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#52 Nov 07 2011 at 3:04 PM Rating: Good
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Professor Dyrwydi wrote:
Akihiko Matsui wrote:
-snipped for space-
While playing as a particular job will render you unable to equip certain actions of other classes, you will be compensated with access to exclusive actions, which can be acquired through quests.


I can see that I am fairly behind the curve, that's what I get for taking a couple months off. Regardless this does not sound like:

sandpark wrote:
From my understanding whm can't grab anything from any class. It just heals better than any other class/job but can't cross class.


It simply appears to me that Jobs will be restricted to accessing skills from classes in the same vein as them. Granted, I am sure there was a rousing debate on the topic which lasted 11 or 12 pages long... mayhaps someone recalls the thread and can link for me? This almost seems game breaking to me... Why level any Class above 30 if Jobs will replace them?


Edited, Nov 7th 2011 3:49pm by Dyrwydi

This is, and was, an extremely hot debate. I will admit to cringing a bit when I saw you bring it up again.

I can only speak for myself, but I believe that the idea of jobs was never to replace classes. Most people will want to play on jobs when doing endgame content, but what about lowmaning and pre-endgame? That will be where classes shine. Here's a hypothetical example: a Dragoon cannot heal itself, and therefore is completely dependent on a dedicated healer. On the other hand a Lancer can equip healing spells, becoming more self sufficient. In content where every party slot counts, having people be able to cover 2-3 roles will be pivotal.

Not to mention, there is very little to back this up, but this is my own personal take on Jobs. I wish people would stop putting jobs in the context of leveling. It is my honest believe you will level a job no more than you level, say, Doomspike. You equip a Sword, you are now a Gladiator, go to your ability screen, equip Paladin, now all of the other classes are grayed out on the selection menu, but new abilities can be equipped. You are still a Gladiator, but you can also be more easily classified by saying you are more specifically a Gladiator with Paladin equipped.

Now, before someone jumps on me for there being no evidence to back that up. I am well aware, that is just my take on what they have said, and I believe the easiest way to envision Jobs. Not as separate entities, but supplemental offshoots.
#53 Nov 07 2011 at 3:17 PM Rating: Excellent
Professor Dyrwydi wrote:
Why level any Class above 30 if Jobs will replace them?

Because if as a BLM I cannot access cross-class skills I guarantee you I will still roll as a THM 75% of the time. (That is of course unless they give BLM exactly what I want ability wise which is unlikely.)
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#54 Nov 07 2011 at 3:20 PM Rating: Decent
Hulan wrote:
Professor Dyrwydi wrote:
-snipped for space-

This is, and was, an extremely hot debate. I will admit to cringing a bit when I saw you bring it up again.

I can only speak for myself, but I believe that the idea of jobs was never to replace classes. Most people will want to play on jobs when doing endgame content, but what about lowmaning and pre-endgame? That will be where classes shine. Here's a hypothetical example: a Dragoon cannot heal itself, and therefore is completely dependent on a dedicated healer. On the other hand a Lancer can equip healing spells, becoming more self sufficient. In content where every party slot counts, having people be able to cover 2-3 roles will be pivotal.

Not to mention, there is very little to back this up, but this is my own personal take on Jobs. I wish people would stop putting jobs in the context of leveling. It is my honest believe you will level a job no more than you level, say, Doomspike. You equip a Sword, you are now a Gladiator, go to your ability screen, equip Paladin, now all of the other classes are grayed out on the selection menu, but new abilities can be equipped. You are still a Gladiator, but you can also be more easily classified by saying you are more specifically a Gladiator with Paladin equipped.

Now, before someone jumps on me for there being no evidence to back that up. I am well aware, that is just my take on what they have said, and I believe the easiest way to envision Jobs. Not as separate entities, but supplemental offshoots.


This makes much more sense and would be much less "game breaking" or "paradigm shifting" for me. I get where you are coming from with the "no evidence" thing. Since there has not been much said to further clarify the initial descriptions naturally there is no evidence to support any idea on how it will play out. Regardless (and yes, I do love that word) this gives me a new take on the situation and has reminded me to look at things from out-side the box, so to speak. Thank you for boiling down, what I am sure was a lengthy and heated debate, for me.
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#55 Nov 07 2011 at 4:02 PM Rating: Good
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sandpark wrote:
From my understanding whm can't grab anything from any class. It just heals better than any other class/job but can't cross class.


Professor Dyrwydi wrote:
It simply appears to me that Jobs will be restricted to accessing skills from classes in the same vein as them. Granted, I am sure there was a rousing debate on the topic which lasted 11 or 12 pages long... mayhaps someone recalls the thread and can link for me? This almost seems game breaking to me... Why level any Class above 30 if Jobs will replace them?


Jobs will and always have been planned to replace classes in full party hardcore group content since day one. I was against overly strict builds, but most wanted job identity and clearly defined roles.

Classes are for ease of grouping, low man, solo and more multitasking. Did you ever want to do a run or xp and couldn't find the correct jobs needed for said circumstance? Classes are there so everyone can contribute enough to do the run without standing shouting for hours.

Classes will still be very viable though. Unless you are in a group. You are going to find it hard to accomplish anything on a job. Since defensive/healing buffs will be job specific for jobs. If you are not a tank. you are a glass cannon. Hard group battles are going to require much skill on jobs. If you go nuts on let's say blm. You will not have stoneskin, blink, refresh, aquaveil,& gravity this time around.(Just using XI as an example) On jobs you are your party's lifeblood, and they are yours. Life will be hard if you don't support each others weaknesses.
#56 Nov 07 2011 at 4:06 PM Rating: Decent
sandpark wrote:
sandpark wrote:
From my understanding whm can't grab anything from any class. It just heals better than any other class/job but can't cross class.


Professor Dyrwydi wrote:
It simply appears to me that Jobs will be restricted to accessing skills from classes in the same vein as them. Granted, I am sure there was a rousing debate on the topic which lasted 11 or 12 pages long... mayhaps someone recalls the thread and can link for me? This almost seems game breaking to me... Why level any Class above 30 if Jobs will replace them?


Jobs will and always have been planned to replace classes in full party hardcore group content since day one. I was against overly strict builds, but most wanted job identity and clearly defined roles.

Classes are for ease of grouping, low man, solo and more multitasking. Did you ever want to do a run or xp and couldn't find the correct jobs needed for said circumstance? Classes are there so everyone can contribute enough to do the run without standing shouting for hours.

Classes will still be very viable though. Unless you are in a group. You are going to find it hard to accomplish anything on a job. Since defensive/healing buffs will be job specific for jobs. If you are not a tank. you are a glass cannon. Hard group battles are going to require much skill on jobs. If you go nuts on let's say blm. You will not have stoneskin, blink, refresh, aquaveil,& gravity this time around.(Just using XI as an example) On jobs you are your party's lifeblood, and they are yours. Life will be hard if you don't support each others weaknesses.


The only issue I see with this direction of development is that Tanks and Healers will end up subjected to using specific jobs/classes even when putting together hunting parties, NM farming, dungeon runs, etc. Though, if it's just a matter of "equipping" a job on top of your class to fulfill an assigned role, then no big deal.
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#57 Nov 07 2011 at 4:27 PM Rating: Decent
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Professor Dyrwydi wrote:
Akihiko Matsui wrote:
-snipped for space-
While playing as a particular job will render you unable to equip certain actions of other classes, you will be compensated with access to exclusive actions, which can be acquired through quests.


I can see that I am fairly behind the curve, that's what I get for taking a couple months off. Regardless this does not sound like:

sandpark wrote:
From my understanding whm can't grab anything from any class. It just heals better than any other class/job but can't cross class.


It simply appears to me that Jobs will be restricted to accessing skills from classes in the same vein as them. Granted, I am sure there was a rousing debate on the topic which lasted 11 or 12 pages long... mayhaps someone recalls the thread and can link for me? This almost seems game breaking to me... Why level any Class above 30 if Jobs will replace them?


Edited, Nov 7th 2011 3:49pm by Dyrwydi


Job and class level are linked... So if you level Gladiator to 50, Paladin will be 50 too. If the cap raises and you increase Paladin to level 51, Gladiator will be 51 as well. Sorry I'm not going to dig through links to provide you with this info, so please just take it at face value. That's their current plans, you'll still need to unlock the job via a quest though. So when 1.21 hits, you can be a lv50 Paladin after one quest, but you'll need to finish all the job quests in order to unlock skills.


