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#52 Oct 19 2011 at 7:44 PM Rating: Good
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Viertel wrote:
digitalcraft wrote:
"Another thing we're going to be adding for version 1.20 is we're going to be updating and improving the market system. It's going to be in a format that's really close to what the auction house is in FFXI"


oooOoooOoooOoooOOoo

I might have to stick around. : \



Ugh, I hope not.

I despised FFXI's blind bidding system -- it wasn't an auction house by any stretch of the term. I go to an auction house to bid on things that are listed for a price I deem fit; I don't go to blindly guessing random amounts of money until I ultimately overpay (even if it's merely 100-200 gil for a 20K item) because of a moronic design.

All it did was waste time and caused thousands of idiots to cry about "undercutting" when they didn't even understand what the term actually means.


...It stopped undercutting, actually. Compared to a regular auction system, a blind auction system combats the constant tendency of sellers to list things for a few gil less than their peers.
#53 Oct 19 2011 at 8:43 PM Rating: Good
15 posts
Essentially.

The FFXI auction house was pretty good about price consistency. Because of the way it worked the bid you put in would purchase the lowest available priced item on the list. So if you bid 800 for a fire cluster and there are four up (500, 650, 700, 800, 1200) you will pay 800 and get a fire cluster from the person who was charging 500. This meant that, regardless of what the going rate for an item is, people should list it for what they are willing to part with the item for rather than 2 gil less than the current price rate if they want theirs to sell. Smart buyers would bid below the going rate so if you undercut too far you may end up losing out. At the same time, if it's an item that moves volumes in a single day (crystal stacks, ex) you would be fine posting them at the going rate or even slightly above it if you don't want a fast sale and just want the most for what you are selling.

Really it's a practice in economics that is missing from a lot of MMOs. Especially with only 7 slots to work with and limited inventory, you needed to prioritize what would sell fast vs what would net you the most profit.

I actually loved the way that FFXI's AH worked, but I can understand why some people would complain. They're probably the people that list their item for 1200 on a full price history of 1150-1200 item, then turn around and bid the going rate for something else.

There were more than a few times where I had every ____ on the server that was for sale below [price threshold] when I was crafting or buying things to resell in another city... which brings me to another thing.

I'm glad that FFXIV has separate market wards for each of the main cities. Too many MMOs have one server-wide market, and that takes away from some of the immersion of being able to say "well I want xxx product, which is harvested from xxx, so I should go to xxx city because there will be more there at lower prices". Not only did it make -looking for an item- a more involved experience than simply going to the AH NPC or to the proper vendor, but it also made it possible to be a BOOTLEGGER.

Because seriously... ***** farming for trash drops just because my pockets are empty. I'd rather buy 7 stacks of fire crystals from San d'oria for 700 per stack and then tele-Dem > chocobo/run to Bastok and resell them in 15 minutes for 2500 per stack. Then do it again.

I call it a "repeatable quest".
#54 Oct 19 2011 at 9:03 PM Rating: Excellent
The XI auction house wasn't too bad. EVE one is still the best I've ever seen though. :P Want To Buy contracts are really awesome. It means you can go to the AH, and just fill a WTB contract instead of pricing your item and hoping it sells. On things that are very common that means you can just go in and get money for it right away. On materials, it's more often a bidding war pushing prices as high as demand will afford instead of a selling war pushing the price downwards. People actually overcut each other for want to buy contracts to get materials from farmers.

More expensive things that people want to make good profit on are usually more often set for want to sell order to make more money. That part works like the WoW auction house for instance. You put your item up and maybe undercut the competition a little and hope it sells.

So, if you want your money fast, you fulfill a wtb contract and get your money right away and someone gets the thing at a little bit lower price and if you are willing to wait you get your money slower but usually a higher price. The price on items usually ends up balancing around a fairly sustainable supply vs demand point. It does fluctuate, but that's what makes a market system the most fun, being able to capitalize on fluctuations!
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#55 Oct 19 2011 at 9:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Yeah, I have a friend that still plays EVE and his day more or less consists of adjusting buy and sell prices on various products throughout the sector (or other sectors). Doesn't even leave the station most days, and just makes buy and sell orders.

But you can't really compare the two. EVE isn't an MMO, it's a galactic economy simulator. The charts that are in the game (not add-ons or anything like that) which you can use to track the prices and volume moved of an individual product are pretty much the same things you'd find on any stock-watch website.

There's only one MMO out there right now with a more evolved economy than EVE Online, and it's called E-Trade.
#56 Oct 19 2011 at 9:45 PM Rating: Good
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Tiem wrote:
Yeah, I have a friend that still plays EVE and his day more or less consists of adjusting buy and sell prices on various products throughout the sector (or other sectors). Doesn't even leave the station most days, and just makes buy and sell orders.

