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Class Reforms (11/11/2011)Follow

#1 Nov 11 2011 at 4:38 AM Rating: Excellent
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http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/30501?p=441509#post441509

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[dev1206] Class Reforms

* The following changes and additions are planned for patch 1.20.
* All features are under development and subject to change and postponement.


We would like to take a moment to outline the class reforms scheduled for patch 1.20 as well as explain the impetus behind the changes.

In carrying out class reforms, we aim to:

Streamline the Armoury system.
Accentuate the uniqueness of each class.
Introduce a character development system and battle elements distinct to FINAL FANTASY XIV.

The Armoury system offers high levels of freedom, allowing players to switch classes simply by changing their equipped weapon. By the same token, however, the system has been deemed unnecessarily complicated when it comes to gear restrictions and setting actions, and is also bothersome from a UI standpoint.

Furthermore, no differentiation is currently being made between setting an action learned through the current class and one belonging to another. This has rendered it difficult for each class to retain its uniqueness.

To address these issues, patch 1.20 will see the adjustment and redistribution of actions for all classes. New actions will be added, and individual combos (name tentative) introduced. Further down the track, patch 1.21 will usher in the job system, which will serve as a new focal point for character development.
* The inner workings of actions will be prioritized in 1.20, and graphical resources will be reused where possible. Cosmetic changes are expected to commence from patch 1.21 and continue in stages ahead of Version 2.0.


Changes to the mechanics of actions scheduled for patch 1.20 are outlined below. Details such as the concept behind each class and a list of specific actions scheduled for adjustments will be released at a later date. The explanations are centered on battle classes; however, the same changes will apply to Disciples of both the Hand and the Land where the setting of actions is concerned.


* The following revisions have yet to be finalized and are subject to change.


1. Class-specific Actions

The following changes will be made to class-specific actions:

Actions learnable by each class will undergo comprehensive review and revision.

At present, only executable actions such as abilities, spells, and weaponskills can be learned by gaining in level. This will be revised to include traits.

Upper tiers of an action (such as Fire II and Fire III) will be abolished in favor of a system wherein potency and MP cost are scaled based on the player’s level.

Fifteen actions and eleven traits will be made available for each class up to level 50, with either one action or trait learned for every two levels gained. Job-exclusive actions will be made obtainable via quests and treated separately.
* For information on actions and their levels, please refer to 4. Setting Actions and Traits.

A comprehensive list of actions scheduled for change will be released in the near future.


2. Traits and Guild Tokens


As mentioned above, traits will be learned as players rise in level. As such, the system wherein traits are obtained in exchange for guild tokens will be abolished.

Methods are being considered to reimburse players for the guild tokens they have spent on acquiring traits. Discussion is ongoing whether to devise alternate uses for guild tokens or do away with them completely. In the case of the latter, we will provide players with a means to exchange their tokens for gil, company seals, and items. Details will be announced pending finalization.


3. Shield Skill

Not being bound to any class in particular, the shield skill has been handled as an irregularity when it came to the obtainment of experience points and actions. In reviewing the identity of each class, it was decided that shield actions should be made a part of the gladiator ******** In order to streamline the system and accentuate class uniqueness, the shield skill will be phased out and instead take the form of actions and traits learnable by gladiators.

Please be aware that the above changes will render all gains associated with the shield skill (levels and EXP) invalid.


4. Setting Actions and Traits

The following reforms will be made to the conditions for setting actions and traits:

Upon learning an action for your current class, that action will automatically be set to the action bar and cannot be voluntarily removed. It will be possible, however, to move the action to another slot.

Action costs will be abolished. Instead, a cap will be imposed upon the number of actions from other classes that can be set. The cap will be determined by the level of your current class.

Players will no longer be bound by level restrictions when setting actions from other classes.
For instance, a level 1 pugilist will be able to set a level 30 gladiator action. However, the effectiveness of that action will be scaled down accordingly.

All traits will be made class-exclusive.
Adjustments will be made so that certain actions will only unleash their full potential when paired with traits belonging to the same class.

In conjunction with the above changes, the Actions & Traits interface will undergo redesign in order to make action placement and repositioning more intuitive. Readying an action for use will become a two-step process: players set an action, after which they will have the opportunity to rearrange the action bar.


The levels at which actions and traits are learned, along with the cap for setting actions from other classes, are as follows:

[table]

5. The Influence of Levels on Actions

As mentioned under 1. Class-specific Actions, upper tier actions will be abolished in favor of scaling the potency of the base action according to level. The effectiveness and MP cost of the action will be dependent upon the level of your current class.


6. Individual Combos (name tentative)

As part of action reforms planned for patch 1.20, a system will be implemented wherein the majority of weaponskills and spells will receive a bonus if certain conditions are met. Conditions fall into the categories listed below, the third of which pertains to combos.

Position

Striking the enemy from the direction specified, e.g., the flank.

Status

Avoiding or incurring enmity from the enemy in question and so forth.

Sequence

Landing the specified weaponskill or spell on the enemy immediately beforehand.

Not only will a successful combo grant you the bonus indicated; TP cost will also be waived for the weaponskill used to execute it. For a combo to be valid, however, the weaponskill in question must be used with the class or job to which it belongs.

Examples of weaponskills and their bonus conditions:

WS1
Weaponskill 1 Deal physical damage to a single target. Damage increases by 20% when executed from the front.
WS2
Weaponskill 2 Deal physical damage to a single target, increasing enmity.
Combo: Weaponskill 1 Bonus: Enmity+50%
WS3
Weaponskill 3 Deal physical damage to a single target.
Combo: Weaponskill 1 Bonus: Damage+20%
WS4
Weaponskill 4 Deal physical damage to a single target. Inflicts gradual HP reduction when executed from behind.
Combo: Weaponskill 3 Bonus: HP reduction +25%

Individually executed, the above weaponskills will deal out only what is indicated in the first line of their descriptions. The bonuses granted by weaponskills 1 and 4 (Damage+20% and Gradually reduces HP, respectively) are dependent on positioning.