Regarding the "further restrictions" nonsense, that was cleared up a bit more at some point further on by Yoshida, who is a bit more of a straight talker. It was basically stated that you won't be equipping any skills from Lancer on Paladin, etc. It's unclear but likely however, that you'll be able to equip all of a Gladiator's abilities on Paladin, and possibly some Marauder abilities (since it appears to be the second class required to unlock it) most likely abilities like defender.

It's not like the current cross-class system actually allows you to do anything interesting in terms of changing a classes's roles. Any dreams we once had of making a Rosa-esque bow wielding white mage, or something to that effect were totally crushed when we actually go our hands on the class system. But any aspect of that idea is totally out of the picture in the job system. Your dragoon is going to be focused on poking things, so there's no way you'll be able to turn it into a tank or healer or support, or anything like that.
#58 Nov 07 2011 at 4:34 PM Rating: Default
RamseySylph wrote:
Job and class level are linked... So if you level Gladiator to 50, Paladin will be 50 too. If the cap raises and you increase Paladin to level 51, Gladiator will be 51 as well. Sorry I'm not going to dig through links to provide you with this info, so please just take it at face value. That's their current plans, you'll still need to unlock the job via a quest though. So when 1.21 hits, you can be a lv50 Paladin after one quest, but you'll need to finish all the job quests in order to unlock skills.


Regarding the "further restrictions" nonsense, that was cleared up a bit more at some point further on by Yoshida, who is a bit more of a straight talker. It was basically stated that you won't be equipping any skills from Lancer on Paladin, etc. It's unclear but likely however, that you'll be able to equip all of a Gladiator's abilities on Paladin, and possibly some Marauder abilities (since it appears to be the second class required to unlock it) most likely abilities like defender.

It's not like the current cross-class system actually allows you to do anything interesting in terms of changing a classes's roles. Any dreams we once had of making a Rosa-esque bow wielding white mage, or something to that effect were totally crushed when we actually go our hands on the class system. But any aspect of that idea is totally out of the picture in the job system. Your dragoon is going to be focused on poking things, so there's no way you'll be able to turn it into a tank or healer or support, or anything like that.


Thank you fro the further clarification, and I can appreciate you not wanting to weed through all of the old links and info to locate information for some random guy on a forum board, but at the same time, you are writing as if this was / is fact. I can take conjecture on faith, and even carry on a dialog from it, but your statements go beyond conjecture and therefore beg the question "What is your source?"
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#59 Nov 07 2011 at 4:51 PM Rating: Good
That link you are refrring to is the one I would like to see.

Some of my LS mates are thinking the you will level up Paladin from 1 just like classes. And the abilites are the only quested part. If anyone has time to dig up the quote that says the Class and Job level are linked, that would be awesome.

Edited, Nov 7th 2011 5:52pm by SmashingtonWho
#60 Nov 07 2011 at 6:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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At some point it becomes the responsibility of the individual who is severely out of the loop on information to look up the facts... Smiley: wink

But... relevant link.

Massively by Joystiq wrote:
Naoki Yoshida: The level of the jobs will always be connected with the base class, so by earning experience as a Gladiator, you will make your Paladin stronger, and any experience earned as a Paladin will go toward your Gladiator experience. There's no necessity to go and raise your Paladin separately from your Gladiator. However, there will be job-specific weapons and armor, and to unlock these, you'll need to do the quests after unlocking the jobs. Similarly, weaponskills and abilities won't be earned through levels but by doing those quests. Experience is how you improve your classes, but the quest chains are how you improve your jobs.
#61 Nov 07 2011 at 7:44 PM Rating: Good
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SmashingtonWho wrote:
That link you are refrring to is the one I would like to see.

Some of my LS mates are thinking the you will level up Paladin from 1 just like classes. And the abilites are the only quested part. If anyone has time to dig up the quote that says the Class and Job level are linked, that would be awesome.

Edited, Nov 7th 2011 5:52pm by SmashingtonWho

This is from a while ago but it's the most recent I've been able to find.

Bayohne wrote:
Jobs won't have levels and as such won't need to be leveled up. Jobs are an advanced form of the class that unlocks them. So for example purposes, a level 50 Gladiator would be a level 50 Paladin. (Example only!)

Source

It's an example from WoW so some people may not get it but.. IMO it's sounding like jobs will be the equivalent of the way certain "specs" or abilities work in WoW. A druid is the best example I can think of. Back before you could just buy it from a trainer, when you reached a certain level you would do a quest to unlock cat/bear/etc forms. The cat was a much better version of a melee dps than a druid in it's normal form. The bear was a much better tank. The moonkin (humanoid chicken) was a much better caster. They are all still that same druid, just specializations in different areas.

The paladin (from the example above) is just a gladiator with specialized abilities.

That's just my view of it but it is pretty hard to tell and they can change their mind anytime along the way.

Edited, Nov 7th 2011 8:45pm by MrTalos
#62 Nov 07 2011 at 8:26 PM Rating: Decent
RamseySylph wrote:
At some point it becomes the responsibility of the individual who is severely out of the loop on information to look up the facts... Smiley: wink

But... relevant link.

Massively by Joystiq wrote:
Naoki Yoshida: The level of the jobs will always be connected with the base class, so by earning experience as a Gladiator, you will make your Paladin stronger, and any experience earned as a Paladin will go toward your Gladiator experience. There's no necessity to go and raise your Paladin separately from your Gladiator. However, there will be job-specific weapons and armor, and to unlock these, you'll need to do the quests after unlocking the jobs. Similarly, weaponskills and abilities won't be earned through levels but by doing those quests. Experience is how you improve your classes, but the quest chains are how you improve your jobs.


Ramsey, you are absolutely correct. I apologize for doubting you. Thank you for the link, great info.
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#63 Nov 07 2011 at 8:38 PM Rating: Good
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MrTalos wrote:
It's an example from WoW so some people may not get it but.. IMO it's sounding like jobs will be the equivalent of the way certain "specs" or abilities work in WoW. A druid is the best example I can think of. Back before you could just buy it from a trainer, when you reached a certain level you would do a quest to unlock cat/bear/etc forms. The cat was a much better version of a melee dps than a druid in it's normal form. The bear was a much better tank. The moonkin (humanoid chicken) was a much better caster. They are all still that same druid, just specializations in different areas.

The paladin (from the example above) is just a gladiator with specialized abilities.

That's just my view of it but it is pretty hard to tell and they can change their mind anytime along the way.
I could see this if they were intent on adding multiple "specs" per class. The main issue I think is that FF jobs don't fit well as specs of something bigger. At least, not when certain jobs have proven to have multiple aspects themselves. Your Paladin mention is the best example, as we have tank paladins (like Cecil) and face-melter paladins (like Agrias).
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#64 Nov 07 2011 at 10:10 PM Rating: Good
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Ruisu wrote:
I could see this if they were intent on adding multiple "specs" per class. The main issue I think is that FF jobs don't fit well as specs of something bigger. At least, not when certain jobs have proven to have multiple aspects themselves. Your Paladin mention is the best example, as we have tank paladins (like Cecil) and face-melter paladins (like Agrias).

I was just trying to use specs to say that paladin isn't completely separate from gladiator. It isn't something leveled up separately. It's a subset of the gladiator.

Edited, Nov 7th 2011 11:10pm by MrTalos
#65 Nov 07 2011 at 11:36 PM Rating: Good
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RamseySylph wrote:
It's one thing to say it would be difficult to implement large scale dynamic content (and it's true) it's another thing entirely to somehow excuse SE from ever attempting it because they "didn't have it in mind in the first place."


As with so many other things, someone else beat SE to the punch. The point I'm getting at is that anything SE could add to FFXIV by way of "dynamic content" would be compared to what Trion is doing with Rift. And because Rift was developed specifically with dynamic content in mind, they're ideally positioned to make the best run of it and anything any other developer does to an existing game as an afterthought will pale in comparison.

Quote:
First things first, FFXI featured "dynamic content" with Campaign before Rift had even been announced, so it would be baffling if the original team didn't at least have an inkling of adding something similar down the road.


