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#1 Nov 08 2011 at 9:24 AM Rating: Good
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If this has been discussed pleas lock the thread.

To get to the point, i am currently leveling my last 2 battle classes to 50 and i have noted something that SE needs to address quite urgently. After the week were you could get AFK pl'd, and after the few weeks were you could have been pl'd by an outside 50. At present there is a huge gaping chasm for people who are just starting to come back to the game and finding that there's quite literally no one to party with. At least on my server it is not easy to find a party at the moment. And making one is no better of an alternative. And i am simply wondering what if anything can be done about this, only solution i can personally see is if the 50 out of pt PL is not nerf'd. How ever i expect it will be after today update.
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#2 Nov 08 2011 at 9:37 AM Rating: Good
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I haven't seen many posters here on your server--maybe it suffers an unusually low population?

If SE is making the game pay-to-play, they're going to have to consider server mergers.
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#3 Nov 08 2011 at 9:39 AM Rating: Good
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I don't expect the PLing to be nerfed anytime soon. It was put in as a means for friends to help each other get to a point in which they can play the game together. They would not have added it if they weren't prepared for pretty much everyone to use this method of leveling. As far as I know, today's update is not to nerf PLing at all. I haven't read any sort of outline of what is going to be done, but the posters in the thread posted yesterday(?) that brought the update to everyone's attention here assume its just to fix bugs brought on by the recent patches. I wouldn't expect them to suddenly take it out without letting everyone know first.
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#4 Nov 08 2011 at 10:37 AM Rating: Decent
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SE needs to seriously slow down exp gain rate.
They have this incredibly complex crafting system that has this magnitute of items that can easily be ignored due to the pace at which the War classes level up.
I appreciated the slow pace leveling of FFXI. It made leveling up meaningful.
I do not understand the instant-gratification crap people are so entranced by.
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#5 Nov 08 2011 at 10:53 AM Rating: Decent
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lambon wrote:
SE needs to seriously slow down exp gain rate.
They have this incredibly complex crafting system that has this magnitute of items that can easily be ignored due to the pace at which the War classes level up.
I appreciated the slow pace leveling of FFXI. It made leveling up meaningful.
I do not understand the instant-gratification crap people are so entranced by.


There's only one problem with that need:
http://www.zam.com/story.html?story=28181
Quote:
ZAM: Many players think reaching level 50 should take longer, and they believe crafters take a hit because nobody needs low-level gear because of the ease of leveling up. Are there any plans to adjust the rate of experience gain?

Yoshida: We make adjustments regularly, but we have no plans of slowing down the leveling process. Under the armoury system, there are many instances where you have to use the abilities from multiple classes. Also, supporting low-level gear would involve adding more low-level content. However, as is the case with all MMOs, low-level content is completed very rapidly, so there will be many cases of players buying items from other players. We plan on increasing market usability in patch 1.20, so we expect buyers and sellers to match up better. Thus, we feel like this is not simply an issue of leveling.


He has no plans to make it slower. I posted in another thread how you could level faster with the boot/invite method. I don't know if SE planned for that so I can't assume anything, but doing it State's suggested way is part of SE's plans.

You have two choices. Level casually, with parties or with PL.

That said. YES. I agree there aren't enough people to party with. Why did I get PL'd? Because on my server I spent 4 days in shout looking for an experience party for any of my levels and didn't get one. So I joined an LS that ranks up it's lower members and BAM, I don't need to worry about it.

Believe me, I enjoy partying and playing the game. I don't enjoy solo grinding exp on mobs that bend me over the mole hill for being the same rank >.>

Server merge or more players + party search tools is the only way you MIGHT see the PL going away. Since the focus of this game is more endgame as it seems, I don't see that happening anytime soon.
#6 Nov 08 2011 at 11:38 AM Rating: Decent
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His statement is asinine at best. Apparently many mmo's make leveling quick so it should be the same with this game. Terrible.

Why not make it like in FFXI where you had to finish a quest just to proceed leveling up? Why not make leveling part of the adventure? I just don't understand why everything has to end with instanced bosses. I don't mind having to fight bosses at the end of a dungeon but dammit, I want to feel like this is what I've been working for.

I'm definitely the odd man out though.
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#7 Nov 08 2011 at 11:43 AM Rating: Decent
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lambon wrote:
His statement is asinine at best. Apparently many mmo's make leveling quick so it should be the same with this game. Terrible.

Why not make it like in FFXI where you had to finish a quest just to proceed leveling up? Why not make leveling part of the adventure? I just don't understand why everything has to end with instanced bosses. I don't mind having to fight bosses at the end of a dungeon but dammit, I want to feel like this is what I've been working for.

I'm definitely the odd man out though.


Your not. I remember before this patch though I could get 1-10 on any job in a few hours or less by myself. I tried out level 1 again and got my *** handed to me by the outside mobs :(

I know they are looking at fixing it but PL in some way is here to stay imho.
#8 Nov 08 2011 at 11:52 AM Rating: Excellent
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lambon wrote:
They have this incredibly complex crafting system


What? Where?
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#9 Nov 08 2011 at 11:57 AM Rating: Default
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Having to make a bunch of seperate items from different crafts just to make one item, seems complex in my eyes.
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#10 Nov 08 2011 at 12:25 PM Rating: Default
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lambon wrote:
Having to make a bunch of seperate items from different crafts just to make one item, seems complex in my eyes.