Weaponskills 2 through 4 each offer a combo bonus. For instance, performing 2 immediately after landing 1 will grant you Enmity+50%. Furthermore, the TP cost for performing 2 will be waived. In the case of the above weaponskills, the following two combinations can be identified:
1) 1 → 2
2) 1 → 3 → 4

Please note that all bonus conditions must be fulfilled for a weaponskill to be considered valid in a combo. For this reason, 3 → 4 alone do not form a combo, as 1 is a requirement for 3.

In addition to system messages, consideration is being given to graphically display combos





Edited, Nov 11th 2011 5:41am by Magnesium02
#2 Nov 11 2011 at 4:57 AM Rating: Decent
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Sounds good to me. Bring on the patch lol.
#3 Nov 11 2011 at 6:25 AM Rating: Excellent
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Upper tiers of an action (such as Fire II and Fire III) will be abolished in favor of a system wherein potency and MP cost are scaled based on the player’s level.


That's gonna suck for MP management....especially for healers.
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#4 Nov 11 2011 at 7:16 AM Rating: Default
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Aggro management, MP management...
What is Yoshi thinking?

Perhaps they are adding -ra and -aga suffix as higher potency spells ?

Edited, Nov 11th 2011 8:21am by lambon
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#5 Nov 11 2011 at 7:39 AM Rating: Good
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This is very exciting. This will make it different than FFXI was even more so which personally I actually would love.

I've always felt I'm playing version 2.0 of XI with a number of exceptions. It will be nice to see all the skills boiled down into one ability rather than Tiers.

I know this isn't necessarily the way FF has been in the past but it still flows along the same lines. There will be some resistance to it. I would ask that anyone playing who's tried another MMO see how this works in there as well.

In playing Aion and a few others I've always had "access" to the lower tier stuff, but never bothered to use it, even if it was higher mp. The benefit of using the higher tier always outweighed the actual cost of it.

That said we also don't know what yoshi has planned for the actual cost of the abilities and it could be less than they are now :)

Very exciting.
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#6 Nov 11 2011 at 7:45 AM Rating: Excellent
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Elionara wrote:

In playing Aion and a few others I've always had "access" to the lower tier stuff, but never bothered to use it, even if it was higher lower? mp. The benefit of using the higher tier always outweighed the actual cost of it.


This was never the case in FFXI - unless you were an extremely poor mage. So it will be interesting to see how this turns out.
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#7 Nov 11 2011 at 8:02 AM Rating: Decent
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rikkuotaku wrote:
Elionara wrote:

In playing Aion and a few others I've always had "access" to the lower tier stuff, but never bothered to use it, even if it was higher lower? mp. The benefit of using the higher tier always outweighed the actual cost of it.


This was never the case in FFXI - unless you were an extremely poor mage. So it will be interesting to see how this turns out.


Oh of course :) I'm saying most others it does. This is XIV however, not XI and I feel it should be different. Of course everyone is entitled to their own opinion. :D
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Like Final Fantasy XI, the game specs will be extremely high for the time, but in about 5 years, an average machine can run it on max settings with little to no issues. Tanaka also expressed interest in making a benchmark program available.

FilthMcNasty wrote:
I endorse this thread.
#8 Nov 11 2011 at 8:28 AM Rating: Decent
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This new system opens the door for proper class identity and skill differentiation. I don't think this will introduce new enmity and mp management issues. Instead, it will allow us to vary what we do. It looks like a lot of people are concerned about how this will affect healing, so allow me to demonstrate what this new system could introduce to alleviate these concerns:

Cure
MP Cost: Character Level / 2 + 20
Effect: Heals target for: Character Level * 10 + Mind * 2 + Healing Magic Potency
Cast Time: 2.5 Seconds

Dire Cure
MP Cost: Character Level / 2
Effect: Heals target for: Healing Magic Potency
Cast Time: Instant

With these 2 abilities, we could see a combo like this:

Dire Cure > Cure

The casting time, Enmity Generation, and MP Cost of Cure is reduced by 30%.

This is a quick (and dirty) example of what this system could bring. I'm just saying that the elimination of tiered spells does not mean they are eliminating options. It means they are eliminating redundancy.
#9 Nov 11 2011 at 8:39 AM Rating: Good
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4. Setting Actions and Traits

The following reforms will be made to the conditions for setting actions and traits:

Upon learning an action for your current class, that action will automatically be set to the action bar and cannot be voluntarily removed. It will be possible, however, to move the action to another slot.

Action costs will be abolished. Instead, a cap will be imposed upon the number of actions from other classes that can be set. The cap will be determined by the level of your current class.

Players will no longer be bound by level restrictions when setting actions from other classes.
For instance, a level 1 pugilist will be able to set a level 30 gladiator action. However, the effectiveness of that action will be scaled down accordingly.

All traits will be made class-exclusive.
Adjustments will be made so that certain actions will only unleash their full potential when paired with traits belonging to the same class.

In conjunction with the above changes, the Actions & Traits interface will undergo redesign in order to make action placement and repositioning more intuitive. Readying an action for use will become a two-step process: players set an action, after which they will have the opportunity to rearrange the action bar.


This seems to be one of the most intuitive decisions I have seen regarding DoW/DoM classes. I am reading this correctly, right? If I'm a LNC I will have all known LNC skills equipped, and then have an allowance to equip other class skills that I already know? Heck yes. Finally making each class actually feel unique.
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#10 Nov 11 2011 at 8:49 AM Rating: Good
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I'm not quite following this:

"Upon learning an action for your current class, that action will automatically be set to the action bar and cannot be voluntarily removed. It will be possible, however, to move the action to another slot."