That was then. Whenever one developer raises the bar, everything that comes after will be compared to the new standard. Campaign wasn't dynamic on anywhere near the scale of Rift's designs. That's not to say that SE can't add cool events and other such things that players will enjoy, but they'd be making a risky decision if they were to label it dynamic content. There's a difference between scripted events with random components that can occur at random times and truly dynamic content. What makes Rift's content dynamic isn't the rifts or the invasions or even the zone events. What makes it dynamic is the way they interact with one another. And those interactions, particularly on the scale that they can occur in Rift, are things that need very robust servers with very specialized systems in order to pull off. Hence, if it's not built from the ground up to support dynamic content, anything they add and decide to label as "dynamic" is going to be scrutinized and, more than likely, labeled as sub-par relative to the competition not in terms of fun factor, but in terms of living up to the label "dynamic."

Quote:
Beyond that, Yoshi-P is leading a complete overhaul and restructuring of the server architecture, and the zones, so any design flaws with supporting this sort of content could and should be ironed out during the switch. Admittedly, actually implementing that content might be something better saved for an expansion.


As above...it's not about design flaws. It's about intended purpose. It would be akin to trying to retrofit a compact hybrid vehicle to tow a 48 foot trailer.

Quote:
The only real "hurdles" to implementing a Rift style system, aside from the actual content creation, implementation and balancing (stuff that needs to be done regardless of what type of content it is) are making sure your server, and client can support the large numbers of characters and enemies in one place at one time. So... Good server resource allocation and your client not being limited to 50 character models on screen at any given time. (Two things they've at least promised to fix for 2.0) Yoshida talked about wanting to make these changes so "Large scale PvP and PvE battles" could be implemented.


There's a fair bit more to offering successful dynamic content than that. You build for it from the ground up or you don't. If you don't, anything you offer by way of "dynamic content" is going to be compared to Rift and if you haven't built your systems specifically for it, you're going to get rocked by critics all over the place. I'm fairly confident Yoshi-P and team aren't building for dynamic content. They're overhauling their systems so that they can support the basics FFXIV was criticized for not shipping with.

Quote:
So while I agree that it will/would be a challenge for them to implement said content, they have the opportunity to iron out any technical hurtles with the switch over to 2.0, and they simply cannot afford not to take advantage of such a huge opportunity staring them right in the face. If they showed off a big battle with Garlean Magitek armor, soldiers, Legati and airships fighting against adventurer black mages, paladins and monks, they would definitely move a lot of copies.

I'm just hoping if we don't see it in 2.0, we see it within a year.


Rift was in development for 5 years prior to launch with the intent from the beginning to push the current limits of dynamic content in MMORPGs. SE doesn't have that kind of time. SE is now over 6 years into development on a game that doesn't even meet modern criteria for the basics. I can see scripted events in FFXIV's future, but not dynamic content.
#66 Nov 07 2011 at 11:57 PM Rating: Good
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Aurelius wrote:
Stuff


Warning: Wall of text. I am tired, so I type a lot...

You're reading a lot into this whole "Rift was built from the ground up around Dynamic content" jazz. Sure, that's true, but you need to also accept a few things.

  • At Rift's inception, Trion was a brand spanking new company. They were just building their team, the company infrastructure, everything from scratch.
  • Though they were working with Gamebryo as a base, they basically built their own engine, and by retail time, Gamebryo had been completely replaced. They had two teams working on the same code, that is to say, a lot of the code in the engine was shared between Rift and End of Nations.
  • MMO development normally takes 5+ years, it's not a strange thing. Rift was only in development 4 and a half, and by a brand new studio!
  • Most of those years aren't spent with a full production staff either, a lot of prototyping and back-end stuff needs to be accomplished before a full team can be brought on. (Rift's team size was only 110 by launch.) Not to mention all 4.5 of those years weren't spent on making sure "rifts" worked. Sure they had that content in mind as they were building, but they had to build everything else that goes along with constructing your own MMO engine as well, and I guarantee you're over-estimating what % of their time was spent on directly "rift" related code.


I don't even care whether an Imperial Invasion in FFXIV is "dynamic" or "scripted" and where you draw the line on this is totally up in the air anyways. How "Dynamic" are rift's rift systems anyways? Having played the game... Rifts boil down to...

Portals that may randomly spawn in a set number of locations. Each portal can be one of two elements depending on the area, and spawns packs of mobs on a timer. The type of mobs are selected from "sets" of mobs available to any given rift.

"Invasion" forces spawned from rifts, which go out and attack outposts, are chosen randomly from "sets" of mobs as well, and appear to use a simple FSM and waypoint system in order to determine their target.

There may or may not be some dynamic difficulty adjustment going on behind the scenes, where the game uses some sort of telemetry to determine how frequently to spawn rifts, and such, but the actual events themselves (the large scale invasions) are largely scripted affairs.

The reality is, scripting a similar system into FFXIV would not be nearly impossible or require 5 years (more development time than was spent on all of Rift) to implement. Having a set of locations that imperial task forces could spawn at, set locations they could attack, etc. This wouldn't be hard. In fact, they already do it with the imperial invasion system in place.

It's just expanding that to happen in multiple locations, and then put systems in place to keep track of the invasion, provide rewards etc. The largest part of any of this would be creating assets, such as the airship landing to drop off troops, as well as creating the systems around the content.

So while I definitely want to see an Imperial invasion system in the game, and feel like it's a natural fit, and would be a waste not to do so, it needn't be dynamic. The ability for the end user to even discern between random and dynamic is going to be minimal.

And it's really narrow-sighted and silly to say that "If you can't do invasions the way Rift can, don't bother." Giant war zone style battles are not something new to the genre, or new to games, or new to fiction. They belong in FFXIV, they were featured in FFXI. If the system doesn't play out exactly like Rift it's okay, it doesn't have to.

The only thing Rift did was make that sort of system a solid alternative to leveling via other methods (Something Campaign did in FFXI before Rift, though admittedly not from Lv10, more like 50/60+), and create a world where those sort of events were happening on a big and small scale continuously.

The biggest step forward for Rift was honestly their drop-in/drop-out party system, and how they built that with the content. Implementing something like that, especially with the way they're revising the entire FFXIV engine would be far from impossible. And even if they didn't do drop-in-drop-out public parties, I think players would still appreciate the flavor and fun that participating in some large scale Garlean invasion event would offer.



Ruisu wrote:
MrTalos wrote:
It's an example from WoW so some people may not get it but.. IMO it's sounding like jobs will be the equivalent of the way certain "specs" or abilities work in WoW. A druid is the best example I can think of. Back before you could just buy it from a trainer, when you reached a certain level you would do a quest to unlock cat/bear/etc forms. The cat was a much better version of a melee dps than a druid in it's normal form. The bear was a much better tank. The moonkin (humanoid chicken) was a much better caster. They are all still that same druid, just specializations in different areas.

The paladin (from the example above) is just a gladiator with specialized abilities.

That's just my view of it but it is pretty hard to tell and they can change their mind anytime along the way.
I could see this if they were intent on adding multiple "specs" per class. The main issue I think is that FF jobs don't fit well as specs of something bigger. At least, not when certain jobs have proven to have multiple aspects themselves. Your Paladin mention is the best example, as we have tank paladins (like Cecil) and face-melter paladins (like Agrias).


Though this was sort of a derail from MrTalos' original thought, which was probably a decent metaphor, I would like to bring up a point here...

Agrias is not exactly a Paladin. Nothing against her, she's probably one of my favorite characters in the history of the series!

Though they are sometimes distinguished between "Knight" and "Paladin" are fairly interchangeable. ナイト ("naito" lit "knight") is often used in the Japanese version of a Final Fantasy to refer to the class we traditionally call a "Paladin." FF1's "Knight" was a sword and shield wielding class with low level white magic access. FF3's "Knight" was the same, but with the signature "Cover" move.

FF4's "Paladin" followed the exact same mold as FF3's "Knight" and then it got weird in FF5 with the "Knight" that dropped white magic but kept cover, and no Paladin class. But in all honesty, this was likely due to the fact that you could cross-class.

Meanwhile, Agrias' class is Japanese is 天騎士 ("tenkishi" lit. "heaven knight") or in the English version "Holy Knight." Though you could certainly draw some similarities in flavor, Tactics was full of _kishi/_ knight classes and their abilities that only appeared in that game, and that game alone.

I'm rambling right now. My point: Paladin is pretty well defined as a shield bearing, sword wielding class with access to low level white magic and the cover ability. That's not to say that they couldn't add more jobs that use gladiator as a class-base, essentially providing you with something resembling "specs" but I don't think it would make sense to be within the Paladin job.

