating their efforts. I used addons in WoW for specific things. I know a lot of people who were addon junkies and loaded themselves down with every addon that caught their eye. I don't use them in Rift...the system and distribution methods are brand new and I'm not interested in helping to test them. I spend most of my time in-game in PvP activities though, so if a clever addon was written that made it a little easier to track certain key bits of information or further refine my UI aesthetics, I'd definitely look into it.

The devs provide the tools, the players use them to build things, and you use those things or you don't. If you don't want to use them and that choice places you in the minority, then sometimes you have to accept that you're in the minority and adapt to the issues that may or may not create.
#16 Oct 19 2011 at 1:39 PM Rating: Good
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Edit: I have re-posted my question in a less confusing form below.

Edited, Oct 19th 2011 3:40pm by NumptyHunter

Edited, Oct 23rd 2011 10:52am by NumptyHunter
#17 Oct 19 2011 at 2:18 PM Rating: Decent
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NumptyHunter wrote:
Ps3 add-ons, how will that work?
How can SE allow player made add-ons that work equally well for Ps3 users and PC users?
Either they can (somehow?) or they can't and one platfom will have an unfair advantage over the other, totally unacceptable if you are paying the same ammount of money to play FFXIV as someone who has access to add-on based advantages you do not have.
So either they have PC only and Ps3 only servers or there is a way of vetting add-ons before people are allowed to use them "officially" perhaps by SE distributing them centrally even though they are "player made".
I say no to add-ons personally unless they are downloadable from one central source and are fair for all. Otherwise why even bother?

Edited, Oct 19th 2011 3:40pm by NumptyHunter


Because they don't really add nearly as much as you make it out to the game? SE has stated that any add-on that becomes largely popular will be built into the default UI for both systems. You're accepting some caveats when you play an MMO on the PS3. The fact that I can skin my UI to look like the Final Fantasy 1 UI on my PC and not my PS3 doesn't irk me.

If there's some addon functionality that makes it slightly more convenient for PC players to do something, that doesn't really irk me either. Playing on PC is just going to be more convenient sometimes, on the PS3 you're paying much less for a system to play the game, that's the trade-off. Anything that becomes a must have should and likely will make it to the PS3 at some point.

Using fairness as an argument here is beyond stupid. It's completely fair, you know full well going into FFXIV that if you buy the PS3 version you won't have add-on support. It's your choice. If anything it would be less fair (and stupid) to prevent PC users from being able to use add-ons, just to prevent PS3 users from perhaps being jealous of our shiny customized user interfaces?

We're talking about add-ons, not hacks, none of these things will be capable of giving a player a tremendous upper hand over another.

Edited, Oct 19th 2011 1:23pm by RamseySylph
#18 Oct 20 2011 at 6:22 AM Rating: Decent
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RamseySylph wrote:
NumptyHunter wrote:
Ps3 add-ons, how will that work?
How can SE allow player made add-ons that work equally well for Ps3 users and PC users?
Either they can (somehow?) or they can't and one platfom will have an unfair advantage over the other, totally unacceptable if you are paying the same ammount of money to play FFXIV as someone who has access to add-on based advantages you do not have.
So either they have PC only and Ps3 only servers or there is a way of vetting add-ons before people are allowed to use them "officially" perhaps by SE distributing them centrally even though they are "player made".
I say no to add-ons personally unless they are downloadable from one central source and are fair for all. Otherwise why even bother?

Edited, Oct 19th 2011 3:40pm by NumptyHunter


Because they don't really add nearly as much as you make it out to the game? SE has stated that any add-on that becomes largely popular will be built into the default UI for both systems. You're accepting some caveats when you play an MMO on the PS3. The fact that I can skin my UI to look like the Final Fantasy 1 UI on my PC and not my PS3 doesn't irk me.

If there's some addon functionality that makes it slightly more convenient for PC players to do something, that doesn't really irk me either. Playing on PC is just going to be more convenient sometimes, on the PS3 you're paying much less for a system to play the game, that's the trade-off. Anything that becomes a must have should and likely will make it to the PS3 at some point.

