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Materia System: good or bad for the game in the long run?Follow

#1 Oct 26 2011 at 10:54 AM Rating: Good
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First off I'd just like to say that everything expressed in this post is my personal opinion, not fact, so any attempts at telling me I'm wrong will not earn anybody additional e-peen points, although any opinions are welcome =) Secondly, I apologize in advance for the long post.

For the past few weeks I've been busy immersing myself in all of the new content released with patch 1.19/1.19a and I feel like at this point I have a pretty clear picture of what the current state of the game is and to a small extent what direction the game seems to be heading towards. So it's not entirely subjective when I voice my opinions on what I think is working and what may ultimately hurt the game in the foreseeable future. Excluding some of the fundamental issues like UI lag, lack of party search, etc, I feel that the Materia system in its current state is one of the worst features of the game and may really hurt FFXIV's development as it approaches version 2.0. The reasons I feel this way are based on three major phenomenon I've seen emerge from this system:

1. Impact on Economy - Ever since the materia system has been introduced the economy has been completely erratic and unpredicatable. Yes, the materia system has given a boost to the market wards with the demand of "cheap" old gear. But the very nature of materia conversion has made people greedy and illogical. How many of us have seen Heaven's Fist materia being sold for 1mil + in the wards or in bazaars? How many of us have KNOWN players that have bought tier IV materia for 600k+?? Many of these tier IV materias were converted from dated gear that went for about 80k-100k on the markets and yet suddenly their materia counterpart (due to a lucky conversion) is worth 5 to 10 times the value? To me that's just insane.. and completely irrational.. but its happening now and on a frequent basis. Not to mention the gouging of dated armor prices. SE's intent for the materia system was to get people to convert their dated armor into materia so when they eventually phase those gears out, at least everyone will have gotten some use out of them. Unfortunately, rather than seeing a decrease in dated gear being made and sold in the markets, I am actually seeing a rise in those particular gears. When tier IV HP materia was confirmed from Dated Mythril Wristlets, the price of those bracelets shot up to 200k on my server before people caught on and flooded the market. Who's to say what the next flavor of the week is and what particular piece of equipment will be priced at ridiculously inflated prices?? A healthy economy is one where value and price coincide, but with this current system I don't see it stabilizing anytime soon.

2. Loss of Exclusivity for Crafters - This one ties in closely with the erratic markets. With the price of some dated gear going up with the demand for spiritbinding parties, it's very apparent that high level crafters are benefiting the most from the materia system. They can craft their own gear in bulk to spiritbind with while covering the cost of any materials (or even make a profit) by selling a few leftover pieces. For this reason everyone I know is trying to level up their craft jobs now. On one hand I think its great that crafters are much more relevent now and have a much bigger role to play in the game. But on the other, people who never had an urge to level crafting or didn't really enjoy it are forcing themselves to catch up. In the long run what we'll end up having is that everyone will have a crafting job leveled and there'll be less exclusivity when it comes to those high level crafters. Personally, i've always felt that crafters should be more exclusive since the boredom that goes into leveling a job solo to max deserves to be rewarded. In ffxi, and even prior to the recent patches in ffxiv, I knew a handful of high level crafters by name and if i ever needed a service from them i'd willingly pay a price and seek their help. Nowadays, as i look through my ls list i see 2-3 level 50 wvrs with 7 more leveling. And its true across the board for all crafts. While its understandable the longer the game is out the more variety we'll see.. but i feel like a lot of the people who are leveling their crafting jobs now are not doing it because they have nothing else better to do, but are rather forced into it by the materia system.

3. Trivializing Rare/EX drops - This to me is the biggest problem I have with the materia system. With the advent of the materia system, rare/ex gear has fallen off the radar for the most part. Any upcoming new rare/ex gear will likely be the hot topic for a couple months before it too will fall prey to the materia system and be forgotten. One of the biggest benefits of playing an immersive mmo is being able to tackle tough NMs and getting rewarded handsomely for the effort. With the current materia system, ordinary gear can be transformed into extraordinary items (achievable without even leaving town). A perfect example is last night when we took a few members on a Dzemeal Darkhold run for their first time. It took a couple hours to get everyone used to the fight and when we finally killed Batraal, everyone felt a great deal of satisfaction... until of course they saw the drops. Most already had melded gear comparable or better than what we got, and the only thrill came from seeing a blue item in their inventory. Down the road when they introduce Job Specific Gear, I want to wear those pieces to identify myself with my job but I fear that felt robe with 3 materias melded will top any possible stats a JSE can offer.

There are however some pros to the materia system, specifically that it does offer people something to do with their old gear and something for end game players to do while waiting for the next patch. I just feel in its current state it is bad for the future of the game and unless they abolish it or revamp it completely, we'll end up with a game completely dictated by a senseless materia system.


Please let me know what you guys think of the materia system and its impact on the gameplay.


Edited, Oct 26th 2011 12:55pm by lightacadi
#2 Oct 26 2011 at 11:17 AM Rating: Excellent
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The game, in reference to your topic, is in a transitional state. After reading your post, I get the feeling that there isn't really much wrong with what's going on other than the possibility of resentment... ?

1. Economic Impact: Is this really a bad thing? During the first year of the game, it was very easy to amass horde's of gil due to the lack of gil sinks and end game content to justify it. I only played for roughly 3 months out of the first year, and had I well over 2 million gil. So now people have something to spend it on. Also, while we know Materia will extend into 2.0, the gear people are using now are really just placeholders until SE starts to release more content and more gear. So while the gear is absolutely viable currently, it will likely be out of date and useless by the time 2.0 gets here. So sure, there's the trade of gil going back and forth...but you can't blame people for doing it, since it's the only thing to spend their gil on right now, and it's a viable way to accumulate it.

2. Crafter Exclusivity: IMHO, there is always going to be a percentage of the population that have no interest in crafting, and will seek out crafters for gear and for binding their Materia (along with any future crafting focused content SE creates). Sure, people are going to level crafting, but those who find it boring and evade it because of that fact are no different now than they were before 1.19. If the fear is that most people will have all crafts max level, then sure, there's going to be a few people that do that. Just like there was in FFXI, and that describes the type of people you stated you knew by name. We had one person like that on Asura, where he had all crafts leveled with mules and you could requisition him to craft high-end items. No one is forced to craft, though...that sounds like a fairly narrow opinion. If you want Materia bound to your gear and you can't do it yourself, find someone with the adequate craft & level to do so for you. That's the point of MMO's...players shouldn't be solely self-sufficient in that sense.

3. Rare/Ex Items: The stuff in the game today, is again, part of a transitional game design. And in the future...we have no idea what JSE is even going to be like. It may have more materia spots. We don't know what the stats are. Heck, we don't even know what they'll look like. So there's no reason to worry about something when there's absolutely no information (positive or negative) to support anything.

I think the Materia system is fine. I think it's a logical system that works along with almost every other games augment-like system for making gear individually unique. And it's nice that SE utilized the Materia concept because it's FF specific, and because it fits the idea behind it very well. I don't think this is going to have any other huge impact on the game because regardless, we have a year+ of time to play, and it's likely that the people interested in crafting are going to max their trades, and those not are going to focus on maxing War/Magic Disciplines and push through content as quickly as it's released.
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#3 Oct 26 2011 at 11:36 AM Rating: Excellent
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The materia system offers the exact kind of economy stimulus this game needed. Gear is leaving the economy now, so is Materia, catalysts, everything aside from r/EX gear.

The fact that they essentially reset the whole economy will keep it unpredictable for some time. Money that has not had much of a use so far is suddenly valuable and everyone who have hoarded liquid gil in the past months is suddenly putting them to actual use.

Materia system is the perfect tool to avoid having a stagnant economy. The effect needs to be further boosted from time to time by implementing new craftable items and ingredients, but the system as it is right now keeps the economy running. Everything is a consumable.

