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Class Reforms (11/11/2011)Follow

#52TwiddleDee, Posted: Nov 15 2011 at 9:20 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Kitty with a Kane up it's *** remarks aside. I know exactly what i am talking about, though i may have word it poorly but i think the point i was making is still there. A Job will be the specialist in a given area, while Classes will be the jack of all trades. Meaning that depending on the situation you may need a class or a job. However without going on a tangent, a Job be it PLD,MNK,WHM,BLM,WAR,exe will be superior to it counter part. Example a MRD can DPS and main/sub Tank however it's still a DPS. So when you go MRD to WAR (assuming here) you loos the tank capability for better DPS. So from what i have gathered a job will improve the main function of the class. GLD > PLD better tank, MRD > WAR better dps, exe.
#53 Nov 15 2011 at 10:37 AM Rating: Good
So they are taking out the very best part of FFXIV, which to me is the choice to set whatever abilities you have unlocked on any class.

This will make leveling 1-30 even more challenging, as higher level abilities from other classes will be nerfed. Will they balance the lower level mobs to make up for this?

Probably not. You can always PL right?

Ridiculous.
#54 Nov 15 2011 at 12:32 PM Rating: Decent
SmashingtonWho wrote:
So they are taking out the very best part of FFXIV, which to me is the choice to set whatever abilities you have unlocked on any class.

This will make leveling 1-30 even more challenging, as higher level abilities from other classes will be nerfed. Will they balance the lower level mobs to make up for this?

Probably not. You can always PL right?

Ridiculous.


Balance the lower level mobs? I'm not sure where you're leveling, but I have yet to see a leve mob or equal level mob which required that I grab abilities from other classes in-order to take it down (NMs do not count here). If you feel that your class is to weak using it's skills alone then I'm sure that it will be addressed as a part of the class balancing system. You're either missing the fact that you will have full access to all of your "in-class" abilities and a limited number of "out-of-class" abilities, or ignoring it out-right - either way this is far from "ridiculous," it is genius.

Regarding the "Job" system, I think there needs to be a lot more explanation on how the system will work, otherwise we'll all just continue chasing our tails on the topic.

Edited, Nov 15th 2011 1:35pm by Dyrwydi
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#55 Nov 15 2011 at 1:02 PM Rating: Good
Professor Dyrwydi wrote:
Regarding the "Job" system, I think there needs to be a lot more explanation on how the system will work, otherwise we'll all just continue chasing our tails on the topic.


http://massively.joystiq.com/2011/10/21/our-interview-with-final-fantasy-xivs-naoki-yoshida-part-2/
Follow link above to full article.

Quote:

Let's say you're looking to become a Paladin and unlock the job. What we're planning is that you can get your Gladiator to level 30 and you also get your Marauder to level 15 – and please note that these numbers are not set in stone. When both conditions have been met, you can unlock a quest, which you can accept to unlock the Paladin job.

Once that class is unlocked, you will earn a job stone (again, not necessarily the final name). When you equip that, you can change your class into the Paladin job. Beyond the level 30 quest through which you get the job stone, there will also be quests at, say, levels 35, 40, 45, and 50 – just as an example – that deliver you the story of the Paladin job.

The level of the jobs will always be connected with the base class, so by earning experience as a Gladiator, you will make your Paladin stronger, and any experience earned as a Paladin will go toward your Gladiator experience. There's no necessity to go and raise your Paladin separately from your Gladiator. However, there will be job-specific weapons and armor, and to unlock these, you'll need to do the quests after unlocking the jobs. Similarly, weaponskills and abilities won't be earned through levels but by doing those quests. Experience is how you improve your classes, but the quest chains are how you improve your jobs.

Obviously, the question is what's different between a class and a job. After discussing with the battle team how we wanted to do this, we decided that for light parties and casual play, we wanted players using the class system where you can freely mix and match abilities to make an all-around type of character. Jobs we want to make more specialized, like you see in a lot of other MMOs, such as where the Paladin would be designed as a tank. They have special abilities to defend other party members, and while attack power might be lower, they'll have abilities that will enhance defense and allow them to play a certain role in their party.


More on topic, completely abandoning the balance of lower level classes because PL is an option is indeed ridiculous. I'm talking about new players. Until you find an LS there are no good options to level 10-30. They have abandonded the solo play aspect and currently the system is depressingly slow. From what I'm seeing, the new ability system will only make these levels harder for solo.

That would be fine if parties were available, but the option to PL has reduced the availability of party members. Even more so for the experienced players who used to be most likely to create and lead low level parties.

Fight now, for new players, FFXIV is "get in an LS who is willing to PL you or suffer through mindless, low reward Leves or grinding".

Ridiculous.


Edited, Nov 15th 2011 2:12pm by SmashingtonWho
#56 Nov 15 2011 at 2:11 PM Rating: Good
SmashingtonWho wrote:
Professor Dyrwydi wrote:
Regarding the "Job" system, I think there needs to be a lot more explanation on how the system will work, otherwise we'll all just continue chasing our tails on the topic.


http://massively.joystiq.com/2011/10/21/our-interview-with-final-fantasy-xivs-naoki-yoshida-part-2/
Follow link above to full article.

Quote:

Let's say you're looking to become a Paladin and unlock the job. What we're planning is that you can get your Gladiator to level 30 and you also get your Marauder to level 15 – and please note that these numbers are not set in stone. When both conditions have been met, you can unlock a quest, which you can accept to unlock the Paladin job.

Once that class is unlocked, you will earn a job stone (again, not necessarily the final name). When you equip that, you can change your class into the Paladin job. Beyond the level 30 quest through which you get the job stone, there will also be quests at, say, levels 35, 40, 45, and 50 – just as an example – that deliver you the story of the Paladin job.

The level of the jobs will always be connected with the base class, so by earning experience as a Gladiator, you will make your Paladin stronger, and any experience earned as a Paladin will go toward your Gladiator experience. There's no necessity to go and raise your Paladin separately from your Gladiator. However, there will be job-specific weapons and armor, and to unlock these, you'll need to do the quests after unlocking the jobs. Similarly, weaponskills and abilities won't be earned through levels but by doing those quests. Experience is how you improve your classes, but the quest chains are how you improve your jobs.

Obviously, the question is what's different between a class and a job. After discussing with the battle team how we wanted to do this, we decided that for light parties and casual play, we wanted players using the class system where you can freely mix and match abilities to make an all-around type of character. Jobs we want to make more specialized, like you see in a lot of other MMOs, such as where the Paladin would be designed as a tank. They have special abilities to defend other party members, and while attack power might be lower, they'll have abilities that will enhance defense and allow them to play a certain role in their party.


