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Billing Prices and start date revealedFollow

#52 Dec 06 2011 at 8:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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TwiddleDee wrote:
So 8$ a month.... more then fair. Simply logging and testing for a week after the major patches between now and 2.0 covers the cost. This is just me, but i actually like this approach.

As for the character fee makes no difference really XI had it, XIV has it no big problem. Most MMO's require you to do 1 job/class per character so it's part of the games longevity to make you create 10 chars for the 10 jobs/classes. There's still a "character fee" it just encompasses all the jobs/classes you make. In SE's case all jobs/classes can be covered by one character stream lining things.

Maybe this will show it better then i can explain it.

WoW char fee covers:
Char 1 - Job A
Char 2 - Job B
.
.
Char 9 - Job J

XI/XIV char fee covers:
Char 1 - Job A,B,C,D,E,F,G,H,I,J


I've seen this argument all the time in connection to FFXI and FFXIV, and it's a total non-sequitur.

WoW for example has a limit of 10 characters per server and 50 characters per account - and had those limits even before the game had 10 classes.

Rift, as another data point, has 4 "callings", but a limit of 6 characters per server (the account limit is apparently either unknown/unrevealed or non-existent).

EQ2 has 24 classes, but by default only gives, depending on account type, 2 to 12 character slots per account (additional slots can be purchased).

Champions Online currently has 19 "classes" (archetypes), of which only 8 are available to non-paying players, who are given only two character slots (though extra character classes can be purchased, as can the remaining archetypes). Subscribers have access to freeform characters, who can take any powers in the game and can change powers at any time - and can simulate any of the archetypes, with additional powers and flexibility; in other words, 1 freeform character is all you need. Yet Subscribers get 8 character slots by default, with an extra one granted every time a character hits the level cap (on top of being able to buy new slots).

In fact, as a general rule, for most MMOs there is simply no correlation between the number of character slots needed to "experience everything" and the number of slots actually given to the player. And as another general rule, those MMOs that charge for extra character slots charge a one-time fee to unlock the slot, not an ongoing fee billed every month.

People who create alts often do it because they like creating alts, not because of an underlying urge to "experience everything the game has to offer" - especially in games with more robust character customization options.
#53 Dec 06 2011 at 9:23 PM Rating: Decent
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"People who create alts often do it because they like creating alts, not because of an underlying urge to "experience everything the game has to offer" - especially in games with more robust character customization options."

I myself am an altoholic, I do it mostly because I like playing other races, change up my character every once in a while. Seeing the same thing over, and over, and over again gets old after a while.
#54 Dec 07 2011 at 12:17 AM Rating: Good
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You would think they would hold off till 2.0 before getting a subscription fee in there
#55 Dec 07 2011 at 12:23 AM Rating: Decent
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Xerino wrote:
You would think they would hold off till 2.0 before getting a subscription fee in there


If they were to hold off until 2.0, then there wouldn't be a 2.0. To financially justify keeping the game around, they have to do this.
#56 Dec 07 2011 at 1:34 AM Rating: Excellent
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nekroturkey wrote:
If they were to hold off until 2.0, then there wouldn't be a 2.0. To financially justify keeping the game around, they have to do this.


The discounted fees of a relative handful of players is supposed to financially justify re-releasing the game? I sure hope it's not also the sole source of funding for it, too!
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"... he called to himself a wizard, named Gallery, hoping by this means to escape the paying of the fifteen hundred crowns..." (Machen 15)

"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#57 Dec 07 2011 at 2:08 AM Rating: Decent
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KaneKitty wrote:
The discounted fees of a relative handful of players is supposed to financially justify re-releasing the game? I sure hope it's not also the sole source of funding for it, too!


What it will justify is to keep the current service running up until 2.0. They are not obliged to do so, and to be frank, it would not make any sense either from a business standpoint.

Every single person that this change affects has had more than a year of free playtime already. And the fact is, that they wouldn't have played the game in it's current state if they did not enjoy it in any shape or form, as much as they tend to deny it (although they still can't find a good justification for playing the game so far, lol).

That said, SE has given them a free year of playtime, and regardless of the quality of said playtime the quantity should make up for it in full as an apology for the initial blunder. Now the only thing that remains is for SE to give everyone who bought the game a free copy of version 2.0, which they are going to do.

