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Letter from the Producer LIVE Part IIFollow

#52 Nov 04 2011 at 1:05 PM Rating: Default
RamseySylph wrote:
Professor Dyrwydi wrote:
SmashingtonWho wrote:
RamseySylph wrote:
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@ Dyrwydi don't you mean it's less of a problem in XIV because it's not possible in combat?


I actually find having to be out-of-combat to change weapons more annoying, adding on top of that the issue with the graphics engine having to redraw my entire character... le sigh.
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#53 Nov 04 2011 at 4:28 PM Rating: Decent
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Professor Dyrwydi wrote:
RamseySylph wrote:
Professor Dyrwydi wrote:
SmashingtonWho wrote:
RamseySylph wrote:
snipped for space

snipped for space

snipped for space

snipped for space

@ Dyrwydi don't you mean it's less of a problem in XIV because it's not possible in combat?


I actually find having to be out-of-combat to change weapons more annoying, adding on top of that the issue with the graphics engine having to redraw my entire character... le sigh.


FFXI redrew the entire character as well. As much as you may find it annoying to have to put away your weapon/tool to change, you do realize why it was done that way, and what they alternative would mean right?

If we could change our equipment freely in battle, you'd be seeing characters warping in and out of existence without end during fights. Most spell effects wouldn't even fire, and you'd be expected to carry around pieces of situational gear for every spell or weapon skill you use. As a gladiator you'd swap into full STR/acc/atk gear for your weaponskills, then back into defense/HP/VIT gear after. You'd swap into MND gear for self heals, etc. etc.
#54 Nov 04 2011 at 4:49 PM Rating: Good
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RamseySylph wrote:
As a gladiator you'd swap into full STR/acc/atk gear for your weaponskills, then back into defense/HP/VIT gear after. You'd swap into MND gear for self heals, etc. etc.


Ah, FFXI: "You'd better get this million gil earring to macro on to your character for high-tier waltzes on dancer - it gives you a 5% increased healing bonus!" Yes, you always knew a player was bad if you could see any of the best situational gear on them. Smiley: lol
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#55 Nov 04 2011 at 5:03 PM Rating: Decent
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RamseySylph wrote:
If we could change our equipment freely in battle, you'd be seeing characters warping in and out of existence without end during fights. Most spell effects wouldn't even fire, and you'd be expected to carry around pieces of situational gear for every spell or weapon skill you use. As a gladiator you'd swap into full STR/acc/atk gear for your weaponskills, then back into defense/HP/VIT gear after. You'd swap into MND gear for self heals, etc. etc.
You could have just said "the itemization clusterf*ck that was FFXI would repeat itself" and have had the same impact. =P
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#56 Nov 05 2011 at 9:22 AM Rating: Decent
RamseySylph wrote:
If we could change our equipment freely in battle, you'd be seeing characters warping in and out of existence without end during fights. Most spell effects wouldn't even fire, and you'd be expected to carry around pieces of situational gear for every spell or weapon skill you use. As a gladiator you'd swap into full STR/acc/atk gear for your weaponskills, then back into defense/HP/VIT gear after. You'd swap into MND gear for self heals, etc. etc.


This has more to do with the annoyance being stuck with Wrist Flick as my only option when agro'd, and less with trying to swap DoW or DoM classes or specialized equipment during a single encounter.
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#57 Nov 05 2011 at 3:07 PM Rating: Good
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Professor Dyrwydi wrote:
This has more to do with the annoyance being stuck with Wrist Flick as my only option when agro'd, and less with trying to swap DoW or DoM classes or specialized equipment during a single encounter.


Yeah, can we talk about this for a moment?

Wrist Flick and Stone Throw?

