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FFXIV Failure (Prime Reason) (if)?Follow

#152 Nov 04 2011 at 6:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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Still at it? All I really care about is how many people are actively playing and how many will be paying the monthly subscription rate.
#153 Nov 04 2011 at 8:25 PM Rating: Good
Well for me, it's all going to have to do with them keeping up with the initial, play one get the other half off! If I can get FFXI (or this) for 7,00$, I'll consider sticking around XIV. Paying full price for both though, doubtful. I don't think there's been much talk about it since the game hasn't charged in over a year. I just remember, if you bought FFXIV and signed up while having a POL account active between sept 2010 and jan 2010, FFXI would be discounted.
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#154je355804, Posted: Nov 04 2011 at 8:56 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) No, you are just arguing facts. That's all you seem to do.
#155 Nov 04 2011 at 9:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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LeilaniWildfire wrote:
The bottom line is this, SE doesnt make any money on FFXIV at the moment, they REALLY don't care how many people at the moment stay and pay and how many will quit and not pay. It makes really no difference to SE as a company AT THE MOMENT.

You musnt forget that the shareholders may care. If they are given reports that show one section of the company shelling out a lot of money every month keeping serves up and running but bringing in nothing that they may take issue with it.

Just using basic numbers (not meant to be accurate or anywhere close).. If there are 100,000 people playing for free right now but only 5,000 will be playing when they start charging next month, 5,000 paying customers are worth more than having 100,000 nonpaying.

Square just released new financial.. umm.. err.. crap (is what I'll say since I am unsure of the correct term) for the 6th month period ending Sept 30th. If anyone wants to take a look at them.
#156 Nov 04 2011 at 9:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
KujaKoF wrote:
First off, I'm mostly pointing out the difference between 630K units shipped to stores (which presumably were paid for, so sold is an appropriate term), and the difference between units sold by stores to customers. 630k copies reported on financials means jack all to the number of potential players there are.

I don't understand what the point of that link is? First off it has zero citations or sources for its data. Second, it shows that less than 630K units have been sold at this point?


I understand what you're trying to point out. We have this link and the fiscal report that supports that data, but it's just a general report. It doesn't specify that x amount of people purchased, we had y amount of returns and z copies were damaged in transit.

Neither one of us has a source really. VGZ never links its sources because it's actually an estimated total. One that matched up pretty closely with that of SE in their report so I figured it was close enough. Again, it is only being used to show how few of the people who purchased the game still play. Even if the actual total is 300k, 60k(generous) active players is dismal.

Shame on you for not reading the post or the link you clicked. It's less than 630k because it doesn't include Japan.


I looked at your link, I mistook their world wide numbers to include japan, cause why not i was skimming a graph with random numbers without sources that I place zero stock in anyways. I've read posts and I still have zero idea what your point is other than "SE tried to sell 630K units, we don't have very many people to show for it" which I can get behind 100%.

Again, I only brought up the whole thing to attempt to clear up the misconception of games that were sold to stop people inflating the number of customers who bought the game, and making outlandish claims that were supported with zero evidence, and in fact contrary to logic and the small amounts of actual financial numbers (ie income statements). I'm sorry we happened to **** heads over which made up estimations should be used to make ridiculous assumptions with
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#157 Nov 04 2011 at 9:53 PM Rating: Decent
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Disclaimer: Clicking anywhere in this text will direct you to a .pdf file released by Square Enix which supports all of the misconceptions, inflated and random numbers, outlandish claims and whatever the @#%^ else you would like to call it. Please find it in your heart to forgive me for stating what I believed to be true because I read it in an official release from Square Enix. We all know they are a bunch of lying bastards so they probably made this sh*t up too.

Ridiculous assumptions my ***.

Please direct your attention to the bottom of page 5. Have a nice day.




Edited, Nov 4th 2011 11:54pm by FilthMcNasty
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#158 Nov 05 2011 at 8:42 AM Rating: Good
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Since you've tried to make this this into a big thing, I'll point out that you need to actually understand what you're reading. That was a projections report for 9/30/10, the actual date the game was released. The number cited there for sales is the number of copies that they sent out to retailers and anticipated payment for. That number I have never argued with anyone about.