Off topic, and SE changed that a month back!!!!
You don't even need sub crafts any more.
Back on topic, i guess if the PL thing stays around getting new players out of the slumps will not be to, to bad.

Edited, Nov 8th 2011 1:27pm by TwiddleDee
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#11 Nov 08 2011 at 12:56 PM Rating: Good
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eh, but it isn't very nice. Honestly - leveling is broken if the only way to do it effectively is power leveling. Glad they finally got it right in XI. First 10 levels take no time at all - starts to slow down - about level 20 you go join one of the endless leveling alliances

After trying to level up last time I played I won't be subbing for money unless they toss it in free with an XI sub
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#12 Nov 08 2011 at 1:09 PM Rating: Decent
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Personally I don't think its really all that bad. PLing certainly is not required for anybody to level. If one chooses to level by using only exp parties then awsome. I can respect that. I would like to mention that the higher your level gets, the more and more you'll see people shouting for exp parties. PLing is good for 1-35ish. After that, you'll see more exp party shouts, especially when you reach 40+. If they took away PLing and made leveling slower like it was in ffxi, then they would have to do away with the armoury system. The way it is now, to do your job effectively, you have to have skills from multiple classes. Who in the world would want to level 1 class up to level 20 in a weeks time and just for 1 skill that will make you slightly better at your role? At this point, I have to level gladiator up to 36 just for sentinel to use in the ifrit fight. It's already going to take me a loong time to get there b/c I just naturally don't level quickly due to real life stuff and not playing hours upon hours every day. I'd like to do what I need to do and then enjoy the game when I'm finished. I suspect the reason they implemented PLing in the first place is the not only help the new players get to a level in which they can play with their friends, but also to do the best they can with a flawed job system(armoury).

EDIT: Oh and I forgot to mention that when the new jobs/classes are released in 1.21, they will not require experience to gain levels. It will require you to do quests to get new abilities and your job specific armors.

Edited, Nov 8th 2011 2:10pm by swisa
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#13 Nov 08 2011 at 3:34 PM Rating: Good
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swisa wrote:
If they took away PLing and made leveling slower like it was in ffxi, then they would have to do away with the armoury system.


I don't want them to make leveling slower. NO. I want them to make soloing or leveling with people your level easy, convenient and fast. Right now leveling is too slow in XIV. It is painful and inconvenient. If I logged into XI right now I could probably join an exp alliance on my lvl 16 PUP within 5 minutes (if I wanted to - I'm soloing currently to get my skills up) - soloing is also very viable - unlike XIV with 100 exp per mob 45000000000000 exp to level (yes I am exaggerating but it is ridiculous)

I got bard to 90 in 1 week of XI. I didn't get powerleveled for any of it. If XI can find ways to design things which make it so that someone who is at any level range can almost instantly get an exp party, level at a non-"I want to gouge out my eyes I am so bored" pace - why can't the XIV devs do the same.

I don't expect exp to be AS fast as XI - but I expect soloing 1-35 to be less painful than it is currently.
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When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#14 Nov 08 2011 at 4:09 PM Rating: Default
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make a server ls. fill it to the brim. thats wut i did on trabia when i couldnt find people. its actually really nice. Alhtough at first i seriously suggest you investing in alot of asprin.
#15 Nov 08 2011 at 4:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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A solution to this would be Level Sync, bringing back XI's ability for high level friends to party with lower level ones.

As for the PL option, that should remain, IMO. That way people can choose and not be forced into either scenario.
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#16 Nov 08 2011 at 4:48 PM Rating: Good
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lambon wrote:
Having to make a bunch of seperate items from different crafts just to make one item, seems complex in my eyes.


If you apply this same statement to your previous post but modify it a bit, you basically defeat your own argument.

"Having to collect a bunch of separate spells and abilities from different classes seems complex in my eyes." Hence, it isn't a pain in the *** to level since it is basically forced on you if you want to be as effective as you can at your job.




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#17 Nov 08 2011 at 5:25 PM Rating: Decent
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Evilhobbit wrote:
A solution to this would be Level Sync, bringing back XI's ability for high level friends to party with lower level ones.

As for the PL option, that should remain, IMO. That way people can choose and not be forced into either scenario.


This is pointless.... 75's Sync was to get merits and help some one... in XIV there's no point in Sync at 50. At 50 you can get 200k/h exp for SB so even that is pointless. Se needs to toss in more classes especially more mages.

Edited, Nov 8th 2011 6:26pm by TwiddleDee
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#18 Nov 08 2011 at 5:48 PM Rating: Decent
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I know it is shocking but I used to actually like soloing in XIV. The only thing that I didn't like about it was that it was so slow in terms of actually getting levels (unfairly so)

Now they have made it even slower.

PLs don't fix that - if anything they just make everything suck more. I mean, I could try to ask someone to do it for me, but I don't see the point. It isn't really fun compared to soloing or leveling yourself. And no one is really partying in lower levels - and I tried doing it with LS mates and the exp was STILL painfully slow.

