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Crystal Tower ☆ FFXIV's First True RaidFollow

#1 Oct 18 2011 at 1:26 AM Rating: Decent
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Now that I've got your attention, no this post isn't highlighting any new information.

Now that most of you are gone...

Version 2.0 has been a controversial topic, some are excited beyond belief, some are worried, some are angry, you know, cue usual, canned forum reactions.

One thing that is worth being excited about for those of us who enjoy end game, or want to enjoy end game, is the prospect of mutli-party alliances and the presumably accompanying raid... The Crystal Tower...
Sorry I couldn't resist!

Anyway, what with SE getting all attached to its playerbase and occasionally listening to us lately, but really just because it's fun to talk about thing's we're looking forward to, I'm wondering what others are looking forward to out of what will potentially be our very first raid? (In the strict sense of taking more than a single party to complete.)

  • General raid features?
  • Specific enemies or bosses?
  • Things specific to Crystal Tower?
  • Other types of raids you want to see?
  • Loot you'd like to see?
  • Integration with other systems?
  • Fishing nodes?
  • ???



I have some things of my own, but I'll sit on them for a bit.
What are you all hoping to see?




Edited, Oct 18th 2011 12:29am by RamseySylph
#2 Oct 18 2011 at 3:31 AM Rating: Good
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Rainbows and Unicorns.

[sorry, couldn't resist it]
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#3 Oct 18 2011 at 5:08 AM Rating: Good
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SolomonGrundy wrote:
Rainbows and Unicorns.

[sorry, couldn't resist it]


With lasers and chainsaws. And Pantera.
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#4 Oct 18 2011 at 6:10 AM Rating: Good
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Glitter and ponies and myspace dot com!

Targeting that works as well as ffxi, and party seek/search that works. Thats all I need!
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#6 Oct 18 2011 at 6:32 AM Rating: Good
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More solo friendly content and jobs.

So, no, don't really care about raids. although campaign would be nice.



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#7 Oct 18 2011 at 6:34 AM Rating: Good
Sharks with frikken lasers on their heads. Is that too much to ask?
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#9 Oct 18 2011 at 7:35 AM Rating: Good
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I would like to have the Colliseum in Ul'dah used not only for PvP, but for PvE as well. I'd like to see a raid where you go up against mob after mob that get harder and harder and give better and better loot. This could include both fights against "people" as in lalafell, elezen etc, and monsters, such as mandragora, goblins, dragons. I always liked these types of events so it would be fun if they have something like it in XIV.

I would also like to see something like this for solo/duo, something that is meant to be solod/duod, but that is difficult to do so it really is a feat if you manage to go all the way. It could award you with special equipment, but also with spells/abilities which you can only get this way (Maybe that are primarily good for solo/duo so other people who don't like this sort of thing aren't forced to do it). The reason for this is that I think soloing difficult NMs was the most fun there was in XI, it really depended on your skill, noone elses, but your skill and it would be cool if this excisted in XIV as well, but maybe even with rewards directed towards being a skilled soloer (I think this would be cool as a way to get cool equipment/spells/abilities/titles without needing to raid every tuesday and friday). Basically, very difficult content directed towards soloing/duoing.

Overall in raids/dungeons I would like there to be special objectives that can be reached that will give the raid/party some bonuses. A couple of summers ago I played Dofus, which is a mmo game that uses gridsystem fighting, so it evolves around a lot of strategy. When you entered a fight you got to see a few special objectives that, if you completed them, would give you bonus exp/loot. It varied a lot what these objectives were, like take no dmg, kill the mobs in a certain order etc. etc.

For me this added a little extra something to fights because it gave the battles several dimensions which made it more fun to do even if it wasn't your first time fighting the mob. The first time you might focus on even managing to down the boss, when you got that down without much trouble you would start to try and finish some of the objectives etc. I think it is a good way of making fights last a bit longer when it comes to being fun and prolongs the time for a battle to go from new and exciting to boring and "on farmstatus". I guess in some ways their "hit the horns first" etc, is something like this, but I guess it depends on how they decide to take it further.

I think SE has something to do with Wakfu which is basically Dofus 2 so at least I know they have worked with the concept before and it would be cool to see it in XIV as well.

This doesn't really have that much to do with endgame I suppose, but I would like to see a minigame a la tetramaster in the game. I don't know what it would do aside from being fun in itself, but it could be cool to have some slight bonuses that are possible to get by being good and having good cards etc. So it would be something you could do if you think it is fun, and you would get a small bonus from it, but the bonus isn't big enough to force people to have it. I don't quite know what that could be since there are a lot of min-maxers out there, but I am sure SE could come up with something. Maybe you guys have an idea?

About that tower OP talks about I haven't really read much about that at all, but like someone else mentioned I also like the idea of fighting my way higher and higher in the tower. With XIVs visuals it would be cool if I could actually see how I progress too other than just looking at the floor number.
#11 Oct 18 2011 at 11:47 AM Rating: Default
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Bakkasan wrote:
Glitter and ponies and myspace dot com!