Page 2 clearly states "These statements are based on management's assumptions and beliefs in light of information available to it at the time these material were drafted and, therefore, the reader should not place undue reliance on them."

Page 2 also states "SQUARE ENIX GROUP’s ability to continue to win acceptance of our products and services, which are
offered in highly competitive markets characterized by the continuous introduction of new products and
services, rapid developments in technology, and subjective and changing consumer
preferences" In fact. read all of page 2, its the most important part.
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#159 Nov 05 2011 at 9:48 AM Rating: Default
Are we seriously still on the topic of how many box sets were sold/not sold? That is a discussion on the past performance of the game and little to no bearing on the future of the product. Rather it is an indicator of what happens when you disregard the communities input.
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#160 Nov 05 2011 at 2:23 PM Rating: Excellent
Just agree to disagree or something and drop the whole box sales thing and move on with the discussion, please.
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#161 Nov 05 2011 at 2:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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The game just wasn't fun, period. Even setting aside any other issue, the meat of the game-- the battle system-- wasn't merely "clunky"... it was poorly designed. Battles weren't really a challenge, just a matter of figuring out the very simple problem of utilizing your classes limited mechanics and not taking on something too powerful. No real dependency on strategy (the thing they were going for) or reflexive skills. Most people need at least some level of challenge for something to be fun-- otherwise the novelty quickly wears off and they realize, "Hey, I'm grinding. ALREADY." Granted for some people, that's ok... people who have no problem playing an RPG for the story even if it means they're mashing the A button for 20 hours, or people who have never played an MMO and are so preoccupied with what comes next that they lose track of the now. But most of us are not those people. We either don't have that much patience in the first place (and "test your patience" games are rarely good), or we're MMO vets. We can see that what isn't fun in the moment isn't going to somehow be fun 200 hours later.

And from what I've seen so far, the game isn't going to be in much better shape. Yes, it's using a better design, but one that is automatically boring out of familiarity. That might have worked out if they had kicked off with it out of the gate, but in my opinion if SE couldn't do an original game well, they shouldn't have tried.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#162 Nov 05 2011 at 10:35 PM Rating: Default
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Kachi wrote:
The game just wasn't fun, period. Even setting aside any other issue, the meat of the game-- the battle system-- wasn't merely "clunky"... it was poorly designed. Battles weren't really a challenge, just a matter of figuring out the very simple problem of utilizing your classes limited mechanics and not taking on something too powerful. No real dependency on strategy (the thing they were going for) or reflexive skills. Most people need at least some level of challenge for something to be fun-- otherwise the novelty quickly wears off and they realize, "Hey, I'm grinding. ALREADY." Granted for some people, that's ok... people who have no problem playing an RPG for the story even if it means they're mashing the A button for 20 hours, or people who have never played an MMO and are so preoccupied with what comes next that they lose track of the now. But most of us are not those people. We either don't have that much patience in the first place (and "test your patience" games are rarely good), or we're MMO vets. We can see that what isn't fun in the moment isn't going to somehow be fun 200 hours later.

And from what I've seen so far, the game isn't going to be in much better shape. Yes, it's using a better design, but one that is automatically boring out of familiarity. That might have worked out if they had kicked off with it out of the gate, but in my opinion if SE couldn't do an original game well, they shouldn't have tried.



So is what you are saying, is that a "traditional" style MMORPG can no longer be fun to a MMO veteran if there is no massive refinement done to the battle system? (Not being sarcastic or accusing just wondering what you mean by this.) Because as far as I can imagine, a MMORPG is by nearly default a "test-your-patience" type game.
#163 Nov 06 2011 at 5:53 AM Rating: Excellent
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je355804 wrote:
So is what you are saying, is that a "traditional" style MMORPG can no longer be fun to a MMO veteran if there is no massive refinement done to the battle system? (Not being sarcastic or accusing just wondering what you mean by this.) Because as far as I can imagine, a MMORPG is by nearly default a "test-your-patience" type game.


