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#1 Nov 29 2011 at 11:30 PM Rating: Default
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My wife and I have played Finaly Fantasy XI for seven years (just before WOW took the majority of the population from the servers). The game was tough because you actually had to put weeks into getting pieces of armor and gaining levels which made it something to look forward to and made the game fun. The Abysea addition murdered that game. Every fun aspect of XI is gone. Half of the expansions are unused. XIV was an abomination. We were dumb enough to save for months to get a brand new computer that would run the game. Getting to the point... There should be no problem with RMT. They put in the time and the money for extra characters to farm mobs to sell what they made. Yes, it is annoying to stumble on a group of bots camping an awesome creature, but it's equally annoying to find another party of other gamers camping the same mob. You can't kick other people out of the game for being in your space, why kick the RMTs out? Why don't you all sell gil yourselves and make a profit?



Then again...maybe SE is already making a little RMT cash on the side...which is bloody brilliant!

Here's hoping to fixing XIV and making it playable (hint, put a **** auction house in!)


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#2 Nov 30 2011 at 12:12 AM Rating: Excellent
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#3 Nov 30 2011 at 12:17 AM Rating: Good
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Still impatiently awaiting fourteen's arrival for PS3.... And I agree, XI went to **** with Abyssea. WTF is with the lack of level caps for important ****? It took me months to get my WHM to 75 since I unfortunately work nights it was hard to find a party. I played for a month after Abyssea and within the first week I had my WHM to 90 and three other jobs close enough before I eventually grew bored and gave it up. Missing XI very much and hoping like **** fourteen will kick ***. Can't wait!
#4 Nov 30 2011 at 1:34 AM Rating: Decent
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ITT: XI was ruined by allowing people to level faster, allowing more access to endgame and removing the countless hours of shouting to organize for a quest, mission or NM fight that took 5 minutes...

I don't get it. Why would you want 8 year old content to still be relevant? What is the problem with progressing so that new content takes the place of old?
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cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#5 Nov 30 2011 at 4:28 AM Rating: Decent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
I don't get it. Why would you want 8 year old content to still be relevant? What is the problem with progressing so that new content takes the place of old?


I don't get it, why wouldn't you want all the contents to be relevant? MMO is all about content isn't it. Maybe for some one who has been playing for 8 years then the old content need to be irrelevant to you, but not all other people would want it that way. Less grind, sure, but not making content irrelevant.
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#6 Nov 30 2011 at 7:17 AM Rating: Excellent
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I'm so confused.

XI Abyssea ruined the game / XIV sucks = RMT Good ?

That's some insane logic going on there....

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#7 Nov 30 2011 at 7:33 AM Rating: Excellent
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.....

what.
#8 Nov 30 2011 at 7:41 AM Rating: Default
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#9 Nov 30 2011 at 8:10 AM Rating: Decent
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Khornette wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
I don't get it. Why would you want 8 year old content to still be relevant? What is the problem with progressing so that new content takes the place of old?


I don't get it, why wouldn't you want all the contents to be relevant? MMO is all about content isn't it. Maybe for some one who has been playing for 8 years then the old content need to be irrelevant to you, but not all other people would want it that way. Less grind, sure, but not making content irrelevant.


You feel free to go ahead and do *years* old Dynamis, Sea, Sky, etc. simply because you feel it needs to be current. After all, using that failed logic, why even bother furthering gaming at all? Let's just go back to Dragon Quest I and Final Fantasy I because there is never any need to move onto bigger and better things!

o wait...

Newsflash: Intelligent game designers don't hold *all* of the content in a game relevant in an MMO forever simply because it accumulates. After a few years, it builds stress upon players (especially new ones) and enforces this "brick wall" mentality that leads them to believe that there's simply too much to do and it isn't worth trying to catch up, which leads them to eventually quit the game.

It not only splinters the playerbase and breeds resentment, but it also severely stagnates a game. FFXI never got beyond 600K concurrent accounts and has bleed down to barely 100K pre-Abyssea because of this. Players were kept at the exact same power level since the 75 cap was put into place and progression stopped. Oh sure, there were a handful of events that were released in the future, but it's shown that the development team never really bothered to make a lot of content for the game: why would they decide to when everything is kept current and relevant?

Like it or not, FFXI's (previous) lack of vertical progression is a model that no one else uses for a very good reason. Even after Abyssea, instead of coming up with new events the developers have decided to just pull bosses from Abyssea, set them outside in the world with new names (and sometimes skins), and re-tune older content instead of actually coming up with more new ideas than absolutely necessary.

Edited, Nov 30th 2011 9:14am by Viertel
#10 Nov 30 2011 at 8:22 AM Rating: Decent
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v0dka360 wrote:
My wife and I have played Finaly Fantasy XI for seven years (just before WOW took the majority of the population from the servers). The game was tough because you actually had to put weeks into getting pieces of armor and gaining levels which made it something to look forward to and made the game fun. The Abysea addition murdered that game. Every fun aspect of XI is gone. Half of the expansions are unused. XIV was an abomination. We were dumb enough to save for months to get a brand new computer that would run the game. Getting to the point... There should be no problem with RMT. They put in the time and the money for extra characters to farm mobs to sell what they made. Yes, it is annoying to stumble on a group of bots camping an awesome creature, but it's equally annoying to find another party of other gamers camping the same mob. You can't kick other people out of the game for being in your space, why kick the RMTs out? Why don't you all sell gil yourselves and make a profit?



Then again...maybe SE is already making a little RMT cash on the side...which is bloody brilliant!

Here's hoping to fixing XIV and making it playable (hint, put a **** auction house in!)


vodkafuion ┼ kerplunk RAMUH Forever !


Yes, They are putting a AH in, should be pretty soon that it will. Things have changed quite a bit since I have last seen you online; and I really would reccommend that you take some time to hop in and see how much has really changed. There are quests to run, things to do, and it is much easier to gain rank than the last time you have played.

NM's have a quick respawn timer to reduce the heavy camping, HMN's have the in-game Daily timers. The Dungeon raids have 15 min reset timers, and can be pretty fun.

You have about a month left of the free trial before FFXIV goes pay to play. Stop by and say hi.
#11 Nov 30 2011 at 11:14 AM Rating: Decent
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Viertel wrote:
why even bother furthering gaming at all? Let's just go back to Dragon Quest I and Final Fantasy I because there is never any need to move onto bigger and better things!

o wait...


Totally: I mean, who'd ever buy a remake of an old Final Fantasy? We have bigger and better ones now - like XIII and XIV!


Edited, Nov 30th 2011 2:10pm by KaneKitty
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#12 Nov 30 2011 at 11:29 AM Rating: Good
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Khornette wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
I don't get it. Why would you want 8 year old content to still be relevant? What is the problem with progressing so that new content takes the place of old?


I don't get it, why wouldn't you want all the contents to be relevant? MMO is all about content isn't it. Maybe for some one who has been playing for 8 years then the old content need to be irrelevant to you, but not all other people would want it that way. Less grind, sure, but not making content irrelevant.


You don't want old content to be relevant because expansions should progress you through new stories, new encounters with bosses, new sh*t. I'm not saying that you should remove any reason to be in an older zone, but expansions should make you want to complete new content and not the old stuff.