Being a crafter or a gatherer right now is very profitable, but that's not going to be the case for too long. Fighter classes shouldn't be forced to level a craft to be able to get involved in the system. Once the prices go down (and they will, stabilizing around the real value of the item, not the inflated price caused by so much liquid gil being in the circulation) fighters aren't really pressured to play a DoH anymore.

The situation with r/EX gear is unbalanced right now, but make no mistake, r/EX will not be the end-all equipment in this game. It should be brought up to rival and sometimes excel crafted gear with 2(or so) materia socketed to it, making it really strong, but after that you need a whole lot more dedication to get more out of your equipment.

Rivaling and sometimes exceeding 2 materia crafted gear sounds like a perfect balance of effort vs. reward with the way the encounters should end up being like. What is great, imo, is that gear with exclusive looks or effects will not be something only 0.0001% of players can achieve (relics...) but those kind of items are available to a larger audience while obtaining better stats on "ordinary" equipment will be the difference between a casual and a hardcore player.
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#4 Oct 26 2011 at 11:49 AM Rating: Excellent
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Dear OP,

Point 3 is the only valid concern, but Our Mutual Friend Yoshi-P promised to find an agreeable remedy.

Regarding point 1,

New content in MMOs has, is and always will be manipulated by players' greediness and irrationality. This is not the fault of materia. If you remember FFXI: every time there was a new gobbiebag quest--every time, without exception--the items required for the quest elevated to the most absurd prices. Even though experience dictated we need only wait a week or two for the prices to lower, if we chose not to simply farm or craft the items ourselves in the meantime, people would still lay down the 1.5M for an extra five inventory slots on the spot.

However, there are two factors which exacerbate materia's econo-madness in particular: nobody @#%^ing knows the weight of primary attributes and derived attributes, nor the precise risk involved in melding multiple materia.

What is the relationship of STR to ATK? DEX to ACC? How valuable is elemental and negative stat resistance? How is evasion calculated post-1.19, and how much more valuable is +EVA as a result? I could go on. 1.19 ushered in some big changes that no one has thoroughly tested. At this point, I think almost everyone (myself included) is using FFXI mechanics as a guideline for gearing up. That is part of the reason why Heaven Fist materia is 5M and Dexterity materia is 100k. (Edit: That is not to imply I secretly know the value of DEX in FFXIV; it is based solely on how we value attributes in FFXI as applied to FFXIV.)

The other thing is most players aren't thinking long-term with materia yet. Heaven Fist IV with +28 ATK looks great, so it sells for 5M! But you could buy two Heaven Fist II with +14 for 100k a pop with a 40%+ chance of melding. Even if you somehow failed to meld fifteen times you would still be under 5M for the sixteenth attempt, and that includes dirt-cheap catalysts and whatever Lv.40+ gloves you're trying to augment. The future holds that II and III tier materia will be overall more valuable to adventurous melders than IV, and I (pronoun, not numeral) expect the market will one day reflect that.

I don't understand the argument in point 2, if there is one.

Edited, Oct 26th 2011 1:52pm by Almalexia
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#5 Oct 26 2011 at 4:09 PM Rating: Good
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Only point 3 has merit, the rest are nonsense.

1) The reason G4 materia sells for millions is because it's rare. Supply and demand are what dictate the price, not insanity. If you think the price is too high, don't buy and eventually it will come down to meet whatever the fair market value is. Most of the time when you convert gear it gives you completely worthless materia, so the useful ones have to be expensive to make up for the losses from converting into crap. It's very possible that the equilibrium price for top tier materia is in the millions and yes, it's going to be extremely expensive to meld multiple materia into high grade equipment. This is an issue I've brought up before and I think it's bad because it ties in with your point #3 about gear gained from skill demanding content becoming obsolete.

2) You think boredom should be rewarded? I think boredom should be eliminated. I'm astounded that you find boredom to be a viable method of creating exclusivity in a game.
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#6 Oct 26 2011 at 4:27 PM Rating: Decent
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1) just wait... let the rich craft, soul bind, and make materia. If you can hold our for a little bit more supply will flood the market and price will drop. I can tell you right now that until grade 4 drops to ~100k some people will meld what they have till luck gives em better. Considering you can by 49 rings for 14k and sell materia for profit your self... One can still turn a profit even if you dont craft.

2) don't care

3) i agree, crafted armor + materia should not make NM/Dungeon drops useless.
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#7 Oct 26 2011 at 4:31 PM Rating: Decent
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It's good for the game.

All of your concerns fall under the "needs proper balance" category, as with most systems in any given MMO.
#8 Oct 27 2011 at 4:23 AM Rating: Decent
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I think all three points you made have been addressed by other posters. Materia needs to stay IMO. Despite the drawbacks of the system when reflecting upon the economical impacts, its benefits far outweigh them.

You also have to consider we are still in the first month, and lots of players are still testing the system boundaries, best items for materia fodder and what min/maxing is possible. Eventually, likely by 1.20, things will have settled down and be more reasonable across the board.

I, for one, am grateful to finally have a purpose to crafting besides only crafting gear for myself (and random LS member), and being able to repair. Crafting items for materia fodder is working as intended, stated clearly by Yoshi several times. It's the player's faults for charging 200k for a mythril wristlet, not SE's.

The only real complaint that I have about the system is that the melding requirements on Tier IV materia are slightly too strict. I'm not saying you should be able to slap on three or more materia, but I spent tons of time getting a craft to 50, I should be seeing more rewards for it aside from having like a 12% chance (guaranteed failure on every time i've tried) when attaching a second materia.
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#9 Oct 27 2011 at 5:02 AM Rating: Good
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Dallie wrote:
[...] The only real complaint that I have about the system is that the melding requirements on Tier IV materia are slightly too strict. I'm not saying you should be able to slap on three or more materia, but I spent tons of time getting a craft to 50, I should be seeing more rewards for it aside from having like a 12% chance (guaranteed failure on every time i've tried) when attaching a second materia.


I think in time, you'll see some more benefit from having put the effort into crafting. Remember, the original development team viewed crafting classes as classes, not as economic mainstays like seen in other games. They dangled thoughts of actually participating in battle content, and crafting "group" content (remember the picture of the crafters making a boat together?)...so now that Yoshi and the current dev team are looking at them for what they are (and should be), I think the future will yield better rewards for those who put the effort into the crafting system.

It's just barren now because unfortunately, the system wasn't set up to benefit crafters this way. We'll never know what they had in mind during the original development, but I think that's probably a good thing at this point. :P
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#10 Oct 27 2011 at 5:11 AM Rating: Decent
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Ryneguy wrote:
Remember, the original development team viewed crafting classes as classes, not as economic mainstays like seen in other games. They dangled thoughts of actually participating in battle content, and crafting "group" content (remember the picture of the crafters making a boat together?)


I wouldn't be surprised if you missed this, but... they did state that crafting group content is still being prepared for 2.0. So is exclusive endgame DoH and DoL content.

There is nothing wrong by treating crafting and gathering as real classes, but you gotta be able to pull it off too, by treating them like that is the case. Crafters need content, they need a varied number of stuff to do, just having one minigame you spam for 50 levels isn't enough. The only way to make crafting and gathering viewed as real classes is to treat them as such.

Even though most people seem to have taken the stance of "just dumb them down to the level of other games", personally I am glad that the dev team has grander plans than this, because the opposite of dumbing down is to treat them equally with fighting classes.

Don't understand me wrong, "treating equally" doesn't mean they get to always participate in the same content with battle classes, as was the case before. That's just taking the lazy way out.

But then again I agree, that if they were going to treat them as necessary evils not worth catering towards, it'd be better to just make them simple and meaningless.
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#11 Oct 27 2011 at 6:44 AM Rating: Excellent
In regards to #3, I think they should make the rare/ex meldable. Problem solved.
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#12 Oct 27 2011 at 6:51 AM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised if you missed this, but... they did state that crafting group content is still being prepared for 2.0. So is exclusive endgame DoH and DoL content.