I'm saying that by the basic nature of the human psychology, repeated exposure to the same stimulus (even if its abstract) begins to wear thin to a point where it can no longer be enjoyable. It's the hedonic treadmill. In the absence of both novelty and challenge, there is little to compel an individual to maintain interest. If all your game has to offer are some flimsy goals and basic human interaction, it can only go so far.

Most MMORPGs are that kind of game, no doubt, but it occurs in degrees, and it's really not a matter of necessity so much as rampant incompetence. Some games manage to survive in spite of that because they offer some degree of novelty and learning curve, but the bottom line is that almost everyone quits MMORPGs. It's just a question of when-- how masochistic are you, or how easily amused are you?

I guess it's easy to overlook how many possibilities there are for different gameplay experiences out there when so many developers fail to innovate successfully. So yeah, what I'm saying is that a traditional MMO can only be fun for very long, and that these games don't have to be tests of patience if they aren't designed in such a way.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#164 Nov 06 2011 at 7:37 AM Rating: Good
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This game is more like a test of patience, loyalty and somewhere in there, your faith in God.



Edited, Nov 6th 2011 8:38am by lambon

Edited, Nov 6th 2011 8:38am by lambon
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#165 Nov 06 2011 at 1:54 PM Rating: Decent
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Reciting launch woes is not getting anywhere. If the game's future is forever destined to die based off of inital launch. Then no matter what happens, this game is dead. I believe the game can at least approach the numbers XI had. If SE does most things right and plays the safe route ala XI.

I know a bunch of people who are not the most pc savy players. Who tried to play at launch with a low powered pc. And they just couldn't get the game to a playable state. So how much of those 600k shipped lost was due to bad polish?

Kuja and Kachi are right about grind centric and safe mode mmos possibly wearing out freshness sooner. FFXI may have been a pretty good success in terms of an mmo besides WoW. But it failed to meet it's true potential too. Was this because of the subscription model? Was it because of the grind heavy gameplay? Was it because the game was mmo first and Final Fantasy second? I believe it was a combination of all those things.

Traditionally, people don't play other FF to grind on monsters weeks, months, years to experience the story and progression. The pacing of gameplay and story is what sets an offline rpg from an online one. Also just because a game is PvE centric. Doesn't mean interaction has to only consist of killing things to get stronger. Just look at recent criticism of XIII. People complained about linearity and not enough places to get off the rails and do side content or explore.
Bioware gets criticized/debated for TOR being a single player type story experience. Well maybe? Maybe not? One thing it does for certain is recreate the experience one would get from playing their other rpgs.

XIV will never have a chance to be great if they play it safe and do what every other mmo is doing now. Sure story will never keep pace with gameplay most of the time. But that doesn't mean SE should give up on that front. Whether you like textbox or animated voiced scenes. It matters not, the main goal should be making the content be active and not passive. Put the FFrpg before the mmo, but add the mmo things to expand replayablility. If they can do that with a flexible payment model, good implementation, good reviews. The sky is the limit. In my opinion.
#166 Nov 06 2011 at 2:18 PM Rating: Default
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The key issue with "pace of play" in MMOs is, is that if you are able to experience the entire story line too quickly... you simply won't keep playing.
#167 Nov 06 2011 at 2:48 PM Rating: Decent
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je355804 wrote:
The key issue with "pace of play" in MMOs is, is that if you are able to experience the entire story line too quickly... you simply won't keep playing.

True and this is why I said story can never keep up pace with gameplay. This is why variety of content is so "key" in being the filler gap. When something gets repeated to much. It usually leads to the person getting bored and taking a break.
1.Questing soley gets repetitive.
2.Grinding Monsters gets repetitive.
3.Recycled shared story gets repetitive.
4.PvP gets repetitive.(Well not for me personally, but it can if it's all you do.)
5.Swimming gets repetitive.(If there is no purpose to it and all you do is swim, boring.)
6.Crafting gets repetitive.
7. X feature Gets repetitive.
8-99. Gets repetitive.

Do one of anything for long durations and you get? R.........