Really, SE? Give me the tiniest amount of flavor when I play these classes... Frypan was an ability in FFXI, so why not on my Culnarian!? Maybe I'm asking too much, though. How about you just let my miner kick some sand, or even my botanist toss a handful of leaves... gosh, anything, really. I can already feel my standards falling as I attempt to meet you partway. You could have at least made it so that, when I use Stone Throw, I actually throw a stone instead of just miming the motion before some sparkles appear on the enemy. Or, hey, keep the bare-bones animation, but at least give it a different name instead of copy-pasting it across every single class. I know crafters don't fight, but do they all have to be a little limp wristed? Smiley: lol
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"... he called to himself a wizard, named Gallery, hoping by this means to escape the paying of the fifteen hundred crowns..." (Machen 15)

"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#58 Nov 05 2011 at 3:47 PM Rating: Excellent
KaneKitty wrote:
Professor Dyrwydi wrote:
This has more to do with the annoyance being stuck with Wrist Flick as my only option when agro'd, and less with trying to swap DoW or DoM classes or specialized equipment during a single encounter.


Yeah, can we talk about this for a moment?

Wrist Flick and Stone Throw?

Really, SE? Give me the tiniest amount of flavor when I play these classes... Frypan was an ability in FFXI, so why not on my Culnarian!? Maybe I'm asking too much, though. How about you just let my miner kick some sand, or even my botanist toss a handful of leaves... gosh, anything, really. I can already feel my standards falling as I attempt to meet you partway. You could have at least made it so that, when I use Stone Throw, I actually throw a stone instead of just miming the motion before some sparkles appear on the enemy. Or, hey, keep the bare-bones animation, but at least give it a different name instead of copy-pasting it across every single class. I know crafters don't fight, but do they all have to be a little limp wristed? Smiley: lol

I wanna be able to kick someones **** like the two miner Lalafell brothers from the guild. I guarentee that they could hold their own in a real fight. lol ^^

EDIT: But seriously...every class should have a basic auto-attack and maybe limited access to DoW/M skills. Maybe restrict it heavily or have a low damage cap. I would love to see Crafting and Gathering classes get some kind of unique combat skill...would definitely make things at least a lil' bit more interesting for the ones like me who really don't do much fighting, save leveling just to be able to farm stuff. heh

Edited, Nov 5th 2011 5:50pm by StateAlchemist
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#59 Nov 05 2011 at 8:55 PM Rating: Good
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Quanta wrote:
They're kinda doing it with their proposed method of building up jobs, where you're going to have quest chains specifically for each job to learn its abilities and such. They could expand that idea in such a fashion that each class has access to its own set of quests with perhaps some overlap with the others for common issues like getting animal pelts and the like. So instead of there being 3 class quests per class, you expand that to, say, 150 for each class, and maybe 30 of them are common amongst every class, leaving 120 unique quests to flesh out the background and lore of that class and the world in which they live while also providing the player with experience, some gil, and some Rare/Ex items (though not enough of them to be able to ignore the player economy). You could also tie the abilities from the guild mark vendors to these quest chains, so you'd learn your 2nd cost-0 ability from a milestone quest at 20, your 3rd cost-0 ability at 30, etc. etc.
I was more speaking in the context of gaining experience levels via quests rather than the alternative. XIV has taken a tiny step forward, but repeating leves, behests, and hamlet defenses is still not far enough from "grinding exp in one camp and killing things over and over". I agree that what's been proposed for the jobs would simulate that kind of growth, but I'd definitely need to see it in action to gauge whether it's a keeper or a dud.
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#60 Nov 05 2011 at 11:17 PM Rating: Decent
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Though I believe they mentioned you'd have to complete quests in order to unlock skills and abilities for jobs, I believe they also said level would be linked to class level. So with that in mind, I think you'll still need to level via normal channels. Though having more quests to do for EXP wouldn't hurt.

It seems like if you just level by grinding EXP on Gladiator for instance though, you'll need to go back and complete Paladin quests, otherwise your Paladin won't have many skills available.

Edited, Nov 6th 2011 1:20am by Tenouh
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#61 Nov 06 2011 at 12:38 AM Rating: Default
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Grinding quests is like grinding monsters without the exploration and experimentation. Plus, because the speed at which one skips dialogue is a direct contributor to exp. per hour, such quests are churned out severely lacking all but the most basic elements needed to call them "quests" at all. They're NPCs that give you a guildleve, in other words.