There is nothing wrong by treating crafting and gathering as real classes, but you gotta be able to pull it off too, by treating them like that is the case. Crafters need content, they need a varied number of stuff to do, just having one minigame you spam for 50 levels isn't enough. The only way to make crafting and gathering viewed as real classes is to treat them as such.

Even though most people seem to have taken the stance of "just dumb them down to the level of other games", personally I am glad that the dev team has grander plans than this, because the opposite of dumbing down is to treat them equally with fighting classes.

Don't understand me wrong, "treating equally" doesn't mean they get to always participate in the same content with battle classes, as was the case before. That's just taking the lazy way out.

But then again I agree, that if they were going to treat them as necessary evils not worth catering towards, it'd be better to just make them simple and meaningless.


Nope, I didn't miss it. But let's be honest, they aren't the same as War/Magic disciplines, and they never will be. There are no "advance" classes (or jobs) for them. They don't use the same content. I agree, but the idea was for there to be craft-specific content...of which there is none, and there hasn't been any introduction of any yet.

It will be nice to see what they make of the base system that we have, and it's fantastic to see crafters actually finally yielding some positive outcomes to their effort. I know a lot of people (myself included) started out with FFXIV thinking only of the deep, meaningful craft system that would be "equal" to battle disciplines, but they just weren't and still aren't.

So I'm interested in what their interpretation of "end-game" content is for DoH/DoL classes, but I hope they remain realistic as to what these really are, too. So I hope they don't just say "We're going to give you quests to turn in gear to further the cause of -XXX- end-game raid" or "Turn in 100 of XXX ore to help with the fight!" and wash their hands of it. If crafting is simply that, then I hope their effort is put into bolstering that system from logical standpoint, rather than try to make good on a system that was never really followed through with from the start.

Edited, Oct 27th 2011 8:52am by Ryneguy
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#13 Oct 27 2011 at 9:46 AM Rating: Decent
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Duke Lubriderm wrote:
In regards to #3, I think they should make the rare/ex meldable. Problem solved.

Not quite. Double materia gear would still beat it and you wouldn't want to try slotting two into rare/ex.
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#14 Oct 27 2011 at 11:06 AM Rating: Decent
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I thought Yoshi said that their goal was that Untradable gear was meant to be up to 3-4 attached materia. If you attach 4-5 materia the idea was that the gear would then be something more rare then NM drop gear to begin with, and offers incentive to sell/buy gear better then NM gear. But single and double materia equips would typically be below stats of Untradable gear, with the exception that you can build gear that they (the developers) may not have thought of.
#15 Oct 27 2011 at 11:14 AM Rating: Decent
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rfolkker wrote:
I thought Yoshi said that their goal was that Untradable gear was meant to be up to 3-4 attached materia. If you attach 4-5 materia the idea was that the gear would then be something more rare then NM drop gear to begin with, and offers incentive to sell/buy gear better then NM gear. But single and double materia equips would typically be below stats of Untradable gear, with the exception that you can build gear that they (the developers) may not have thought of.

Well, as of now it's very difficult to attach more than 2 high grade materia into one piece, but I do believe they said single materia gear would be inferior to NM drops.

Still, I don't think rarity should come from manufacturing cost but from difficulty of content. An item with multiple materia may be very expensive to make due to the extreme material loss from failed melds, but the only challenge is a monetary one and the player's abilities are at no point tested.
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#16 Oct 27 2011 at 11:47 AM Rating: Decent
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Ryneguy wrote:
Dallie wrote:
[...] The only real complaint that I have about the system is that the melding requirements on Tier IV materia are slightly too strict. I'm not saying you should be able to slap on three or more materia, but I spent tons of time getting a craft to 50, I should be seeing more rewards for it aside from having like a 12% chance (guaranteed failure on every time i've tried) when attaching a second materia.


I think in time, you'll see some more benefit from having put the effort into crafting. Remember, the original development team viewed crafting classes as classes, not as economic mainstays like seen in other games. They dangled thoughts of actually participating in battle content, and crafting "group" content (remember the picture of the crafters making a boat together?)...so now that Yoshi and the current dev team are looking at them for what they are (and should be), I think the future will yield better rewards for those who put the effort into the crafting system.

It's just barren now because unfortunately, the system wasn't set up to benefit crafters this way. We'll never know what they had in mind during the original development, but I think that's probably a good thing at this point. :P


Hyanmen already mentioned this, but they're not scrapping the idea of DoH and DoL being "classes," at least not yet.

"Compelling gameplay" and "economic mainstay(engine)" are not mutually exclusive. Giving crafters things to do, and fun content to participate in doesn't mean they can't properly balance their ability to impact and support the economy. If anything, they need to be thinking about how the two can go hand in hand.

It'll be interesting to see how things turn out. Though I do agree that we need to wait and see regarding forbidden materia craft and other advantages for crafting. It wouldn't surprise me if they eventually allow our stats to at least have a minor impact on the success of forbidden materia crafting. It's only fair, really.
#17 Oct 27 2011 at 11:59 AM Rating: Good
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Omena wrote:
rfolkker wrote:
I thought Yoshi said that their goal was that Untradable gear was meant to be up to 3-4 attached materia. If you attach 4-5 materia the idea was that the gear would then be something more rare then NM drop gear to begin with, and offers incentive to sell/buy gear better then NM gear. But single and double materia equips would typically be below stats of Untradable gear, with the exception that you can build gear that they (the developers) may not have thought of.

Well, as of now it's very difficult to attach more than 2 high grade materia into one piece, but I do believe they said single materia gear would be inferior to NM drops.

Still, I don't think rarity should come from manufacturing cost but from difficulty of content. An item with multiple materia may be very expensive to make due to the extreme material loss from failed melds, but the only challenge is a monetary one and the player's abilities are at no point tested.

Well, while I don't disagree strictly speaking, I would like to point out that this is extremely dependent on the game you are playing. Monetary achievement is a measure of the players abilities if the game is designed in such a way that it takes skill to make money. FFXIV could be that way, it has the potential to lean in that direction. Granted, that is going to alienate quite a bit of their playerbase, so I very much doubt it will. On the other hand, games like Eve - while outliers - prove that a game based almost entirely on the economic system are viable.

Rarity is still rarity regardless of the cause.
#18 Oct 27 2011 at 12:02 PM Rating: Good
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lightacadi wrote:
First off I'd just like to say that everything expressed in this post is my personal opinion, not fact, so any attempts at telling me I'm wrong will not earn anybody additional e-peen points, although any opinions are welcome =) Secondly, I apologize in advance for the long post.

For the past few weeks I've been busy immersing myself in all of the new content released with patch 1.19/1.19a and I feel like at this point I have a pretty clear picture of what the current state of the game is and to a small extent what direction the game seems to be heading towards. So it's not entirely subjective when I voice my opinions on what I think is working and what may ultimately hurt the game in the foreseeable future. Excluding some of the fundamental issues like UI lag, lack of party search, etc, I feel that the Materia system in its current state is one of the worst features of the game and may really hurt FFXIV's development as it approaches version 2.0. The reasons I feel this way are based on three major phenomenon I've seen emerge from this system:

1. Impact on Economy - Ever since the materia system has been introduced the economy has been completely erratic and unpredicatable. Yes, the materia system has given a boost to the market wards with the demand of "cheap" old gear. But the very nature of materia conversion has made people greedy and illogical. How many of us have seen Heaven's Fist materia being sold for 1mil + in the wards or in bazaars? How many of us have KNOWN players that have bought tier IV materia for 600k+?? Many of these tier IV materias were converted from dated gear that went for about 80k-100k on the markets and yet suddenly their materia counterpart (due to a lucky conversion) is worth 5 to 10 times the value? To me that's just insane.. and completely irrational.. but its happening now and on a frequent basis. Not to mention the gouging of dated armor prices. SE's intent for the materia system was to get people to convert their dated armor into materia so when they eventually phase those gears out, at least everyone will have gotten some use out of them. Unfortunately, rather than seeing a decrease in dated gear being made and sold in the markets, I am actually seeing a rise in those particular gears. When tier IV HP materia was confirmed from Dated Mythril Wristlets, the price of those bracelets shot up to 200k on my server before people caught on and flooded the market. Who's to say what the next flavor of the week is and what particular piece of equipment will be priced at ridiculously inflated prices?? A healthy economy is one where value and price coincide, but with this current system I don't see it stabilizing anytime soon.