Targeting that works as well as ffxi, and party seek/search that works. Thats all I need!


I would hope by now that they can do better than FFXI, considering it's still horrible in comparison to every other MMO out there. I've played it since '04, but that doesn't take away the fact that it's still fubared.
#12 Oct 18 2011 at 11:57 AM Rating: Decent
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I don't care about endgame. I never played a mmo to the endgame, I simply don't have the patience for it. I'm more into casual exploring and partying.

What I hope for is battles based on party-play (not soloing), good story-telling, and nice environments to explore.

Edited, Oct 18th 2011 7:58pm by insanekangaroo
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#13 Oct 18 2011 at 12:44 PM Rating: Excellent
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insanekangaroo wrote:
I don't care about endgame. I never played a mmo to the endgame, I simply don't have the patience for it. I'm more into casual exploring and partying.

What I hope for is battles based on party-play (not soloing), good story-telling, and nice environments to explore.

Edited, Oct 18th 2011 7:58pm by insanekangaroo


I agree with this. I am a casual gamer and enjoy the story, partying, and environments to explore as well. However, I would not mind trying end game content as long as it is handled in a fun manner.
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#14 Oct 18 2011 at 12:57 PM Rating: Good
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Interesting how this thread about what people want out of end game got a majority of responses from people who aren't interested in end game, talking about things other than end game...


Anyways...

...


Specifically in regards to the Crystal Tower, I have a few hopes!

  • I'd like to see it divided into floors; a la Nyzul Isle, with players tackling 5-10 floors in one session.
  • Unlike Nyzul Isle, I'd like them to forgo a time limit, with an emphasis on exploration and optional objectives to complete. Specific timed objectives on an individual floor are fine.
  • I'd like a 10 floor session (however it would be divided up) to average an hour to an hour and a half, with 30-45 minutes being a very fast time for an experienced group rushing through, and two hours or so for an inexperienced group.
  • Ideally there would be a boss at the end of every session, so, something like 10 main bosses for players to tackle on their journey upward.
  • Each set of floors should become progressively more difficult, not just the bosses, but the floors themselves.
  • Ideally, an average group of players should be able to complete all the main bosses and scale to the top of the tower if they take time to obtain loot from each preceding section.
  • Upon reaching the top, and defeating the 100 floor boss, players should be provided with a key/keys to unlock optional boss fights that one could see but not access on earlier floors. (Hurrah Metroidvania!) These bosses should be the hardest challenge in the tower by far, adding a lot of replay value for hardcore players.
  • Every 10th floor should feature a large landing or atrium. Upon reaching the atrium, players can bind to an aetheryte, and inside the tower freely move between any previously accessed atrium.
  • An even larger main hall should be feature at the start of the tower, and perhaps the 50th floor or so. Upon reaching the 50th floor, players should be able to ride an airship, or perhaps eventually use a free company airship to fly directly to the tower. Now that they've traveled to and from the tower during their climb to the 50th floor, it will feel nice to have quicker access, and work well for end game focused players. These areas could work as staging areas for groups to gather, and possibly serve other functions as well.
  • Floors should be highly detailed, using randomization only on some floors. Varying objectives and types of floors to make things more interesting. Puzzles, timed floors, etc. Secondary objectives and secrets as incentives to thoroughly clear floors.
  • Crafting materials and currency drops from normal enemies, R/EX gear from bosses and rare spawns.
  • Rare enemies that occasionally appear, such as the Iron Giant! Rare enemies like this have been around a long time in Final Fantasy, like War Mech in FF1, and Iron Giant in FF2. These encounters should play like mini-boss encounters, with a chance to drop worthwhile gear or materials. Possible side objectives to enhance likeliness of their appearance.
  • Great music... This is a given, but Pandemonium and the Crystal Tower in FF2 and 3 both had excellent music, definitely needed here!
  • "Save Points" before boss encounters, that allow a raid to revive at the point if they all wipe, without weakened. There's no reason not to do this. Kicking players back to the start of the floor or weakening them is just a waste of time, especially if there's no time limit.
  • No storyline. I don't want a story for raids, I much preferred the FFXI method for setting up a raid, there was some backstory about the general location, but otherwise there was no dialog or narrative during the event. If the Crystal Tower is to have any narrative, beyond simply the setting, relegate it to small things on the side, or make separate instances of the floor used for main storyline missions that take place there. Don't make it a story we have to view over and over again each time we face a boss.


Edited, Oct 18th 2011 12:57pm by RamseySylph
#15 Oct 18 2011 at 4:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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RamseySylph wrote:
Interesting how this thread about what people want out of end game got a majority of responses from people who aren't interested in end game, talking about things other than end game...


Anyways...

...


Specifically in regards to the Crystal Tower, I have a few hopes!