But you can't really compare the two. EVE isn't an MMO, it's a galactic economy simulator. The charts that are in the game (not add-ons or anything like that) which you can use to track the prices and volume moved of an individual product are pretty much the same things you'd find on any stock-watch website.

There's only one MMO out there right now with a more evolved economy than EVE Online, and it's called E-Trade.


FFXIV's economy shouldn't be quite as involved as EVE's, however, if they do want to support crafting and gathering as a valid play style, they certainly need to up the ante. Honestly, EVE style buy/sell contracts should have been what retainers were for in the first place. Beyond that, there should be an auction house with the standard limited # of items that can be set at one time, and a middleman system of NPCs that takes unwanted items that would otherwise sit around for eons or be vendored, at a slightly markup over vendor prices that slides based on demand. Those items are then sold via the markets or auction by NPCs, adjusting prices automatically to suit demand, or removing the items from the economy if needed.

Thus alleviating cramped inventory spaces, or items being inflated above their actual worth, while also providing a means to remove gil and oversupplied items from the economy.
#57 Oct 20 2011 at 1:40 AM Rating: Good
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that would be an awesome feature for xiv, a godsend for gatherers. I'd be alright if it didn't even come from a AH, but rather transactions of WTB happened directly at the guilds. Make them list a total they are willing to buy, but list it in single unit transactions so someone with little less than a stack can fill it, and then someone with just a few can come close it.
#58 Oct 20 2011 at 4:53 AM Rating: Good
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BEARFORCE wrote:
Thayos if i had a wish, that wish will be going back to the interview and ask yoshida one question: how come a multi billion $ company needs subs to fund ffxiv?


Let me bring some business experience in here. The issue is funding the overtime and kind of staffing required to pull off everything Yoshi P. wants to do within the next year. You can't just click your fingers and make it happen, it takes dozens of people to create it, debug it, try it, scrap it, rewrite it, debug it, try it, change a couple of things, debug it, try it, and then finally be pleased with your results enough to put it out there.

Square may be a large business, but bleeding more money without having some cash flow is a little ridiculous to ask of them. They have honored their commitment, allowing us to play the game for free until it's taken a more bearable form. The content they've provided, the battle system and crafting refinements, transportation, and other tasks they've completed have resulted in a much more playable and enjoyable game at this point.
#59 Oct 20 2011 at 4:55 AM Rating: Good
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RamseySylph wrote:
...It stopped undercutting, actually. Compared to a regular auction system, a blind auction system combats the constant tendency of sellers to list things for a few gil less than their peers.


Not quite. Myself and many more others still undercut as much as we deemed necessary in order to move product as quickly as necessary.
#60 Oct 20 2011 at 6:36 AM Rating: Excellent
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660 posts


Quote:

Thayos if i had a wish, that wish will be going back to the interview and ask yoshida one question: how come a multi billion $ company needs subs to fund ffxiv?


I love this... this comment is so short-sighted it actually made me laugh. It's like when my boss asks my team to test a new feature of our software and says "here go bang this up, it should only take 5 minutes... just 5 minutes" and I say "no, it will take several hours."

First I have to look over the requirements to make sure they're sound. Then I have to develop a test plan to make sure I hit all the bases of the new functionality. Then we need an environment to put it in to test. Only until that point can the actual functional testing begin. Assuming it passes it then goes over to UAT testing where the user will either sign off on it or turn it back.

Sure, sounds like you could just throw a couple guys in front of a computer and ask them to 'bang it up' but can that ensure quality? Now think about how you'd budget a development team and a QA team on a new game! How many people do you need? How many hours do you expect each team to put in, and how much will those hours cost the company for the duration of the project? What about time (money) spent creating art assets, gathering both technical and non-technical requirements? What's the financial risk to the company? How do you work all this within a finite budget passed down from the Business and Accounting Dept. ?

Nope, money just rains from the sky!
Sorry for the sarcasm but I did get a bit of a chuckle out of the comment, no harm intended.
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#61 Oct 20 2011 at 8:38 AM Rating: Default
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reptiletim wrote:


Quote:

Thayos if i had a wish, that wish will be going back to the interview and ask yoshida one question: how come a multi billion $ company needs subs to fund ffxiv?


I love this... this comment is so short-sighted it actually made me laugh. It's like when my boss asks my team to test a new feature of our software and says "here go bang this up, it should only take 5 minutes... just 5 minutes" and I say "no, it will take several hours."

First I have to look over the requirements to make sure they're sound. Then I have to develop a test plan to make sure I hit all the bases of the new functionality. Then we need an environment to put it in to test. Only until that point can the actual functional testing begin. Assuming it passes it then goes over to UAT testing where the user will either sign off on it or turn it back.