Other than that, as I said, they are not obliged to keep the service running. And, if there are people willing to pay them to keep the service up even in the game's current state, it would be dumb to close the shop. If they won't get any revenue to cover the expenses, though, that is exactly what would happen. SE is not a charity organization.
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#58 Dec 07 2011 at 2:40 AM Rating: Good
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KaneKitty wrote:
nekroturkey wrote:
If they were to hold off until 2.0, then there wouldn't be a 2.0. To financially justify keeping the game around, they have to do this.


The discounted fees of a relative handful of players is supposed to financially justify re-releasing the game? I sure hope it's not also the sole source of funding for it, too!


It's supposed to financially justify the costs involved in both updating and keeping the game running until 2.0. Yoshida said it himself...

"As producer, I needed to make the call to commence billing due to the costs involved in creating and running the game: the hard-working development and community teams, round-the-clock GM service, and other support staff."

Do you really think they could go another year like this? They probably could, but they wouldn't. Like the guy above me said, they aren't a charity.
#59 Dec 07 2011 at 11:01 AM Rating: Good
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nekroturkey wrote:
It's supposed to financially justify the costs involved in both updating and keeping the game running until 2.0. Yoshida said it himself...

"As producer, I needed to make the call to commence billing due to the costs involved in creating and running the game: the hard-working development and community teams, round-the-clock GM service, and other support staff."


What happened to 'We will repair XIV at any cost. We don't answer to our shareholders.'?

Don't get me wrong, Yoshi has had some good ideas, but chasing off prospective subs is never a good idea. I understand that they need to recover costs, but charging people for something that isn't worth paying for is not the way to do it. Fix the **** thing first. The money you would make trying to cover costs is easily matched or overcome by the number of future players you chased away. Really bad idea.
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HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#60 Dec 07 2011 at 11:21 AM Rating: Decent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
....but charging people for something that isn't worth paying for is not the way to do it.


Not worth according to who? You? I don't know about the over all statistics, but from what i have gathered from my 4 LS's (around 150 people), 25ish are considering leaving do to subscriptions. The Zam pole shows only 45% from the people who voted will stay, while in reality it's a lot closer to x1.75 that number. My server is average population and only 6 people from it use the forums here. Stay or not is your own personal choice, i don't see the reason for mud slinging a product you have no apparent interest in.
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#61 Dec 07 2011 at 11:58 AM Rating: Excellent
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TwiddleDee wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
....but charging people for something that isn't worth paying for is not the way to do it.


Not worth according to who?


9 out of 10 people who purchased this game left while it was free. They haven't come back other than to check updates and find out that it still isn't something they would enjoy. If the population hasn't started to come back up through 1.19 then why would anyone believe that 1.2 will change that overnight? I'm not a mudslinger, I'm being realistic.

Tell you what... I'll come back here to apologize after 1.2 hits, the fees are instated and the population rises.


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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#62 Dec 07 2011 at 12:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
TwiddleDee wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
....but charging people for something that isn't worth paying for is not the way to do it.


Not worth according to who?


9 out of 10 people who purchased this game left while it was free. They haven't come back other than to check updates and find out that it still isn't something they would enjoy. If the population hasn't started to come back up through 1.19 then why would anyone believe that 1.2 will change that overnight? I'm not a mudslinger, I'm being realistic.

Tell you what... I'll come back here to apologize after 1.2 hits, the fees are instated and the population rises.





Not to be a Debbie Downer, but basically, I agree with everything here. If people won't play free, why the **** would they play when they have to pay?
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#63 Dec 07 2011 at 12:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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TwiddleDee wrote:
I don't know about the over all statistics, but from what i have gathered from my 4 LS's (around 150 people), 25ish are considering leaving do to subscriptions. The Zam pole shows only 45% from the people who voted will stay, while in reality it's a lot closer to x1.75 that number.


I don't see why your casual survey of 4 linkshells counts as "reality" while a ~400 person cross-linkshell, cross-server survey can be essentially disregarded. Ultimately, about half will probably stay and about half will probably leave; a number of months from now, a few more will probably come back, since they were "on the fence" already. Whether the population will ever exceed 50,000 players, well, that's another matter...
____________________________
"... he called to himself a wizard, named Gallery, hoping by this means to escape the paying of the fifteen hundred crowns..." (Machen 15)

"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#64 Dec 07 2011 at 3:28 PM Rating: Good
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2,202 posts
TwiddleDee wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
....but charging people for something that isn't worth paying for is not the way to do it.


