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I need help with a definition of exploiting.Follow

#1 Nov 08 2011 at 1:15 PM Rating: Decent
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I know I'll get flamed for this, but I doesn't bother me as I've searched through these forums as best I can on a unpaid account and can't get a great answer from here or google to make me satisfied.

TLDR: You should reserve a comment on another thread please. By commenting I assume you read this and understand what I'm trying to find out and ask. Thanks.

I do request that we keep anger/hate to a minimum and have a polite discussion here about it.

I'm bring this to light as I went through the forums of FFXI as well and found that Salvage issue.

For those unfamiliar with both of them here they are:
(Please note I've written them out based on my own opinion as a designer and player)

Quote:
FFXIV:
PL(Exploit or Design)

1) Invite r50 to party.
* Game design. You can invite anyone to your party at any time.

2) Let r50 claim all monsters in area your at.
* Game design. Party can claim more than one monster.

3) Oust r50.
* Game design. To faciliate ease of play SE implemented ability to kick/leave from parties whenever needed.

4) Party keeps claim, r50 keeps hate.
* Claim: Game Design. To prevent the party from losing hate on the mob, let's say even a NM, left in in case of the member having to leave or dc.
* Hate: Game Design. It is programmed in their to be just that. However did the most damage/hate building gets the full hate of mobs. Works the same way if they had mass cured a party while never in it. They will get the hate.

5) Invite 8th member at same level range as party.
* Game Design. See previous about inviting members mid battle, but this I could concede is more broken than anything I said previously.
(I would personally opt for it that if you join a party midstream you don't get exp points/loot for anything already claimed to the party, but that would be alot of checks on SE's side.)

6) r50 Kills.
* Game Design. We know the player can kill anything anytime (providing of course he/she doesn't die ^^)

7) Party get's chains++.
* Game Design. Claimed monster dies. Claimee's get rewards.


Is all of this intended? Yes and No.
According to StateAlchemist's post this would be the intended design:
Quote:
Best legitimate PL strategy I have seen atm is:
#1 Buff puller.
#2 Puller aggros all mobs while on chocobo.
#3 Puller hops off and uses an ability like Featherfoot or whatever. Anything works. (my edit: this get's claim of entire mob group that agroed)
#4 PL drops a heal on puller gets all hate.
#5 PL kills all mobs.
#6 Repeat.

The method I mentioned seems to add in one extra process that by all rights and standards was programmed into the game. No it might not be intended but is it really a true exploit? I have a hard time figuring out why it's an exploit? I ask for the communities help to respectfully answer that.

Quote:
FFXI:
Salvage Drops:

From what I understand you would go in with full group. Once inside the group would split and then go on killing things.

What this would do is make things "double" drop into both loot slots whenever somethign was killed. Essentially "duping" items.

Game Design:
Dropping/Reforming Parties

Game Flaw/Programming Issue:
Getting double drops to multiple loot lists


I completely understand why this was an exploit because it clearly violated a flaw in the game. Common sense would dictate (imho) more clearly that his is a violation and the aforementioned is not.

I can admit I see where everyone's coming from; and I can respect both sides. This is a really big grey line that is going to get bigger when PC addon's come next year and PS3 will not be getting them. (that's a whole other topic).

I appreciate your help and future responses.

Thanks!

Edited, Nov 8th 2011 2:23pm by AndroidCat
#2 Nov 08 2011 at 3:11 PM Rating: Decent
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The easiest way to identify this as an exploit.
Can you invite a person to your party when you are in combat?
(Answer is: No)

Are you getting Experience for someone outside your party claiming and killing the mob?
(Answer is: Yes, even though they were in your party when they claimed the mob).


So, if the above mentioned process allows you to gain EXP, and add an additional member to your party, you are implying that you are a) In Combat, and b) performing an act that is not allowed in combat. Hence, an exploit.

Yoshi, and a couple of other SE posts in the official forums have discussed the fact that the intent was not to allow players to gain experience without being involved in the fight.
So, again, we get to the intent of the development team vs the actions performed by the group.
Yes, you are allowed to perform the actions you described, however, the actions you describe go directly against the developers intent as outlined by their own statements. Hence, exploit.

But, in the case of what you are describing, it is blatantly an exploit, and yes, people can try and argue any way they want to, but the intent was clear, and this is definitely against the intent. If it wasn't, you wouldn't need to have the person drop party, or add them to the party. Both events should be arbitrary if the intent was to allow High Level people to kill mobs for you risk free.
#3 Nov 08 2011 at 3:25 PM Rating: Good
Exploit: There are many definitions depending on how it is used, but generally in this context:

....exploit
Quote:
per http://www.thefreedictionary.com/exploit

verb
1. take advantage of, abuse, use, manipulate, milk, misuse, dump on (slang, chiefly U.S.), ill-treat, **** on (taboo slang), play on or upon:

1. to take advantage of (a person, situation, etc.), esp unethically or unjustly for one's own ends

2. To make use of selfishly or unethically: ..... See Synonyms at manipulate.


In other words, ask yourself these questions:

1. Does the action go against the intent of the author/designer's original intent?
2. Does the action give you an unfair advantage over other players?
3. Is there a risk associated with the action (i.e penalty vs reward)?
4. Could someone else legitimately look at the action as good?
5. Have you been told it is an exploit?

If you answer yes to any of the questions, then yes, it is an exploit of this definition. Just because others are doing it, does not make it right.