  • I'd like to see it divided into floors; a la Nyzul Isle, with players tackling 5-10 floors in one session.
  • Unlike Nyzul Isle, I'd like them to forgo a time limit, with an emphasis on exploration and optional objectives to complete. Specific timed objectives on an individual floor are fine.
  • I'd like a 10 floor session (however it would be divided up) to average an hour to an hour and a half, with 30-45 minutes being a very fast time for an experienced group rushing through, and two hours or so for an inexperienced group.
  • Ideally there would be a boss at the end of every session, so, something like 10 main bosses for players to tackle on their journey upward.
  • Each set of floors should become progressively more difficult, not just the bosses, but the floors themselves.
  • Ideally, an average group of players should be able to complete all the main bosses and scale to the top of the tower if they take time to obtain loot from each preceding section.
  • Upon reaching the top, and defeating the 100 floor boss, players should be provided with a key/keys to unlock optional boss fights that one could see but not access on earlier floors. (Hurrah Metroidvania!) These bosses should be the hardest challenge in the tower by far, adding a lot of replay value for hardcore players.
  • Every 10th floor should feature a large landing or atrium. Upon reaching the atrium, players can bind to an aetheryte, and inside the tower freely move between any previously accessed atrium.
  • An even larger main hall should be feature at the start of the tower, and perhaps the 50th floor or so. Upon reaching the 50th floor, players should be able to ride an airship, or perhaps eventually use a free company airship to fly directly to the tower. Now that they've traveled to and from the tower during their climb to the 50th floor, it will feel nice to have quicker access, and work well for end game focused players. These areas could work as staging areas for groups to gather, and possibly serve other functions as well.
  • Floors should be highly detailed, using randomization only on some floors. Varying objectives and types of floors to make things more interesting. Puzzles, timed floors, etc. Secondary objectives and secrets as incentives to thoroughly clear floors.
  • Crafting materials and currency drops from normal enemies, R/EX gear from bosses and rare spawns.
  • Rare enemies that occasionally appear, such as the Iron Giant! Rare enemies like this have been around a long time in Final Fantasy, like War Mech in FF1, and Iron Giant in FF2. These encounters should play like mini-boss encounters, with a chance to drop worthwhile gear or materials. Possible side objectives to enhance likeliness of their appearance.
  • Great music... This is a given, but Pandemonium and the Crystal Tower in FF2 and 3 both had excellent music, definitely needed here!
  • "Save Points" before boss encounters, that allow a raid to revive at the point if they all wipe, without weakened. There's no reason not to do this. Kicking players back to the start of the floor or weakening them is just a waste of time, especially if there's no time limit.
  • No storyline. I don't want a story for raids, I much preferred the FFXI method for setting up a raid, there was some backstory about the general location, but otherwise there was no dialog or narrative during the event. If the Crystal Tower is to have any narrative, beyond simply the setting, relegate it to small things on the side, or make separate instances of the floor used for main storyline missions that take place there. Don't make it a story we have to view over and over again each time we face a boss.


Good. There. You have the plans, now implement it, SE.
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#16 Oct 18 2011 at 7:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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Salvage without the Salvage drop rates.
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#17 Oct 19 2011 at 1:58 AM Rating: Good
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Almalexia wrote:
Salvage without the Salvage drop rates.


I second that motion Your Honour.
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#18 Oct 19 2011 at 5:56 AM Rating: Good
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They could easily have quests in Crystal Tower for stories, and also just a regular raid mode. I imagine this be the best way to do it ^^;. I think, the problem is now, with no knowledge of what Crystal Tower is it is hard and maybe too wishful thinking to speculate. I felt Nyzl Tower's rooms were too repetitive, I hope whatever they do its interesting and has alot of variety.
#19 Oct 19 2011 at 11:19 AM Rating: Decent
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MrStyles wrote:
insanekangaroo wrote:
I don't care about endgame. I never played a mmo to the endgame, I simply don't have the patience for it. I'm more into casual exploring and partying.

What I hope for is battles based on party-play (not soloing), good story-telling, and nice environments to explore.

Edited, Oct 18th 2011 7:58pm by insanekangaroo


I agree with this. I am a casual gamer and enjoy the story, partying, and environments to explore as well. However, I would not mind trying end game content as long as it is handled in a fun manner.


same here. when doing endgame in ffxi i really REALLY hated sky and sea farming, and dynamis. the events i found the most fun were the things that got switched up a bit like limbus, nyzul, salvage. i'm hoping they add more things like these events that needed different strategies to complete while also not being overly repetitive by doing the same area grind over and over.
#20 Oct 19 2011 at 12:59 PM Rating: Decent
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zuogehaomeng wrote:
They could easily have quests in Crystal Tower for stories, and also just a regular raid mode. I imagine this be the best way to do it ^^;. I think, the problem is now, with no knowledge of what Crystal Tower is it is hard and maybe too wishful thinking to speculate. I felt Nyzl Tower's rooms were too repetitive, I hope whatever they do its interesting and has alot of variety.



That's why it's a wishlist thread/hopes thread not a speculation thread. No one has any information, but it's good to get people talking about what they want before SE hammers out the details, who knows maybe they're watching.