Using fairness as an argument here is beyond stupid. It's completely fair, you know full well going into FFXIV that if you buy the PS3 version you won't have add-on support. It's your choice. If anything it would be less fair (and stupid) to prevent PC users from being able to use add-ons, just to prevent PS3 users from perhaps being jealous of our shiny customized user interfaces?

We're talking about add-ons, not hacks, none of these things will be capable of giving a player a tremendous upper hand over another.

Edited, Oct 19th 2011 1:23pm by RamseySylph


So rather than try to answer my post you decided to read into it things that I did not even write and pour scorn on Ps3 for whatever reason.
I asked a question of the community as to what would be the best way to balance add-ons with 2 differing platforms, and all you could come up with is that because Ps3's cost less than PC's, Ps3 gamers should just accept being second class citizens despite paying the same subs.
Well done genius don't even bother next time.
#19 Oct 20 2011 at 6:36 AM Rating: Excellent
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NumptyHunter wrote:
Ps3 add-ons, how will that work?
How can SE allow player made add-ons that work equally well for Ps3 users and PC users?
Either they can (somehow?) or they can't and one platfom will have an unfair advantage over the other, totally unacceptable if you are paying the same ammount of money to play FFXIV as someone who has access to add-on based advantages you do not have.
So either they have PC only and Ps3 only servers or there is a way of vetting add-ons before people are allowed to use them "officially" perhaps by SE distributing them centrally even though they are "player made".
I say no to add-ons personally unless they are downloadable from one central source and are fair for all. Otherwise why even bother?

Edited, Oct 19th 2011 3:40pm by NumptyHunter



In the roadmap PDF, it says add-ons will be available for PC players only. PS3 players won't have them.
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#20 Oct 20 2011 at 12:20 PM Rating: Good
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NumptyHunter wrote:
Well done genius don't even bother next time.


It was already announced that add-ons would not be supported for PS3, and in your post you made a conclusion that add-ons should not be supported for the PC if they can't be supported for PS3.

I didn't jump to any conclusions, I argued that point. You shouldn't punish half your playerbase because some of them chose to play on a console. Nor should you exclude a feature that is expected in a modern mmo, for the sake of being "fair." PS3 users go into the experience knowing they won't have access to add-ons. If add-ons are important enough to you to make or break your experience, then play on PC. If they're not, then PS3 is fine. As I said, any functionality that gives PC users a significant advantage will either A. be ported to the default UI and available to PS3 players, or B. broken. A majority of add-ons will most likely simply improve upon the mouse and keyboard functionality of the UI, making it possible to play the game without a gamepad. Other than that, I expect aesthetic add-ons, as well as minor convenience add-ons, like building an item database into the UI. Shock and awe though, PC players can already tab over to ZAM/YG/FFXIVPro on their machine and do the same thing.

I know if the API allows it I'll be writing an add-on to add music to areas without music, it will give me a huge advantage over PS3 players.
#21 Oct 20 2011 at 12:29 PM Rating: Good
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Yoshi also stated that the more popular, most requested add-ons (outside the ones SE provides) will be refined by the dev team optionally added for PS3 users.


I don't mind add-ons. In xi I used windower and some of it's addons I never felt as if i were. I could be wrong, but I don't think SE would be alright with game breaking addons. As someone else mentioned they are a japanese company and I think in general they are a little bit more "tight" with their game. I could be wrong because Yoshizzle P-dizzle is a beast foshiz.

Edited, Oct 20th 2011 2:30pm by haife
#22 Oct 21 2011 at 12:52 PM Rating: Decent
RamseySylph wrote:

I know if the API allows it I'll be writing an add-on to add music to areas without music, it will give me a huge advantage over PS3 players.


