Forum Settings
       
This Forum is Read Only

Ifrit Drops Follow

#1 Nov 03 2011 at 8:09 AM Rating: Good
Avatar
**
569 posts
Quote:
#XIVLive Q:Are you planning on adjusting the Ifrit reward distribution? I’ve killed him 45 times... I’m starting to lose motivation now.
A: Yes, especially with regards to the Primal battles. We’re considering a system along the lines of need or greed. In the mean time, I’m thinking about other solutions to help people who tried many times, too. Please wait a bit and we’ll give you some more details.


Can some one explain what exactly Yoshi-p is saying here "need or greed"...? would it be easier to just make rewards same as XI.. were you kill Primal go back to NPC and pick a reward? I am 0/10 on Ifrit and know people 0/50, i really think something need to be done, soon. And yeas i am aware some people got 7/7 weapons with in 20-30 fights sadly not every one is that lucky.


Edited, Nov 4th 2011 4:52pm by TwiddleDee
____________________________
99th paper cut, and the grain of salt.
#2 Nov 03 2011 at 8:33 AM Rating: Excellent
Sage
**
447 posts
Need or Greed is WoW's loot system.

The item drops for the entire party to "roll" a random number from 1-100.

You pick either "need" (you actually need the item) or "greed" (you don't need it, but want it for profit/pimp status/etc.). Picking one or the other is honor system - if you roll "need" but don't need it, you will look like an ****, be booted from your shell, or something similar.

The highest number rolled wins, but need rolls take priority over greed rolls.

If we both pick greed, I roll 100, and you roll 99, I win and get the item.
If I pick greed and roll 100, but you pick need and roll 1, you get the item.
If we both pick need, I roll 100, and you roll 99, I win and get the item.
____________________________
Djigga, please. Highland Hyurs can't jump.

#3 Nov 03 2011 at 10:56 AM Rating: Good
**
924 posts
If they are going to do this, I really hope they put a requirement of you actually having that class at least within ~5 levels below the actual item or something.

I personally like the "everyone gets a chest" type drop system. Yeah, you get it more than once; not really a big deal imho.

Someone mentioned in another post getting items like we did in XI. You pick gil, item, or summon. That would be nice, make the drop rate on the primals the same, but if you get a "req item" drop from the chest, you can than pick your weapon.
____________________________
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/story.html?story=18309
Quote:
Like Final Fantasy XI, the game specs will be extremely high for the time, but in about 5 years, an average machine can run it on max settings with little to no issues. Tanaka also expressed interest in making a benchmark program available.

FilthMcNasty wrote:
I endorse this thread.
#4 Nov 03 2011 at 11:03 AM Rating: Excellent
Sage
*
221 posts
Everyone should get their own chest - I think this is good. However, the chest should have a random chance of awarding the player a special "token" or "currency" which is untradeable. These tokens could then be traded to an NPC for items, including weapons.

IMO I think this would be the best and most fair system, and much less rage-inducing then what's in place currently.
____________________________

#5 Nov 03 2011 at 11:10 AM Rating: Excellent
Can you imagine doing the fight trying to get one weapon...after 100+ tries you end up with the 6 you don't want but still missing the one you do? Heh. I couldn't imagine the frustration...
____________________________
Humankind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something of equal value must be lost.
Data Center: Primal; Server: Ultros; Free Company: The Kraken Club; Grand Company: The Maelstrom; Chocobo: Kweh
#6 Nov 03 2011 at 11:13 AM Rating: Decent
**
924 posts
StateAlchemist of Amestris wrote:
Can you imagine doing the fight trying to get one weapon...after 100+ tries you end up with the 6 you don't want but still missing the one you do? Heh. I couldn't imagine the frustration...


I have 2 stacks of G5 dark matter to attest to it. Still only have harpoon and blade, both of which are ~50 lol
____________________________
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/story.html?story=18309
Quote:
Like Final Fantasy XI, the game specs will be extremely high for the time, but in about 5 years, an average machine can run it on max settings with little to no issues. Tanaka also expressed interest in making a benchmark program available.

FilthMcNasty wrote:
I endorse this thread.
#7 Nov 03 2011 at 1:48 PM Rating: Decent
****
4,149 posts
XIVLive wrote:
#XIVLive Q:Are you planning on adjusting the Ifrit reward distribution? I’ve killed him 45 times... I’m starting to lose motivation now.
A: Yes, especially with regards to the Primal battles. We’re considering a system along the lines of need or greed. In the mean time, I’m thinking about other solutions to help people who tried many times, too. Please wait a bit and we’ll give you some more details.


Translation:

XIVLive: I needs mah epix /QQ

Tanaka Jr: Yes, we are making it more like WoW. In the meantime, shut the @#%^ up and be happy you actually have something to do.

Edited, Nov 3rd 2011 3:48pm by FilthMcNasty
____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#8 Nov 03 2011 at 1:54 PM Rating: Decent
volta1 wrote:
Need or Greed is WoW's loot system.

The item drops for the entire party to "roll" a random number from 1-100.

You pick either "need" (you actually need the item) or "greed" (you don't need it, but want it for profit/pimp status/etc.). Picking one or the other is honor system - if you roll "need" but don't need it, you will look like an ****, be booted from your shell, or something similar.

The highest number rolled wins, but need rolls take priority over greed rolls.

If we both pick greed, I roll 100, and you roll 99, I win and get the item.
If I pick greed and roll 100, but you pick need and roll 1, you get the item.
If we both pick need, I roll 100, and you roll 99, I win and get the item.


Need/Greed is far from being a WoW loot system - We dealt with this system in ShadowBane long before WoW began development, and EverQuest before that (sorry, tired of the WoW references - understandable since this is the only MMO most people have any experience with). Other than that, you description of the process is very accurate.

The key reason for considering a loot system like this is that the current system of true randomness makes no sense. Of course if the items that dropped were trade-able for a time period following receipt (to others who worked with you to achieve the kill) that would also fix the problem (I believe this system is a WoW invention, but would be happy to be corrected on that). Naturally as long as there is loot dropping there will be complaints about the distribution system, regardless of DKP, Need/Greed, random or loot master.