2. Loss of Exclusivity for Crafters - This one ties in closely with the erratic markets. With the price of some dated gear going up with the demand for spiritbinding parties, it's very apparent that high level crafters are benefiting the most from the materia system. They can craft their own gear in bulk to spiritbind with while covering the cost of any materials (or even make a profit) by selling a few leftover pieces. For this reason everyone I know is trying to level up their craft jobs now. On one hand I think its great that crafters are much more relevent now and have a much bigger role to play in the game. But on the other, people who never had an urge to level crafting or didn't really enjoy it are forcing themselves to catch up. In the long run what we'll end up having is that everyone will have a crafting job leveled and there'll be less exclusivity when it comes to those high level crafters. Personally, i've always felt that crafters should be more exclusive since the boredom that goes into leveling a job solo to max deserves to be rewarded. In ffxi, and even prior to the recent patches in ffxiv, I knew a handful of high level crafters by name and if i ever needed a service from them i'd willingly pay a price and seek their help. Nowadays, as i look through my ls list i see 2-3 level 50 wvrs with 7 more leveling. And its true across the board for all crafts. While its understandable the longer the game is out the more variety we'll see.. but i feel like a lot of the people who are leveling their crafting jobs now are not doing it because they have nothing else better to do, but are rather forced into it by the materia system.

3. Trivializing Rare/EX drops - This to me is the biggest problem I have with the materia system. With the advent of the materia system, rare/ex gear has fallen off the radar for the most part. Any upcoming new rare/ex gear will likely be the hot topic for a couple months before it too will fall prey to the materia system and be forgotten. One of the biggest benefits of playing an immersive mmo is being able to tackle tough NMs and getting rewarded handsomely for the effort. With the current materia system, ordinary gear can be transformed into extraordinary items (achievable without even leaving town). A perfect example is last night when we took a few members on a Dzemeal Darkhold run for their first time. It took a couple hours to get everyone used to the fight and when we finally killed Batraal, everyone felt a great deal of satisfaction... until of course they saw the drops. Most already had melded gear comparable or better than what we got, and the only thrill came from seeing a blue item in their inventory. Down the road when they introduce Job Specific Gear, I want to wear those pieces to identify myself with my job but I fear that felt robe with 3 materias melded will top any possible stats a JSE can offer.

There are however some pros to the materia system, specifically that it does offer people something to do with their old gear and something for end game players to do while waiting for the next patch. I just feel in its current state it is bad for the future of the game and unless they abolish it or revamp it completely, we'll end up with a game completely dictated by a senseless materia system.


Please let me know what you guys think of the materia system and its impact on the gameplay.


Edited, Oct 26th 2011 12:55pm by lightacadi


Hmmm interesting post.... at times I was ready to start raising the battle flag against your opinions, and then in other parts I was cheering that "someone actually feels the way I do!!!"
#19 Oct 27 2011 at 10:00 PM Rating: Good
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It's only bad for us if we use it to much and get Mako poisoning...
#20 Oct 28 2011 at 1:27 AM Rating: Excellent
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I like the materia system. Gives me something to do in a game with such little end-game content at the moment.

Shame about those NMs though. :(
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#21 Oct 28 2011 at 6:09 AM Rating: Good
RamseySylph wrote:
It's only bad for us if we use it to much and get Mako poisoning...
You can't get mako poisoning from materia, you need heavy exposure to raw mako.
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#22 Oct 28 2011 at 6:11 AM Rating: Good
Omena wrote:
Duke Lubriderm wrote:
In regards to #3, I think they should make the rare/ex meldable. Problem solved.

Not quite. Double materia gear would still beat it and you wouldn't want to try slotting two into rare/ex.
Why not? Bigger reward will require a bigger risk.
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#23 Oct 28 2011 at 6:20 AM Rating: Decent
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Omena wrote:
Still, I don't think rarity should come from manufacturing cost but from difficulty of content. An item with multiple materia may be very expensive to make due to the extreme material loss from failed melds, but the only challenge is a monetary one and the player's abilities are at no point tested.


So you are implying that in an economy where a player's wealth is only relative to other players wealth, it does not require any skill, abilities, nor dedication from said player to acquire (and most importantly, make proper use of) more wealth in said economy?

Quote:
Monetary achievement is a measure of the players abilities if the game is designed in such a way that it takes skill to make money. FFXIV could be that way, it has the potential to lean in that direction.


Pretty much.

I don't agree that the game could end up like EVE though. Being skilled in combat can still reward you generously, especially considering the stats could go beyond crafted gear with one materia attached, which is the standard the game is balanced on. At that point it is more about the player's obsession with bigger and bigger numbers, nothing more.

That said, casuals have no need to participate in playing with the economy if they don't want to, and core players should be able to get away without it as well for the most part. In an interview it was hinted that to apply to legacy items you may need to use materia system to meet the requirements, but even then I find it hard to believe that you couldn't meet said requirements with just few materias attached per item.

Edited, Oct 28th 2011 12:31pm by Hyanmen
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#24 Oct 28 2011 at 12:25 PM Rating: Default
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Duke Lubriderm wrote:

Why not? Bigger reward will require a bigger risk.

In finance, yes. In a game, bigger challenge should equal bigger reward.

Hyanmen wrote:

So you are implying that in an economy where a player's wealth is only relative to other players wealth, it does not require any skill, abilities, nor dedication from said player to acquire (and most importantly, make proper use of) more wealth in said economy?

Yes. My keyboard macro does it for me.



Edited, Oct 28th 2011 2:25pm by Omena
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#25 Oct 28 2011 at 1:03 PM Rating: Default
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I posted this in the MRD section but I wanted to chime in with my idea's around this concept as well.

Below is a list of what I believe would be the best HP Setup for MRD tank. The max HP gained from Materia is capped @ 280 per Yoshi's post. With 2x perfect 70HP materia's attached on a single gear you could meet this cap in 2 pieces of gear for a total of 280 HP from materia however that is unrealistic. Odds of attaching a III with a IV are around 18-25% depending on the total stats of each gear. Needless to say this can get very $$$ but it is not very hard to attach 2x III's or 1x IV and 1x III materia to once peice of gear. For the setup below I opted to finish off the 280 HP cap (if needed) by way of VIT materia instead of HP since it gives a 1 to 1 ratio of 1 HP per point of VIT and also reduces damage. Each peice of gear will have 2x materia of the stat listed below. A stat range of 2x the lowest III to 2x perfect IV's is listed as well.

With all things being perfect below you "Could" reach 360 HP (80 over cap) from materia (ya right) so you will have to make it up. I am shooting for exactly 280HP from VIT and HP materia combined to leave other slots where HP or VIT would not give the best benefit for other mitigation stats (DEX, EVA, M.EVA). I have not seen any parses yet for mitigation stats so I'm going with my gut so to speak.

From the gear alone you will get a total of 266 HP (including VIT stats) with the possibility of 204 (2x Lowest III materia) to 360 (2x Perfect IV materia). Personally I have already attached 7 pieces of gear with either 2x III, 1x III and 1x IV. Last night I made an Electrum Scepter with 68 MP! on it for our THM. So far I have not been able to make 2x IV stick yet however I will keep trying as I want to create the best armor set I can. Square allowed the Sentinel set to be Meldable so if your really really brave you could potentially make a godly/valuable gear set out of it as well. I leave this for the super rich.

