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Class Reforms & Action Lists (11/18/2011)Follow

#102 Nov 23 2011 at 3:38 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'm sorry if you misunderstood my implication. That metaphor wasn't meant to say that our options have been limited by this change. Honestly, if anything, I think our options have been expanded. The individuality of each class has been accentuated while leaving a lot of freedom to move around within and outside of those classes. What I was trying to imply was that the Dev team is limiting their options. The fact that they are limiting their own options with this change is not an opinion, but fact (now before someone explodes I should couch that by saying that merely by changing the system down the road they have loosed themselves from these restriction, so it is by no means permanent).

The blanket statement "Every class will have 15 abilities and 10 traits" is an artificial restriction that simplifies their task in the sort term, but restricts their choices later down the road. Although the choice that I fear most about is the fact that all Class abilities are automatically added and cannot be removed. That means without change, they cannot add more than 5 abilities down the road (15 + 10 + [5]). Now obviously, they could change it at any point by making it so you can remove abilities, or add more action bars. But that is, in a way, my point. The restrictions they have placed on themselves will force them to make changes to the system later. It's not at all flexible.

Players still have plenty of flexibility, but the dev team has left little for themselves.
#103 Nov 23 2011 at 3:49 PM Rating: Default
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At this point, i can't really comment much.. Except say "i can't comment much".

There's too many questions half answered, too much info no yet explained, and enough energy spent on speculation to power a city for a year...
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#104 Nov 23 2011 at 4:25 PM Rating: Decent
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I just thought I would add this note I saw on official forums:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/31246-Quick-Analysis-Mage-changes-and-Final-Fantasy-Tradition.

Well thought out, and might make people a little less ****-hurt over mage updates.

Quote:
Quick Analysis: Mage changes and Final Fantasy Tradition.

Hello, and welcome!

This thread has been made to address some of the posts about "how the mage changes are doing away with Final Fantasy Tradition", and it's not meant to address other issues such as the obvious lack of offensive water or debuff spells. So, here we go!

Oh, just one thing. For whatever reason, my spell checker is all fuzzy and I'm sorta busy to check everything. Expect typos, sorry for that.


1 - Black Mages without access to all elements? HERESY!

Nope, that's tradition. Black Mages rarely had access to all basic elements in the series. In fact, I believe only in Final Fantasy XI and XII the Black Mage's repertoire includes all elements. Can be wrong on that, tho.

Anyways, do you know what are the traditional elements Black Mages have access to?

Fire
Lightning
Ice

Please take a look at the proposed THM / BLM skillset. What elements do you see there?

Fire. Lightning. Ice.

Also, did you know that these three elements were the ONLY that had (a) (aga) tiered levels originally?

On the other hand, Wind, Earth and Water are more commonly available as 1-2 spells that are either Blue Magic (Water Breath, Twister, etc), basic (Aero in III, Water in IX, for example), top tier (Quake in most of it's appearances) or enemy only spells (Waterga in IX). Some games do deviate from this, but that's not the norm.

-MythBusted.

2 - What's wind doing on my white mage?

Final Fantasy III was the first game in the series to give players access to a wind elemental offensive spell. Aero is a level 2 white magic while tornado is level 8.

This one is a bit more debatable, but still has it's roots on the series.

-MythBusted.

3 - No Offensive Water spells.

Like I've mentioned previously, Water has almost always been a hard to use element. Often, Water spells are Blue Magic, Summon Magic or a single, very specific Black magic. We don't have a Blue Mage or a Summoner yet, so while it does sucks to not be able to exploit water weakness currently, this is not new to the series.

-MythBusted.

Things that did change. But do remember: Reinventing itself is also a Final Fantasy tradition!

1 - Lack of debuff spells

This is a point where everyone complaining is right. Black Mages hardly, if ever, are debuff heavy, however they always do have access to few, specific debuffs such as poison or frog. White mages too, often use Mini or Confuse.

This has been kept somewhat via the Sleep spell, but still deviates from the norm. Likely, we will have a new debuff specific class, and indeed most FF games with a debuff class remove almost all debuffs from Black Mage (example: Final Fantasy Tactics), but never to the point FFXIV did.

2 - Offensive Earth spell for White Mages.

This is new. As in, completely new, no precedent. Closest we get to it is......well, nothing.


So, this is it. Feel free to correct me!

We can now proceed to argue with each other like always. j/k
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#105 Nov 23 2011 at 4:27 PM Rating: Good
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Good point Hulan, if it is actually a limit they set in the system it will be bad, and it is at least poor choice of words if not.

Just thinking about future level cap raises etc. Would be boring without any new abilities to complement it.
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#106 Nov 23 2011 at 4:32 PM Rating: Excellent
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Elionara wrote:
I just thought I would add this note I saw on official forums:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/31246-Quick-Analysis-Mage-changes-and-Final-Fantasy-Tradition.

Well thought out, and might make people a little less ****-hurt over mage updates.

I'm almost positive you weren't talking about me with this, but my last few posts have been somewhat negative, so I would like to take this chance to make it clear. I really do like these changes. In my eyes, we've gone from a Minivan to a Sedan, still not a Ferrari perhaps, but getting there. My only worry is that I can see a cliff in the distance, and I'm starting to sweat whether the driver sees it too. They probably do, but that doesn't make me any less uncomfortable about the existence of the cliff itself.
#107 Nov 23 2011 at 4:45 PM Rating: Default
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Hulan wrote:
Elionara wrote:
I just thought I would add this note I saw on official forums:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/31246-Quick-Analysis-Mage-changes-and-Final-Fantasy-Tradition.

Well thought out, and might make people a little less ****-hurt over mage updates.

I'm almost positive you weren't talking about me with this, but my last few posts have been somewhat negative, so I would like to take this chance to make it clear. I really do like these changes. In my eyes, we've gone from a Minivan to a Sedan, still not a Ferrari perhaps, but getting there. My only worry is that I can see a cliff in the distance, and I'm starting to sweat whether the driver sees it too. They probably do, but that doesn't make me any less uncomfortable about the existence of the cliff itself.