I think XI has the balance between soloing and partying right on. Soloing is uber viable until around 45 or 50 (though still much slower than grouping) - Groups are very easy to find because they rely on quest bonuses for exp gain - so they have very flexible level ranges (anything that gives exp works) and sizes (less people is slower, but totally viable - more is great up till max of 18)

I don't see why XIV is designing it so the only semi-not-horrible-way of leveling at lower level ranges is begging a high level friend to massacre low level stuff for you. How is that better than making soloing viable?
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#19 Nov 08 2011 at 8:26 PM Rating: Decent
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Olorinus wrote:
I don't see why XIV is designing it so the only semi-not-horrible-way of leveling at lower level ranges is begging a high level friend to massacre low level stuff for you. How is that better than making soloing viable?


Aside from the fact that it would take some time to design and implement, it isn't better. It's pretty lame to be honest.
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#20 Nov 09 2011 at 6:18 AM Rating: Decent
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I don't see the how this counters my argument on the retarding of the leveling process.
I stated that leveling should be an adventure and let you reap what you sow basically.
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#21 Nov 09 2011 at 12:30 PM Rating: Excellent
I agree completely. The problem of low level partying is getting worse and worse.

The fix you mentioned about adding new class would only make parties with Archanist and Musketeers. Who would tank and heal? Maybe Archanist can heal. But you see what I mean. We need more than 2 additional classes to revitalize low level partying.

All of that is moot until the loop holes allowing AFK PL'ing remain.

For me, partying is not a means to an end. I am not looking to be Uber and maxed out with all the best items and defeat all the available end-game content.

For me, partying is what I enjoy most. The satisfaction of leveling up is gone. You reach R50 and, so what? It's nothing special. You have all R50's? Doesn't mean anything. After reaching R50 on both of my characters in all classes I would have nothing that I really enjoy to do in FFXIV. (Part of the reason I have two characters is so I can party more.)

Right now the whole game has lost meaning to me. Best to take a break while I still have classes that I can level at some point in the future.

Will there be anyone to party with at that point? Magic Eight Ball says: Not Likely.
#22 Nov 09 2011 at 1:42 PM Rating: Good
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Another thing that adds to my concern is the Yoshi-P keep saying that they will focus on the higher level stuff over the low end. However how are people suppose to get to said level if they can't even get out of the gate with out hitching a ride on a 50 until the mid ranges. In my opinion (feel free to hate) i think SE needs to hold the train and take another look at the 1-30 level range. You simply can not expect people to love your game if you simply turn a blind eye on 2 out of 4 make aspects.

Beginner levels > Mid levels > High levels > End game is how things go... Yoshi-p cant expect a winner if he can't give each one of those the same attention. If people love Beginner and Mid ranges they will do High and End ranges. However whats the point of having the best end game if any new comers get fed up before getting close.

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#23 Nov 09 2011 at 1:45 PM Rating: Good
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Honestly if they just made soloing and duoing more efficient and fun it would help tremendously. I just can't for the life of me understand why they have made soloing suck so much when the game has such a small population.

I am soloing my PUP (for max auto skill ups while leveling) in XI right now, and it is pretty slow (compared to the blazing fast exp in alliance book burns) but each battle is over fairly quickly (enough time for my auto to get off about 3 spells at this point on EM-DC prey) and each kill brings me measurably closer to leveling.

I think what makes it so bad in XIV is the insane TNLs.
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#24 Nov 09 2011 at 1:48 PM Rating: Good
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TwiddleDee wrote:
Another thing that adds to my concern is the Yoshi-P keep saying that they will focus on the higher level stuff over the low end. However how are people suppose to get to said level if they can't even get out of the gate with out hitching a ride on a 50 until the mid ranges.


I agree with you - I just think he is in a bind - and that bind is partially because pretty much almost everyone who is left playing the game has a 50 or something close to it.

They are adding "end game" because the people playing now are all there. I just hope that version 2.0 RADICALLY retunes the leveling curve and adds a level cap increase. They need to make it lightning fast for players to get to 50 if they want new players to stick with it without adding significant content for them.

I mean, XI is pretty much all about endgame now too - that doesn't really bother me because I can level to cap (casually, while working full time) on a new job (other than some jobs like BLU that take more time because of mechanics) in a week.

Not solo, mind you, but I can get an exp party without shouting in less than 5 minutes most of the time.

Edited, Nov 9th 2011 11:50am by Olorinus
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#25 Nov 09 2011 at 1:48 PM Rating: Good
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TwiddleDee wrote:
Another thing that adds to my concern is the Yoshi-P keep saying that they will focus on the higher level stuff over the low end. However how are people suppose to get to said level if they can't even get out of the gate with out hitching a ride on a 50 until the mid ranges.


To be honest with you, and as sad as it sounds; I think that is the point. You have to remember that by the time 2.0 hits, XIV will already be 2 and a half years old. Just like many people who have made it clear on these forums, starting in a game where you are so far behind the people who entered for PC release is going to be an issue.

They haven't flat out said it, but my guess is that even if it wasn't the original intent, it's a benefit to allow/support/encourage PL to catch people up and allow them to get into the more exciting parts of the game.