Final note - remember that Primal Fights will be going away after 2.0, so the development team is using this as an opportunity to explore loot distribution systems that work before the big re-release. Keep that feed-back coming, just please leave WoW out of it. WoW is lame because it's geared to reward lazy players, not because it's mechanics suck.
____________________________
Success is a journey, not a destination - Failure is a destination achieved by ending the journey.
#9 Nov 03 2011 at 2:13 PM Rating: Good
****
4,149 posts
Professor Dyrwydi wrote:
Keep that feed-back coming, just please leave WoW out of it. WoW is lame because it's geared to reward lazy players, not because it's mechanics suck.


Haters gonna hate?

WoW isn't geared toward rewarding lazy players. It's geared toward allowing casual players a chance at progression in endgame. If you want gear in WoW, and I don't mean farming points for the bus stop knock-off epics even though grind should count for something(/point XI), you still need to work at it.
____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#10 Nov 03 2011 at 2:20 PM Rating: Default
I don't deny that getting epics is nice, but if you aren't in a full progression guild just wait a month or two and you'll have access to the gear they're wearing now. Compared to XI where just because AF2 has been released does not mean that getting AF1 was much easier. I don't "hate" on WoW, it's just not the game for me, despite only being a "casual," I still missed the days when getting epic gear required careful attention to detail and hard work in an epic setting, not just by clearing a downgraded raid with 4 random people for an hour a night and being "Epic" in a week, two at the most.
____________________________
Success is a journey, not a destination - Failure is a destination achieved by ending the journey.
#11 Nov 03 2011 at 3:14 PM Rating: Good
****
4,149 posts
Professor Dyrwydi wrote:
I don't deny that getting epics is nice, but if you aren't in a full progression guild just wait a month or two and you'll have access to the gear they're wearing now.

It isn't the same gear. You can use points that you have to grind out to get a few pieces for a bonus, but it isn't the same. For the sake of comparison, it's the difference between NQ and HQ gear. Which leads to the next point...

Professor Dyrwydi wrote:
I don't "hate" on WoW, it's just not the game for me, despite only being a "casual," I still missed the days when getting epic gear required careful attention to detail and hard work in an epic setting, not just by clearing a downgraded raid with 4 random people for an hour a night and being "Epic" in a week, two at the most.


I see what you are getting at. You need to substitute the word 'heroic' in for just epic. Blizz made some purple sh*t for casuals so they could feel leet. The gap is narrow between greens and blues now, but it is about the same is the gap from blues to lower tier epics.

It is the heroic gear that requires the careful attention, execution and dedication. It is far superior gear and the players who wear it all had to work hard to earn it. Nothing worth a **** comes from 5 man instances. You don't like it and that's fair. I'm not trying to convert you or anyone else, but the challenge is still there for those who want it.

Edited, Nov 3rd 2011 5:15pm by FilthMcNasty
____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#12 Nov 03 2011 at 3:20 PM Rating: Decent
FilthMcNasty wrote:
snipped for space -
You don't like it and that's fair. I'm not trying to convert you or anyone else, but the challenge is still there for those who want it. It's more than just the same looking gear with a different color palette. It is far superior gear and the players who wear it all had to work hard to earn it.


Agreed, just trying to establish where I am coming from. "Hater" has a connotation of being blind and generally thoughtless disregard for something. WoW has it's draws, and it's following, and I fault no-one for enjoying the game. On the other-hand, I am also not a "FFXIV Fanboi" which would be equally blind and thoughtless as a "hater." - Now that that is out of the way...

Edited, Nov 3rd 2011 5:21pm by Dyrwydi
____________________________
Success is a journey, not a destination - Failure is a destination achieved by ending the journey.
#13 Nov 03 2011 at 3:22 PM Rating: Default
Scholar
Avatar
***
1,339 posts
Professor Dyrwydi wrote:
I don't deny that getting epics is nice, but if you aren't in a full progression guild just wait a month or two and you'll have access to the gear they're wearing now. Compared to XI where just because AF2 has been released does not mean that getting AF1 was much easier. I don't "hate" on WoW, it's just not the game for me, despite only being a "casual," I still missed the days when getting epic gear required careful attention to detail and hard work in an epic setting, not just by clearing a downgraded raid with 4 random people for an hour a night and being "Epic" in a week, two at the most.


People that care about what color text is on their gear compared to what others get are sad and pathetic.
#14 Nov 03 2011 at 8:55 PM Rating: Excellent
****
7,106 posts
Quote:
People that care about what color text is on their gear compared to what others get are sad and pathetic.

"I bet those grapes were sour, anyway."
#15 Nov 04 2011 at 9:34 AM Rating: Decent
Viertel wrote:
Professor Dyrwydi wrote:
I don't deny that getting epics is nice, but if you aren't in a full progression guild just wait a month or two and you'll have access to the gear they're wearing now. Compared to XI where just because AF2 has been released does not mean that getting AF1 was much easier. I don't "hate" on WoW, it's just not the game for me, despite only being a "casual," I still missed the days when getting epic gear required careful attention to detail and hard work in an epic setting, not just by clearing a downgraded raid with 4 random people for an hour a night and being "Epic" in a week, two at the most.


People that care about what color text is on their gear compared to what others get are sad and pathetic.