SLOT-----Gear------------------------HPGEAR+VIT-----2xMateriaRange-----HPW + MateriaRange
Head-----Cobalt Celata (Red)-----------45--------------32-50 M.Eva---------45
Body-----Cobalt Cuirass (Red)----------67-------------22-40 VIT--------------67 + 22-40
Belt-----Cobalt Plate Belt-------------------2------------80-140 HP-------------2 + 80-140
Hands--Cobalt Gauntlets (Red)--------33--------------22-40 DEX------------33
Legs-----Boarskin Skirt (Red)------------28-----------80-140 HP-------------28 + 80-140
Feet-----Cobalt Sabatons (Red)---------32-------------32-50 Eva-------------32
Weap---Demilune Bhuj--------------------0---------------22-40 VIT-------------22-40
Wrist----Mithril Wristlet-------------------26----------------N/A-------------------26
Wrist----Mithril Wristlet-------------------26----------------N/A-------------------26
Ring-----Heliodor Ring----------------------7-----------------N/A-------------------7

-Dame Guy
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#26 Oct 28 2011 at 3:48 PM Rating: Decent
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Omena wrote:
Yes. My keyboard macro does it for me.


If it were that easy everyone would be rich- and when I say that, I mean no one would be rich.

When everyone has 10000000gil, it might as well be 100gil. But good luck in trying. Once the economy balances I'm sure your keyboard macro will outlast all the competition.

Edited, Oct 28th 2011 9:49pm by Hyanmen
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#27 Oct 28 2011 at 5:43 PM Rating: Decent
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Hyanmen wrote:

If it were that easy everyone would be rich- and when I say that, I mean no one would be rich.

When everyone has 10000000gil, it might as well be 100gil. But good luck in trying. Once the economy balances I'm sure your keyboard macro will outlast all the competition.

Time = money. If I mash my enter key more than everyone else, I'll make more money. I don't need any skill to do it.
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#28 Oct 29 2011 at 2:40 AM Rating: Decent
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Omena wrote:
Time = money. If I mash my enter key more than everyone else, I'll make more money. I don't need any skill to do it.


And if you repeat the same encounter more than everyone else, you are guaranteed to clear it sooner or later. You don't need any skill to do it.

If you press buttons fast enough, you'll be better than everyone else. You don't need any skill to press buttons.

I think it's rather hilarious how you have to dumb down the whole process to make a point; that goes both ways. Just because you have more time doesn't mean you will be able to use said time productively. Some people are better at it than others.
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#29 Oct 29 2011 at 2:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Hyanmen wrote:

And if you repeat the same encounter more than everyone else, you are guaranteed to clear it sooner or later. You don't need any skill to do it.

No you aren't guaranteed to clear it. You have to perform well enough, i.e. have enough skill, to clear it. The encounter won't just automatically give up and clear itself if you try it enough times.

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#30 Oct 29 2011 at 2:57 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm getting ready to pick up FFXIV again, but my only concern with this materia system is that it turns out like Aion's enchanting and socketing which can get pretty frustrating and the probably one of the largest contributor to killing that game off. Hopefully its not as bad.
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#31 Oct 30 2011 at 2:30 AM Rating: Good
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Omena wrote:

No you aren't guaranteed to clear it. You have to perform well enough, i.e. have enough skill, to clear it. The encounter won't just automatically give up and clear itself if you try it enough times.


Beating around the bush are we? Similarly having more time than others does not guarantee that you will become relatively much wealthier than others. Time + enter key is never enough. You need to gather knowledge, you need to see opportunities, you need to USE them. You have to perform well enough to become better at making money than others. Some people are left farming cockatrice meat with their 16 hours a day, some others see the opportunity around managing a whole Linkshell that can make 100 times as much in a similar time period. See untapped potential in a fight no one has ever put time into, thinking it is not worth their while with the recommended group setup, and you go and clear it alone and reap the benefits? "You can't solo the 4 Gods", people said. Yet it was done, and those people reaped the benefits, while the naysayers were left eating the dust.

While you won't clear a hard encounter with just time alone, it is also a huge benefit just like it is with making money. Try to clear it enough times and you are almost guaranteed a success. Your muscle memory improves, you learn the AI patterns, you become better at reacting. Just by repeating the encounter time and time and time again. Just with enough time you will become more skilled and will have an advantage over those who get to try said encounter once or twice a week. Period.
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#32 Oct 30 2011 at 10:17 AM Rating: Decent
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I wish our characters could smoke Materia in a peace pipe....just an idea.
#33 Oct 31 2011 at 8:27 AM Rating: Good
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others have weighed in on this, but I would like to further address point 3.

while i can't find any of the articles or topics that made mention of this right now, I believe i read somewhere that while at some point down the road materia might be meldable to certain rare/ex items, the current goal was to allow players the opportunity to have items of equal or slightly lesser values, that would not completely exclude them from participating in parties and other content. In particular, I believe the thought was directed at casual players, and the possibility of them being excluded from some content by other players, because they did not have uber weapon or armor.

Example: Player A has Cerberus Sword or whatever, Str+20, Atk+20, Dex+20, Acc+20. Player B has a Templars Falchion, Str+2, Vit+3, Atk+7, Def+5, but its been socketed with +10 Str and Atk materia. Now player B won't feel like some noob because they haven't been able to participate in a Cerberus fight and get the drop, can still do some damage, and hopefully will not be shunned from participating in things, just because they can't play as much or whatever.

In regards to a point someone else brought up regarding advance jobs for DoH/DoL, until i read it for myself, i am holding out hope that they will have some type of advance job participation, or something similar. What this might entail, i'm not completely sure of, but i would say exclusive recipes, or bonuses to existing ones. Heck, maybe even combine DoH and DoL into jobs, like 30CUL/15FSH to unlock Sushi Master or 30GLD/15MIN to unlock Jewelcrafter.
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#34 Oct 31 2011 at 8:44 AM Rating: Decent
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With all honesty considering how things don't stay the same for very long i would not spend money to get materia from wards... SB armor, and use what ever you get from that. As of yet i have not seen a big difference from item X with materia and W item without. My GLD (gladiator not goldsmith(GSM)) has at least 1 materia slotted in each armor/weapon/shield and i don't really see it making a make or brake difference. Still getting hit the same on Ifrit as before any materia.

Edited, Oct 31st 2011 10:47am by TwiddleDee
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#35 Oct 31 2011 at 2:54 PM Rating: Excellent
It gives R50s a reason to party with 45+ players, similar to the merit system. Resulting in easy-to-find parties 45+ with extra power and speed. I find it nice in this regard.

As far as all the gear that is being just evaporated out of the game, this seems to be making it noticably more difficult to find low and mid-level gear in the Wards (perhaps no more so than before materia). Hopefully this will be alleiviated in some ways by the new AH system. The bulk of the evaporated gear is 40+, it doesn't seem that having less gear in this range is really an issue.

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In the long run what we'll end up having is that everyone will have a crafting job leveled...

I doubt this very much.

As you stated, the Materia System gives R50s a reason to continue playing in addition to the limited end-game options. Seems to me this is more important than the negative aspects.
#36 Oct 31 2011 at 6:23 PM Rating: Decent
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Hyanmen wrote:
Omena wrote:

No you aren't guaranteed to clear it. You have to perform well enough, i.e. have enough skill, to clear it. The encounter won't just automatically give up and clear itself if you try it enough times.