Sure, sounds like you could just throw a couple guys in front of a computer and ask them to 'bang it up' but can that ensure quality? Now think about how you'd budget a development team and a QA team on a new game! How many people do you need? How many hours do you expect each team to put in, and how much will those hours cost the company for the duration of the project? What about time (money) spent creating art assets, gathering both technical and non-technical requirements? What's the financial risk to the company? How do you work all this within a finite budget passed down from the Business and Accounting Dept. ?

Nope, money just rains from the sky!
Sorry for the sarcasm but I did get a bit of a chuckle out of the comment, no harm intended.


So basically: "Sorry we sold you a ****** up game last year, but see instead of fixing the game we sold you like we said we where going to do, we decided to make a new one, and as you know **** cost's money, so we gonna need you to pay the bill for that Too. Forget the fact that today the game we told you we where gonna fix is not up to standard, better yet, look at this concept arts, dont they look cool and pretty ? Bet you wanna play that a year+ from now dont You ? Well pony Up!"

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#62 Oct 20 2011 at 8:44 AM Rating: Excellent
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48,703 posts
You forgot the part where they let you play that broken game for like a year free of charge and have been eating the upkeep cost.
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#63 Oct 20 2011 at 9:37 AM Rating: Excellent
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What you hear:
Ostia wrote:
"Bet you wanna play that a year+ from now dont You ? Well pony Up!"


What Yoshida said:
Famitsu wrote:
"Yoshida: [With regard to fees] We are very pleased, on the other hand, “not yet” is an opinion many have voiced."


Doesn't exactly sound like, "start paying now, b*tch!" as much as it sounds like, "I can understand why people aren't paying, and that is fine because we will be improving things, thereby giving those players a reason to pay in the future."
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"... he called to himself a wizard, named Gallery, hoping by this means to escape the paying of the fifteen hundred crowns..." (Machen 15)

"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#64 Oct 20 2011 at 12:25 PM Rating: Decent
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3,962 posts
SFChakan wrote:
RamseySylph wrote:
...It stopped undercutting, actually. Compared to a regular auction system, a blind auction system combats the constant tendency of sellers to list things for a few gil less than their peers.


Not quite. Myself and many more others still undercut as much as we deemed necessary in order to move product as quickly as necessary.



I qualified my statement after I made it. Nothing can completely stop undercutting other than controlling the prices a player can sell an item for.

There's absolutely no way you can possibly argue that a blind auction system doesn't reduce the asinine practice of price-is-righting your item prices. Someone posted a breastplate for 210,000 gil? I'll post it for 209,000! Someone posted for 209,000?? I'll post it for 203,000!

On a blind system people would probably have bought all 3 for 210,000 gil, because that's what the last one sold for, and they're too lazy to try increments of a thousand to see if they can save. Not that you can't try it, but most people didn't bother. So unless there was a huge abundance of an item for sale, in all likelihood, the prices stayed relatively the same, even if someone did try to undercut, it may never have impacted the price. Get it?
#65 Oct 20 2011 at 5:09 PM Rating: Good
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There's only one thing dirtier than a $1 bid and it's the person who put that **** up for $1.


... but, yeah, I'd love to see the blind bidding system return.
#66 Oct 20 2011 at 5:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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KaneKitty wrote:
What you hear:
Ostia wrote:
"Bet you wanna play that a year+ from now dont You ? Well pony Up!"


What Yoshida said:
Famitsu wrote:
"Yoshida: [With regard to fees] We are very pleased, on the other hand, “not yet” is an opinion many have voiced."


Doesn't exactly sound like, "start paying now, b*tch!" as much as it sounds like, "I can understand why people aren't paying, and that is fine because we will be improving things, thereby giving those players a reason to pay in the future."


The frustrating part though is for players like me who really ENJOY the game, but also realize that it is still MASSIVELY a work in progress. I don't think it's fair that they are charging a full monthly fee for it. I think it should start out at 5-6 bucks a month, and as they release more stuff (job system, server improvements, etc) they just up the price. Right now it just doesn't make sense for me to pay 12 bucks a month to play a half finished game when I can pay that amount for a completely finished game like WoW, Rift, etc. Not to mention, with upcoming releases of games like Star Wars, Tera, and Guild Wars 2 it just doesn't make financial sense for me to stick with FFXIV until it is finished.
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#67 Oct 20 2011 at 5:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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Ostia wrote:
reptiletim wrote:


Quote:

Thayos if i had a wish, that wish will be going back to the interview and ask yoshida one question: how come a multi billion $ company needs subs to fund ffxiv?


I love this... this comment is so short-sighted it actually made me laugh. It's like when my boss asks my team to test a new feature of our software and says "here go bang this up, it should only take 5 minutes... just 5 minutes" and I say "no, it will take several hours."

