Forum Settings
       
This Forum is Read Only

S-E feels the backlash from FFXIII with FFXIII-2 sales.Follow

#102 Dec 26 2011 at 10:49 AM Rating: Decent
Avatar
**
852 posts
UltKnightGrover wrote:
Whoa, I totally thought you guys were trolling when you said it was outsourced to China, I didn't think it was actually true.

As for my Devil May Cry franchise statement, it's not what I mean though. There's an actual development team in Europe that's doing the new one rather than Capcom's Japanese studio. That's different than saying FFXIV being developed in Japan and being programmed in China.


Horsebirds.
____________________________
#103 Dec 26 2011 at 1:18 PM Rating: Excellent
Can someone explain what is so horrible about FFXIII? I don't care if it only sold one copy or a billion. I like it, and can't really recall anything about it that was "bad". And as far as FFVII goes. It was ok, but I liked VIII better. I would pick up a copy if they remade VII but just because I like to see what SE is doing with their FF games. Mind you, I haven't played any of the games released for PSP, as I do not have one. :x

Edited, Dec 26th 2011 2:26pm by StateAlchemist
____________________________
Humankind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something of equal value must be lost.
Data Center: Primal; Server: Ultros; Free Company: The Kraken Club; Grand Company: The Maelstrom; Chocobo: Kweh
#104 Dec 26 2011 at 1:28 PM Rating: Good
***
3,177 posts
FFXIII in my opinion was a pretty solid RPG, and I think it would have been a great game in it's own right, if it wasn't a Final Fantasy title.

There's some lines you don't cross when making a Final Fantasy game, and I felt like XIII crossed those lines in a very bad way.

Edit: I realized I didn't put any examples.


Gameplay:

People posted this before, I'm willing to bet. But the linearity of the game is awful. The only surprises in the areas up until Chapter 12 or so is a treasure thing just slightly off the beaten path. There's hardly any gameplay at all until you get to Gran Pulse, and by then it was really too late. I was bored. The cutscenes are great, the story is great, the gameplay is mind-numbing.

Music:

The music was great (seriously, Masashi Hamauzu did a great job with the OST from the songs he's done), but I felt that they left out the nostalgic tracks of the series just for the sake of being different. There's no prelude, no prologue, no victory fanfare, and the ending theme is not an original theme. It doesn't seem Final Fantasy-ish in the least.

Edited, Dec 26th 2011 11:33am by UltKnightGrover
____________________________
Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn
Grover Eyeveen - Hyperion Server
Viva Eorzea Free Company/Linkshell Leader - Hyperion Server

Aegis Server (2012-2013)
Figaro Server (2010-2012)

Final Fantasy XI:
Retired

Blog
#105 Dec 26 2011 at 2:32 PM Rating: Excellent
****
9,526 posts
StateAlchemist of Amestris wrote:
I haven't played any of the games released for PSP, as I do not have one. :x


the PSP versions are generally not remakes (other than 1, 2, 4 and original tactics) but straight ports of the PS1 versions. (7, 8, 9)

I have to say given that the PSP is selling for just 100 bucks - and there are some wicked games available for it - I highly suggest it to anyone that enjoys portable gaming. It really is hard to go wrong - it is cheaper than getting a new DS, which is generations behind it.

I grew up in a relatively poor family so we never got access to the PS1 generation of games and emulators always seemed to run like crap on my laptop so for me, it was really cool to get to play a bunch of the tip top games that I missed out on when I was a kid. With games like Suikoden and Arc the Lad selling for just 5 bucks for a legal download (SE sells their games for 10 bucks a DL, unfortunately) there is a lot of gaming hours available for an incredibly cheap price (I also recommend the sega bundle - it costs like 15 bucks but you get like 30 games including the ecco the dolphin games, 3 phantasy star games, sonic 1 and 2, etc etc.)

/promo off
____________________________
lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#106 Dec 26 2011 at 3:10 PM Rating: Good
***
3,177 posts
I agree with all of your sentiments, except that you can probably find a DS that is backwards compatible with GBA for around 60 bucks. You can play the whole FF series until 7 on that as well.
____________________________
Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn
Grover Eyeveen - Hyperion Server
Viva Eorzea Free Company/Linkshell Leader - Hyperion Server

Aegis Server (2012-2013)
Figaro Server (2010-2012)

Final Fantasy XI:
Retired

Blog
#107 Dec 26 2011 at 3:54 PM Rating: Decent
****
9,526 posts
well yeah if you buy used for sure - but a brand new PSP is 99 bucks at walmart (last I seen here in Canadaland) while the DS is 120ish - and most/all of the final fantasy games are available as downloadable content for PSP, whereas (assuming you aren't pirating DS/advance games) you will have to dig up the carts for the other system.

