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#1 Nov 09 2011 at 9:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/30419-YoshiP-DoL-DoH-translated-post?p=439683#post439683

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Quote Originally Posted by Naoki_Yoshida View Post
The Future of Gathering Classes
Good evening (Or is it good morning?)! Producer/Director Yoshida here.
I’m pretty nervous writing this text seeing how many fervent posts there have been on the subject.

This is going to be a long one again. I’m thinking it’s the longest to date.
With that said, I’d appreciate it if you read over it thoroughly when you have the time.

"Adventure" and "Class" Viewpoint Differences within the Armoury System
Before I get to talking about Disciples of the Land and Hand, I’d like to touch a bit on the Armoury system.

The characters in FFXIV are "adventurers."
Of these adventurers, there are battle classes, gathering classes, and crafting classes. The current Armoury System is parallel in a sense that for any class, you are able to level it up on its own or level it up alongside another class. The Armoury System is such that you can be and do anything you like with a single character.

In the world of FFXIV, if we were to summarize the play elements on a large scale, you can break it down into three main categories: "fighting", "gathering", and "crafting". I think it goes without saying which class fits into which category.

Since there are certain classes that fit directly into these three categories, looking at it from a "class" standpoint, I really feel that class identity would bring out the interesting aspects for each class.

However, looking at it from an "adventurer" standpoint, there is no sense of class identity, because you can play as any class and enjoy any aspect of content as long as you put in the time.

If you take this all in as an adventurer, it’s possible to experience and play any type of content; however, if you look at it from a class perspective, you will only be able to play certain content.

There are some players that are citing Ultima Online, but of the tens of existing "skills" you have to make a choice and raise your character. Since there are decided limitations on the skills you can raise, looking at it from the character’s perspective, specific class identities will arise (though it’s possible to re-spec). In the case you would like to experience everything, you will need to level multiple characters.

However, in the case of FFXIV where you can level classes side by side, there are no limitations on leveling your classes, so it's possible to complete all content with a single character. Naturally, it will take some time, but MMORPGs are created to allow for long periods of play, so as I said in the second Producer Letter LIVE, I’d like you all to go at your own pace and enjoy the game.

As a result, in order for as many players as possible to enjoy the FFXIV Armoury System, I’d like to ultimately use the Armoury System and matching system to realize the below two core points:

It’s possible to experience everything by playing over a long period of time, even if the player can only play for a short amount of time each day
Adding specific elements that hardcore gamers will enjoy


Main Quest Line and Content
I’d like to give a specific example based on these two standpoints, "adventurer" and "class", for the Armoury System.

For the main quest that was made before I took over FFXIV, in order to preserve the idea that you can complete the quests as any class, you would have to go around to a vast number of areas for the story aspect only, without battles ensuing. This is the result of the class standpoint at that time.

However, my thoughts of when I played were not particularly good. Being able to clear content with any class destroys class identity. This is the complete opposite idea to class identity which I mentioned earlier, and it does not bring out unique characteristics.

In order to create this uniqueness, the thought of "why not just make one large story with multiple points of view for every class" might come to mind, but the problem with this is of course not only the costs associated with it, but also the large amount of restrictions it places on the content.

The persona of a FFXIV character is that of an adventurer. Classes (and the jobs to be implemented in the future) are the roles that you take on at any given time as an adventurer.

For example, if you clear a mission of the scenario as a battle-type class, as an adventurer, you’ve already experienced this story. Even if you were to change your class to a Disciple of the Hand and try to experience the same story from a different angle, as an adventurer, this is just merely something that you have already accomplished previously.

Even if there are quests with different angles, such as scenario A1, scenario A2, scenario A3, they will be no different from scenario A1. It’s possible to flesh out some ideas, fix the axis of time and create "A1", "A2", and "A3" as parallel episodes. However, in this case, after clearing episode A, once you play episode B, you're already heading towards the future of the scenario and if you then play episode A2 or A3, narrative paradoxes will develop.

So, you're thinking now, "Well, how about if you create a episode A2 version 2 in case you play episode A2 after clearing episode B…" This is just not possible. For a console game, there is a finite end point so something like this is possible. You can even play again from the beginning. But for an MMO, as long as it is being updated, the "what ifs" can continue on infinitely.