This mean regardless of whether or not we want to use the Action...we will not be able to remove it from our bar? So, at level 50, all 15 of your Class Actions will be on your bar, in whatever order you want them. And Traits and other Actions from other classes will be the ones we can take on and off?
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#11 Nov 11 2011 at 9:01 AM Rating: Decent
Simool wrote:
I'm not quite following this:

"Upon learning an action for your current class, that action will automatically be set to the action bar and cannot be voluntarily removed. It will be possible, however, to move the action to another slot."

This mean regardless of whether or not we want to use the Action...we will not be able to remove it from our bar? So, at level 50, all 15 of your Class Actions will be on your bar, in whatever order you want them. And Traits and other Actions from other classes will be the ones we can take on and off?

Correct. They are basically saying that we will have full access to all "in-class" abilities/spells, which can be reorganized, but will all be equipped at all times - and you can still add up to 10 more spells/abilities from other classes - and you can equip your in-class traits freely.
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#12 Nov 11 2011 at 9:57 AM Rating: Excellent
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I realy hope the removal of tiers doesn't mean we get the WoW magic style that "FirebalL" at level 85 looks the exact same as "Fireball" at level 3.
Casting the same looking main nuke over and over again is very very boring even if it does 100x more damage...

Thats something that I loved in many recent FF games, to see the cooler and bigger animation as you progress trough the spells tiers.
Look at XI with a spell like Blizzard I and compare it to the later Blizzard IV, its easy to see visualy which is the stronger and higher level magic there.

If we get visual progress with our spells rising in power as we level I'm all for this new system, if thats not their goal then I would rather keep the tier system as is.

#13 Nov 11 2011 at 9:58 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:

This mean regardless of whether or not we want to use the Action...we will not be able to remove it from our bar? So, at level 50, all 15 of your Class Actions will be on your bar, in whatever order you want them. And Traits and other Actions from other classes will be the ones we can take on and off?


Traits from other classes will not be an option. For traits, you will be limited to your class. Also, you will be limited to 10 actions from other classes at level 50.

Quote:
Correct. They are basically saying that we will have full access to all "in-class" abilities/spells, which can be reorganized, but will all be equipped at all times - and you can still add up to 10 more spells/abilities from other classes - and you can equip your in-class traits freely.


I don't imagine that we will be equipping our in-class traits. It seems unnecessarily complex. It is much simpler if in-class traits are automatically on, and it seems that simplicity is one of the primary goals for this adjustment.
#14 Nov 11 2011 at 10:18 AM Rating: Decent
bunsisbuns wrote:
Quote:

This mean regardless of whether or not we want to use the Action...we will not be able to remove it from our bar? So, at level 50, all 15 of your Class Actions will be on your bar, in whatever order you want them. And Traits and other Actions from other classes will be the ones we can take on and off?


Traits from other classes will not be an option. For traits, you will be limited to your class. Also, you will be limited to 10 actions from other classes at level 50.

Quote:
Correct. They are basically saying that we will have full access to all "in-class" abilities/spells, which can be reorganized, but will all be equipped at all times - and you can still add up to 10 more spells/abilities from other classes - and you can equip your in-class traits freely.


I don't imagine that we will be equipping our in-class traits. It seems unnecessarily complex. It is much simpler if in-class traits are automatically on, and it seems that simplicity is one of the primary goals for this adjustment.


Regarding Traits, I'm not sure that we won't be able to equip those earned from other classes. I mean what reason would I have, as a THM to equip a -10Mnd for +10Dex trait? I would think that we could equip those from other classes that would boost stats that we want.

Edited, Nov 11th 2011 11:24am by Dyrwydi
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#15 Nov 11 2011 at 10:52 AM Rating: Good
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Although they specifically mentioned adjusting mp and potency for spells I wonder if this will also apply to multi-tierred WS such as Doomspike/Doomspike II. If that is the case I wonder at what level they will make those abilities usable (learned at the level you learned doomspike I or II or somewhere in between?). I'm really looking forward to seeing these changes.

#16 Nov 11 2011 at 11:19 AM Rating: Excellent
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Magnesium02 wrote:
Upper tiers of an action (such as Fire II and Fire III) will be abolished in favor of a system wherein potency and MP cost are scaled based on the player’s level.


I wonder if this means we'll be stuck casting the same spell from 1 > 50, or whether a certain level will dictate what our spells look like. Either way, I liked just using tiers better; honestly, this is just the simplest way to balance things, and it's not very compelling to me because of how formulaic it is; everything is just based around simple patterns (e.g., ability every two levels; fifteen total actions; &c.).
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#17 Nov 11 2011 at 11:57 AM Rating: Good
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Ugh, why are they changing the tier system, that has been a trade mark of Final Fantasy since the early years. Whether they were differentiated by Tier number, or a -ra,-ga etc. It worked, and I don't see the reason for a change.

So now, instead of a progressively more impressive animation for a elemental line, we'll get one spell that'll we cast from day one? Fun.

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#18 Nov 11 2011 at 12:04 PM Rating: Good
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From what I guessed, reading it, it seems as if to start, you're going to see the same animations, and that as they start to fill in and update the jobs the system will switch to progressive animations.
#19 Nov 11 2011 at 12:30 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Regarding Traits, I'm not sure that we won't be able to equip those earned from other classes. I mean what reason would I have, as a THM to equip a -10Mnd for +10Dex trait? I would think that we could equip those from other classes that would boost stats that we want.


Section 4 of the explanation of changes states:

Quote:
All traits will be made class-exclusive.
Adjustments will be made so that certain actions will only unleash their full potential when paired with traits belonging to the same class.