Not worth according to who? You? I don't know about the over all statistics, but from what i have gathered from my 4 LS's (around 150 people), 25ish are considering leaving do to subscriptions. The Zam pole shows only 45% from the people who voted will stay, while in reality it's a lot closer to x1.75 that number. My server is average population and only 6 people from it use the forums here. Stay or not is your own personal choice, i don't see the reason for mud slinging a product you have no apparent interest in.


According to the 750,000 players that left this game and have never come Back. Why must white knights talk and act like this game is on the rise to success when in fact it is still at the same spot from one entire year ago :/ And it will not move from there, until an entire year later, and even then, is still a big "Maybe!" The fact of the meter is that for the vast majority of people who purchased the game, a fee is just out of the question, even with the people that have stayed for an entire year there is debate, and probably half(I'm more inclined to say 30-35%) of the entire player base that currently play's will not sub for it.

Oh and nobody is mud slinging anybody, they are called facts, but i understand the FFXIV fan base do hate those :/
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#65 Dec 07 2011 at 4:26 PM Rating: Default
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hexaemeron wrote:
Not to be a Debbie Downer, but basically, I agree with everything here. If people won't play free, why the **** would they play when they have to pay?


The funny thing about money... I forget what the product was, but they couldn't give it away for free... some genius had the idea of selling it for $0.99 or something silly, it sold like hotcakes. I wish I could remember the product because it's a huge seller these days, but it was something I saw on some silly show whilst waiting for the show I actually wanted to watch to come on... IIRC the product was the reason that most items don't end in an even price in the US because the one cent diffrence made it a deal.
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#66 Dec 07 2011 at 6:38 PM Rating: Excellent
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Perrin, ****** Superhero wrote:
hexaemeron wrote:
Not to be a Debbie Downer, but basically, I agree with everything here. If people won't play free, why the **** would they play when they have to pay?


The funny thing about money... I forget what the product was, but they couldn't give it away for free... some genius had the idea of selling it for $0.99 or something silly, it sold like hotcakes. I wish I could remember the product because it's a huge seller these days, but it was something I saw on some silly show whilst waiting for the show I actually wanted to watch to come on... IIRC the product was the reason that most items don't end in an even price in the US because the one cent diffrence made it a deal.


Yet a $1.99 indie game is pirated by the thousands...
____________________________
"... he called to himself a wizard, named Gallery, hoping by this means to escape the paying of the fifteen hundred crowns..." (Machen 15)

"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#67 Dec 07 2011 at 7:50 PM Rating: Excellent
The way I look at it...it's about $150 more dollars. It's not gonna prevent me from buying anything. It's not gonna prevent me from paying bills. There is still stuff I can do in game that I haven't done. Jobs are about to be released. Why not pay? If 150 bucks is gonna break ya, then maybe you should be working more and playing less.

edit: I wish they gave the option to pay a year at a time so I could go ahead and fork it all over right now and be done with it.

Edited, Dec 7th 2011 8:51pm by StateAlchemist
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#68 Dec 07 2011 at 10:50 PM Rating: Excellent
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StateAlchemist of Amestris wrote:
The way I look at it...it's about $150 more dollars. It's not gonna prevent me from buying anything. It's not gonna prevent me from paying bills. There is still stuff I can do in game that I haven't done. Jobs are about to be released. Why not pay? If 150 bucks is gonna break ya, then maybe you should be working more and playing less.

edit: I wish they gave the option to pay a year at a time so I could go ahead and fork it all over right now and be done with it.

Edited, Dec 7th 2011 8:51pm by StateAlchemist


Money isn't an issue for me. Throwing good money after bad is.
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#69 Dec 08 2011 at 3:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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hexaemeron wrote:


Money isn't an issue for me. Throwing good money after bad is.


this. Not to mention that my XI sub is already almost all going to XIV. I don't feel like being double charged. If there was a combo deal I might have considered keeping the sub up in order to check out patches. No such deal seems to be in evidence.
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#70 Dec 08 2011 at 3:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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StateAlchemist of Amestris wrote:
The way I look at it...it's about $150 more dollars. It's not gonna prevent me from buying anything. It's not gonna prevent me from paying bills. There is still stuff I can do in game that I haven't done. Jobs are about to be released. Why not pay? If 150 bucks is gonna break ya, then maybe you should be working more and playing less.