I honestly haven't looked at the last few posts so nope, not you :) Mostly just anyone I know that see's this who's been whining to me that now XIV isn't going to be like XI.

To which I said, stop playing now. lol

Edit:

I also just quickly scanned this entire posts pages and while no one is saying anything about mages, I still welcome this change. Final Fantasy isn't about keeping things the same as the last one imho :)

Edited, Nov 23rd 2011 2:48pm by Elionara
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http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/story.html?story=18309
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Like Final Fantasy XI, the game specs will be extremely high for the time, but in about 5 years, an average machine can run it on max settings with little to no issues. Tanaka also expressed interest in making a benchmark program available.

FilthMcNasty wrote:
I endorse this thread.
#108 Nov 23 2011 at 4:55 PM Rating: Good
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It's not about it "being like XI" it is about it not sucking... There are a lot of things the devs could do to make the game "not like XI" without restricting mages to 5 spells at LEVEL CAP
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#109 Nov 23 2011 at 5:24 PM Rating: Decent
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Olorinus wrote:
It's not about it "being like XI" it is about it not sucking... There are a lot of things the devs could do to make the game "not like XI" without restricting mages to 5 spells at LEVEL CAP


Do you need the WoW skill variety of having 60 skills, and using only 10 to feel less restricted?
Whats the difference between having a cure I,II,III when you can have cure that scale's with level? level sync?
How do you know more skills aren't in the pipes?
How do you know what skills the next set of classes/jobs will bring?
.
.
.
.
There's a 100 questions i can ask that none of us can really answer, so wait and see.


Edited, Nov 23rd 2011 6:25pm by TwiddleDee
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#110 Nov 24 2011 at 4:31 AM Rating: Excellent
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TwiddleDee wrote:

Whats the difference between having a cure I,II,III when you can have cure that scale's


Have you ever played WHM? If you're trying to heal efficiently, it is good to have different heals so you can keep people topped up, cycle on recast cool down, and maximize the amount of HP healed per MP used.

Also, I'd just like to point out if you're the type of person who is too cool to enfeeble - that's cool - but just so you know, no one is making you use more than five spells now - but if they take all the spells away, those of us who actually like to push our classes to the limit won't have the choice to use all those spells anymore.

So whether you think 30 spells are needed or not is a moot point. If there are 30 spells and you only want to use 5 and I want to use all 30, we can both be happy. If there are 5 spells, I'm forced to play the way you play. I don't see that as fair or reasonable.
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When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#111 Nov 24 2011 at 4:35 AM Rating: Decent
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TwiddleDee wrote:

There's a 100 questions i can ask that none of us can really answer, so wait and see.


/facepalm now you're just making excuses. They put out their vision for classes. I for one am not going to pretend it was "just for fun" or something and not criticize it for the peice of crap it is.

I don't care how many unanswered questions there are - as it stands it looks like they have finally completely f#cked mages. First the mp changes and thm nerf - now this. I am not going to "wait and see" - I already see the direction this is headed in.
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#112 Nov 24 2011 at 8:43 AM Rating: Good
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Has anyone noticed the lack of debuffs?

Also look at this..
Quote:
Deals earth damage to the target. Chance to reduce evasion against earth magic.

Really? So all I have to do is spam stone since using it makes it easier to land if it procs?

Quote:
Deals ice damage to all enemies within range. Chance to inflict Bind.

More streamlining...I'm not only inflicting damage, I am also binding them.

This leaves a terrible impression on me. We will always want to exploit elemental weakness, therefore I can conclude that we will be only using one spell.

Am I missing something? Please let me know.
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#113 Nov 24 2011 at 9:13 AM Rating: Default
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Olorinus wrote:

Have you ever played WHM? If you're trying to heal efficiently, it is good to have different heals so you can keep people topped up, cycle on recast cool down, and maximize the amount of HP healed per MP used.

Also, I'd just like to point out if you're the type of person who is too cool to enfeeble - that's cool - but just so you know, no one is making you use more than five spells now - but if they take all the spells away, those of us who actually like to push our classes to the limit won't have the choice to use all those spells anymore.

So whether you think 30 spells are needed or not is a moot point. If there are 30 spells and you only want to use 5 and I want to use all 30, we can both be happy. If there are 5 spells, I'm forced to play the way you play. I don't see that as fair or reasonable.


Yes i have played healer in many games not only XI and XIV, and what i can say is the healing option's are fine until future skills are introduced. Actually enfeebling is something i do, do as i heal and as strange as it feels for it to be taken out I'll simply have to work around it and move on. Here's were am 50/50 i do use nearly all skills i equip on my bars, and i am both worried and intrigued about SE's choice to the skill removal. If the skills at hand can cover the bases of the skills removed no big loss. If they can't it'll be a different story in it's self.

Olorinus wrote:

I already see the direction this is headed in.


Please share your vision, i am quite interested to hear about the direction you see the game is going. As the direction i personally see seems to be a lot brighter then what you are hinting at.


Edited, Nov 24th 2011 10:26am by TwiddleDee
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#114 Nov 24 2011 at 11:35 AM Rating: Decent
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lambon wrote:
Has anyone noticed the lack of debuffs?

Also look at this..
Quote:
Deals earth damage to the target. Chance to reduce evasion against earth magic.

Really? So all I have to do is spam stone since using it makes it easier to land if it procs?


yeah it looks real fun. And Twiddle - I was talking about the direction jobs and classes and abilities are going in - not the game as a whole.