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#4 Nov 08 2011 at 3:37 PM Rating: Good
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rfolkker wrote:
The easiest way to identify this as an exploit.
Can you invite a person to your party when you are in combat?
(Answer is: No)

Are you getting Experience for someone outside your party claiming and killing the mob?
(Answer is: Yes, even though they were in your party when they claimed the mob).


So, if the above mentioned process allows you to gain EXP, and add an additional member to your party, you are implying that you are a) In Combat, and b) performing an act that is not allowed in combat. Hence, an exploit.

Yoshi, and a couple of other SE posts in the official forums have discussed the fact that the intent was not to allow players to gain experience without being involved in the fight.
So, again, we get to the intent of the development team vs the actions performed by the group.
Yes, you are allowed to perform the actions you described, however, the actions you describe go directly against the developers intent as outlined by their own statements. Hence, exploit.

But, in the case of what you are describing, it is blatantly an exploit, and yes, people can try and argue any way they want to, but the intent was clear, and this is definitely against the intent. If it wasn't, you wouldn't need to have the person drop party, or add them to the party. Both events should be arbitrary if the intent was to allow High Level people to kill mobs for you risk free.


I appreciate this answer and it does help me in thinking about my own personal dilemma. But I have just one correction.

While in battle you CAN in fact invite someone to battle. That restriction is now gone. Anyone can enter/leave whenever they want to. :)
#5 Nov 08 2011 at 3:50 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
The easiest way to identify this as an exploit.
Can you invite a person to your party when you are in combat?
(Answer is: No)

Are you getting Experience for someone outside your party claiming and killing the mob?
(Answer is: Yes, even though they were in your party when they claimed the mob).


So, if the above mentioned process allows you to gain EXP, and add an additional member to your party, you are implying that you are a) In Combat, and b) performing an act that is not allowed in combat. Hence, an exploit.


I don't follow, because the answer to "Can you invite a person to your party when you are in combat?" is "Yes", not "No"?
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#6 Nov 08 2011 at 4:08 PM Rating: Decent
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se does not have clear definition because the tos states they can ban you for whatever reason they like. they wont tell you whats right and wrong because they dont care. Sry but its true, many saw this first hand in the ffxi general discussion of people who got banned for no reason. I know some of them were lying, but that thread was massive, all with people who said they got banned and they had no idea why.
#7 Nov 08 2011 at 4:41 PM Rating: Decent
Exploit in it's very nature indicates that someone is using the rules to achieve something that the rules were not designed to take into account. As a general rule though, there is not a cut-and-dry answer to what is or is not an exploit. This is an ethics question that ultimately is only up to those who make the rules to decide. I recall one such incident a few months after Sea opened up in XI. BLMs would stack behind a portion of wall where the game allowed minimal line of sight and AM nuke the boss into oblivion, granted it still took them like 8 hours to accomplish, but since the boss would not / could not walk around the wall the mages were safe... going from memory here, someone can correct the specifics if they feel it is necessary. Did the game allow the players to move their characters behind the wall? Yes. Did the game allow the mages to cast from behind said wall? Yes. Did SE consider this a bannable exploit? Yes, the entire shell received a ban for the incident.

In real life we are faced with similar "exploits" and judiciously punished for them as well. A 2 mile stretch of road has a speed limit of 70mph. It's dark, windy and pouring rain. The speed limit is clearly marked as 70mph, and you're doing 68mph. Police officer pulls you over for driving unsafely - breaking the ethics of safe driving - exploiting the law/rules in a way that it was not designed for.

Edited, Nov 8th 2011 5:42pm by Dyrwydi
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#8 Nov 08 2011 at 5:09 PM Rating: Decent
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It pretty much the dont do drugs speech even though u see people doing it. people always bot, hack, cheat, and will always find exploits in games like these. best thing you can do, enjoy the game for what it is.
#9 Nov 08 2011 at 5:56 PM Rating: Good
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Solitary events listed without context as to how they relate to each other regardless of if all of them are valid actions allowed by game rules is a poor way to decide if something is an exploit, logically speaking.

It's no different than the following:

1) I can walk inside a store.
*allowed by store rules

2) I can pick up and hold a loaf of bread.
*allowed by store rules

3) I can leave the store without making a purchase.
*allowed by store rules

Ergo, given the above, I must be allowed to enter a store, pick up a loaf of bread and hold it while I leave the store without making a purchase, it is not stealing.

Edited, Nov 8th 2011 6:59pm by Whales
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#10 Nov 08 2011 at 6:15 PM Rating: Good
Definitely an exploit. There is no question about it.
#11 Nov 08 2011 at 7:02 PM Rating: Good
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Whales wrote:
Solitary events listed without context as to how they relate to each other regardless of if all of them are valid actions allowed by game rules is a poor way to decide if something is an exploit, logically speaking.

It's no different than the following:

1) I can walk inside a store.
*allowed by store rules

2) I can pick up and hold a loaf of bread.
*allowed by store rules

3) I can leave the store without making a purchase.
*allowed by store rules

Ergo, given the above, I must be allowed to enter a store, pick up a loaf of bread and hold it while I leave the store without making a purchase, it is not stealing.]


Wonderful reply. :)
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#12 Nov 08 2011 at 8:22 PM Rating: Decent
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River75, Tarutaru Murder Suspect wrote:
In other words, ask yourself these questions:

1. Does the action go against the intent of the author/designer's original intent?
2. Does the action give you an unfair advantage over other players?
3. Is there a risk associated with the action (i.e penalty vs reward)?
4. Could someone else legitimately look at the action as good?
5. Have you been told it is an exploit?