I agree that they could include narrative segments in any zone/dungeon used for raiding. My point is that raid and story should not go together. Repeatable content should have a backstory but little to no active story. I.E. a raid should not play out with narrative, like many MMOs do today, where the boss talks and a scene plays out every week like you haven't already killed him.

Instancing portions of the tower for use in the storyline is a perfectly acceptable route though, and I hope they do this, so that we can have some interesting settings and hopefully dungeons to complete in our storylines.

Regarding the Nyzul analogy, I agree that there needs to be more variety, and more unique rooms, etc. but having at least some randomization, as well as the 5-10 floor segments over 100 floors are both strong qualities that should I feel, be applied to the Crystal Tower.
#21 Oct 22 2011 at 2:16 AM Rating: Excellent
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The only thing I don't agree with on that list is removing the time limit. It's a fantastic way to provide challenge without punishing casuals. You try to do as much as you can, but good groups can do more.
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#22 Oct 22 2011 at 11:59 AM Rating: Excellent
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Hyanmen wrote:
The only thing I don't agree with on that list is removing the time limit. It's a fantastic way to provide challenge without punishing casuals. You try to do as much as you can, but good groups can do more.


Time pressure is a great way to amplify the challenge of content, but it also creates a certain pacing for that content. Do you really feel that every event needs to have time pressure? What I suggested was that some floors have time pressure, and some do not, each floor could provide a different challenge.

There are other ways to gate content based on the abilities of your raid group, such as I mentioned the idea of having a key item received from the final floor boss, that could be used to unlock optional bosses on lower floors.

While I do enjoy events with time pressure, I also like to have events where I can take my time, and not have to be constantly worrying about time. That's why I think switching between time pressure and no time pressure, would perhaps provide better pacing than just a flat time limit on every dungeon. That's not to say some events couldn't always have time pressure.
#23 Oct 22 2011 at 1:49 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm not sure. My idea of time pressure only comes into play when you start trying to improve beyond the normal pacing of said event. If we think in XI terms, you're not really pressured to clear 5 nyzul floors or beat a salvage boss- the time limit you have is plenty for accomplishing the task.

But if you want to do more, you obviously need to have a faster and better pacing. In that way, you determine how much pressure you're under at any given run. Though, it's also easy to change your goals if necessary. In this case, you could choose to clear some of the optional goals.

That"s not to say that this event needs this kind of mechanic. However, I don't think that the time limit you're describing and the one I'm describing are the same thing.

Without time limits, other ways to create challenge obviously exist. You can make a boss so hard that you need perfect execution to beat it. I'm not entirely against that, but the fact that its a one or the other scenario- either you win or lose- can be slightly off-putting. It's all or nothing. However, I think that as long as you have unlimited and immediate retries its not too bad. Whereas, if there are longer periods of time before you can try again it'd be nice if you always got something for your trouble, making events based on time limits an appealing option.



Edited, Oct 22nd 2011 7:53pm by Hyanmen

Edited, Oct 22nd 2011 7:54pm by Hyanmen
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#24 Oct 22 2011 at 5:01 PM Rating: Good
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Life has time pressure; how much did you lose by reading this? o_o
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"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

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#25 Oct 22 2011 at 7:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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Old school invisible enemy encounter system
Let's make this real final fantasy

YAY I MADE IT FIVE STEPS
..RANDOM BATTLE...

can only log out at camping spots
(well can log anywhere but you will be reset to your last camping spot)
only get out of dungeon by tracing steps or using a specific spell (escape/teleport)

A climb that takes days and days
So you log out and you either fight your way to a group heading towards you - or wait at camp when you log back in - or if you are strong - fight your way forward alone

- multiple parties
- shared instanced zone,
with all content (enemies) instanced
No penalties for grouping up
individual loot system with group pool enabled
(basically like voidwatch - with the ability to pool R/E items)
(can be open world instanced too like levequest mobs,
but they pop in wave like old school FF)




Edited, Oct 22nd 2011 6:42pm by Olorinus
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#26 Oct 22 2011 at 7:38 PM Rating: Excellent
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Works for me, Olo. Smiley: lol


Edited, Oct 22nd 2011 9:39pm by KaneKitty
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"... he called to himself a wizard, named Gallery, hoping by this means to escape the paying of the fifteen hundred crowns..." (Machen 15)

"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#27 Oct 22 2011 at 7:39 PM Rating: Good
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I would totally pay for that /stalks away to play FF2
(I am doing the Soul of Rebirth stuff - at part with crystal dungeon, so oddly appropriate. The thing is kicking my **** hard)

Edited, Oct 22nd 2011 6:57pm by Olorinus
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When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#28 Oct 22 2011 at 8:44 PM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:
I'm not sure. My idea of time pressure only comes into play when you start trying to improve beyond the normal pacing of said event. If we think in XI terms, you're not really pressured to clear 5 nyzul floors or beat a salvage boss- the time limit you have is plenty for accomplishing the task.

But if you want to do more, you obviously need to have a faster and better pacing. In that way, you determine how much pressure you're under at any given run. Though, it's also easy to change your goals if necessary. In this case, you could choose to clear some of the optional goals.