Although I think the term "semi-brain-dead-simplicity" may apply to all aspects of where the game is headed at this point.
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#115 Nov 24 2011 at 7:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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Elionara wrote:


It's a fine post, but at the same time the poster defends half of what FFXIV does by pointing to the decisions made in older FF games, and the other half by pointing out that "Reinventing itself is also a Final Fantasy tradition!" It's hard to allow both of those points coexist in the same argument, though; the latter undoes the former.
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#116 Nov 25 2011 at 1:36 AM Rating: Excellent
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lambon wrote:
Quote:
Deals earth damage to the target. Chance to reduce evasion against earth magic.

Really? So all I have to do is spam stone since using it makes it easier to land if it procs?
Unless they're trying to get people to stick to one element while putting in a ramp up mechanic, there's little point to something like that, unless their attempt to simplify things is more an admittal to the plethora of spells in Final Fantasy, which wouldn't exactly go well with the controller crowd once the PS3 version hits.

I mean, can you imagine what things would look like with a Black Mage that has access to six elements and all six elements having to have ramp up mechanics and individual procs per element?
Quote:
Quote:
Deals ice damage to all enemies within range. Chance to inflict Bind.

More streamlining...I'm not only inflicting damage, I am also binding them.
I'll agree that it's a bad idea, but only because something like Bind should definitely be its own spell.

I kinda get where they're trying to go, but you need a lot more to flesh out how magic plays. A general character-specific debuff could act as a ramp-up. Procs could then facilitate casting certain spells based on what you're doing. The only real snag is that (at least to my knowledge) mages are not constantly casting spells and keeping them on cooldown in combat (unlike Rift and WoW). So procs won't work well because you have less opportunity for the procs to happen. I really do hope that there's more coming out for the mages, because this looks very incomplete, IMO.

Edited, Nov 25th 2011 2:37am by Ruisu
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#117 Nov 25 2011 at 7:21 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
The only real snag is that (at least to my knowledge) mages are not constantly casting spells and keeping them on cooldown in combat (unlike Rift and WoW). So procs won't work well because you have less opportunity for the procs to happen. I really do hope that there's more coming out for the mages, because this looks very incomplete, IMO.


This is what makes me believe we will be casting spells back to back without much thought. If the procs go off, congratulations.
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#118 Nov 25 2011 at 8:33 AM Rating: Excellent
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First off: I quit playing about a month ago, when mindless powerleveling became the by far most lucrative way to level. As such, I am very critical about what SE is doing in general (being very disappointed by their previous decisions yaddayadda... the usual).

However, there is a slight chance that what now looks like "dumb-down" or "simplification" may in reality be little more than the foundations for a completely new combat system. As such, the absence of dedicated enfeebling spells may indicate that instead of... uh... how to express it... "static" spells that do always do effect "X", we will see a lot more spells whose effects change dynamically according to the spells and circumstances they are combined with. Which is unusual, but not necessarily bad.

Example: Spell 1 can be followed by either spell 2 for additional damage, or spell 3 for a chance of paralysis. Imagine a previous paralysis wears off right after you casted spell 1, which you originally wanted to follow up with spell 2. Now a skilful and experienced mage will switch to spell 3 on the spot, while a newcomer will be unable to adapt dynamically and continue casting spell 2. That system has potential for player skill to actually matter.

Also, in theory, that combat system is not limited to a single player. It may not be implemented in 1.20, but imagine that player 2 could quickly finish up the spell 1 player 1 cast with his own spell 4 for a surprise. Or, to be more concrete, another player`s water spell with his own fire spell for "antipode burst" or something...

What we see now is very, very humble, hilarious, ridiculous crap. But there is a tiny chance that this pile of sh*t is only the soil Yoshi wants to use to grow his flowers.

Edited, Nov 25th 2011 9:36am by Rinsui
#119 Nov 25 2011 at 8:49 AM Rating: Good
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TwiddleDee wrote:
rfolkker wrote:

But the opposite to this is that when Scholar and blue mage were released in 11, there were quite a few complaints about them not having a place because the abilities were already there. The same was true of dancer and puppet master.

By trimming the abilities by classes, this gives them a better ability to offer more classes with a more diverse ability set. One thing that I would love to see out of this would be a mage class for each element. But I don't think they could work that in. If you could have a class that specialized in each element, then have some of their abilities be class specific, but their basic elemental attacks be cross class, the diversity would be extensive, but it would allow for a far greater specialization.

For now, we are looking at an early beta of a game, and, while many of the decisions are going to offend and/or upset, they had 2 choices really, call it quits, or redesign the game from the ground up. By redesigning the game, we are going to lose things we like, it is the cost of redesign.

Many of them may come back (and most likely will), but not in the same way.

Until we see the abilities, at this point the information is just that. And keep in mind, the reason that companies tend to be hesitant about releasing information is for this exact reason. The negative reaction to an unknown can be devastating. However, with FFXIV in it's current state, they really have nothing to lose by people not liking something they haven't seen yet.

I guess I am just saying take the ability list with a grain of salt, and wait to see where this ride goes.
But then again, I am of the mind-set that giving everyone everything is non-productive for everyone.

Leveling should take time. Abilities should not be shared between all. Each class should be better at something then any other job. Each job should be weaker at something then any other job. And there should be no one size fits all with gear. Or Diversity through focus.

Even now with all the changes that have been happening, how many Lancer's, Gladiators, or Marauders at level 50 do you see in anything other then Red Cobalt gear? It is a perfect example to a very serious problem in the game.

Then again, I am tired, and it's mentally my friday...


I agree....



I too agree with this post. Worded brilliantly.
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#120 Nov 25 2011 at 9:13 AM Rating: Decent
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Rinsui wrote:
First off: I quit playing about a month ago, when mindless powerleveling became the by far most lucrative way to level. As such, I am very critical about what SE is doing in general (being very disappointed by their previous decisions yaddayadda... the usual).