More on topic, completely abandoning the balance of lower level classes because PL is an option is indeed ridiculous. I'm talking about new players. Until you find an LS there are no good options to level 10-30. They have abandonded the solo play aspect and currently the system is depressingly slow. From what I'm seeing, the new ability system will only make these levels harder for solo.

That would be fine if parties were available, but the option to PL has reduced the availability of party members. Even more so for the experienced players who used to be most likely to create and lead low level parties.

Fight now, for new players, FFXIV is "get in an LS who is willing to PL you or suffer through mindless, low reward Leves or grinding".

Ridiculous.
Edited, Nov 15th 2011 2:12pm by SmashingtonWho


Now this I can agree with, the linear design concept of "get to level cap to really play the game" is ridiculous. For many casual players this is all they will do during their time in game. Level one class after another, focusing on gathering gil, special crafted armour and tinkering in their gardens (pending). To leave them nothing but an endless mire of loneliness is not the way to keep them playing. This is another area that WoW excelled - as the game developed and more players were starting over with new toons, they created new and revamped old content so that the climb to cap was different, maintaining a modicum of interest while slogging one's way back to 60, 70, 80, 85 w/e. Sure there was some content that repeated, but the constant change of scenery, different mobs, etc encountered along the way helped to break up the monotony. In my opinion it is the lack of such content which necessitates the continuance of PLing. Monotony, not speed is the cause of the problem and until that is addressed the PLing must go on.

Oh, and thanks for the link, I've been trying to remember where I had read it. Here's the problem though, that interview has so many caveats in it that Yoshi-P could go in the opposite direction with the system and still say "well, that was the theory at the time." I am really looking for Dev details on how the system will work before I do anything more than carry on conversation with the all parties recognizing that anything discussed is merely conjecture based on the posturing of the lead dev, not anything set in stone.
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#57 Nov 16 2011 at 11:49 AM Rating: Good
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ScorpionEx wrote:
Ugh, why are they changing the tier system, that has been a trade mark of Final Fantasy since the early years. Whether they were differentiated by Tier number, or a -ra,-ga etc. It worked, and I don't see the reason for a change.

So now, instead of a progressively more impressive animation for a elemental line, we'll get one spell that'll we cast from day one? Fun.



I am playing FFII at the moment and what they are introducing in terms of spell power is somewhat like this.

Although I prefer the FFII job system over what XIV is becoming. It's too bad they abandoned the armory, which was/is the coolest part of the game because people complained that classes weren't cookie cutter enough.

I think the only real flaw of the armory is it didn't go far enough. They should have made it more like a combination of FFII and tactics - no classes at all (for people to complain about) and proficiency requirements on weapons (with weapons teaching special abilities) - same with spells - you buy a spell, and as your "elemental magic" skill goes up you can unlock higher tier spells but spell power (like the power of your sword) is determined by how often you use the specific spell.

Do you nuke with Thunder constantly? Your thunder spell level will be higher. You would also gain thunder affinity points, which would reduce the damage you take from thunder based abilities and would also make thunder based weapon skills stronger.

HP and MP could also increase as you play, just like they do in FFII. I dunno, I see games like Skyrim where how you build your character is totally up to you and your preferences and the time you put in, and people love it. Why bother getting all twisted about jobs? Not every FF has jobs, so XIV didn't need to either.

Heck they could have still had artifact armor as well and special abilities that you learn from it that helps define your role. Want Paladin Plate mail? Well in order to start the quest you need level 25 sword, 1000 HP 500 MP, Cure 7, 50 VIT and 50 Spirit

Then wearing each piece would unlock skills like Cover, Rampart, shield bash, etc.

This type of system would have encouraged players of all "levels" to play together too - since when you started on a new weapon you would be back to hacking up marmots (and if you tried to shortcut it by blasting them with Thunder V you wouldn't get dagger skill ups)

Instead we get the same old same old boring cookie cutter mmo.

Its so sad watching XIV become more and more lame. So much wasted potential.



Edited, Nov 16th 2011 9:52am by Olorinus
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#58 Nov 16 2011 at 1:32 PM Rating: Good
Olorinus wrote:
ScorpionEx wrote:
Ugh, why are they changing the tier system, that has been a trade mark of Final Fantasy since the early years. Whether they were differentiated by Tier number, or a -ra,-ga etc. It worked, and I don't see the reason for a change.

So now, instead of a progressively more impressive animation for a elemental line, we'll get one spell that'll we cast from day one? Fun.



I am playing FFII at the moment and what they are introducing in terms of spell power is somewhat like this.

Although I prefer the FFII job system over what XIV is becoming. It's too bad they abandoned the armory, which was/is the coolest part of the game because people complained that classes weren't cookie cutter enough.

I think the only real flaw of the armory is it didn't go far enough. They should have made it more like a combination of FFII and tactics - no classes at all (for people to complain about) and proficiency requirements on weapons (with weapons teaching special abilities) - same with spells - you buy a spell, and as your "elemental magic" skill goes up you can unlock higher tier spells but spell power (like the power of your sword) is determined by how often you use the specific spell.

Do you nuke with Thunder constantly? Your thunder spell level will be higher. You would also gain thunder affinity points, which would reduce the damage you take from thunder based abilities and would also make thunder based weapon skills stronger.

HP and MP could also increase as you play, just like they do in FFII. I dunno, I see games like Skyrim where how you build your character is totally up to you and your preferences and the time you put in, and people love it. Why bother getting all twisted about jobs? Not every FF has jobs, so XIV didn't need to either.

Heck they could have still had artifact armor as well and special abilities that you learn from it that helps define your role. Want Paladin Plate mail? Well in order to start the quest you need level 25 sword, 1000 HP 500 MP, Cure 7, 50 VIT and 50 Spirit

Then wearing each piece would unlock skills like Cover, Rampart, shield bash, etc.

This type of system would have encouraged players of all "levels" to play together too - since when you started on a new weapon you would be back to hacking up marmots (and if you tried to shortcut it by blasting them with Thunder V you wouldn't get dagger skill ups)


Instead we get the same old same old boring cookie cutter mmo.

Its so sad watching XIV become more and more lame. So much wasted potential.