Something more like... Archer being able to change between "Ranger" and "Bard," Marauder between "Warrior" and "Dark Knight" etc.


Edited, Nov 7th 2011 11:20pm by RamseySylph
#67 Nov 08 2011 at 4:28 AM Rating: Good
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I hope that IF they decide to add something like "dynamic" content or w/e you want to call it, that if they bring a large army they actually look and act like one. I think this complete jumbled mess that is rifts and campaign is so boring and looks awful.
#68 Nov 08 2011 at 5:34 AM Rating: Default
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RamseySylph wrote:

You apparently decided after this post you wanted to switch to talking about differences within jobs...


I could also bold and largen the words Reading Comprehension but I won't do that.

XI was my example of a game that used a similar system, only not within the jobs but between the jobs (still within the role). Then I expected that most people capable of understanding the concept could make a connection between XI's system and the system I was comparing it to, which is not XI's system but a system where you change within the jobs (still within the role). I am sorry that I confused you with my rocket science but I will try to avoid that in the future.

Quote:
Seeing as they can't borrow various skills from other classes, you're going to be limited to performing a certain role a certain way on any given job. The only way I can possibly see them adding variety within jobs without allowing sub jobbing or cross-jobbing (which they seem to be pretty staunchly against for now anyway) is them giving us more abilities than we can possibly equip, which I doubt they will do, at least not to any major degree.


What they can also do is to give each skill different characteristics that you can focus on and as such choose what way you want your skill to "grow" in efficiency (through stats and whatever else).

You also mentioned the other possibility. I am sure your opinion about whether these features make it to the game is rock-solid but the fact is that you don't know sh*t. So all the relevant information we have so far is that stat allocation is coming back, and class actions are going to go through a "major" rehaul.

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Either way, at that point it's going to come down to making correct and incorrect decisions about what abilities you choose, similar to a talent tree in any other game. After all balance is hard, and no one can ever balance anything, so that's really the inevitability.


You being butthurt about it is pretty funny, yet you still can't see what's up. If you seriously even for a fraction of a second have thought that what I have been telling you all this time translates to "no one can ever balance anything", then I feel sorry for even attempting to explain anything.

Yes, it's going to be hard, just like balancing XI and WoW is quite hard. Other games (MMORPG games in fact) have demonstrated that it is not an impossibility to pull this off, so this is clearly not beyond the capabilities of good MMO designers.

Edited, Nov 8th 2011 2:36pm by Hyanmen
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#69 Nov 08 2011 at 7:55 AM Rating: Good
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I also believe Rift's dynamic content is boring. Guild wars 2 will probably let alot of players down with how much hype it gets. But even if it did fail at many other things hypothetically. Their version of dynamic events is where the future of this type of content should be.

XI had it first and that game wasn't built from day one to revolve around dynamic content. So it shouldn't be too hard to introduce some dynamic content into XIV. As long as the game doesn't revolve around dynamic content solely, nor should it. SE strength both in mmos and offline rpgs is their scripting and story. Dynamic content to me doesn't have to mean huge massive battles. To me it is content that has a cause and effect in the game world. That kicks off regardless of player interaction.

Highly scripted story and events is probably the only place in a game where I don't mind the rails and actually prefer it personally.
#70 Nov 08 2011 at 1:01 PM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:
...I feel sorry for even attempting to explain anything.


It's okay Hyanmen, I forgive you.

Mostly because reading your explanation of something is a bit more damaging to my brain cells than taking a deep breath of paint thinner.

Which explains why you haven't enough left to actually form a coherent argument, you've been reading your own explanations for far too long. Seek help, I'm sure there's a law firm willing to take your case. If you or your loved ones have been exposed to Hynamen, you deserve compensation!

Edited, Nov 8th 2011 4:01pm by RamseySylph
#71 Nov 08 2011 at 1:24 PM Rating: Default
RamseySylph wrote:
Hyanmen wrote:
...I feel sorry for even attempting to explain anything.


It's okay Hyanmen, I forgive you.

Mostly because reading your explanation of something is a bit more damaging to my brain than taking a deep breath of paint thinner.

Which explains why you haven't enough left to actually form a coherent argument, you've been reading your own explanations for far too long. Seek help, I'm sure there's a law firm willing to take your case. If you or your loved ones have been exposed to Hynamen, you deserve compensation!


The two of you need to get a room or something, seriously. At this point we are discussing the hypothetical, not the actual. SE has given us tastes, concept art and hyperbole up to this point. Until they settle on a server back-end design and graphics engine, pretty much any topic is still up in the air - there is no telling what the end results will be. Dynamic content, with currently available engines on the market, would not be difficult to implement, but nor is dynamic content something that FF franchises tend to focus on. These are generally linear games with expansive end-game content. That said, it is more likely that dynamic "invasion style" content may come as the LCap is raised, but it is way to early to get into a name-calling, insult slinging, chest thumping throw down about anything.

Point to keep in mind, we are discussing possibilities. Even topics that are generally considered "fact" are in question because of the level of reconstruction coming to the game's foundation. I, and I'm sure many others like me, have no issue with broaching heretical (in a FF realm anyway) subject matter, but the personal jabs should be set aside in light of the fact that either, both or neither side(s) of a discussion could be right.

Edited, Nov 8th 2011 2:28pm by Dyrwydi
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#72 Nov 08 2011 at 6:36 PM Rating: Decent
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RamseySylph wrote:
Meanwhile, Agrias' class is Japanese is 天騎士 ("tenkishi" lit. "heaven knight") or in the English version "Holy Knight." Though you could certainly draw some similarities in flavor, Tactics was full of _kishi/_ knight classes and their abilities that only appeared in that game, and that game alone.
False. In the original JP, Agrias was simply ホーリー・ナイト, or "Holy Knight". You're probably referring to the loads of badly translated class names (Rafa and Malak, for example, are actually called 天道士 and 天冥士、and are officially--as official as Japanese gaming mooks go, anyways--translated as Taoist despite the "heaven/**** knight" silliness).

天騎士 is what they translated as "Heavenly Knight" to refer to Balbanes Beoulve (天騎士バルバネス, or "Balbanes the Heavenly Knight"), which was subsequently adapted to "Knight Gallant" for the PSP release.

MrTalos wrote:
I was just trying to use specs to say that paladin isn't completely separate from gladiator. It isn't something leveled up separately. It's a subset of the gladiator.
I saw it, and I agree. I'm just wishing more real options were available. I'm not entirely happy with how jobs are going to implemented, but that's out of fear of who will get stuck with what role.

Edited, Nov 8th 2011 7:44pm by Ruisu
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#73 Nov 08 2011 at 8:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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Ruisu wrote:
False. In the original JP, Agrias was simply ホーリー・ナイト, or "Holy Knight". You're probably referring to the loads of badly translated class names (Rafa and Malak, for example, are actually called 天道士 and 天冥士、and are officially--as official as Japanese gaming mooks go, anyways--translated as Taoist despite the "heaven/**** knight" silliness).

天騎士 is what they translated as "Heavenly Knight" to refer to Balbanes Beoulve (天騎士バルバネス, or "Balbanes the Heavenly Knight"), which was subsequently adapted to "Knight Gallant" for the PSP release.



You're correct, sorry! My memory was foggy because early the entire faction is called 北天騎士団 and early in the game ( as seen in this image ) of course when Agrias speaks she's 騎士アグリアス. Guess I should fact check on something like that before I speak form memory!

Either way she's not distinctly referred to as a Paladin so my point remains. I can understand your concern with the jobs being narrowed into a single role. But that actually is what most people want, and the path that job system based Final Fantasies have always followed.

I'd love to see classes be the base for branching jobs, and have more jobs branch off of existing classes later though... Such as I mentioned in my other post.


PS. People who translate 天道士 and 天冥士 (Rafa and Malak's jobs) as "Taoist" are a bit dense, or they are simply using an auto translate function and don't actually speak Japanese at all.

「道士」 by itself has the meaning of an enlightened individual, or "taoist" 「道」 means path and 「士」 means essentially "person." When part of a compound word 「士」 essentially means "one who does" hence 「道士」 means basically "one who walks the path." Some more examples of 「士」 in use: 「剣術士」 "Kenjutsushi" the Japanese word for the "Gladiator" class in FFXIV, the kanji in order literally mean "Sword" "Art" "One who does" leading to the meaning "One who does sword arts" or "Swordsman." 「士」 is essentially a very useful kanji for constructing a word to signify a profession or job.