I imagine that we will be seeing the end of certain traits, such as the stat swapping ones. I hope that we will be seeing the end of Fleet of Foot in particular, as it will become very difficult for DoWs other than Lancer to dodge Ifrit's traps otherwise (I would like to see active-mode running speeds increased for all classes).
#20 Nov 11 2011 at 12:56 PM Rating: Good
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So counting the Gladiator class abilities, which include things like light slash.. provoke, Sentinel.. ect.. There are about 17 abilities. This does not include any Weapon skills. At lvl 50 it states 15 total abilities.. and they are automatically equipped. Unless they plan to condense things like Provoke and provoke 2.. there are too many abilities. What about Weaponskills? Are these apart of the 15 abilities as well? Or are weaponskill cross job abilities. If so do they count as apart of your 10?

Edited, Nov 11th 2011 1:57pm by jtully
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#21 Nov 11 2011 at 1:10 PM Rating: Decent
jtully wrote:
So counting the Gladiator class abilities, which include things like light slash.. provoke, Sentinel.. ect.. There are about 17 abilities. This does not include any Weapon skills. At lvl 50 it states 15 total abilities.. and they are automatically equipped. Unless they plan to condense things like Provoke and provoke 2.. there are too many abilities. What about Weaponskills? Are these apart of the 15 abilities as well? Or are weaponskill cross job abilities. If so do they count as apart of your 10?

Edited, Nov 11th 2011 1:57pm by jtully


An excellent question. I'm looking at my THM's list and there are a lot more than the prescribed "15" abilities, unless you don't count spells and weapon skills this appears to indicate less "class flavor" as opposed to more. I guess we'll just have to wait for...

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#22 Nov 11 2011 at 2:22 PM Rating: Decent
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I wouldn't worry about the Weaponskills too much. Weaponskills such as WhyDoIExist and SameAsThatOneReally can just go away. The reactive weaponskills, such as Phalanx could be turned into traits with a decent proc rate (counter 1 out of 3 blocked hits with Phalanx automatically). The tiered abilities will just lose the extra tiers and scale instead.

THM and CON spells on the other hand... Well, I think we're about to see their roles as DD and Healer become quite pronounced. THM is going to be the nuking class, and CON will be the healing class. That much has already been stated. I can't imagine that either class will be able to hang onto all of their utilitarian abilities. The only good solution to this problem is a 3rd mage class. I'd love to think that they're going to surprise us in a week or so by announcing that Arcanist will be added in 1.20, but I seriously doubt they have any new classes up their sleeve until we're well into 2.0. Oh well, one can dream.

Oh, at any rate, I'm pretty sure that Spells and Weaponskills are counted as abilities. They will eliminate redundancy and add utility to what's left, and we will have 15 useful abilities per class... I hope.
#23 Nov 11 2011 at 2:36 PM Rating: Good
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Honestly I thought the issue about skills was pretty straightforward for melee classes.

"All of your tier abilities are condensed into one ability that will scale with level."

So no Skewer I and II, just Skewer.

No Bloodbath I and II, just Bloodbath.

And so on and so forth. That should trim many melee jobs down so that they won't be losing much, if anything at all in terms of abilities that fit into the core 15 limit.

Mages will have more trouble, particularly conjurer. It will be interesting to see the details come out on them.
#24 Nov 11 2011 at 3:08 PM Rating: Good
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I'll be quite interested to see exactly how radically the class abilities are going to be changed based on this information. It goes without saying that all of the classes are going to be trimmed down a bit in terms of active abilities. Lancer has 23 "abilities" (2 traits) discounting second tiers. This means that at least 8 distinct abilities will be trimmed off. But that is based on the assumption that the new ability sets will be subsets of the current abilities. It is also possible that they scrapped most of the current abilities and have made entirely new ones.

I would lean towards it being more likely a mix of the two, but that is exactly why I am so interested to find out now. For good or bad, this change promises to be quite interesting.

I'm not sure I would suggest taking anything for granted at this point. It is not outside the realm of possibility that everything we know about class builds and purposes is about to be shaken up; and while I suppose that is to be expected, given the scope of the changes, it is still very much up in the air exactly what is the scope of the changes.

Edited, Nov 11th 2011 4:12pm by Hulan
#25 Nov 11 2011 at 3:37 PM Rating: Good
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I have a feeling they might add abilities that ues to belong to x class and put it on x job instead so that you know those abilities can only be used for that class. In a sense I kind of feel like abilities that were x class only will now be tied down to a class and all 15 abilities that each class learns will be useable on any class.
#26 Nov 11 2011 at 6:46 PM Rating: Decent
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YoshiP wrote:
Introduce a character development system and battle elements distinct to FINAL FANTASY XIV.


Yay!

YoshiP wrote:
Upper tiers of an action (such as Fire II and Fire III) will be abolished in favor of a system wherein potency and MP cost are scaled based on the player’s level.



Smiley: dubious
#27 Nov 11 2011 at 7:44 PM Rating: Decent
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Pertaining to conjurer there are 68 "spells" including Nature's Fury and Elemental Shroud. If they trim off the tiers, that would leave 46 spells if you including rebirth and the like which still seems like too much. I am curious to see how they will further trim down Con in light of the advanced jobs being released. The mage jobs are kind of a mish mosh to begin with that contain cures, buffs, damage, etc. Can't wait to see where it leads...
#28 Nov 11 2011 at 11:41 PM Rating: Good
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I'm telling you right now if I am stuck with the same animation for cure, fire, blizzard, etc from 1 to 50... they will never see a dime from me.
#29 Nov 12 2011 at 2:28 AM Rating: Decent
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ScorpionEx wrote:
Ugh, why are they changing the tier system, that has been a trade mark of Final Fantasy since the early years. Whether they were differentiated by Tier number, or a -ra,-ga etc. It worked, and I don't see the reason for a change.
Chances are they have some caster mechanics in the pipes that have something to do with spells cast, and down-ranking spells have a tendency to abuse said mechanics in ways not intended by the developers. Only thing I can think of, really. It might also have to do with the limits they're placing on abilities from other classes that you can set.
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#30 Nov 12 2011 at 4:06 AM Rating: Decent
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Combos (name tentative)

Just call them skillchains, already. We won't judge you.
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#31 Nov 12 2011 at 5:37 AM Rating: Default
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Does gladiator have a dps option yet?