However, there is a slight chance that what now looks like "dumb-down" or "simplification" may in reality be little more than the foundations for a completely new combat system. As such, the absence of dedicated enfeebling spells may indicate that instead of... uh... how to express it... "static" spells that do always do effect "X", we will see a lot more spells whose effects change dynamically according to the spells and circumstances they are combined with. Which is unusual, but not necessarily bad.

Example: Spell 1 can be followed by either spell 2 for additional damage, or spell 3 for a chance of paralysis. Imagine a previous paralysis wears off right after you casted spell 1, which you originally wanted to follow up with spell 2. Now a skilful and experienced mage will switch to spell 3 on the spot, while a newcomer will be unable to adapt dynamically and continue casting spell 2. That system has potential for player skill to actually matter.

Also, in theory, that combat system is not limited to a single player. It may not be implemented in 1.20, but imagine that player 2 could quickly finish up the spell 1 player 1 cast with his own spell 4 for a surprise. Or, to be more concrete, another player`s water spell with his own fire spell for "antipode burst" or something...

What we see now is very, very humble, hilarious, ridiculous crap. But there is a tiny chance that this pile of sh*t is only the soil Yoshi wants to use to grow his flowers.

Edited, Nov 25th 2011 9:36am by Rinsui


I see what you're getting at. They might even add more combos as time goes on to, adding depth and definitely some complex strategies. This can definitely work.
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#121 Nov 25 2011 at 9:25 AM Rating: Decent
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Rinsui wrote:

What we see now is very, very humble, hilarious, ridiculous crap. But there is a tiny chance that this pile of sh*t is only the soil Yoshi wants to use to grow his flowers.


A crude way of putting it, but not to far of the truth. Currently the game is developing and growing, so up until v2.0 most things are not set in stone, and are meant more to test mechanics then anything. If you look at the SE Screen Shot of fighting chimera, that action bar shows 2 row's of 10 slots, as well as macro's, and the ability to scroll through action lines. A macro indicates more then 1 skill (usually) intended for use. Most are forgetting that until v2 it's open beta.

EDIT:
Ok here's the fact people keep saying "game not worth paying for", to that i have one thing to say. Start of subs till v2.0 you will NOT be paying for a game. If you stay which no one is forcing you to, you will be paying for the privilege to test a product, have your say about it's development, and come v2.0 you will be ahead of the curve. Really it's not that strange of an idea, the company i work for dished out 100's of thousands to do the same with software, just so we can be a step ahead when it hit the market.

Edited, Nov 25th 2011 11:57am by TwiddleDee
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#122 Nov 25 2011 at 10:18 AM Rating: Good
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TwiddleDee wrote:
Most are forgetting that until v2 it's paid open beta.


Can't forget the most important part!
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#123 Nov 25 2011 at 12:24 PM Rating: Decent
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lambon wrote:
Quote:
The only real snag is that (at least to my knowledge) mages are not constantly casting spells and keeping them on cooldown in combat (unlike Rift and WoW). So procs won't work well because you have less opportunity for the procs to happen. I really do hope that there's more coming out for the mages, because this looks very incomplete, IMO.


This is what makes me believe we will be casting spells back to back without much thought. If the procs go off, congratulations.
See, what I'd think would work better would be something similar to how frost mages or fire mages work in WoW. You have procs that make a bigger spell instant cast with debuffs that increase the damage the mob takes provided you make sure the debuff stays up (fire) or debuffs that increase damage that also act as a damage modifier for a bigger spell (frost).

A crude example would be, say, a black mage having to open with Burn to keep a debuff up on a mob to act as a DoT component and increases fire damage done to the mob (from that Black Mage alone), then casting Fire and <Insert additional fire spell here> while ensuring the Burn debuff is up as part of a damage rotation. Burn's damage ticks have a chance of proccing a buff called Pyromaniac, which allows Flare to be cast instantly and at 75% MP cost. You'd still have the utility spells on the side as backup, but at least this way the damage model for a Black mage is centered on casting stuff without many idle periods. Assuming MP longevity is built-in without the crap about needing a refresh class in the party, you could also add in mechanics that help with MP longevity if you cast within your procs, whereas hard-casting outside of procs too much would make you go OOM.

Could also just copy frost mages with the way fingers of frost procs and shatter combos work.

Edited, Nov 26th 2011 7:32pm by Ruisu
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#124 Nov 25 2011 at 1:18 PM Rating: Good
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Ruisu wrote:
Assuming MP longevity is built-in without the crap about needing a refresh class in the party


They just recently made MP management the main "fun" of casting classes so I am doubtful that "mage-class-not-chained-to-refresher" is going to happen
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When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#125 Nov 25 2011 at 4:51 PM Rating: Decent
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Olorinus wrote:
They just recently made MP management the main "fun" of casting classes so I am doubtful that "mage-class-not-chained-to-refresher" is going to happen
Depends on how the design progresses. If the mage classes have some sort of way to regen MP in combat on their own and refund mechanics if they perform certain actions (and revert that silly move to make MP not regen in combat), you'd have a functional caster model and MP management as part of the design without the pointless refresher role.
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#126 Nov 25 2011 at 6:11 PM Rating: Decent
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Ruisu wrote:
Depends on how the design progresses. If the mage classes have some sort of way to regen MP in combat on their own and refund mechanics if they perform certain actions (and revert that silly move to make MP not regen in combat), you'd have a functional caster model and MP management as part of the design without the pointless refresher role.


From what they've shown us, every class/job that uses MP (monk included) has at least one way to restore its own MP. Additionally, the abilities that restore MP are not class-specific abilities, so they can be cross-classed.