Edited, Nov 30th 2011 12:29pm by FilthMcNasty
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#13 Nov 30 2011 at 12:20 PM Rating: Good
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Viertel wrote:
FFXI never got beyond 600K concurrent accounts and has bleed down to barely 100K pre-Abyssea because of this. Players were kept at the exact same power level since the 75 cap was put into place and progression stopped. Oh sure, there were a handful of events that were released in the future, but it's shown that the development team never really bothered to make a lot of content for the game: why would they decide to when everything is kept current and relevant?

Like it or not, FFXI's (previous) lack of vertical progression is a model that no one else uses for a very good reason.


Yet, despite that "lack of vertical progression" and everything else you listed, pre-Abyssea FFXI kept my attention far longer than any other MMO that has hit the market since and was a MMO environment I'd love to be able to experience again - and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

That's OK though, the Final Fantasy online series is a niche MMO market and some of us really enjoy that niche.
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#14 Nov 30 2011 at 1:45 PM Rating: Good
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XainVeliki wrote:
v0dka360 wrote:
My wife and I have played Finaly Fantasy XI for seven years (just before WOW took the majority of the population from the servers). The game was tough because you actually had to put weeks into getting pieces of armor and gaining levels which made it something to look forward to and made the game fun. The Abysea addition murdered that game. Every fun aspect of XI is gone. Half of the expansions are unused. XIV was an abomination. We were dumb enough to save for months to get a brand new computer that would run the game. Getting to the point... There should be no problem with RMT. They put in the time and the money for extra characters to farm mobs to sell what they made. Yes, it is annoying to stumble on a group of bots camping an awesome creature, but it's equally annoying to find another party of other gamers camping the same mob. You can't kick other people out of the game for being in your space, why kick the RMTs out? Why don't you all sell gil yourselves and make a profit?



Then again...maybe SE is already making a little RMT cash on the side...which is bloody brilliant!

Here's hoping to fixing XIV and making it playable (hint, put a **** auction house in!)


vodkafuion ┼ kerplunk RAMUH Forever !


Yes, They are putting a AH in, should be pretty soon that it will. Things have changed quite a bit since I have last seen you online; and I really would reccommend that you take some time to hop in and see how much has really changed. There are quests to run, things to do, and it is much easier to gain rank than the last time you have played.

NM's have a quick respawn timer to reduce the heavy camping, HMN's have the in-game Daily timers. The Dungeon raids have 15 min reset timers, and can be pretty fun.

You have about a month left of the free trial before FFXIV goes pay to play. Stop by and say hi.


I'm not so sure they are adding in an AH. They are more or less going to make further changes to the market wards to add AH like functionality. Things like being able to purchase things w/o having to find the retainer and buy it face to face and having a price history of previous sell prices for that item. This is what I've gathered in previous interviews and such. If this is different, I'd like to read where you found this.
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#15 Nov 30 2011 at 2:14 PM Rating: Decent
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swisa wrote:

I'm not so sure they are adding in an AH. They are more or less going to make further changes to the market wards to add AH like functionality. Things like being able to purchase things w/o having to find the retainer and buy it face to face and having a price history of previous sell prices for that item. This is what I've gathered in previous interviews and such. If this is different, I'd like to read where you found this.


Right. In the Second live Letter of the Producer:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/30508-The-Letter-from-the-Producer-LIVE-Part-II-Video-Q-A-Summary-Released!

He just sums up that they will be adding the final adjustments to make the Market Wards close enough to be a Auction House. In my opinion that would be the "tomato-tomahto" situation. Sure there are small differences, but in the end it will have pretty much all of what XI had. Will that make everyone happy?
#16 Nov 30 2011 at 2:17 PM Rating: Default
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Suffice it to say, even though abyssea made a whole lot things easier, it's still not picnic for high levels (now 95) to get their seals, abyssea zone bosses, among other things. This is the new challenge. If you can find them, and you can cause I have a linkshell for this, but you can still find comradery with others and do expansion pack missions together, and other things like nyzul isle, dynamis, sky, etc. So the gamne isn't that far gone. You just gotta look harder.

Mo
#17 Nov 30 2011 at 5:12 PM Rating: Decent
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XainVeliki wrote:
swisa wrote:

I'm not so sure they are adding in an AH. They are more or less going to make further changes to the market wards to add AH like functionality. Things like being able to purchase things w/o having to find the retainer and buy it face to face and having a price history of previous sell prices for that item. This is what I've gathered in previous interviews and such. If this is different, I'd like to read where you found this.


Right. In the Second live Letter of the Producer:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/30508-The-Letter-from-the-Producer-LIVE-Part-II-Video-Q-A-Summary-Released!

He just sums up that they will be adding the final adjustments to make the Market Wards close enough to be a Auction House. In my opinion that would be the "tomato-tomahto" situation. Sure there are small differences, but in the end it will have pretty much all of what XI had. Will that make everyone happy?


I appreciate your clarification. With all the people complaining that there is no AH, I assumed that you meant add an AH like the ones in XI. To answer your question, "Will that make everyone happy?", I certainly hope so. I'm tired of people complaining about not having an AH.
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#18 Nov 30 2011 at 5:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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Early FFXI was brutal. Aggro an easy prey? Prepare to have your *** handed to you. Decent challenge? Don't even bother running to the zone. Waiting hours for a party, sitting for hours camping NMs against countless RMTs. Joining HNMLs to again, spend hours camping NM for a small percentage drop, against countless RMTs.

I think FFXI peaked sometime right after Treasures of Aht Urghan.

What Abyssea did to the game is a subjective matter. I enjoyed a lot of its features, although I agree that it killed off like 99% of the content outside of Abyssea.
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#19 Nov 30 2011 at 8:31 PM Rating: Good
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#20 Nov 30 2011 at 8:52 PM Rating: Good
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Khornette wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
I don't get it. Why would you want 8 year old content to still be relevant? What is the problem with progressing so that new content takes the place of old?


I don't get it, why wouldn't you want all the contents to be relevant? MMO is all about content isn't it. Maybe for some one who has been playing for 8 years then the old content need to be irrelevant to you, but not all other people would want it that way. Less grind, sure, but not making content irrelevant.


You don't want old content to be relevant because expansions should progress you through new stories, new encounters with bosses, new sh*t. I'm not saying that you should remove any reason to be in an older zone, but expansions should make you want to complete new content and not the old stuff.


Edited, Nov 30th 2011 12:29pm by FilthMcNasty


That is the point of view of hard-core players who stick to the game non-stop for a very long time, because you are already fed up with old content you don't need them anymore. What about the new or even people who casual played it before wanting to return? All they get is this "new" content which would dry up pretty fast since it's after all just an expansion? I'm not saying expansion shouldn't be good and should not draw people away from old stuff, but if it makes old content useless then it is not good. That is a mistake that many MMOs are making, and they are doomed to never grow beyond what they had. No matter how many more contents you are churning out, you won't grow, instead you are on the decline. I'm not FFXI veteran, I only played it very casually for a month this August for the first time, and all I saw was that there are barely any new players around, everybody else is busy in this Abysseawhatever, which made me quit.


Viertel wrote:
Khornette wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
I don't get it. Why would you want 8 year old content to still be relevant? What is the problem with progressing so that new content takes the place of old?


I don't get it, why wouldn't you want all the contents to be relevant? MMO is all about content isn't it. Maybe for some one who has been playing for 8 years then the old content need to be irrelevant to you, but not all other people would want it that way. Less grind, sure, but not making content irrelevant.