Can they dual-wield yet?

These are the things I demand to know.

Also, if Sentinel is being removed and rolled into Gladiator, what will become of those shield-bearing Thaumaturges? They can equip shield skills as off-class, I'm sure, but will their defense proc rate change now that there's no Sentinel skill?
#32 Nov 12 2011 at 10:26 AM Rating: Good
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My conj almost have shield to 50. I guess that'll all be gone when I level my glad.Smiley: frown
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#33 Nov 13 2011 at 6:10 AM Rating: Decent
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Warmech wrote:
My conj almost have shield to 50. I guess that'll all be gone when I level my glad.Smiley: frown


I assumed that they meant that sentinel would be lost altogether. And that any progress in shield skill would have to be gained by Gladiators. So any other jobs that wanted to use a shield would have to set GLD abilities. NOT sentinel. So unless you have GLD lvl'd all your progress would be erased.
#34 Nov 13 2011 at 8:01 AM Rating: Decent
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FluEpidemic wrote:
Warmech wrote:
My conj almost have shield to 50. I guess that'll all be gone when I level my glad.Smiley: frown


I assumed that they meant that sentinel would be lost altogether. And that any progress in shield skill would have to be gained by Gladiators. So any other jobs that wanted to use a shield would have to set GLD abilities. NOT sentinel. So unless you have GLD lvl'd all your progress would be erased.


Yeah, it's basically saying any "shield skills" left over after this massive ability purge will be rolled into gladiator, and the shield skill will be entirely removed.
#35 Nov 13 2011 at 8:50 AM Rating: Good
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Magnesium02 wrote:
Upper tiers of an action (such as Fire II and Fire III) will be abolished in favor of a system wherein potency and MP cost are scaled based on the player’s level.


I completely disagree with this change. I think if Yoshi is really trying to make the game FF-esque then this is a must have. There have been very few games in the series without this tiered structure.

I have been pleasantly surprised in the past by changes Yoshi has made and will reserve total judgement but I still think this is the wrong move.

Edited, Nov 13th 2011 9:55am by kainsilv
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#36 Nov 13 2011 at 9:55 AM Rating: Good
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It will be extremely unfortunate if there are no visual distinctions between a lv50 and lv1 fire spell, heck, even as a Gladiator I appreciated skills like Phalanx II having different visuals.

Obviously they're dropping the number of abilities to make things easier to balance, and tiers go along with that, otherwise spell casters can't fit nicely into the 15 ability limit.

If they do implement a visual distinction based on reaching a level threshold, I don't see why they don't also tier or -a -ara -aga -aja the tiers as well. If they already have the code to deal with the exceptional case of visual distinction, changing the name of the spell shouldn't be too difficult. I'd say that's just as much as an important distinction in Final Fantasy as having different particle effects for more powerful spells.

Hopefully they realize this at some point.
#37 Nov 13 2011 at 12:21 PM Rating: Decent
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RamseySylph wrote:
Obviously they're dropping the number of abilities to make things easier to balance, and tiers go along with that, otherwise spell casters can't fit nicely into the 15 ability limit.


It also says a lot about the amount of effort they're going to be putting into this: an arbitrary blanket is cast over all classes, and spells and abilities just grow on a simple mathematical curve with the character. It's easy and efficient, on one hand, but it's also uninspired and lazy.

"We'll enhance the unique feel of classes by making them all learn the same number of abilities and traits at the exact same, predictable levels!* We'll make the game more like a 'true' Final Fantasy by eliminating tiered spells** and by using a backpack-based inventory system!***" Good luck, guys. XD

*(every even level, of course, since WoW liked to do that)
**(just as it works in WoW)
***(that is to say, WoW's inventory system)
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#38 Nov 13 2011 at 2:02 PM Rating: Good
KaneKitty wrote:
RamseySylph wrote:
Obviously they're dropping the number of abilities to make things easier to balance, and tiers go along with that, otherwise spell casters can't fit nicely into the 15 ability limit.


It also says a lot about the amount of effort they're going to be putting into this: an arbitrary blanket is cast over all classes, and spells and abilities just grow on a simple mathematical curve with the character. It's easy and efficient, on one hand, but it's also uninspired and lazy.

"We'll enhance the unique feel of classes by making them all learn the same number of abilities and traits at the exact same, predictable levels!* We'll make the game more like a 'true' Final Fantasy by eliminating tiered spells** and by using a backpack-based inventory system!***" Good luck, guys. XD

*(every even level, of course, since WoW liked to do that)
**(just as it works in WoW)
***(that is to say, WoW's inventory system)


While I do see a correlation between how WoW does this (as you have pointedly insinuated) and the way that Yoshi-P intends to do this, I think that merely pointing to similarities between systems does not equate poor decision making. Disregarding successful predecessors was the primary mistake of the first development team. The "unique" feeling of the game comes in the form of story, graphics, and the upcoming Job system. If you stack every "WoW" system function on top of that idea you WILL have a successful game. Take this with a grain of salt, making the systems similar to "WoW" can be see as "making the systems similar to the best aspects of every other game that has had a modicum of success." This is not lazy or poor design, it is shrewd use of tried and proven design. Building upon the success of others is never a bad idea. Improving on those systems is what leads to success. I understand and support the changes to abilities, and like others I hope that graphics improve as the spell or ability's power increases, but I also expect that these "Class based" abilities will receive less use than the "Job based" abilities at higher levels. Yes the visuals are critical to the uniqueness of a FF franchise, but functionality must be a higher priority at this point in development than a spell or ability's name.
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#39 Nov 13 2011 at 5:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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Also, for anyone who is an accomplishment hunter like me, the fact that they are removing the whole Guild Mark situation may mean that all the accomplishments for purchasing skills could go away forever.
#40 Nov 14 2011 at 12:44 AM Rating: Decent
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Magnesium02 wrote:
Also, for anyone who is an accomplishment hunter like me, the fact that they are removing the whole Guild Mark situation may mean that all the accomplishments for purchasing skills could go away forever.
If they're smart, they'll make those accomplishments into Feats of Strength like WoW does, so that they still show up as something that was there prior to the major changes.
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#41 Nov 14 2011 at 2:08 AM Rating: Good
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Magnesium02 wrote:
Also, for anyone who is an accomplishment hunter like me, the fact that they are removing the whole Guild Mark situation may mean that all the accomplishments for purchasing skills could go away forever.