A Fields-of-Valour-like system would be superior to "quest-based" leveling, as the latter still rewards the player for defeating particular monsters, it just doesn't vomit thick paragraphs and flimsy excuses to justify walking you through a zone five monsters at a time.
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"... he called to himself a wizard, named Gallery, hoping by this means to escape the paying of the fifteen hundred crowns..." (Machen 15)

"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#62 Nov 06 2011 at 11:29 AM Rating: Decent
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RamseySylph wrote:
If we could change our equipment freely in battle, you'd be seeing characters warping in and out of existence without end during fights.


No we wouldn't, unless they specifically designed the game that way. There is no reason why the character must be redrawn every time their equipment changes.
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SE:
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We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#63 Nov 06 2011 at 12:14 PM Rating: Decent
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Hyanmen wrote:
RamseySylph wrote:
If we could change our equipment freely in battle, you'd be seeing characters warping in and out of existence without end during fights.


No we wouldn't, unless they specifically designed the game that way. There is no reason why the character must be redrawn every time their equipment changes.


The game is already designed this way... Which was my point... I didn't say that characters must be redrawn in full, but they ARE redrawn in full. Which isn't so much a problem, as long as characters only change equipment outside of fights. Catch my drift?
#64 Nov 06 2011 at 1:23 PM Rating: Decent
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RamseySylph wrote:
The game is already designed this way... Which was my point... I didn't say that characters must be redrawn in full, but they ARE redrawn in full. Which isn't so much a problem, as long as characters only change equipment outside of fights. Catch my drift?


Yes, I do.
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#65 Nov 06 2011 at 1:52 PM Rating: Excellent
A player may change their weapon or equipment while in passive mode. It doesn't matter if they are in combat, or their position on the enmity list. (You just can't change classes.)

That said: why don't you see mages doing this already? A CNJ could easily have a healign set of gear for when they are casting cures, as soon as they go to cast an enfeeble (if they so choose) why do they not switch to a PIE/Magic Accuracy set mid-combat? Or maybe now they decide to nuke so why don't they change to the appropriate weapon for that element in mid-combat, along with materia'd gear to boost that element?

All of this is possible yet you see no one doing it. Why?

You make it sound like it would be a problem if it was possible...it has BEEN possible the whole time. You have obviously just not done it, or seen it in game.

Edited, Nov 6th 2011 2:53pm by StateAlchemist
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#66 Nov 06 2011 at 2:33 PM Rating: Good
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KenJammin wrote:
Quote:
Q: Once 2.0 goes live, will gatherers and crafters be able to become primary classes that can actually fight and not just sub-classes?
A: The FINAL FANTASY that I envision is one in which the player is an adventurer who saves the world. Crafting and gathering are certainly important elements of the game too, but looking at the larger picture, battle is going to be necessary. There is no need to rush, so I would like for players to try out various classes, including battle classes and then decide on which class best fits them. Of course, this can be a crafting class if they so choose.


Something about this answer scares me... What do you mean decide?

Its just when i read the question I thought we'd get a clearer answer, bad translation maybe? why does it feel like he's hiding something? Not to mention decide is a strong word to use. I don't think any FFXI fans or even WoW fans for that matter would think that Final Fantasy's approach to class flexibility is a bad idea what-so-ever. FF3,FF5,FFT, if they're were classes you could switch between them never take that mechanic away from an FFfan...

I don't mean to fear monger but **** these interviews leave more questions and make me more nervous just make a definitive answer already, and let us complain about it now before you put 8 months of work into something were not happy with, this kind of communication lets the fan base know that at the end of the day you really don't care what we think...

We know nothing about jobs and he's been talking about it for 5 months now, these answers are starting to get aggravating and disrespectful now.

LOL To read it, it almost sounds like he's saying decide either that you want to be a DoW/DoM or a DoH/DoL cause you can only be one or the other. I don't think that's it, though.
I would assume it's directed at those players who only wanted to be DoH/DoL. That they have to decide if they want to only craft/gather (and apparently be excluded from much/all of the main story) or also have a battle class leveled up as well to take part in the main story. Sounds like they don't plan to really go out of their way to include DoH/DoL so it's up to the player to decide if they want to take part in it (also have a DoW/DoM) or not (and just do DoH/DoL).