You feel free to go ahead and do *years* old Dynamis, Sea, Sky, etc. simply because you feel it needs to be current. After all, using that failed logic, why even bother furthering gaming at all? Let's just go back to Dragon Quest I and Final Fantasy I because there is never any need to move onto bigger and better things!

o wait...

Newsflash: Intelligent game designers don't hold *all* of the content in a game relevant in an MMO forever simply because it accumulates. After a few years, it builds stress upon players (especially new ones) and enforces this "brick wall" mentality that leads them to believe that there's simply too much to do and it isn't worth trying to catch up, which leads them to eventually quit the game.

It not only splinters the playerbase and breeds resentment, but it also severely stagnates a game. FFXI never got beyond 600K concurrent accounts and has bleed down to barely 100K pre-Abyssea because of this. Players were kept at the exact same power level since the 75 cap was put into place and progression stopped. Oh sure, there were a handful of events that were released in the future, but it's shown that the development team never really bothered to make a lot of content for the game: why would they decide to when everything is kept current and relevant?

Like it or not, FFXI's (previous) lack of vertical progression is a model that no one else uses for a very good reason. Even after Abyssea, instead of coming up with new events the developers have decided to just pull bosses from Abyssea, set them outside in the world with new names (and sometimes skins), and re-tune older content instead of actually coming up with more new ideas than absolutely necessary.

Edited, Nov 30th 2011 9:14am by Viertel


Like I said, you focus too much on the expansion and you can draw a fraction of your current player in. New players care less about your new expansions, what's this lvl 99 cap increase mean to someone who has never played the game before? Nothing. Vertical progression is good, but it is not good alone. Vertical and Horizontal progression together is good. There is a reason why *coughs* WoW Cataclysm and Mist of Pandaria aren't just level cap increase and new raids, they are desperately trying to get new blood in for the game not just appeasing old players.

Edited, Nov 30th 2011 9:59pm by Khornette
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#21 Nov 30 2011 at 10:31 PM Rating: Default
v0dka360 wrote:
My wife and I have played Finaly Fantasy XI for seven years (just before WOW took the majority of the population from the servers). The game was tough because you actually had to put weeks into getting pieces of armor and gaining levels which made it something to look forward to and made the game fun. The Abysea addition murdered that game. Every fun aspect of XI is gone. Half of the expansions are unused. XIV was an abomination. We were dumb enough to save for months to get a brand new computer that would run the game. Getting to the point... There should be no problem with RMT. They put in the time and the money for extra characters to farm mobs to sell what they made. Yes, it is annoying to stumble on a group of bots camping an awesome creature, but it's equally annoying to find another party of other gamers camping the same mob. You can't kick other people out of the game for being in your space, why kick the RMTs out? Why don't you all sell gil yourselves and make a profit?



Then again...maybe SE is already making a little RMT cash on the side...which is bloody brilliant!

Here's hoping to fixing XIV and making it playable (hint, put a **** auction house in!)


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Cool story bro.
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#22 Nov 30 2011 at 11:30 PM Rating: Good
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Khornette wrote:
What about the new or even people who casual played it before wanting to return? All they get is this "new" content which would dry up pretty fast since it's after all just an expansion? I'm not saying expansion shouldn't be good and should not draw people away from old stuff, but if it makes old content useless then it is not good.


Useless is the wrong word choice. Areas might not see as much traffic, but that doesn't mean they're useless. You might have a point if Fields of Valor and Grounds of Valor only had content for higher level players, but it caters to everyone. Actually, I'd say lower level players get more out of it if anything.

Khornette wrote:
what's this lvl 99 cap increase mean to someone who has never played the game before?

Uncapping levels to 99 isn't supposed to mean anything to low level players. Why would it? That doesn't make sense at all.

Khornette wrote:
There is a reason why *coughs* WoW Cataclysm and Mist of Pandaria aren't just level cap increase and new raids, they are desperately trying to get new blood in for the game not just appeasing old players.

WoW is far from starved for a playerbase. They retooled the old zones because the world changed during the Deathwing event. It's kinda hard to break the world in half without any explanation of why it's like that. They improved quests for lower level players and it encouraged players who already had characters at cap to level other classes. Save for some events like AQ, you can still go back and do most low level content in WoW.

XIV is doing something similar to(read: copying) WoW in this aspect with the Umbral event. Supposedly it will have several effects on the world and explain why new mobs replace old, copy pasta gets removed ect.

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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#23 Dec 01 2011 at 12:13 AM Rating: Decent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Useless is the wrong word choice. Areas might not see as much traffic, but that doesn't mean they're useless. You might have a point if Fields of Valor and Grounds of Valor only had content for higher level players, but it caters to everyone. Actually, I'd say lower level players get more out of it if anything.
In some ways it does more harm than good but I still prefer the faster level progression. You tend to level a ton faster than your skills though, which leaves you as the most gimp, most useless high level player in existence until your skills catch up. I've seen level 95 Black Mages geared to the teeth who can barely put out a 500 damage nuke in Abyssea because every spell they cast is resisted. So it's a mixed bag.

However, none of your arguments (and I mean absolutely none) have anything to do with the relevancy of old content. Adding new toys doesn't have to mean throwing away the old ones. Chains of Promathia used to be a true test of mettle, but is now soloable by the majority of jobs or low-manned by others. Making an MMO into a solo experience is a bad thing. People play these games to interact, not to do everything for themselves (if you prefer that kind of content, there are twelve other Final Fantasy games for you to play), so taking away the team aspect in virtually everything only pulls away at the core of what FFXI did best, and that was community.

Dynamis is now a joke, in my opinion. Aside from the fact that relic armor is basically useless (even the stats on the upcoming Relic +2 aren't anything to sing about), the only reason to enter it is to collect currency and items for upgrading relic weapons. It serves no other real purpose, and is certainly not for the 'casual' players because you can only enter once, regardless of how much time is remaining when you exit. It's also a bother when you end up running across other parties decimating the mobs you require, since it's no longer instanced.

I love Abyssea, but that doesn't mean they had to wreck tried and tested content that's been there for ages. This isn't about making it accessible, it's about making it easy, and yes there IS a difference. Half of the old content isn't even touched these days as a result.
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#24 Dec 01 2011 at 4:05 AM Rating: Good
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
WoW is far from starved for a playerbase. They retooled the old zones because the world changed during the Deathwing event. It's kinda hard to break the world in half without any explanation of why it's like that. They improved quests for lower level players and it encouraged players who already had characters at cap to level other classes. Save for some events like AQ, you can still go back and do most low level content in WoW.

XIV is doing something similar to(read: copying) WoW in this aspect with the Umbral event. Supposedly it will have several effects on the world and explain why new mobs replace old, copy pasta gets removed ect.



No, they are far from starved for a playerbase (though they did bleed a lot of players), but they aren't fools and they know that they need new players in, not rehashing the "lvl cap raise, new raids" to keep the current player base happy. There is also a reason why Lineage 2 gone F2P with the new patch (which supposedly has the biggest revamping so far), they need new players. There is nothing to stop the bleeding, you need to get new blood in, period.
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#25 Dec 01 2011 at 5:05 AM Rating: Excellent
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Glitterhands wrote:
However, none of your arguments (and I mean absolutely none) have anything to do with the relevancy of old content. Adding new toys doesn't have to mean throwing away the old ones. Chains of Promathia used to be a true test of mettle, but is now soloable by the majority of jobs or low-manned by others.


