Forum Settings
       
1 2 Next »
This Forum is Read Only

General concern Follow

#52 Nov 10 2011 at 10:51 AM Rating: Good
Avatar
**
569 posts
Viertel wrote:
I'll take varied and more plentiful endgame content versus a ton of leveling for no purpose other than to slow people down. Leveling is a time-sink and a means to an end and it always has been both in online and offline RPGs. To pretend otherwise is stupid.


How can you have a "varied and more plentiful endgame content" if the "ton of leveling" is not fun, attractive and welcoming making people invest the time to hit the high levels were "varied and more plentiful endgame content" begins? Everything in a MMO is like a stair case you can't have steps 1-50 missing, broken, and unpleasant, and expected people to just start climbing.
____________________________
99th paper cut, and the grain of salt.
#53 Nov 10 2011 at 12:23 PM Rating: Good
*
178 posts
Viertel wrote:

I'll take varied and more plentiful endgame content versus a ton of leveling for no purpose other than to slow people down. Leveling is a timesink and a means to an end and it always has been both in online and offline RPGs. To pretend otherwise is stupid.


Leveling in a single player RPG is indeed a timesink and a means to an end. But leveling in a MMO is not a time sink because you play and interact with real people. I have always been closer with the people I leveled with than those I simply met after joining a end game ls. The experience of leveling in a group, forming static parties, meeting new frineds, etc etc is a dynamic that is unique to MMOs and shouldn't be cast aside for the sake of convenience.
#54 Nov 10 2011 at 12:47 PM Rating: Default
lambon wrote:
There was an adventure in leveling up in FFXI. From getting gear together, to getting access to chocobos, subjobs, advanced jobs, level cap quests, and CoP and Nation quests. There was a lot of things going on during your leveling process. Grinding helped you maximize your proficiency with weapons and magic thus grinding served a purpose other than leveling up.

As far as crafting goes, it's more than just gathering a great deal of items to complete a piece of armor. There's dozens of skills learned from leveling up crafting that allows you to manipulate the method in which you progress your crafting. You're not just waiting on a bar to fill up either. There's human input involved. You also need to equip gear to enhance your crafting abilities.

So am I deluding myself? I don't think so. There is definitely a lot more going on in FFXIV's crafting than any other game. EQ2 was the only other game with a crafting system that was even remotely interesting but FFXIV goes further.


No, there were way-points along the way to reaching level cap, not an adventure. There was a quest line you could do at level 1, which you could complete before level 3. Then grind until you were level 10 to get another quest and being partying - hours of misery in the Dunes - even in a good group you gained little to no player benefit from the experience. What little benefit you gained usually came from grinding 8 levels and getting the three needed item drops to unlock sub-jobs. Now, run back to your home city and begin at level 1 again, this time without any quest content. Continue grinding in the Dunes until lvl20. Cry your way to Jeuno. Now you have "arrived." You have finally reached the epicenter of the game having completed maybe 2 quests, 3 if you're good and ground your way through 38 back-breaking levels. This is not adventuring content (granted I did it 8 times during my time in XI, and counted it as fun, but at the time XI was my only MMO experience).

Compare the above experience to a game where leveling is an adventure - lvl1, pickup a quest, gain lvl2 while completing the quest. lvl2 pickup 2 or 3 quests. Obtain lvl5 while completing the new quests. Pick up 2-3 more quests, obtain lvl7... and the system repeats. Reach lvl10 - grab a group of random players and hit a dungeon. Obtain lvl12 by the time you finish the dungeon - pick up 6 new quests... all the way to 60, 75, 95 or w/e. That is an adventure, that is active game-play. That allows players to customize their experience. FFXI and XIV involve you in story-line every 5-10 levels. There is no motivation to level a new class, other than for end-game content. If this is on-purpose and SE only really cares about end-of-game players, then that is fine, allow the PLers, deal with the grind, get to 50, 60, w/e and enjoy the fruit of your labor - BUT if it is not the end-goal design concept then there is a LOT of work that SE needs to crank out in the next 6-9 months.
____________________________
Success is a journey, not a destination - Failure is a destination achieved by ending the journey.
#55 Nov 10 2011 at 2:21 PM Rating: Good
Sage
**
562 posts
Professor Dyrwydi wrote:
No, there were way-points along the way to reaching level cap, not an adventure. There was a quest line you could do at level 1, which you could complete before level 3. Then grind until you were level 10 to get another quest and being partying - hours of misery in the Dunes - even in a good group you gained little to no player benefit from the experience. What little benefit you gained usually came from grinding 8 levels and getting the three needed item drops to unlock sub-jobs. Now, run back to your home city and begin at level 1 again, this time without any quest content. Continue grinding in the Dunes until lvl20. Cry your way to Jeuno. Now you have "arrived." You have finally reached the epicenter of the game having completed maybe 2 quests, 3 if you're good and ground your way through 38 back-breaking levels. This is not adventuring content (granted I did it 8 times during my time in XI, and counted it as fun, but at the time XI was my only MMO experience).