Welcome to the world of crafters circa... A few weeks ago?

If they scrap guild marks entirely, I really find myself wondering why they don't just scrap the guilds altogether and convert classes to jobs, but I am sure we will bear witness to the infinite wisdom of how to repair a car in motion. You can take the engine out, as long as it's going down hill for a while!
#42 Nov 14 2011 at 7:06 AM Rating: Decent
RamseySylph wrote:
Magnesium02 wrote:
Also, for anyone who is an accomplishment hunter like me, the fact that they are removing the whole Guild Mark situation may mean that all the accomplishments for purchasing skills could go away forever.


Welcome to the world of crafters circa... A few weeks ago?

If they scrap guild marks entirely, I really find myself wondering why they don't just scrap the guilds altogether and convert classes to jobs, but I am sure we will bear witness to the infinite wisdom of how to repair a car in motion. You can take the engine out, as long as it's going down hill for a while!


I agree that the Guild Marks and purchasable abilities / traits are unique design elements that I found attractive, but the class guilds also contribute to the game in the form of unique class quests. Doing away with the guilds, or wiping out the class system would, in my opinion, take away from the peculiar design of the game - I do not mean this in a negative connotation, rather it is these peculiarities that add depth and character to the game. With the new direction of abilities I see the removal of the marks and abilities as necessary, but feel that perhaps marks should be re-purposed towards unlocking quest items which would set players on the path of obtaining JSE. This would allow for the continued development of the class guilds. Yes, I know JSE is for Jobs, but since Classes serve as the foundation of the Jobs (THM unlocks BLM, etc) conceivably we could unlock BLM quests through the use of Guild currency. This could still work even with Jobs that require multiple Classes, simply have some of the JSE quest items in multiple guilds. Fair thought?

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#43 Nov 14 2011 at 8:52 AM Rating: Good
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Magnesium02 wrote:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/30501?p=441509#post441509

Quote:
[dev1206] Class Reforms

* The following changes and additions are planned for patch 1.20.
* All features are under development and subject to change and postponement.


We would like to take a moment to outline the class reforms scheduled for patch 1.20 as well as explain the impetus behind the changes.

In carrying out class reforms, we aim to:

Streamline the Armoury system.
Accentuate the uniqueness of each class.
Introduce a character development system and battle elements distinct to FINAL FANTASY XIV.

The Armoury system offers high levels of freedom, allowing players to switch classes simply by changing their equipped weapon. By the same token, however, the system has been deemed unnecessarily complicated when it comes to gear restrictions and setting actions, and is also bothersome from a UI standpoint.

Furthermore, no differentiation is currently being made between setting an action learned through the current class and one belonging to another. This has rendered it difficult for each class to retain its uniqueness.

To address these issues, patch 1.20 will see the adjustment and redistribution of actions for all classes. New actions will be added, and individual combos (name tentative) introduced. Further down the track, patch 1.21 will usher in the job system, which will serve as a new focal point for character development.
* The inner workings of actions will be prioritized in 1.20, and graphical resources will be reused where possible. Cosmetic changes are expected to commence from patch 1.21 and continue in stages ahead of Version 2.0.


Changes to the mechanics of actions scheduled for patch 1.20 are outlined below. Details such as the concept behind each class and a list of specific actions scheduled for adjustments will be released at a later date. The explanations are centered on battle classes; however, the same changes will apply to Disciples of both the Hand and the Land where the setting of actions is concerned.


* The following revisions have yet to be finalized and are subject to change.


1. Class-specific Actions

The following changes will be made to class-specific actions:

Actions learnable by each class will undergo comprehensive review and revision.

At present, only executable actions such as abilities, spells, and weaponskills can be learned by gaining in level. This will be revised to include traits.

Upper tiers of an action (such as Fire II and Fire III) will be abolished in favor of a system wherein potency and MP cost are scaled based on the player’s level.

Fifteen actions and eleven traits will be made available for each class up to level 50, with either one action or trait learned for every two levels gained. Job-exclusive actions will be made obtainable via quests and treated separately.
* For information on actions and their levels, please refer to 4. Setting Actions and Traits.

A comprehensive list of actions scheduled for change will be released in the near future.


2. Traits and Guild Tokens


As mentioned above, traits will be learned as players rise in level. As such, the system wherein traits are obtained in exchange for guild tokens will be abolished.

Methods are being considered to reimburse players for the guild tokens they have spent on acquiring traits. Discussion is ongoing whether to devise alternate uses for guild tokens or do away with them completely. In the case of the latter, we will provide players with a means to exchange their tokens for gil, company seals, and items. Details will be announced pending finalization.


3. Shield Skill

Not being bound to any class in particular, the shield skill has been handled as an irregularity when it came to the obtainment of experience points and actions. In reviewing the identity of each class, it was decided that shield actions should be made a part of the gladiator ******** In order to streamline the system and accentuate class uniqueness, the shield skill will be phased out and instead take the form of actions and traits learnable by gladiators.

Please be aware that the above changes will render all gains associated with the shield skill (levels and EXP) invalid.


4. Setting Actions and Traits

The following reforms will be made to the conditions for setting actions and traits:

Upon learning an action for your current class, that action will automatically be set to the action bar and cannot be voluntarily removed. It will be possible, however, to move the action to another slot.