The way to avoid this is to have a flag so if you don't clear A1, A2, or A3 then you will not be able to reach episode B.

However, if you set it up so A1 is the Disciple of War/Magic one, A2 is the Disciple of the Land one, and A3 is the Disciple of the Hand one, it results in you not being able to move forward unless you play as every class. Creating these types of flags ultimately results in a loss of freedom.

Well, how about if you make it so if you clear either A1, or A2, or A3 then it counts as a complete clear? Looking at this from a class standpoint this is okay. However, when looking at this from the adventurer standpoint, each class is parallel to one another. Due to this, the development team cannot guarantee that players can see every story as the class they desire to.

For MMORPGs, since data is saved on the server, it's not like you can simply hit the reset button and roll back your progress.

It would be possible to set up a prompt when beginning a scenario asking "The scenario will now begin. Since you are playing as a Disciple of the Land, you will be unable to experience this scenario as other classes. Proceed? Yes/No."

We could make three parallel scenarios that could not all be observed with one character. Considering this, a ton of development resources would be spent and the scenario itself would not progress very far.

Personally, I do not want to create this type of scenario and I don’t think any of you are looking for a FINAL FANTASY with a non-immersive scenario. This relates to what I was talking about in the recent Producer Letter LIVE when I said "If you want to follow the main storyline, you'll need to level up a battle class after 2.0."

For a dynamic storyline menacing battles are necessary. With this said, I’d like you progress through the storyline as an adventurer playing the role of a battle class.

However, it's possible for us to create stand alone quests for Disciples of the Land and Hand classes that do not affect the axis of time for these battles. For example, quests that show the origin of weapons adventurers come in contact with or reforging swords that were broken during other stories. I'd really like to show how the rest of the world is moving forward via these kind of quests.

Though, it's a fact that these side developments have been placed in lower priority because of where we were previously in a state where there were no quests available.

In between now and 2.0, I won’t say there will not be any or that or they will not be implemented, but they will be very few in number. If we do not lay the proper foundation, the branches will not develop. However, we are preparing a bunch of content for Disciples of the Land and Hand with the achievement system planned for patch 1.20 (with Land/Hand-specific rewards too).

Also, the same goes for content that is intertwined with battles.

"While in the dungeon, if you do not have a Disciple of Land in your party, certain items will not drop. Inside the dungeon there will be doors that can only be opened by keys that can only be made by Disciples of the Hand."

While it is possible to plan and implement something like this, the below points ultimately display a number of problems.

Battle classes would need to save a spot for a class with no battle proficiency (Stressful)
Disciples of the Land and Hand will be bored during battles (Stressful)
Battle balance would be off if we made Disciples of the Land and Hand count as party members (Stressful)

If we gave Disciples of the Land and Hand support abilities, then class identity would be destroyed. (I understand that there are comments like this though lol "It's fine! Wouldn't it be cool? Just try it for this dungeon!" So, I'm thinking maybe we can try it out just once if we have the time.)

With all this said, I really think it is better to create specialized content for each class.

In addition, I'm considering proceeding with the creation of Ishgard Defense (tentative name) with the goal of content that exists parallel on the class level.

The future of Disciples of the Land and fundamental class revamps
For Disciples of War/Magic, I want to provide the joy of fighting and defeating powerful enemies. For Disciples of the Hand, I want to provide a feeling of satisfaction from other players utilizing your created items. For Disciples of the Land, I want to provide a sense of fulfillment for gathering the materials that support the world.

I want to include content in which those that gather are praised by other players and NPCs for their efforts to travel the world and collect various items.

The gathering mini-game will be adjusted as follows up to the release of 2.0 (at the latest):

Gathering points will be searched for and discovered using a Disciple of the Land-specific ability
The gathering points discovered will have different levels, and they can be accessed based on class level
If the player has a sufficient Disciple of the Land level, it will be possible to gather at the point
Points with rare materials will move around within the area
Disciple of the Land-specific abilities will be heavily reviewed
A point system similar to TP and MP will be implemented (same for Disciples of the Hand)
A reward system similar to exp bonuses will be implemented for successful gathering attempts in succession (also for Disciples of the Hand)
Fundamental animation revamps
A system for easier gathering will be created (also for Disciples of the Hand)


We have also prepared a more detailed explanation of specs to implement the above.