Anyway, so if 「道士」 means "taoist" why is that a bad translation? Well for one, taoist is just a specific meaning that has been lent to that word, as I mentioned its literal meaning is basically someone who is "walking the path." The meaning "taoist" and also "person of high morals" developed because of common use and context. More importantly though, the job is called 「天道士」 and 「天道」 essentially means heaven (Deva realm in Buddhism, or "heavenly path").

So... When looking at the word「天道士」you could take the later two kanji to mean "taoist" or "moral person" but now you've got the whole word meaning "Heavenly Taoist" or "Heavenly Moral Person" which really doesn't make any amount of sense... However, taking it as a whole, or taking the first two to mean "Heavenly Path" it becomes "One who walks the heavenly path." How the term originally got translated as knight was probably due to there being no particularly established way to translate the term, and there are so many special classes that were "knights" and they were probably all translated in a big chunk.

Anyway, probably more importantly than all of that 「冥士」 doesn't really mean anything. 「冥」 means darkness and when put together with 「土」 "dou" (not 「士」 "shi" ) it lends the meaning of "hades" or "****." So translating Rafa's job as "taoist" makes even less sense, because if they're supposed to be "parallel" terms with her brother's job, they can't be in that case, because nothing in Malak's job name has anything to do with "taoist." So the meaning of his job is something like "One who walks the path of dark divinity/****/hades."

Did I just type a whole page about the translation of Malak and Rafa's job name? Yes. Sorry for the super derail! But next time anyone tries to tell you that Rafa or Malak's jobs, (or the various other mage jobs in final fantasy) are properly translated as "Red Taoist", "Black Taoist" etc. punch them in the face and call them a weaboo.

Edited, Nov 8th 2011 7:05pm by RamseySylph
#74 Nov 08 2011 at 9:40 PM Rating: Good
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One of you brave souls may want to go to the o-boards and suggest that they reword stuff for 2.0. Jobs really shouldn't be used for something like that. Disciplines or specializations or something along those lines but jobs just doesn't work from our previous experiences with games.
#75 Nov 08 2011 at 9:40 PM Rating: Good
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RamseySylph wrote:
You're correct, sorry! My memory was foggy because early the entire faction is called 北天騎士団 and early in the game ( as seen in this image ) of course when Agrias speaks she's 騎士アグリアス. Guess I should fact check on something like that before I speak form memory!
To your credit, the JP version did something the US version utterly failed when it was released on PS1: it successfully was able to create distinction between job names and in-world titles, which the first translation jumbled and confused from beginning to end.
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Either way she's not distinctly referred to as a Paladin so my point remains. I can understand your concern with the jobs being narrowed into a single role. But that actually is what most people want, and the path that job system based Final Fantasies have always followed.
I'll admit my observation has been influenced by fannon I've found on Agrias, a good chunk of which puts her (and FFIX's Beatrix) as the closest thing to a paladin. Sure, fannon is fickle and unreliable, but fannon also brought us the humble knight Buront and his invincible Gluttony Sword, so you can't entirely discount it.

That being said, one job-one role doesn't work in MMOs, even moreso when the IP in question has a ton of job concepts. FFXI easily proved this with the ratio of 1 tank:1 semi-tank:1 healer:17 damage dealers (slight exaggeration, but you get the idea). Everything else was either a go-between or players finding some leeway around game mechanics to alleviate the bad design. This includes ninja tanks, red mage healers, summoner healers and so on.
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People who translate 天道士 and 天冥士 (Rafa and Malak's jobs) as "Taoist" are a bit dense, or they are simply using an auto translate function and don't actually speak Japanese at all.
I think they based it more on context. The key kanji in use are both ten and dou/mei. Shi is just a suffix that tactics used for close to everything in the game when it didn't have an already-established name (hence why Chemist was called アイテム士/Itemshi in the original JP).

To close, do keep in mind where I found this. The mook that mentioned that translation happened to be a Japanese gaming mook (think strategy guide, but with 10 times more information, less typos and graphics errors, and written in Japanese) published by Famitsu (the magazine). Hence why I said "as official as Japanese gaming mooks go". >.>;

As far as to what any of this has to do with FFXIV, I'll simply restate by belief that the jobs as stuck to one role won't lead to much good given the fact that most are pre-geared in a certain direction. Which means that unless they putz around with job concepts and redefine a couple of jobs along the way (crossing my fingers for a fencing-based Red Mage), we're going to go back to the mess we had in FFXI.
MrTalos wrote:
One of you brave souls may want to go to the o-boards and suggest that they reword stuff for 2.0. Jobs really shouldn't be used for something like that. Disciplines or specializations or something along those lines but jobs just doesn't work from our previous experiences with games.
I would, but I can't log on to the forums since my vid card and PC are too fail/old for FFXIV (wtb cheap upgrades). Still, you'd have a bunch of people frothing at the mouth of they changed them form jobs to specs. The same guys that were going "OMZG AH NEEDZ MA FF IDENTITTI!!" when we had only weapon classes to go by.

Edited, Nov 8th 2011 10:45pm by Ruisu
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#76 Nov 08 2011 at 10:06 PM Rating: Decent
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Ruisu wrote:
Quote:
People who translate 天道士 and 天冥士 (Rafa and Malak's jobs) as "Taoist" are a bit dense, or they are simply using an auto translate function and don't actually speak Japanese at all.
I think they based it more on context. The key kanji in use are both ten and dou/mei. Shi is just a suffix that tactics used for close to everything in the game when it didn't have an already-established name (hence why Chemist was called アイテム士/Itemshi in the original JP).

To close, do keep in mind where I found this. The mook that mentioned that translation happened to be a Japanese gaming mook (think strategy guide, but with 10 times more information, less typos and graphics errors, and written in Japanese) published by Famitsu (the magazine). Hence why I said "as official as Japanese gaming mooks go". >.>;


I'm curious, I hate when people ask me this, so I'm sorry for asking but, could you link the article? Or did you read it in a hard copy of Famitsu? I'm not even sure why any Japanese person would have spent time thinking about the meaning of the word, it's really not complex.

And yeah about 士 you basically reiterated what I said more concisely, it's basically a suffix that literally means job or profession.

Anyways, the reason I mentioned other mage jobs is... 道士 "doushi" is the suffix for all traditional FF mage jobs 赤魔道士, 黒魔道士 etc, which I am sure you already know. So really "Black Magic Taoist" is such a stupid translation, it's obvious what the meaning is... It means "One who walks the path of Black Magic," "Wielder of Black Magic," "Black Magician" which of course at the end of this road of simplification became "Black Mage."

Taking the term 道士 as taoist would be like... An English speaking person taking the "Magus" in the term "Arch Magus" (if it appeared in a game) to mean someone who is a follower of Zoroaster. That's a very specific historical meaning for the word. It's obvious from the context that they're simply using the word as a fancy way to say "mage." So I'd love to see an article where a Japanese person takes 道士 as taoist in this context. Honestly, and I may be overstepping here, as I'm not a native Japanese speaker... but it sounds like that person, native Japanese or not is pretty dense, or was just not thinking.

Edit: Lol, for Christ's sake, speaking of semantics I thought you were using the word "Mook" to refer to a person, I'm just now realizing you meant Mag/Book. Which Mook was it? I have the Tactics Complete Guide, picked it up in Akihabara last time I was there, but it was for the PSP re-release. I still stand by what I said above though, I don't know why any native speaker would interpret it that way, and would go as far as saying they're a "mook" (this time I do mean the person) for doing so.




And since I'm aware this has nothing to do with the topic at hand, I'll say something about the topic...

Why would sticking one job to one role create the same problem we had in FFXI? A lot of FFXI's balance issues were just due to the number of jobs and the whole subjob bit. That's just a lot of stuff to balance. If anything this system should be significantly easier to balance.

I agree it will be interesting to see what they do with jobs like Red Mage who very distinctly do not fit into any specific role in the four-role system. And as Red Mage is my favorite job outside of Blue Mage, I hope to god they don't butcher it by trying to force it into any role in the four-role system. "Magic Swordsman" has existed as a separate concept, but I wouldn't complain I suppose if Red Mage basically took that role... To be perfectly honest though, I'd dig a Red Mage that had stances and could switch between all four roles, but never maintain one for longer than a minute or two. Basically making them a "plug the leak" job, which is what they always were in tough fights in single player FF, at least for me.