Edited, Nov 16th 2011 9:52am by Olorinus


Great post, good ideas, well thought out arguments but you seriously ended on a bad note. FFXIV is anything but "cookie cutter" and "...watching XIV become more and more lame" is a strong indicator that you either haven't logged in, or haven't bothered actually playing the game in quite some time. Making XIV a quality game is a lot like turning lumps of giraffe dung into a piece of art (MythBusters - End With a Bang). The quality of game play and functionality has come a long ways, hardly "wasted potential" or "more lame" as you ineloquently put it.
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#59 Nov 16 2011 at 4:57 PM Rating: Good
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2,202 posts
Professor Dyrwydi wrote:
Olorinus wrote:
ScorpionEx wrote:
Ugh, why are they changing the tier system, that has been a trade mark of Final Fantasy since the early years. Whether they were differentiated by Tier number, or a -ra,-ga etc. It worked, and I don't see the reason for a change.

So now, instead of a progressively more impressive animation for a elemental line, we'll get one spell that'll we cast from day one? Fun.



I am playing FFII at the moment and what they are introducing in terms of spell power is somewhat like this.

Although I prefer the FFII job system over what XIV is becoming. It's too bad they abandoned the armory, which was/is the coolest part of the game because people complained that classes weren't cookie cutter enough.

I think the only real flaw of the armory is it didn't go far enough. They should have made it more like a combination of FFII and tactics - no classes at all (for people to complain about) and proficiency requirements on weapons (with weapons teaching special abilities) - same with spells - you buy a spell, and as your "elemental magic" skill goes up you can unlock higher tier spells but spell power (like the power of your sword) is determined by how often you use the specific spell.

Do you nuke with Thunder constantly? Your thunder spell level will be higher. You would also gain thunder affinity points, which would reduce the damage you take from thunder based abilities and would also make thunder based weapon skills stronger.

HP and MP could also increase as you play, just like they do in FFII. I dunno, I see games like Skyrim where how you build your character is totally up to you and your preferences and the time you put in, and people love it. Why bother getting all twisted about jobs? Not every FF has jobs, so XIV didn't need to either.

Heck they could have still had artifact armor as well and special abilities that you learn from it that helps define your role. Want Paladin Plate mail? Well in order to start the quest you need level 25 sword, 1000 HP 500 MP, Cure 7, 50 VIT and 50 Spirit

Then wearing each piece would unlock skills like Cover, Rampart, shield bash, etc.

This type of system would have encouraged players of all "levels" to play together too - since when you started on a new weapon you would be back to hacking up marmots (and if you tried to shortcut it by blasting them with Thunder V you wouldn't get dagger skill ups)


Instead we get the same old same old boring cookie cutter mmo.

Its so sad watching XIV become more and more lame. So much wasted potential.



Edited, Nov 16th 2011 9:52am by Olorinus


Great post, good ideas, well thought out arguments but you seriously ended on a bad note. FFXIV is anything but "cookie cutter" and "...watching XIV become more and more lame" is a strong indicator that you either haven't logged in, or haven't bothered actually playing the game in quite some time. Making XIV a quality game is a lot like turning lumps of giraffe dung into a piece of art (MythBusters - End With a Bang). The quality of game play and functionality has come a long ways, hardly "wasted potential" or "more lame" as you ineloquently put it.


You have to see it from the point of view of somebody who is outside the game, FFXIV has no uniqueness outside it's armory system(Wich is not even that great atm.) The game is very cookie cutter when it comes to content and systems implemented, there is not one thing in this game, that is any different that any other MMO out there, now when you take a look from where the game was, to where it is right now, sure it has improved, but the game was an utter piece of garbage, anything would have been an improvement
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#60 Nov 16 2011 at 5:11 PM Rating: Default
Ostia wrote:

Professor Dyrwydi wrote:
Olorinus wrote:
ScorpionEx wrote:
Ugh, why are they changing the tier system, that has been a trade mark of Final Fantasy since the early years. Whether they were differentiated by Tier number, or a -ra,-ga etc. It worked, and I don't see the reason for a change.

So now, instead of a progressively more impressive animation for a elemental line, we'll get one spell that'll we cast from day one? Fun.



I am playing FFII at the moment and what they are introducing in terms of spell power is somewhat like this.

Although I prefer the FFII job system over what XIV is becoming. It's too bad they abandoned the armory, which was/is the coolest part of the game because people complained that classes weren't cookie cutter enough.

I think the only real flaw of the armory is it didn't go far enough. They should have made it more like a combination of FFII and tactics - no classes at all (for people to complain about) and proficiency requirements on weapons (with weapons teaching special abilities) - same with spells - you buy a spell, and as your "elemental magic" skill goes up you can unlock higher tier spells but spell power (like the power of your sword) is determined by how often you use the specific spell.

Do you nuke with Thunder constantly? Your thunder spell level will be higher. You would also gain thunder affinity points, which would reduce the damage you take from thunder based abilities and would also make thunder based weapon skills stronger.

HP and MP could also increase as you play, just like they do in FFII. I dunno, I see games like Skyrim where how you build your character is totally up to you and your preferences and the time you put in, and people love it. Why bother getting all twisted about jobs? Not every FF has jobs, so XIV didn't need to either.

Heck they could have still had artifact armor as well and special abilities that you learn from it that helps define your role. Want Paladin Plate mail? Well in order to start the quest you need level 25 sword, 1000 HP 500 MP, Cure 7, 50 VIT and 50 Spirit

Then wearing each piece would unlock skills like Cover, Rampart, shield bash, etc.

This type of system would have encouraged players of all "levels" to play together too - since when you started on a new weapon you would be back to hacking up marmots (and if you tried to shortcut it by blasting them with Thunder V you wouldn't get dagger skill ups)


Instead we get the same old same old boring cookie cutter mmo.

Its so sad watching XIV become more and more lame. So much wasted potential.



Edited, Nov 16th 2011 9:52am by Olorinus


Great post, good ideas, well thought out arguments but you seriously ended on a bad note. FFXIV is anything but "cookie cutter" and "...watching XIV become more and more lame" is a strong indicator that you either haven't logged in, or haven't bothered actually playing the game in quite some time. Making XIV a quality game is a lot like turning lumps of giraffe dung into a piece of art (MythBusters - End With a Bang). The quality of game play and functionality has come a long ways, hardly "wasted potential" or "more lame" as you ineloquently put it.