I have both (I love portable gaming) but if someone was mulling over one or the other I would tell them to go for the PSP - Nintendo SUX with their downloads for 3DS (I bought 1 20$ game card and downloaded anything I have ANY interest in whatsoever including a game I ONLY bought cause my gf likes it) while I've spent at least $60 in Sony downloads and there are still games I want... and when it comes to vanilla DS - there are a lot of games that are worthwhile on it (partially because of advance games being pretty awesome) but tracking down the carts/getting them for a reasonable price can be difficult.

Honestly I sort of regret grabbing the 3ds (to replace my DS that broke) over the vanilla DS simply because it is handy being able play advance and DS games on one system - and the 3D hurts my eyes and the game selection for 3DS (like actual 3DS over DS games) sucks anyways.

Also, did they even make games soley for the DSi? I haven't seen any anywhere. What's with that?

Anyway, I love my GBA (love love love) and am happy to have it if only so I can play FF V which I don't think was rereleased for any other system. It really boggles my mind that nintendo hasn't worked out licenses to have all the older portable games downloadable with 3DS - I was actually sort of expecting that when I bought it - doesn't make sense to me that you can't (for example) download Pokemon Fire Red on it or something (and if newer pokemon was smart they would make it so you could trade with any game on your save card too), let alone final fantasy 6 - which was only rereleased on GBA and costs your first born to get hold of

Edited, Dec 26th 2011 2:06pm by Olorinus
____________________________
lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#108 Dec 26 2011 at 4:09 PM Rating: Good
****
9,526 posts
PS - sorry for derailing so hardcore lol
____________________________
lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#109 Dec 26 2011 at 5:21 PM Rating: Good
14 posts
13 was an ok game. sub-par FF title to be sure though. Lot of missed opportunistic and I'm surprised at the direction they went with 13-2 given the response to 13 along with 10-2 years ago.

Also thinking you guys are placing way too much credit on 14 for this games low sales. 14 is way beyond out of 99% of peoples minds and along with that it was most likely not even a thought for most people on release. A surprising amount of people don't even acknowledged or remember 11 and 14 exist (not that extreme lol)

13-2 sales are low for a FF title because 1. the first did not blow everyone away. 2. the new direction still is not desirable, towns or no towns. Mostly blame the two main characters for the second thing.

500k first week or w/e is amazing for everyone else. for a FF/(insert other huge franchise) its disappointing. Characters and endings aside people seem to be digging this one more than the first as a whole so hopefully SE starts listening a bit more...
#110 Dec 26 2011 at 6:42 PM Rating: Decent
15 posts
Zorvan wrote:
[quote=hexaemeron] FFXIII, along with XIV, did more damage to the brand than a hundred Spirits Within flops could ever manage.


Edited, Dec 21st 2011 3:37pm by Zorvan



HA!!!
#111AkumaOkami, Posted: Dec 26 2011 at 7:09 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Bottom line, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Just upgrade it slightly.
#112 Dec 26 2011 at 11:17 PM Rating: Good
***
2,202 posts
AkumaOkami wrote:
Bottom line, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Just upgrade it slightly.

Don't completely revamp. People that stick to Square are loyal because they are in love with FF games. If someone wants something else, they'll get a DIFFERENT game. They don't want you to do a complete 180 and entirely new games with a similar general out line with "Final Fantasy XXXXX" on the box.


FFX was the last true Final Fantasy.


that would be 9. X was garbage
____________________________
MUTED
#113 Dec 27 2011 at 12:29 AM Rating: Excellent
StateAlchemist of Amestris wrote:
Can someone explain what is so horrible about FFXIII? I don't care if it only sold one copy or a billion. I like it, and can't really recall anything about it that was "bad". And as far as FFVII goes. It was ok, but I liked VIII better. I would pick up a copy if they remade VII but just because I like to see what SE is doing with their FF games. Mind you, I haven't played any of the games released for PSP, as I do not have one. :x

Edited, Dec 26th 2011 2:26pm by StateAlchemist


I think what made XIII bad to most people was the horrible plot development along with the lack of an open world. Some thought the battle system was retarded, innovative, I suppose, downright boring and annoying, oh ya. Build chain, chain, chain, oh big atk, SWITCH!, wait, wait, ok SWITCH!... ok... almost there, SWITCH! There's also the character development, which I suppose falls under plot, they're all very bland or retarded. Lightning is the possibly the most interesting one of the bunch and she's still pretty blah.

The whole world map thing though kind of started going the way of the dodo in X, it was still there, but not like it's predecessors. I think people want that full world map to walk onto which leads to towns, caves, dungeons, etc. Makes the game feel epic and grand.