The ability to low-man previously level capped missions doesn't ruin the content. There is nothing keeping you from completing missions at their normal caps with the same 'test of mettle' if you want it. The challenge hasn't been removed completely. It's just optional now.

Glitterhands wrote:
Dynamis is now a joke, in my opinion. Aside from the fact that relic armor is basically useless (even the stats on the upcoming Relic +2 aren't anything to sing about), the only reason to enter it is to collect currency and items for upgrading relic weapons.


You could say the exact same thing at 75 cap. Some relic was amazing, some was situational and some was worthless. It'll be the same with the upgraded pieces. That was expected and doesn't really have any effect on dynamis.

Please explain what content was wrecked because as far as I can tell, I can do 99% of the things I used to do before they were adjusted.

Edited, Dec 1st 2011 6:06am by FilthMcNasty
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#26 Dec 01 2011 at 5:57 AM Rating: Excellent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
You could say the exact same thing at 75 cap. Some relic was amazing, some was situational and some was worthless. It'll be the same with the upgraded pieces. That was expected and doesn't really have any effect on dynamis.

Please explain what content was wrecked because as far as I can tell, I can do 99% of the things I used to do before they were adjusted.


It's because people try to convince themselves that the "content has been rendered useless" when they really mean "the level cap increases has made most of the only-sidegrade gear pretty worthless now." It basically stems down to the fact that they want their items that they got 5+ years ago to still be relevant and best-in-situation over anything else that's come afterwards simply because they got lucky with the RNG and got the item they want.

It has nothing to do with the actual events; people just use it as a smokescreen in FFXI to complain about outdated gear.
#27 Dec 01 2011 at 10:12 AM Rating: Decent
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Some of us want more 'brutal' in FFXIV.

Pre Abyssea FFXI kept my attention way longer than any other game I have ever played. The time it took to do things, the teamwork needed, the difficulty, the tediousness... all played a role in feeling gratified once you accomplished your goal. Other MMO's lack that sense of accomplishment, it just doesn't take enough time and effort to get sh*t done. Insta-pop NM's just mean everyone is gonna have that great item, 15 min timer on dungeons means in a short time everyone is gonna get exactly what they want.

What is wrong with luck AND dedication being required?

I just hope FFXIV doesn't forget everything about FFXI, and leaves some stuff for players who want LONG TERM goals..
In FFXI it took some players YEARS to get what they wanted, and it felt fkn great when you finally got it.
FFXIV has the casual player base taken care of (subjective I know), but just dont forget those who DONT want it easy.

Some of the stuff in Hammet's post is what made for the great memories in FFXI.
#28 Dec 02 2011 at 2:24 AM Rating: Decent
Edited by bsphil
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
ITT: XI was ruined by allowing people to level faster, allowing more access to endgame and removing the countless hours of shouting to organize for a quest, mission or NM fight that took 5 minutes...

I don't get it. Why would you want 8 year old content to still be relevant? What is the problem with progressing so that new content takes the place of old?
The best time in XI's history for events was before the level cap, the best time in XI's history for leveling was after abyssea. Now, older events have been updated still. The changes made to Dynamis were awesome and very long overdue. But still, having as many viable options (Dynamis, Limbus, Salvage, Einherjar, xNMs...) as XI did at the 75 cap made it great. Abyssea was necessary to keep the game on life support, but it made so much content irrelevant.
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#29 Dec 02 2011 at 4:06 AM Rating: Excellent
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bsphil wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
ITT: XI was ruined by allowing people to level faster, allowing more access to endgame and removing the countless hours of shouting to organize for a quest, mission or NM fight that took 5 minutes...

I don't get it. Why would you want 8 year old content to still be relevant? What is the problem with progressing so that new content takes the place of old?
The best time in XI's history for events was before the level cap, the best time in XI's history for leveling was after abyssea. Now, older events have been updated still. The changes made to Dynamis were awesome and very long overdue. But still, having as many viable options (Dynamis, Limbus, Salvage, Einherjar, xNMs...) as XI did at the 75 cap made it great. Abyssea was necessary to keep the game on life support, but it made so much content irrelevant.


Could someone state specifically what it is that is now irrelevant? It is fair to say that the focus has shifted for a while. People have been busy leveling and collecting AF3 and JSE, but with the upcoming changes I don't see much that will be left completely in the dust. Maybe a few things, but certainly not a lot.
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#30 Dec 04 2011 at 1:59 PM Rating: Decent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
bsphil wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
ITT: XI was ruined by allowing people to level faster, allowing more access to endgame and removing the countless hours of shouting to organize for a quest, mission or NM fight that took 5 minutes...

I don't get it. Why would you want 8 year old content to still be relevant? What is the problem with progressing so that new content takes the place of old?
The best time in XI's history for events was before the level cap, the best time in XI's history for leveling was after abyssea. Now, older events have been updated still. The changes made to Dynamis were awesome and very long overdue. But still, having as many viable options (Dynamis, Limbus, Salvage, Einherjar, xNMs...) as XI did at the 75 cap made it great. Abyssea was necessary to keep the game on life support, but it made so much content irrelevant.


Could someone state specifically what it is that is now irrelevant? It is fair to say that the focus has shifted for a while. People have been busy leveling and collecting AF3 and JSE, but with the upcoming changes I don't see much that will be left completely in the dust. Maybe a few things, but certainly not a lot.

XI isn't ruined by any stretch of the means. It's alive and kicking but it is past it's prime. It isn't so much the leveling speed is too easy(though it is a very easy). It is the journey of leveling that is bypassed when you participate in abyssea pre level 75.

The option still exist to experience the whole world if one chooses. But when the option it given to bypass the whole journey. A problem arises. There is less people to group with in the traditional progression of an rpg. In typical rpgs you begin in introduction areas and gradually you progress as does your travels and the world around you expands.
Have you ever played an rpg where you play the first 10 hours and then instantly get zoomed to the last boss? Only one I can think of is Chrono Trigger but that was in a new game plus mode. This is where people who say worry about yourself get it wrong. They say bypassing content is their choice and should affect you in no way. But it does. It's the equivalent of someone using gameshark or glitches to advance in godmode. How can you play together naturally, when one player refuses to cheat and bypass content and the other says it isn't cheating, it is just skipping the stages I don't like. They won't play together most likely.

You ask why should the world content from 8 years ago still be relevant in an mmo?
That's an easy answer. New players are entering the fray. And you may start a new character to begin a new.

Imagine if there was only one entry of Super Mario. And you played it at release along with millions of others. You quit for awhile, and upon returning back. You found out worlds 2-7 were omitted. Wouldn't you be wondering, um wth happened to all the game play there in the middle? You might argue that the middle stages were boring to you anyways. But that could have been improved and enhanced versus just omitting them or giving it out like candy.

Prior to Abyssea the progression rule existed for all. Some found some loopholes via summoner burns and powerleveling. But that doesn't translate into wanting the whole journey skippable for some. It just proved that progression need to be faster than it was before. A persistent long term level cap keeps the content persistentily viable for all players. It was not mandatory to raise the level cap. Most of all that stuff could have been done within the 75 cap.

I partake in carrots on the stick if they fall in my lap while doing content. But I am not one of those guys who's driving purpose is to chase that ever elusive carrot. But ther are many, many, many who play rpgs for this as the main purpose. Prior to abyssea all the most powerful gear had a steady cap of 75. And many pieces were good in situational scenarios. There are still some uses for situational gear. But prior to abyssea, there was never a whole set of gear that perfomed better in almost every situation.