That"s not to say that this event needs this kind of mechanic. However, I don't think that the time limit you're describing and the one I'm describing are the same thing.

Without time limits, other ways to create challenge obviously exist. You can make a boss so hard that you need perfect execution to beat it. I'm not entirely against that, but the fact that its a one or the other scenario- either you win or lose- can be slightly off-putting. It's all or nothing. However, I think that as long as you have unlimited and immediate retries its not too bad. Whereas, if there are longer periods of time before you can try again it'd be nice if you always got something for your trouble, making events based on time limits an appealing option.



That's why I mentioned putting "Save points" before bosses. Which are basically aetheryte nodes that players can revive at after a wipe. I think having floors with timed objectives would be great then, and if you fail you need to retry the floor. I just tend to not be a fan of the whole "do it in time or you're done for the week" approach. Though this is okay for some events, I think something like the Crystal Tower, I want that classic FF feel of taking my time and scaling it and looking for hidden pathways and treasure. But again, some floors with time pressure works for me.

Olorinus wrote:
I would totally pay for that /stalks away to play FF2
(I am doing the Soul of Rebirth stuff - at part with crystal dungeon, so oddly appropriate. The thing is kicking my **** hard)

Edited, Oct 22nd 2011 6:57pm by Olorinus


Pandemonium actually came to my mind before the Crystal Tower did, seeing as it's also a giant crystal tower, and it definitely has the better background music + iron giant. Clear winner!



Edited, Oct 22nd 2011 7:45pm by RamseySylph
#29 Oct 27 2011 at 2:15 PM Rating: Good
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So in the interview someone posted today from JPGAMES.DE they talked a little about the crystal tower:

"JPGAMES.DE, Frederick: With the recent release of information on FINAL FANTASY XIV 2.0, we stumbled upon the term “Crystal Tower”. *Yoshida smirks* What can you tell us about this content and is it going to affect the storyline even after the release of 2.0?

Yoshida Naoki: I don’t want to spoil your fun, I’m not going to tell you if it is going to be related to the main quest or not, but you know… it is kind of the “Crystal Tower” you had in FINAL FANTASY III, and if you think about that and apply that to FINAL FANTASY XIV, you might get an imagination of what it is going to be like. *chuckles*

For example, when you think about what the “Crystal Tower” was like in FINAL FANTASY III, you were not able to save the content, there where thunders and dark clouds in there as well and also the four elements. That’s how the “Crystal Tower” was involved in FINAL FANTASY III and you can guess what it will be like in XIV. I really want you and the players to get excited about it. The “Crystal Tower” is just the beginning of what we have planned for FINAL FANTASY XIV. Because there is the long history of the FINAL FANTASY franchise, not only FINAL FANTASY III, we really want to include this history into XIV, so this is just the beginning of the excitement."


Now I am not completely sure what this means because frankly I don't remember FFIII all that much, but he talks about no possibility to save etc. and it makes me wonder what this could be. The little info we got seems fun, but I really want more info!

Edited, Oct 27th 2011 4:16pm by Belcrono
#30 Oct 27 2011 at 4:00 PM Rating: Good
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Maybe this will help?

Might not be the actual crystal tower - I never played III but anyway - looked like a crystal tower to meeeeeee

Edited, Oct 27th 2011 3:02pm by Olorinus
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#31 Oct 27 2011 at 9:07 PM Rating: Good
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That's unmistakably the Crystal Tower, I don't even look I just listen, love that song. Listen to the remastered version here.
#32 Oct 27 2011 at 10:41 PM Rating: Good
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RamseySylph wrote:
That's unmistakably the Crystal Tower, I don't even look I just listen, love that song. Listen to the remastered version here.


:D
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"... he called to himself a wizard, named Gallery, hoping by this means to escape the paying of the fifteen hundred crowns..." (Machen 15)

"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#33 Oct 31 2011 at 1:50 PM Rating: Good
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interesting thing is I got my copy of FF III in the mail right after these comments... so maybe I shall get myself to the crystal tower sometime soon ^^
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#34 Nov 01 2011 at 12:44 AM Rating: Default
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I hope people would hold off with naming these events until we know what the official terminology will be. Sure, it's easy to try to shove any mechanic and feature into a pre-determined industry standard, but it may not prove to be accurate in the long run to describe them that way.
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#35 Nov 01 2011 at 6:38 PM Rating: Decent
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Hyanmen wrote:
I hope people would hold off with naming these events until we know what the official terminology will be. Sure, it's easy to try to shove any mechanic and feature into a pre-determined industry standard, but it may not prove to be accurate in the long run to describe them that way.


What exactly are you talking about/whom are you responding to?

The thread is basically "What do you want out of the Crystal Tower?" What terminology are you talking about, I'm really a bit confused.
#36 Nov 02 2011 at 12:53 AM Rating: Default
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Calling it a Raid from the get-go. Actually, comparing it to Raid's from other games (I assume?) which could be deceiving.
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#37 Nov 02 2011 at 1:33 AM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:
Calling it a Raid from the get-go. Actually, comparing it to Raid's from other games (I assume?) which could be deceiving.