Back to that plot thing, with L'Cie, FalCie, this Cie, that Cie, Pulse, Cocoon, Grand Pulse, to this with Cie, that Fal'Cie, this L'cie, it just got retarded and hard to follow. I'm at Chapter 11 in the game, and I'm still not quite sure what I'm doing here. We're trying to save Cocoon, yet were here to destroy Cocoon, so we'll save it by fulfilling our focus which is to destroy Cocoon...I know I can read all those tidbits they add, but I don't really feel like it after every chapter.

So overall, the game looked pretty, but that was really the only positive along with the voice acting. Hard to get into an RPG when the plot is so horribly laid out for you.
____________________________

#114 Dec 27 2011 at 3:00 AM Rating: Excellent
Scholar
Avatar
***
1,339 posts
Montsegurnephcreep wrote:
Back to that plot thing, with L'Cie, FalCie, this Cie, that Cie, Pulse, Cocoon, Grand Pulse, to this with Cie, that Fal'Cie, this L'cie, it just got retarded and hard to follow. I'm at Chapter 11 in the game, and I'm still not quite sure what I'm doing here. We're trying to save Cocoon, yet were here to destroy Cocoon, so we'll save it by fulfilling our focus which is to destroy Cocoon...I know I can read all those tidbits they add, but I don't really feel like it after every chapter.

So overall, the game looked pretty, but that was really the only positive along with the voice acting. Hard to get into an RPG when the plot is so horribly laid out for you.


It's horribly laid out because, while SE's never been fantastic at story telling, they've also never been this downright terrible before. ****, even Mystic Quest's plot made more sense than 13's.

13 is convoluted and the major problem is that too much of the exposition is left out of the narrative and shoved into the datalog (to save money on voice acting, probably). Without giving too much of what little story there is away, it boils down to the fact that you are on Pulse to become stronger to kill Eden. Their focus as given to them by Anima and their focus that they believe Sarah's focus to be (which is wrong, Sarah's focus was simply to get the group to meet Anima, hence fulfilled, hence why she's a crystal) are entirely the same but not in their mind.

XIII ultimately is nothing more than another anti-religion JRPG because their focus is to destroy Cocoon -- the city shell -- to 'free their chains' from being the pets of the Fal'cie Eden. They simply don't realize this until after the events that transpire at the end of 11 and throughout the rest of the game. Anima wants them to destroy Cocoon to save 'Cocoon' and ****-poor conveyance of that concept is what screws the entire story over.

To them, and throughout the most of the game, they view Cocoon as the entire package and to them it makes them feel like monsters because Ragnarok was intended to destroy it. This is what the whole "We'll save Cocoon, we'll destroy Cocoon, MAMA COUGAR LIGHTNING PROTECTS HER CUB HOPE RAWR!!!!!!!!!!" is all about.

Edited, Dec 27th 2011 4:02am by Viertel
#115 Dec 27 2011 at 8:23 AM Rating: Excellent
***
2,010 posts
StateAlchemist of Amestris wrote:
Can someone explain what is so horrible about FFXIII? I don't care if it only sold one copy or a billion. I like it, and can't really recall anything about it that was "bad". And as far as FFVII goes.


I personally thought it was a little bit misleading. They really pushed that it was their first game with a female lead, and when I actually sat down and played it expecting one thing, I was annoyed when almost immediately the control swapped over to a variety of male characters that I wasn't particularly interested in. I put in maybe three hours before taking it back out of the Ps3 and putting it on a shelf forever. If a game can't capture my interest in three hours (which is a very fair assessment period, I think), it's not worth continuing.

Gameplay was too linear, there wasn't really what I felt to be an 'actual' lead character, and overall it just wasn't what I was expecting from a Final Fantasy title. I don't need token black characters with chocobos in their hair, or 16 year old kids running around like big heroes. I don't even particularly need a female lead (though it would be nice for ******* once). I just need a clear story that is true to the Final Fantasy lore and allows me to explore a rich new world at my leisure. BioWare and Bethesda spoiled me. It's hard to go back to SE with the same expectations I once had.

Was it completely awful? Probably not. But some of us just don't have the self-loathing to force ourselves through 200 hours of a game anymore to see if it gets good 'later on'.
#116 Dec 27 2011 at 9:05 AM Rating: Excellent
I kept putting off getting a PSP. I think I will just get the new one with the 3G or whatever. I haven't read up on it much, but if there are some FFXIV tools for it, that would be really nice to have. And of course, I am sure there will be some really great games for it too. :D
____________________________
Humankind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something of equal value must be lost.
Data Center: Primal; Server: Ultros; Free Company: The Kraken Club; Grand Company: The Maelstrom; Chocobo: Kweh
#117 Dec 27 2011 at 10:32 AM Rating: Excellent
Someone mentioned that FFXIII-2 is fun.

Has anyone played FFXII-2 it that can answer a few questions? I'm not even sure what answers I'm looking for, but maybe something would spark my interest.