1. See FFXI Ninja

2. I'd think it's more a matter of does it interfere with other players. I leveled fishing in XI which allowed me to make more money than players who didn't. It's not really an unfair advantage because anyone with the time could level fishing but at the same time, anyone who wanted to use the steps above to get exp could.

3. Doesn't really matter. Using terrain to kite mobs without them being able to attack, you had risk if you didn't keep your space.

Exploits are usually some tactic that circumvents a game mechanic. Technically being able to invite 'in combat' isn't allowed so that is the only step in that equation that is an exploit. Could the group get the exp without inviting that last member? Drop that step and I don't see an issue.


Edited, Nov 8th 2011 9:23pm by FilthMcNasty
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#13 Nov 08 2011 at 9:03 PM Rating: Good
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AndroidCat wrote:
Quote:
3) Oust r50.
* Game design. To faciliate ease of play SE implemented ability to kick/leave from parties whenever needed.

What would happen if the r50 did not leave the party? Would the amount of xp or sp or whatever it is now be decreased for the other members of the group? If so, then one is trying to circumvent something that may have been put in the game to prevent or hinder exactly what one is doing.

Edited, Nov 8th 2011 10:07pm by MrTalos
#14 Nov 09 2011 at 3:30 AM Rating: Good
Whales wrote:
Solitary events listed without context as to how they relate to each other regardless of if all of them are valid actions allowed by game rules is a poor way to decide if something is an exploit, logically speaking.

It's no different than the following:

1) I can walk inside a store.
*allowed by store rules

2) I can pick up and hold a loaf of bread.
*allowed by store rules

3) I can leave the store without making a purchase.
*allowed by store rules

Ergo, given the above, I must be allowed to enter a store, pick up a loaf of bread and hold it while I leave the store without making a purchase, it is not stealing.



I also agree, great reply
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#15 Nov 09 2011 at 3:56 AM Rating: Good
FilthMcNasty wrote:
River75, Tarutaru Murder Suspect wrote:
In other words, ask yourself these questions:

1. Does the action go against the intent of the author/designer's original intent?
2. Does the action give you an unfair advantage over other players?
3. Is there a risk associated with the action (i.e penalty vs reward)?
4. Could someone else legitimately look at the action as good?
5. Have you been told it is an exploit?


1. See FFXI Ninja

2. I'd think it's more a matter of does it interfere with other players.

Huh? Not really, a party claiming mobs may be seen as an interference to the solo crowd, however, this is not an exploit.
FilthMcNasty wrote:
I leveled fishing in XI which allowed me to make more money than players who didn't. It's not really an unfair advantage because anyone with the time could level fishing
Allow me to interject here, you are right, not an exploit, leveling a job that others did not want to take the time to level is not an exploit in the terms of manipulation. You used a game mechanic that was designed and used as intended, only others did not want to do such, and therefore you ended up with a lot of gil based on others laziness yet high demand for the item(s) you were selling, supply vs demand. Did this give you an advantage over other players, yes, unfair, no! You used the game mechanics as intended with a bonus outcome based on the inaction of others.
FilthMcNasty wrote:
but at the same time, anyone who wanted to use the steps above to get exp could.

Not sure if this comment goes along with the fishing argument or what the OP is asking. If it is related to the fishing argument, no comment, you are correct. However, if it is related to the OP's statements, then I disagree with you. Inviting a 50 to the party then kicking them is circumventing the last patch for PL, manipulation of the claiming system, and giving an unfair advantage to the party that chooses to do this vs parties that play within the context of the design. This is a clear cut example of an exploit. Did you catch the words "manipulate"...there is your answer.
Now as State has said, having someone OUTSIDE the party throwing heals and buffs is not an exploit, because the character remains outside the party at all times. This is no different that I seeing you dead on the map and raising you, or healing you while you are fighting your leve monsters (which I do from time to time while running around). However, this does not neccessarily give the partying members an unfair advantage because the character outside the party never pulled the hate thus giving those inside a free ride. There is still a large risk involved in these mechanics.

FilthMcNasty wrote:
3. Doesn't really matter. Using terrain to kite mobs without them being able to attack, you had risk if you didn't keep your space.

It was hard to word that question, but the risk is with your service account, levels, etc. If there is a risk or a notion that it is an exploit, then it probally is

FilthMcNasty wrote:
Exploits are usually some tactic that circumvents a game mechanic. Technically being able to invite 'in combat' isn't allowed so that is the only step in that equation that is an exploit. Could the group get the exp without inviting that last member? Drop that step and I don't see an issue.


Here it seems the consensus is that inviting the 50 to the party with the intent that they will pull the hate and then drop party is the issue. This is the exploit, manipulation of the mechanics. It circumvents the mechanics that were put into place in 1.19a to stop or slow down the PL. The drop/join was initated to be used during disconnection, if infact you can join during combat, i.e while engaged in a fight. (Having a party in an area or between engagements does not constitute inviting or dropping during combat)

Overall, to the OP, if you have to ask, start a thread about the issue, then it is probally an exploit. You are trying to justify your actions based on enough positive opinions/support of the issue. You have been told it is an exploit and if you end up with penalties in the end for using it, then the blame will lie on you.
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#16 Nov 09 2011 at 10:13 AM Rating: Excellent
This ruins the entire system of partying in FFXIV. How can you say it does not effect other players? It certainly does.

There are no level 15 party shouts. The people who know what they are doing and create those parties PL'ed past level 15 in the last couple months.

There are no level 20 party shouts. The people who know what they are doing and create those parties PL'ed past level 20 in the last couple months.

There are no level 25 party shouts. The people who know what they are doing and create those parties PL'ed past level 25 in the last couple months.