Beating around the bush are we? Similarly having more time than others does not guarantee that you will become relatively much wealthier than others. Time + enter key is never enough. You need to gather knowledge, you need to see opportunities, you need to USE them. You have to perform well enough to become better at making money than others. Some people are left farming cockatrice meat with their 16 hours a day, some others see the opportunity around managing a whole Linkshell that can make 100 times as much in a similar time period. See untapped potential in a fight no one has ever put time into, thinking it is not worth their while with the recommended group setup, and you go and clear it alone and reap the benefits? "You can't solo the 4 Gods", people said. Yet it was done, and those people reaped the benefits, while the naysayers were left eating the dust.

While you won't clear a hard encounter with just time alone, it is also a huge benefit just like it is with making money. Try to clear it enough times and you are almost guaranteed a success. Your muscle memory improves, you learn the AI patterns, you become better at reacting. Just by repeating the encounter time and time and time again. Just with enough time you will become more skilled and will have an advantage over those who get to try said encounter once or twice a week. Period.

Oh please. The fastest ways to make money all involve 1) refining materials into other materials or finished gear or 2) farming easy mobs for drops. I'd be pretty astonished if you somehow managed to fail at that even once. If your synth blows up, it's probably the RNG ******** you in the eye, too. Comparing any of this to beating Ifrit is laughable. Besides, soloing the four gods was a tiny bit more about execution than realizing that there are four gods there just waiting to be killed.

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#37 Oct 31 2011 at 7:10 PM Rating: Good
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lightacadi wrote:
1. Impact on Economy - Ever since the materia system has been introduced the economy has been completely erratic and unpredicatable. Yes, the materia system has given a boost to the market wards with the demand of "cheap" old gear. But the very nature of materia conversion has made people greedy and illogical. How many of us have seen Heaven's Fist materia being sold for 1mil + in the wards or in bazaars? How many of us have KNOWN players that have bought tier IV materia for 600k+?? Many of these tier IV materias were converted from dated gear that went for about 80k-100k on the markets and yet suddenly their materia counterpart (due to a lucky conversion) is worth 5 to 10 times the value? To me that's just insane.. and completely irrational.. but its happening now and on a frequent basis. Not to mention the gouging of dated armor prices. SE's intent for the materia system was to get people to convert their dated armor into materia so when they eventually phase those gears out, at least everyone will have gotten some use out of them. Unfortunately, rather than seeing a decrease in dated gear being made and sold in the markets, I am actually seeing a rise in those particular gears. When tier IV HP materia was confirmed from Dated Mythril Wristlets, the price of those bracelets shot up to 200k on my server before people caught on and flooded the market. Who's to say what the next flavor of the week is and what particular piece of equipment will be priced at ridiculously inflated prices?? A healthy economy is one where value and price coincide, but with this current system I don't see it stabilizing anytime soon.


You seem to be laboring under the supposition that the value of a good has some kind of objective reality - it does not. Value is entirely subjective, varies from person to person, and can only be measured indirectly by seeing how much someone is willing to pay.

Furthermore, economies are organic entities, driven by complex feedback mechanisms. This means that when there is a significant change (like, say, the introduction of the Materia system), it takes some time for the system to find a new equilibrium and iron out the instabilities - and this equilibrium cannot be imposed from outside without, ironically, introducing even more instabilities elsewhere in the system.

In fact, a "healthy economy" is marked by major price instability - it's just that price instability is larger and more noticeable in a game where certain features of real economies have been abstracted away and the scale reduced to, essentially, that of a medium-sized city.
#38 Oct 31 2011 at 7:32 PM Rating: Excellent
A lot of people have a lot of gil right now. SE has been introducing more and more gil sinks to attempt to drain some of that money from the game. Once the general wealth of your server goes down, the prices of materia will fall as people realize that people are no longer willing to spend as much on Materia as they were when it first came out. That, and eventually the majority of people who will only single socket (maybe double...) will fill their gear and stop needing Materia. The supply will build up and the demand will fall and prices will decline. Even quicker if easy ways are found of getting certain types of materia.

A similar example: Felt was selling for close to 150K each shortly after the 1.19 patch. After an increase in farming and the introduction of the new camps for farming Karakul Fleece the price has fallen to about 30~40K each now. A lot of smart people will take adavantage of such opportunities. Farming Karakul Fleece on your own in the beginning and making your own Undyed Felt, you could make 15M gil per stack...then once the prices back down buy up a large supply of Undyed Felt for 20% of the original price. You now have 5 stcaks of Undyed Felt for the time/effort it took you to get one stack.

Similar thing happened with me and Materia. I made a lot of Materia right after the patch, and ook advantage of limited supply/rarity to make a lot of quick and easy gil. I put off my own need knowing prices would fall overall. By being patient I was able to come out ahead by having the ability to outright buy a lot of the materia I needed at lower prices once a larger quantity of people were generating Materia.

In the long run I don't think Materia will serverly impact the economy on its own. It will always have its own market...being able to upgrade items to improve performance is nice and will always be desired. But as new gear is released and old gear is made obsolete, more and more materia will be made, and so prices in general will continue to fall.

As far as the perfect Tier IVs go... well their prices will always be high, but those are reserved for the people that want the best of the best...and are willing to pay for it. Most will be more reasonable, opting for a slight decrease in bonus to save themselves millions of gil. In my opinion, the system will balance itself out.
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#39 Nov 01 2011 at 12:14 AM Rating: Decent
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Omena wrote:

Oh please. The fastest ways to make money all involve 1) refining materials into other materials or finished gear or 2) farming easy mobs for drops. I'd be pretty astonished if you somehow managed to fail at that even once. If your synth blows up, it's probably the RNG ******** you in the eye, too. Comparing any of this to beating Ifrit is laughable. Besides, soloing the four gods was a tiny bit more about execution than realizing that there are four gods there just waiting to be killed.


The fastest way to become richer than others is to benefit from doing something others don't do.

Just because you manage to obtain money using resources and methods your grandma could figure out doesn't mean you are becoming relatively richer.

My Four Gods example only shows that becoming rich can be tiny bit more about execution than pressing enter as well. If people think it can't be done, and you go and do it, you are ahead and you will reap the benefits (money).

The fact is that if you do something that everyone else can do and does, none of you will become any richer. Everyone has 10 000 gil = Everyone has 100 gil.

You have said nothing so far to state otherwise. You are only rich relative to everyone else. If you do something everyone else does, you don't benefit as much from it either. These are facts, and they completely prove wrong everything you have had to say so far.
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#40 Nov 01 2011 at 1:56 AM Rating: Good
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The main problem I have with the Materia system is the Spirit Bonding mechanic doesn't allow you to generate materia during the normal play of the game. You have gear for serious play and then crap gear you wear just to generate materia. A game mechanic that leads to Spirit Bonding parties is as ugly as one that leads to Skill-up parties in FFXI.
#41 Nov 01 2011 at 3:49 AM Rating: Decent
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midguardian wrote:
The main problem I have with the Materia system is the Spirit Bonding mechanic doesn't allow you to generate materia during the normal play of the game. You have gear for serious play and then crap gear you wear just to generate materia. A game mechanic that leads to Spirit Bonding parties is as ugly as one that leads to Skill-up parties in FFXI.


I see it more as a way to lengthen the leveling process past level cap (ex. Merits). What you will get out of participating in Spirit Bonding is better stats (or money, that you can convert into better stats).

It can be essentially a way to make money. It's better use of your time than skill up parties in that regard, in all honesty. Skill up parties felt like catching up to your real "job level" instead of being something actually productive.

What is it that makes it "ugly", I can't tell from your post. You don't have to do it if you can figure out another way to obtain Materia. You can (once they balance the itemization), essentially skip it altogether if you get by with r/ex gear alone, if it isn't your cup of tea.
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#42 Nov 01 2011 at 4:48 PM Rating: Decent
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Hyanmen wrote:

You have said nothing so far to state otherwise. You are only rich relative to everyone else. If you do something everyone else does, you don't benefit as much from it either. These are facts, and they completely prove wrong everything you have had to say so far.

I can do something everyone else does and become richer by doing more of it. If I farm bomb ash for ten hours I'll grow richer relative to the guy who only farms bomb ash for five hours. Also, guess what? Bombs are really easy!