Action costs will be abolished. Instead, a cap will be imposed upon the number of actions from other classes that can be set. The cap will be determined by the level of your current class.

Players will no longer be bound by level restrictions when setting actions from other classes.
For instance, a level 1 pugilist will be able to set a level 30 gladiator action. However, the effectiveness of that action will be scaled down accordingly.

All traits will be made class-exclusive.
Adjustments will be made so that certain actions will only unleash their full potential when paired with traits belonging to the same class.

In conjunction with the above changes, the Actions & Traits interface will undergo redesign in order to make action placement and repositioning more intuitive. Readying an action for use will become a two-step process: players set an action, after which they will have the opportunity to rearrange the action bar.


The levels at which actions and traits are learned, along with the cap for setting actions from other classes, are as follows:

[table]

5. The Influence of Levels on Actions

As mentioned under 1. Class-specific Actions, upper tier actions will be abolished in favor of scaling the potency of the base action according to level. The effectiveness and MP cost of the action will be dependent upon the level of your current class.


6. Individual Combos (name tentative)

As part of action reforms planned for patch 1.20, a system will be implemented wherein the majority of weaponskills and spells will receive a bonus if certain conditions are met. Conditions fall into the categories listed below, the third of which pertains to combos.

Position

Striking the enemy from the direction specified, e.g., the flank.

Status

Avoiding or incurring enmity from the enemy in question and so forth.

Sequence

Landing the specified weaponskill or spell on the enemy immediately beforehand.

Not only will a successful combo grant you the bonus indicated; TP cost will also be waived for the weaponskill used to execute it. For a combo to be valid, however, the weaponskill in question must be used with the class or job to which it belongs.

Examples of weaponskills and their bonus conditions:

WS1
Weaponskill 1 Deal physical damage to a single target. Damage increases by 20% when executed from the front.
WS2
Weaponskill 2 Deal physical damage to a single target, increasing enmity.
Combo: Weaponskill 1 Bonus: Enmity+50%
WS3
Weaponskill 3 Deal physical damage to a single target.
Combo: Weaponskill 1 Bonus: Damage+20%
WS4
Weaponskill 4 Deal physical damage to a single target. Inflicts gradual HP reduction when executed from behind.
Combo: Weaponskill 3 Bonus: HP reduction +25%

Individually executed, the above weaponskills will deal out only what is indicated in the first line of their descriptions. The bonuses granted by weaponskills 1 and 4 (Damage+20% and Gradually reduces HP, respectively) are dependent on positioning.

Weaponskills 2 through 4 each offer a combo bonus. For instance, performing 2 immediately after landing 1 will grant you Enmity+50%. Furthermore, the TP cost for performing 2 will be waived. In the case of the above weaponskills, the following two combinations can be identified:
1) 1 → 2
2) 1 → 3 → 4

Please note that all bonus conditions must be fulfilled for a weaponskill to be considered valid in a combo. For this reason, 3 → 4 alone do not form a combo, as 1 is a requirement for 3.

In addition to system messages, consideration is being given to graphically display combos





Edited, Nov 11th 2011 5:41am by Magnesium02



Playing Skyrim... like many others I'll care in about a weak.. See you in a week...
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#44 Nov 14 2011 at 12:18 PM Rating: Decent
TwiddleDee wrote:
Playing Skyrim... like many others I'll care in about a weak.. See you in a week...


Eh, should have known that was where everyone was.
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#45 Nov 14 2011 at 2:31 PM Rating: Decent
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Interesting tidbit from the official translation of the Live Producer letter, I missed this listening in Japanese, probably because I was mostly asleep...

Quote:
As you have pointed out, a gladiator will change to a paladin and as a result his HP will be lowered but his DEF will increase considerably. This means his ability to tank will be enhanced by no small amount. Paladins will also have the ability “Cover” to shield his party members, which would make him the ultimate tank.


So we know (more or less) for sure Cover is being cut from Gladiator's ability list in these changes, as it's going to be a unique Paladin skill. Which I suppose makes sense, because it's a skill that's defined the job since its inception.

That said... What the balls? HP lowered and DEF increased? (Incoming nerd-rage hyperbolic statements) I really hope for once YoshiP is talking out of his *** and made that line up. Because if not they don't understand their own game, or intend to dramatically change encounter mechanics by 1.21.

As far as I understand and have experienced, HP far outclasses defense in any worthwhile encounter, because most of the damage ends up coming from, surprise surprise, magic and abilities that essentially ignore defense. And while cover is certainly nice, and I try to make use of it as much as possible because I love (and will miss it on Gladiator) the ability... I seriously hope they intend to improve it if they are going to imply that somehow nerfing our stats and giving us back an ability we already had as Gladiator will make us the "ultimate tank."

Unless cover starts absorbing magic damage or aoe damage that a covered target would take, is put on a significantly lower cool down, so that you can switch cover targets frequently (but not reduced duration, simply limited to one person) or made into a passive trait, so that we're always covering who's behind us, I'm really skeptical about the differences between classes and jobs.

#46 Nov 14 2011 at 3:20 PM Rating: Good
For nuking and DD I can understand the eliminating the tiers a bit but as a healer I am a little worried about losing my multi-tier cures but I'm not going to panic until I see the rest of the class changes. Who knows, they might have something good up their sleeves.

And while I would not be bothered by the same animations at level 1 as 50 if they were different as they scaled up, that would be nice.
#47 Nov 14 2011 at 3:22 PM Rating: Good
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RamseySylph wrote:
Interesting tidbit from the official translation of the Live Producer letter, I missed this listening in Japanese, probably because I was mostly asleep...

Quote:
As you have pointed out, a gladiator will change to a paladin and as a result his HP will be lowered but his DEF will increase considerably. This means his ability to tank will be enhanced by no small amount. Paladins will also have the ability “Cover” to shield his party members, which would make him the ultimate tank.