1.) Still super linear?
2.) Still have shops combined with save points?
3.) Still using the paradigm shift mechanic? (I think saw this in a screenshot, maybe why I'm not too interested.)
4.) Still uses the Crystarium?
5.) Do you need to have completed FXIII for the story to make sense?

If anyone could take the time to answer these it would be much appreciated.

#118 Dec 27 2011 at 10:56 AM Rating: Good
***
3,825 posts
SmashingtonWho wrote:
Someone mentioned that FFXIII-2 is fun.

Has anyone played FFXII-2 it that can answer a few questions? I'm not even sure what answers I'm looking for, but maybe something would spark my interest.

1.) Still super linear?
2.) Still have shops combined with save points?
3.) Still using the paradigm shift mechanic? (I think saw this in a screenshot, maybe why I'm not too interested.)
4.) Still uses the Crystarium?
5.) Do you need to have completed FXIII for the story to make sense?

If anyone could take the time to answer these it would be much appreciated.



Haven't played, but the answers are all over the net (so take with a rain of salt)

1. No
2. No (maybe? I'm pretty sure I read about shops in towns with NPCs with side quests)
3. Yes, but modified (personally I liked the PS system after a while, I HATED it at first; but once I got used to it I kinda liked it alot. I still prefer full control of my party though)
4. Yes, but highly modified version I believe
5. No, but supposedly there are some refrences to the first game. No prior playthrough of XIII required for full story "enjoyment" in -2
____________________________
FFXI:Sylph - Perrin 75 Hume THF; Retired (At least from my use any way)
EVE Online:ScraperX; Retired
WAR:IronClaw- Peryn SW;SkullThrone- Grymloc BO; Retired


#119 Dec 27 2011 at 10:59 AM Rating: Good
**
325 posts
Oh my, my husband just bought me FFXII-2 preorder for christmas, and I can't even remember if I liked the first one or not... Time to dig it out.
#120 Dec 27 2011 at 12:19 PM Rating: Excellent
Thanks Perrin. Still wouldn't mind hearing some feedback from anyone currently playing.

The answers you are giving seems to indicate they took some of the feedback from XIII and made some changes. Looks like it may be worth a try after all.

#121 Dec 27 2011 at 2:19 PM Rating: Default
Avatar
***
1,609 posts
OMG discussing things on the forums with some of the White Knights is like talking to a brick wall! Why do I bother @_@;
____________________________


"I've never watched a nuclear explosion myself. That's a couple of degrees of stupid above my limit"- Old Man Harris
#122 Dec 27 2011 at 3:00 PM Rating: Good
***
3,825 posts
SmashingtonWho wrote:
Thanks Perrin. Still wouldn't mind hearing some feedback from anyone currently playing.

The answers you are giving seems to indicate they took some of the feedback from XIII and made some changes. Looks like it may be worth a try after all.



Since you're not overly interested, if you don't mind waiting a few days after release I'd gladly share my opinions on it I'd be happy to PM you. However, I'm sure many translated reviews will be making their way to us in English form in a few days.

I personally liked XIII other than the part where I couldn't max out stuff until after finishing the story, which ended up with me not maxing stuff out because after about 10hrs I realised I'd already beaten the game. I did find the begining "half" a bit linear, but honestly these days that suited me a bit because I can't dedicate countless hours. I remember having to restart older FF's because there was a 1 week break between sessions and I'd forgotten what to do. With XIII I obviously didn't have that problem. I also liked the voice acting even though a lot of folks didn't, but then again I've always been partial to Aussie accents and living in the UK these last 4 years has broadened my acceptance of random accents as well.

I'm looking forward to XIII-2 more than I was XIII because I do like the idea of a continued story. Hopefully this one lets you max up levels BEFORE the final battle. I like to do the fight and then find out I have to grind a bit to beat it, and then grind to max and beat it again with lvl 99's ^.^ (As some have said, I think it would have been better recieved as a non-FF title with 0 changes)

Edited, Dec 27th 2011 9:02pm by Perrin
____________________________
FFXI:Sylph - Perrin 75 Hume THF; Retired (At least from my use any way)
EVE Online:ScraperX; Retired
WAR:IronClaw- Peryn SW;SkullThrone- Grymloc BO; Retired


#123 Dec 27 2011 at 4:12 PM Rating: Default
***
2,202 posts
But FXIII-2 is not a continued story, not like X-2 atleast, FXIII is more like, you remember that game you played with the same name as this ? Well forget about it, because this one has nothing to do with it lol
____________________________
MUTED
#124 Dec 27 2011 at 5:37 PM Rating: Excellent
*
140 posts
It's pretty damning to say that I'd rather buy another remake/revamp/re-release of FFIV over anything FFXIII-related. It's why I think Square-Enix have lost their touch from XII and onward -- their games are shifting away from quaint and fantastical tales with memorable villains, towards more pretty boys, J-Pop, bubbly characters & villains of the week that are little more than filler. It's also why I'm quite hesitant in buying Agito when it comes out. It's looking like more of the things I hate in modern JRPGs.