That said, I can't believe that a suggestion here is "copy WoW's mages!" because the answer to success is not to take everything from WoW; SE has already "looked towards WoW" for things like showing enemy levels and aggro status, inventory management, spell scaling, quest givers, macro palette, ability distribution, mini-map display, character jumping, silly travel mounts, dungeon finders, and raid difficulty settings; does SE really need to start pasting WoW's classes in here now, too?
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"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#127 Nov 25 2011 at 6:38 PM Rating: Good
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KaneKitty wrote:
That said, I can't believe that a suggestion here is "copy WoW's mages!" because the answer to success is not to take everything from WoW;
I mentioned it more as an example of mage gameplay that is miles away from the "nuke once in a while, do nothing while your aggro dissipates" style, not to mention the "spend all your resources on one spell and then sit around waiting for Refresh to tick back some MP so you can start doing something again" style that we came to know in Final Fantasy XI. Resource management and damage per MP were a huge deal in FFXI, and the deck was stacked against nuking classes for a very long time because of it. It took Abyssea, refresh atmas and a "!" proc system for people to start caring about nukers, much less actually want them in parties.

Matsui's design for mages in FFXI didn't work. I don't trust him to now come up with something that works. Not even with Yoshida looking over his shoulder.

Edited, Nov 25th 2011 7:41pm by Ruisu
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#128 Nov 26 2011 at 4:31 PM Rating: Good
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ive read a few posts and all i have to say is:

mages are being so dumbed down and simplistic it makes me want to level a melee class- which ive never done before.
i dont care about not having all 6 elements... but is it necessary to focus fire on being our main nuke? how western generic...
and chance of extra ability procs? no thanks. only 15 class defining spells... what is this kindergarten?
60 spells is one extreme i didnt like but 15 spells is just another extreme. why couldnt we have 25 spells so we actually DO have the option of switching out the spells we personally deem worthless?
i most likely will NEVER need the "extends spell casting range" ability. id much rather switch that out for something like "enhances magic potency for your next spell", even if it had a high cooldown id still be able to start a battle off with it.

so am i to assume our spells will only have 1 animation each? allowing a very low level to cast the exact same elemental spell animation as someone at level cap? not only is that not part of tradition but it totally ruins immersion for me as well as plain old visual appeal.

not only did i look forward to gaining cooler equipment as i leveled but i looked forward to gaining cooler magic effects as i leveled.
did i equip those lower level magic spells? no i didnt, so here's hoping the spells animation changes as you level. everything else about the new mage direction screams childs play and excessive simplicity... probably for the sake of "ugh it takes toooooo looong to balance though" ugh.. whatever.

Edited, Nov 26th 2011 5:33pm by pixelpop
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#129 Nov 26 2011 at 5:44 PM Rating: Excellent
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pixelpop wrote:
everything else about the new mage direction screams childs play and excessive simplicity... probably for the sake of "ugh it takes toooooo looong to balance though" ugh.. whatever.


Unfortunately, I'm inclined to agree. We know that the developers are under a huge amount of pressure to release things and release them quickly (for obvious reasons), and in an environment like that, they're clearly pressured to choose the simplest route. The numbers mentioned are essentially arbitrary - simplified for the purpose of being easy to manage. They divided 50 by 10 and by 5 to arrive at their class design, they're slapping a progressive scaling equation across the ability board, and they're applying this massive blanket to every class in the game.

The end result is easy to manage and easy to balance but, perhaps most importantly, easy to forget in the slew of other similarly uninspired MMORPGs.


Edited, Nov 27th 2011 12:21pm by KaneKitty
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#130 Nov 27 2011 at 10:45 AM Rating: Good
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lambon wrote:
Has anyone noticed the lack of debuffs?

Also look at this..
Quote:
Deals earth damage to the target. Chance to reduce evasion against earth magic.

Really? So all I have to do is spam stone since using it makes it easier to land if it procs?

Quote:
Deals ice damage to all enemies within range. Chance to inflict Bind.

More streamlining...I'm not only inflicting damage, I am also binding them.

This leaves a terrible impression on me. We will always want to exploit elemental weakness, therefore I can conclude that we will be only using one spell.

Am I missing something? Please let me know.

Olorinus wrote:
Although I think the term "semi-brain-dead-simplicity" may apply to all aspects of where the game is headed at this point.


Remember those four keywords Yoshida mentioned in trying to fix this game? Fun, Live, Reboot, Rebuild.

That sounds nice, it's a fine corporate line.. But here are four that should be a bit more precise:

Simple, PvP, Casual, Western.

I don't think I need to elaborate very much; there are examples all over the place from other posts/forums. You had better believe that part of the whole "15 actions for each class at these exact intervals" is to more easily balance for PvP. To me this is selling PvE short - you should consider what you want a class/job to be able to do, and fully support that. If that means more (or less) than 15, that's what it should be. At least for a game that is supposed to be overwhelmingly PvE, where PvP is trivial by comparison.

They're shooting for a low common denominator as far as how much their players will have to critically think. It may appeal to a lot of people.. And I don't necessarily mean it as an insult - some people are capable but don't want to expend much brainpower when they're playing a video game. But I fear those people will continue to play other games, and really aren't interested in a Final Fantasy MMO.

Maybe Rinsui is right and this is just the groundwork for something much more imaginative and complex, but they've long since forfeited benefit of the doubt.

Edited, Nov 27th 2011 1:33pm by Coyohma
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#131 Nov 27 2011 at 11:29 AM Rating: Decent
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Coyohma wrote:
some people are capable but don't want to expend much brainpower when they're playing a video game. But I fear those people will continue to play other games, and really aren't interested in a Final Fantasy MMO.


This. It's the WoW-clone paradox: everyone wants to be like WoW, but nobody realizes that the desire cannot be accomplished by merely imitating WoW. Ultimately your fickle, casual fans gravitate back to the game they really liked, the game you tried to give them in the first place - WoW.
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#132 Nov 27 2011 at 9:30 PM Rating: Decent
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KaneKitty wrote:
Coyohma wrote:
some people are capable but don't want to expend much brainpower when they're playing a video game. But I fear those people will continue to play other games, and really aren't interested in a Final Fantasy MMO.