So we know (more or less) for sure Cover is being cut from Gladiator's ability list in these changes, as it's going to be a unique Paladin skill. Which I suppose makes sense, because it's a skill that's defined the job since its inception.

That said... What the balls? HP lowered and DEF increased? (Incoming nerd-rage hyperbolic statements) I really hope for once YoshiP is talking out of his *** and made that line up. Because if not they don't understand their own game, or intend to dramatically change encounter mechanics by 1.21.

As far as I understand and have experienced, HP far outclasses defense in any worthwhile encounter, because most of the damage ends up coming from, surprise surprise, magic and abilities that essentially ignore defense. And while cover is certainly nice, and I try to make use of it as much as possible because I love (and will miss it on Gladiator) the ability... I seriously hope they intend to improve it if they are going to imply that somehow nerfing our stats and giving us back an ability we already had as Gladiator will make us the "ultimate tank."

Unless cover starts absorbing magic damage or aoe damage that a covered target would take, is put on a significantly lower cool down, so that you can switch cover targets frequently (but not reduced duration, simply limited to one person) or made into a passive trait, so that we're always covering who's behind us, I'm really skeptical about the differences between classes and jobs.




If i recall correctly in XI the reason why PLD was a good tank had little to do with HP. My 75 PLD had around 1400HP, while my MNK had 1900. DEF, VIT, physical dmg down, - magic dmg down, skills and shield were the reason PLD was great. Sure i had my HP +2000 armor for spirits but after the WS all that was tossed for tanking armor.

After the change if a PLD has 15% less HP, but takes only 50% dmg from it would still be a fair trade.
3600HP GLA getting hit for 1000 or
3000HP PLD getting hit for 500!

Edited, Nov 14th 2011 4:22pm by TwiddleDee
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#48 Nov 14 2011 at 3:44 PM Rating: Decent
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TwiddleDee wrote:
Lots of stuff about damage reduction and FFXI


First of all, this isn't FFXI. While I understand your point, you actually discredit your own argument by bringing up FFXI. It's been years since Paladin was a relevant class in FFXI, unless things have changed very recently (possible.) Bringing up any intricacies about FFXI is really wasted breath.

On the topic of FFXIV though, he said raised defense, not "flat damage reduction" those are two very, very different things. Certainly if Paladin got a flat 50% damage reduction and only a 15% nerf to HP I would agree that Paladin definitely is a much better tank. But those numbers came directly from your backside, and are very exaggerated.

But again, defense =/= flat damage reduction. My point was that in Final Fantasy XIV (Not FFXI, we're not talking about that game.) HP > Defense by in large, thanks to most encounters revolving around spell and ability damage that isn't affected by defense.

So unless we're getting a flat damage reduction on top of defense, or we're getting some large boost to magical defense that wasn't stated, losing HP to gain defense is more of a nerf than anything. Unless encounter mechanics change dramatically in two patches. And that's not even mentioning my concerns with cover.
#49 Nov 14 2011 at 4:18 PM Rating: Decent
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RamseySylph wrote:
TwiddleDee wrote:
Lots of stuff about damage reduction and FFXI


First of all, this isn't FFXI. While I understand your point, you actually discredit your own argument by bringing up FFXI. It's been years since Paladin was a relevant class in FFXI, unless things have changed very recently (possible.) Bringing up any intricacies about FFXI is really wasted breath.

On the topic of FFXIV though, he said raised defense, not "flat damage reduction" those are two very, very different things. Certainly if Paladin got a flat 50% damage reduction and only a 15% nerf to HP I would agree that Paladin definitely is a much better tank. But those numbers came directly from your backside, and are very exaggerated.

But again, defense =/= flat damage reduction. My point was that in Final Fantasy XIV (Not FFXI, we're not talking about that game.) HP > Defense by in large, thanks to most encounters revolving around spell and ability damage that isn't affected by defense.

So unless we're getting a flat damage reduction on top of defense, or we're getting some large boost to magical defense that wasn't stated, losing HP to gain defense is more of a nerf than anything. Unless encounter mechanics change dramatically in two patches. And that's not even mentioning my concerns with cover.



That's the thing though, no one except Yoshi-P and SE knows what changes will really happen and there significance. My assumptions are no more or no less valid then yours. And considering that PLD will be in 2 patches as stated the game mechanics could very well have changed by then. Or will change soon after.

As well how did you conclude that the HP loss for the DEF gain will be a nerf? Do you know what skills PLD will have available? no. In the realm of assumptions you have a point however until more facts are out i would not jump at the nerf hammer yet.

Food for though... you level classes under the same principle as going to class, it's to learn and make a solid foundation. When you have the correct classes done you specialize to a job. With that in mind why would SE make a Job in any way inferior to a Class??
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#50 Nov 14 2011 at 6:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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TwiddleDee wrote:
why would SE make a Job in any way inferior to a Class??


Have you seen Final Fantasy XIV?
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#51 Nov 14 2011 at 6:13 PM Rating: Decent
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TwiddleDee wrote:
...why would SE make a Job in any way inferior to a Class??


The fact that you're asking this question leads me to believe you're not entirely sure you know what you're talking about. KaneKitty's witty remarks aside, the development team has stated repeatedly that they intend for some situations, such as solo, low man and certain party situations to arise where the more flexible class system would be better put to use.

They essentially are saying "you'll still use classes." If jobs were superior in every way, no one would ever play a class, and thus classes would be pointless. So unless we FF1 style permanently adopt a new job to replace our old class, Warrior>Knight, Thief>Ninja style (which is hilariously ironic because he actually talked about a thief style class becoming a ninja job) the class system has to have some advantages.

Not only that, just the mere statement that the class will have more HP already indicates that the class will be stronger in some regards. You have a point, the game is changing, which is why I can say "I hope things turn out great!" but I don't see and haven't heard of any plans to dramatically rework the style of encounters we currently face, which all make defense significantly less valuable than HP. We'll see though!
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