Compare the above experience to a game where leveling is an adventure - lvl1, pickup a quest, gain lvl2 while completing the quest. lvl2 pickup 2 or 3 quests. Obtain lvl5 while completing the new quests. Pick up 2-3 more quests, obtain lvl7... and the system repeats. Reach lvl10 - grab a group of random players and hit a dungeon. Obtain lvl12 by the time you finish the dungeon - pick up 6 new quests... all the way to 60, 75, 95 or w/e. That is an adventure, that is active game-play. That allows players to customize their experience.


To each their own.

What you describe as "hours of misery" and summarize in the first paragraph is my ideal MMORPG and an atmosphere I strive to find every day in the online games I play. To me that's what the Final Fantasy Online series should be.

In your second graph, what you describe as "... an adventure, that is active game-play" I find to be completely boring and trite - not something I would subscribe to in an MMORPG. Jumping from quest hub to quest hub, methodically checking off quest after quest as an easy avenue to flying up the leveling ladder is just going through the motions to me, it is not active character development. I did it in World of Warcraft, Lord of the Rings Online and Rift, each time finding myself more and more completely bored with the process. I was able to reach endgame and participate in that content in WoW, but every subsequent game I played that utilized this leveling method I become completely bored and uninterested with, eventually cancelling my subscriptions.

However I find myself in complete agreement with what you said here:

Quote:
FFXI and XIV involve you in story-line every 5-10 levels. There is no motivation to level a new class, other than for end-game content. If this is on-purpose and SE only really cares about end-of-game players, then that is fine, allow the PLers, deal with the grind, get to 50, 60, w/e and enjoy the fruit of your labor - BUT if it is not the end-goal design concept then there is a LOT of work that SE needs to crank out in the next 6-9 months.



Edited, Nov 10th 2011 3:45pm by Whales
____________________________
FFXIV - Fellows - Fabul
FFXI - Fellows - Gilgamesh


#56 Nov 10 2011 at 4:22 PM Rating: Decent
***
3,530 posts
Whales wrote:
In your second [para]graph, what you describe as "... an adventure, that is active game-play" I find to be completely boring and trite - not something I would subscribe to in an MMORPG. Jumping from quest hub to quest hub, methodically checking off quest after quest as an easy avenue to flying up the leveling ladder is just going through the motions to me, it is not active character development. I did it in World of Warcraft, Lord of the Rings Online and Rift, each time finding myself more and more completely bored with the process. I was able to reach endgame and participate in that content in WoW, but every subsequent game I played that utilized this leveling method I become completely bored and uninterested with, eventually cancelling my subscriptions.


I was going to say the same thing. Walking in what is essentially a straight line from one hub of "Kill X things; pick up X other things; use X on Y" tasks to another hub with the same tasks, at the same effective difficulty, just with different looking monsters, is not a non-stop adventure through an active world. Exactly how many quests in WoW and WoW-like games have a gripping story in which your character plays a part? At least half are just killing nearby wildlife, and most of the rest that have a "story" are told through extremely generic chunks of "speech bubbles" and NPCs occasionally using an /emote.

And then the boss you killed (who has been terrorizing the local area, and took only two hits to defeat despite being one level higher than you) respawns a minute later.
____________________________
"... he called to himself a wizard, named Gallery, hoping by this means to escape the paying of the fifteen hundred crowns..." (Machen 15)

"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#57 Nov 10 2011 at 5:22 PM Rating: Excellent
30 posts
So how is sitting in the same area for 10 levels and just grabbing and killing lizards or crabs any more of an adventure? You're certainly not learning anything about the environment or gaining knowledge of why those creatures are there. There's no story you're learning while you're in FFXI's Dunes. You're just sitting for hours. WoW at level 12 you're in a dungeon and what you learn about the Twilight Cult there ties into what you'd seen earlier with a massive dagger stuck into the skull of an old god. The quest hubs you bounce through ahead of that depict why the forest is degrading under cultic influence in combination with over harvesting, and then you're sent into enemy territory where it becomes harder to level as you deal with more difficult mobs in combination with enemy factions.