Edited, Dec 7th 2011 8:51pm by StateAlchemist


That's a very unconventional position. I'm not going to go buy $150 worth of pink flamingos simply because $150 isn't going to break me, I spend money on goods and services I deem worthy of $150. Is that FFXIV? Not sure yet, ask me again a few weeks after 1.20 hits.
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#71 Dec 09 2011 at 12:42 AM Rating: Excellent
Ya, the whole breaking the bank argument is possibly the most retarded one of them all. "Oh, you don't want to play? You must be broke! Get a job!". It couldn't possibly be that some people simply aren't willing to pay for an unfinished product, or simply for something they don't enjoy on the same level as you do. Realistically if you're posting from a computer, with the internet (provided you're not mooching someone's wireless connection), you can afford FFXIV.

I'm still on the fence about paying, I've been playing a lot lately, done some raids, leveled a bit, GC quests, etc...it all gets old fast cause there's really not much to the game. When people have a **** ton of jobs at 50, and have completed every single quest this game has to offer, there's a problem. No MMO should ever have you sitting there thinking, wow, I've done everything this game has to offer. On the one hand, I'm glad they concentrated on mechanics, ui, etc, cause really it was holding the game back a lot. Now though, it's more than playable and they really need to start focusing on huge amounts of content.
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#72 Dec 09 2011 at 7:27 AM Rating: Excellent
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I still feel that turning to Pay to Play so early will be the death of FFXIV.

I would turn the game on from time to time and have some fun but there are so many simple things lacking, and SWTOR is just around the corner... I mean, SE should realize the upcoming comeition and instead of trying to make users commit to just one with a pricing scale, find a way to co-exist and hope we stay for 2.0.
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#73 Dec 09 2011 at 9:29 AM Rating: Decent
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I just find it hard to believe that people who have stuck with FFXIV for this long, while it was in this state, would refuse a year or so down the line to come back and try FFXIV 2.0. As many people have liked to point out, the game hasn't exactly been a barrel of monkeys so far, so who would put themselves through that if they weren't planning on checking out the pot of gold at the end?

Short story short: I just don't think any mass exodus (which I doubt will be quite as drastic as some people are predicting) right now will have that much of an impact come 2.0
#74 Dec 09 2011 at 10:08 AM Rating: Default
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Redyoshi wrote:
I just find it hard to believe that people who have stuck with FFXIV for this long, while it was in this state, would refuse a year or so down the line to come back and try FFXIV 2.0.


Better question is why would one be willing to toss +1 years worth of effort and accomplishment out the window over such a minute cost. I guess it's just my poor understanding of things and people i suppose, but the hole concept of "I'll stay if it's free, but paying to make it better.. forget it" just doesn't sit right with me. People pay to troll and rate down in a forum, but paying for a game everyone here whats to see succeed no mater if they are bashing or white knighting... out of the question, blasphemy.
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#75 Dec 09 2011 at 10:45 AM Rating: Excellent
TwiddleDee wrote:
Redyoshi wrote:
I just find it hard to believe that people who have stuck with FFXIV for this long, while it was in this state, would refuse a year or so down the line to come back and try FFXIV 2.0.


Better question is why would one be willing to toss +1 years worth of effort and accomplishment out the window over such a minute cost. I guess it's just my poor understanding of things and people i suppose, but the hole concept of "I'll stay if it's free, but paying to make it better.. forget it" just doesn't sit right with me. People pay to troll and rate down in a forum, but paying for a game everyone here whats to see succeed no mater if they are bashing or white knighting... out of the question, blasphemy.


The problem is, certain people who have stuck with FFXIV "this long", has been to play 1 week after an update and vanish for 2 months. There's a reason why my friends list is empty, again, and my linkshells are empty, again. As for accomplishments over a year, you can level from 1-50 in a few days now due to powerleveling and exp being stupid fast 35+. There is no sense of accomplishment in this game, you hurry to 50, roll through the few dungeons raids, finish the story and do whatever GC quests.