Some aspects within this list cannot be implemented until the servers are revamped. However, we will be doing our best to implement animation revamps, specific ability adjustments, gathered material additions and others before the release of 2.0.

We have yet to determine a specific timetable, but we plan on working towards implementing the above changes once we have finished adjusting food item effects, food recipes, and other recipes. This is because if we move on before we adjust the recipes, the economy will remain unbalanced.
(FYI we have a separate team for Disciples of the Land and Hand)

The triangular relationship between Disciples of War/Magic, Hand, and Land
Gathering is a primary industry. Disciples of the Land themselves cannot produce a finished product from the materials that they gather, so they must sell their materials in the market or ask a crafter to create a product out of their materials.

These finished products usually end up in the hands of a Disciple of the War/Magic character. In order to fight, these classes need gear. Medicine and food (food will be fixed appropriately) are also necessary. Of course, there are also items used for fashion, as well as items for Disciples of the Land and Hand, but the overwhelming majority of items are for the battle-related classes.

These products cannot be sold without demand. Demand from the battle-related classes is spurred on by the introduction of stronger enemies. Players from the battle classes convert their old gear items into materia and equip newer, higher quality gear items to defeat stronger enemies.

Certainly, a system for buyers to easily find products is also necessary. However, this kind of system will have no use without demand.

In conclusion, by creating more demand, more products are created and more materials become necessary. This seems simple, but this is the reasoning behind our priorities for future developments:

Alter the battle system
Implement battle content
Revamp recipes (allow more product creation)
Create a system that promotes item consumption (conversion to materia)
Improve connection between buyers and sellers (search feature)
Add new materials and recipes

If we don’t create a necessity for materials, the act of gathering, which is a primary industry, will not have a role in the economy.

I have come to the conclusion that instead of focusing time and money towards developing content focused on gatherers, it would be best for gatherers, as well as FFXIV as a whole, to work towards completing the above six goals as quickly as possible.

The reason I have avoided posting directly about the economy is because it is an incredibly complicated topic. If there were simple solutions to economic problems, there wouldn’t be so many economic recessions across the world and there would be no need for economists.

Of course, I am thinking about this issue on a more detailed level, but I believe that there would be no solution to this discussion, so I have posted my conclusions. Until we reach 2.0, I would like to work towards achieving the above goals efficiently while taking in your feedback. After we solidify the foundation we can continue to build from there.

As such, I'm sorry that it has taken me some time to report this, but we do have plans and specs for the future of Disciples of the Land and Hand.

2.0 and beyond
I spoke a little bit about housing in the 2nd edition of the LIVE producer letter. I personally came up with the basic design for housing. (We have separate staff working on the details, and I feel bad for them that I was so ambitious with my plans)

I decided to implement a garden by any means necessary so that we can add content for Disciples of the Land and Hand.

It is also possible for players to decorate the exterior of buildings using custom architectural items created by Disciples of the Hand using construction material gathered by Disciples of the Land. There are roofs and other architectural items that can be purchased with gil, but custom items will only be attained through Disciples of the Hand and Land.

We also plan on implementing gardens so that players can plant gysahl greens and raise chocobo chicks.

Another thing we have planned for housing is an underground facility for building boats and airships. (This will be implemented sometime after the release of 2.0) We will release an image for housing as soon as possible, so please look forward to this patiently.

Finally
I have seen many posts asking, "What happened to being able to play only as a Disciple of the Land or Hand?"

This was a statement from the previous team, and I am very sorry if any of you were under the impression that you can experience all aspects of FFXIV by playing only as a specific class. I would like to officially retract this statement. I'm very sorry for the confusion surrounding this.

Each class has its own unique abilities. Disciples of the Land have the ability to gather materials, Disciples of the Hand have the ability to create items and Disciples of War/Magic have the ability to challenge enemies. It is possible for FFXIV adventurers to experience all of these things or to ultimately play only as one class.