#58 Nov 10 2011 at 5:29 PM Rating: Excellent
****
4,146 posts
KaneKitty wrote:
Exactly how many quests in WoW and WoW-like games have a gripping story in which your character plays a part?


Exactly how many of these quests would you participate in before you realized that the world you are in is far too dramatic for you to level your character in any reasonable amount of time?


____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#59 Nov 10 2011 at 7:29 PM Rating: Good
****
4,447 posts
I haven't seen it mentioned yet, but the winner of the current argument is based around the OP's concern. If you have a rich, plentiful leveling system based around a party, it only works when there are people around. This only truly exists at the launch of an MMO. Otherwise you need, at minimum, the WoW dungeon finder mechanic to find you a party because there will be so few people at any given level. Why would you build a game around a one-time event? It doesn't even help the game, because then people go all "oh the game was so much better back when it first started" and they'll never be able to have that again because it ONLY HAPPENS ONCE.

Now I agree with both sides a bit. I think leveling should be relatively quick and painless. However, I also think there should be landmarks and events going on as you do it. For me being able to see my character advance and get stronger is important. This was TERRIBLE in FFXI because each level meant almost nothing (other than often times less exp per mob) since you only got something new every 5-15 levels, and usually it was just a new trait that you could barely notice, lol. In WoW this is(was?) great, each level you would get a talent point to make yourself stronger, and there are so many abilities you get a new one all the time as well. Your character progressed wonderfully, even at a fast pace.

The problem with creating that big epic group party experience is that it so easily gets exploited, like many things in MMO's. It's either hard as a party and you have parties that always wait to get the flavor of the patch job in the group (need BRD and RDM, have Ridill war!) or it's easy and you basically just have 1-3 members leech exp because you go with just about anything. Neither one is that terribly interesting, unless you're one of those rare people that have a full party of their own already.

The easy solution, and by far the best given all the other things that need to be fixed in FFXIV, is to just go with the quick, streamlined, headache-less system and let people get to the end-game, where there is ALWAYS an abundance of players, and add content there. Because that's the only place you can be sure will always have a population necessary for completing tasks.
____________________________
Ladyofhonor: 99THF/RUN
101+7 Alchemy
Zilart/CoP/ToAU complete.
Mandau 119
#60 Nov 10 2011 at 8:06 PM Rating: Default
The point of my last post was not that one system is better than the other, it was merely to demonstrate a design difference wherein one system rewards "starting over" and the other does not. Once you reach max levels there is, or rather will be, ample to do and reasons, we hope, to continue logging in each day (talking about XIV here). But if they want players to return to lvl1 and essentially start over then there needs to be more than "Run from Hub A to Hub B and kill random mobs for hours without any direction or purpose other than XP gain." Now, while many of us don't mind, or even enjoy this, most do not. That does not make them lesser people / players, it simply means that what they consider "entertainment" is different from some of us masochists do. Currently the only escape / relief from the current leveling system is PLing - which there are also up and down feelings about.

Edited, Nov 10th 2011 9:07pm by Dyrwydi
____________________________
Success is a journey, not a destination - Failure is a destination achieved by ending the journey.
#61 Nov 10 2011 at 9:22 PM Rating: Good
****
4,146 posts
SirEaglestrike wrote:
Otherwise you need, at minimum, the WoW dungeon finder mechanic to find you a party because there will be so few people at any given level. Why would you build a game around a one-time event? It doesn't even help the game, because then people go all "oh the game was so much better back when it first started" and they'll never be able to have that again because it ONLY HAPPENS ONCE.