Easy to say, and actually not far off from the truth, but I think you have missed a point since the "color" of that text in a large part dictates which parts of the game you are allowed (by game mechanics along) to participate in. Instead of "color" we could be discussing gear score numbers, or break it down further to stat figures. Either way the argument could be made that even having any discussion about digital "gear" is sad and pathetic. The point of my above comments was not that I felt cheated or slighted in any way, rather that I felt the effort to reward ratios were skewed towards the true casual player, whereas I prefer more of a challenge. FFXIV gives me that challenge, which is why I play XIV and not WoW. Others may prefer games that skew differently than me, and that is fine. This is not a stab at anyone or either system.
____________________________
Success is a journey, not a destination - Failure is a destination achieved by ending the journey.
#16 Nov 04 2011 at 10:30 AM Rating: Good
Avatar
**
569 posts
WoW vs XIV rewards. In wow the more you do the more yo get, where as in XI/XIV before and after every reward there's a plateau where you may get nothing for a long window of time. In wow i could count the days which i needed for full epic raid armor. While in XI i lost track of time in between one reward and the next, 2 years for a sea neck, 3 for black belt, over 15 months for AF2, exe.....

Screenshot




Edited, Nov 4th 2011 12:31pm by TwiddleDee
____________________________
99th paper cut, and the grain of salt.
#17 Nov 04 2011 at 10:46 AM Rating: Good
****
4,149 posts
Professor Dyrwydi wrote:
The point of my above comments was not that I felt cheated or slighted in any way, rather that I felt the effort to reward ratios were skewed towards the true casual player, whereas I prefer more of a challenge. FFXIV gives me that challenge, which is why I play XIV and not WoW. Others may prefer games that skew differently than me, and that is fine. This is not a stab at anyone or either system.


Spot on, but the challenge is there. XI/XIV you grind the same mob repetitively where in WoW you grind through 5 mans to progress to 10 mans to progress to heroic 10/25 man raids. The key difference is there is more opportunity in WoW. They made endgame accessible to casuals by adjusting gear to scale on a curve and not plateaus like Twiddle said.

Easy to get gear from quests to progress through 5 mans which reward you with slightly better gear to progress through heroic 5 mans which grant increasingly better rewards to compete in normal 10/25 man raids that increase in challenge and reward through heroics. That's just how they intended the model to work.

You can go from the challenge of waiting 15 minutes in a queue to run a fairly easy dungeon to hardcore progression which might have you bashing your head against the same boss for hours, days or even weeks in some cases.


Edited, Nov 4th 2011 12:48pm by FilthMcNasty
____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#18 Nov 04 2011 at 10:56 AM Rating: Excellent
TwiddleDee wrote:
WoW vs XIV rewards. In wow the more you do the more yo get, where as in XI/XIV before and after every reward there's a plateau where you may get nothing for a long window of time. In wow i could count the days which i needed for full epic raid armor. While in XI i lost track of time in between one reward and the next, 2 years for a sea neck, 3 for black belt, over 15 months for AF2, exe.....

Screenshot




Edited, Nov 4th 2011 12:31pm by TwiddleDee

Now compare how long that gear remained viable before it was 'outdated' compared to WoW.
____________________________
Humankind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something of equal value must be lost.
Data Center: Primal; Server: Ultros; Free Company: The Kraken Club; Grand Company: The Maelstrom; Chocobo: Kweh
#19 Nov 04 2011 at 11:00 AM Rating: Decent
Avatar
**
569 posts
StateAlchemist of Amestris wrote:
TwiddleDee wrote:
WoW vs XIV rewards. In wow the more you do the more yo get, where as in XI/XIV before and after every reward there's a plateau where you may get nothing for a long window of time. In wow i could count the days which i needed for full epic raid armor. While in XI i lost track of time in between one reward and the next, 2 years for a sea neck, 3 for black belt, over 15 months for AF2, exe.....

Screenshot




Edited, Nov 4th 2011 12:31pm by TwiddleDee

Now compare how long that gear remained viable before it was 'outdated' compared to WoW.


My sea torque and BB are still top of the line now as they were 3 years back. ^.^b

PS: am on the side of FFXIV, i hate WoW.

That's were the FF challenge is you don't have the stare case to get from fresh 85 armor to epic like in wow. In FF you use the stuff you hit cap with until at some point in the future you can get better. However like i stated above some armors even after 6+ years are still best for the slot, were as wow items go from epic to trash nearly over night.


Edited, Nov 4th 2011 1:09pm by TwiddleDee
____________________________
99th paper cut, and the grain of salt.
#20 Nov 04 2011 at 11:34 AM Rating: Excellent
TwiddleDee wrote:
My sea torque and BB are still top of the line now as they were 3 years back. ^.^b

PS: am on the side of FFXIV, i hate WoW.

That's were the FF challenge is you don't have the stare case to get from fresh 85 armor to epic like in wow. In FF you use the stuff you hit cap with until at some point in the future you can get better. However like i stated above some armors even after 6+ years are still best for the slot, were as wow items go from epic to trash nearly over night.

^
____________________________
Humankind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something of equal value must be lost.
Data Center: Primal; Server: Ultros; Free Company: The Kraken Club; Grand Company: The Maelstrom; Chocobo: Kweh
#21 Nov 04 2011 at 11:35 AM Rating: Excellent
TwiddleDee wrote:
StateAlchemist of Amestris wrote:
TwiddleDee wrote:
snipped for space

snipped for space


My sea torque and BB are still top of the line now as they were 3 years back. ^.^b

PS: am on the side of FFXIV, i hate WoW.

That's were the FF challenge is you don't have the stare case to get from fresh 85 armor to epic like in wow. In FF you use the stuff you hit cap with until at some point in the future you can get better. However like i stated above some armors even after 6+ years are still best for the slot, were as wow items go from epic to trash nearly over night.