You have to see it from the point of view of somebody who is outside the game, FFXIV has no uniqueness outside it's armory system(Wich is not even that great atm.) The game is very cookie cutter when it comes to content and systems implemented, there is not one thing in this game, that is any different that any other MMO out there, now when you take a look from where the game was, to where it is right now, sure it has improved, but the game was an utter piece of garbage, anything would have been an improvement


Maybe I'm missing something here. You say XIV has no "uniqueness" yet I see no other game with a crafting, gathering or armoury system close to it. You say "the game is very cookie cutter" yet you leave me wondering what exactly you define as such, is it the fact that it is computer based? Perhaps if we had a game where we all camped out in parks and lived our desired adventures instead of playing computerized... oh, no wait, OWS (Occupy Wall Street) beat us to that game, so it would be cookie cutter as well. Combat, story, mobs, landscape, transportation, etc... what do you see as "cookie cutter?"

I look at these comments from the perspective of someone inside the game, someone participating in the Dev discussions, feedback forums and community boards like this one. The perspective of a critic who has not played the game, or is not playing the game is like being willing to accept a Ford Motors driver's opinion of the latest Dodge truck when they have never gotten in and tested it themselves. Making your decisions and trying to contribute to community discussions means that you have to be willing participate in the community, not merely regurgitate other peoples opinions.


Edited, Nov 16th 2011 6:13pm by Dyrwydi
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#61 Nov 16 2011 at 5:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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3,177 posts
It's hard to make content for a game when everyone has every ability and is essentially the same person with a different weapon.


The problem with the free-for-all armoury system is that it's very hard to make a strategic game with that method, unless you limited the size of the party to less people in order to make it challenging even for people who have every ability.



Edited, Nov 16th 2011 3:50pm by UltKnightGrover
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#62 Nov 16 2011 at 8:33 PM Rating: Good
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3,530 posts
UltKnightGrover wrote:
It's hard to make content for a game when everyone has every ability and is essentially the same person with a different weapon.

The problem with the free-for-all armoury system is that it's very hard to make a strategic game with that method, unless you limited the size of the party to less people in order to make it challenging even for people who have every ability.


That's true: you either make it so that players need tons of abilities, and thereby isolate all but those who level many classes; or make it so that you don't really even need other abilities, in which case anyone who levels more than a couple classes will get bored with the ease of it all (and you'll have a hard time convincing many people to bother getting abilities).
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#63 Nov 16 2011 at 10:06 PM Rating: Good
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Even after this next patch, the game will not be cookie cutter. It will more closely conform to industry trends, but that (as we found out at launch) is probably a good thing. I guess I don't play a lot of MMOs, but what are the other ones that allow you to have one character, many classes, and allow you to pick and choose abilities from other classes? I just don't see what's cookie cutter about it.
#64 Nov 17 2011 at 10:52 AM Rating: Excellent
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7,106 posts
Quote:
but what are the other ones that allow you to have one character, many classes, and allow you to pick and choose abilities from other classes?

Rift, which is probably the most successful new MMO in the last few years, and received almost universally positive reviews as well.

And, it's almost certain that Rift's class system is at least partly inspired by FFXI's, but in many ways that's only salt in the wound -- other companies took good ideas from FFXI better than SE took good ideas from FFXI.
#65 Nov 17 2011 at 6:53 PM Rating: Decent
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Caesura, I only played Rift for a couple hours, but I was under the impression that you were limited to the amount of classes you could have in Rift... can you change your main at will in Rift? It would seem that I got the wrong impression of that game's class system.

At any rate, 1 MMO sharing this feature doesn't mean it's cookie cutter. I may have my timeline wrong as well, but didn't Rift come out after FFXIV?
#66 Nov 17 2011 at 11:54 PM Rating: Good
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95 posts

Quote:
5. The Influence of Levels on Actions

As mentioned under 1. Class-specific Actions, upper tier actions will be abolished in favor of scaling the potency of the base action according to level. The effectiveness and MP cost of the action will be dependent upon the level of your current class.


So what if I'm in front of a monster with sliver of health left and I'm running out of MP as a mage and all my skills are scaled up to cost a bomb ? I do not have a choice to use a lower tier magic to finish him off ? Hmmm.....
#67 Nov 18 2011 at 1:16 AM Rating: Good
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2,202 posts
Professor Dyrwydi wrote:
Ostia wrote:

Professor Dyrwydi wrote:
Olorinus wrote:
ScorpionEx wrote:
Ugh, why are they changing the tier system, that has been a trade mark of Final Fantasy since the early years. Whether they were differentiated by Tier number, or a -ra,-ga etc. It worked, and I don't see the reason for a change.

So now, instead of a progressively more impressive animation for a elemental line, we'll get one spell that'll we cast from day one? Fun.



I am playing FFII at the moment and what they are introducing in terms of spell power is somewhat like this.

Although I prefer the FFII job system over what XIV is becoming. It's too bad they abandoned the armory, which was/is the coolest part of the game because people complained that classes weren't cookie cutter enough.

I think the only real flaw of the armory is it didn't go far enough. They should have made it more like a combination of FFII and tactics - no classes at all (for people to complain about) and proficiency requirements on weapons (with weapons teaching special abilities) - same with spells - you buy a spell, and as your "elemental magic" skill goes up you can unlock higher tier spells but spell power (like the power of your sword) is determined by how often you use the specific spell.

Do you nuke with Thunder constantly? Your thunder spell level will be higher. You would also gain thunder affinity points, which would reduce the damage you take from thunder based abilities and would also make thunder based weapon skills stronger.

HP and MP could also increase as you play, just like they do in FFII. I dunno, I see games like Skyrim where how you build your character is totally up to you and your preferences and the time you put in, and people love it. Why bother getting all twisted about jobs? Not every FF has jobs, so XIV didn't need to either.

Heck they could have still had artifact armor as well and special abilities that you learn from it that helps define your role. Want Paladin Plate mail? Well in order to start the quest you need level 25 sword, 1000 HP 500 MP, Cure 7, 50 VIT and 50 Spirit

Then wearing each piece would unlock skills like Cover, Rampart, shield bash, etc.

This type of system would have encouraged players of all "levels" to play together too - since when you started on a new weapon you would be back to hacking up marmots (and if you tried to shortcut it by blasting them with Thunder V you wouldn't get dagger skill ups)


Instead we get the same old same old boring cookie cutter mmo.

Its so sad watching XIV become more and more lame. So much wasted potential.