First I have to look over the requirements to make sure they're sound. Then I have to develop a test plan to make sure I hit all the bases of the new functionality. Then we need an environment to put it in to test. Only until that point can the actual functional testing begin. Assuming it passes it then goes over to UAT testing where the user will either sign off on it or turn it back.

Sure, sounds like you could just throw a couple guys in front of a computer and ask them to 'bang it up' but can that ensure quality? Now think about how you'd budget a development team and a QA team on a new game! How many people do you need? How many hours do you expect each team to put in, and how much will those hours cost the company for the duration of the project? What about time (money) spent creating art assets, gathering both technical and non-technical requirements? What's the financial risk to the company? How do you work all this within a finite budget passed down from the Business and Accounting Dept. ?

Nope, money just rains from the sky!
Sorry for the sarcasm but I did get a bit of a chuckle out of the comment, no harm intended.


So basically: "Sorry we sold you a @#%^ed up game last year, but see instead of fixing the game we sold you like we said we where going to do, we decided to make a new one, and as you know sh*t cost's money, so we gonna need you to pay the bill for that Too. Forget the fact that today the game we told you we where gonna fix is not up to standard, better yet, look at this concept arts, dont they look cool and pretty ? Bet you wanna play that a year+ from now dont You ? Well pony Up!"



What happens if I decide not to pay or play until 2.0? They can't really force me to, I can always go play something else, so I don't understand your tone in this reply.
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#68 Oct 20 2011 at 6:03 PM Rating: Decent
Ostia wrote:
reptiletim wrote:


Quote:

Thayos if i had a wish, that wish will be going back to the interview and ask yoshida one question: how come a multi billion $ company needs subs to fund ffxiv?


I love this... this comment is so short-sighted it actually made me laugh. It's like when my boss asks my team to test a new feature of our software and says "here go bang this up, it should only take 5 minutes... just 5 minutes" and I say "no, it will take several hours."

First I have to look over the requirements to make sure they're sound. Then I have to develop a test plan to make sure I hit all the bases of the new functionality. Then we need an environment to put it in to test. Only until that point can the actual functional testing begin. Assuming it passes it then goes over to UAT testing where the user will either sign off on it or turn it back.

Sure, sounds like you could just throw a couple guys in front of a computer and ask them to 'bang it up' but can that ensure quality? Now think about how you'd budget a development team and a QA team on a new game! How many people do you need? How many hours do you expect each team to put in, and how much will those hours cost the company for the duration of the project? What about time (money) spent creating art assets, gathering both technical and non-technical requirements? What's the financial risk to the company? How do you work all this within a finite budget passed down from the Business and Accounting Dept. ?

Nope, money just rains from the sky!
Sorry for the sarcasm but I did get a bit of a chuckle out of the comment, no harm intended.


So basically: "Sorry we sold you a @#%^ed up game last year, but see instead of fixing the game we sold you like we said we where going to do, we decided to make a new one, and as you know sh*t cost's money, so we gonna need you to pay the bill for that Too. Forget the fact that today the game we told you we where gonna fix is not up to standard, better yet, look at this concept arts, dont they look cool and pretty ? Bet you wanna play that a year+ from now dont You ? Well pony Up!"



if you don't want to pay then by all means don't. They are going to add some upgrades including a basic auction house and make an experience in game for people who decide to pay to enjoy. If you don't want to take part, that is definitely up to you. I'm on the fence until I see the actual in game stuff myself so I definitely understand if you decide to not pay. However, I think the implication that we would be paying for their game revamp is totally wrong. The subs for people who play the revamp are intended to pay for the revamp. The subs for the people pre-revamp are intended to pay for the pre-apocalypse game they are working with.
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#69 Oct 20 2011 at 6:48 PM Rating: Good
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3,530 posts
BartelX wrote:
Right now it just doesn't make sense for me to pay 12 bucks a month to play a half finished game when I can pay that amount for a completely finished game like WoW, Rift, etc. Not to mention, with upcoming releases of games like Star Wars, Tera, and Guild Wars 2 it just doesn't make financial sense for me to stick with FFXIV until it is finished.


Well, FFXIV is actually ~$1-2 cheaper than, say, WoW or Rift; and as for Tera, they still haven't announced their monthly fee (it's ~$30 in yen), but between that and the potential cash shop, you'll probably be paying a lot.
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"... he called to himself a wizard, named Gallery, hoping by this means to escape the paying of the fifteen hundred crowns..." (Machen 15)

"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#70 Oct 20 2011 at 7:20 PM Rating: Good
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KaneKitty wrote:
BartelX wrote:
Right now it just doesn't make sense for me to pay 12 bucks a month to play a half finished game when I can pay that amount for a completely finished game like WoW, Rift, etc. Not to mention, with upcoming releases of games like Star Wars, Tera, and Guild Wars 2 it just doesn't make financial sense for me to stick with FFXIV until it is finished.