That's my take at least.
#67 Nov 06 2011 at 2:40 PM Rating: Good
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StateAlchemist of Amestris wrote:
All of this is possible yet you see no one doing it. Why?

You make it sound like it would be a problem if it was possible...it has BEEN possible the whole time. You have obviously just not done it, or seen it in game.


Aren't stats still rather broken, though?
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"... he called to himself a wizard, named Gallery, hoping by this means to escape the paying of the fifteen hundred crowns..." (Machen 15)

"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#68 Nov 06 2011 at 3:32 PM Rating: Decent
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Did they upload the video with English subtitles yet?
#69 Nov 06 2011 at 5:18 PM Rating: Excellent
KaneKitty wrote:
Aren't stats still rather broken, though?

No.
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#70 Nov 06 2011 at 7:19 PM Rating: Excellent
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StateAlchemist of Amestris wrote:
KaneKitty wrote:
Aren't stats still rather broken, though?

No.


Well I know, at least, that the devs aren't finished tinkering with how stats will be distributed. So even if stats are "working as intended," there is little guarantee as to how they'll look a few months from now. Add to that uncertainty the fact that all sorts of equations are still largely unknown, and I think there remain good reasons why hardcore gear switching hasn't caught on. Unless it has caught on and I just didn't know it. XD


Edited, Nov 6th 2011 8:22pm by KaneKitty
____________________________
"... he called to himself a wizard, named Gallery, hoping by this means to escape the paying of the fifteen hundred crowns..." (Machen 15)

"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#71 Nov 06 2011 at 8:03 PM Rating: Decent
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Regardless, your stats are in fact nerfed whenever you change equipment while "engaged" (on any enemy's aggro list) last I checked, no?

Or is that only if you change equipment while your weapon is out? I hope it's the first one. Why you don't see people changing frequently is probably just because at this point it's really not necessary or that big of an increase considering the work. (multiple Gear swaps are pretty slow compared to FFXI) Either way, I hope that if it ever does become beneficial to swap gear in combat, and gear swaps don't cause the temporary stat nerf that they used to, they adequately nerf gear-swapping into the ground by making the punishment for doing so even more strict, or further limiting it.

I'm certainly not against being able to switch into combat mode from gathering mode, but that can be accomplished through a special system. We could have "class activation buttons" and combat class buttons could be pressed at any time, unless you are already a combat class, and on an aggro list. (Meaning as a DoH/DoL on an aggro list you could press one of these buttons.)

But making gear swaps the norm for FFXIV just to make DoH/DoL able to defend themselves more easily would be beyond stupid. If they really want to appease those of you who get a hard-on thinking about gear designed for ultra-specific tasks (as opposed to gear designed for different types of play, which is what they should be trying to achieve) they can always create a system that captures the essence of gear swapping without actually having gear swapping.

Just a out-of-my-*** type example would be having specialized gear broken down via the materia-system and then assigned to various "sets" that are swapped in and out automatically during spells and abilities by ability type.

But honestly, why anyone wants to have their stats fluctuating dramatically from skill to skills is really beyond me. I think what those who support gear swapping really enjoyed was the fact that so many different pieces of equipment got use and weren't immediately replaced. This can definitely be accomplished by having armor use be geared towards different (broad) situations.
#72 Nov 06 2011 at 8:06 PM Rating: Decent
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StateAlchemist of Amestris wrote:
That said: why don't you see mages doing this already? A CNJ could easily have a healign set of gear for when they are casting cures, as soon as they go to cast an enfeeble (if they so choose) why do they not switch to a PIE/Magic Accuracy set mid-combat? Or maybe now they decide to nuke so why don't they change to the appropriate weapon for that element in mid-combat, along with materia'd gear to boost that element?

All of this is possible yet you see no one doing it. Why?