Edited, Nov 16th 2011 9:52am by Olorinus


Great post, good ideas, well thought out arguments but you seriously ended on a bad note. FFXIV is anything but "cookie cutter" and "...watching XIV become more and more lame" is a strong indicator that you either haven't logged in, or haven't bothered actually playing the game in quite some time. Making XIV a quality game is a lot like turning lumps of giraffe dung into a piece of art (MythBusters - End With a Bang). The quality of game play and functionality has come a long ways, hardly "wasted potential" or "more lame" as you ineloquently put it.



You have to see it from the point of view of somebody who is outside the game, FFXIV has no uniqueness outside it's armory system(Wich is not even that great atm.) The game is very cookie cutter when it comes to content and systems implemented, there is not one thing in this game, that is any different that any other MMO out there, now when you take a look from where the game was, to where it is right now, sure it has improved, but the game was an utter piece of garbage, anything would have been an improvement


Maybe I'm missing something here. You say XIV has no "uniqueness" yet I see no other game with a crafting, gathering or armoury system close to it. You say "the game is very cookie cutter" yet you leave me wondering what exactly you define as such, is it the fact that it is computer based? Perhaps if we had a game where we all camped out in parks and lived our desired adventures instead of playing computerized... oh, no wait, OWS (Occupy Wall Street) beat us to that game, so it would be cookie cutter as well. Combat, story, mobs, landscape, transportation, etc... what do you see as "cookie cutter?"

I look at these comments from the perspective of someone inside the game, someone participating in the Dev discussions, feedback forums and community boards like this one. The perspective of a critic who has not played the game, or is not playing the game is like being willing to accept a Ford Motors driver's opinion of the latest Dodge truck when they have never gotten in and tested it themselves. Making your decisions and trying to contribute to community discussions means that you have to be willing participate in the community, not merely regurgitate other peoples opinions.


Edited, Nov 16th 2011 6:13pm by Dyrwydi



The crafting system of FFXIV is pretty much the same as EQ-EQ2, they just made it 100x harder by adding a million required materials to make a R6 armor/weapon, that is not unique that is taking something that works, and making it harder, just for the sake of saying "Look this is unique", the gathering system is the same as in any other MMO, you look at a node, you click on it, and you gather(In here we have a dumb mini game for the sake of timesink but meh) and the armory system is not unique either, rift has something very similar but it works :)

The perspective of those who dont play, is what SE should be interested on, the people who play and have been playing would have been happy with how the game was at release, they would not care if the game improved or not, now those that after all the updates and upgrades are not coming back is the feedback that you want, why are they not coming back ?
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#68 Nov 18 2011 at 6:28 AM Rating: Good
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KaneKitty wrote:
UltKnightGrover wrote:
It's hard to make content for a game when everyone has every ability and is essentially the same person with a different weapon.

The problem with the free-for-all armoury system is that it's very hard to make a strategic game with that method, unless you limited the size of the party to less people in order to make it challenging even for people who have every ability.


That's true: you either make it so that players need tons of abilities, and thereby isolate all but those who level many classes; or make it so that you don't really even need other abilities, in which case anyone who levels more than a couple classes will get bored with the ease of it all (and you'll have a hard time convincing many people to bother getting abilities).


I agree.

I think it is safe to say that Tanaka built the Armoury system in FFXIV for casual players that don’t have time to play the game and often play alone. Without attempting to start a war, Tanaka did develop a decent way of making it so that a person could effectively solo by having access to nearly every ability (That is as far as my praise goes). As we all know the reality is that even with all of the changes Yoshi has made the system seems cumbersome to use and doesn’t create any class uniqueness. I’ve always felt that the Armoury system was lacking because it doesn’t require your party to adapt to different situations by using the abilities and traits that are now being removed by Yoshi-P. Tanaka assumed that players would use the traits available to slightly modify your character into the role you wanted but never really developed the need for players to do so.

Yes, part of the problem lies in the difficulty of enemies. Monsters are still too easy to kill and parties never felt like they needed a designated tank or healer. Nobody needed to use/equip all the abilities and traits a Gladiator or Maurader had available. My fear is that even the introduction of jobs isn’t really going to fix the problem. Maybe reducing the number of abilities available, as Yoshi-P plans will help but I have my doubts. I still don’t see what is going to drive players to use jobs over classes? Sure there will be some unique gear but essentially if we don’t need jobs and classes are still available why will I choose one over the other? I sincerely hope the jobs help fix the problem but I don’t see how there is really a need for them.

In FFXI without a good tank you wouldn’t dream of partying (there were exceptions). In FFXIV, nothing makes you feel like you need a DD, Mage or Tank.
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#69 Nov 18 2011 at 8:00 AM Rating: Decent
Ostia wrote:
Professor Dyrwydi wrote:
Ostia wrote:

Professor Dyrwydi wrote:
Olorinus wrote:
ScorpionEx wrote:
Ugh, why are they changing the tier system, that has been a trade mark of Final Fantasy since the early years. Whether they were differentiated by Tier number, or a -ra,-ga etc. It worked, and I don't see the reason for a change.

So now, instead of a progressively more impressive animation for a elemental line, we'll get one spell that'll we cast from day one? Fun.



I am playing FFII at the moment and what they are introducing in terms of spell power is somewhat like this.

Although I prefer the FFII job system over what XIV is becoming. It's too bad they abandoned the armory, which was/is the coolest part of the game because people complained that classes weren't cookie cutter enough.

I think the only real flaw of the armory is it didn't go far enough. They should have made it more like a combination of FFII and tactics - no classes at all (for people to complain about) and proficiency requirements on weapons (with weapons teaching special abilities) - same with spells - you buy a spell, and as your "elemental magic" skill goes up you can unlock higher tier spells but spell power (like the power of your sword) is determined by how often you use the specific spell.

Do you nuke with Thunder constantly? Your thunder spell level will be higher. You would also gain thunder affinity points, which would reduce the damage you take from thunder based abilities and would also make thunder based weapon skills stronger.

HP and MP could also increase as you play, just like they do in FFII. I dunno, I see games like Skyrim where how you build your character is totally up to you and your preferences and the time you put in, and people love it. Why bother getting all twisted about jobs? Not every FF has jobs, so XIV didn't need to either.

Heck they could have still had artifact armor as well and special abilities that you learn from it that helps define your role. Want Paladin Plate mail? Well in order to start the quest you need level 25 sword, 1000 HP 500 MP, Cure 7, 50 VIT and 50 Spirit

Then wearing each piece would unlock skills like Cover, Rampart, shield bash, etc.

This type of system would have encouraged players of all "levels" to play together too - since when you started on a new weapon you would be back to hacking up marmots (and if you tried to shortcut it by blasting them with Thunder V you wouldn't get dagger skill ups)


Instead we get the same old same old boring cookie cutter mmo.