There are no level 30 party shouts. The people who know what they are doing and create those parties PL'ed past level 30 in the last couple months.

Go ahead, try to start a regular party for any ranks between 15-30 when you log on tonight. If you can find 8/8 players, then I am completely wrong.

If making the party proves impossible, the I ask you to reconsider if the game has been broken irrevicably by these careless mistakes stemming from the removal of the claiming system.

If your only goal in FFXIV is to beat Ifrit, then FFXIV has reduced its future playerbase to those who are satisfied with end-game activity only. I, for one, prefer partying and leveling up to have fun.

Partying and leveling up is broken as long as rampant PL'ing is available. To any who want to defend AFK PL'ing or say that "it doesn't affect other players", I tell you that you are absolutely and completely, 100% wrong.
#17 Nov 09 2011 at 10:38 AM Rating: Good
SmashingtonWho wrote:
This ruins the entire system of partying in FFXIV. How can you say it does not effect other players? It certainly does.

There are no level 15 party shouts. The people who know what they are doing and create those parties PL'ed past level 15 in the last couple months.

There are no level 20 party shouts. The people who know what they are doing and create those parties PL'ed past level 20 in the last couple months.

There are no level 25 party shouts. The people who know what they are doing and create those parties PL'ed past level 25 in the last couple months.

There are no level 30 party shouts. The people who know what they are doing and create those parties PL'ed past level 30 in the last couple months.

Go ahead, try to start a regular party for any ranks between 15-30 when you log on tonight. If you can find 8/8 players, then I am completely wrong.

If making the party proves impossible, the I ask you to reconsider if the game has been broken irrevicably by these careless mistakes stemming from the removal of the claiming system.

If your only goal in FFXIV is to beat Ifrit, then FFXIV has reduced its future playerbase to those who are satisfied with end-game activity only. I, for one, prefer partying and leveling up to have fun.

Partying and leveling up is broken as long as rampant PL'ing is available. To any who want to defend AFK PL'ing or say that "it doesn't affect other players", I tell you that you are absolutely and completely, 100% wrong.



At least on the Melmond server, there are always shouts for different rank parites. I participate in them all the time, and we have to keep turning people away because we are full. I did not even know about the exploit until posted here, and still am not going to use it. All my levels are from partying or leves, no PL'ng per se, although with the new chains, it is easy to go up a level about every 2 hrs of a full, well-balanced party.

So if on other servers there is no shouts for parties, either most of the players are already 50, or there is a lot of PL going on. Although before the patches, you could do behests and hit 1-20 in 10 hrs...So mechanics have always been messed up in the game.
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#18 Nov 09 2011 at 10:43 AM Rating: Good
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SmashingtonWho wrote:
This ruins the entire system of partying in FFXIV. How can you say it does not effect other players? It certainly does.

There are no level 15 party shouts. The people who know what they are doing and create those parties PL'ed past level 15 in the last couple months.

There are no level 20 party shouts. The people who know what they are doing and create those parties PL'ed past level 20 in the last couple months.

There are no level 25 party shouts. The people who know what they are doing and create those parties PL'ed past level 25 in the last couple months.

There are no level 30 party shouts. The people who know what they are doing and create those parties PL'ed past level 30 in the last couple months.

Go ahead, try to start a regular party for any ranks between 15-30 when you log on tonight. If you can find 8/8 players, then I am completely wrong.

If making the party proves impossible, the I ask you to reconsider if the game has been broken irrevicably by these careless mistakes stemming from the removal of the claiming system.

If your only goal in FFXIV is to beat Ifrit, then FFXIV has reduced its future playerbase to those who are satisfied with end-game activity only. I, for one, prefer partying and leveling up to have fun.

Partying and leveling up is broken as long as rampant PL'ing is available. To any who want to defend AFK PL'ing or say that "it doesn't affect other players", I tell you that you are absolutely and completely, 100% wrong.


I agree with you on this one fully. At current there's really only one efficient alternative to get 1-20 and that's pl. 20-42 can go w/o a pl, if you are willing to spend ~1h to find people to party with, which i might add is not easy considering the masses got all 50's in afk party's.
Only solution i can see to this is SE adds another 8 classes 4 DoM 4 DoW, and slow down leveling in the upper levels. The game can not succeed if you have 80% server population all 50's afk beating it like it owns them money..
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#19 Nov 09 2011 at 11:41 AM Rating: Good
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Whales wrote:
Solitary events listed without context as to how they relate to each other regardless of if all of them are valid actions allowed by game rules is a poor way to decide if something is an exploit, logically speaking.

It's no different than the following:

1) I can walk inside a store.
*allowed by store rules

2) I can pick up and hold a loaf of bread.
*allowed by store rules

3) I can leave the store without making a purchase.
*allowed by store rules

Ergo, given the above, I must be allowed to enter a store, pick up a loaf of bread and hold it while I leave the store without making a purchase, it is not stealing.

Edited, Nov 8th 2011 6:59pm by Whales


You missed a rule the store has:

4) You can not walk out of a store with an item you did not pay for.


SE does not have the rule:

You can not powerlevel by means stated in the OP of this thread.


Thus it is ok until stated otherwise by SE.
#20 Nov 09 2011 at 11:59 AM Rating: Default
DoctorMog wrote:
Whales wrote:
-snipped for space-


You missed a rule the store has:

4) You can not walk out of a store with an item you did not pay for.


SE does not have the rule:

You can not powerlevel by means stated in the OP of this thread.


Thus it is ok until stated otherwise by SE.