You won't fall asleep as easily when trying to farm those zones! **** you PC players!
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#23 Oct 21 2011 at 9:40 PM Rating: Good
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NumptyHunter wrote:
RamseySylph wrote:
NumptyHunter wrote:
Ps3 add-ons, how will that work?
How can SE allow player made add-ons that work equally well for Ps3 users and PC users?
Either they can (somehow?) or they can't and one platfom will have an unfair advantage over the other, totally unacceptable if you are paying the same ammount of money to play FFXIV as someone who has access to add-on based advantages you do not have.
So either they have PC only and Ps3 only servers or there is a way of vetting add-ons before people are allowed to use them "officially" perhaps by SE distributing them centrally even though they are "player made".
I say no to add-ons personally unless they are downloadable from one central source and are fair for all. Otherwise why even bother?

Edited, Oct 19th 2011 3:40pm by NumptyHunter


Because they don't really add nearly as much as you make it out to the game? SE has stated that any add-on that becomes largely popular will be built into the default UI for both systems. You're accepting some caveats when you play an MMO on the PS3. The fact that I can skin my UI to look like the Final Fantasy 1 UI on my PC and not my PS3 doesn't irk me.

If there's some addon functionality that makes it slightly more convenient for PC players to do something, that doesn't really irk me either. Playing on PC is just going to be more convenient sometimes, on the PS3 you're paying much less for a system to play the game, that's the trade-off. Anything that becomes a must have should and likely will make it to the PS3 at some point.

Using fairness as an argument here is beyond stupid. It's completely fair, you know full well going into FFXIV that if you buy the PS3 version you won't have add-on support. It's your choice. If anything it would be less fair (and stupid) to prevent PC users from being able to use add-ons, just to prevent PS3 users from perhaps being jealous of our shiny customized user interfaces?

We're talking about add-ons, not hacks, none of these things will be capable of giving a player a tremendous upper hand over another.

Edited, Oct 19th 2011 1:23pm by RamseySylph


So rather than try to answer my post you decided to read into it things that I did not even write and pour scorn on Ps3 for whatever reason.
I asked a question of the community as to what would be the best way to balance add-ons with 2 differing platforms, and all you could come up with is that because Ps3's cost less than PC's, Ps3 gamers should just accept being second class citizens despite paying the same subs.
Well done genius don't even bother next time.


Not liking the truth doesn't give you any ground to tell someone they didn't answer your post. You made a stupid statement of stating "Well yeah, well, if I *I* can't use them then NO ONE ELSE SHOULD!" like an entitled little child and were called out on it.

He answered you. You simply couldn't stomach the truthful response:

If you decide to play on a console for an MMO, you willingly decide to play on the inferior platform and are locked out of additional features.


Edited, Oct 21st 2011 11:41pm by Viertel
#24 Oct 23 2011 at 8:50 AM Rating: Decent
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Ok I'll try again as I obviously didn't spell it out well enough.
What I am actually trying to discuss is "how SE will manage player made UI add-ons and how will their existence effect the community", I am a PC gamer myself, I am not complaining I won't get to use add-ons, but I have concerns about how SE is going to handle this and how it may effect the community negatively if its handled badly.
Now I don't know exactly what they are going to allow with regards to UI add-ons so I wanted to discuss what limits they may put on them. Are they going to have a much stricter control than in other MMO's for example? Is this just a token guesture from SE so they can say "we will allow player made add-ons!"? How will SE manage the distribution of add-ons, will they control it directly by making us submit all add-ons to them for authentication first?
Another point of discussion is what will happen if the community decides as it does in certain other MMO's (and almost certainly will in FFXIV) that you can't join linkshells, free companies or even take part in raids and other content unless you have a specific add-on or set of add-ons? Will we see linkshells being PC only and Ps3 only at endgame? If that is what happens we may as well just have separate servers of Ps3 and PC?
SE isn't going to retain many Ps3 subs when its Ps3 playerbase is paying the same monthly fee to be a second class citizen, so will they charge less I wonder? Certainly if given the choice nobody in their right mind would play on Ps3 at all given the above scenario!