So to end this long post. What would I have done differently if I was in SE's shoes around the time abyssea came around?

-Increase the xp rate outside abyssea by another 2-3x fold for solo and 6 man parties.
-Capped abyssea at 75 to maintain world progression and sustainability.
-Added more job specific content during the level up process.
-Kept the level cap at 75 for all time and all areas.
-Introduce monsters with unique high resistances and defense unless sc/bursted with specific skills.(These would yield chain bonus 2.0)
-Never tell ps2 users to get lost but wouldn't allow that to stymie development for higher power systems.
-Go back and revise all old rewards and content buffing them.
-Continue to provide new expansions, story, and content as fast as possible for those who can access it.

I still enjoy playing XI and abyssea at high levels. But to ignore some of the problems it caused for the rest of the world. I cannot do that and be honest to myself.
#31 Dec 04 2011 at 5:15 PM Rating: Good
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sandpark wrote:
You ask why should the world content from 8 years ago still be relevant in an mmo?
That's an easy answer. New players are entering the fray. And you may start a new character to begin a new.

There isn't anything you can't do now that you could do 8 years ago when you start a new character. New players have more options than they did then with the addition of level sync, the bonus to experience points, exp rings.. ect.

sandpark wrote:
Imagine if there was only one entry of Super Mario. And you played it at release along with millions of others. You quit for awhile, and upon returning back. You found out worlds 2-7 were omitted. Wouldn't you be wondering, um wth happened to all the game play there in the middle?

SE hasn't omitted anything in XI. That content HAS NOT GONE ANYWHERE! I don't understand why this doesn't register with people.


The majority of people quit because they were bored and there was nothing else to do. Keeping the cap at 75 would have continued this trend. PS2 will always be a roadblock for XI. The only way to avoid this would have been to separate servers. Didn't happen then, won't happen now and as you can see with XIV, it won't happen then either. SE is cheap.

sandpark wrote:
I still enjoy playing XI and abyssea at high levels. But to ignore some of the problems it caused for the rest of the world. I cannot do that and be honest to myself.


What problems did it cause for you specifically? What is it that you were able to do before abyssea came along that you cannot do now? Still waiting for someone to answer the questions with a response that backs up the 'my whole world was destroyed' sentiment they carry.


Edited, Dec 4th 2011 6:15pm by FilthMcNasty
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#32 Dec 04 2011 at 7:18 PM Rating: Excellent
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305 posts
Lordofthedisc wrote:
Some of us want more 'brutal' in FFXIV.

Pre Abyssea FFXI kept my attention way longer than any other game I have ever played. The time it took to do things, the teamwork needed, the difficulty, the tediousness... all played a role in feeling gratified once you accomplished your goal. Other MMO's lack that sense of accomplishment, it just doesn't take enough time and effort to get sh*t done. Insta-pop NM's just mean everyone is gonna have that great item, 15 min timer on dungeons means in a short time everyone is gonna get exactly what they want.

What is wrong with luck AND dedication being required?



You can tune things such that not everyone is going to get the great item (as in they wipe to the encounter or just get unlucky with RNG) but everyone can at least try the encounter (as in they don't have to spend a large amount of time doing time sink activities).
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#33 Dec 05 2011 at 8:14 AM Rating: Default
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FilthMcNasty wrote:

There isn't anything you can't do now that you could do 8 years ago when you start a new character. New players have more options than they did then with the addition of level sync, the bonus to experience points, exp rings.. ect.

There weren't any options omitted technically. But because faster options exist to bypass all this process. The majority of people ignore the introductory-medium levels contents and worlds. Since XI is not a single player mmo soley. Those levels might as well have been omitted. This guy likes to eat a variety of fast food at mcdonalds. During his meal every day for 8 years. The resturant is jam packed with people eating the same food. Then one day the resturant starts serving instant food. And since it's instant. The majority of people don't even eat at the restuarant anymore. Sure they still serve fast food. But you don't have as many people to socialize with over you coffee or whatever.

Filthmcnasty wrote:

SE hasn't omitted anything in XI. That content HAS NOT GONE ANYWHERE! I don't understand why this doesn't register with people.


The majority of people quit because they were bored and there was nothing else to do. Keeping the cap at 75 would have continued this trend. PS2 will always be a roadblock for XI. The only way to avoid this would have been to separate servers. Didn't happen then, won't happen now and as you can see with XIV, it won't happen then either. SE is cheap.

See above about the omitting issue. As I said 75 had nothing to do with people being bored. Any content added could have been added to the 75 cap. Don't need seperate servers. Just offer a system specific patch. Where that patch only provides content to certain systems.

Filthmcnasty wrote:

What problems did it cause for you specifically? What is it that you were able to do before abyssea came along that you cannot do now? Still waiting for someone to answer the questions with a response that backs up the 'my whole world was destroyed' sentiment they carry.
It didn't destroy the old content. But it may as well have as I said in my other remarks. Even if you are the explorer person who doesn't care about perks. You still want most areas to offer some kind of challenge. As a 95 mostly all but abyssea and voidwatch is a walk in the park. If they had added a bunch of new zones and content
to fill that void of all the areas they made easy. I would have no complaint about world shrinkage.
#34 Dec 05 2011 at 11:42 AM Rating: Good
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sandpark wrote:
This guy likes to eat a variety of fast food at mcdonalds. During his meal every day for 8 years. The resturant is jam packed with people eating the same food. Then one day the resturant starts serving instant food. And since it's instant. The majority of people don't even eat at the restuarant anymore. Sure they still serve fast food. But you don't have as many people to socialize with over you coffee or whatever.


1.) Nobody goes to a McDonald's to socialize, they go there to contemplate their 79 cent lives in thin greasy, bags.
2.) I don't think anybody has lived long enough to eat exclusively at McDonand's for eight years straight.
3.) We're supposed to feel bad that McDonald's has fewer people in it?
4.) We're calling McDonand's a restaurant?
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#35 Dec 05 2011 at 12:37 PM Rating: Default
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KaneKitty wrote:
sandpark wrote:
This guy likes to eat a variety of fast food at mcdonalds. During his meal every day for 8 years. The resturant is jam packed with people eating the same food. Then one day the resturant starts serving instant food. And since it's instant. The majority of people don't even eat at the restuarant anymore. Sure they still serve fast food. But you don't have as many people to socialize with over you coffee or whatever.


1.) Nobody goes to a McDonald's to socialize, they go there to contemplate their 79 cent lives in thin greasy, bags.
2.) I don't think anybody has lived long enough to eat exclusively at McDonand's for eight years straight.
3.) We're supposed to feel bad that McDonald's has fewer people in it?
4.) We're calling McDonand's a restaurant?

So you never see people drinking coffee at tables conversating? I do this often and always meet new people. Nobody plays XI eight years straight and nothing else either. Of course you want to see the places you love thriving with people and interaction. Hence, all the threads about XIV and players wanting more people to play with.
Mcdonalds is a resturant. I never called it a four star resturant only a resturant.
#36 Dec 05 2011 at 2:57 PM Rating: Excellent
Edited by bsphil
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
SE hasn't omitted anything in XI. That content HAS NOT GONE ANYWHERE! I don't understand why this doesn't register with people.
Because it's not about content from being deleted or removed from the game, it's about content being invalidated or made worthless.
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#37 Dec 05 2011 at 3:06 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
So you never see people drinking coffee at tables conversating? I do this often and always meet new people. Nobody plays XI eight years straight and nothing else either. Of course you want to see the places you love thriving with people and interaction. Hence, all the threads about XIV and players wanting more people to play with.
Mcdonalds is a resturant. I never called it a four star resturant only a resturant.