Edited, Nov 8th 2011 8:21pm by RamseySylph
#77 Nov 08 2011 at 10:26 PM Rating: Good
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RamseySylph wrote:
I don't even care whether an Imperial Invasion in FFXIV is "dynamic" or "scripted" and where you draw the line on this is totally up in the air anyways. How "Dynamic" are rift's rift systems anyways? Having played the game... Rifts boil down to...

Portals that may randomly spawn in a set number of locations. Each portal can be one of two elements depending on the area, and spawns packs of mobs on a timer. The type of mobs are selected from "sets" of mobs available to any given rift.


That has changed with every major update since launch. You can now find pretty much every different plane represented in every zone.

Quote:
"Invasion" forces spawned from rifts, which go out and attack outposts, are chosen randomly from "sets" of mobs as well, and appear to use a simple FSM and waypoint system in order to determine their target.


They don't just attack outposts. They attack pretty much everything on their way to their designated target, excluding mobs associated with that plane (ie. death invasion mobs won't attack undead.) That's where the dynamic component comes in; you can play planar factions off of one another to tip the scales, or you can piggyback off an invasion general fighting a bunch of standard mobs and let the mobs help you win, etc. That and the fact that there are so many potential spawn points and invasion routes that you never know what you'll find when you arrive in a zone.

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There may or may not be some dynamic difficulty adjustment going on behind the scenes, where the game uses some sort of telemetry to determine how frequently to spawn rifts, and such, but the actual events themselves (the large scale invasions) are largely scripted affairs.


Zone events, rift classifications (and their associated invasion spawns) and frequency of spawns are all linked to zone population and can adjust from stage to stage depending on how many people are around.

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The reality is, scripting a similar system into FFXIV would not be nearly impossible or require 5 years (more development time than was spent on all of Rift) to implement. Having a set of locations that imperial task forces could spawn at, set locations they could attack, etc. This wouldn't be hard. In fact, they already do it with the imperial invasion system in place.


I didn't say it would take five years to implement the dynamic systems. I said Rift was a game 5 years in development that built with dynamic content in mind from the beginning. There's a difference. Trion is the first and only MMO developer I've seen that talked up their server hardware prior to launch. It has that much of an impact on their ability to do what they do. They're specialized servers that allow the devs to treat the entire game world as basically one zone, allocating resources where they're needed.

I think you grossly underestimate the bandwidth required to keep track of everything that goes on during a zone event and even some generic rift/invasion activity in highly populated zones. We're not talking about a couple dozen mobs extra for the servers to handle. We're talking about potentially hundreds. I've seen zone events where one hub all by itself gets swarmed by well over 50 mobs with several other hubs in the same zone experiencing the same kind of onslaught. That's a phenomenal amount of bandwidth by current standards. And when you throw in a couple hundred players taking part in that event, you need the backbone to support it or everyone is going to find themselves at the login screen in short order. It's not something you put together as an afterthought. You build for it, or it's just a tightly scripted theme park event on a loop.

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And it's really narrow-sighted and silly to say that "If you can't do invasions the way Rift can, don't bother."


I didn't say that, either. I said SE should be very mindful about what, if anything, they ever refer to as "dynamic content" because they can't afford any disappointing comparisons to other games.

Quote:
The biggest step forward for Rift was honestly their drop-in/drop-out party system, and how they built that with the content. Implementing something like that, especially with the way they're revising the entire FFXIV engine would be far from impossible. And even if they didn't do drop-in-drop-out public parties, I think players would still appreciate the flavor and fun that participating in some large scale Garlean invasion event would offer.


The biggest step forward for Rift was developing back end systems that could support hundreds of players and hundreds of mobs in the same area duking it out without guaranteeing unplayable lag and server crashes. That's Trion's thing. Rift was a test bed for the back end technology that will drive future endeavors. It's not just a matter of spawning more mobs and telling them where to go and giving them spiffy spawn events and all that. When you've got 50 mobs in a tight bunch and 30-40 players throwing down all kinds of AoE and single target damage and single target/group healing and you have to manage movement, threat, and all the other combat tables, you realize that there can be more load on the servers from a fight in Rift that is taking place within a radius of 40m than there can be in an entire subzone in FFXIV. You don't just add modules and tweak to make that kind of thing happen in an MMO.
#78 Nov 08 2011 at 10:42 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm not going to argue all of your points, because I feel like in reality we're on the same page. I agree that what Trion set out to do, and what they accomplished can't be simply emulated by haphazardly adding features.

I'm not trying to diminish the effort they put in either. But if you read most of the literature coming out of SE, the key thing they repeat time and time again about the change to the server architecture and the engine's rendering capabilities for 2.0 are...

  • We want to allow more players and enemies in one place at a time for large scale battles
  • We want players to be able to see more enemies and players in one place at a time for large scale battles


If those two things are to be believed, some kind of large scale invasion content seems natural. And it seems like the direction they're going, even if they can't commit to anything like that for 2.0.

So I feel like we're on the same page. Large scale invasion content would be fun, SE should seriously consider it, however, it would be difficult and consume a lot of resources to implement. It would also need to be pretty solid, because it will inevitably be compared to a system like Rift's so if it pales in comparison, that would be a big disappointment.

I think as long as they took their own distinct direction with it, and didn't go spewing about it being "dynamic" if it was mostly scripted, with some randomness thrown in, it would be a great addition.
#79 Nov 08 2011 at 11:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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RamseySylph wrote:
I'm not going to argue all of your points, because I feel like in reality we're on the same page. I agree that what Trion set out to do, and what they accomplished can't be simply emulated by haphazardly adding features.

I'm not trying to diminish the effort they put in either. But if you read most of the literature coming out of SE, the key thing they repeat time and time again about the change to the server architecture and the engine's rendering capabilities for 2.0 are...

  • We want to allow more players and enemies in one place at a time for large scale battles
  • We want players to be able to see more enemies and players in one place at a time for large scale battles


If those two things are to be believed, some kind of large scale invasion content seems natural. And it seems like the direction they're going, even if they can't commit to anything like that for 2.0.


If they can't commit to it for 2.0, it's a safe bet they can't commit to it. Keep in mind that their announced plans for 2.0 are largely marketing hype. They put forward their 2.0 plans at the same time as they announced their intention to start charging to play the game. I've seen SE's hype before, and this time around it means a whole lot of nothing to me. They failed to deliver in the biggest way possible the last time I bought into the mumbo jumbo. This time, I'll believe it when I see it. What they want to do and what they're able to do are not mutually inclusive.

Quote:
I think as long as they took their own distinct direction with it, and didn't go spewing about it being "dynamic" if it was mostly scripted, with some randomness thrown in, it would be a great addition.


My experience with SE is that they don't do random very well. They haven't quite got the knack for random = diverse vs. random = irritating. They don't seem to think that way. SE has always been okay with "you did everything right but the RNG still didn't like you so pffffft." The trick is to make things seem random without being random, and reserve the truly random influences for those situations that aren't likely to make or break you. That means that as far as large scale battles go, they'd need to be heavily and fully scripted, or they're just going to **** a lot of people off.
#80 Nov 08 2011 at 11:55 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't know if it's as much that they have no idea how to make random work, as it is that they don't test enough. Or they test, but they don't plan in enough time for their actual designers to test their own content, and their QA team is totally dishonest with them. QA not giving adequate validation feedback is a big industry problem, and probably compounded by cultural morays in Japan.

The systemic lack of testing, getting feedback, and iterating seems to have crippled all of their efforts in the MMO-space. It's only just now that they're starting to realize this with PTRs in FFXI, and I hope we'll see a PTR in FFXIV after 2.0.

What I meant by randomness was really just (some) randomness about the exact enemy compositions, ally compositions, and where the attacks begin. After that whatever AI they would decide to run with would take over and perform (somewhat) predictably, as far as path-finding, target-selection and battle strategies etc.

I agree though that they shouldn't promise something they can't commit to. In fact that's what I was saying, when you quoted me. I was just saying, it's not something they can commit to getting in for 2.0, therefore, I hope it's something they still plan to implement. Nothing could harm them more than failing to deliver on something they promise at this point.