No, they were pretty specific that it would be an alliance-sized event. They mentioned two alliance-sized events (i.e. multiple parties) Crystal Tower, and some yet unnamed Labyrinth if memory serves.

Considering they call 8 man events "Raids" (which I might dispute, but who am I to judge) I'd definitely call any event that involves multiple parties of 8 a "Raid." I suppose there is a small possibility that it may take the form of something akin to Walk of Echoes(FFXI) which would fall in the small bounds of a multi-person non-raid PvE event, but it seems highly unlikely, and doesn't really fit the idea of a Crystal Tower, not what I think of when I think of FF3's Crystal Tower anyway, and Yoshida urged us to do so.
#38 Nov 02 2011 at 6:32 AM Rating: Default
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RamseySylph wrote:
No, they were pretty specific that it would be an alliance-sized event. They mentioned two alliance-sized events (i.e. multiple parties) Crystal Tower, and some yet unnamed Labyrinth if memory serves.


Oh, I recall hearing about Labyrinth and Crystal Tower but I can't remember whether they were specifically linked to being content designed for Alliances. That's too bad if so.

Quote:
Considering they call 8 man events "Raids" (which I might dispute, but who am I to judge) I'd definitely call any event that involves multiple parties of 8 a "Raid." I suppose there is a small possibility that it may take the form of something akin to Walk of Echoes(FFXI) which would fall in the small bounds of a multi-person non-raid PvE event, but it seems highly unlikely, and doesn't really fit the idea of a Crystal Tower, not what I think of when I think of FF3's Crystal Tower anyway, and Yoshida urged us to do so.


Well, in XI they are all 'events' and are also subcategorized. I find that to be more accurate, as at least I have a clear definition of a Raid while an event can be just about anything. Not to say that XI didn't have its own "Raids" but they were also harder to combine under a united banner (like Dynamis, Limbus and Salvage). But I think it will boil down to how the endgame scene will shape up in the future. Right now we have instanced raids and primal battles, and I think Crystal Tower will be different from these two.
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#39 Nov 02 2011 at 9:35 AM Rating: Decent
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Hyanmen wrote:
Right now we have instanced raids and primal battles, and I think Crystal Tower will be different from these two.


I'm just curious what makes you think that. We know it will be alliance content, and the Crystal Tower is the end game dungeon of FF3, it's practically screaming to be re-imagined in FFXIV as a multi-floor dungeon that players progress along together with their free company. With bosses and what not, and if you have a dungeon, with bosses, and it requires multiple parties, to me at least, that's the definition of a raid.
#40 Nov 02 2011 at 9:55 AM Rating: Decent
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Remastered Version of Crystal Tower... that was pretty awesome.


Edited, Nov 2nd 2011 11:56am by je355804
#41 Nov 02 2011 at 10:00 AM Rating: Default
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RamseySylph wrote:
Hyanmen wrote:
Right now we have instanced raids and primal battles, and I think Crystal Tower will be different from these two.


I'm just curious what makes you think that. We know it will be alliance content, and the Crystal Tower is the end game dungeon of FF3, it's practically screaming to be re-imagined in FFXIV as a multi-floor dungeon that players progress along together with their free company. With bosses and what not, and if you have a dungeon, with bosses, and it requires multiple parties, to me at least, that's the definition of a raid.


Well, maybe it doesn't have a time limit. Or perhaps it has a different kind of time limit. Maybe it is progressive. It is Alliance-based. All kind of things that can be found in that list of yours.

The difference between Primal battles and Crystal Tower should be obvious.

As I mentioned, both Salvage, Einherjar, Limbus and Dynamis can meet your criteria. Yet I think calling them all 'raids' especially when the endgame scene was quite a hodgepodge would have been inaccurate, in my opinion. All these raids differed in some way. As such they were simply events, and individual events were named accordingly.

Now if CT will be different from the game's current raids and primal fights, which could be very likely, I wouldn't call it a raid in that case. Especially if the future events that might resemble CT will provide different mechanics altogether, making them only similar in spirit.

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#42 Nov 02 2011 at 12:32 PM Rating: Good
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splitting hairs much?
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#43 Nov 02 2011 at 12:57 PM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen, a raid by common use definition is simply any sort of multi-party based content, usually end-game. And generally speaking is reserved for content where your multiple parties are assembled ahead of time, which exempts large scale public events from being considered raids.

Anyway, there's not really an academic definition, because it's a sliding scale imposed by the community or developers. In FFXIV they call Totorak a raid, that's 4 person content. By common definition, Totorak would just be an "instance" or "instanced dungeon."

Anyway, it would be nearly impossible for the Crystal Tower to fall outside the realm of "Raid" by the FFXIV dev team's definition, and as it's been clearly stated that it's alliance-based content, that places it squarely in the realm of raid from the way the term is commonly interpreted.

I feel like I'm not getting through though.