Actually, I don't. Sure there are some people there with their friends, like this pack of old guys that always went to the place to have their senior citizen discount cup o' joe, but certainly not a bunch of strangers shouting for a PUG to fight the evil NM FryMaster.

Your analogy might have been better if it was an actual social setting such as a bar, but even then, it's pretty weak. The game bled subs because people got bored of NOT having new content (and I mean real, genuine new content and new experiences\true updates to the game), not because Abyssea made old content irrelevant. That's why there's no one around anymore. You can only do the same old stuff for so long before getting completely burned out, and for a lot of us, that's what happened.

I left too, but I don't irrationally blame abyssea. It was a good idea realized too late and introduced with too little content, instead choosing to catapult players through level cap increases that really should have been staggered a lot more (and possibly introduced with expansions like every other game does it).

They have great ideas for this game, but it's just too late.

Edited, Dec 5th 2011 4:06pm by Torrence
#38 Dec 05 2011 at 3:41 PM Rating: Good
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Not even sure if it's relevant, I'm posting from my phone so I don't even know if this is NSFW...

(So I won't hot link it)

But in the spirit of the title of this thread...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AofUISjbDcU

*EDIT* Should be safe, but I couldn't be bothered watching it. The comments are definately NSFW. (Typical Youtube racism)

Edited, Dec 5th 2011 10:02pm by Perrin
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#39 Dec 05 2011 at 4:07 PM Rating: Default
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Torrence wrote:
Quote:
So you never see people drinking coffee at tables conversating? I do this often and always meet new people. Nobody plays XI eight years straight and nothing else either. Of course you want to see the places you love thriving with people and interaction. Hence, all the threads about XIV and players wanting more people to play with.
Mcdonalds is a resturant. I never called it a four star resturant only a resturant.


Actually, I don't. Sure there are some people there with their friends, like this pack of old guys that always went to the place to have their senior citizen discount cup o' joe, but certainly not a bunch of strangers shouting for a PUG to fight the evil NM FryMaster.

Your analogy might have been better if it was an actual social setting such as a bar, but even then, it's pretty weak. The game bled subs because people got bored of NOT having new content (and I mean real, genuine new content and new experiences\true updates to the game), not because Abyssea made old content irrelevant. That's why there's no one around anymore. You can only do the same old stuff for so long before getting completely burned out, and for a lot of us, that's what happened.

I left too, but I don't irrationally blame abyssea. It was a good idea realized too late and introduced with too little content, instead choosing to catapult players through level cap increases that really should have been staggered a lot more (and possibly introduced with expansions like every other game does it).

They have great ideas for this game, but it's just too late.

Edited, Dec 5th 2011 4:06pm by Torrence

I'm going way off tangent now. But I'm in my 20's and yes there are alot of old folks getting their cheap jo fix. I always try to be friendly with anyone there old or young and strike up conversation. I never press the conversation though if I notice someone seems off put or uninterested in conversation. I love hearing stories from old folks. They have some really fascinating tales. You are right in some ways on why people left. But then again I am too. Lots of people left because all focus congested to one area in a game full of hundreds of areas. The grind was so immense before then for casuals. I know some people that played 2 years and only got one 75 job when they would have liked a few more 75s.
#40 Dec 05 2011 at 5:13 PM Rating: Decent
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4,153 posts
bsphil wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
SE hasn't omitted anything in XI. That content HAS NOT GONE ANYWHERE! I don't understand why this doesn't register with people.
Because it's not about content from being deleted or removed from the game, it's about content being invalidated or made worthless.


I don't see it. Again, some things have been considered 'worthless' because the rewards were obsoleted by level increase, but there are many things that will have their value restored once the final cap hits. Look at all the elements of XI piece by piece and it's much clearer...

Leveling:
Soloing is much more accessible at every level. Low-man and traditional groups with the combination of level sync and FoV/GoV has opened up options for camps that were never considered before. Abyssea will still take people to cap if you prefer larger groups.

Story/Mission content:
Story was probably the main draw for XI and it's still intact.

RotZ is still needed for several things including Sky access for abjurations/augments and Dynamis access. CoP, arguably the best storyline in XI, is now more accessible with the uncapping of levels.

ToaU saw probably the best increase of objective based content with Assaults, Salvage, Einherjar and Nyzul. All of those are still viable content and most if not all of them will be expanded. lolbesieged

WotG always sucked, but at least the rewards will always be useful.

Events:
Dynamis has been restored to glory. Solo, low-man or groups are all viable and the coming changes to AF2 items are going to make this a popular event again. Relics are in demand again with the new WS and the buff they get from magian trials. Also a good way to get some decent xp and make some money.

Sky provides some pieces of gear that are still relevant and also abjurations for gear and augments.

Sea is still worth a visit for torques. Obis are still the top gear choice during weather and gorgets will be more useful than ever with the upcoming WS additions.

MMM kinda got left behind, but the upcoming dungeon crawl system might end up being the shasta vista aloha version of this. Either way, this is something that could be upgraded and is still viable for xp with level sync.

Salvage has always suffered from RNG problems, but they eased up on requirements and Mythics are amazing weapons if you need a reason to get back in for the long term. If not, you can always make a few bucks if you have an hour to spare.

Nyzul is adding floors and probably new gear and goodies to go along with them.

Einherjar is still viable for abjuration gear or scraps for augments. I can't remember if the gear here can be augmented, but they could still go that route and/or they could add chambers to it.

BC fights are always being added, new NMs, voidwatch, Walk of Echoes... I could go on and on.

tl;dr
Why anyone thought that increasing the cap by 25 levels wouldn't have an effect on gear or balance is beyond me. I don't see the logic in trying to adjust content every few months to keep it current with a level cap that is just going to change a few months later. XI, even it it's old age, looks more promising to me than XIV does sadly. Just my honest, objective opinion.

Edited, Dec 5th 2011 6:15pm by FilthMcNasty
____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#41 Dec 06 2011 at 6:21 PM Rating: Decent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
bsphil wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
SE hasn't omitted anything in XI. That content HAS NOT GONE ANYWHERE! I don't understand why this doesn't register with people.
Because it's not about content from being deleted or removed from the game, it's about content being invalidated or made worthless.


I don't see it. Again, some things have been considered 'worthless' because the rewards were obsoleted by level increase, but there are many things that will have their value restored once the final cap hits. Look at all the elements of XI piece by piece and it's much clearer...

Leveling:
Soloing is much more accessible at every level. Low-man and traditional groups with the combination of level sync and FoV/GoV has opened up options for camps that were never considered before. Abyssea will still take people to cap if you prefer larger groups.

Story/Mission content:
Story was probably the main draw for XI and it's still intact.

RotZ is still needed for several things including Sky access for abjurations/augments and Dynamis access. CoP, arguably the best storyline in XI, is now more accessible with the uncapping of levels.

ToaU saw probably the best increase of objective based content with Assaults, Salvage, Einherjar and Nyzul. All of those are still viable content and most if not all of them will be expanded. lolbesieged

WotG always sucked, but at least the rewards will always be useful.

Events:
Dynamis has been restored to glory. Solo, low-man or groups are all viable and the coming changes to AF2 items are going to make this a popular event again. Relics are in demand again with the new WS and the buff they get from magian trials. Also a good way to get some decent xp and make some money.