Well, FFXIV is actually ~$1-2 cheaper than, say, WoW or Rift; and as for Tera, they still haven't announced their monthly fee (it's ~$30 in yen), but between that and the potential cash shop, you'll probably be paying a lot.


Fair enough... but in the same regard, I'm getting a heck of a lot more bang for my buck in those games in terms of polish and content. Heck, the Star Wars beta is more polished than FFXIV right. Again, please don't take this as me bashing the game. I am enjoying it a lot and if it were to cost 5-6 bucks a month come December I would gladly dish it out. To me, it's just not worth a similar price (albeit a dollar or 2 less) to an established game or even some of the new games coming out. That's just my perspective however.

I'd love to see a poll comparing the number of people willing to pay 5-6 bucks vs. 12. I think SE would be amazed at the similar amount of money they'd make in the long run. I know of at least a half dozen people offhand that would gladly pay the 5-6 bucks but like me will not pay 12 at this time.
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#71 Oct 20 2011 at 10:18 PM Rating: Good
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4,144 posts
BartelX wrote:
I'd love to see a poll comparing the number of people willing to pay 5-6 bucks vs. 12.


I'm pretty sure everyone would want to pay half-price. I think you meant a poll to see how many people would stay if it were only 5 bucks vs how many people would not?
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HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#72 Oct 20 2011 at 10:37 PM Rating: Good
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BartelX wrote:
I'd love to see a poll comparing the number of people willing to pay 5-6 bucks vs. 12. I think SE would be amazed at the similar amount of money they'd make in the long run. I know of at least a half dozen people offhand that would gladly pay the 5-6 bucks but like me will not pay 12 at this time.


Well unless it's significantly more than double the people, it wouldn't be worth it for SE, haha.

Already, fairly large surveys show that FFXIV has ~50% of the population planning to pay now and ~30% planning to come back after, or a little before, v2.0. If those statistics are even remotely accurate, SE would lose a significant amount of money by charging ~$5-6 a month - more than they could gain, actually, even if it caused another 45% of the population to sign up immediately.

I guess you could argue that more people who are not currently watching the game might be drawn to its low price, but that's a fairly shaky position to take. Also, I would hate to see the internet sh*tstorm that would brew 11 months from now when "zomg SE is doubling the price of teh game!11"

No, it's better to leave the price as it is; FFXIV, like FFXI, is already cheaper than the average MMO, and I agree with their decision.
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"... he called to himself a wizard, named Gallery, hoping by this means to escape the paying of the fifteen hundred crowns..." (Machen 15)

"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#73 Oct 21 2011 at 12:53 AM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
Already, fairly large surveys show that FFXIV has ~50% of the population planning to pay now and ~30% planning to come back after, or a little before, v2.0. If those statistics are even remotely accurate, SE would lose a significant amount of money by charging ~$5-6 a month - more than they could gain, actually, even if it caused another 45% of the population to sign up immediately.


Another thing to keep in mind is the potential audience for this game was hardly even tapped at launch. The PC specs were so high that only a small percentage of PC gamers who wanted to play could actually afford to try it. Then there's the PS3 crowd, which won't even be in game for at least another year.

I guess what I'm saying is that over the course of the next year and at the launch of Version 2.0, there are enough potential customers out there who will be willing to give the game a shot.
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#74 Oct 21 2011 at 7:00 AM Rating: Decent
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BartelX wrote:

Fair enough... but in the same regard, I'm getting a heck of a lot more bang for my buck in those games in terms of polish and content.


I am so sick of hearing this argument from people who are choosing NOT to play those games. Play FFXIV or play Rift, whichever you believe is worth your time and money.

Speaking of time... I don't want to downplay money, but I am having a very difficult time buying the concept coming from a lot of current players that FFXIV is worth their 40+ hours of free time every week, but is somehow not worth their $13 a month.
#75 Oct 21 2011 at 9:13 AM Rating: Good
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1,636 posts
Vawn43 wrote:
BartelX wrote:

Fair enough... but in the same regard, I'm getting a heck of a lot more bang for my buck in those games in terms of polish and content.


I am so sick of hearing this argument from people who are choosing NOT to play those games. Play FFXIV or play Rift, whichever you believe is worth your time and money.

Speaking of time... I don't want to downplay money, but I am having a very difficult time buying the concept coming from a lot of current players that FFXIV is worth their 40+ hours of free time every week, but is somehow not worth their $13 a month.