It's not like we have the kind of trading platforms that would really allow skill to matter in money making. Items aren't liquid enough, price information isn't good enough, there are no market makers to match orders and our selling/buying capacity is severely bottlenecked by the bazaar item limit. Give me enough price information (bid/ask spreads), price history in graph form with technical indicators and unlimited capacity to go either long or short. Options wouldn't hurt, either. Only then will there be an opportunity to truly shine at making gil without automatically having to be good at combat as well.

Edited, Nov 1st 2011 7:02pm by Omena
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#43 Nov 02 2011 at 12:41 AM Rating: Decent
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Omena wrote:

I can do something everyone else does and become richer by doing more of it. If I farm bomb ash for ten hours I'll grow richer relative to the guy who only farms bomb ash for five hours. Also, guess what? Bombs are really easy!


And I can become better at fighting Ifrit by repeating the fight for 10 hours instead of 5. Still, some people are going to be better than me from the get-go and they will be the ones to get ahead of me. Then, the 10 hours a day fellow may not even have the skill to manage his wealth properly and never become truly rich, because he keeps spending all his savings. 1.19 is the best example of this, as many people with tens of millions of gil are down to hundred thousands. The space of wealth has shifted considerably already.

And, unsurprisingly (we have gone over this a million times now) the same applies to making money. You can do something everyone else does but in larger quantities and become richer than them that way. Yet it's quite ineffective and time-consuming and doesn't put you in a much better position at all. People who make a true difference in wealth are those who are better at looking for opportunities other people don't see. It's unlikely that they even have to dedicate as much time to it as the guy farming cockatrice meat for 10 hours a day.

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It's not like we have the kind of trading platforms that would really allow skill to matter in money making. Items aren't liquid enough, price information isn't good enough, there are no market makers to match orders and our selling/buying capacity is severely bottlenecked by the bazaar item limit. Give me enough price information (bid/ask spreads), price history in graph form with technical indicators and unlimited capacity to go either long or short. Options wouldn't hurt, either. Only then will there be an opportunity to truly shine at making gil without automatically having to be good at combat as well.


We have exactly the kind of trading platforms that allow for more opportunities to arise, because a lot of information isn't readily available to those participating in the economy. That means you are left to figure it out yourself. Not to mention since 1.19 the current economy has been in turbulence and many many opportunities have arisen, but this won't be the case for too long anymore I'd guess.

When you make everything transparent as you suggest, making profit truly become a harder task because competition has access to all the same information as you do. Either way if it was just about pressing Enter you wouldn't have mentioned all those things, so we are finally getting to the point. It was never about pressing Enter but all those aspects you are talking about.

You can still shine at making money, but the scale of profitability is much higher today than it will be in the future. Anyone can make profit now, but some people that see the extraordinary opportunities will pull much ahead, regardless of how many others manage to do the same to a lower degree.

Edited, Nov 2nd 2011 6:42am by Hyanmen
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We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#44 Nov 02 2011 at 7:20 AM Rating: Decent
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Hyanmen wrote:

And I can become better at fighting Ifrit by repeating the fight for 10 hours instead of 5. Still, some people are going to be better than me from the get-go and they will be the ones to get ahead of me. Then, the 10 hours a day fellow may not even have the skill to manage his wealth properly and never become truly rich, because he keeps spending all his savings. 1.19 is the best example of this, as many people with tens of millions of gil are down to hundred thousands. The space of wealth has shifted considerably already.

You seem to be confused. Skill is not some magical talent you start out with, it's your ability to perform a task. Repetition and practice increase your skill, so when you fail at first, but keep practicing, you become better, more skilled.

Managing wealth in FFXIV isn't about conceiving or executing a grand plan. Dumbasses will always live over their means and saying someone is very skilled because they aren't wasting their fortunes on stupid **** is putting the bar pretty **** low, I'd say.

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People who make a true difference in wealth are those who are better at looking for opportunities other people don't see. It's unlikely that they even have to dedicate as much time to it as the guy farming cockatrice meat for 10 hours a day.

Well, if there truly are these opportunities out there, please do explain. Shortly after new patches you can rip people off left and right, but once the version matures, these opportunities slowly vanish as information spreads and we're again all back to farming bomb ash.

Quote:

We have exactly the kind of trading platforms that allow for more opportunities to arise, because a lot of information isn't readily available to those participating in the economy. That means you are left to figure it out yourself. Not to mention since 1.19 the current economy has been in turbulence and many many opportunities have arisen, but this won't be the case for too long anymore I'd guess.

When you make everything transparent as you suggest, making profit truly become a harder task because competition has access to all the same information as you do. Either way if it was just about pressing Enter you wouldn't have mentioned all those things, so we are finally getting to the point. It was never about pressing Enter but all those aspects you are talking about.

You can still shine at making money, but the scale of profitability is much higher today than it will be in the future. Anyone can make profit now, but some people that see the extraordinary opportunities will pull much ahead, regardless of how many others manage to do the same to a lower degree.

I bolded the important part because you hit the nail on the head. Sure, I know a lot of people vendor bomb ash because they don't know it sells for 7-10k, but does that make them bad at making money? There is very little reason to look up prices of random items and even then you can't be sure if the items actually sell at the listed prices. For quite some time I tried to sell biast and drake scales for thousands of gil because that's what the other retainers had them up for but none were ever sold. You simply can't apply skill to hidden information. I's like shooting blind; hitting is all about luck no matter how good a marksman you are.
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#45 Nov 02 2011 at 9:01 AM Rating: Decent
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2,214 posts
Well, as long as the new Auction House style system includes previous sale price and/or date of last sale we should be good to resolve a lot of these issues. Similiar to 11 where there were items that sold for 1 million gil, but no one had ever bought one through the AH... With every major update to 11 there were always items that just shot through the roof in price until demand could be satisified.

Materia creates a new twist in that people who want extremely potent gear will blow up several peices of high level armor and materia just to make a single peice of gear will create a constant demand for those items as consumables.

As for bomb ash, that one is an oxymoron. You can NPC them for nearly nothing, or sell the Ash on a retainer for significantly more, however, since they are easy to farm, and easy to NPC you find people who need it farming it, and those who accidently get it NPCing it. As an aspiring armorer and miner, I have to say, I can get 3 stacks of Iron ore in the time it takes me to get one stack of Cobalt ore. It takes me a quarter of that time to get a stack of bomb ash, and the whole time I get an assortment of shards to help sustain the quantity of synths I am going to perform. So, when all is said and done, I spend one day farming Cobalt, one day setting up from previous crafts w/ my NPC and then farming ash, then I can spend an entire weekend burning through the 300+ synths I just farmed for...

Now, I am more pragmatic at crafting then many people. There are the people who would just as soon spend their gil and buy the items, and turn around and craft (hence the idea of a functional economy), but with the current population, and the ease of some items to obtain (and depending on what you are going to profit off of, vs the items you just end up with), many people will just as soon NPC items then try and deal with the current retainer system, and the time it takes to research each item, determine if it is worth the time and money to sell, and then post them in their retainer.

The nice thing is that people are finding their niche (such as you mentioned with Bomb Ash), and it helps crafters burn through items.

Now if people can only adjust to areas, and have retainers in Limsa (and people go to retainers in limsa) for items like bomb ash, we could see a real economy grow in this game.
#46 Nov 02 2011 at 12:10 PM Rating: Default
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3,416 posts
Omena wrote:
You seem to be confused. Skill is not some magical talent you start out with, it's your ability to perform a task. Repetition and practice increase your skill, so when you fail at first, but keep practicing, you become better, more skilled.

Managing wealth in FFXIV isn't about conceiving or executing a grand plan. Dumbasses will always live over their means and saying someone is very skilled because they aren't wasting their fortunes on stupid sh*t is putting the bar pretty **** low, I'd say.