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#26 Nov 09 2011 at 1:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:

They haven't flat out said it, but my guess is that even if it wasn't the original intent, it's a benefit to allow/support/encourage PL to catch people up and allow them to get into the more exciting parts of the game.


I just think it would be better to make it so that even players without high level friends to PL them can level up in a quick time frame. They could start by cutting the HP of monsters in half and cutting the TNLs in half as well.
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When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#27 Nov 09 2011 at 1:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
TwiddleDee wrote:
Another thing that adds to my concern is the Yoshi-P keep saying that they will focus on the higher level stuff over the low end. However how are people suppose to get to said level if they can't even get out of the gate with out hitching a ride on a 50 until the mid ranges.


To be honest with you, and as sad as it sounds; I think that is the point. You have to remember that by the time 2.0 hits, XIV will already be 2 and a half years old. Just like many people who have made it clear on these forums, starting in a game where you are so far behind the people who entered for PC release is going to be an issue.

They haven't flat out said it, but my guess is that even if it wasn't the original intent, it's a benefit to allow/support/encourage PL to catch people up and allow them to get into the more exciting parts of the game.




There was a quote regarding leveling to 50, players at 50 and 2.0, I can't remember the exact interview but the phrasing really made it sound like the plan going forward until 2.0 was to position all existing players to be at level 50 when 2.0 rolls around.

Edited, Nov 9th 2011 2:56pm by Whales
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#28 Nov 09 2011 at 2:25 PM Rating: Decent
Whales wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
TwiddleDee wrote:
-snipped for space-
-snipped for space-


There was a quote regarding leveling to 50, players at 50 and 2.0, I can't remember the exact interview but the phrasing really made it sound like the plan going forward until 2.0 was to position all existing players to be at level 50 when 2.0 rolls around.

Edited, Nov 9th 2011 2:56pm by Whales


I am not sure the exact quote you are speaking to, but I do remember:

Yoshi-P wrote:
ZAM wrote:
Will there be a level cap increase either before or at the launch of Version 2.0?


We are looking into this quite conservatively. Even if we do implement a level cap increase, it would be after we revamp classes and introduce the job system.


As well as:

Yoshi-P wrote:
TwitterUser wrote:
Will the level cap be removed before the release of 2.0?

This is not planned until patch 1.21. It won’t be good to have a huge gap in players’ level until 2.0 goes live, so we would like to carefully weigh our options.


So, what this indicates to me is that the FFXIV team is trying to be careful that the difference between the current player base's level and the new players coming in 2.0 is not so depressing. This is going to be hard to accomplish if they do raise the cap in 1.21, but I would guess that there may be +EXP% items for new subscribers at the 2.0 launch which would help negate that gap, or at least help maintain the equilibrium of the player community.
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#29 Nov 09 2011 at 2:38 PM Rating: Excellent
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The biggest problem I have with the leveling system right now actually stems from the ability to equip cross class abilities across multiple jobs, and not necessarily from the method of leveling. I think the biggest example of this, which has already been mentioned a few times in this thread and others, is the Sentinel ability from gladiators, which is incredibly useful for the ifrit R45 fight. Almost every job greatly benefits from having this single ability equipped for the sole purpose of mitigating Hellfire damage and as a result players who do not have it will try and level up their gladiator to 36 in the quickest possible way. PLing then becomes the only practical way of leveling because nobody wants to level a job for weeks just for a single ability. Once they experience this style of leveling, then they realize "hey why not also level up my pgl to 36 for second wind II since it didnt' take long to hit 36 on my gladiator" and so they repeat the process. Then of course there's defender II and blood bath II, and lets not forget about fast cast, chainspell, and prime conditioning. At a certain point, nobody even cares about the "experience" of leveling a job anymore because getting the optimal action bar for ifrit (or any difficult end game content for that matter) is more important than having fun leveling the job.

Sadly, this type of gameplay is endorsed by the developers of the game - the very reason they will not slow exp and keep PLing in the game. While, they have talked about making jobs more unique and eventually phasing out cross class abilities, the fact is the current state of the game promotes this type of leveling. By the time they phase it out, many players will have already PLed a lot of their jobs to 36+. I will be the first to admit that I'm a hypocrite for criticizing the system but utilizing it to my benefit for end game purposes. But personally, I have reserved at least 1 job that I know I really want to level and have not PL it for the sole reason that if they do change the way parties are done at lower levels I will at least have the opportunity to level it with other players in a normal party setting. While end game content can be very engaging I still feel that the journey of leveling a job to max without a PL is one of the most satisfying aspects of a MMO.
#30 Nov 09 2011 at 2:52 PM Rating: Decent
lightacadi wrote:
The biggest problem I have with the leveling system right now actually stems from the ability to equip cross class abilities across multiple jobs, and not necessarily from the method of leveling. I think the biggest example of this, which has already been mentioned a few times in this thread and others, is the Sentinel ability from gladiators, which is incredibly useful for the ifrit R45 fight. Almost every job greatly benefits from having this single ability equipped for the sole purpose of mitigating Hellfire damage and as a result players who do not have it will try and level up their gladiator to 36 in the quickest possible way. PLing then becomes the only practical way of leveling because nobody wants to level a job for weeks just for a single ability. Once they experience this style of leveling, then they realize "hey why not also level up my pgl to 36 for second wind II since it didnt' take long to hit 36 on my gladiator" and so they repeat the process. Then of course there's defender II and blood bath II, and lets not forget about fast cast, chainspell, and prime conditioning. At a certain point, nobody even cares about the "experience" of leveling a job anymore because getting the optimal action bar for ifrit (or any difficult end game content for that matter) is more important than having fun leveling the job.