The only thing that keeps people coming back to certain battles is the ridiculous loot system where nothing of value drops. Even just looking at Twiddle's sig, 6 level 50's? Just a little over a year later? I know FFXI was torturous in it's beginnings with leveling, but at least that one 75 (or 50 you had depending when you started), felt good! Most people barely had a job at level cap a year in unless they were on 24/7. There were things in the way though, choco quest, limit breaks, missions, a bunch of things to hold you back. Those things that held you back, were actually fun (most of them). LB2, go fight 3 NM's in Xarcabard, very simple, but at the time required an alliance to complete, was fun as all **** though. Even advanced jobs at 30 were fun to try and complete with the Zilart pack.

Like I said in my previous post, they've concentrated on ironing out the game mechanics and such , and once they've added party search and a AH style search, it's time to concentrate on content. 2.0 is so far out that I know an expansion won't be happening soon, but XI had Zilart one year later, and CoP 2 years later. So within 2 1/2 years of a game's life span you had added immense amounts of content. XIV will have been out over 2 years with what, little battlefields added? Joy.

I know FFXI is nothing like that now, you can level in no time, and finish whatever in no time, but the game is also 10 years old. In it's first few years, I enjoyed it immensely and felt overwhelmed with what I needed to do in that game. XIV? I feel as though there just isn't much interesting content to finish. I'm still playing XIV at this point, do have a job at 50, and enjoy partying to level a whole lot more than I did XI. All this being said, the game needs more meat and potatoes to keep players around.


Edited, Dec 9th 2011 11:46am by Montsegurnephcreep
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#76 Dec 09 2011 at 11:06 AM Rating: Good
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I still log on a couple times a week and will be paying, but I agree with everything Montsegurnephcreep says above...

I am trying to be patient. I know they are fixing the game and 1.20 will add several things to the game that should have been there at launch and more actual content will be coming. Sadly my biggest beef with the game right now is no sense of accomplishment. Everything is far to fast and way too easy. Except Ifrit drops, and those are just stupid.

But SE will get my $10 a month as long as I am still having fun. But just because I am willing to pay does not mean I don't find the game lacking.
#77 Dec 09 2011 at 11:06 AM Rating: Decent
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Double post O.o

Edited, Dec 9th 2011 12:07pm by Yelta
#78 Dec 09 2011 at 11:54 AM Rating: Excellent
I was pointing out that those who DO want to play but are complaining about the cost are silly. Not those who don't think it's worth paying for because they are only playing due to it's current free status. I should have clarified. My apologies.
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#79 Dec 09 2011 at 2:25 PM Rating: Good
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So at 2.0, will that mean that they will start charging for the 2nd retainer? The only thing I've seen was:
Quote:
As before, and until the release of Version 2.0, players will be entitled to employ two Retainers at no charge.
That doesn't seem clear either way.
I guess my other question is will it still be necessary to purchase another copy of the game (or perhaps a license) for the other platform? When 2.0 comes out will someone who bought the PC version be able to play on a friends PS3 w/o having bought a copy/license of the PS3 version? I thought there was something about them no longer requiring that but it could also be wishful thinking on my part.
#80 Dec 09 2011 at 2:33 PM Rating: Excellent
MrTalos wrote:
So at 2.0, will that mean that they will start charging for the 2nd retainer? The only thing I've seen was:
Quote:
As before, and until the release of Version 2.0, players will be entitled to employ two Retainers at no charge.
That doesn't seem clear either way.
I guess my other question is will it still be necessary to purchase another copy of the game (or perhaps a license) for the other platform? When 2.0 comes out will someone who bought the PC version be able to play on a friends PS3 w/o having bought a copy/license of the PS3 version? I thought there was something about them no longer requiring that but it could also be wishful thinking on my part.

Let me fix that for you:

Quote:
As before, and until the release of Version 2.0, players will be entitled to employ two Retainers at no charge.We will not charge you for your second retainer until version 2.0
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Humankind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something of equal value must be lost.
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#81 Dec 09 2011 at 2:40 PM Rating: Good
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StateAlchemist of Amestris wrote:
Quote:
As before, and until the release of Version 2.0, players will be entitled to employ two Retainers at no charge.We will not charge you for your second retainer until version 2.0

Thanks! That's what I had assumed but assumptions don't always work out too well.
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