#25 Oct 23 2011 at 11:50 AM Rating: Decent
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3,962 posts
NumptyHunter wrote:
Ok I'll try again as I obviously didn't spell it out well enough.
What I am actually trying to discuss is "how SE will manage player made UI add-ons and how will their existence effect the community", I am a PC gamer myself, I am not complaining I won't get to use add-ons, but I have concerns about how SE is going to handle this and how it may effect the community negatively if its handled badly.
Now I don't know exactly what they are going to allow with regards to UI add-ons so I wanted to discuss what limits they may put on them. Are they going to have a much stricter control than in other MMO's for example? Is this just a token guesture from SE so they can say "we will allow player made add-ons!"? How will SE manage the distribution of add-ons, will they control it directly by making us submit all add-ons to them for authentication first?
Another point of discussion is what will happen if the community decides as it does in certain other MMO's (and almost certainly will in FFXIV) that you can't join linkshells, free companies or even take part in raids and other content unless you have a specific add-on or set of add-ons? Will we see linkshells being PC only and Ps3 only at endgame? If that is what happens we may as well just have separate servers of Ps3 and PC?
SE isn't going to retain many Ps3 subs when its Ps3 playerbase is paying the same monthly fee to be a second class citizen, so will they charge less I wonder? Certainly if given the choice nobody in their right mind would play on Ps3 at all given the above scenario!



I seriously doubt they will require all add-ons be vetted, that's simply too time consuming for them. It's easier to just keep track of the community and break any add-ons they feel have an undesirable impact on gameplay. FFXI had a totally different community than many other MMOs, many LS operated without ventrilo, and didn't require their players to participate if they had it.

While I can certainly see some LS having strict add-on requirements, I doubt it will be the case across all linkshells. I certainly won't require people to have any specific add-on. The reality is, if the community finds an add-on to be necessary for gameplay, it will be broken or built into the default UI. I've actually made this statement so many times in this thread I'm beginning to wonder if you are actually reading anyone's posts but your own.
#26 Oct 23 2011 at 2:55 PM Rating: Good
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429 posts
Again going to break down some posts to talk about design.

NumptyHunter wrote:
Ok I'll try again as I obviously didn't spell it out well enough.
What I am actually trying to discuss is "how SE will manage player made UI add-ons and how will their existence effect the community", I am a PC gamer myself, I am not complaining I won't get to use add-ons, but I have concerns about how SE is going to handle this and how it may effect the community negatively if its handled badly.
Now I don't know exactly what they are going to allow with regards to UI add-ons so I wanted to discuss what limits they may put on them. Are they going to have a much stricter control than in other MMO's for example? Is this just a token guesture from SE so they can say "we will allow player made add-ons!"? How will SE manage the distribution of add-ons, will they control it directly by making us submit all add-ons to them for authentication first?


SE can directly control what addons do by giving or restricting the API (that doesn't yet exist, btw). They don't have to check out each individual addon before they release it to a list of approved addons. I'm willing to guarantee you that they can't even do this, because such an operation takes enormous amounts of money and effort.

Quote:
Another point of discussion is what will happen if the community decides as it does in certain other MMO's (and almost certainly will in FFXIV) that you can't join linkshells, free companies or even take part in raids and other content unless you have a specific add-on or set of add-ons? Will we see linkshells being PC only and Ps3 only at endgame? If that is what happens we may as well just have separate servers of Ps3 and PC?


It's up to SE to design the game in such a way that this does not happen. The easy but detrimental solution is to make fights easy or random enough that addons have no major impact on game play. The harder solution, which Yoshi has said they want to pursue, is to continuously monitor what addons are popular for PC and integrate them into the default game UI, such that the game's difficulty doesn't come from struggling with the UI.

Quote:
SE isn't going to retain many Ps3 subs when its Ps3 playerbase is paying the same monthly fee to be a second class citizen, so will they charge less I wonder? Certainly if given the choice nobody in their right mind would play on Ps3 at all given the above scenario!



I don't think this is going to happen. FFXI had plenty of PC addons (that were also against the TOS), but PS2 still remained very popular. A lot of people PREFER playing on a console, from their bed, and with the default UIs. As long as SE designs the default UI to be usable in all situations, then we won't have to worry about PS3 users not having addons.
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