Its so sad watching XIV become more and more lame. So much wasted potential.



Edited, Nov 16th 2011 9:52am by Olorinus


Great post, good ideas, well thought out arguments but you seriously ended on a bad note. FFXIV is anything but "cookie cutter" and "...watching XIV become more and more lame" is a strong indicator that you either haven't logged in, or haven't bothered actually playing the game in quite some time. Making XIV a quality game is a lot like turning lumps of giraffe dung into a piece of art (MythBusters - End With a Bang). The quality of game play and functionality has come a long ways, hardly "wasted potential" or "more lame" as you ineloquently put it.



You have to see it from the point of view of somebody who is outside the game, FFXIV has no uniqueness outside it's armory system(Wich is not even that great atm.) The game is very cookie cutter when it comes to content and systems implemented, there is not one thing in this game, that is any different that any other MMO out there, now when you take a look from where the game was, to where it is right now, sure it has improved, but the game was an utter piece of garbage, anything would have been an improvement


Maybe I'm missing something here. You say XIV has no "uniqueness" yet I see no other game with a crafting, gathering or armoury system close to it. You say "the game is very cookie cutter" yet you leave me wondering what exactly you define as such, is it the fact that it is computer based? Perhaps if we had a game where we all camped out in parks and lived our desired adventures instead of playing computerized... oh, no wait, OWS (Occupy Wall Street) beat us to that game, so it would be cookie cutter as well. Combat, story, mobs, landscape, transportation, etc... what do you see as "cookie cutter?"

I look at these comments from the perspective of someone inside the game, someone participating in the Dev discussions, feedback forums and community boards like this one. The perspective of a critic who has not played the game, or is not playing the game is like being willing to accept a Ford Motors driver's opinion of the latest Dodge truck when they have never gotten in and tested it themselves. Making your decisions and trying to contribute to community discussions means that you have to be willing participate in the community, not merely regurgitate other peoples opinions.


Edited, Nov 16th 2011 6:13pm by Dyrwydi



The crafting system of FFXIV is pretty much the same as EQ-EQ2, they just made it 100x harder by adding a million required materials to make a R6 armor/weapon, that is not unique that is taking something that works, and making it harder, just for the sake of saying "Look this is unique", the gathering system is the same as in any other MMO, you look at a node, you click on it, and you gather(In here we have a dumb mini game for the sake of timesink but meh) and the armory system is not unique either, rift has something very similar but it works :)

The perspective of those who dont play, is what SE should be interested on, the people who play and have been playing would have been happy with how the game was at release, they would not care if the game improved or not, now those that after all the updates and upgrades are not coming back is the feedback that you want, why are they not coming back ?


By your definition then any game with crafting is therefore cookie cutter because other games have crafting - the system in EQ/EQ2 is nothing like that of FFXIV, other than the fact that it involves taking items and making better items out of them. It is more closely aligned with SE's other MMO, FFXI. Gathering is unlike any other game in that there are gathering related skills and traits associated which a stand-alone class - your description indicates that you have no idea how this system works. The armoury system does bare certain resemblance to that of Rift, except you arent' stuck with a limited number of "specializations" within your class, you instead have full access to all skills and abilities from ALL classes (changes pending to further refine this system), regardless, SE's IP did this first as well, in FFXI - again, nothing cookie cutter here.

Your comment "the people who play and have been playing would have been happy with how the game was at release" indicates that you post blindly, never reading the comments of other posters. No one, not a single person has been happy with how the game was at release. Period, end of discussion. SE is focused not on out-side feedback right now, SE if focusing on feedback of those playing the game to help them refine the current systems before the big re-release next year (v2.0) where they will be looking to bring back those who have left as well as new players.

Posting blindly is not contributing to the discussion, it is trolling, and while I may have few, if any, fans on this board I am fairly sure that your comments, and those like it, are considered laughable by more than just me. If I'm off base, then someone please correct me.
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#70 Nov 18 2011 at 12:26 PM Rating: Decent
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9,526 posts
In FFII my Maria character punches stuff (hits harder than any other character) and is my main offensive magic user. My dual axe wielding character "Guy" is my best healer. I love it. I guess some people just can't live without things being absolute cookie cutter.

The difference is, I don't give a **** if I can't tell who the tank is - or if the mage also punches things. For the most part XI has gone that route too, where only very specific battles need a tank - and guess what - tons of jobs can tank most reasonably hard fights (MNK, NIN, DNC, lolPLD, BST, WAR, DRK, THF, BLU, SAM) as long as you have a whm. (unfortunately they have made it so only WHM can cure most things, which I think sucks, but whatever)

It is actually a great way to do things, so you don't have the problem "well there is no tank seeking so we all can sit here for three more hours waiting to play or just give up now and go do some repetitive craft grinding instead."

It is a preference. Believe it or not, not everyone gives a **** if you can look at the party and immediately tell what players' cookie cutter role is.

I know people cry about "class uniqueness" all the time when it comes to XIV but my personal belief is the reason for that is because the whole **** game is so frigging bland and the class system was done so poorly (lacklustre abilities that are boring boring boring) that people are desperately clinging to what they know in the stubborn belief that what is wrong with the game was it just wasn't cookie cutter enough.

What is wrong with the game is it was poorly made, poorly designed, boring, contentless, and only "innovative" where it breaks things.



Edited, Nov 18th 2011 10:29am by Olorinus
____________________________
lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#71 Nov 18 2011 at 2:01 PM Rating: Decent
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Olorinus wrote:

The difference is, I don't give a **** if I can't tell who the tank is - or if the mage also punches things. For the most part XI has gone that route too, where only very specific battles need a tank - and guess what - tons of jobs can tank most reasonably hard fights (MNK, NIN, DNC, lolPLD, BST, WAR, DRK, THF, BLU, SAM) as long as you have a whm. (unfortunately they have made it so only WHM can cure most things, which I think sucks, but whatever)


What are you smoking?? In FFXI Whm, Rdm, Sch could all main heal and do quite well at that. As for your list of tank's each one is a situational tank some in one area, some in other. Before XI was broken role's were chosen as follows:
Depending on situation tank is chosen,
Depending on who's tanking a healer is chosen,
Depending on situation melee/mages are chosen,
Depending on melee/mages support is chosen,
exe...

As for XIV i would love more defined roles, a DoM should not be punching things, a DoW(melee) should not be able to out heal a DoM(heals), DoW(tank) should not out DPS DoW(melee), and so on....