Edited, Nov 4th 2011 1:09pm by TwiddleDee


The other major difference to me is that the difference between a good player in WoW, or many similar games, versus FFXI or XIV. In gear focused games the difference between a good player and an average player is noticeable only when they are wearing comparable gear. If the better player is even slightly under then the difference is much more negligible. In FF games the first consideration is quality of player over gear, therefore things like reputation and performance are more highly valued. I'm not saying that gear has no value, rather that the value is more muted in FF than in WoW or the like. I do not hate WoW-like games (AoC, Rift, etc), rather I prefer the performance based games like FFXI and XIV to the gear based systems of the other games (and yes, I've played the others, to cap, in multiple classes and enjoyed raiding for a time).
____________________________
Success is a journey, not a destination - Failure is a destination achieved by ending the journey.
#22 Nov 04 2011 at 12:38 PM Rating: Default
Avatar
**
569 posts
Professor Dyrwydi wrote:

The other major difference to me is that the difference between a good player in WoW, or many similar games, versus FFXI or XIV. In gear focused games the difference between a good player and an average player is noticeable only when they are wearing comparable gear. If the better player is even slightly under then the difference is much more negligible. In FF games the first consideration is quality of player over gear, therefore things like reputation and performance are more highly valued. I'm not saying that gear has no value, rather that the value is more muted in FF than in WoW or the like. I do not hate WoW-like games (AoC, Rift, etc), rather I prefer the performance based games like FFXI and XIV to the gear based systems of the other games (and yes, I've played the others, to cap, in multiple classes and enjoyed raiding for a time).


Very true, in wow/rift/etc when you strip down your char no armor just weapon you are automatically 90% weaker. My WoW PLD (pre cata.) had some 30kish hp and was invincible to a point with armor on, armor off 5k hp and the slightest breeze nearly killed ya. In XI i did salvage with my weapon and maybe (MAYBE) belt and neck and I was 20% weaker if even. And my XI armor was way above average.
____________________________
99th paper cut, and the grain of salt.
#23 Nov 04 2011 at 4:14 PM Rating: Good
Avatar
**
588 posts
Definitely something to be said for completing a long storyline of quests to get your Rajas Ring or other gear. The experience was worth it even if it was **** getting there.
____________________________



#24 Nov 04 2011 at 4:36 PM Rating: Excellent
Scholar
28 posts
StateAlchemist of Amestris wrote:
Can you imagine doing the fight trying to get one weapon...after 100+ tries you end up with the 6 you don't want but still missing the one you do? Heh. I couldn't imagine the frustration...


60 kills and counting, got 1 weapon which I cannot use (and probably I will never level that class to 50) so yeah I fear soon your example will be my reality.
Meanwhile a friend of mine got the weapon I want 3 times, which she can't even use...

Awful loot system is awful and by this point even WoWs loot system looks amazing in comparison.
#25 Nov 04 2011 at 4:56 PM Rating: Good
****
4,149 posts
StateAlchemist of Amestris wrote:
Now compare how long that gear remained viable before it was 'outdated' compared to WoW.


Obvious scaling is obvious.

In XI you have a level 33 neck piece that people still wear at 95 because +10 is meaningful. Stats are stagnant. You have a 1% chance to craft an item that gives you +1 to all of the stats on that item.

In WoW a level 33 item gives +4 to a stat where an item at cap gives +400. There is a much bigger spread on stats so gear needs to be updated regularly. No-brainer.

TwiddleDee wrote:
That's were the FF challenge is you don't have the stare case to get from fresh 85 armor to epic like in wow.


Yeah, nothing quite compares to the 'challenge' of horrible drop rates and RNG. Really?

Dyrwydi wrote:
The other major difference to me is that the difference between a good player in WoW, or many similar games, versus FFXI or XIV. In gear focused games the difference between a good player and an average player is noticeable only when they are wearing comparable gear. If the better player is even slightly under then the difference is much more negligible.


In WoW your gear is a measure of your potential just like it is in XI. Skill will only take you so far when you're naked. Unless you are Halle Berry, then you get a little further :D

On a serious note, it's the same scaling issue. XI is less 'gear focused' as you say because the difference between NQ and HQ **** is a whopping +1 to the stats.

All games are gear AND performance based. I don't know anyone in any game who's gear allows them to stand in fire. You guys think about this stuff before you post it? C'mon now...







____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#26 Nov 04 2011 at 6:20 PM Rating: Decent
6 posts
FilthMcNasty wrote:
I don't know anyone in any game who's gear allows them to stand in fire.


everquest

calling it 5% performance and 95% gear would be pretty fair.
#27 Nov 05 2011 at 9:34 AM Rating: Default
FilthMcNasty wrote:
In WoW your gear is a measure of your potential just like it is in XI. Skill will only take you so far when you're naked. Unless you are Halle Berry, then you get a little further :D

On a serious note, it's the same scaling issue. XI is less 'gear focused' as you say because the difference between NQ and HQ sh*t is a whopping +1 to the stats.

All games are gear AND performance based. I don't know anyone in any game who's gear allows them to stand in fire.


I think you missed the point about gear-based and player-based progression systems. At no point does the game, in XI, tell you that you cannot enter an area because your gear level is to low. We're not talking about other players passing judgement on your gear, the game itself.

Gear in XI was an indicator of your experience, not your potential - in WoW this is reversed, you could never judge the quality of the player simply by looking at gear or watching them tagging a practice dummy.

All games requires gear and performance, but their systems generally lean one way or another - consider your response to StateAlchemist:

FilthMcNasty wrote:
In XI you have a level 33 neck piece that people still wear at 95 because +10 is meaningful. Stats are stagnant. You have a 1% chance to craft an item that gives you +1 to all of the stats on that item.

In WoW a level 33 item gives +4 to a stat where an item at cap gives +400. There is a much bigger spread on stats so gear needs to be updated regularly. No-brainer.


If this does not illustrate the stark difference between gear and performance based games, I don't know what would, and it's your words, not mine. Which brings to to one final quote:

FilthMcNasty wrote:
You guys think about this stuff before you post it? C'mon now...


My question exactly.
____________________________
Success is a journey, not a destination - Failure is a destination achieved by ending the journey.
#28 Nov 05 2011 at 12:32 PM Rating: Decent
****
4,149 posts
Professor Dyrwydi wrote:
I think you missed the point about gear-based and player-based progression systems. At no point does the game, in XI, tell you that you cannot enter an area because your gear level is to low. We're not talking about other players passing judgement on your gear, the game itself.