I would like adventurers to adventure in the world of FFXIV freely and for everybody to choose their main class however they like. We will continue to work hard toward developing and operating the game to maintain this kind of freedom of choice.
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http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/story.html?story=18309
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Like Final Fantasy XI, the game specs will be extremely high for the time, but in about 5 years, an average machine can run it on max settings with little to no issues. Tanaka also expressed interest in making a benchmark program available.

FilthMcNasty wrote:
I endorse this thread.
#2 Nov 09 2011 at 10:00 PM Rating: Good
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YoshiP wrote:
I decided to implement a garden by any means necessary so that we can add content for Disciples of the Land and Hand.

It is also possible for players to decorate the exterior of buildings using custom architectural items created by Disciples of the Hand using construction material gathered by Disciples of the Land. There are roofs and other architectural items that can be purchased with gil, but custom items will only be attained through Disciples of the Hand and Land.

We also plan on implementing gardens so that players can plant gysahl greens and raise chocobo chicks.

Another thing we have planned for housing is an underground facility for building boats and airships. (This will be implemented sometime after the release of 2.0) We will release an image for housing as soon as possible, so please look forward to this patiently.


This section, and particularly the bolded bit interested me the most. The rest was mostly things being reiterated or things we already mostly expected.

I'm curious to see how gardens turn out, here's to hoping we get a shepherd class eventually and can go all Harvest Moon on our house. But what with an underground facility, I wonder if DoH will be getting basic workshops for player housing as well. And if this facility will be an expensive upgrade for personal use, or something to do more with free company halls.

I'm glad they finally backed off the idea of "all classes can complete all content" (obviously this wouldn't be possible) and only hope that means we'll get focused DoH/DoL content in the future.

Last impression though, I can see why including DoH and DoL in a standard raid or dungeon situation would be wonky to say the least, but I hope they didn't give up on the idea of making any content whatsoever that includes direct cooperation between any of the disciplines, other than selling of goods.
#3 Nov 09 2011 at 10:33 PM Rating: Good
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I can see DoL having a thief ability when we rock stun a mob in a party other than that we are useless.
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#4 Nov 09 2011 at 10:34 PM Rating: Good
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A wise decision, Yoshida.
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#5 Nov 09 2011 at 10:39 PM Rating: Decent
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This totally reminded of the scenario when an ex-gf/bf calls at 3am wasted rambling on about what went wrong and why you should take her/him back.

All jokes aside, some good points.

Edited, Nov 10th 2011 1:40am by chomama
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#6 Nov 10 2011 at 2:57 AM Rating: Decent
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Though I expected an official announcement on this eventually, I am still a bit sad reading it.

Quote:
This was a statement from the previous team, and I am very sorry if any of you were under the impression that you can experience all aspects of FFXIV by playing only as a specific class. I would like to officially retract this statement. I'm very sorry for the confusion surrounding this.

This part actually ****** me off though.

What confusion? This was specifically what we were promised(Well not promised but I do hope you understand what I mean by that). It wasn't a mistranslation or anything, this WAS one of the features we were all told would exist, and before Yoshi, did exist. You had the freedom to complete the main storyline as any class you wanted to play, there really was a lot of freedom then.

Despite the failings of the original team, it just annoys me to see him retract their statement and apologize for them. Just seems really ****** to me. I know he's the director now, but it takes some balls to retract the statement of an entirely different group of people that you had no real involvement with, decisions that were made before you even worked for the company.
Wouldn't bother me at all if he just said "I am sorry, but under these new changes you will no longer be able to experience all content as any class you wanted. This is a new direction and we will not be using the model introduced by the original team."
But, not what he said.

Disciples of the Hand and Land should no longer exist. I'm sure that ****** off a lot of people, but what's the point in them as specific classes?
Content for them is a really low priority by the current team.
There's very little content for them right now.
By 2.0 it will most likely be impossible for them to do anything besides just craft and gather.
And, honestly, why do those actions require a specific class change? Something with incredibly low HP, yet weirdly high MP? They can't fight or even defend themselves properly. With everything having a ranged attack, even with wrist flick running away is rarely a real option(and increased damage from back attacks).