This. It's the WoW-clone paradox: everyone wants to be like WoW, but nobody realizes that the desire cannot be accomplished by merely imitating WoW. Ultimately your fickle, casual fans gravitate back to the game they really liked, the game you tried to give them in the first place - WoW.


You have done nothing but go on a wow bashing in this forum... how about once... just go on a positive final fantasy spree... I could barley play this game in beta so until PS3 comes out I have to rely on posts here, but between the "This game still sucks" posters and the "I HATE WOW SO BY DEFINITION THIS GAME IS STILL BETTER". I have to err on the side of caution and say your are just bashing Wow for the sake of bashing. This game on the other hand Is a failure no matter how much you Bash Wow to make it seem better. I like this new director I think he gets it, I think he will be a VERY positive person on Japanese MMO gaming. I want this game to succeed but if I have to put up with schmucks like you then no
thanks, I'll stick to my 1-5 hrs of gaming a week I do in Wow and maybe pick up SWToR when it comes out. But YOU Aren't selling it to me.

It's a shame really, I am so buying into this new director but then reality hits and I realize we still got pricks on the forums to deal with, Whats the point you'll be one of the first to bash newbs for not having +1 armor, swords, ect... when 2.0 releases
#133 Nov 27 2011 at 11:48 PM Rating: Decent
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Devildawgs wrote:
KaneKitty wrote:
Coyohma wrote:
some people are capable but don't want to expend much brainpower when they're playing a video game. But I fear those people will continue to play other games, and really aren't interested in a Final Fantasy MMO.


This. It's the WoW-clone paradox: everyone wants to be like WoW, but nobody realizes that the desire cannot be accomplished by merely imitating WoW. Ultimately your fickle, casual fans gravitate back to the game they really liked, the game you tried to give them in the first place - WoW.


You have done nothing but go on a wow bashing in this forum... how about once... just go on a positive final fantasy spree... I could barley play this game in beta so until PS3 comes out I have to rely on posts here, but between the "This game still sucks" posters and the "I HATE WOW SO BY DEFINITION THIS GAME IS STILL BETTER". I have to err on the side of caution and say your are just bashing Wow for the sake of bashing. This game on the other hand Is a failure no matter how much you Bash Wow to make it seem better. I like this new director I think he gets it, I think he will be a VERY positive person on Japanese MMO gaming. I want this game to succeed but if I have to put up with schmucks like you then no
thanks, I'll stick to my 1-5 hrs of gaming a week I do in Wow and maybe pick up SWToR when it comes out. But YOU Aren't selling it to me.

It's a shame really, I am so buying into this new director but then reality hits and I realize we still got pricks on the forums to deal with, Whats the point you'll be one of the first to bash newbs for not having +1 armor, swords, ect... when 2.0 releases


But but... Wow is the cause for cancer :/
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#134 Nov 28 2011 at 11:36 AM Rating: Good
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Devildawgs wrote:
KaneKitty wrote:
Coyohma wrote:
some people are capable but don't want to expend much brainpower when they're playing a video game. But I fear those people will continue to play other games, and really aren't interested in a Final Fantasy MMO.


This. It's the WoW-clone paradox: everyone wants to be like WoW, but nobody realizes that the desire cannot be accomplished by merely imitating WoW. Ultimately your fickle, casual fans gravitate back to the game they really liked, the game you tried to give them in the first place - WoW.


You have done nothing but go on a wow bashing in this forum... how about once... just go on a positive final fantasy spree... I could barley play this game in beta so until PS3 comes out I have to rely on posts here, but between the "This game still sucks" posters and the "I HATE WOW SO BY DEFINITION THIS GAME IS STILL BETTER". I have to err on the side of caution and say your are just bashing Wow for the sake of bashing. This game on the other hand Is a failure no matter how much you Bash Wow to make it seem better. I like this new director I think he gets it, I think he will be a VERY positive person on Japanese MMO gaming. I want this game to succeed but if I have to put up with schmucks like you then no
thanks, I'll stick to my 1-5 hrs of gaming a week I do in Wow and maybe pick up SWToR when it comes out. But YOU Aren't selling it to me.


But... I didn't criticize WoW at all...
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#135 Nov 28 2011 at 12:07 PM Rating: Decent
KaneKitty wrote:
Devildawgs wrote:
KaneKitty wrote:
Coyohma wrote:
some people are capable but don't want to expend much brainpower when they're playing a video game. But I fear those people will continue to play other games, and really aren't interested in a Final Fantasy MMO.


This. It's the WoW-clone paradox: everyone wants to be like WoW, but nobody realizes that the desire cannot be accomplished by merely imitating WoW. Ultimately your fickle, casual fans gravitate back to the game they really liked, the game you tried to give them in the first place - WoW.


You have done nothing but go on a wow bashing in this forum... how about once... just go on a positive final fantasy spree... I could barley play this game in beta so until PS3 comes out I have to rely on posts here, but between the "This game still sucks" posters and the "I HATE WOW SO BY DEFINITION THIS GAME IS STILL BETTER". I have to err on the side of caution and say your are just bashing Wow for the sake of bashing. This game on the other hand Is a failure no matter how much you Bash Wow to make it seem better. I like this new director I think he gets it, I think he will be a VERY positive person on Japanese MMO gaming. I want this game to succeed but if I have to put up with schmucks like you then no
thanks, I'll stick to my 1-5 hrs of gaming a week I do in Wow and maybe pick up SWToR when it comes out. But YOU Aren't selling it to me.


But... I didn't criticize WoW at all...


It never seems to fail - mention WoW, regardless of the context and other posters begin a ranting/rating war, regardless of the thread, forum, or site.

WoW succeeded by taking the best of other games (part 1 to the formula of success) and improving on them (part 2 to the formula of success) - WoW-Clones fail on the second part, and Failing games miss the first part.