I feel that part of it is because this content is being created for a new generation of fans, who would have less of a taste for anything resembling old-school FF (anything from VI backward) and would want a fluffy presentation like this. S-E's old fans still purchase their products, so it's mind-boggling why they'd ignore that base in favor of a new generation. It's not like we can't coexist, or that they have to choose one over the other. Really, I'd run right out and buy the new FF game if it had a dark fantasy tone, rife with political intrigue, backstabbing...maybe a tale of redemption of the main protagonist. It'd help if no one in the party were under the age of 20 or incorporated the 'Fashionable Armor' idea (I.E., short skirt, pants, etc. that can seemingly stop a Behemoth's claws more effectively than a set of Plate Mail), but that's more of a personal peeve of mine. In other words, move back more towards fantasy, with less high-tech as a backdrop...would be a good first step at least.

I saw some pics of Serah and That New Kid (name escapes me at the moment, but that in itself is a strike against the game -- he seems that forgettable) and became disgusted. I don't want to play as J-Pop kiddies. The sooner that S-E realizes force-feeding this garbage down the mouths of their customers further sends the franchise into utter pap, the better off they'll be, in a creative sense.
#125 Dec 27 2011 at 8:44 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
970 posts
I haven't played XIIII-2 but did enjoy XIII. This is the info I gathered from watching imported playthroughs and the gamefaqs forums.

1.The paradigm shifts are still used. But the third party slot is reserved for monster companions. Monsters roles are locked, so if you are currently using a medic monster and need a ravager. You would have to swap in a different monster.

2.While there are around 150 monsters to unlock and upgrade their appearance and stats. You can only have 3 monsters to choose from during battle. This is to make selection more strategic. Would be too easy if you could swap 150 monsters in and out on the fly.

3.The paradigm shift is still the same on premise. But the transition load times have been significantly reduced.

4.Don't quote me on this because I'm not 100% sure. But I believe the retry option has been abolished. But you can now save anywhere in game besides in battle. There is also an autosave feature but I read comments that it didn't autosave frequently enough.

5.There is a blood damage feature, certain types of damage that cannot be healed during one battle.

6.Environments range from XIII corridor maps to a size roughly between the larger areas in X and XII. You can backtrack and are not forced to only walk forward. There has actually been a few small of complaints about needing to backtrack too often. This may be in part due to certain areas being locked out initially and the need for mog to upgrade his treasure seeking abilities.

7.Enemies spawn only when you get near them. Then the mog clock system appears. If you attack an enemy while it is green you earn pre-emptive strike, yellow for standard encounter, and red equals surprise attack on you. You can flee encounters if you get out of agro range before the mog clock reaches 0.

8.There is a gold saucer type city with minigames and chocobo races. There is one mandatory minigame called time labrynths. It's a platformesque minigame that starts off very simple. I read that closer to the end of the game one guy was stuck on platform puzzle for 1 hr.

9.The crystarium still exist but it function much more closely to the sphere grid from X. Also you can't cap out every skill. You have to choose from 3 builds.

10.The historia crux functions like a cross between chrono cross and new game plus. Certain time eras are locked out until you collect oopart fragments to unlock a time era. You unlock fragments via quests, defeating monsters,etc.

11.Linnerarity- Every ff has been linnear but some offered the illusion of non linnearity. It's still a themepark regardless. But only two mainline ff have had true unllinearity with regards to main story advancement. XIII-2 and X-2 if I'm not mistaken. On xiii-2 I have read comments that it is too non linnear in main plot advancement. The historia crux is like a new game plus, but you don't need to begin from the very beginning. You can freely travel and complete the main story in different orders at a certain point in the game.

12.The live trigger dialogue system can be skipped because it is mostly for coloring. But be warned that some live triggers are required to achieve certain endings.

13.The game has 8 paradox ending and one true ending at launch. This will probably be expanded via dlc if the game sales well enough to allow this. Some of the ending are very,very sad and some are let's say quirky.

14. The game play time averages roughly from 40 hours just focsuing on the main story. To around 100 hours if you are a completionist earning every ending, finishing all siqequest, etc. This will be expanded via dlc if the game sales well enough.

15. There is a colloseum where you can fight for prizes. Almost forgot to mention this one.

I have gathered alot more info. But I don't want to share anymore due to possible spoilers. I only see four things people may not like and can legitimately complain about in XIII-2 besides the story. They fixed and refined everything else from the previous entry.

1.You can only control Noel, Serah, and a monster for the majority of the time. You can only play Lightning for a short time and hope/snow are uncontrollable for their portions to my knowledge.

2.Paradigm shifts, I liked them but I know some of you didn't. If this is something that will not let you enjoy what the rest of the game offers. Well....