Some people have an issue with paying for a product that even the producers admit isn't ready for store shelves
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#76 Oct 21 2011 at 9:49 AM Rating: Decent
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3,416 posts
KujaKoF wrote:
Vawn43 wrote:
BartelX wrote:

Fair enough... but in the same regard, I'm getting a heck of a lot more bang for my buck in those games in terms of polish and content.


I am so sick of hearing this argument from people who are choosing NOT to play those games. Play FFXIV or play Rift, whichever you believe is worth your time and money.

Speaking of time... I don't want to downplay money, but I am having a very difficult time buying the concept coming from a lot of current players that FFXIV is worth their 40+ hours of free time every week, but is somehow not worth their $13 a month.


Some people have an issue with paying for a product that even the producers admit isn't ready for store shelves


These people have figured out a brilliant solution too: they don't pay!

But then there's some people who can't accept said solution, and come to internet forums to complain instead. They might choose to not pay in the end, but they won't go down without making their opinion clear to everyone else- over and over again.
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SE:
Quote:
We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#77 Oct 21 2011 at 9:59 AM Rating: Decent
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KujaKoF wrote:

Some people have an issue with paying for a product that even the producers admit isn't ready for store shelves


It would have actually been much easier for this new team to shut the game down and put full attention simply rebuilding the game without trying to keep the current broken game running and fix it along the way. Yes, the original game was bad. Yoshi probably would have never made half the bad design and implementation errors the original team did.

But, they decided they had to keep the game running for the fans that already invested in the game. So they did and have improved the broken game to a playable state, while they continue to work on the new version. They did this and for over a year didn't ask for any subscriptions. That is a pretty big service the new team provided,. For those players who are still here playing a year later, I don't think it is too much to start asking for subscriptions of those still wanting to play the current game. The option to simply stop playing until 2.0 is released or later is still there as well. No one is being told they have to stay.
#78 Oct 21 2011 at 10:11 AM Rating: Good
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
BartelX wrote:
I'd love to see a poll comparing the number of people willing to pay 5-6 bucks vs. 12.


I'm pretty sure everyone would want to pay half-price. I think you meant a poll to see how many people would stay if it were only 5 bucks vs how many people would not?


I think it was abundantly clear what I was inferring there... at least I would hope so.

KaneKitty wrote:
Already, fairly large surveys show that FFXIV has ~50% of the population planning to pay now and ~30% planning to come back after, or a little before, v2.0. If those statistics are even remotely accurate, SE would lose a significant amount of money by charging ~$5-6 a month - more than they could gain, actually, even if it caused another 45% of the population to sign up immediately.


A poll here or on the FFXIV forums does not signify the actual number of people staying or going, as there are a TON of players who do not read forums. Not to mention, there's a poll on BG that states that 70% of players there are willing to pay 5-6 bucks whereas only 30ish% will be paying full price. If SE gets 10k subs for full amount, but would have gotten 25k subs at half price... well, you get the point. It's something they should at least be looking into. I know that of the 10 or so people I play with, 8 of them said they wouldn't be paying full price come December but ALL said they'd be willing to pay half price. Small sample size I know, but it's just a thought.

Vawn43 wrote:

I am so sick of hearing this argument from people who are choosing NOT to play those games. Play FFXIV or play Rift, whichever you believe is worth your time and money.

Speaking of time... I don't want to downplay money, but I am having a very difficult time buying the concept coming from a lot of current players that FFXIV is worth their 40+ hours of free time every week, but is somehow not worth their $13 a month.


And I'm so sick of people telling me what my time is worth. You try and say it's up to me, then the paragraph below that you don't believe it's not worth it for players who play a fair amount now... sounds a bit hypocritical to me. Yes, I'm enjoying my time now and a large reason for that is because the game is fun, but part of the reason is also because the game is FREE. I'm a full time grad student struggling to get by on a GA salary, so money is very important to me. If I'm given the choice of paying 14 bucks for a fleshed out game vs. 12 bucks for a game the designers themselves say is half finished, guess which one I'm going to pick. Regardless, even if I HAD money to burn, I'd probably still feel the same way I do because it just doesn't make a lot of sense to me specifically to pay full price for a game that's not fully complete.

Anyways... this argument is completely futile. We all know this. No one is convincing anyone of anything, so why don't we just drop it.

Edited, Oct 21st 2011 12:12pm by BartelX

Edited, Oct 21st 2011 12:13pm by BartelX
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#79 Oct 21 2011 at 12:05 PM Rating: Decent
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If you're choosing to get a vast majority of your entertainment from the game, it's probably worth the money to you.

You're stuck up on a principle, which is fine, don't pay. Really there are two choices here. Pay or don't. There's no third option.
#80 Oct 21 2011 at 12:26 PM Rating: Decent
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You forget "baww your head off on the forums regardless of whether or not you've decided to pay."