You make it sound like it would be a problem if it was possible...it has BEEN possible the whole time. You have obviously just not done it, or seen it in game.
Once content starts forcing people to truly min-max, it may pick up. I'd rather not see that happen again, as it made playing any class in a party setting in FFXI unnecessarily tedious. And at least for me, there's also the fact that I hated seeing characters blink in and out every five seconds, as it looked stupid and hindered my lolRP immersion.
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#73 Nov 06 2011 at 9:31 PM Rating: Excellent
RamseySylph wrote:
Regardless, your stats are in fact nerfed whenever you change equipment while "engaged" (on any enemy's aggro list) last I checked, no?


Tried it outside Ul'dah cast an enfeebling spell on a mob changed weapon, changed equipment. No status effect.
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#74 Nov 07 2011 at 12:25 AM Rating: Decent
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StateAlchemist of Amestris wrote:
RamseySylph wrote:
Regardless, your stats are in fact nerfed whenever you change equipment while "engaged" (on any enemy's aggro list) last I checked, no?


Tried it outside Ul'dah cast an enfeebling spell on a mob changed weapon, changed equipment. No status effect.


Now to pray to the FFXIV gods that someone has the foresight and common sense to fix that by at least 2.0.
#75 Nov 07 2011 at 3:21 AM Rating: Decent
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RamseySylph wrote:
Now to pray to the FFXIV gods that someone has the foresight and common sense to fix that by at least 2.0.
Could post about it on the o'boards, at least to get the CMs and Yoshida to read it. Would be a nice break from the people whining about jump.
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#76 Nov 07 2011 at 4:02 AM Rating: Decent
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RamseySylph wrote:
But honestly, why anyone wants to have their stats fluctuating dramatically from skill to skills is really beyond me. I think what those who support gear swapping really enjoyed was the fact that so many different pieces of equipment got use and weren't immediately replaced. This can definitely be accomplished by having armor use be geared towards different (broad) situations.


I doubt it. I mean, you could invest time in obtaining a tanking build or a chi blast build as a Monk, but honestly speaking every item not designed for maximizing DoT was and is inferior. That's what you were after. Specific items designed to help other aspects of the job like Chakra potency were important, but only because it didn't hurt your DoT to use them.

I am very doubtful that would be realistic. Especially when Jobs have a clear role, possibly even more so than in XI where you could in fact have anyone tank with /nin as long as they managed to deal enough damage.

The fact that they would not only have to design different situations and equipment for them, but also make actual use of them regularly for it to be worthwhile to go after said equipment is what makes it very difficult to do, in a game with specific job roles. Classes are immediately inferior when it comes to any harder content, because you can outweigh single class diversity with numbers.

I wouldn't put much weight in conceptual theory. Many things are possible in theory, hardly as many work in practice. Making us go after specific items (or whatever you choose them to be) designed for specific tasks is much more guaranteed to bring good results. Especially considering the concept was already realized in FFXI, not perfectly but enough to understand what needs to be done to make it better. Going for this hypothetical "broad situations" concept is risky and once again hard if not impossible to balance.

Whether it be class or role balance you can always fall back to the fact that it's possible in theory. But that doesn't help the people actually designing these things. "Oh you just have to be good enough" really is not much of an argument, when we have already come across clear limitations that are not simply bypassed by being more competent.

Edited, Nov 7th 2011 1:06pm by Hyanmen
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#77 Nov 07 2011 at 10:02 AM Rating: Decent
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Hyanmen wrote:
RamseySylph wrote:
But honestly, why anyone wants to have their stats fluctuating dramatically from skill to skills is really beyond me. I think what those who support gear swapping really enjoyed was the fact that so many different pieces of equipment got use and weren't immediately replaced. This can definitely be accomplished by having armor use be geared towards different (broad) situations.


I doubt it. I mean, you could invest time in obtaining a tanking build or a chi blast build as a Monk, but honestly speaking every item not designed for maximizing DoT was and is inferior. That's what you were after. Specific items designed to help other aspects of the job like Chakra potency were important, but only because it didn't hurt your DoT to use them.

I am very doubtful that would be realistic. Especially when Jobs have a clear role, possibly even more so than in XI where you could in fact have anyone tank with /nin as long as they managed to deal enough damage.

The fact that they would not only have to design different situations and equipment for them, but also make actual use of them regularly for it to be worthwhile to go after said equipment is what makes it very difficult to do, in a game with specific job roles. Classes are immediately inferior when it comes to any harder content, because you can outweigh single class diversity with numbers.