The reason WoW excludes players based on gear is that it is about as close as you can get to a measurement of experience and potential(PvP gear being the exception). If you had the required gear level then it was just assumed that you had completed enough content that you were ready to progress. I disagree that it wasn't about players passing judgement because that was a major reason why it was there. No one wanted to queue up with people who, regardless of their skill, didn't have the experience or the potential to complete the content. No one wants to carry other people.

XI doesn't follow any progression so it doesn't make sense to compare the two in that sense, but undergeared people in exp groups had the same effect. Your healer is out of mp because your tank is undergeared and your DD can keep up their kill speed because they're pulling hate. It definitely affects other people.

Quote:
If this does not illustrate the stark difference between gear and performance based games, I don't know what would, and it's your words, not mine.


The comment is in response to how long gear remains viable between the two games. XI until recently was set to remain at the 75 cap forever. They created gear with this in mind and didn't adjust the stats when they recently started increasing the cap again.

WoW on the other hand has increased it's cap several times in the last several years. Each time they have they adjusted not only the stats on gear, but how they affect the character. My comment is just to contrast the scaling on gear and why older gear in XI is still viable whereas old gear in WoW is not.

Gear and skill are just as important in WoW as they are in XI. For some reason it seems like you are trying to discredit WoW as being all about gear and not skill or that somehow it takes more skill to play XI.







____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#29 Nov 05 2011 at 2:19 PM Rating: Decent
FilthMcNasty wrote:
XI until recently was set to remain at the 75 cap forever. They created gear with this in mind and didn't adjust the stats when they recently started increasing the cap again.

WoW on the other hand has increased it's cap several times in the last several years. Each time they have they adjusted not only the stats on gear, but how they affect the character. My comment is just to contrast the scaling on gear and why older gear in XI is still viable whereas old gear in WoW is not.


We are not talking about credit / discredit, we are talking about the differences in game design. The point boils down to FFXI is Performance > Gear, and FFXIV follow in it's footsteps, while WoW is Gear > Performance. Both are needed, it's just a matter of which is valued and played towards between the two game designs. All of this from a discussion on how bad the Ifrit loot system is, another example that FFXIV is more focused on whether or not players have skill than what gear they are wearing.

FilthMcNasty wrote:
Gear and skill are just as important in WoW as they are in XI. For some reason it seems like you are trying to discredit WoW as being all about gear and not skill or that somehow it takes more skill to play XI.


You appear to be "reading between lines" that are not there. WoW rewards gear first, skill second - XI rewards skill first, gear second. I am not saying that XI takes more skill than WoW, but I would point out that if XI gear boosted player stats by 500% of the character's base stats then the game would be a whole lot easier. The math is not with you on this topic, FilthMcNasty.
____________________________
Success is a journey, not a destination - Failure is a destination achieved by ending the journey.
#30 Nov 05 2011 at 7:05 PM Rating: Decent
****
4,149 posts
Dyrwydi wrote:
WoW rewards gear first, skill second - XI rewards skill first, gear second. I am not saying that XI takes more skill than WoW


What does that even mean? Rewards gear or rewards skill.

Dyrwydi wrote:
I would point out that if XI gear boosted player stats by 500% of the character's base stats then the game would be a whole lot easier. The math is not with you on this topic, FilthMcNasty.



Blizzard's design focuses on progression. You progress through the content as it is released and when you clear it more content patches come out to keep you busy until the next expansion. They realize that old content gets old and they move on. Enough new content is added that the game isn't really affected by it.

I would point out that SE isn't in a position to scale their gear and stats because they never planned on increasing the cap to begin with. They basically designed themselves into a corner in XI. The level cap was set at 75 for nearly a decade and it made the game stagnant. They could have made gear scale, but they weren't willing to add enough new content to support it.

Nothing at all to do with math.


____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#31 Nov 05 2011 at 10:09 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
Avatar
***
1,339 posts
Professor Dyrwydi wrote:
Viertel wrote:
People that care about what color text is on their gear compared to what others get are sad and pathetic.
Easy to say, and actually not far off from the truth, but I think you have missed a point since the "color" of that text in a large part dictates which parts of the game you are allowed (by game mechanics along) to participate in.


Actually, no it doesn't; only if you wish to use a group finder tool in the game. Forming your own natural party doesn't stop you from going out to the instance "oldskool" style and still doing it.

And that wasn't my point anyway. I simply despise people that rely solely on what color an item a person is wearing to determine worth as a player versus what the player actually can do/has built with their gear; we get enough of that in life as it is in relations to money, cars, clothes, and looks.

Professor Dyrwydi wrote:
XI doesn't follow any progression so it doesn't make sense to compare the two in that sense, but undergeared people in exp groups had the same effect. Your healer is out of mp because your tank is undergeared and your DD can keep up their kill speed because they're pulling hate. It definitely affects other people.


To be honest, the majority of problems with FFXI tanks ended up being because the threat system is terrible and has never been changed from its archaic roots. In an EXP party the tank's gear has *nothing* to do with the DD pulling hate simply because of how horribly designed the CE/VE mechanics are: it was neigh impossible to outpace the DD while leveling because not only was the gear not available but the group composition wasn't designed to support a full TE tank. I don't have enough fingers to count on my hand the number of friends I've had over the course of FFXI that ended up hating tanking or healing (or both) simply due to how static and stagnant the threat system was back in pre-ToAU party play. It's probably the most non-intuitive system I've ever seen and considering how non-intuitive a lot of FFXI was (still is) that's saying something.

Professor Dyrwydi wrote:
You appear to be "reading between lines" that are not there. WoW rewards gear first, skill second - XI rewards skill first, gear second. I am not saying that XI takes more skill than WoW, but I would point out that if XI gear boosted player stats by 500% of the character's base stats then the game would be a whole lot easier. The math is not with you on this topic, FilthMcNasty.