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#72 Nov 18 2011 at 2:01 PM Rating: Decent
Olorinus wrote:
In FFII my Maria character punches stuff (hits harder than any other character) and is my main offensive magic user. My dual axe wielding character "Guy" is my best healer. I love it. I guess some people just can't live without things being absolute cookie cutter.

The difference is, I don't give a **** if I can't tell who the tank is - or if the mage also punches things. For the most part XI has gone that route too, where only very specific battles need a tank - and guess what - tons of jobs can tank most reasonably hard fights (MNK, NIN, DNC, lolPLD, BST, WAR, DRK, THF, BLU, SAM) as long as you have a whm. (unfortunately they have made it so only WHM can cure most things, which I think sucks, but whatever)

It is actually a great way to do things, so you don't have the problem "well there is no tank seeking so we all can sit here for three more hours waiting to play or just give up now and go do some repetitive craft grinding instead."

It is a preference. Believe it or not, not everyone gives a **** if you can look at the party and immediately tell what players' cookie cutter role is.

I know people cry about "class uniqueness" all the time when it comes to XIV but my personal belief is the reason for that is because the whole **** game is so frigging bland and the class system was done so poorly (lacklustre abilities that are boring boring boring) that people are desperately clinging to what they know in the stubborn belief that what is wrong with the game was it just wasn't cookie cutter enough.

What is wrong with the game is it was poorly made, poorly designed, boring, contentless, and only "innovative" where it breaks things.



Edited, Nov 18th 2011 10:29am by Olorinus


Agreed, the class design is very bland and there is a lack of content... I believe this has been brought up and discussed time and time again, mostly in the "Complaints Department" thread where users are supposed to "Lodge all your rants/complaints..." Please stop trying to derail a conversation on the upcoming changes by pointing to what you didn't like about the game back when it first came out.
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#73 Nov 18 2011 at 4:56 PM Rating: Good
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Well I was actually talking about how I don't like the move to more cookie cutter MMO style that these changes represent - but thanks for coming out.
____________________________
lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#74 Nov 18 2011 at 4:57 PM Rating: Decent
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9,526 posts
TwiddleDee wrote:
DoM should not be punching things, a DoW(melee) should not be able to out heal a DoM(heals), DoW(tank) should not out DPS DoW(melee), and so on....



These are opinions and preferences. I'm glad that XIV is going to conform to what YOU want in a game, but not everyone wants the same things.
____________________________
lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#75 Nov 18 2011 at 8:24 PM Rating: Decent
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174 posts
TwiddleDee wrote:
Olorinus wrote:

The difference is, I don't give a **** if I can't tell who the tank is - or if the mage also punches things. For the most part XI has gone that route too, where only very specific battles need a tank - and guess what - tons of jobs can tank most reasonably hard fights (MNK, NIN, DNC, lolPLD, BST, WAR, DRK, THF, BLU, SAM) as long as you have a whm. (unfortunately they have made it so only WHM can cure most things, which I think sucks, but whatever)


What are you smoking?? In FFXI Whm, Rdm, Sch could all main heal and do quite well at that. As for your list of tank's each one is a situational tank some in one area, some in other. Before XI was broken role's were chosen as follows:
Depending on situation tank is chosen,
Depending on who's tanking a healer is chosen,
Depending on situation melee/mages are chosen,
Depending on melee/mages support is chosen,
exe...

As for XIV i would love more defined roles, a DoM should not be punching things, a DoW(melee) should not be able to out heal a DoM(heals), DoW(tank) should not out DPS DoW(melee), and so on....




I think that is the point the OP is making though - abyssea broke XI and these days only WHM cures most fights. RDM is outhealed by Blue - pleniluen embrace and white wind make RDM look gimp - so so broken.

RDM badly needs Cure V now to even stay remotely competitive.
____________________________


#76 Nov 20 2011 at 8:08 AM Rating: Decent
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2,202 posts
Professor Dyrwydi wrote:
Ostia wrote:
Professor Dyrwydi wrote:
Ostia wrote:

Professor Dyrwydi wrote:
Olorinus wrote:
ScorpionEx wrote:
Ugh, why are they changing the tier system, that has been a trade mark of Final Fantasy since the early years. Whether they were differentiated by Tier number, or a -ra,-ga etc. It worked, and I don't see the reason for a change.

So now, instead of a progressively more impressive animation for a elemental line, we'll get one spell that'll we cast from day one? Fun.



I am playing FFII at the moment and what they are introducing in terms of spell power is somewhat like this.

Although I prefer the FFII job system over what XIV is becoming. It's too bad they abandoned the armory, which was/is the coolest part of the game because people complained that classes weren't cookie cutter enough.

I think the only real flaw of the armory is it didn't go far enough. They should have made it more like a combination of FFII and tactics - no classes at all (for people to complain about) and proficiency requirements on weapons (with weapons teaching special abilities) - same with spells - you buy a spell, and as your "elemental magic" skill goes up you can unlock higher tier spells but spell power (like the power of your sword) is determined by how often you use the specific spell.

Do you nuke with Thunder constantly? Your thunder spell level will be higher. You would also gain thunder affinity points, which would reduce the damage you take from thunder based abilities and would also make thunder based weapon skills stronger.

HP and MP could also increase as you play, just like they do in FFII. I dunno, I see games like Skyrim where how you build your character is totally up to you and your preferences and the time you put in, and people love it. Why bother getting all twisted about jobs? Not every FF has jobs, so XIV didn't need to either.

Heck they could have still had artifact armor as well and special abilities that you learn from it that helps define your role. Want Paladin Plate mail? Well in order to start the quest you need level 25 sword, 1000 HP 500 MP, Cure 7, 50 VIT and 50 Spirit

Then wearing each piece would unlock skills like Cover, Rampart, shield bash, etc.

This type of system would have encouraged players of all "levels" to play together too - since when you started on a new weapon you would be back to hacking up marmots (and if you tried to shortcut it by blasting them with Thunder V you wouldn't get dagger skill ups)


Instead we get the same old same old boring cookie cutter mmo.

Its so sad watching XIV become more and more lame. So much wasted potential.



Edited, Nov 16th 2011 9:52am by Olorinus


Great post, good ideas, well thought out arguments but you seriously ended on a bad note. FFXIV is anything but "cookie cutter" and "...watching XIV become more and more lame" is a strong indicator that you either haven't logged in, or haven't bothered actually playing the game in quite some time. Making XIV a quality game is a lot like turning lumps of giraffe dung into a piece of art (MythBusters - End With a Bang). The quality of game play and functionality has come a long ways, hardly "wasted potential" or "more lame" as you ineloquently put it.