Sadly, this type of gameplay is endorsed by the developers of the game - the very reason they will not slow exp and keep PLing in the game. While, they have talked about making jobs more unique and eventually phasing out cross class abilities, the fact is the current state of the game promotes this type of leveling. By the time they phase it out, many players will have already PLed a lot of their jobs to 36+. I will be the first to admit that I'm a hypocrite for criticizing the system but utilizing it to my benefit for end game purposes. But personally, I have reserved at least 1 job that I know I really want to level and have not PL it for the sole reason that if they do change the way parties are done at lower levels I will at least have the opportunity to level it with other players in a normal party setting. While end game content can be very engaging I still feel that the journey of leveling a job to max without a PL is one of the most satisfying aspects of a MMO.


I get that a lot of players really enjoy the experience of leveling from 1-50, but I don't think that this is what SE really is focused on. Leveling is a way to learn the basics of your class, not "the game." The "game" doesn't really get moving until 35+ and even then, SE seems to have been more "throwing a bone" than actually building out the game at that level. 50 is where the game starts, this is what they are developing for. This is where they want players because it gives them the greatest amount of freedom when designing new content. The same can be said of nearly any other FF game. The "non-linear" content does not show up until you reach upper levels - not always lvl99, it is often in the 50s that things begin to branch out all over the place. I am pretty sure that the same is/will be true of FFXIV.
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#31 Nov 09 2011 at 3:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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I get that a lot of players really enjoy the experience of leveling from 1-50, but I don't think that this is what SE really is focused on. Leveling is a way to learn the basics of your class, not "the game." The "game" doesn't really get moving until 35+ and even then, SE seems to have been more "throwing a bone" than actually building out the game at that level. 50 is where the game starts, this is what they are developing for. This is where they want players because it gives them the greatest amount of freedom when designing new content. The same can be said of nearly any other FF game. The "non-linear" content does not show up until you reach upper levels - not always lvl99, it is often in the 50s that things begin to branch out all over the place. I am pretty sure that the same is/will be true of FFXIV.


The trick has to be in staggering the rewards for progressing up the leveling ladder, however. It can't just be a barren wasteland from 1-49, with 50 being the only substantial reward for leveling.

In FFXI we had minor rewards for progressing up the level curve:

Level 1-9: Just get to 10 and end this solo slow exp so I can join a party where the real exp starts!
Level 10-17: Can't wait for 18 so I can get a subjob!
Level 18-19: Oh man, just a few more levels for Chocobos and I leave this godforsaken desert for the awesomeness of Qufim where the real exp starts!
Level 20-24: Come on 25 and Yuhtunga, where the real exp starts!
Level 25-29: Just get to 30 already so I can get my advanced job and join those awesome parties, where the real exp starts!

And so on, and so on to 75, or what was 75 when I played.

In FFXIV, we had ... nothing. Well now we have 25 for chocobos, which is a huge step in the right direction, but what incentive do players have to level beyond 25? Or to even be at level 50 at the moment?

The game can begin to branch out and "start" as the player approaches max level, but you can't have all the rewards exist solely there.

Edited, Nov 9th 2011 4:04pm by Whales
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#32 Nov 09 2011 at 3:06 PM Rating: Excellent
I have some other suggestions that vary in likelyhood.

For one, they can create more classes. Dark Knight, Summoner, Beastmaster (Shepard), and perhaps some new classes. A DD double-staff wielder. Mathematician? Ninja?

These could be released around V2.0 and would revitalize lower level partying at that time. Basically, I'm suggesting that more than two new classes be implemented at once.

I'm afriad with Jobs they are missing an oppotunity to have players re-level from 1. Some may find it nice to suddenly have a 50 PLD to play as an alternative to 50 GLA. But many of those same people would not mind leveling PLD seperately. Could be wrong, and this will surely not be changed at this point.

Finally, as mentioned by many others, Level Synch would at least allow higher level (maxed) players to join those low level parties. To me, this would be preferrable to Pl'ing. If there was a slight boost to Spiritbind rate while Level Synched, there would be an incentive for higher level players to seek out Lowbies and help them in regular EXP parties.

#33 Nov 09 2011 at 3:07 PM Rating: Excellent
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Professor Dyrwydi wrote:

I get that a lot of players really enjoy the experience of leveling from 1-50, but I don't think that this is what SE really is focused on. Leveling is a way to learn the basics of your class, not "the game." The "game" doesn't really get moving until 35+ and even then, SE seems to have been more "throwing a bone" than actually building out the game at that level. 50 is where the game starts, this is what they are developing for. This is where they want players because it gives them the greatest amount of freedom when designing new content. The same can be said of nearly any other FF game. The "non-linear" content does not show up until you reach upper levels - not always lvl99, it is often in the 50s that things begin to branch out all over the place. I am pretty sure that the same is/will be true of FFXIV.