Maybe you forgot about the mechanic where you need to level several jobs to be effective at all of them? If it weren't for GoV and FoV being repeatable in XI you could probably still find people in the dunes. Wouldn't be as busy as when the game had 400k subs but you can still find entire alliances buried in gusgen or garliage leveling in XI. Should XIV get to a point where they have enough players to make a difference, I'd imagine you'd see the same thing there.
____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#62 Nov 10 2011 at 9:39 PM Rating: Decent
****
4,447 posts
FilthMcNasty wrote:
SirEaglestrike wrote:
Otherwise you need, at minimum, the WoW dungeon finder mechanic to find you a party because there will be so few people at any given level. Why would you build a game around a one-time event? It doesn't even help the game, because then people go all "oh the game was so much better back when it first started" and they'll never be able to have that again because it ONLY HAPPENS ONCE.


Maybe you forgot about the mechanic where you need to level several jobs to be effective at all of them? If it weren't for GoV and FoV being repeatable in XI you could probably still find people in the dunes. Wouldn't be as busy as when the game had 400k subs but you can still find entire alliances buried in gusgen or garliage leveling in XI. Should XIV get to a point where they have enough players to make a difference, I'd imagine you'd see the same thing there.


Again, that population still died out after a couple years, it elongated some of the process, but it still all died off because once people leveled what they had to, they were done, never to return to that level again.

The only reason alliances are in gusgen/garliage is a combination of level sync and FoV/GoV exploitation. Which falls under my "easy for everyone" situation because there is absolutely no effort involved in these groups. This also only happens because server merges brought servers to extremely high populations in some situations. And again, just look at the make-up, Abyssea, given its large, large number of bosses and things to do, are packed on many servers during peak times and there is heavy competition for them (to the point they had to add a bunch of items to additional bosses). It's a top-heavy game, because, dun dun duh~ all MMO's become top-heavy eventually. Make the way up painless and the top the best it can possibly be and you have yourself a successful game.
____________________________
Ladyofhonor: 99THF/RUN
101+7 Alchemy
Zilart/CoP/ToAU complete.
Mandau 119
#63 Nov 11 2011 at 1:09 AM Rating: Decent
****
4,146 posts
SirEaglestrike wrote:
Again, that population still died out after a couple years, it elongated some of the process, but it still all died off because once people leveled what they had to, they were done, never to return to that level again.


The population died down because people didn't want to play anymore for whatever reason. It wasn't for lack of people to group with so I'm not sure why you're trying to connect those dots.

SirEaglestrike wrote:
The only reason alliances are in gusgen/garliage is a combination of level sync and FoV/GoV exploitation.


They're there to level up jobs and no, it's not an exploit. XI is a different beast because it's been around nearly a decade and there is enough content that leveling doesn't need to be a focus anymore. There is no need to force players into that timesink when there is plenty of it elsewhere in the game; most of it more fun or at the least, more engaging than beating down the same mob repeatedly.

SirEaglestrike wrote:
This also only happens because server merges brought servers to extremely high populations in some situations... Abyssea, given its large, large number of bosses and things to do, are packed on many servers during peak times and there is heavy competition for them (to the point they had to add a bunch of items to additional bosses).

Take a walk around Vana'diel sometime. There are scores of empty camps at any given time to level in. The servers are no more full than they were at XI's peak subscription days and back then, there were not nearly as many leveling options.

The placement of AF items(stones/cards/jewels ect.) on multiple mobs isn't relief from over-population, it's relief from competition on magian trial mobs. Mannequins across Vana'diel end up being the proud recipient of random +2 AF gear because mobs are camped for trials. There is overcrowding sometimes, but it really isn't all that much of an issue since you can get a lot done in a short amount of time. They also wanted to make it easier for people to get their items completed.

Edited, Nov 11th 2011 2:28am by FilthMcNasty
____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#64 Nov 11 2011 at 6:25 AM Rating: Default
**
412 posts
Why bother leveling up then? They should simply abolish levels all together and make it so you learn skills through pieces of armor.
____________________________
They appeared from the sky, the one without a heart... "Omega"...And the one who followed it..."Shinryuu"...
Final Fantasy 5
#65 Nov 11 2011 at 6:30 AM Rating: Default
**
412 posts
Weapon proficiency should make a return.
____________________________
They appeared from the sky, the one without a heart... "Omega"...And the one who followed it..."Shinryuu"...
Final Fantasy 5
#66 Nov 11 2011 at 9:38 AM Rating: Decent
****
4,447 posts
FilthMcNasty wrote:
The population died down because people didn't want to play anymore for whatever reason. It wasn't for lack of people to group with so I'm not sure why you're trying to connect those dots.