That seems to be the option some people are choosing.

Edited, Oct 21st 2011 2:27pm by Hyrist
#81 Oct 21 2011 at 12:32 PM Rating: Decent
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Hyrist wrote:
You forget "baww your head off on the forums regardless of whether or not you've decided to pay."

That seems to be the option some people are choosing.

Edited, Oct 21st 2011 2:27pm by Hyrist


Typical d-bag comment. If I don't agree with your train of thought, I must be a whiner. Grow the **** up and realize I like the game, but just am not willing to pay full price. It's a valid argument for a game that's not finished. Now why don't you go tell me to "QQ more" or some other such insipid comment so I can continue to laugh at your inability to even make a coherent argument.
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#82 Oct 21 2011 at 1:32 PM Rating: Good
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Bartel -

Your message, as Ramsey has pointed out, is convoluted at best. You say the game is fun, that you enjoy playing it, right? Regardless that it's free, you've said twice you enjoy it. I don't care what your current budget is, if you're having fun playing the game I'm sure $12 bucks a month is worth it.

Your principles are seem to be clouding your judgement.

Edited, Oct 21st 2011 3:32pm by KnocturnalOne
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#83 Oct 21 2011 at 2:14 PM Rating: Good
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You enjoy the game, spend a lot of time with it and also like the fact that it is free? You are mad that it won't be free anymore. Too. ****. Bad. The world doesn't work like that.

You are right, I can't tell you how much your time is worth. You may play 50 hours a week, 200 hours a month and somehow that 200 hours of entertainment may still not be worth $13 to you. I still doubt you'll be going anywhere, but that's your right. Expecting the company to continue losing money on you is expecting too much. Cough up the subscription fee or go do something else. It really doesn't get more simple than that.
#84 Oct 21 2011 at 2:16 PM Rating: Good
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Guilty conscience much?

You act as if I was referring to you in particular where I wasn't. That speaks more volumes about your inability to look at statement objectively than to approach a situation from a standpoint of extreme bias.

My statement was made in satire, because we have more of our fair share of arguing on these boards, and it deserves to be made light of.

I don't care who makes what choices as far as the issues here as that's their personal decision and they're entitled to it. But when taken to the extremes they have on this board, one has to question their true intentions on being here, if we're to regard the matter seriously. But I stand by the idea that it shouldn't at this point.

So I lay the question back on you: Do you think you're a whiner? You seem to have jumped at an unintended implication rather harshly. If you have a stance as far as what you like and don't like, and what budgets you can afford to pay or what 'standards' you might have, go ahead and live by them. But don't claim yourself as some sort of 'victim of the fanboi's' just because your views are unpopular among a part of the community. We have our own views and counterpoints to your reasoning that we would like to share in an effort to get you to view the game differently, and thus enjoy it more.

If you've made your decision and will not be dissuaded from it, then what's the point of continuing this discourse on your end? The only logical conclusion is self-gratification or self-validation that your opinion is 'right'. Those who have decided already to stay, on the other hand, have all the more reason to try to convince people to stay, as it's a matter of sharing our experiences with the community. An experience that will be one of a kind, given what they are saying about pre2.0 quest lines.

So why are you here, other than to 'cry more' as you try to tease me into saying?

Edited, Oct 21st 2011 4:18pm by Hyrist
#85 Oct 21 2011 at 2:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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Vawn43 wrote:
You enjoy the game, spend a lot of time with it and also like the fact that it is free? You are mad that it won't be free anymore. Too. ****. Bad. The world doesn't work like that.

You are right, I can't tell you how much your time is worth. You may play 50 hours a week, 200 hours a month and somehow that 200 hours of entertainment may still not be worth $13 to you. I still doubt you'll be going anywhere, but that's your right. Expecting the company to continue losing money on you is expecting too much. Cough up the subscription fee or go do something else. It really doesn't get more simple than that.


Plus, we realize that SE launched a bad game - they realize it - everyone realizes it. And where lesser MMORPGs would have failed, possibly shutting down forever or changing to a cesspool of microtransactions, SE gave us all more than a year of free play time. I know the game still isn't "finished" (MMOs never are, anyway), but it's pretty much at the point where a decent release should be, and so there's nothing wrong when them charging for it.

If the game were released and looked like v1.20, would you be here complaining that there was a monthly fee?
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#86 Oct 21 2011 at 2:39 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
f the game were released and looked like v1.20, would you be here complaining that there was a monthly fee?


Hard to say what we would be complaining about in full, given we've yet to experience 2.0

But the graphics engine, UI lag, repetitive maps, would still be heavy complaints.
#87 Oct 21 2011 at 4:06 PM Rating: Decent
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Hyrist wrote:
Quote:
f the game were released and looked like v1.20, would you be here complaining that there was a monthly fee?