I hope you will see the paradox in that sentence in the context of a PLing party lol.
#34 Nov 09 2011 at 3:13 PM Rating: Excellent
Professor Dyrwydi wrote:
I get that a lot of players really enjoy the experience of leveling from 1-50, but I don't think that this is what SE really is focused on.


Yes, I'm afraid I agree with you. After all the good that Yoshida has done, I disagree with this fundamental decision. If partying and leveling up is NOT the (at least a) focus of FFXIV, then I will lose interest with the game rapidly.

In my mind, a good MMO is fun at all levels. If 1-49 is not important enough to deserve the same attention as the endgame content, then it will turn out that FFXIV is not my thing. Doubt I will be the only one who feels this way.
#35 Nov 09 2011 at 3:19 PM Rating: Good
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SmashingtonWho wrote:
Yes, I'm afraid I agree with you. After all the good that Yoshida has done, I disagree with this fundamental decision. If partying and leveling up is NOT the (at least a) focus of FFXIV, then I will lose interest with the game rapidly.

In my mind, a good MMO is fun at all levels. If 1-49 is not important enough to deserve the same attention as the endgame content, then it will turn out that FFXIV is not my thing. Doubt I will be the only one who feels this way.


I too have to sadly agree with this. This MMO philosophy of racing to endgame so the true game content can begin is of no interest to me and bores me greatly.

We don't know what is in store for 2.0 though, so I'm reserving reservations until then, but I wouldn't maintain an active subscription to this game if it was nothing more than a gear-grind at endgame with the gameplay philosophy of charging through levels as fast as possible.

I don't even understand why MMOs like that have levels.
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#36 Nov 09 2011 at 3:26 PM Rating: Good
lightacadi wrote:
Professor Dyrwydi wrote:
-snipped for space-


I hope you will see the paradox in that sentence in the context of a PLing party lol.


Hardly a paradox - in the days of early MMO development leveling was critical, and for new players with no experience I can understand the value of slowing down EXP gains, but if there is no content-based reason for me to spend several hours using the same rotation of skills just to get to the next level, then what is the value? PLing simply allows players, who have nothing better to do - apparently by design, to advance to a point where they are actually challenged, and thereby enjoying their character.

By "...who have nothing better to do - apparently by design..." I mean to say that there is "content" which is specific to leveling. While my issues with WoW are specific to their end-game and casual player reward system, the one thing I loved about their system was the way they involved players in a story from lvl1 all the way up. Each zone had a major story and several semi-major stories, followed by some boring quests which gave depth to the leveling experience. There was significant benefit to leveling - gear, achievements, titles, quest rewards, etc. This is what FFXIV lacks. Yes end-game content is critical to the continued success of a game, but leveling content is critical to getting it off of the ground.

Edited, Nov 9th 2011 4:30pm by Dyrwydi
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#37 Nov 09 2011 at 3:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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Olorinus wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:

They haven't flat out said it, but my guess is that even if it wasn't the original intent, it's a benefit to allow/support/encourage PL to catch people up and allow them to get into the more exciting parts of the game.


I just think it would be better to make it so that even players without high level friends to PL them can level up in a quick time frame. They could start by cutting the HP of monsters in half and cutting the TNLs in half as well.


I agree personally, but just looking through the forums here or at lodestone about PL I get the idea that a lot of people want the grind to remain a grind. I think that allowing PL is the best way to leave the 'grinding: optional' tag on XIV at the moment.

Whales wrote:
The trick has to be in staggering the rewards for progressing up the leveling ladder, however.


I agree with your general sentiment about the process. There should be landmarks but I didn't like how XI worked in this respect. Instead of getting to a landmark and feeling accomplished, you got to a barrier and felt like you were rewarded with more trials. Progression(forgive the WoW terminology, but that's what it is) should feel like progress. I just feel that things like this were way too big a deal(read: ordeal) than they needed to be in XI but they should have added other landmarks or milestone moments on the way through XIV.



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Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#38 Nov 09 2011 at 3:43 PM Rating: Good
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FilthMcNasty wrote:


I agree personally, but just looking through the forums here or at lodestone about PL I get the idea that a lot of people want the grind to remain a grind. I think that allowing PL is the best way to leave the 'grinding: optional' tag on XIV at the moment.



except it is only optional for players who have ppl to powerlevel them. I am fairly opposed to a system in which the rewards are so skewed against people who are just starting out, without an established network.

I mean you CAN totally get PLed in XI but GoV is actually almost as fast and hassle free, so why would I bother pestering someone to PL me?
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When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#39 Nov 09 2011 at 3:52 PM Rating: Excellent
Don't you think the option to PL affects the availability of players to fill regular parties?
#40 Nov 09 2011 at 3:54 PM Rating: Default
Olorinus wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:


I agree personally, but just looking through the forums here or at lodestone about PL I get the idea that a lot of people want the grind to remain a grind. I think that allowing PL is the best way to leave the 'grinding: optional' tag on XIV at the moment.



except it is only optional for players who have ppl to powerlevel them. I am fairly opposed to a system in which the rewards are so skewed against people who are just starting out, without an established network.