Just, what's the point in bothering with them at all?
Remove them as classes, turn them in to normal skills that require an item to activate but don't require a change from a real class. You never have to worry about content for these relics of the old team again this way, and can continue to look a lot more like XI. It's not like the (former) crafter's and gatherer's would lose their effort this way. It just wouldn't be something visible. This would also stop new players from thinking they can get anywhere in the game without a DoW/DoM.

That is a bit whiny, but I'm really a bit upset about seeing all of this turn in to a reality. There really will be nothing special or unique about XIV soon enough. It will be a much prettier version of a previous product, and play like every other MMO in existence. I don't even care that it is a smart business move(If it isn't broke don't fix it, people don't want change).
They've destroyed or will soon destroy every reason I had to start this game in the first place. That really sucks to me, though it may end up as something good for the rest of you.

Still glad that Yoshi is so open about things, but he is ******* me off more and more lately.
Everyone blamed Tanaka alone for the previous teams problems, so going to single out him.

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#7 Nov 10 2011 at 4:07 AM Rating: Good
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Regarding the above post, I have to disagree.

When I think of Final Fantasy, I don't think of making negotiations with Parley (or what have you) in order to advance through boss fights and raids and what not as a DoL or DoH, I think of epic boss fights with an emphasis on strategy and spells/attacks/battles to get things done.

It kind of trivializes the whole challenge to just play a minigame as a crafter/gatherer for the same results. There are DoW/DoM that will fight and figure out the hardcore strategies sure, but everyone will level DoL or DoH in order to make things "easy" and rush through the whole thing, and something about that is just not appealing to me.
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#8 Nov 10 2011 at 5:05 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
That is a bit whiny, but I'm really a bit upset about seeing all of this turn in to a reality. There really will be nothing special or unique about XIV soon enough. It will be a much prettier version of a previous product, and play like every other MMO in existence. I don't even care that it is a smart business move(If it isn't broke don't fix it, people don't want change).
They've destroyed or will soon destroy every reason I had to start this game in the first place. That really sucks to me, though it may end up as something good for the rest of you.

The **** are you crying about?

Crafter classhood has one practical use: determining whether you could accept the next plot mission.

Returning DoH/DoL to their subclass status as in other MMOs will change absolutely nothing else about them. Crafters and gatherers will still get content. Crafters and gatherers will still get gear. Crafters and gatherers will still be indispensable parts of the game world.

But a weaver has no place battling the forces of evil. The parley system, as I believe I mentioned in a thread much like this one, is a silly device implemented solely to keep Tanaka's promise of equal classhood--one that never should have been made in the first place.

Violent dispute resolutions are an FF staple, an RPG staple. The purpose of tradesmen is outfitting combatants for saving the world, not participating in world-saving directly.

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#9 Nov 10 2011 at 6:07 AM Rating: Good
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Uchitoru wrote:
Though I expected an official announcement on this eventually, I am still a bit sad reading it.

Quote:
This was a statement from the previous team, and I am very sorry if any of you were under the impression that you can experience all aspects of FFXIV by playing only as a specific class. I would like to officially retract this statement. I'm very sorry for the confusion surrounding this.

This part actually ****** me off though.

What confusion? This was specifically what we were promised(Well not promised but I do hope you understand what I mean by that). It wasn't a mistranslation or anything, this WAS one of the features we were all told would exist, and before Yoshi, did exist. You had the freedom to complete the main storyline as any class you wanted to play, there really was a lot of freedom then.

Despite the failings of the original team, it just annoys me to see him retract their statement and apologize for them. Just seems really sh*tty to me. I know he's the director now, but it takes some balls to retract the statement of an entirely different group of people that you had no real involvement with, decisions that were made before you even worked for the company.
Wouldn't bother me at all if he just said "I am sorry, but under these new changes you will no longer be able to experience all content as any class you wanted. This is a new direction and we will not be using the model introduced by the original team."
But, not what he said.