I never understood the whole "FFXI REQUIRES MORE SKILL!!!!!" standpoint. Melee combat revolved around attempting to cap out haste and setting up specific hit builds (i.e. GEAR and buffs) in order to auto-attack to victory with a few WS and 3-5 minute JAs here and there. Casters revolved around stacking as much INT/MAB on Thunder/Blizzard (another major flaw: let's design it so that the BLM has 6 elements with which to pull normal nukes from but make 3 of them worthless in terms of damage in comparison and another too variable to be relied on).

FFXI had the most simplistic combat I've seen from any MMO on the market to this day and if anything it's a more gear driven game than WoW was in terms of needing to reach maximum potential. The only difficult thing at all was deciding whether to play on PC or a console (i.e. using Spellcast/scripts or dealing with a weak macro line limitation). At most, you had less than a dozen monsters that required you to actually move in any fashion on where to attack them or turn around if there's a gaze attack.

As far as stats are concerned your character almost stops growing once you reach level 60 in a class in FFXI. Your health/mana and raw stats barely increase in the next (now 35) levels beyond that compared to the previous 59 -- that's a seriously flawed and screwed up system. The stats on gear at endgame were never anything to get overly excited about because it was all nothing more than macro swap/situational pieces. That's really sad: I have never felt weaker in a Final Fantasy game (or any MMORPG really) than I do at any point in time in FFXI -- even with a brew on.

Seriously, you need to actually pay attention to FFXI before you claim it's more skill oriented than any other MMO on the market. If anything it gives the phrase "auto-attack to victory" more truth than anything... including WoW.

Performance in WoW is related to how you build your gearset and then apply that gear through a rotational system.

Performance in FFXI is related to building a gear set to allow your nukes to hit harder if you're a caster or attack faster in order to WS more often if you're a melee. There is no performance rotational difference between a subpar geared character and an optimal one because it's all based on incoming TP which is based upon the quality of the gear. And yes, before you try to lean on the macro = skill point you're incorrect: that's gear.

I saw someone earlier (can't find it atm) state that s/he only felt about 20% weaker with only a weapon and no gear on versus full gear. I would venture to say that the person's gear was poorly set up to begin with but the fact remains that the difference in gains are barely noticeably in FFXI. FFXI requires a lot of gear to notice a difference immediately (again, due to poor stat weighing) whereas more other games you can almost always see a visible difference in a single piece of gear due to how stats are weighed.

StateAlchemist of Amestris wrote:
TwiddleDee wrote:
WoW vs XIV rewards. In wow the more you do the more yo get, where as in XI/XIV before and after every reward there's a plateau where you may get nothing for a long window of time. In wow i could count the days which i needed for full epic raid armor. While in XI i lost track of time in between one reward and the next, 2 years for a sea neck, 3 for black belt, over 15 months for AF2, exe.....

Now compare how long that gear remained viable before it was 'outdated' compared to WoW.


I hardly call itemization being all over the place and terrible in general to be a selling point.
#32 Nov 06 2011 at 2:52 PM Rating: Good
***
3,530 posts
Professor Dyrwydi wrote:
I don't "hate" on WoW


That's fine; I have enough keyboard-transmitted rage for both of us.
____________________________
"... he called to himself a wizard, named Gallery, hoping by this means to escape the paying of the fifteen hundred crowns..." (Machen 15)

"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#33 Nov 07 2011 at 9:28 AM Rating: Decent
Avatar
**
569 posts
Hold the wagon for a min here, how did this become another WoW vs FFXI/XIV thread, from "Ifrit drops need a fix"?

I'll conclude the empty argument on the armor in the two games, in XI i had a member of my HNMLS who joined with sub-par armor, however his skill was in a class of his own 1 round and he learned the fights inside and out. After he passed the probation i personally equipped him best AH could give, and made him first in line for all consequent drop armor. His "skill" deserved to be rewarded. His skill set him apart from the cattle not what armor he used.
I WoW there was no indicator who has skill on not, this pretty much show's the skill needed to pay wow.
____________________________
99th paper cut, and the grain of salt.
#34 Nov 07 2011 at 10:44 AM Rating: Excellent
****
4,149 posts
TwiddleDee wrote:
Hold the wagon for a min here, how did this become another WoW vs FFXI/XIV thread, from "Ifrit drops need a fix"?

Yoshi is introducing a 'need or greed' system which comes from other MMOs, most notably and first to be mentioned... WoW. You could have read the original post and figured that out.

TwiddleDee wrote:
I'll conclude the empty argument on the armor in the two games, in XI i had a member of my HNMLS who joined with sub-par armor, however his skill was in a class of his own 1 round and he learned the fights inside and out.


Most HNM encounters in XI didn't really take any great amount of strategy or coordination. Someone could grasp how to defeat almost all of them in about a paragraph of information. "/blockaid on, stand here, stun this ability, turn away from the mob if we sleep it, don't cast magic after or during x ability, don't melee or WS after or during y ability, kite if you pull hate, stay in range of your healers and don't call for help" Following those simple instructions would guide you through almost any HNM encounter. It isn't exactly rocket surgery.

TwiddleDee wrote:
I WoW there was no indicator who has skill on not, this pretty much show's the skill needed to pay wow.

Threat was buffed(or nerfed depending on your perspective) so that it was easier for tanks to hold hate for several reasons. Not having enough skill was not one of them. Perhaps you remember the changes SE has made to paladin over the years in regard to enmity that also makes it easier for them to keep hate? So it doesn't take any skill to tank on paladin in XI either?

____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#35 Nov 07 2011 at 11:29 AM Rating: Default
Avatar
**
569 posts
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Yoshi is introducing a 'need or greed' system which comes from other MMOs, most notably and first to be mentioned... WoW. You could have read the original post and figured that out.


How did you relate Need/Greed to, better drop odds i don't know.

Quote:
Most HNM encounters in XI didn't really take any great amount of strategy or coordination. Someone could grasp how to defeat almost all of them in about a paragraph of information. "/blockaid on, stand here, stun this ability, turn away from the mob if we sleep it, don't cast magic after or during x ability, don't melee or WS after or during y ability, kite if you pull hate, stay in range of your healers and don't call for help" Following those simple instructions would guide you through almost any HNM encounter. It isn't exactly rocket surgery.