You disregard ethics entirely. Exploits are ethical issues, not rule breaking. If it was rule breaking then it would no longer be a discussion of exploitative actions.

ex·ploit  [ik-sploit]
verb (used with object)
1. to utilize, especially for profit; turn to practical account: to exploit a business opportunity.
2. to use selfishly for one's own ends: employers who exploit their workers.
3. to advance or further through exploitation; promote: He exploited his new movie through a series of guest appearances.

As you can see, there is not negative or illegal connotation to the word, as one would see if it involved breaking rules. Exploits are the reason for the statement:

Quote:
SQUARE ENIX MAY SUSPEND, TERMINATE, MODIFY, OR DELETE FINAL FANTASY XIV SERVICE ACCOUNTS, CHARACTERS, VIRTUAL GOODS, OR THE SERVICE ALTOGETHER, AT ANY TIME FOR ANY REASON OR FOR NO REASON, WITH OR WITHOUT NOTICE OR LIABILITY TO YOU.


Ethics is difficult to define and therefore an impossibility to quantify within a discussion that does not include the direct input of an authorized representative from SE. Therefore, use your best judgement and avoid anything that you think may be an abuse of the system.

Edited, Nov 9th 2011 1:00pm by Dyrwydi
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#21 Nov 09 2011 at 12:14 PM Rating: Good
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DoctorMog wrote:
You missed a rule the store has


I didn't miss it, I simply excluded it on purpose. Thus the entire point behind what I was saying which you caught beautifully - using solitary events and their allowed behavior in disregard as to the context of how they apply when executed together is poor reasoning when attempting to justify behavior as an exploit or not.

I make no opinion or generalization as to if the behavior in question by the OP in regards to FFXIV is allowed or not, exploit or not an exploit, I simply was commenting on the logic behind the justification of said behavior as presented.

Edited, Nov 9th 2011 1:17pm by Whales
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#22 Nov 09 2011 at 2:47 PM Rating: Decent
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River75 wrote:
Huh? Not really, a party claiming mobs may be seen as an interference to the solo crowd, however, this is not an exploit.


My point is that it doesn't affect other players and wouldn't be seen as an offense by SE.

River75 wrote:
Did this give you an advantage over other players, yes, unfair, no! You used the game mechanics as intended with a bonus outcome based on the inaction of others.


Exactly.

River75 wrote:
Inviting a 50 to the party then kicking them is circumventing the last patch for PL, manipulation of the claiming system, and giving an unfair advantage to the party that chooses to do this vs parties that play within the context of the design. This is a clear cut example of an exploit. Did you catch the words "manipulate"...there is your answer.


Just like there was an advantage (though I wouldn't call it unfair since anyone can use it) that existed in XI when people discovered that you could use Ninja outside the 'context of design'.

Manipulate means 'to handle or control, typically in a skillful manner'. Any actions performed on any mob whether solo or in a group could be seen as manipulation. It isn't nearly as clear cut as you make it out to be. Basically it's up to SE to decide.

River75 wrote:
Now as State has said, having someone OUTSIDE the party throwing heals and buffs is not an exploit, because the character remains outside the party at all times. This is no different that I seeing you dead on the map and raising you, or healing you while you are fighting your leve monsters (which I do from time to time while running around).


Again I'll use XI as an example, mostly because I am more familiar with it but also because these mechanics are still in the game. If you healed me outside of party and pulled hate, I would still receive the usual amount of experience points because I am the only person in my party. However, if you damage a mob that I am fighting even though you are not in my group, I am subject to experience point penalty just as if you had been in the group.

SE adjusted their mechanic to allow for people outside a group to interact with a mob without affecting the people inside the group who claimed. This is working as intended.






Edited, Nov 9th 2011 3:47pm by FilthMcNasty
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Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#23 Nov 09 2011 at 3:19 PM Rating: Decent
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I forgot if I mentioned it but I sent this post and what I wrote over to the head community rep for North America.

I didn't put it in the official forums as I'm not brave enough for that but anyone else is welcome to submit it via general discussion/feedback as well. I have a feeling there will be a locked thread about it due to raging/flaming more so than here.

I've looked over all the responses and I thank you all for being respectful about it. :)

Much appreciated ^^
#24 Nov 09 2011 at 3:33 PM Rating: Decent
AndroidCat wrote:
I forgot if I mentioned it but I sent this post and what I wrote over to the head community rep for North America.

I didn't put it in the official forums as I'm not brave enough for that but anyone else is welcome to submit it via general discussion/feedback as well. I have a feeling there will be a locked thread about it due to raging/flaming more so than here.

I've looked over all the responses and I thank you all for being respectful about it. :)

Much appreciated ^^


You presented a rage-tastic topic in a calm and legitimate fashion. It deserved legitimate responses, and I'm glad that everyone has been mature enough to maintain their cools about it. Great thread, thanks for bringing it to the table.
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#25 Nov 14 2011 at 9:08 PM Rating: Decent
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People try to complicate the argument. It's really not all the difficult to pin down.

In the MMORPG context, an exploit is any use of game mechanics to create an unintended benefit. Or if you wanted to get really funky with it, you could call an exploit any use of game mechanics in an unintended manner in order to bypass an intended process.

I'm glad someone briefly mentioned the FFXI Ninja debate (blink tanks..exploit or working as intended?) because it illustrates the pedantic manner in which some people will often try to justify other exploits. While SE openly acknowledged that they never intended for blink tanking to be a hallmark of the Ninja job, it didn't really allow people to bypass an intended process. It changed the healing dynamics and requirements for a party with a blink tank and in certain situations, groups with a blink tank would have less downtime than groups with, for example, a PLD/WAR tank. In its day-to-day applications, blink tanking did no harm and actually helped the game because it brought another viable tank job into the mix, and you can never have too many of those.