Missing either of the two fronts may well lead players back to "WoW" - or you could insert any other "successful" game title - but in the long run, this is more of a discussion of why SE has missed out on part one - "taking the best of other games" - and why even with their revamping of the systems they continue to miss even this mark. I continue to play because I believe that at some point they will get it, and I'm one of those guys who likes being able to say "I remember when."

Edited, Nov 28th 2011 1:08pm by Dyrwydi
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#136 Nov 28 2011 at 1:00 PM Rating: Good
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Coyohma wrote:

Remember those four keywords Yoshida mentioned in trying to fix this game? Fun, Live, Reboot, Rebuild.

That sounds nice, it's a fine corporate line.. But here are four that should be a bit more precise:

Simple, PvP, Casual, Western.


Yeah, I am afraid you're right. It's a darn shame but this looks like the direction it is headed, although I would argue the current grind is still nothing "casual" at all but otherwise, yes I agree.
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#137 Nov 28 2011 at 2:18 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:

That sounds nice, it's a fine corporate line.. But here are four that should be a bit more precise:

Simple, PvP, Casual, Western.


That's WoW, if XIV wants to be something more then another title of WoW follower's/wannabe's it must stay true to Yoshida's plan. If you understood what his bottom line for a good result is the Fun, Live, Reboot, Rebuild make perfect sens. XIV is far to fragile at the moment, if they tried to change the course of progress it would simply put to much weight on a base not ready to support it.
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#138 Nov 28 2011 at 4:25 PM Rating: Good
TwiddleDee wrote:
Quote:

That sounds nice, it's a fine corporate line.. But here are four that should be a bit more precise:

Simple, PvP, Casual, Western.


That's WoW, if XIV wants to be something more then another title of WoW follower's/wannabe's it must stay true to Yoshida's plan. If you understood what his bottom line for a good result is the Fun, Live, Reboot, Rebuild make perfect sens. XIV is far to fragile at the moment, if they tried to change the course of progress it would simply put to much weight on a base not ready to support it.


No one wants to see FFXIV become a "WoW-Clone" but that's not to say that no one wants to see the stability and play-ability of XIV equal that of WoW. WoW sets benchmarks when it comes to enjoyable leveling system (opinions may differ on this within the XIV community - but the game must appeal to more than simply the few thousand of us currently playing), depth of end-game content, and a streamlined in-game economic platform. These elements are critical to any game's success, and the game who currently delivers the best solutions to these key areas is WoW. The way that Yoshi-P is developing should leads to a platform that addresses these keys areas, yet improves in areas critical to the unique flavor of the game - crafting system / content, gathering system, storyline, graphics style, abilities / magic, etc.
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#139Devildawgs, Posted: Nov 28 2011 at 6:26 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I have been lurking this fourm since beta... you've done nothing but bash Wow here all I am saying is at least try to be positive FFXIV poster and not a Wow hater on a forum THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO ABOUT WOW. I get it, great you hate that game, now how about telling me what is great here ffs... That's all I am asking. I don't want to here about how Wow sucks in the
#140 Nov 28 2011 at 8:21 PM Rating: Good
Devildawgs wrote:
Quote:
But... I didn't criticize WoW at all...


I have been lurking this fourm since beta... you've done nothing but bash Wow here all I am saying is at least try to be positive FFXIV poster and not a Wow hater on a forum THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO ABOUT WOW. I get it, great you hate that game, now how about telling me what is great here ffs... That's all I am asking. I don't want to here about how Wow sucks in the
FFXIV forums, I wanna hear about FFXIV.


Seriously? In general Kane and I disagree on a lot, but I'm afraid you are either thinking of someone else, or just flat out wrong.

Edited, Nov 28th 2011 9:26pm by Dyrwydi
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#141 Nov 29 2011 at 4:07 AM Rating: Excellent
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Olorinus wrote:
Yeah, I am afraid you're right. It's a darn shame but this looks like the direction it is headed, although I would argue the current grind is still nothing "casual" at all but otherwise, yes I agree.

It's possible to get from 1 to 50 in a day, so at least for DoW/M that's set up to be extremely casual. The problem as everyone knows is that low level parties are very difficult to come by, and lots of people are PLing through it. However assuming there are more people playing when 2.0 debuts / using a party search function, getting something going (be it regular EXP party or PL) will be much easier to come by. As long as you can get anything decent going, the EXP will come at breakneck speeds.

Anyway, to get back on topic and to add on to one of lambon's points.. Not only is there a lack of debuffs seen here, and not only will they be attatched to damage spells.. But the debuffs we know even now are unreliable. Kaeko posted some testing earlier this month, and it suggests a land rate cap of 75%. A pretty huge departure from XI's 95% cap.

Why are they doing this? Why are they putting, it seems, less and less importance on enfeebling? My guess is that they believe most of the people they're trying to get playing don't care much for it. But they do want to deal damage, so to make it more palatable, two birds with one stone.. They technically keep a few debuffs in the game, but they tie them in with dealing damage.

Edited, Nov 29th 2011 5:26am by Coyohma
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#142 Nov 29 2011 at 8:31 AM Rating: Excellent
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Devildawgs wrote:
Quote:
But... I didn't criticize WoW at all...


I have been lurking this fourm since beta... you've done nothing but bash Wow here all I am saying is at least try to be positive FFXIV poster and not a Wow hater on a forum THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO ABOUT WOW. I get it, great you hate that game, now how about telling me what is great here ffs... That's all I am asking. I don't want to here about how Wow sucks in the
FFXIV forums, I wanna hear about FFXIV.

I get that you want to talk about XIV but I think you got him wrong. IMO, he was more bashing the way a game will decide to blindly follow WoW in hopes of getting the big numbers and that if a game does that, the people playing it will eventually go back to WoW if that's the kind of game play they want and the game is screwed because of it.

WoW might be fine but clones of WoW just trying to get people to jump ship aren't so great.