Yes, and the ultimate skill is to perform better than other humans. AI on the other hand is always going to be predictable.

Being able to manage your wealth (not just being a Scrooge about it and not spending it) is only a part of being skilled. Yet again you are over-simplifying something which makes your statements inaccurate, which is too bad as it seems to be the only way you can make a point.

Quote:
Well, if there truly are these opportunities out there, please do explain. Shortly after new patches you can rip people off left and right, but once the version matures, these opportunities slowly vanish as information spreads and we're again all back to farming bomb ash.


I would say that managing a community around the concept of acquiring combined wealth is up there. Obviously a part of making use of the opportunities is to not spill the beans when you figure out a profitable venue. Nobody is going to tell you how to become truly wealthy, you need to outsmart everyone else and see things they don't.

Quote:

I bolded the important part because you hit the nail on the head. Sure, I know a lot of people vendor bomb ash because they don't know it sells for 7-10k, but does that make them bad at making money? There is very little reason to look up prices of random items and even then you can't be sure if the items actually sell at the listed prices. For quite some time I tried to sell biast and drake scales for thousands of gil because that's what the other retainers had them up for but none were ever sold. You simply can't apply skill to hidden information. I's like shooting blind; hitting is all about luck no matter how good a marksman you are.


This is exactly where skill comes into play. No information is truly "hidden" or impossible to figure out. In your case you simply acted like a sheep doing what others did and that did not pay off for you. Reading the economy takes skill that you do not seem to possess. What is the scales used for? Is there potential in the item becoming popular (what are it's effects like when compared to other items like it)? Is it selling for higher than it should compared to it's utility? How easy is it to acquire the scales? In which city is there most demand?

Then again, being able to focus is also important. Looking up information for everything when your time could be used more productively is a bad practice.
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We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#47 Nov 04 2011 at 8:50 AM Rating: Excellent
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Hyanmen wrote:

Yes, and the ultimate skill is to perform better than other humans. AI on the other hand is always going to be predictable.

But you aren't really directly competing with other humans in this game. When I undercut someone I don't feel like I just scored a grand triumph. The guy doesn't even know I just passed him in the queue. Once I competed for claims at a bomb camp, too, but I didn't exactly feel like I was taking part in a contest of gil making mastery there. I guess I also didn't buy 1.19 gear until weeks into it because I knew it would be overpriced, but come on, it's not rocket science. In this game the only real challenge comes from PVE.

Quote:

Being able to manage your wealth (not just being a Scrooge about it and not spending it) is only a part of being skilled. Yet again you are over-simplifying something which makes your statements inaccurate, which is too bad as it seems to be the only way you can make a point.

No, I'm not over-simplifying anything. I'm only, unlike you, providing concrete examples of how the game is actually played while you beat around the bush with vague suggestions. Or perhaps you just like to argue for the sake of arguing? BTW, do you even play the game? For a long time you debated very actively without having any significant experience of actually playing the game.

Quote:
I would say that managing a community around the concept of acquiring combined wealth is up there. Obviously a part of making use of the opportunities is to not spill the beans when you figure out a profitable venue. Nobody is going to tell you how to become truly wealthy, you need to outsmart everyone else and see things they don't.

Translation: Run a HNM LS, right? See how easy it was to say without being vague? Well, you need people who can fight to do that. The rest almost comes naturally assuming your LS leadership works. Also, in this game the rewards for killing HNMs suck, which is why nobody does it. Sure Dodore Doublet was still 2+ mil when I last checked, but why would anyone buy it when you can get a better piece for less than 100k? I bet not one has been sold in quite a while.

Quote:

This is exactly where skill comes into play. No information is truly "hidden" or impossible to figure out. In your case you simply acted like a sheep doing what others did and that did not pay off for you. Reading the economy takes skill that you do not seem to possess. What is the scales used for? Is there potential in the item becoming popular (what are it's effects like when compared to other items like it)? Is it selling for higher than it should compared to it's utility? How easy is it to acquire the scales? In which city is there most demand?

Then again, being able to focus is also important. Looking up information for everything when your time could be used more productively is a bad practice.

It absolutely is hidden information. You just said it yourself: I can look it up to find out but then I could be wasting my time. There is no way to know until you do. Then there are plenty of items like random low-mid level gear that may have very limited price information available. How are you going to determine the optimal selling price? You can't, because an economy can't be efficiently managed by one person and you just don't know how much demand there is for it, so you go by an estimation of its value, a subjective estimation (insert something about the failures of planned economies here). You can try to draw conclusions based on if there are NM drops in the level range but ultimately you still don't know how many people want the item.


Edited, Nov 4th 2011 10:54am by Omena
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#48 Nov 04 2011 at 11:54 AM Rating: Excellent
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well it seems my fears will come true after all. Yoshida has confirmed that gear with multiple materia melded will be better than AF gear =/ This news makes me sad.

#49 Nov 04 2011 at 12:05 PM Rating: Default
Take into consideration what StateAlchemist said in the Yoshi-P Gives More Answers thread:

StateAlchemist of Amestris wrote:
He said that gear with multiple materia attachments will probably be better. And socketing two materia is no small task. I personally have gotten lucky before...but then again I also ran into a bad streak getting two MP materia (mind you these were only Teir IIs too...) on a Felt Robe (Green). I failed 6 times before successfully getting the second materia on it. Not everyone is willing to do this, so for those that can't afford to keep buying gear and materia and failing, then yes, the upcoming JSE will be a welcome sight.


Also, consider that JSE at level 50 would not be "best-in-slot" for long once the cap is raised to 60, 65, 75, 99 - Optimizing your character is a constantly changing task.

Edited, Nov 4th 2011 2:05pm by Dyrwydi
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#50 Nov 04 2011 at 12:15 PM Rating: Excellent
Professor Dyrwydi wrote:
Take into consideration what StateAlchemist said in the Yoshi-P Gives More Answers thread:

StateAlchemist of Amestris wrote:
He said that gear with multiple materia attachments will probably be better. And socketing two materia is no small task. I personally have gotten lucky before...but then again I also ran into a bad streak getting two MP materia (mind you these were only Teir IIs too...) on a Felt Robe (Green). I failed 6 times before successfully getting the second materia on it. Not everyone is willing to do this, so for those that can't afford to keep buying gear and materia and failing, then yes, the upcoming JSE will be a welcome sight.


Also, consider that JSE at level 50 would not be "best-in-slot" for long once the cap is raised to 60, 65, 75, 99 - Optimizing your character is a constantly changing task.

Edited, Nov 4th 2011 2:05pm by Dyrwydi

And to those who spend millions socketing multiple materia...incoming lolz when 60+gear is realeased with base stats better then your gear...xD
Only reason I am toying with it atm is cause its fun exploding gear.

Edited, Nov 4th 2011 2:15pm by StateAlchemist
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#51 Nov 04 2011 at 12:26 PM Rating: Good
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178 posts
I completely agree with what SA said in the other thread. By the time JSE comes out there will be a majority of players who would welcome the benefits of the JSE gear with open arms. But let's also factor in the players who ARE and HAVE ALREADY been doing the materia binding marathons. The % for binding a second IV or III materia onto an armor ranges from 10-27% which is not high by any means but not ridiculously low to prevent high level crafters from mass producing gear and attempting multiple binds. I have already seen some double melded gear on some players with amazing stats that may turn out to be better than the unreleased JSE equivalent. Also consider the fact that all the rare/ex stuff released prior to 1.19 has already become obsolete due to materia gear. Within the next few months the ifrit gear and stronghold items (not including bindable sentinel stuff) will become obsolete. And its already been confirmed that JSE will be trumped by multiple melded gear which means a few months after JSE comes out, those gears will also likely become obsolete. Before the next level cap increase we'll likely see a majority of high level mages running around in felt robes again despite the release of all the cool JSE gear.
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