Edited, Nov 8th 2011 9:56pm by RamseySylph
#81 Nov 09 2011 at 6:46 AM Rating: Excellent
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Ruisu wrote:
MrTalos wrote:
One of you brave souls may want to go to the o-boards and suggest that they reword stuff for 2.0. Jobs really shouldn't be used for something like that. Disciplines or specializations or something along those lines but jobs just doesn't work from our previous experiences with games.
I would, but I can't log on to the forums since my vid card and PC are too fail/old for FFXIV (wtb cheap upgrades). Still, you'd have a bunch of people frothing at the mouth of they changed them form jobs to specs. The same guys that were going "OMZG AH NEEDZ MA FF IDENTITTI!!" when we had only weapon classes to go by.

I guess I was thinking they would change classes to jobs and then think of some other name for the advanced forms of them. I've little doubt that the poor soul who would post that would get bombarded with complaints of trying to make the game FFXI or telling them to go play FFXI. This was a prime example of them being different for the sake of being different. There would've been no harm calling classes jobs from the beginning.
#82 Nov 09 2011 at 7:16 AM Rating: Decent
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RamseySylph wrote:

It's okay Hyanmen, I forgive you.

Mostly because reading your explanation of something is a bit more damaging to my brain cells than taking a deep breath of paint thinner.

Which explains why you haven't enough left to actually form a coherent argument, you've been reading your own explanations for far too long. Seek help, I'm sure there's a law firm willing to take your case. If you or your loved ones have been exposed to Hynamen, you deserve compensation!


It's replies like these and the fact they are rated "good" why I'm glad that ZAM has lost it's edge ever since the official forums launched.

Yes, dear ZAM userbase, it is better to rate a post with no valid criticism or argument but instead witty personal insults with no explanation nor reason behind them "good" while someone actually providing an argument with explanations deserves to be defaulted.

ZAM is as classy as ever. Not to say that the quoted post isn't a good representative of RamseySylph in general.

Quote:
My experience with SE is that they don't do random very well.


Find me randomized content that has more longevity than Nyzul Isle and then we might be talking.

Edited, Nov 9th 2011 4:21pm by Hyanmen
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We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#83 Nov 09 2011 at 11:21 AM Rating: Good
Hyanmen wrote:
RamseySylph wrote:

It's okay Hyanmen, I forgive you.

Mostly because reading your explanation of something is a bit more damaging to my brain cells than taking a deep breath of paint thinner.

Which explains why you haven't enough left to actually form a coherent argument, you've been reading your own explanations for far too long. Seek help, I'm sure there's a law firm willing to take your case. If you or your loved ones have been exposed to Hynamen, you deserve compensation!


It's replies like these and the fact they are rated "good" why I'm glad that ZAM has lost it's edge ever since the official forums launched.

Yes, dear ZAM userbase, it is better to rate a post with no valid criticism or argument but instead witty personal insults with no explanation nor reason behind them "good" while someone actually providing an argument with explanations deserves to be defaulted.

ZAM is as classy as ever. Not to say that the quoted post isn't a good representative of RamseySylph in general.


It is posts like this that lead to users down rating you. Whining never wins positive accolades. Take it from the guy who can't post without coming off as a prick, I know - and oddly am fine with it.

Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
My experience with SE is that they don't do random very well.


Find me randomized content that has more longevity than Nyzul Isle and then we might be talking.

Edited, Nov 9th 2011 4:21pm by Hyanmen


Agreed, SE has a hard time breaking from the linear game-play model that they use. Random means that every aspect is no longer controlled which leads to chaos, in the minds of the Devs. Trion used a element of chaos to build a world that felt dynamic and random, but in reality was extremely organized. SE should focus a few devs on developing controlled chaos scenarios which can be randomly plugged into any given zone at any time - forced spawns of a sort. Granted this would not be easy, and likely not something we would see with the 2.0 release, but should definitely be something they could introduce as a part of a major update patch 6-9 months following the re-launch of the game. As I said earlier, the technology is out there, and readily available for a price. Porting into their system would take time, and tying into the story-line would be the largest challenge.
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#84 Nov 09 2011 at 12:55 PM Rating: Decent
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MrTalos wrote:
Ruisu wrote:
MrTalos wrote:
One of you brave souls may want to go to the o-boards and suggest that they reword stuff for 2.0. Jobs really shouldn't be used for something like that. Disciplines or specializations or something along those lines but jobs just doesn't work from our previous experiences with games.
I would, but I can't log on to the forums since my vid card and PC are too fail/old for FFXIV (wtb cheap upgrades). Still, you'd have a bunch of people frothing at the mouth of they changed them form jobs to specs. The same guys that were going "OMZG AH NEEDZ MA FF IDENTITTI!!" when we had only weapon classes to go by.

I guess I was thinking they would change classes to jobs and then think of some other name for the advanced forms of them. I've little doubt that the poor soul who would post that would get bombarded with complaints of trying to make the game FFXI or telling them to go play FFXI. This was a prime example of them being different for the sake of being different. There would've been no harm calling classes jobs from the beginning.
Then you'd have the whole "OMG WTF IS THIS GLA AND MRD??!??!? WHER IZ MAH WAR AND DRK?????" thing happening. Which did happen both here and on the O.boards. People were making asinine claims that the game didn't feel like Final Fantasy or something, and the finger was pointed at the weapon classes.

Edited, Nov 9th 2011 1:55pm by Ruisu
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#85 Nov 09 2011 at 1:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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Ruisu wrote:
Then you'd have the whole "OMG WTF IS THIS GLA AND MRD??!??!? WHER IZ MAH WAR AND DRK?????" thing happening. Which did happen both here and on the O.boards. People were making asinine claims that the game didn't feel like Final Fantasy or something, and the finger was pointed at the weapon classes.

I know. They are hosed either way they go but right now using "jobs" as something that is almost nothing like a job from previous FF's (that I can recall) is just odd. It causes undue confusion IMO.
#86 Nov 09 2011 at 2:06 PM Rating: Good
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Well the class system was not called the job system to begin with, because the intent was for it to be nothing like the traditional job system, hence the invention of all new "classes" to populate the armory system.

But I'm curious how is the job system, "nothing like jobs" from previous games? Just because it's layered on top of an existing system? Functionally it seems to me to be exactly like the most basic form of the job system. Each job has a specific role and limited set of abilities. You can swap between them.

It's like if they layered the job system over top of FFXII's license board, and made it so you could have those characters become a specific job and then be limited to that skill set and more powerful. But still (unlike Zodiac Job system) allowed them to swap back to the standard license board where they might have a broader range of abilities.



Edited, Nov 9th 2011 12:06pm by RamseySylph
#87 Nov 09 2011 at 2:44 PM Rating: Decent
RamseySylph wrote:
Well the class system was not called the job system to begin with, because the intent was for it to be nothing like the traditional job system, hence the invention of all new "classes" to populate the armory system.

But I'm curious how is the job system, "nothing like jobs" from previous games? Just because it's layered on top of an existing system? Functionally it seems to me to be exactly like the most basic form of the job system. Each job has a specific role and limited set of abilities. You can swap between them.

It's like if they layered the job system over top of FFXII's license board, and made it so you could have those characters become a specific job and then be limited to that skill set and more powerful. But still (unlike Zodiac Job system) allowed them to swap back to the standard license board where they might have a broader range of abilities.

Edited, Nov 9th 2011 12:06pm by RamseySylph


This proposed job system seems closest aligned to that of FFV (or whichever it was with Bartz as the main character). In this system you could select your basic "adventurer" class, or a specialized Job. Granted in that system you still had to level the "Job" but the base stats were generated based on your "adventurer" stats, loosely, granted, but still there. And just because you were a 99 Adventurer did not mean that when you equipped "Monk" that you automatically got the "Counter" ability (my absolute favorite ability btw - Counter+X-Strike). You had to gain the abilities of each Job separate from the level of the character (in FFV it was through EXP, not quests as is currently being proposed). This leads me to believe that the proposed system has the potential to work well. Players would not have to level 18 classes (or whatever) simply level the base classes and quest the Jobs and desired skills on an "as needed basis."
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#88 Nov 09 2011 at 4:19 PM Rating: Good
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RamseySylph wrote:
Why would sticking one job to one role create the same problem we had in FFXI? A lot of FFXI's balance issues were just due to the number of jobs and the whole subjob bit. That's just a lot of stuff to balance. If anything this system should be significantly easier to balance.
XI's problems started with how bland each job was because Tanaka and Matsui had it in their heads that every job should be unique and have a niche, ignoring the fact that MMO players tend to min-max stuff to the point where, if given the opportunity, they will exclude certain jobs at the slightest inconvenience. That was just the start.