Now, you could point to the hijinks of a certain notorious taru RDM/NIN and say that was an exploit because he was bypassing the need for a full party in order to kill certain mobs, but that's where you cross into the subjective territory and in that regard, all decisions regarding appropriate/inappropriate use of game mechanics in that subjective category fall to the developers to make. In the case of a well geared player investing a substantial amount of time in a very low margin for error encounter, that lil fella had to work for whatever he got off that mob.

But then you spin it around and look at the real abuses of game mechanics. Is swapping high level people in and out of your party so that you can bypass the xp gain mechanics as they pertain to player level vs. mob level an exploit? Sure is. There's a process...you kill mobs and in doing so, you earn xp. In order to preserve the integrity of that process, restrictions/penalties are placed on how much xp you can earn from those mobs based on the level of the players in your group. If you are bypassing those restrictions by swapping people in and out so you can gain the benefits of having them help you (ie. faster/easier kills) while bypassing the intended penalties for doing so (reduced xp), it's an exploit.

AH! Don't even. Before you start to argue...

The question becomes just how serious SE deems the exploit to be based on how much it allows you to gain, the impact it has on the gaming experience of everyone who plays, and just generally whether or not it represents a significant disruption in terms of how the game is played. It may be that it never becomes a common practice and forever remains below the radar, but I can all but guarantee you that if it became widespread, you would see nerfs or adjustments to break the possibility of using the exploit.

There was an issue shortly after launch involving conjurers and heal spam that allowed them to gain all kinds of crazy skill points or something. People argued up and down that it wasn't an exploit because they were doing what the game allowed them to do. They still got rolled back or banned. At some point, the debate has to stop and people just have to accept reality. In short, do whatever you want, but if that little voice in the back of your head is saying, "This probably isn't something we should be doing" and you choose not to listen to it, any consequences you experience down the line are not something you can complain about. You chose to go ahead with something you knew wasn't in keeping with the spirit of the game. You took a gamble when you decided to see if you could get away with it and the gamble didn't pay off.
#26 Nov 14 2011 at 10:48 PM Rating: Decent
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Aurelius wrote:
Now, you could point to the hijinks of a certain notorious taru RDM/NIN and say that was an exploit because he was bypassing the need for a full party in order to kill certain mobs, but that's where you cross into the subjective territory and in that regard, all decisions regarding appropriate/inappropriate use of game mechanics in that subjective category fall to the developers to make.

Already been said. Most already agreed that it comes down to the devs and what they will allow or disallow.

Aurelius wrote:
Is swapping high level people in and out of your party so that you can bypass the xp gain mechanics as they pertain to player level vs. mob level an exploit? Sure is.

Based on what you just said and most of us agreed on, no... no it isn't. Yoshi himself stated that there should be little to no penalty.

Aurelius wrote:
If you are bypassing those restrictions by swapping people in and out...

Swapping has nothing to do with the exp and it isn't even necessary. You're not piggybacking exp from someone else who has to join or leave. If the OP had that last person added in their group instead of the R50 it would work just the same.

Aurelius wrote:
The question becomes just how serious SE deems the exploit to be based on how much it allows you to gain, the impact it has on the gaming experience of everyone who plays, and just generally whether or not it represents a significant disruption in terms of how the game is played.

There isn't a threshold for how much you gain that determines if something is an exploit or not. There really isn't any impact on other players either. No more than if you had been leveling normally and they showed up to find that the camp was already taken.

Aurelius wrote:
There was an issue shortly after launch involving conjurers and heal spam that allowed them to gain all kinds of crazy skill points or something.

This was actually an issue that was present in testing. An issue I personally reported, but that was back before SE started giving a sh*t what their players said.

Anyway, players were awarded SP based on their actions back then. Spells such as AoE healing or enhancing spells which affected multiple targets rewarded more points. Call it an exploit if you want to, but to me it's quite obviously poor design. Shouldn't be compared to current PL techniques.

Bottom line...

No GM will ban you for the OPs actions. Call a GM and ask them yourself.

Edited, Nov 14th 2011 11:49pm by FilthMcNasty
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Rinsui wrote:
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HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#27 Nov 14 2011 at 11:02 PM Rating: Decent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:

Swapping has nothing to do with the exp and it isn't even necessary. You're not piggybacking exp from someone else who has to join or leave. If the OP had that last person added in their group instead of the R50 it would work just the same.


Then why bother with all the hassle?

Aurelius wrote:
There isn't a threshold for how much you gain that determines if something is an exploit or not. There really isn't any impact on other players either. No more than if you had been leveling normally and they showed up to find that the camp was already taken.


When it comes to subjective interpretation, there is a threshold. How it's measured is up to the devs to decide. There is an impact on the players if people are leveraging an exploit to bypass parts of normal character progression. The people who abuse the exploit progress faster for their time invested, and that tends to upset people.

Aurelius wrote:
This was actually an issue that was present in testing. An issue I personally reported, but that was back before SE started giving a sh*t what their players said.

Anyway, players were awarded SP based on their actions back then. Spells such as AoE healing or enhancing spells which affected multiple targets rewarded more points. Call it an exploit if you want to, but to me it's quite obviously poor design. Shouldn't be compared to current PL techniques.


That's my point. People argued day in and day out that it wasn't an exploit when SE announced that people had the choice between reporting themselves for a rollback or having their account suspended. Guess what? The arguments and rationalizations meant nothing. They reported themselves and got rolled back or they got banned. Ergo, what YOU think doesn't matter, because you're not the one pulling the trigger on the disciplinary action.