3.Characters and story. This is opinion on what you like. VIII story was the worst in my eyes. You like what you like and no one can change your mind.

4.You just dislike dlc in general and wish to see fully complete games released at launch. I think XIII-2 has enough content to launch. And I don't mind paying extra for additional expanded content. I do it in mmos already. If they did this for VI or XII(I didn't like the star wars feel or excessive grind, but everything else was AAA) I don't even know if I would have played XI as much as I did. Since it was the only ff universe that constantly expanded.

@Perrin: You can grind levels in XIII-2 all you want. This may lead to people saying the game is too easy though. I never died in any ff more than I did in XIII. That was due to the level cap. As a matter of fact I don't die in any other mainline FF other than XII and occasionally in X.
Edited, Dec 27th 2011 9:52pm by sandpark

Edited, Dec 27th 2011 9:56pm by sandpark
#126 Dec 27 2011 at 9:23 PM Rating: Good
***
2,232 posts
sandpark wrote:
I haven't played XIIII-2 but did enjoy XIII. This is the info I gathered from watching imported playthroughs and the gamefaqs forums.

1.The paradigm shifts are still used. But the third party slot is reserved for monster companions. Monsters roles are locked, so if you are currently using a medic monster and need a ravager. You would have to swap in a different monster.

2.While there are around 150 monsters to unlock and upgrade their appearance and stats. You can only have 3 monsters to choose from during battle. This is to make selection more strategic. Would be too easy if you could swap 150 monsters in and out on the fly.

3.The paradigm shift is still the same on premise. But the transition load times have been significantly reduced.

4.Don't quote me on this because I'm not 100% sure. But I believe the retry option has been abolished. But you can now save anywhere in game besides in battle. There is also an autosave feature but I read comments that it didn't autosave frequently enough.

5.There is a blood damage feature, certain types of damage that cannot be healed during one battle.

6.Environments range from XIII corridor maps to a size roughly between the larger areas in X and XII. You can backtrack and are not forced to only walk forward. There has actually been a few small of complaints about needing to backtrack too often. This may be in part due to certain areas being locked out initially and the need for mog to upgrade his treasure seeking abilities.

7.Enemies spawn only when you get near them. Then the mog clock system appears. If you attack an enemy while it is green you earn pre-emptive strike, yellow for standard encounter, and red equals surprise attack on you. You can flee encounters if you get out of agro range before the mog clock reaches 0.

8.There is a gold saucer type city with minigames and chocobo races. There is one mandatory minigame called time labrynths. It's a platformesque minigame that starts off very simple. I read that closer to the end of the game one guy was stuck on platform puzzle for 1 hr.

9.The crystarium still exist but it function much more closely to the sphere grid from X. Also you can't cap out every skill. You have to choose from 3 builds.

10.The historia crux functions like a cross between chrono cross and new game plus. Certain time eras are locked out until you collect oopart fragments to unlock a time era. You unlock fragments via quests, defeating monsters,etc.

11.Linnerarity- Every ff has been linnear but some offered the illusion of non linnearity. It's still a themepark regardless. But only two mainline ff have had true unllinearity with regards to main story advancement. XIII-2 and X-2 if I'm not mistaken. On xiii-2 I have read comments that it is too non linnear in main plot advancement. The historia crux is like a new game plus, but you don't need to begin from the very beginning. You can freely travel and complete the main story in different orders at a certain point in the game.

12.The live trigger dialogue system can be skipped because it is mostly for coloring. But be warned that some live triggers are required to achieve certain endings.

13.The game has 8 paradox ending and one true ending at launch. This will probably be expanded via dlc if the game sales well enough to allow this. Some of the ending are very,very sad and some are let's say quirky.

14. The game play time averages roughly from 40 hours just focsuing on the main story. To around 100 hours if you are a completionist earning every ending, finishing all siqequest, etc. This will be expanded via dlc if the game sales well enough.

15. There is a colloseum where you can fight for prizes. Almost forgot to mention this one.

I have gathered alot more info. But I don't want to share anymore due to possible spoilers. I only see four things people may not like and can legitimately complain about in XIII-2 besides the story. They fixed and refined everything else from the previous entry.

1.You can only control Noel, Serah, and a monster for the majority of the time. You can only play Lightning for a short time and hope/snow are uncontrollable for their portions to my knowledge.

2.Paradigm shifts, I liked them but I know some of you didn't. If this is something that will not let you enjoy what the rest of the game offers. Well....

3.Characters and story. This is opinion on what you like. VIII story was the worst in my eyes. You like what you like and no one can change your mind.

4.You just dislike dlc in general and wish to see fully complete games released at launch. I think XIII-2 has enough content to launch. And I don't mind paying extra for additional expanded content. I do it in mmos already. If they did this for VI or XII(I didn't like the star wars feel or excessive grind, but everything else was AAA) I don't even know if I would have played XI as much as I did. Since it was the only ff universe that constantly expanded.