Disciples of the Hand and Land should no longer exist. I'm sure that ****** off a lot of people, but what's the point in them as specific classes?
Content for them is a really low priority by the current team.
There's very little content for them right now.
By 2.0 it will most likely be impossible for them to do anything besides just craft and gather.
And, honestly, why do those actions require a specific class change? Something with incredibly low HP, yet weirdly high MP? They can't fight or even defend themselves properly. With everything having a ranged attack, even with wrist flick running away is rarely a real option(and increased damage from back attacks).

Just, what's the point in bothering with them at all?
Remove them as classes, turn them in to normal skills that require an item to activate but don't require a change from a real class. You never have to worry about content for these relics of the old team again this way, and can continue to look a lot more like XI. It's not like the (former) crafter's and gatherer's would lose their effort this way. It just wouldn't be something visible. This would also stop new players from thinking they can get anywhere in the game without a DoW/DoM.

That is a bit whiny, but I'm really a bit upset about seeing all of this turn in to a reality. There really will be nothing special or unique about XIV soon enough. It will be a much prettier version of a previous product, and play like every other MMO in existence. I don't even care that it is a smart business move(If it isn't broke don't fix it, people don't want change).
They've destroyed or will soon destroy every reason I had to start this game in the first place. That really sucks to me, though it may end up as something good for the rest of you.

Still glad that Yoshi is so open about things, but he is ******* me off more and more lately.
Everyone blamed Tanaka alone for the previous teams problems, so going to single out him.



First of all, I know I'm just splitting hairs here, but isn't "I'd like to officially retract this statement" and "but under these new changes you will no longer be able to experience all content as any class you wanted" basically the same thing?

Why bother with gathering and crafting classes?

It's part of the armoury system. It wouldn't make a whole lot of sense for a DoW to equip a pick axe and hit the side of a mountain to defeat an enemy. It's all in the roles that each of the disciplines are given. If you completely take away gathering/crafting then how are people supposed to make their own armor? How are they supposed to fix it? How are they supposed to make money? I suppose you could accomplish all of this by making them rewards for completing quests. If this were the case though, regardless of how much gil they give as a reward, it would have to be an amazingly high amount just to cover what players "might" do with it. If gil is only received as a reward for completing quests, then there would be a finite amount of gil one person could obtain. This would lead to problems like players who didn't know this when first starting out as a new player spending their gil frivolously and then later finding out they spent their gil on crap they really didn't need and their character would then be broken and unable to get what they needed later in the game. As it is, people do have the freedom to play as any class they choose to. Personally, I would like to be able to be self sufficient and make my own armor, repair my own armor, and then sell what I gather/create to make my own money. I feel like if I didn't have this freedom to do this, I would be extremely limited in what I can do for myself. By asking "why bother with them at all," I feel that you are completely ignoring the entire reason crafting/gathering classes are there.

By 2.0 it will most likely be impossible for them to do anything besides just craft and gather.

What else can they do? Crafters craft. Gatherers gather items for crafters. Low hp and high mp? Hp and Mp amounts vary from class to class b/c of their stats. The higher a classes vitality, you'll notice that they have more hp. The higher a classes mind(? I think that's the one) the more mp they will have. Currently, mp is not useful for anything for crafters or gatherers, but the higher vit and mnd stats do mean something for crafters and gatherers. The main hand and sub hand tools have different stats that boost their effectiveness. The for crafters and gatherers, its not how much hp or mp you have, its all about the stat. The higher it is, the more successful you will be at your job.

Personally, I'm glad I can't experience all the content as a crafter/gatherer. Yes it limits your freedom, but its a small price to pay to make the content more exciting. If you level solely a crafting class and then do all the storyline quests and parley/convince the bad guys to stop being bad, I'm just curious to see how exciting that is for you. The bad guys are bad for a reason. How often do bad guys in real life decide to just stop b/c you beat them at a board game and then ask them to stop being bad?

I appologize if this comes off kind of mean. I certainly don't mean for it to, but the gripes you have about this just don't make any sense to me.
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#10 Nov 10 2011 at 6:25 AM Rating: Excellent
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Nothing excites me more for the future of FFXIV then to see yoshi-P's enthusiasm for his design. I'm not saying the man doesn't have a chance to fail he certainly does, but i'm always pleased to see his forum posts. They'res a kind of tone in they're where he's 1/2 explaining his vision to us and 1/2 justifying an idea that he spends every waking hour of his day thinking about.