Then you must have never done anything low man, sure if you bring a full alliance to kill Leaping Lizzy not rocker science. However doing Sea jailers with 1 party and 1-2 people does take a little more than auto attack.

Quote:
Threat was buffed(or nerfed depending on your perspective) so that it was easier for tanks to hold hate for several reasons. Not having enough skill was not one of them. Perhaps you remember the changes SE has made to paladin over the years in regard to enmity that also makes it easier for them to keep hate? So it doesn't take any skill to tank on paladin in XI either?


You missed the point, i was indicating how much skill you needed to play any class in WoW. It just happened that the strip was referencing hate. WoW Tank, DPS, Heal's have 2 macros you spam and that's skill?
____________________________
99th paper cut, and the grain of salt.
#36 Nov 07 2011 at 11:39 AM Rating: Good
TwiddleDee wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Yoshi is introducing a 'need or greed' system which comes from other MMOs, most notably and first to be mentioned... WoW. You could have read the original post and figured that out.


How did you relate Need/Greed to, better drop odds i don't know.

-snipped for space


By putting all drops into a pool whereby people who need a specific item can raise the odds that they get it directly applies. Instead of it being a crap shoot as to whether or not anyone get's an item that they need, at least this way the group can ensure that whatever does drop goes to those who need them or deserve them.
____________________________
Success is a journey, not a destination - Failure is a destination achieved by ending the journey.
#37 Nov 07 2011 at 2:00 PM Rating: Decent
Avatar
**
569 posts
Professor Dyrwydi wrote:
TwiddleDee wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Yoshi is introducing a 'need or greed' system which comes from other MMOs, most notably and first to be mentioned... WoW. You could have read the original post and figured that out.


How did you relate Need/Greed to, better drop odds i don't know.

-snipped for space


By putting all drops into a pool whereby people who need a specific item can raise the odds that they get it directly applies. Instead of it being a crap shoot as to whether or not anyone get's an item that they need, at least this way the group can ensure that whatever does drop goes to those who need them or deserve them.


To be honest i rather have it, items drops in a individuals loot pool, and then if they don't need it can pass it to some one who does. Need/Greed is broken too much.. Proven by WoW, why should player X who's 0/50 on the item and player Y who is 0/2 have an equal right to the item when it drops?? By right the guys who's 0/50 should get priority over the guys who just started doing it.
____________________________
99th paper cut, and the grain of salt.
#38 Nov 07 2011 at 2:11 PM Rating: Good
TwiddleDee wrote:
Professor Dyrwydi wrote:
TwiddleDee wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Yoshi is introducing a 'need or greed' system which comes from other MMOs, most notably and first to be mentioned... WoW. You could have read the original post and figured that out.


How did you relate Need/Greed to, better drop odds i don't know.

-snipped for space


By putting all drops into a pool whereby people who need a specific item can raise the odds that they get it directly applies. Instead of it being a crap shoot as to whether or not anyone get's an item that they need, at least this way the group can ensure that whatever does drop goes to those who need them or deserve them.


To be honest i rather have it, items drops in a individuals loot pool, and then if they don't need it can pass it to some one who does. Need/Greed is broken too much.. Proven by WoW, why should player X who's 0/50 on the item and player Y who is 0/2 have an equal right to the item when it drops?? By right the guys who's 0/50 should get priority over the guys who just started doing it.


This is where DKP comes in. Say you and I are in a pick-up group hitting a primal and while you are 0/82 I claim to be 0/124, whose to say that I deserve it more than you? I could actually be 0/12. The system must take into account that not everyone on the run is going to be honest and therefore give equal chance to people who genuinely need the item dropped. I disagree that need/greed is broken. It's people's ability to be honest that is broken.
____________________________
Success is a journey, not a destination - Failure is a destination achieved by ending the journey.
#39 Nov 07 2011 at 2:27 PM Rating: Excellent
****
4,149 posts
TwiddleDee wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Yoshi is introducing a 'need or greed' system which comes from other MMOs, most notably and first to be mentioned... WoW. You could have read the original post and figured that out.


How did you relate Need/Greed to, better drop odds i don't know.

The original poster of this thread asked what 'need or greed' was. I never said anything about drop rates. The 'need or greed' change only deals with loot distribution.

TwiddleDee wrote:
However doing Sea jailers with 1 party and 1-2 people does take a little more than auto attack.


You said HNM. I was talking about HNM. Nidhogg, KB, Cerb and the like. All of those fights can be explained in full detail in a matter of minutes and it isn't really that hard to execute what you need to for a win. Aptitude =/= skill.

TwiddleDee wrote:
You missed the point, i was indicating how much skill you needed to play any class in WoW. It just happened that the strip was referencing hate. WoW Tank, DPS, Heal's have 2 macros you spam and that's skill?


When you talk about skill and link a completely unrelated post, it doesn't make your point.

The fact that you say people can succeed in WoW by spamming two macros makes it blatantly obvious you have never played any endgame content. I realize that you don't like WoW and that's fine, but you expose your ignorance when you spew nonsense about something you clearly don't know anything about. Spare yourself.




____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#40 Nov 07 2011 at 2:30 PM Rating: Default
FilthMcNasty wrote:
-snipped for space-
The fact that you say people can succeed in WoW by spamming two macros makes it blatantly obvious you have never played any endgame content. I realize that you don't like WoW and that's fine, but you expose your ignorance when you spew nonsense about something you clearly don't know anything about. Spare yourself.


First, great post. I only have issue with this last part. For those of us who did / do play end-game content and know what he is referring to need only point out Arcane Mages from just a few months ago. 'Nough said?