Second came role distribution. That one came as a result of the above point and the hands-off approach the developers took. Where ninja tanking would have gotten nerfed to the ground by other developer teams while buffing warriors and possibly retooling samurai to work as tanks, the old devs allowed it. Where summoner would have gotten revamped to a real healing job (or given some actual direction instead of the mess that job was for several years), it was left alone. Then they created the idiotic battery role that Red Mage was shackled to, and we all know how that turned out as well.

Third came how role distribution affected party dynamics. We've seen this mess with how parties were made, the fact parties and entire alliances were held hostage by bards and red mages, and the general opinion that "X job can't be added because it deals damage and we have enough damage dealers", along with "X job can't deal damage because the game has enough damage dealers".

This all being said, my main problem is the fact that we're going back to implementing jobs, which are being tied into particular roles, except the job concepts do not support proper role distribution. Sure, mechanically it's fine, but it does urinate on those who identify with one job more than the others.
Quote:
I agree it will be interesting to see what they do with jobs like Red Mage who very distinctly do not fit into any specific role in the four-role system. And as Red Mage is my favorite job outside of Blue Mage, I hope to god they don't butcher it by trying to force it into any role in the four-role system. "Magic Swordsman" has existed as a separate concept, but I wouldn't complain I suppose if Red Mage basically took that role.
As a concept, the job has potential that is never fleshed out because in single player FFs the job has always been kept mediocre in every aspect. Magic Swordsmanship happens to be part of that potential. Perhaps it is my aversion for support roles, but if given the choice I'd spec a Red Mage into Magic Swordsmanship and never look back.

In all honesty, in the case of hybrids they really need to consider making each one mechanically unique. XI has this problem, particularly with Dark Knights. Black magic spells that follow the exact same rules as the spells for black mages...toward whom the ruleset favors. Be another story if spell damage and accuracy on Dark Knight scaled with a stat they actually stack, like Strength or Attack. Then you create real hybrid gameplay.

Edited, Nov 9th 2011 5:26pm by Ruisu
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#89 Nov 10 2011 at 8:57 AM Rating: Excellent
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RamseySylph wrote:
Well the class system was not called the job system to begin with, because the intent was for it to be nothing like the traditional job system, hence the invention of all new "classes" to populate the armory system.

This is what I was saying about being different for different's sake. They didn't want to be like FFXI but they eventually add the word/title/whatever "jobs" and things like paladin and white mage and black mage. Just seems silly.

RamseySylph wrote:
But I'm curious how is the job system, "nothing like jobs" from previous games? Just because it's layered on top of an existing system? Functionally it seems to me to be exactly like the most basic form of the job system. Each job has a specific role and limited set of abilities. You can swap between them.

Please note that I said "that I can recall" so it's possible that there are some but they don't seem like jobs to me because they aren't something you gain experience to level up. I still think they are specializations. That seems to cause confusion when calling it a job if people ever played FFXI.
#90 Nov 10 2011 at 12:39 PM Rating: Default
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what i wan to know is why is no one asking about 1.20? combos and such. people seem to keep asking pointless questions about something 1year away
#91 Nov 10 2011 at 12:54 PM Rating: Decent
kennygotgame wrote:
what i wan to know is why is no one asking about 1.20? combos and such. people seem to keep asking pointless questions about something 1year away


Because we care more about the end results than the small steps being taken right now.

Edited, Nov 10th 2011 1:57pm by Dyrwydi
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#92 Nov 10 2011 at 1:02 PM Rating: Default
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Professor Dyrwydi wrote:
kennygotgame wrote:
what i wan to know is why is no one asking about 1.20? combos and such. people seem to keep asking pointless questions about something 1year away


Because we care more about the end results than the small steps being taken right now.

Edited, Nov 10th 2011 1:57pm by Dyrwydi
Small steps? the changes to all classes that come in 1.20 is small?. The end result can always be changed. They have to build a solid foundation which no one seems to ask about. Hence how we ended up with the craptacular game we were given.
#93 Nov 10 2011 at 2:26 PM Rating: Good
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MrTalos wrote:
RamseySylph wrote:
Well the class system was not called the job system to begin with, because the intent was for it to be nothing like the traditional job system, hence the invention of all new "classes" to populate the armory system.

This is what I was saying about being different for different's sake. They didn't want to be like FFXI but they eventually add the word/title/whatever "jobs" and things like paladin and white mage and black mage. Just seems silly.

RamseySylph wrote:
But I'm curious how is the job system, "nothing like jobs" from previous games? Just because it's layered on top of an existing system? Functionally it seems to me to be exactly like the most basic form of the job system. Each job has a specific role and limited set of abilities. You can swap between them.

Please note that I said "that I can recall" so it's possible that there are some but they don't seem like jobs to me because they aren't something you gain experience to level up. I still think they are specializations. That seems to cause confusion when calling it a job if people ever played FFXI.


MrTalos, there are a lot of reasons for why the game started without a job system and is now ending up with one. I can tell you with certainty that a strict job system as they're implementing it now was likely not the intent of the original development team.

The Final Fantasy series has always changed from title to title, a new narrative combined with a new take on the battle system is just as expected as Chocobos and Airships. Trying to make something different from FFXI wasn't why the original development team failed. Unless any of us ever get to see a launch post mortem (and we likely won't) we'll likely never know all of the reasons behind the failure.

But as far as the failure of the armory system in general, as I mentioned, it wasn't that it was something different from FFXI, it was that it straddled the line between being a class-less system and a class-based system, without really pulling the strong points from either. If they had focused more on characters defining combat roles early on, and committed more strongly to the free-form system they may have been on to something.

Fast forward six months to the new team's takeover. They have a few options at this point, burn everything to the ground and start over, move the class system strongly towards being free-form or move it towards the traditional job system. They decided not to start over, and moving the class system towards being free-form is taking a big risk they can't afford to take given the game's history. So the job system was a natural fit, something that would allow them to balance characters more easily, and has the added bonus of lending a more distinct "Final Fantasy" feeling to the game.

Jobs can still level up mind you, they just also cause the class they're associated with to level up. I think getting into the gritty details about how they level up or the fact that they're linked to class is probably over-analyzing the system. Sure we need to understand how it functions from a player's perspective, but I don't think that's enough to dismiss it as tremendously dissimilar from existing job systems.

Jobs don't really gain EXP in Final Fantasy Tactics, they just get points to unlock skills, and as the base character levels up you'll become stronger on that job either way. That base character is getting exp when you're on that job though. So it's sort of a mash up of existing systems, and instead of points to unlock skills we complete quests. It's still the job system, it's just tweaked for an MMO, and to exist on top of a slightly more free-form system.

kennygotgame wrote:
Professor Dyrwydi wrote:
kennygotgame wrote:
what i wan to know is why is no one asking about 1.20? combos and such. people seem to keep asking pointless questions about something 1year away


Because we care more about the end results than the small steps being taken right now.

Edited, Nov 10th 2011 1:57pm by Dyrwydi
Small steps? the changes to all classes that come in 1.20 is small?. The end result can always be changed. They have to build a solid foundation which no one seems to ask about. Hence how we ended up with the craptacular game we were given.


Some people here might be waiting for 2.0 to even start playing again, or playing in earnest. And come 1.21, we'll be focused on playing our corresponding jobs when it comes to completing difficult content. We also have less information about what kind of changes are coming to the classes in 1.2 and the combo system. I'm sure when we finally get a little info next week, there will be a big discussion about that stuff.

#94 Nov 10 2011 at 7:52 PM Rating: Decent
kennygotgame wrote:
Professor Dyrwydi wrote:
kennygotgame wrote:
what i wan to know is why is no one asking about 1.20? combos and such. people seem to keep asking pointless questions about something 1year away
Because we care more about the end results than the small steps being taken right now.
Edited, Nov 10th 2011 1:57pm by Dyrwydi
Small steps? the changes to all classes that come in 1.20 is small?. The end result can always be changed. They have to build a solid foundation which no one seems to ask about. Hence how we ended up with the craptacular game we were given.

What is coming in 1.20 and 1.21 has already been decided, and whining or cheering them on right now is wasted time. Feedback post-patch will be the best way to push the game development in the right direction. Since 1.19/a feedback is already in for the most part that leaves discussing the long-term future / plans for development as the meaningful pass time around here. Does this help clarify my original post?

edit: darn spelling.

Edited, Nov 10th 2011 8:52pm by Dyrwydi
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