You keep looking through those rose colored glasses. A couple years after launch it wasn't difficult at all to be seeking for hours, and hours. That's not "plenty of people to play with". Technically you could be seeking for hours even at launch, but that was based on class discrimination (which was part of one of my earlier points). I leveled my PLD before utsusemi completely took over and when PLD's were still considered solid for XP parties and I did not get instant groups. People don't play MMO's for hours at a time anymore, they do it for a couple hours. Half that time spent seeking is unacceptable in the current era of gaming.

FilthMcNasty wrote:
They're there to level up jobs and no, it's not an exploit. XI is a different beast because it's been around nearly a decade and there is enough content that leveling doesn't need to be a focus anymore. There is no need to force players into that timesink when there is plenty of it elsewhere in the game; most of it more fun or at the least, more engaging than beating down the same mob repeatedly.


Oh please, it's extremely simple, mindless grinding that has no risk and good reward. Original FFXI devs would not have allowed alliances to be able to do it, but current devs don't care and do whatever will keep people playing.

And the point of MMO's now is to NOT HAVE OBVIOUS TIMESINKS. That is what has changed. Why play a game that throws timesinks at you at the very start when you can play games that don't have timesinks until you get to the end?

FilthMcNasty wrote:
Take a walk around Vana'diel sometime. There are scores of empty camps at any given time to level in. The servers are no more full than they were at XI's peak subscription days and back then, there were not nearly as many leveling options.

The placement of AF items(stones/cards/jewels ect.) on multiple mobs isn't relief from over-population, it's relief from competition on magian trial mobs. Mannequins across Vana'diel end up being the proud recipient of random +2 AF gear because mobs are camped for trials. There is overcrowding sometimes, but it really isn't all that much of an issue since you can get a lot done in a short amount of time. They also wanted to make it easier for people to get their items completed.


Competition and over-population have a direct correlation. And this also highlights a problem you can easily see through all of FFXI's past: Players always take the easiest way out. There are what, 3-4 places exp parties go to level up in Abyssea? All those zones and they do worms or puks for the most part? And leveling up people had a specific path they almost always followed, to face the "easiest" mobs and they wouldn't stray from that course even under heavy competition sometimes (hi2u colibri camps / Garliage bats). There is little point to offering a huge, diverse world for party leveling when a very, VERY small part of the population will actually utilize it.
____________________________
Ladyofhonor: 99THF/RUN
101+7 Alchemy
Zilart/CoP/ToAU complete.
Mandau 119
#67 Nov 11 2011 at 12:50 PM Rating: Decent
****
4,146 posts
SirEaglestrike wrote:
You keep looking through those rose colored glasses.


Ask around. My glasses are probably the least rose colored on these forums. So much so that I can make a completely relevant post in a topic and someone will come along and flame me for something I said in a topic completely unrelated.
The point I made was that the population didn't die off because everyone capped their jobs or their was no one to level with. I'm still standing.

Even with the Dungeon Finder tool in WoW it wasn't uncommon to wait 45 mins or more for a group if you were a DPS. MMOs are social games. Use the power of communication to find people to group with rather than sitting around for hours. Same goes for XI. Make an effort, make an impression and maybe even make a friend or two in the process.

SirEaglestrike wrote:
Oh please, it's extremely simple, mindless grinding that has no risk and good reward. Original FFXI devs would not have allowed alliances to be able to do it, but current devs don't care and do whatever will keep people playing.


Being easy doesn't mean it's an exploit. Again, back when there wasn't a sh*t ton of endgame content but a sh*t ton of players, it was to their advantage to keep people in midgame for a long time. Now that there is nearly endless content that people can do at endgame in smaller numbers it doesn't matter nearly as much.

SirEaglestrike wrote:
And this also highlights a problem you can easily see through all of FFXI's past: Players always take the easiest way out. There are what, 3-4 places exp parties go to level up in Abyssea? All those zones and they do worms or puks for the most part?


You can exp on nearly anything in abyssea. The exception are the few mobs that don't allow you to build lights, but there are other ways of achieving that. Mobs spawn fast enough that you can have two groups or more in some cases at a single mob type camp.

You're still missing the point. Players have a choice. If you want to go grind on something that you don't have an optimal group setup for than you can. If you want to travel across the world to exp rather than just walking outside city gates, you can. If all players wanted the 'easy way out' then there wouldn't have been a ********* about PL in the first place.