Say what you want about yoshi-p but its very clear from these posts that he spends more time thinking about FFXIV then we do, its more then justified seeing as this game can make or break his career, but as a subscriber to 14 its reassuring to see first hand his thought process.

I specifically liked his comment about world economies and game economies, i've made that point to several of my friends when video game econ arguments arise glad to see that he's got a humble outlook on the depth of a community's effect on an MMO.

Shows a lot of good signs he's at the least a competent and hard working man, its almost inspiring in a way...
#11 Nov 10 2011 at 7:58 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm pleased he was "man enough" to say it. It needed to be said. Making crafters and gatherers classes was kind of asking for trouble. It was always going to come down to either excluding them from stuff or making stuff so over the top easy it would ***** the battle classes.

I can also understand some people being disappointed with the announcement. I know a couple people who were really into crafting or gathering and liked the idea of still being able to experience everything as those classes. It just wasn't that realistic but I can understand the hope.
#12 Nov 10 2011 at 9:04 AM Rating: Good
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Loved the post...may be one of his best and most honest to date. He really has nothing to lose anymore by laying things out. He knows he won't really gain or lose anyone with these posts...but he will definitely keep those interested in the game stay interested in the game.
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#13 Nov 10 2011 at 9:17 AM Rating: Excellent
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I like how this issue is finally addressed.

I was one of those who thought that multiple main story scenarios could've existed to accomodate all classes. Looking at Yosi-P's answer, I can see now how it could have been more of a hassle. That being said, with something like the Echo, "physically" participating in a past event could have been possible.

"Yoshi-P" wrote:
However, it's possible for us to create stand alone quests for Disciples of the Land and Hand classes that do not affect the axis of time for these battles. For example, quests that show the origin of weapons adventurers come in contact with or reforging swords that were broken during other stories. I'd really like to show how the rest of the world is moving forward via these kind of quests.


This really excites me, and does include some ideas i had for trying to include DoH/DoL classes more into the main storyline.

I also like the housing ideas, furniture, gardening, roofing... Some great things are coming down the pipeline!!
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#14 Nov 11 2011 at 4:16 AM Rating: Decent
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Some of that just wasn't read at all...

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It's part of the armoury system. It wouldn't make a whole lot of sense for a DoW to equip a pick axe and hit the side of a mountain to defeat an enemy. It's all in the roles that each of the disciplines are given. If you completely take away gathering/crafting then how are people supposed to make their own armor?

Not what I was saying at all. Crafting and gathering has to exist obviously, but there's no reason for it to be it's own class.
No reason to try and pull content for it out of their asses.

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Low hp and high mp? Hp and Mp amounts vary from class to class b/c of their stats. The higher a classes vitality, you'll notice that they have more hp.

That was mostly about pre-Physical level abolition days, not so much right now. From Beta until a few months ago, no matter how much MND you had, DoH and DoL had ridiculous amounts of MP, and absolutely no means of using it. HP, no matter the Vit, was also stupidly low. I know stats raise the HQ rate and crap of specific tools, but that's not what I was talking about.
Also, before Stealth, HP was pretty important for DoL. No fun getting one shotted by something. Having the HP to survive a few hits while running was incredibly useful for me at least. Some things you just couldn't escape obviously.

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If you level solely a crafting class and then do all the storyline quests and parley/convince the bad guys to stop being bad, I'm just curious to see how exciting that is for you. The bad guys are bad for a reason. How often do bad guys in real life decide to just stop b/c you beat them at a board game and then ask them to stop being bad?

Things aren't that black and white. The Amaal'ja aren't evil really, or the Ixalli or Sahagin etc. It's not really about good guys and bad guys.
Parley is retarded. I never said that was any sort of good system at all. I liked the option though. No one was forced to go as one class or the other. The people that wanted the easiest way out would take the easiest way, no matter what that is.

Quote:

First of all, I know I'm just splitting hairs here, but isn't "I'd like to officially retract this statement" and "but under these new changes you will no longer be able to experience all content as any class you wanted" basically the same thing?