I mean you CAN totally get PLed in XI but GoV is actually almost as fast and hassle free, so why would I bother pestering someone to PL me?


I cannot come up with a game wherein having high-level friends does not carry major benefits on game-play. Granted, PLing is different from getting a hassle-free dungeon run for easy loot that makes leveling a ton easier... wait...

In FFXIV the "you scratch my back, I scratch yours" system works just as intended. Get an LS, get a static party going, get a lvl40+ LS mate to help you level, then turn around and help them get another class leveled up - whatever it takes. The FFXIV community is pretty tight and I have never had a problem finding help from total strangers when I needed it.

On the one hand I do not condemn those who use non-exploitative PLing to level up fast, but on the other I have never taken advantage of offer for PLing, it just does not feel right to me. Enjoy playing the game as you like to play, but remember those other characters running around are other people playing the way they want, no one says they have to play with you just because that is what you want.

Edited, Nov 9th 2011 4:56pm by Dyrwydi
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#41 Nov 09 2011 at 4:02 PM Rating: Good
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What they could do is merge the current servers once the subscription time begins, and then try to introduce new servers when 2.0 arrives.
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#42 Nov 09 2011 at 4:02 PM Rating: Good
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Olorinus wrote:
except it is only optional for players who have ppl to powerlevel them. I am fairly opposed to a system in which the rewards are so skewed against people who are just starting out, without an established network.

I mean you CAN totally get PLed in XI but GoV is actually almost as fast and hassle free, so why would I bother pestering someone to PL me?


It's optional for everyone. It's completely possible to be invited to a group that is already powerleveling. The game being skewed against new players is/will be result of the game releasing for the second time over two and a half years later.

Those who have been playing since release or even if you started today, would likely have at least 1 R50 class by the time 2.0 hits. The best way for new players to network aside from communication in forums like this is to join in events in game. Speeding up the leveling process puts those new players in better position to make fiends and have fun participating faster.


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HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#43 Nov 09 2011 at 4:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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9,526 posts
I am totally for speeding things up - I just think it makes more sense to focus design energy on speeding things up for people who are soloing and in normal groups instead of making it a horrific painful grindy and annoying process to level up - unless you have a power level - which makes it easy cake

I mean, even assuming everyone running around in the game has nothing better to do than PL new players and they just love doing it all the time - let's pretend that is the case - how many new players will STILL quit after they try to level solo (not knowing that the game is designed to reward people for letting someone else level them) and find it to be horrible and slow?

I dunno. It just seems like really bad design. If the goal is to make leveling fast so that people can catch up to the playerbase and the devs don't have to bother making engaging low level content - why not just cut monster HP and massively slash TNLs? Why bother making it SUPER GRINDY and then short circuit that SUPER GRIND but only if you can beg a high level player to do it for you?

Edited, Nov 9th 2011 2:30pm by Olorinus
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#44 Nov 09 2011 at 5:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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4,146 posts
Olorinus wrote:
I just think it makes more sense to focus design energy on speeding things up for people who are soloing and in normal groups instead of making it a horrific painful grindy and annoying process to level up - unless you have a power level - which makes it easy cake.


I see your point, but some people are masochists I guess. There are a surprising number of people who enjoy the grind and taking that away is an irreversible process. Leaving it as is allows people to make the choice for themselves instead of being forced.

Olorinus wrote:
It just seems like really bad design. If the goal is to make leveling fast so that people can catch up to the playerbase and the devs don't have to bother making engaging low level content - why not just cut monster HP and massively slash TNLs? Why bother making it SUPER GRINDY and then short circuit that SUPER GRIND but only if you can beg a high level player to do it for you?


You answered the question with the first sentence.

Like I said in another thread, they basically designed themselves into a corner. It wouldn't have been nearly as much of an issue if the PS3 release shortly followed PC launch, but it didn't. Now they are forced to not only keep the game interesting for 'veterans' but to also make it welcoming to newbies.


Outsourcing to China was responsible for the fatigue system and the grindyness of the game. SE rolled with it knowing that they weren't on schedule with PS3 launch and also because it was a way to keep players occupied, if only for a short time, and not focused on the fact that the game lacked content. When people started fleeing in masses SE decided to open up the gates a bit and let players crank out levels faster.

Recall that most of their early information regarding leveling was about how 'casual friendly' the game was supposed to be and remember how that turned out. I think the result of their communication with players and wanting to 'please all of the people all of the time' led to what you have now. Super grindy or easy cake. Too many other issues for them to try and make a middle ground and not enough players who it would concern anyway.


____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#45 Nov 09 2011 at 5:06 PM Rating: Decent
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lambon wrote:
What they could do is merge the current servers once the subscription time begins, and then try to introduce new servers when 2.0 arrives.


I partially agree, i don't thinks merging servers is the answer. However SE should open free server transfers. That was people from the ghost yard servers can migrate to the more populated servers for party and what not.
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#46 Nov 09 2011 at 5:28 PM Rating: Decent
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The 2 things that I disagree with the current leveling system are:
1. Leveling from 40-50 is infinitely faster then 30-40 and in some cases 20-30.
2. The PL system from doesn't prepair players for high level game play.