Einherjar, Salvage, Dynamis... All of these events were raids. I don't care that they had different pre-requisites, different group sizes, etc. They were all multiple party end game content. Sure you can further break them down, and I appreciate the intricacies of FFXI's end game systems, the way they provided content for varying sizes and that had varying types of objectives, such that they were in many ways dissimilar events.

But they were still all, very much raids.

Raid says nothing about whether or not there is a time limit, what kind of pre-requisites, what sort of objectives will be performed, how loot will be handled, etc. Raid again, simply means, multiple-party end game content.

The thread is discussing what sort of content people want to experience in the raid, so, to that end, no assumption was made.

Fact: It's a raid.
Question: What kind of raid do you want it to be?
#44 Nov 02 2011 at 1:25 PM Rating: Default
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I feel like I'm not getting through though.


Me too, but I think we're getting closer.

As I mentioned, there was a reason why FFXI's raids were not called raids. It would have been too general of a description while simultaneously it would have been hard to pinpoint exactly what events exactly go under the raid banner. In the end calling them raids would have served no purpose, other than to provide cross-game familiarity in a place where it is not even needed.

If FFXIV ends up working with the same rules as the common trends used in MMORPG's then it may be accurate. However, SE has already demonstrated that their terminology is not the terminology other games use, and I feel that artifically forcing it to apply to this game would be silly. This game is not these other games.
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#45 Nov 02 2011 at 2:25 PM Rating: Decent
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Hyanmen wrote:
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I feel like I'm not getting through though.


Me too, but I think we're getting closer.

As I mentioned, there was a reason why FFXI's raids were not called raids. It would have been too general of a description while simultaneously it would have been hard to pinpoint exactly what events exactly go under the raid banner. In the end calling them raids would have served no purpose, other than to provide cross-game familiarity in a place where it is not even needed.

If FFXIV ends up working with the same rules as the common trends used in MMORPG's then it may be accurate. However, SE has already demonstrated that their terminology is not the terminology other games use, and I feel that artifically forcing it to apply to this game would be silly. This game is not these other games.


Lack of developers using the word "raid" to describe their content in FFXI wasn't some stroke of brilliance, it was just the fact that the term hadn't been adopted in Japan. There aren't a lot of MMORPGs developed in Japan, so terminology like raid isn't cemented.

What you're basically saying is, they made a bunch of hats, of different types, but never called them a hat, because they didn't have a general term for "Anything worn on your head." But a hat is still a hat, it doesn't matter if it's a baseball cap, a beanie, a sombrero, they're all hats. Just because you don't know the word hat, doesn't make them not hats.

There's no logical reason not to call a hat, a hat. You can proceed to be more specific, but that doesn't make it any less a hat, a thing that's worn on your head.

Japan has long called game designers, "game planners." It's a weird difference in the terminology they chose to use, but they're still designers, through and through.

Let me explain something very clearly, you need to read and comprehend this next bit.



The term raid does not mean anything beyond being multi-party (generally private) end game content. It does not imply anything about pre-requisites, it does not imply a time limit or lack-thereof, it does not imply how rewards are distributed, what kinds of rewards there are. It doesn't matter if the Crystal Tower or any of FFXIV's end game multi-party content does not play out exactly like a raid in WoW, or a raid in Linage II, raids in those games don't play out exactly like they do in other games either. They are still raids.

You are literally trying to say that because we don't know what type of hat they're going to make, we can't yet call it a hat. We sure as **** can, because they said we're going to wear it on our heads. It doesn't matter if it's a chapeau or a sombrero, it's still a hat.




Edited, Nov 2nd 2011 1:28pm by RamseySylph
#46 Nov 02 2011 at 3:00 PM Rating: Decent
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RamseySylph wrote:
Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
I feel like I'm not getting through though.


Me too, but I think we're getting closer.

As I mentioned, there was a reason why FFXI's raids were not called raids. It would have been too general of a description while simultaneously it would have been hard to pinpoint exactly what events exactly go under the raid banner. In the end calling them raids would have served no purpose, other than to provide cross-game familiarity in a place where it is not even needed.

If FFXIV ends up working with the same rules as the common trends used in MMORPG's then it may be accurate. However, SE has already demonstrated that their terminology is not the terminology other games use, and I feel that artifically forcing it to apply to this game would be silly. This game is not these other games.


Lack of developers using the word "raid" to describe their content in FFXI wasn't some stroke of brilliance, it was just the fact that the term hadn't been adopted in Japan. There aren't a lot of MMORPGs developed in Japan, so terminology like raid isn't cemented.

What you're basically saying is, they made a bunch of hats, of different types, but never called them a hat, because they didn't have a general term for "Anything worn on your head." But a hat is still a hat, it doesn't matter if it's a baseball cap, a beanie, a sombrero, they're all hats. Just because you don't know the word hat, doesn't make them not hats.

There's no logical reason not to call a hat, a hat. You can proceed to be more specific, but that doesn't make it any less a hat, a thing that's worn on your head.

Japan has long called game designers, "game planners." It's a weird difference in the terminology they chose to use, but they're still designers, through and through.

Let me explain something very clearly, you need to read and comprehend this next bit.