Quote:
No GM will ban you for the OPs actions. Call a GM and ask them yourself.


1) Not going to install and patch a bad game to make a GM ticket and ask about something I could care less about.
2) Not every exploit is going to get you banned.
3) Rationalize all you want. If there's no benefit to swapping high levels in and out of your party, there's no exploit. If there is a benefit, it's an exploit. Whether or not SE deems it actionable, something that needs to be corrected via a patch, or something they don't care about is up to them to decide. THEM. Not you. Not all the people trying to rationalize why it should be okay just like how they tried to rationalize how the Conjurer exploit was fine. Rationalize rationalize rationalize. It's not your call to make and if you're willing to take the risk, take the risk. Just don't cry if it comes back on you.

#28 Nov 14 2011 at 11:43 PM Rating: Decent
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Aurelius wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:

Swapping has nothing to do with the exp and it isn't even necessary. You're not piggybacking exp from someone else who has to join or leave. If the OP had that last person added in their group instead of the R50 it would work just the same.

Then why bother with all the hassle?

I have no idea. Maybe they don't know it works without swapping, but it does.

Aurelius wrote:
When it comes to subjective interpretation, there is a threshold. How it's measured is up to the devs to decide.

Its not like SE would ignore you if you broke the rules for 1000 exp, suspend you for anything between 5000-9999 exp and ban you for 10k and above. The measurement is black and white. Wrong or right.

Aurelius wrote:
People argued day in and day out that it wasn't an exploit when SE announced that people had the choice between reporting themselves for a rollback or having their account suspended. Guess what?

In essence, we'd reported ourselves months prior to their 'discovery' of this problem which it turns out had been discovered when it was supposed to be, in testing. I really wish I still had access to the tester forums because if I could show you the volume of posts on that topic you'd shake your head in disgust at how much feedback was ignored. Dictionary definition of irony that SE wanted people to report themselves. What a joke.

Aurelius wrote:
1) Not going to install and patch a bad game to make a GM ticket and ask about something I could care less about.
2) Not every exploit is going to get you banned.
3) Rationalize all you want. If there's no benefit to swapping high levels in and out of your party, there's no exploit. If there is a benefit, it's an exploit. Whether or not SE deems it actionable, something that needs to be corrected via a patch, or something they don't care about is up to them to decide. THEM. Not you. Not all the people trying to rationalize why it should be okay just like how they tried to rationalize how the Conjurer exploit was fine. Rationalize rationalize rationalize. It's not your call to make and if you're willing to take the risk, take the risk. Just don't cry if it comes back on you.


1) People who are already playing have tried it for you.

3) No warnings, no rollbacks, no suspensions and no bans. SE has not taken any action at all.

2) Is rationalize the word of the day?

There are clearly stated rules so no one has to rationalize. The aforementioned method of PL does not violate those rules and therefore is not considered an exploit.

{End key}

Edited, Nov 15th 2011 12:44am by FilthMcNasty
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#29 Nov 15 2011 at 7:38 AM Rating: Decent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:

Aurelius wrote:
When it comes to subjective interpretation, there is a threshold. How it's measured is up to the devs to decide.

Its not like SE would ignore you if you broke the rules for 1000 exp, suspend you for anything between 5000-9999 exp and ban you for 10k and above. The measurement is black and white. Wrong or right.


You're being pedantic. I'm not talking about an explicit threshold. I'm talking about the difference between something that happens in isolated cases from time to time that don't warrant concern by developers and something that starts happening on a widespread basis that starts to disrupt the playerbase as a whole.

Quote:

In essence, we'd reported ourselves months prior to their 'discovery' of this problem which it turns out had been discovered when it was supposed to be, in testing. I really wish I still had access to the tester forums because if I could show you the volume of posts on that topic you'd shake your head in disgust at how much feedback was ignored. Dictionary definition of irony that SE wanted people to report themselves. What a joke.


You mean all the feedback aimed at developers sitting on a badly broken product trying to rush it out the door for a grossly premature release? That feedback? And you wonder why not every detail was addressed?

Please. That's the epitome of rationalization. "You had 1000 things to do but we told you about this and you didn't get around to fixing it, therefore it's okay." The devs told us countless times since Tanaka's departure that the reason they didn't react to much feedback during beta is because their time was consumed trying to fix bugs prior to release. You're trying to take the actions of people who had to have known in the back of their mind that they were milking an exploit and throw it back on the devs. That's not adult behavior. That's childish behavior. And the same goes for every other kind of exploit people attempt to rationalize with the statement, "We only did it because the game allowed us to therefore it's the devs' fault."

Quote:
1) People who are already playing have tried it for you.

3) No warnings, no rollbacks, no suspensions and no bans. SE has not taken any action at all.

2) Is rationalize the word of the day?

There are clearly stated rules so no one has to rationalize. The aforementioned method of PL does not violate those rules and therefore is not considered an exploit.


I don't think there are clearly stated rules. I think there was a statement by Yoshi-P saying he was okay with higher levels helping lower level players. If there's no benefit to swapping them in and out of your party then clearly it's not an exploit. If there is a benefit to doing so by way of bypassing xp penalties and such, then it is an exploit because you're bypassing a penalty mechanic by manipulating group rules. That's all there is to it.
#30 Nov 15 2011 at 9:21 AM Rating: Good
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FilthMcNasty wrote:

But it clearly says:
Quote:
This list has been provided to our players as a general guideline for the various prohibited activities and is not intended to be an all-inclusive outline of every prohibited activity within FINAL FANTASY XIV. When in doubt, we urge that our players err on the side of caution before engaging.

and I don't see where any of the conjurers broke any of the rules listed and they were rolled back.