Edited, Nov 11th 2011 2:22pm by FilthMcNasty
____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#68 Nov 11 2011 at 1:34 PM Rating: Default
FilthMcNasty wrote:
SirEaglestrike wrote:
You keep looking through those rose colored glasses.


Ask around. My glasses are probably the least rose colored on these forums. So much so that I can make a completely relevant post in a topic and someone will come along and flame me for something I said in a topic completely unrelated.
The point I made was that the population didn't die off because everyone capped their jobs or their was no one to level with. I'm still standing.


Confirmed - Oh, and *Flame*

FilthMcNasty wrote:
Even with the Dungeon Finder tool in WoW it wasn't uncommon to wait 45 mins or more for a group if you were a DPS. MMOs are social games. Use the power of communication to find people to group with rather than sitting around for hours. Same goes for XI. Make an effort, make an impression and maybe even make a friend or two in the process.


This is one of the things that drew me back to XIV. WoW's system has become so anti-social that you could walk through town and easily rub shoulders with 1000 people you've never grouped with or seen before - much less talked to.

FilthMcNasty wrote:
You're still missing the point. Players have a choice. If you want to go grind on something that you don't have an optimal group setup for than you can. If you want to travel across the world to exp rather than just walking outside city gates, you can. If all players wanted the 'easy way out' then there wouldn't have been a ********* about PL in the first place.


I quoted this part for truth. Complaints about the lack of people to level with seem kind of short-sighted at this point in the game, with so few people actually logging on to "level," getting PL'd is often the best way to ensure that you get to participate in group activities within a decent time-frame. This coming from the guy whose highest level DoW/DoM class is only 27. Now, I can understand the frustration for those who, like I generally do, focus on crafting and gathering - there is no PL option for us, and the best we have to look forward to in "end-game" (as announced yesterday) is sweat-shop style boat and airship construction or gardening in our homes. Regardless, I have no issue with the idea of friends helping friends where they can.
____________________________
Success is a journey, not a destination - Failure is a destination achieved by ending the journey.
#69 Nov 11 2011 at 2:40 PM Rating: Decent
****
4,447 posts
FilthMcNasty wrote:
You're still missing the point. Players have a choice. If you want to go grind on something that you don't have an optimal group setup for than you can. If you want to travel across the world to exp rather than just walking outside city gates, you can. If all players wanted the 'easy way out' then there wouldn't have been a ********* about PL in the first place.

Edited, Nov 11th 2011 2:22pm by FilthMcNasty


And you are missing mine. Why take the time to create a system that gives everyone a large amount of variety when the vast majority of people will simply take the one quickest/easiest way out?

You are completely right that there are a large number of abyssea exp camps in FFXI, how many are used? Only the few deemed best, all others are ignored. That's been static throughout all of FFXI in where you go to exp and how you do it. It actually offers very little variety because you're always forced into doing what the group wants, which will be:

10-20 dunes
10-14 lizards
14-17 crabs
17-20 pugs

20-25 qufim
18-22 worms
22-24 crabs
24-25 pugs

jungles -> citadel -> cnest -> etc.

There were always a ton of options at every level, but people only bothered to go through the few they knew, they didn't want to explore. Many people talk about loving to explore, but you're a minority, or at least you don't actually want to when you want to exp.

So we come to WoW's changed stance on raiding after BC. Why create content that so few will actually play? Back in BC Blizzard took a lot of time and effort into creating the Sunwell Raid, and something like 3% of the playerbase even saw it. They went "uhh...why did we spend most of an entire patch cycle creating content so few people play?" and changed how raiding works. Got them to their peak scores in WotLK (despite some QQing from "hardcore" fans).

It's the same principle here, why create content for a small minority? Take care of the big picture first.
____________________________
Ladyofhonor: 99THF/RUN
101+7 Alchemy
Zilart/CoP/ToAU complete.
Mandau 119
#70 Nov 11 2011 at 3:35 PM Rating: Good
SirEaglestrike wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
You're still missing the point. Players have a choice. If you want to go grind on something that you don't have an optimal group setup for than you can. If you want to travel across the world to exp rather than just walking outside city gates, you can. If all players wanted the 'easy way out' then there wouldn't have been a ********* about PL in the first place.