I think that was the WoW discussion though I still think he went off on a rant and that no one specifically said make it like WoW as much as they used examples from WoW of something that worked but that's a different discussion.
#143 Nov 29 2011 at 1:21 PM Rating: Good
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Professor Dyrwydi wrote:
In general Kane and I disagree on a lot,


If I agree with that statement will the world implode with paradox? o_o

Really, though, it's all well-intended; the forums wouldn't be very interesting without some amount of conflict - plus it's impossible to stay too angry at a someone whose icon is a recumbent rodent.
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#144 Nov 29 2011 at 3:33 PM Rating: Good
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Really hoping new news pops up soon, there's almost nothing that has not been debated and fought over to death. Something new is needed for people to over analyze and jump to conclusion about. I have never been a fan of the gray area before a patch, were the Dev. is rushing to finish, and the players waiting for a miracle.
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#145 Nov 29 2011 at 4:01 PM Rating: Default
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Anyone worry that they remove sentinel and slow? I am quite unsure if Ifrit ca n be beatable without those 2 ability....
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#146 Nov 29 2011 at 4:07 PM Rating: Good
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xellosalpha wrote:
Anyone worry that they remove sentinel and slow? I am quite unsure if Ifrit ca n be beatable without those 2 ability....

uhm, he is beatable w/o them right now....
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#147 Nov 29 2011 at 4:10 PM Rating: Default
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xellosalpha wrote:
Anyone worry that they remove sentinel and slow? I am quite unsure if Ifrit ca n be beatable without those 2 ability....


For Sentinel:
Quote:
GLA Abl. 1 - Temporarily reduces damage you sustain and increases enmity generated by actions executed while effect is active.
ARC Abl. 3 - Consumes MP to evade a single ranged or magic attack.


For Slow:
You can win without.


Edited, Nov 29th 2011 5:12pm by TwiddleDee
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#148 Nov 29 2011 at 7:01 PM Rating: Good
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TwiddleDee wrote:
For Slow:
You can win without.


Yeah, who needed a low-cost spell that resulted in a ~65% melee damage mitigation, anyway? Smiley: rolleyes
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#149 Nov 29 2011 at 11:26 PM Rating: Good
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KaneKitty wrote:
TwiddleDee wrote:
For Slow:
You can win without.


Yeah, who needed a low-cost spell that resulted in a ~65% melee damage mitigation, anyway? Smiley: rolleyes


I never had an Ifrit fight with slow, it's not really required because for me Ifrit tends to do flashy skills more often then melee.

Speaking of Ifrit, how many people actually do it with a tank other than GLA/MRD? Cause the guys in my LS did it with a PUG for teh lulz and succeeded.

Edited, Nov 30th 2011 12:27am by Khornette
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#150 Nov 29 2011 at 11:34 PM Rating: Good
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KaneKitty wrote:
Coyohma wrote:
some people are capable but don't want to expend much brainpower when they're playing a video game. But I fear those people will continue to play other games, and really aren't interested in a Final Fantasy MMO.


This. It's the WoW-clone paradox: everyone wants to be like WoW, but nobody realizes that the desire cannot be accomplished by merely imitating WoW. Ultimately your fickle, casual fans gravitate back to the game they really liked, the game you tried to give them in the first place - WoW.


That's all well and good, but it's important to realize that there isn't just one game called "WoW", either.

WoW has changed quite a bit over the last 7 years, especially with Cataclysm and again soon with the release of Mists of Pandaria. These changes have never been unanimously liked, and WoW is currently hemorrhaging players (down 14% over the last three quarters) - there is certainly room for games that hearken back to older incarnations of WoW. (Not that I think FFXIV MUST go in a WoW-like direction, only that doing so would not be a recipe for failure.)

And don't oversell the "clone paradox" issue, either - after all, all 2D platformers, for example, are fundamentally Super Mario Bros clones, but that doesn't mean that people would abandon their shiny new platformers and go back to SMB. Granted, MMOs are subject to network effects - no one wants to play an online game that no one else is playing, and having friends in a game makes it easier to start and harder to quit) - but even those can be overcome or used against you (in-game social ties also make it possible for players to drag others en masse to another game - witness the phenomenon of entire guilds leaving their current game for the new hotness).

After all, WoW is itself just an EQ clone to begin with...
#151 Nov 30 2011 at 7:39 AM Rating: Decent
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BastokFL wrote:
KaneKitty wrote:
Coyohma wrote:
some people are capable but don't want to expend much brainpower when they're playing a video game. But I fear those people will continue to play other games, and really aren't interested in a Final Fantasy MMO.


This. It's the WoW-clone paradox: everyone wants to be like WoW, but nobody realizes that the desire cannot be accomplished by merely imitating WoW. Ultimately your fickle, casual fans gravitate back to the game they really liked, the game you tried to give them in the first place - WoW.


That's all well and good, but it's important to realize that there isn't just one game called "WoW", either.

WoW has changed quite a bit over the last 7 years, especially with Cataclysm and again soon with the release of Mists of Pandaria. These changes have never been unanimously liked, and WoW is currently hemorrhaging players (down 14% over the last three quarters) - there is certainly room for games that hearken back to older incarnations of WoW. (Not that I think FFXIV MUST go in a WoW-like direction, only that doing so would not be a recipe for failure.)

And don't oversell the "clone paradox" issue, either - after all, all 2D platformers, for example, are fundamentally Super Mario Bros clones, but that doesn't mean that people would abandon their shiny new platformers and go back to SMB. Granted, MMOs are subject to network effects - no one wants to play an online game that no one else is playing, and having friends in a game makes it easier to start and harder to quit) - but even those can be overcome or used against you (in-game social ties also make it possible for players to drag others en masse to another game - witness the phenomenon of entire guilds leaving their current game for the new hotness).

After all, WoW is itself just an EQ clone to begin with...


Everything is a EQ clone since EQ was release.... Just saying
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