SE should strive to deliver at least twice the amount of story that XI had. Alongside creating all that mmo stuff you expect from mmos.
And delivering multiplayer versions of older FF systems. Let the nostalgia kick us in the ***. Chocobo Racing circuit(playable and not only bystander), Magitek battles or arena battle circuits(not a friggin cutscene, but real battle),submarine explorer,snowboarding,people ask for card games? Well I ask for a multiplayer FF tactics to play with friend I'm bored. Blitzball, etc. You saw it in an older FF title and have fond memories? Well XIV let's you relive those moments in a multiplayer setting! The greatest FF in terms of replayability, even if the graphics or story will be slightly less.

And I don't wanna hear that immersion crap. Fun greater than immersion always.
#168 Nov 06 2011 at 10:07 PM Rating: Excellent
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True and this is why I said story can never keep up pace with gameplay. This is why variety of content is so "key" in being the filler gap. When something gets repeated to much. It usually leads to the person getting bored and taking a break.


Actually, if you ask me, I think FFXI is proof that ESPECIALLY for SE, this should never be a problem. I played FFXI pretty **** hardcore, and there were still dozens and dozens of quests that I never completed-- plots that I never finished. I was -constantly- behind despite playing from the NA release. Story doesn't have to be around every corner to drive the gameplay. The issue with much of the story and questing issues in FFXI was that it was too-- surprise-- grindy. They'd have a nice quest with cutscenes and all, and you'd just have to kill 300 of a monster that only spawns a few times a day to get that Rare/EX item with a .33% drop rate. And your reward if you do? A few thousand gil, or something equally worthless.

Granted content development for FFXIV may be significantly more challenging than for XI, but that's a consideration they should have prepared for. Either way, a single writer and a few programmers should be able to churn out basic story quests relatively quickly, and I can't imagine that a company like SE can't manage to have several times that, especially with subscription fees. It's not an inevitability of the business model that more story content and quests can't be developed... it's a plain problem of priorities.

Additionally, a good combat system can serve as a constant source of novelty, but it has to provide deep and challenging gameplay... for a game that aims to keep players for years, it should have enough complexity that to a new player, it would seem utterly overwhelming to understand all the subtleties and nuances (you simply work them in slowly). Games within games... minigames, can also keep the game fresh. SE has frankly done a really ****** job with this, historically.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#169 Nov 07 2011 at 7:23 AM Rating: Good
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And I don't wanna hear that immersion crap. Fun greater than immersion always


You're silly. If you're having fun, you're probably knee deep in the MMO.
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#170 Nov 07 2011 at 10:52 AM Rating: Decent
Kachi wrote:
Snipped for space -
Granted content development for FFXIV may be significantly more challenging than for XI, but that's a consideration they should have prepared for. Either way, a single writer and a few programmers should be able to churn out basic story quests relatively quickly, and I can't imagine that a company like SE can't manage to have several times that, especially with subscription fees. It's not an inevitability of the business model that more story content and quests can't be developed... it's a plain problem of priorities.

Additionally, a good combat system can serve as a constant source of novelty, but it has to provide deep and challenging gameplay... for a game that aims to keep players for years, it should have enough complexity that to a new player, it would seem utterly overwhelming to understand all the subtleties and nuances (you simply work them in slowly). Games within games... minigames, can also keep the game fresh. SE has frankly done a really sh*tty job with this, historically.


Working this in reverse order a bit... "SE has frankly done a really sh*tty job with this, historically" - this is correct within regards to their MMO development, while I would disagree in regards to their console games. Making the switch from linear story-line to open world environment has been a major issue for the development team, but one that I think they can overcome if they can deliver on the current set of promises / plans laid out for the 2.0 release.

In regards to "good combat system" - while I agree that the the current system still feels a lot like a slightly improved turn-based combat, it has come light-years up from where it was at release. Continued improvement on this system will go a long ways towards removing the "grindy" feel of the current game. Stay with me here. If combat consists of using the same 4-5 abilities in a specific order without regard to enemy being engaged then the grind beings. Even though there is a slight element of unpredictability within a given fight that element means one of two things, either the current selection of abilities on the bar will grant you the win, or you die and run back. My thought for addressing this issue is to remove the limitation on equipping "current class" abilities. This would increase the flavor of each class while still allowing you to reach into the pools of knowledge from other classes you've leveled. This then removes some of that "grind" because you bring more mojo to each engagement, or that "source of novelty" you mentioned.