I wouldn't put much weight in conceptual theory. Many things are possible in theory, hardly as many work in practice. Making us go after specific items (or whatever you choose them to be) designed for specific tasks is much more guaranteed to bring good results. Especially considering the concept was already realized in FFXI, not perfectly but enough to understand what needs to be done to make it better. Going for this hypothetical "broad situations" concept is risky and once again hard if not impossible to balance.

Whether it be class or role balance you can always fall back to the fact that it's possible in theory. But that doesn't help the people actually designing these things. "Oh you just have to be good enough" really is not much of an argument, when we have already come across clear limitations that are not simply bypassed by being more competent.

Edited, Nov 7th 2011 1:06pm by Hyanmen


You're making it sound more difficult than it is. Other games accomplish similar systems where equipment are useful for different types of situations, games like Monster Hunter for instance. Obviously, if we're talking about end-game performance out of a single class, that's one role, and that's going to have its own pinnacle set of gear. And unless a job can perform more than one role in end game, that's going to be it within that context.

Situations where certain types of resistances are required are probably the small exception to this rule. Beyond that though, you could have gear that's more focused on soloing, low-mans, pvp, etc. etc. Obviously these types of gear would be obtained via different channels. "Balance is difficult in practice" is hardly an excuse. That's what designers are paid for, after all.
#78 Nov 07 2011 at 10:33 AM Rating: Default
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You're making it sound more difficult than it is. Other games accomplish similar systems where equipment are useful for different types of situations, games like Monster Hunter for instance.


Whether it be Monster Hunter or Dark Souls, every game will have the optimal builds and countless inferior builds. This is an MMO, where only build is the optimal build, and a great number of classes exist to be balanced both between each other and within.

Quote:
"Balance is difficult in practice" is hardly an excuse. That's what designers are paid for, after all.


That's all you've got.

"Oh you just have to be good enough" really is not much of an argument, when we have already come across clear limitations that are not simply bypassed by being more competent.

You can pay them whatever you want, humans have limitations and those limitations have been already reached. Maybe there is an Einstein of game design somewhere out there in India or China but even he can't do anything without similar talent assisting him. You can hire more designers but then the management of it all becomes a problem. You simply do not get better results by throwing infinite money at your employee's or your HR to find talent.
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#79 Nov 07 2011 at 10:34 AM Rating: Good
To accomplish what you are describing you would need an Equipment Macro to change during battle. The equip macro goes so slow I don't see how the minimal boost to some spell or ability is going to make up for the time lost.

Maybe for wands, like you suggested before. Even then, probably best to just cast that spell one more time then mess with a equipment changes. I hope that's how it stays.
#80 Nov 07 2011 at 12:42 PM Rating: Good
SmashingtonWho wrote:
To accomplish what you are describing you would need an Equipment Macro to change during battle. The equip macro goes so slow I don't see how the minimal boost to some spell or ability is going to make up for the time lost.

Maybe for wands, like you suggested before. Even then, probably best to just cast that spell one more time then mess with a equipment changes. I hope that's how it stays.


Agreed - my only wish is for the graphics system to develop past the point that where it is necessary to redraw the entire character just because of equipment changes.
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#81 Nov 07 2011 at 2:05 PM Rating: Decent
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Hyanmen wrote:
Stuff.


Nothing that you said actually refuted my point. My point is that you can accomplish a system where various overall options exist for players. I even stated, clearly might I add, that within those situational boundaries there would be optimal pieces still. So, for instance, it wouldn't really change the necessary itemization of end-game gear within a single role. There's still going to be a "best in slot" piece for a raid tank body, hand, etc. But those players may want to use different equipment when they're out soloing, or something like that.

I didn't say the system was better, but it does provide more variety. And it's certainly not impossible to do, nor does it require any sort of savant-like designers to implement. To be completely honest with you, the bottleneck would have a lot more to do with asset creation than design to begin with. You often make the argument "it's hard, so there's no reason to try." News flash, "it's hard" is not a reason not to try anything worth doing.

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