You have to see it from the point of view of somebody who is outside the game, FFXIV has no uniqueness outside it's armory system(Wich is not even that great atm.) The game is very cookie cutter when it comes to content and systems implemented, there is not one thing in this game, that is any different that any other MMO out there, now when you take a look from where the game was, to where it is right now, sure it has improved, but the game was an utter piece of garbage, anything would have been an improvement


Maybe I'm missing something here. You say XIV has no "uniqueness" yet I see no other game with a crafting, gathering or armoury system close to it. You say "the game is very cookie cutter" yet you leave me wondering what exactly you define as such, is it the fact that it is computer based? Perhaps if we had a game where we all camped out in parks and lived our desired adventures instead of playing computerized... oh, no wait, OWS (Occupy Wall Street) beat us to that game, so it would be cookie cutter as well. Combat, story, mobs, landscape, transportation, etc... what do you see as "cookie cutter?"

I look at these comments from the perspective of someone inside the game, someone participating in the Dev discussions, feedback forums and community boards like this one. The perspective of a critic who has not played the game, or is not playing the game is like being willing to accept a Ford Motors driver's opinion of the latest Dodge truck when they have never gotten in and tested it themselves. Making your decisions and trying to contribute to community discussions means that you have to be willing participate in the community, not merely regurgitate other peoples opinions.


Edited, Nov 16th 2011 6:13pm by Dyrwydi



The crafting system of FFXIV is pretty much the same as EQ-EQ2, they just made it 100x harder by adding a million required materials to make a R6 armor/weapon, that is not unique that is taking something that works, and making it harder, just for the sake of saying "Look this is unique", the gathering system is the same as in any other MMO, you look at a node, you click on it, and you gather(In here we have a dumb mini game for the sake of timesink but meh) and the armory system is not unique either, rift has something very similar but it works :)

The perspective of those who dont play, is what SE should be interested on, the people who play and have been playing would have been happy with how the game was at release, they would not care if the game improved or not, now those that after all the updates and upgrades are not coming back is the feedback that you want, why are they not coming back ?


By your definition then any game with crafting is therefore cookie cutter because other games have crafting - the system in EQ/EQ2 is nothing like that of FFXIV, other than the fact that it involves taking items and making better items out of them. It is more closely aligned with SE's other MMO, FFXI. Gathering is unlike any other game in that there are gathering related skills and traits associated which a stand-alone class - your description indicates that you have no idea how this system works. The armoury system does bare certain resemblance to that of Rift, except you arent' stuck with a limited number of "specializations" within your class, you instead have full access to all skills and abilities from ALL classes (changes pending to further refine this system), regardless, SE's IP did this first as well, in FFXI - again, nothing cookie cutter here.

Your comment "the people who play and have been playing would have been happy with how the game was at release" indicates that you post blindly, never reading the comments of other posters. No one, not a single person has been happy with how the game was at release. Period, end of discussion. SE is focused not on out-side feedback right now, SE if focusing on feedback of those playing the game to help them refine the current systems before the big re-release next year (v2.0) where they will be looking to bring back those who have left as well as new players.

Posting blindly is not contributing to the discussion, it is trolling, and while I may have few, if any, fans on this board I am fairly sure that your comments, and those like it, are considered laughable by more than just me. If I'm off base, then someone please correct me.


The craft system is hugely similar to that of EQ2, you chose items, there is a mini game to fill a bar and progress before time runs out, and depending on success you get an item, or even better a high quality one, as for gathering is the same thing as every other game, you see a node, you click it, only in this one you have a tiresome mini game, now tell what is so ground breaking about it ? nothing, is boring and it will probably go once 2.0 hits or it will be hugely simplified.

As for "Not a single person has been happy how the game was at release" please are you new around here or any board regarding FFXIV ? From the moment this game was release and even before, white knights where lining up to defend it, ON EVERY LEVEL!! Like it was the jesus of MMO'S, that is a fact, **** read this forums, there are people who are very vocal about the changes and that in their OP the game was good as it was at release, that is a fact, even more so, SE was happy with the game when they released it, they charged $80 for it, weather it was stupid of them or not, the fact is the game went live, wish means in their mind it was release worthy.

And if SE is focused on getting feed back from the people who currently play, then may god help them, because SE is incapable of understanding the MMO market, they have no idea, no grasp on what direction they should or want their game to go, they are stuck on the stupid idea, that they can market the ideas of an 1998 MMO with the graphics of a FF title, and they failed last year, so next year they will double down, prettier graphics, with mostly the same outdated ideas of the MMO'S of old, just look at the game right now, an entire year later and some months, still no AH, still no LFG system, still no end game content, still horrible looting mechanic, still 99% of the content is tank & spank, still no really worthy content to even call challenging, still no HNM, still only 2 dungeons, still only one real boss fight(Ifrit), still a horrible UI, lag, etc etc. The game has changed dont get me wrong, sure it has improved, but at a horrible pace. Wish one of those implies that SE has their finger in ther MMO market ?

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#77 Nov 22 2011 at 1:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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7,106 posts
Quote:
Your comment "the people who play and have been playing would have been happy with how the game was at release" indicates that you post blindly, never reading the comments of other posters. No one, not a single person has been happy with how the game was at release. Period, end of discussion. SE is focused not on out-side feedback right now, SE is focusing on feedback of those playing the game.

SE doesn't care if you're happy when you're playing; they only care if you're playing.

Obviously player retention is important to SE, but the simple fact is that many of the people playing two months after launch were going to keep playing regardless of what happened to the game after that. Those simply weren't the players that SE was most concerned about.

Right now, SE has a small-but-dedicated subscriber base of people willing to pay for a game that is less polished and has meaningfully less content than other games out there. What's keeping those players playing is not the quality of the game. So, when SE improves the quality of the game, those aren't the players SE is most concerned about.

The game isn't sustainable with its current user base. For the game to be even a moderate success, the user base will need to expand dramatically, many times over its current subscription levels (and also over initial purchase levels). That means that the new players need to significantly outnumber current and former players. And, that means that the current players aren't the majority of the market that SE is going to be changing the game for. SE is making a game for the people who aren't playing yet, not for the people who have played before.

tl;dr The happiness of the people playing now isn't a big deal to SE. Current and former players aren't the ones who will make or break the game.
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