Regarding quest / storyline / side-story content - Agreed, this has been a significant issue for the game. I hope that the Dev team makes this a priority focus, besides simply redesigning the game from the server structure up. Content keeps players, regardless of the map design, combat style, w/e. If you lack content it does not matter what other elements you have. The MMO community has already established that content light games, even those focusing on PVP - where content plays a back-seat role - have a life span of 2-3 years at most. My hope is that the FFXIV team can re-invent the entire game, resetting the "start" date to day one of v2.0, which is going to require a lot of attention on story content.
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#171 Nov 07 2011 at 10:59 AM Rating: Excellent
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je355804 wrote:
The key issue with "pace of play" in MMOs is, is that if you are able to experience the entire story line too quickly... you simply won't keep playing.


This isn't an issue if the MMO developer is releasing new content fast enough to keep it interesting.

*cough* Three years to complete an expansion storyline *cough*
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#172 Nov 07 2011 at 12:33 PM Rating: Decent
FilthMcNasty wrote:
je355804 wrote:
The key issue with "pace of play" in MMOs is, is that if you are able to experience the entire story line too quickly... you simply won't keep playing.


This isn't an issue if the MMO developer is releasing new content fast enough to keep it interesting.

*cough* Three years to complete an expansion storyline *cough*


This is also the benefit of weaving in a lot of side-line stories / quests. Just because you complete the main story doesn't mean that you don't also need to complete the JSE quest, or Grand Company story, or national interests story, or beastmen story, or whatever. While I agree that 3 years is way to long, I am not sure that constantly adding new story content every 3 months is the answer either. I think 1 year is about the right time-frame for major content additions.
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#173 Nov 07 2011 at 1:41 PM Rating: Good
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Constant content update patches will keep players busy, longer than a full blown expansion that takes 1 year to release. Especially if there is no gating. As expansions get further apart it becomes a waiting game of burn through expansion, then player takes long break waiting on the next expansion.

It idealy should be a combination of both patches/mini expansion and full expansions. However The pace of development is dictated by profit. So this may not be possible depending on the game. As polished as WoW is,(I hate the game, but I can't deny it's success)it has an income of more than 5 times most other mmos. But the major expansions release at a snails pace. If actual numbers were listed off of a single game's profits. It is probably the biggest money ***** in gaming on a single game per game basis. Shouldn't the content shoot out of that sucker at least twice the speed of other games?
Cash cow in the dictionary found it. While XI wasn't as profitable, imo it had loads of content over the years.

Will XIV die? I doubt it, but if it doesn't at any point at least surpass it's predecessor in playerbase. It might as well be. They can do it, if they keep pushing and striving to make the game fun and full of variety. Hyanmen has an old quote on SE not wanting to compete with bigger mmos. It most likely never will due to the inital launch. But SE should still be bullheaded and bold as ****. And try some things to shock what gamers expect from mmos.(I know that comment opened up the opportunity for "They did shock at launch." Don't go there.) Being the quiet guy in the corner emulating big brother, won't get you noticed if your big brothers are giants.
#174 Nov 07 2011 at 8:56 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
My thought for addressing this issue is to remove the limitation on equipping "current class" abilities. This would increase the flavor of each class while still allowing you to reach into the pools of knowledge from other classes you've leveled. This then removes some of that "grind" because you bring more mojo to each engagement, or that "source of novelty" you mentioned.


I've agreed with this since before the game was in alpha. From the interviews, it sounded like this was the approach they would take. However, this would only be a good start. If they don't actually balance the abilities, then they aren't adding much novelty-- the selection needs to not only be possible, but at least somewhat viable.

Fundamentally there need to be more interactive elements to the gameplay, though-- more situations where you have to actually react to what your opponent does.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
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