Not the same thing. He's retracting a statement by someone else. Those were not his words, so it seems wrong to me for him to come out and do that. He's also stating the original plan for DoH/DoL(Man I am kind of tired of typing that) as something people were confused about, which is really ******. There was no confusion, this was the original plan. I always knew it was going to be changed eventually and that's not what I have a problem with. Current director or no, I don't feel like he has the right to claim there was a misunderstanding about Tanaka and the original teams vision, when there clearly wasn't any misunderstanding at all. Maybe it's all in the translation or something.
(to tired to type in names for each quote)
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When I think of Final Fantasy, I don't think of making negotiations with Parley (or what have you) in order to advance through boss fights and raids and what not as a DoL or DoH, I think of epic boss fights with an emphasis on strategy and spells/attacks/battles to get things done.

I agree with that actually. It's not very FF like, but at the start it was something that was a possibility. Doesn't matter how untraditional it was I guess, it just something that was going to exist in this specific FF.
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It kind of trivializes the whole challenge to just play a minigame as a crafter/gatherer for the same results. There are DoW/DoM that will fight and figure out the hardcore strategies sure, but everyone will level DoL or DoH in order to make things "easy" and rush through the whole thing, and something about that is just not appealing to me.

The people always looking for the easiest way out of something are going to go that route no matter what. If they want to do that I really have no problem with it. I'm not all that worried about how others progress through the game. If they want easy mode and to cheapen everything, let them, it's not like they'd really end up sticking around all that long anyways.
Just like XI. People that leeched their way to Rank 10, or through CoP, or now through Abyssea. There's always going to be some way for people to avoid the harder things.
Parley is really dumb though. I will never in a thousand years defend that boring broken system. There could have been another way, tailored to each type even. I don't see how it would have been all that hard then or in the future, but they're not going to bother either way.

Quote:
Crafters and gatherers will still get content. Crafters and gatherers will still get gear. Crafters and gatherers will still be indispensable parts of the game world.

There would be no need to add new "Content" for them if they were just subclasses. It's a low priority for them anyways, so they could probably just ditch it now without many being all that bothered about it. That whole "Bunch of crafters get together to build boats and ****" was a cool idea...

I'd be OK with it if they at least removed DoH and DoL as selectable classes at the start of the game. When I started retail, I kind of didn't want to fight much, just wanted to craft and swim in a pile of gil like Scrooge McDuck. It'd be crappy if any new player is sort of tricked in to believing that is even a possibility now or in the future.
Also, not really crying about anything. It's something that sucks, but by the time these major changes are introduced I most likely won't be around anyways(Who really knows where they will be in two years).
It's my reaction and opinions on his letter and the direction of the game. All but abandoning the classes, but still considering them a part of this armoury system that's probably not going to last as long as he expects.
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#15 Nov 11 2011 at 8:44 AM Rating: Good
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Uchitoru wrote:
Quote:

First of all, I know I'm just splitting hairs here, but isn't "I'd like to officially retract this statement" and "but under these new changes you will no longer be able to experience all content as any class you wanted" basically the same thing?

Not the same thing. He's retracting a statement by someone else. Those were not his words, so it seems wrong to me for him to come out and do that. He's also stating the original plan for DoH/DoL(Man I am kind of tired of typing that) as something people were confused about, which is really sh*tty. There was no confusion, this was the original plan. I always knew it was going to be changed eventually and that's not what I have a problem with. Current director or no, I don't feel like he has the right to claim there was a misunderstanding about Tanaka and the original teams vision, when there clearly wasn't any misunderstanding at all. Maybe it's all in the translation or something.

You're looking at it from the wrong angle. The confusion wasn't about Tanaka's original plan, but rather what Yoshida was going to do with that original plan when he picked up XIV and did massive changes to everything but specifically focused on DoW classes for a long time while DoH/DoL took backseat. Thus, he was clearing up the "confusion" on why those classes were being neglected.

As far as "retracting" the statement from Tanaka's team, it's true, but it's very nitpicky to blame his choice of words. I don't see a reason to be butthurt about the statement.

Edited, Nov 11th 2011 8:45am by CarthRDM
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