The term raid does not mean anything beyond being multi-party (generally private) end game content. It does not imply anything about pre-requisites, it does not imply a time limit or lack-thereof, it does not imply how rewards are distributed, what kinds of rewards there are. It doesn't matter if the Crystal Tower or any of FFXIV's end game multi-party content does not play out exactly like a raid in WoW, or a raid in Linage II, raids in those games don't play out exactly like they do in other games either. They are still raids.

You are literally trying to say that because we don't know what type of hat they're going to make, we can't yet call it a hat. We sure as **** can, because they said we're going to wear it on our heads. It doesn't matter if it's a chapeau or a sombrero, it's still a hat.




Edited, Nov 2nd 2011 1:28pm by RamseySylph


What about tin-foil to protect our heads from alien transmissions? Is that a hat?

Anyways, you're post is completely correct.

There's lots of "arguing" the definitions of words going on today. We really need some new stuff to talk about lol.
#47 Nov 02 2011 at 3:11 PM Rating: Decent
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je355804 wrote:
RamseySylph wrote:
Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
snipped for space


snipped for space


snipped for space


What about tin-foil to protect our heads from alien transmissions? Is that a hat?

Anyways, you're post is completely correct.

There's lots of "arguing" the definitions of words going on today. We really need some new stuff to talk about lol.


Agreed - can't wait for tomorrow morning.
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#48 Nov 02 2011 at 7:08 PM Rating: Good
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RamseySylph wrote:
You are literally trying to say that because we don't know what type of hat they're going to make, we can't yet call it a hat. We sure as **** can, because they said we're going to wear it on our heads. It doesn't matter if it's a chapeau or a sombrero, it's still a hat.


Actually, if all we know is that it goes on our heads, then it should probably be called "headgear," just to be safe. I wouldn't call a headband, a hachimaki, or a mask a "hat." Smiley: mad
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#49 Nov 02 2011 at 8:19 PM Rating: Good
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KaneKitty wrote:
RamseySylph wrote:
You are literally trying to say that because we don't know what type of hat they're going to make, we can't yet call it a hat. We sure as **** can, because they said we're going to wear it on our heads. It doesn't matter if it's a chapeau or a sombrero, it's still a hat.


Actually, if all we know is that it goes on our heads, then it should probably be called "headgear," just to be safe. I wouldn't call a headband, a hachimaki, or a mask a "hat." Smiley: mad


I really hoped when I hit post that my decision to remove the part of the metaphor that excluded eye wear and other non-hat head wear would keep it from becoming overly convoluted, and no one would actually... oh ****, this is the internet. Right.

Smiley: disappointed
#50 Nov 02 2011 at 10:01 PM Rating: Good
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RamseySylph wrote:
and no one would actually... oh @#%^, this is the internet. Right.


Now you're getting it!* Smiley: nod

*Counts neither as agreement nor friendly banter.
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"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

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#51 Nov 02 2011 at 10:40 PM Rating: Default
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What you're basically saying is, they made a bunch of hats, of different types, but never called them a hat, because they didn't have a general term for "Anything worn on your head."


That's not what I'm saying at all. They used a different term because some of the "hats" they made couldn't be called "hats" at all, making broad generalizations like that inaccurate. Thus they called them "headpieces" because that would be more accurate.

Quote:
There's no logical reason not to call a hat, a hat. You can proceed to be more specific, but that doesn't make it any less a hat, a thing that's worn on your head.


There is, and I already explained it to you. Some hats, by the definition of a "hat", weren't hats at all. Even the hats themselves were so distinct from themselves that it would have made no point to call them such, even if technically they were hats. If you said "I went to a raid today", it serves no real purpose as the person you're talking to still doesn't know which raid you went to, even though he may have a general idea. Either way you may as well say "I went to an event today" and then specify which event. Then there wouldn't have to be a definition for non-raid activity as well, to unnecessarily split the two kind of activities. It doesn't make any sense in the context of XI, and this game isn't exactly clear on it either, what with "raid" in this game not being multi-party content at all.

Quote:
You are literally trying to say that because we don't know what type of hat they're going to make, we can't yet call it a hat. We sure as **** can, because they said we're going to wear it on our heads. It doesn't matter if it's a chapeau or a sombrero, it's still a hat.


I'm simply saying it is pointless and inaccurate, as per the bolded part in the last paragraph. It doesn't sound like it's going to fit the XIV's definition of "raid", so the **** does it matter what other games call it? We don't call jobs "specs" or materia system "gemming" either. It is only confusing at best.

Quote:
I really hoped when I hit post that my decision to remove the part of the metaphor that excluded eye wear and other non-hat head wear would keep it from becoming overly convoluted, and no one would actually...


Wow, you actually managed to hit the nail on the head here. Calling them raids will make the whole thing too convoluted. You can call them hats and then provide new definitions for non-hats just to be able to force this "standard definition" on the game, I'll just call them headpieces/headgear and be done with it.

Edited, Nov 3rd 2011 4:45am by Hyanmen
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