Edited, Nov 7th 2011 3:31pm by Dyrwydi
____________________________
Success is a journey, not a destination - Failure is a destination achieved by ending the journey.
#41 Nov 07 2011 at 3:10 PM Rating: Excellent
I could care less about drop rates, just make it a lotting system like FFXI, if you need it...lot on it, if you don't...pass. Can't get much more simple then that.
____________________________
Humankind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something of equal value must be lost.
Data Center: Primal; Server: Ultros; Free Company: The Kraken Club; Grand Company: The Maelstrom; Chocobo: Kweh
#42 Nov 07 2011 at 3:26 PM Rating: Decent
StateAlchemist of Amestris wrote:
I could care less about drop rates, just make it a lotting system like FFXI, if you need it...lot on it, if you don't...pass. Can't get much more simple then that.


I liked this system as well, the party pool definitely helped ensure that loot was never missed, but at the same time allowed players to select drops that they needed on a case-by-case basis. Very helpful.
____________________________
Success is a journey, not a destination - Failure is a destination achieved by ending the journey.
#43 Nov 07 2011 at 3:29 PM Rating: Excellent
StateAlchemist of Amestris wrote:
I could care less about drop rates, just make it a lotting system like FFXI, if you need it...lot on it, if you don't...pass. Can't get much more simple then that.

I retract my statement about not caring about drop rates...make gold keys from stronghold boss NMs 100% drop. Do it SE. Do it.
____________________________
Humankind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something of equal value must be lost.
Data Center: Primal; Server: Ultros; Free Company: The Kraken Club; Grand Company: The Maelstrom; Chocobo: Kweh
#44 Nov 07 2011 at 3:30 PM Rating: Decent
StateAlchemist of Amestris wrote:
StateAlchemist of Amestris wrote:
I could care less about drop rates, just make it a lotting system like FFXI, if you need it...lot on it, if you don't...pass. Can't get much more simple then that.

I retract my statement about not caring about drop rates...make gold keys from stronghold boss NMs 100% drop. Do it SE. Do it.


I couldn't help it, had to laugh at this one.
____________________________
Success is a journey, not a destination - Failure is a destination achieved by ending the journey.
#45 Nov 07 2011 at 3:39 PM Rating: Excellent
Professor Dyrwydi wrote:
StateAlchemist of Amestris wrote:
StateAlchemist of Amestris wrote:
I could care less about drop rates, just make it a lotting system like FFXI, if you need it...lot on it, if you don't...pass. Can't get much more simple then that.

I retract my statement about not caring about drop rates...make gold keys from stronghold boss NMs 100% drop. Do it SE. Do it.


I couldn't help it, had to laugh at this one.

People required to do a stronghold boss NM: 16 (A few very exceptional groups may be able to do it with 8 but lets assume the majority of players.)

Key drop rate: 10% (From what I have seen.)
Chest drop rate: 10% (Probably less.)
Your chance of obtaining an item in a 16 man group: 0.0625%

If that's not a big middle finger from SE I don't know what is. Even Kraken Club had a 1% drop rate in FFXI. So sad.
____________________________
Humankind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something of equal value must be lost.
Data Center: Primal; Server: Ultros; Free Company: The Kraken Club; Grand Company: The Maelstrom; Chocobo: Kweh
#46 Nov 07 2011 at 4:09 PM Rating: Good
Avatar
**
569 posts
StateAlchemist of Amestris wrote:

If that's not a big middle finger from SE I don't know what is. Even Kraken Club had a 1% drop rate in FFXI. So sad.


245 K.Club BCNM personal attempts not 1 KC. Over a thousand attempts across my static for the BCNM. And only 1 dropped. Was suppose to be sold and gil shared, sadly the guy jumped server 1min after he got it. And the ****** got banned, 2h's later for trying to sell it on e-bay............ That's honesty for ya.
____________________________
99th paper cut, and the grain of salt.
#47 Nov 07 2011 at 4:13 PM Rating: Excellent
TwiddleDee wrote:
StateAlchemist of Amestris wrote:

If that's not a big middle finger from SE I don't know what is. Even Kraken Club had a 1% drop rate in FFXI. So sad.


245 K.Club BCNM personal attempts not 1 KC. Over a thousand attempts across my static for the BCNM. And only 1 dropped. Was suppose to be sold and gil shared, sadly the guy jumped server 1min after he got it. And the ****** got banned, 2h's later for trying to sell it on e-bay............ That's honesty for ya.

Took me about 80 attempts. Soloed it every time. Not worth involving anyone else.
____________________________
Humankind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something of equal value must be lost.
Data Center: Primal; Server: Ultros; Free Company: The Kraken Club; Grand Company: The Maelstrom; Chocobo: Kweh
#48 Nov 07 2011 at 5:00 PM Rating: Decent
****
4,149 posts
Professor Dyrwydi wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
-snipped for space-
The fact that you say people can succeed in WoW by spamming two macros makes it blatantly obvious you have never played any endgame content. I realize that you don't like WoW and that's fine, but you expose your ignorance when you spew nonsense about something you clearly don't know anything about. Spare yourself.


First, great post. I only have issue with this last part. For those of us who did / do play end-game content and know what he is referring to need only point out Arcane Mages from just a few months ago. 'Nough said?


Yeah, AB spam and missiles or barrage proc. It's a lame setup for mages and probably the closest thing WoW has to a rotation, but that is the exception and not the rule.


I still can't figure out why people toss seals at Up in Arms. For less seals you have a much better chance at Utsu: Ni and that sells for a grip. If you were going to sell the club anyway, why not go with guaranteed money instead of playing the lottery?
____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#49 Nov 07 2011 at 6:51 PM Rating: Excellent
***
3,530 posts
TwiddleDee wrote:
In WoW there was no indicator who has skill on not, this pretty much show's the skill needed to pay wow.


Nerf drinking bird!

(Incidentially, FFXIV crafting can be done the same way.)


Edited, Nov 7th 2011 7:51pm by KaneKitty
____________________________
"... he called to himself a wizard, named Gallery, hoping by this means to escape the paying of the fifteen hundred crowns..." (Machen 15)

"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
This forum is read only
This Forum is Read Only!
Recent Visitors: 13 All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (13)