Hard to say what we would be complaining about in full, given we've yet to experience 2.0

But the graphics engine, UI lag, repetitive maps, would still be heavy complaints.


Oh, I'm sure there would still be many complaints, and that they would still be rather justified, but I also know that much of the discussion about FFXIV now is exacerbated by the fact that most of us have been facing the same problems for around 13 months. So, overall, I think there would be less complaining, at least. Maybe it would be a, "You'd better fix these things soon if I'm paying these fees," instead of a "Rawwr! You'll never get my money to support your hellspawn! Harbgarble!"
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"... he called to himself a wizard, named Gallery, hoping by this means to escape the paying of the fifteen hundred crowns..." (Machen 15)

"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#88 Oct 21 2011 at 5:07 PM Rating: Decent
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Hyrist wrote:
Guilty conscience much?

You act as if I was referring to you in particular where I wasn't. That speaks more volumes about your inability to look at statement objectively than to approach a situation from a standpoint of extreme bias.


Oh please, you knew as well as I do who you were referring to. You can try and play the card of not aiming it at anyone specifically, but we both know that's a crock. I'm one of the most vocal people with my opinion, which is exactly why I express it, because I know I'm not the only one who feels how I do and it's a completely valid argument. The bottom line is that the game isn't finished. Regardless of the fact that I enjoy it, it's not worth 12 bucks a month to me. My suggestion was to start it off at a lower price and slowly raise it and I don't think that's being unreasonable. In fact, I really don't understand why some of you DO think it's unreasonable. Yes, they gave us over a year free... because the game was freaking terrible. It's not terrible now, but it's certainly not anywhere close to being finished.

Bottom line is it's not worth it to me right now, plain and simple. No reason for people to call me a whiner about it. It's an opinion. Deal with it.
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#89 Oct 21 2011 at 6:00 PM Rating: Good
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In the amount of time you spend complaining on these boards every month you could find $13 in loose change lying around on the street.

But, let me guess, its the principle right? Your moral obligation to play a game that is so horrible, that not only have you played it for the last year, but check up on forums about it at an hourly pace.

It is obvious you want to play FFXIV. You just want a free ride, which you will no longer be getting. You know and I know, you'll still be around playing and ******** long after SE starts charging for their game that you hate, yet can't stop playing.
#90 Oct 21 2011 at 7:37 PM Rating: Good
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"Square-Enix, I hate you... but I - I cannot leave you, nor can I look away."

I think that pretty much describes most of us, yeah...
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"... he called to himself a wizard, named Gallery, hoping by this means to escape the paying of the fifteen hundred crowns..." (Machen 15)

"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#91 Oct 22 2011 at 7:36 AM Rating: Good
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KaneKitty wrote:
"Square-Enix, I hate you... but I - I cannot leave you, nor can I look away."

I think that pretty much describes most of us, yeah...


Well, the game is really nice to look at!

I'm somewhat torn as to paying or not. I've been playing FFXI for a good number of months and along with the friends I rejoined with we've blown through much of the content already. FFXIV offers something more fresh and modern, yet it's nowhere near finished and it'll be a year before things really start becoming solid. Now I don't want to pay for both, so what direction do I go? Right now I handle both because FFXIV is free, so the decision is easy, but come time to pay something has to go.

I would wager to say that's a conflict many customers face right now, especially ones that have been playing something else in the meantime while they wait for FFXIV to find its direction and improve. It's a hard sell when you know FFXIV is a year away from 'complete'.
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#92 Oct 22 2011 at 7:41 AM Rating: Good
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How big is the discount for players playing both XI and XIV?
#93 Oct 22 2011 at 9:12 AM Rating: Good
Pikko wrote:
Chialing wrote:
bsphil wrote:

Oh and I already played Mountain Climbing Online once a week for months on end. The official name was A Sheep In Antlion's Clothing.


I thought of the exact same thing when I read the article.


Same here, only I couldn't remember the name of the quest. Smiley: laugh


I remember going up there with my party one time and there was a couple sitting by the crag cybering. I guess they thought it was one of the most logical places in the game they could be left alone by the general populace. We hung around and did a lot of /stare and similar commands, then went on our way. Memories.
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#94 Oct 22 2011 at 10:51 AM Rating: Good
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Chialing wrote:
I remember going up there with my party one time and there was a couple sitting by the crag cybering. I guess they thought it was one of the most logical places in the game they could be left alone by the general populace. We hung around and did a lot of /stare and similar commands, then went on our way. Memories.


Mog House may have been a good idea. lol.
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"... he called to himself a wizard, named Gallery, hoping by this means to escape the paying of the fifteen hundred crowns..." (Machen 15)

"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
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