Edited, Nov 11th 2011 2:22pm by FilthMcNasty
And you are missing mine. Why take the time to create a system that gives everyone a large amount of variety when the vast majority of people will simply take the one quickest/easiest way out?

You are completely right that there are a large number of abyssea exp camps in FFXI, how many are used? Only the few deemed best, all others are ignored. That's been static throughout all of FFXI in where you go to exp and how you do it. It actually offers very little variety because you're always forced into doing what the group wants, which will be:

10-20 dunes
10-14 lizards
14-17 crabs
17-20 pugs

20-25 qufim
18-22 worms
22-24 crabs
24-25 pugs

jungles -> citadel -> cnest -> etc.

There were always a ton of options at every level, but people only bothered to go through the few they knew, they didn't want to explore. Many people talk about loving to explore, but you're a minority, or at least you don't actually want to when you want to exp.

So we come to WoW's changed stance on raiding after BC. Why create content that so few will actually play? Back in BC Blizzard took a lot of time and effort into creating the Sunwell Raid, and something like 3% of the playerbase even saw it. They went "uhh...why did we spend most of an entire patch cycle creating content so few people play?" and changed how raiding works. Got them to their peak scores in WotLK (despite some QQing from "hardcore" fans).

It's the same principle here, why create content for a small minority? Take care of the big picture first.


I think you're missing each-others points on this. One is saying "why create the content if people are just going to find the fastest way through" and the other is saying "why take away the fastest way through unless you have content." First we need to establish the fact that "zones" are not content. Content is what draws people to a zone. When the choice is Zone 1, 2 or 3 the option chosen will always be the one that is easiest to access. But if you put in active content (dungeons, quests, etc) people will choose whichever they enjoy the most. FilthyMcNasty is right, unless SE is going to add actual content to the zones, leave PLing as it is. SirEaglestrike is right, take PLing away once there is content worthy of enjoying while you level. At least, that is how I see both of your arguments boiling down.
____________________________
Success is a journey, not a destination - Failure is a destination achieved by ending the journey.
#71 Nov 11 2011 at 5:11 PM Rating: Decent
****
4,146 posts
SirEaglestrike wrote:
And you are missing mine. Why take the time to create a system that gives everyone a large amount of variety when the vast majority of people will simply take the one quickest/easiest way out?


Several reasons. XI being group centric, there are many more variables you have to consider. Mob type(job) and party composition, level range, travel time, zone distribution(level ranges for local mobs) among other things all need to be considered. If all they made were colibri at varying levels in one big training zone to level on, where would you farm for materials? I could go on...

SirEaglestrike wrote:
You are completely right that there are a large number of abyssea exp camps in FFXI, how many are used? Only the few deemed best, all others are ignored. That's been static throughout all of FFXI in where you go to exp and how you do it.


And for obvious reasons. Why would you exp on mobs with dangerous tp moves or status that constantly needed to be cleared if you didn't have to? Group composition is a big factor as well. As you stated, everyone in ToAU used to merit colibri. Everyone but mages who usually chose mobs that were easier for a castercentric group to control.

As for your list of where people went to exp, it became a norm because people found something that worked well enough and were satisfied with it. To make my point...

Quote:
10-20 dunes

Maze of Shakhrami(sp) or Bubu peninsula worked just as well.
Quote:
20-25 qufim

***** tossing sneak pots trying to get past those weapons in the tunnel and the constant train of bones heading into and out of Delkfutt(remember that?)
A nice easy group of beetles right outside of J town in Sauromugue would take you through the early 20s.
Quote:
jungles

This was the easy route? **** camping those keys. A two minute walk from the previous camp would take you to the weapons in Rolanberry.
Quote:
citadel

SSG, Bibiki, BD, Zi'tah all pre expansion or Carpenter's landing or several of the newer [S] zones all work.

I'm sorry that the people you played with unwilling to explore or try new camps, but I found that some of the best groups I had were in these places. Many of the friends I met along the way traveled with me through these areas searching for options either when we were bored with crabs or there were already groups in the normal camps.

You went from...
SirEaglestrike wrote:
Why take the time to create a system that gives everyone a large amount of variety when the vast majority of people will simply take the one quickest/easiest way out?

to...
SirEaglestrike wrote:
why create content for a small minority?

Pick a side to argue. I'll stay in the middle.