I'm going to wait until future updates to really form any opinions, cause I wouldn't be surprised if when they finally do add a good party search and future job balances its going to make 20-30 jobs less common and PL's less effective when you don't have some OP marauder slaying level 50 monsters for a group full of 40's.

I have no problem with PLing so long as it not faster to stand around and PL each other then leveling in a party together.

Still though i'm going to wait before I start hitting the panic button, cause I doubt the combat is going to get easier, and if thats the case PL's are going to have a frustrating time sacrificing effort if they're not getting decent Soul link exp or key drops or whatever.
#47 Nov 09 2011 at 9:55 PM Rating: Decent
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KenJammin wrote:
The 2 things that I disagree with the current leveling system are:
2. The PL system from doesn't prepair players for high level game play.


Out of curiosity, what exactly do you feel prepares someone for 'high level game play'? I just don't see how doing leves gives you an advantage over someone who gets a PL. If you have good gear and you can understand the mechanics of a battle then it shouldn't matter.

KenJammin wrote:
...some OP marauder...

u jelly?

KenJammin wrote:
I have no problem with PLing so long as it not faster to stand around and PL each other then leveling in a party together.


Purpose are defeat. You do realize that the point of power-leveling is to level faster and easier than you would in a normal group right?
____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#48 Nov 10 2011 at 7:59 AM Rating: Decent
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lambon wrote:
Having to make a bunch of seperate items from different crafts just to make one item, seems complex in my eyes.


Yes, because *clearly* no other MMO ever has required you to take items made from different crafts in order to make something. A gathering of mats is not complex in any way, shape, or form: stop deluding yourself.

lambon wrote:
I don't see the how this counters my argument on the retarding of the leveling process.
I stated that leveling should be an adventure and let you reap what you sow basically.


Yes, because killing 2,500 crabs for a few levels here, 45,000 Coblyns for quite a few there, and say another 100K raptors elsewhere is really an "adventure". No, that's not an adventure. That's simply grinding on monsters to fill up a bar, so you can do it over again when it empties. Leveling is a means to an end, nothing more. I didn't magically learn a new way to play the game when I hunted Metal Slimes in Dragon Quest, killing crabs in FFXI didn't teach me an awesome way to smite enemies, and slaughtering undead in LotRO didn't unlock the mysteries of the universe.

The *ONLY* thing leveling in an MMO will teach you is that you are weaker when alone.

lambon wrote:
2. The PL system from doesn't prepair players for high level game play.


Leveling in an MMO teaches you nothing aside from where certain places are and where a handful of monsters are located. Even in FFXI if you needed to level to cap ('legitimately') in order to understand your class you weren't a good player.

Whales wrote:
SmashingtonWho wrote:
Yes, I'm afraid I agree with you. After all the good that Yoshida has done, I disagree with this fundamental decision. If partying and leveling up is NOT the (at least a) focus of FFXIV, then I will lose interest with the game rapidly.

In my mind, a good MMO is fun at all levels. If 1-49 is not important enough to deserve the same attention as the endgame content, then it will turn out that FFXIV is not my thing. Doubt I will be the only one who feels this way.


I too have to sadly agree with this. This MMO philosophy of racing to endgame so the true game content can begin is of no interest to me and bores me greatly.

We don't know what is in store for 2.0 though, so I'm reserving reservations until then, but I wouldn't maintain an active subscription to this game if it was nothing more than a gear-grind at endgame with the gameplay philosophy of charging through levels as fast as possible.

I don't even understand why MMOs like that have levels.


/goodbye

I'll take varied and more plentiful endgame content versus a ton of leveling for no purpose other than to slow people down. Leveling is a timesink and a means to an end and it always has been both in online and offline RPGs. To pretend otherwise is stupid.
#49 Nov 10 2011 at 8:28 AM Rating: Decent
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There was an adventure in leveling up in FFXI. From getting gear together, to getting access to chocobos, subjobs, advanced jobs, level cap quests, and CoP and Nation quests. There was a lot of things going on during your leveling process. Grinding helped you maximize your proficiency with weapons and magic thus grinding served a purpose other than leveling up.

As far as crafting goes, it's more than just gathering a great deal of items to complete a piece of armor. There's dozens of skills learned from leveling up crafting that allows you to manipulate the method in which you progress your crafting. You're not just waiting on a bar to fill up either. There's human input involved. You also need to equip gear to enhance your crafting abilities.

So am I deluding myself? I don't think so. There is definitely a lot more going on in FFXIV's crafting than any other game. EQ2 was the only other game with a crafting system that was even remotely interesting but FFXIV goes further.
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#50 Nov 10 2011 at 8:50 AM Rating: Good
Viertel wrote:
I'll take varied and more plentiful endgame content versus a ton of leveling for no purpose other than to slow people down. Leveling is a timesink and a means to an end and it always has been both in online and offline RPGs. To pretend otherwise is stupid.


So if I enjoy leveling in a party I'm stupid?

GTFO.
#51 Nov 10 2011 at 8:50 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:
I'll take varied and more plentiful endgame content versus a ton of leveling for no purpose other than to slow people down. Leveling is a timesink and a means to an end and it always has been both in online and offline RPGs. To pretend otherwise is stupid.


I think you need to stop browsing the RPG section if strengthening your character is such a waste of time.
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