Sky provides some pieces of gear that are still relevant and also abjurations for gear and augments.

Sea is still worth a visit for torques. Obis are still the top gear choice during weather and gorgets will be more useful than ever with the upcoming WS additions.

MMM kinda got left behind, but the upcoming dungeon crawl system might end up being the shasta vista aloha version of this. Either way, this is something that could be upgraded and is still viable for xp with level sync.

Salvage has always suffered from RNG problems, but they eased up on requirements and Mythics are amazing weapons if you need a reason to get back in for the long term. If not, you can always make a few bucks if you have an hour to spare.

Nyzul is adding floors and probably new gear and goodies to go along with them.

Einherjar is still viable for abjuration gear or scraps for augments. I can't remember if the gear here can be augmented, but they could still go that route and/or they could add chambers to it.

BC fights are always being added, new NMs, voidwatch, Walk of Echoes... I could go on and on.

tl;dr
Why anyone thought that increasing the cap by 25 levels wouldn't have an effect on gear or balance is beyond me. I don't see the logic in trying to adjust content every few months to keep it current with a level cap that is just going to change a few months later. XI, even it it's old age, looks more promising to me than XIV does sadly. Just my honest, objective opinion.

Edited, Dec 5th 2011 6:15pm by FilthMcNasty


You can say whatever you want, but the fact that a new player steps out of the town gate for the very first time and see no other people there, or having to travel like 6-7 maps on foot and only ever saw other players once or twice when they are high level camping whatever isn't good for the game. And I don't mean there isn't anyone grinding lower level, I saw a bunch of people in town with low level jobs, but they are going to do Abyssea which means nuts to new players. The server I played on was not empty either, as whatever command to show how many players online whatever-I-forgot showed that there are more than 2,000 players currently online. I beg your pardon that Abyssea is new player friendly, it is old player starting anew friendly.

FYI that was my first time playing FFXI.

Edited, Dec 6th 2011 7:23pm by Khornette
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#42 Dec 06 2011 at 9:37 PM Rating: Good
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Khornette wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
bsphil wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
SE hasn't omitted anything in XI. That content HAS NOT GONE ANYWHERE! I don't understand why this doesn't register with people.
Because it's not about content from being deleted or removed from the game, it's about content being invalidated or made worthless.


I don't see it. Again, some things have been considered 'worthless' because the rewards were obsoleted by level increase, but there are many things that will have their value restored once the final cap hits. Look at all the elements of XI piece by piece and it's much clearer...

Leveling:
Soloing is much more accessible at every level. Low-man and traditional groups with the combination of level sync and FoV/GoV has opened up options for camps that were never considered before. Abyssea will still take people to cap if you prefer larger groups.

Story/Mission content:
Story was probably the main draw for XI and it's still intact.

RotZ is still needed for several things including Sky access for abjurations/augments and Dynamis access. CoP, arguably the best storyline in XI, is now more accessible with the uncapping of levels.

ToaU saw probably the best increase of objective based content with Assaults, Salvage, Einherjar and Nyzul. All of those are still viable content and most if not all of them will be expanded. lolbesieged

WotG always sucked, but at least the rewards will always be useful.

Events:
Dynamis has been restored to glory. Solo, low-man or groups are all viable and the coming changes to AF2 items are going to make this a popular event again. Relics are in demand again with the new WS and the buff they get from magian trials. Also a good way to get some decent xp and make some money.

Sky provides some pieces of gear that are still relevant and also abjurations for gear and augments.

Sea is still worth a visit for torques. Obis are still the top gear choice during weather and gorgets will be more useful than ever with the upcoming WS additions.

MMM kinda got left behind, but the upcoming dungeon crawl system might end up being the shasta vista aloha version of this. Either way, this is something that could be upgraded and is still viable for xp with level sync.

Salvage has always suffered from RNG problems, but they eased up on requirements and Mythics are amazing weapons if you need a reason to get back in for the long term. If not, you can always make a few bucks if you have an hour to spare.

Nyzul is adding floors and probably new gear and goodies to go along with them.

Einherjar is still viable for abjuration gear or scraps for augments. I can't remember if the gear here can be augmented, but they could still go that route and/or they could add chambers to it.

BC fights are always being added, new NMs, voidwatch, Walk of Echoes... I could go on and on.

tl;dr
Why anyone thought that increasing the cap by 25 levels wouldn't have an effect on gear or balance is beyond me. I don't see the logic in trying to adjust content every few months to keep it current with a level cap that is just going to change a few months later. XI, even it it's old age, looks more promising to me than XIV does sadly. Just my honest, objective opinion.

Edited, Dec 5th 2011 6:15pm by FilthMcNasty


You can say whatever you want, but the fact that a new player steps out of the town gate for the very first time and see no other people there, or having to travel like 6-7 maps on foot and only ever saw other players once or twice when they are high level camping whatever isn't good for the game.


Protip: People have always congregated in cities in XI. People to see, goods to buy and conversation to be had if you are interested. That's how it's always been, not just in XI, but in about every other MMO I've ever played.

What new player would expect the training area of a nearly decade old game to be bustling with activity? New players log in and want to get their feet wet, they don't walk outside the gate and start counting heads as if it will be a measure of the game's potential. No one cares. If anything, I'd be happy as a new player to have a camp all to myself. No one to compete with and nobody to /point and /laugh when I somehow manage to train half the zone to the city gates.

Khornette wrote:
I saw a bunch of people in town with low level jobs, but they are going to do Abyssea which means nuts to new players.

It only means nuts to you if you aren't bright enough to figure out what a FoV/GoV book does. No new player wants to go sit in abyssea contributing absolutely nothing even if they did meet the requirements to enter. New players are out learning how the battle system works, discovering areas that are new to them and testing their limits to get a better understanding of the game. That's what most of them do anyway. Again, no one cares.

Khornette wrote:
I beg your pardon that Abyssea is new player friendly, it is old player starting anew friendly.

I know reading comprehension isn't your strong point from other times you've misquoted or paraphrased me incorrectly, but I do have faith that even you can grasp this. Try to remain focused for just long enough to grasp this...

This argument is about old content, not abyssea. Capeesh? Good. Lets move forward.

Old content(not abyssea) is still at least as new player friendly as it ever was, if not more so. Old content is also being re-tooled beyond the final level cap to remain relevant to old players as well. See? That wasn't so hard, now was it?






____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#43 Dec 06 2011 at 10:57 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
***
1,948 posts
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Khornette wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
bsphil wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
SE hasn't omitted anything in XI. That content HAS NOT GONE ANYWHERE! I don't understand why this doesn't register with people.
Because it's not about content from being deleted or removed from the game, it's about content being invalidated or made worthless.


I don't see it. Again, some things have been considered 'worthless' because the rewards were obsoleted by level increase, but there are many things that will have their value restored once the final cap hits. Look at all the elements of XI piece by piece and it's much clearer...

Leveling:
Soloing is much more accessible at every level. Low-man and traditional groups with the combination of level sync and FoV/GoV has opened up options for camps that were never considered before. Abyssea will still take people to cap if you prefer larger groups.

Story/Mission content:
Story was probably the main draw for XI and it's still intact.

RotZ is still needed for several things including Sky access for abjurations/augments and Dynamis access. CoP, arguably the best storyline in XI, is now more accessible with the uncapping of levels.