@Perrin: You can grind levels in XIII-2 all you want. This may lead to people saying the game is too easy though. I never died in any ff more than I did in XIII. That was due to the level cap. As a matter of fact I don't die in any other mainline FF other than XII and occasionally in X.
Edited, Dec 27th 2011 9:52pm by sandpark

Edited, Dec 27th 2011 9:56pm by sandpark



All sounds like a a mix game between FF XIII and FF X-2. While I don't generally go for a game that requires multiple playthroughs to see everything, it's good to hear there's at least a good 40 hour adventure to start with.

Thanks for all the great info!!

Edit regarding blood damage (your item #5): From what I read in a gamespot article, you begin getting bleeding damage if certain boss fights go on too long. In order to stop the bleeding, you have to finish the fight.

Edited, Dec 27th 2011 7:28pm by LebargeX
#127 Dec 27 2011 at 9:35 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
970 posts
Ah thanks on clarifying blood damage. I guess that gives motivation to end battles efficiently.
I'm not going to bother to edit. But I should have said VIII was my second to least favorite story. X-2 took that cake on that one. I bought the game without any research into it. Then the charlies angels/meets dance dance revolution kicks in. I look at the case like wtf? I had to make sure it was a final fantasy title.

Luckily I continued playing thru that. I really liked dress spheres and the combat system.
#128 Dec 27 2011 at 9:39 PM Rating: Good
***
2,232 posts
sandpark wrote:
Ah thanks on clarifying blood damage. I guess that gives motivation to end battles efficiently.
I'm not going to bother to edit. But I should have said VIII was my second to least favorite story. X-2 took that cake on that one. I bought the game without any research into it. Then the charlies angels/meets dance dance revolution kicks in. I look at the case like wtf? I had to make sure it was a final fantasy title.

Luckily I continued playing thru that. I really liked dress spheres and the combat system.


Yeah, FF X-2 is definitely a guilty pleasure for me. The paradigm system reminded me a lot of the whole dress sphere thing.
#129 Dec 28 2011 at 2:57 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
I get that some people don't care about a FFVII remake, but honestly, if SE was a business that wanted to make money by selling products that their fans would love and pay money for (i.e., any well-regarded business ever), then they would make a FFVII remake. It's still one of their greatest hits, and by far would benefit the most from a graphical overhaul, plus it has the precedent from Crisis Core. If SE decided they wanted to ship a few million units of something, that's all it would take.

If you personally don't care about a FFVII remake, that's perfectly defensible. That doesn't change the fact that it's a poor business move for SE.


As for SE's storytelling, I don't know what to say to someone who doesn't think that SE has told some really excellent stories in the past. What's your basis for comparison? Because even compared to some really great literature, cinema, theater, and television, some of SE's stories really do stand out as deserving of the label "classic."


Lastly, FFXIII's linearity was not even remotely its major flaw. Plenty of games manage to be critically successful in spite of relative linearity. Consider Gears of Wars, or No More Heroes (the nonlinear parts of NMH were actually one of the biggest complaints levied against the game). FFXIII's major flaw was not remotely resembling its players' expectations, which alone was enough to incite heavy criticism of the game. Add to that a tedious combat system, lack of combat control, and very little customization-- you've crippled an otherwise successful game.

FFXIII isn't an objectively bad game-- it's just not the caliber that is expected of a FF numeral. Fairly, this puts people off from purchasing games blindly.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#130 Dec 28 2011 at 7:54 AM Rating: Excellent
**
568 posts
Zorvan wrote:
hexaemeron wrote:
I can't say I'm surprised. A LOT of people got stung by 13 and then 14.

I think what this does show is that, contrary to the fanbots who all use FFXIII's sales as proof everyone loved it and it was a great game, in reality the original FFXIII sold on brand devotion alone.

Added with FFXIV, the faith is shaken. All those people are not willing to just blindly snag a title merely because it has Final Fantasy in the title any more. FFXIII, along with XIV, did more damage to the brand than a hundred Spirits Within flops could ever manage.

It also tells us that the Japanese audience is no more likely to blindly support S-E any more than the NA audience is, which is particularly telling as FF was on par with cult-status in the Land of the Rising Sun.


Edited, Dec 21st 2011 3:37pm by Zorvan



This is true.

Yet given how desperate they are to make the series more shooter-like I don't know if this will be enough for them to take the the massive 1-million-disc-sized hint staring them in the face.

I started playing the old Final fantasy games that I haven't played through yet and they beat XIII hands down in every department except the technical level of graphics.