I don't think anyone has a whole lot to worry about right now. They are preparing to start charging so I don't see them wanting to tick anyone off. Guess we can wait until 2.0 rolls around and see if they are still as tolerant.
#31 Nov 15 2011 at 9:38 AM Rating: Decent
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Aurelius wrote:
I'm talking about the difference between something that happens in isolated cases from time to time that don't warrant concern by developers and something that starts happening on a widespread basis that starts to disrupt the playerbase as a whole.


How does this method of PL 'disrupt the playerbase as a whole'? Please explain.

Aurelius wrote:
You're trying to take the actions of people who had to have known in the back of their mind that they were milking an exploit and throw it back on the devs. That's not adult behavior. That's childish behavior. And the same goes for every other kind of exploit people attempt to rationalize with the statement, "We only did it because the game allowed us to therefore it's the devs' fault."


I just pointed out how undeniably ironic it is that SE expects people to report themselves when they couldn't be bothered to check a forum specifically for that purpose which would have prevented the error. I didn't take part and I'm not defending the players who did, but you certainly can't defend the developer who didn't see it coming like everyone else did.

FYI people spoke up about it before it even hit the test servers.

Aurelius wrote:
I don't think there are clearly stated rules.


No? How bout a list of prohibited activities? About as clear as it gets.

Aurelius wrote:
I think there was a statement by Yoshi-P saying he was okay with higher levels helping lower level players.


YoshiP wrote:
It depends on what you consider power leveling. For example, if my friend and I were playing completely different games. I've already reached the level 50 cap, and then I invite my friend. Of course I want to do end game content like Ifrit with him, but I invited him, and he wants to play too, and we are really good friends so I want to help him out.

I can help him out with my level 50 character when he's being attacked by a monster. Of course it's going to lower the XP a bit, but I'd like to make it a bit loose and not too strict. I just want to make sure friends are able to help each other if they want to challenge content together by filling the gap.


Translation: "I don't give a **** as long as people start playing and enjoying this steaming pile of **** I am now the proud owner of."

Aurelius wrote:
If there's no benefit to swapping them in and out of your party then clearly it's not an exploit.


Yeah, I said that a few posts back. You don't seem to understand how it works at all so I'm not certain why you feel you're qualified to voice an opinion on it, much less hold up and argument. You seem like a smart enough guy to admit they were wrong though so I won't hold it against you.
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#32 Nov 15 2011 at 10:27 AM Rating: Excellent
FilthMcNasty wrote:

How does this method of PL 'disrupt the playerbase as a whole'? Please explain.


I answered this question clearly. There are far less players to form a legit party with then ever before, as well as the fact that soon very few players will have anything left to level at all.

Creating a regular EXP party is not a main focus of FFXIV? Not at all what I personally wanted from the game.
#33 Nov 15 2011 at 11:59 AM Rating: Decent
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maybe I missed it, but what is the reason behind inviting the r50 into party and kicking him out ? Just for agro management or does it increase xp bonus ??

I am pretty sure that if you aggro a mob and an r50 kill it you will get the xp, and you can't prevent the r50 from killing it.
#34 Nov 15 2011 at 8:28 PM Rating: Decent
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SmashingtonWho wrote:
I answered this question clearly. There are far less players to form a legit party with then ever before, as well as the fact that soon very few players will have anything left to level at all.


The only thing I can see being affected by a high contrast between low level and high level player population is the PS3 launch, but was going to be an issue even without PL. Those things tend to happen when your releases are spread by 30 months.

People will still form parties and grind exp even without PL. Not bragging, but I leveled nearly all of the jobs in XI to cap when it was 75 and I didn't get there sitting around in town waiting for a group with a PL to form. Even now, there are people going into abyssea afk for 12 hours capping from level 30 now. This has absolutely no effect on anyone else other than they aren't contributing to that specific group. I'm not sure how you would even notice that there is a PL group going on somewhere unless you happened to walk by.

lolmonkey wrote:
maybe I missed it, but what is the reason behind inviting the r50 into party and kicking him out?


There is no real reason. A group can be powerleveled without having to add or remove players from the group.






____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#35 Nov 21 2011 at 10:37 AM Rating: Excellent
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Sorry for kicking a semi dead horse here, however i needed a week or so get the info i needed.
@OP "definition of exploiting" in terms of XIV and PL.
Exploiting: Having 6/8 party members afk, while leader oust/invites the PL.
Not Exploiting: Having 8/8 playing there class as PL assists on kills.

In my week of research (leveling and helping people level), i have note a trend that is fairly disturbing. People join a party and automatically expect a PL so they can run to camp and afk. I have noticed this in all level party's. Every time i PL or make a party i make it roaming so a person who is afk or not paying attention quickly stands out. On multiple instances i have had people rage leave party because they said they could not be bothered to play to get exp points. Smiley: dubious

As for my description on exploiting and not, it's simple if you have a 8/8 party and the PL assists on kills from out side of party then it's legit so have at it. However if you have 6/8 people afk, not at there station or not even in the same room as the PC, while leader oust and invites a PL that is exploiting. It's quite sad to see so many people simply ignore the sign that 2-3 people are just leaching with out any contribution but are still let to soak up exp.
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#36 Nov 21 2011 at 1:48 PM Rating: Default
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There will be a official post coming soon about this. Details are being worked out. (un-named source)
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