____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#72 Nov 11 2011 at 8:20 PM Rating: Good
Avatar
13 posts
I just came back to try again. Dang at level 14 I can't even do a level 10 leve quest. I don't understand that. I chose the solo, level 10, took guardian aspect and got my **** handed to me. The last time I played was when it first came out and leve quests were a way a person could solo. Is that now out of the question?

Edited, Nov 11th 2011 9:21pm by BritCrey
#73 Nov 11 2011 at 8:21 PM Rating: Decent
Avatar
13 posts
oops. I meant at level 14 Pug I can't do a level 10 leve quest.

Edited, Nov 11th 2011 9:32pm by BritCrey
#74 Nov 11 2011 at 9:18 PM Rating: Excellent
****
9,526 posts
TwiddleDee wrote:
Viertel wrote:
I'll take varied and more plentiful endgame content versus a ton of leveling for no purpose other than to slow people down. Leveling is a time-sink and a means to an end and it always has been both in online and offline RPGs. To pretend otherwise is stupid.


How can you have a "varied and more plentiful endgame content" if the "ton of leveling" is not fun, attractive and welcoming making people invest the time to hit the high levels were "varied and more plentiful endgame content" begins? Everything in a MMO is like a stair case you can't have steps 1-50 missing, broken, and unpleasant, and expected people to just start climbing.


this.

I think both of you are right here. Grinding endlessly is no fun. I have no problem with a level system where levels come fairly quickly - but if content is going to primarily be focussed on end game, why make leveling (without a PL) painful?

I don't have a problem with PLs at all, they couldn't bother me less, but it is ludicrous to scale the leveling curve based on people being carried to end game.

Honestly, this isn't hard - the XIV devs should just look at XI to see the beginnings of a solid leveling system that can work both during high population and low. I think they should go farther than XI in making the levels come quickly, however.

I know for myself, I have three jobs that can passably perform in endgame style content. I can also solo a great amount of storyline content and solo nms and battlefields.

I am nowhere near the best at anything, and feel no need to be the best at anything. I spend my days doing Walk of Echoes, and Campaign and leveling one of the 18 jobs I haven't capped yet. I raise money for nice armor and do dynamis when my friends are into it.

I play and play without being forced to only spend all my time grinding levels. I feel like there is a great variety of things to do. Learning blue magic, soloing missions, doing quests, leveling puppetmaster, soloing NMs, doing campaign, doing WoE, doing dynamis, etc etc.

That is what XIV needs - not to choke its players on boring grindy leveling content, but to give them fun things to do, even if they are the type of person that likes to solo as well as do group things.
____________________________
lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#75 Nov 11 2011 at 11:51 PM Rating: Good
**
640 posts
I felt that the leve change helped me out on getting started with this game again (suddenly I could do 60 leve quests in a row instead of just 8!) or at least until my computer stopped working for unknown reasons. It did feel like I had an easier way to progress or at least knew what direction I should go in. I always thought that it was never clear what you should do in the game as it never bothers to tell you what to do next, but they at least try much harder to tell you unlike FF11 did.

Some of the monster placement do feel like the current FF11 team's decision to add level 90+ monsters in beginner areas. Outside of Ul'dah I was minding my own business on a level 18 pugilist until I found a cave which I thought was interesting since all I've really seen so far is copypasted rock/sand terrain. I noticed after a while that the level 1 spot I usually level up on was identical to the level 10+ one, only rotated 90 degrees. Anyway, that mine wasn't far away from the city itself but had level 30-40 monsters in it! So it was clear that I would have to wait a very long time before I revisit that place. After a while I decided to go visit an icon which seemed like a nice cabin which wasn't far away from Ul'dah either, once again that place was filled with level 30-40 monsters. My point is that I feel the only thing I've experienced so far is the boring terrain surrounding Ul'dah for 20 levels, doesn't seem to help that in order to become good I have to level up some other classes too in the same areas.

That's sort of the current impression I have about the game, spend a lot of time in the beginner areas before you can go to the more interesting ones. I guess I could powerlevel my character up to 50 if I knew someone, but I wouldn't know how to make money in that case to fund a such character.

#76 Nov 11 2011 at 11:54 PM Rating: Excellent
****
9,526 posts
unfortunately there are not very many "more interesting places" atm - although coerthas is pretty
____________________________
lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


1 2 Next »
This forum is read only
This Forum is Read Only!
Recent Visitors: 25 All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (25)