ToaU saw probably the best increase of objective based content with Assaults, Salvage, Einherjar and Nyzul. All of those are still viable content and most if not all of them will be expanded. lolbesieged

WotG always sucked, but at least the rewards will always be useful.

Events:
Dynamis has been restored to glory. Solo, low-man or groups are all viable and the coming changes to AF2 items are going to make this a popular event again. Relics are in demand again with the new WS and the buff they get from magian trials. Also a good way to get some decent xp and make some money.

Sky provides some pieces of gear that are still relevant and also abjurations for gear and augments.

Sea is still worth a visit for torques. Obis are still the top gear choice during weather and gorgets will be more useful than ever with the upcoming WS additions.

MMM kinda got left behind, but the upcoming dungeon crawl system might end up being the shasta vista aloha version of this. Either way, this is something that could be upgraded and is still viable for xp with level sync.

Salvage has always suffered from RNG problems, but they eased up on requirements and Mythics are amazing weapons if you need a reason to get back in for the long term. If not, you can always make a few bucks if you have an hour to spare.

Nyzul is adding floors and probably new gear and goodies to go along with them.

Einherjar is still viable for abjuration gear or scraps for augments. I can't remember if the gear here can be augmented, but they could still go that route and/or they could add chambers to it.

BC fights are always being added, new NMs, voidwatch, Walk of Echoes... I could go on and on.

tl;dr
Why anyone thought that increasing the cap by 25 levels wouldn't have an effect on gear or balance is beyond me. I don't see the logic in trying to adjust content every few months to keep it current with a level cap that is just going to change a few months later. XI, even it it's old age, looks more promising to me than XIV does sadly. Just my honest, objective opinion.

Edited, Dec 5th 2011 6:15pm by FilthMcNasty


You can say whatever you want, but the fact that a new player steps out of the town gate for the very first time and see no other people there, or having to travel like 6-7 maps on foot and only ever saw other players once or twice when they are high level camping whatever isn't good for the game.


Protip: People have always congregated in cities in XI. People to see, goods to buy and conversation to be had if you are interested. That's how it's always been, not just in XI, but in about every other MMO I've ever played.

What new player would expect the training area of a nearly decade old game to be bustling with activity? New players log in and want to get their feet wet, they don't walk outside the gate and start counting heads as if it will be a measure of the game's potential. No one cares. If anything, I'd be happy as a new player to have a camp all to myself. No one to compete with and nobody to /point and /laugh when I somehow manage to train half the zone to the city gates.

Khornette wrote:
I saw a bunch of people in town with low level jobs, but they are going to do Abyssea which means nuts to new players.

It only means nuts to you if you aren't bright enough to figure out what a FoV/GoV book does. No new player wants to go sit in abyssea contributing absolutely nothing even if they did meet the requirements to enter. New players are out learning how the battle system works, discovering areas that are new to them and testing their limits to get a better understanding of the game. That's what most of them do anyway. Again, no one cares.

Khornette wrote:
I beg your pardon that Abyssea is new player friendly, it is old player starting anew friendly.

I know reading comprehension isn't your strong point from other times you've misquoted or paraphrased me incorrectly, but I do have faith that even you can grasp this. Try to remain focused for just long enough to grasp this...

This argument is about old content, not abyssea. Capeesh? Good. Lets move forward.

Old content(not abyssea) is still at least as new player friendly as it ever was, if not more so. Old content is also being re-tooled beyond the final level cap to remain relevant to old players as well. See? That wasn't so hard, now was it?








I don't get you at all, new players are incredibly turned off when they are thrown into a barren world with barely anyone else around in an MMORPG, not to mention that the beginning cities are also very much empty. To make it worse, it is not because the player base are not leveling at low level, it is because people are focusing on leveling low levels in certain contents that new players may not know/hear/does not really care about. I do not think soloing all my way in a game that is purposely built to support party play (since even after these so called tweak soloing is still much longer/harder than other MMORPGs in the market)is good. I would rather play some offline RPG or simply jumping off to other MMORPG. The point here is that because old content is perceived as useless to new players (and part of old players base), the game is perceived as getting worse and worse. I get that you do not care about new players because you like the change, but new players don't care about you nor the changes.

You are kidding yourself if you think the changes are good. If this thread is any indication, the only people ever defending the changes are the old players, with the people who dislike the changes are both old and new players. What does it mean? It means that the game will be bleeding current player base while getting no new blood in.

Also to answer your question why lvl 99 cap raised mean nothing to new players, is because new players care about the enjoyment they get out of gaming first before they get to care about the cap that they haven't hit yet. If people care about the cap that much, they would all flocking to games with lvl 999 cap for once. Vertical progression is good, but not enough. Vertical + horizontal progression is better. If people don't like a particular game in the first place because of the features, they will not like it any better if the game keeps expanding feature they don't like. Instead, adding features they might like, which is horizontal progression. Why do you think WoW is adding a Neutral Panda race and pet battle?

Edited, Dec 7th 2011 12:14am by Khornette
____________________________




#44 Dec 07 2011 at 1:37 AM Rating: Good
***
3,530 posts
Khornette wrote:
Why do you think WoW is adding a Neutral Panda race and pet battle?


Don't take the bait, Kane, don't take the bait!
____________________________
"... he called to himself a wizard, named Gallery, hoping by this means to escape the paying of the fifteen hundred crowns..." (Machen 15)

"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#45 Dec 07 2011 at 2:07 AM Rating: Good
****
4,153 posts
Khornette wrote:
I don't get you at all, new players are incredibly turned off when they are thrown into a barren world with barely anyone else around in an MMORPG, not to mention that the beginning cities are also very much empty.


Like I said, people tend to gather in a main city, a central hub if you will, and in the case of XI it just so happens to be Jeuno. It had moved to Tav Safehold for a while, then to Whitegate but now it's J-town again. In WoW, most of the horde gathers in Org. It had moved to Shattrath City, then to Dalaran but now it's Org again. Same ****.

Khornette wrote:
I do not think soloing all my way in a game that is purposely built to support party play (since even after these so called tweak soloing is still much longer/harder than other MMORPGs in the market)is good.

The game still supports party play. You don't have to solo everything unless it's hard for you to play nice with other people. Starting at level 1 you can form an entire alliance if you wanted to and level up to the cap. All it requires is basic communication skills and knowledge of how to use the /search feature.

Khornette wrote:
Vertical progression is good, but not enough. Vertical + horizontal progression is better.

You already quoted me, but you didn't read it. It's plain as day in the tl;dr section even...
FilthMcNasty wrote:
I don't see the logic in trying to adjust content every few months to keep it current with a level cap that is just going to change a few months later.

After keeping the cap at 75 for how many years, XI grew by 33% in about 18 months. 'Horizontal progression' doesn't make sense when you expand vertically that quickly, nor does it work well. I see your point, but it's invalid. Wait until the cap stabilizes and then tweak old content and add new.

You don't buy smaller clothing before you go on a diet because you expect to lose a few inches. You get a belt and after you've shed the weight, then you go shopping. Common sense.
____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#46 Dec 07 2011 at 2:08 AM Rating: Good
****
4,153 posts
KaneKitty wrote:
Khornette wrote:
Why do you think WoW is adding a Neutral Panda race and pet battle?


Don't take the bait, Kane, don't take the bait!


I haven't even given it any thought really, but the first thing that came to mind was 'Because they've run out of ideas?'
____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
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