Visually I'd take another romantic VIII scifi or unique IX medieval re-invented any day of the week over XIII's generic sci-fi setting that seems to lack the charm and story elements of the past games.
#131 Dec 28 2011 at 8:41 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
970 posts
I care about every final fantasy. SE could do a fan service and make money off a remake. Any ff prior to X could see great benefit from a 3d graphical overhaul. But it would have to be modernized a bit. The rpg industry has grown in execution. When does the potential for modernization trickle into upsetting fan nostalgia though? That said I would buy a remake of a classic. BUt if one wasn't made I wouldn't cry either.

I enjoy SE's storytelling now and always have. So, I don't have any comments on that.

I enjoyed XIII. BUt for the masses linearity and streamlining was what they considered a flaw. They streamlined and executed to perfection for what they set out to do. Flawless execution on streamlining I say. But in the process of perfect execution, many things got so streamlined that it took control/player management out of the player's hands. People can hate the combat system for the lack of player input management. But tedious is not a word applicable to XIII other than ultimate weapon upgrading. XIII has the least amount of tedious management out of any FF. I used to hate auto attack because it took control out of my hands.(I primarily hated XII for this but understodd why finally. Now I enjoy XII.) But it grew on me. I saw that if there aren't variety of different attacks or a stamina/charge mechanic it is actually more streamlined and less tedious.

-Magic was seperated into tabs instead of all being clunked together in the same menu.[removed tedium]
-A repeat button was giving for repeating a string of moves. They realized that each encounter required certain strings of repeating moves so implemented this.[removed tedium]
-Retry button, yeah I know it makes progression easier to advance but I understand why aka it [removed tedium.]
-Removed mp from the equation.[removed tedium]
-Full hp restored after battles.[removed tedium]
-paradigm shifts removed the need for cycling through players.[removed tedium]
-simplified/streamlined itemization.First FF I didn't need to carry around 100 situational items.[removed tedium]
-only allowed you to walk forward and not backtrack often.[removed tedium]
-created unique and beautifully detailed environments with little interaction.[removed tedium]But if you like to explore, this bad for you.
-streamlined objectives and made progress clear.First FF I didn't need to read about from an online faq or guide to finish the game. Only needed to for upgrading eg weapons.[removed tedium]
-complete minimap and map function. You didn't need to search online to find out where to find stuff.[removed tedium]
- Thourougly categorized the story, world, characters, and beastiary in the datalogs[removed tedium]Problem was the story was a tad confusing and if you didn't read datalogs you might be clueless what's going on fully.
-Good functional AI for companions, so good most of the time. That even if we had a gambit option it wouldn't have been needed usually.[removed tedium]
-Small traverseable areas but free or low on bugs, framerate dips,etc.(I didn't experience one framerate dip thru my playthroughs. Skyrim huge fantastic world but man those dips chapped my ***. Sometimes It made me feel like turning it off. Even had a few in dark souls.}[removed tedium]
-capped levels to pace with the story.[removed tedium]

I could go on and on for alot longer on the streamline process. The quality of execution was flawless, but the game became so streamlined that it made player input linnear on many, many facets, it lost meat. If XIV is the poster child for clunkiness in your ff book. XIII is on the opposite side of the spectrum and every other ff lies between.
I can compare this metaphor to a real life situation. When everyday things we use start to respond just by our thoughts or words. Life will be less stressful or tedious.
But less tedium doesn't always equate to more fun.

But as I said I loved XIII and could see the level of professionalism that went into it's creation. They just need to remember that often things are not as interesting, if we the people cannot interact fully and tinker with things. This is what the big disconnect from XIII was. Luckily, many of the things I listed earlier in my other post has been addressed by SE in xiii-2. But this fanbase is so varied and spoiled by past iterations. That XIII-2 may never even get the chance to shine.
#132 Dec 28 2011 at 8:55 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
970 posts
Quick note on something. My post may give an impression that I prefer all XIII did and I am trying to defend it. I am not, I just enjoyed the game for what it was.
I personally want them to look at every mainline FF. Take what each was critically and commercially praised for by critics and users. Refine every good system from each game and put forth that game in XV. Back to the roots so they say. I actually prefer hardcore resource managment because it involves me in the thought process more.
-Say like create a refined user gambit system not pre-formed Ai.
-A combination of X limit breaks with XIII-2 cinematic scenarios.
-Character unique commands from VI.
-Traits and skills learned by equipping gear like IX.
-Magic system built off the concept of espers or materia.

Then after that they can start trying to create new systems, etc.
#133 Dec 28 2011 at 10:08 AM Rating: Good
Thanks for all the info Sandpark. I'm likely to give it a shot at some point.

In spite of the recent disappointments, I have to admit I'm looking forward to the next FF title, FFXV I imagine. I hope it comes with it a new battle system, and some characters I actually like. I can manage with Paradigm shifts, but would prefer moving away from the repetitive Stagger mechanic.

I agree that the emo children characters are just horrible to watch. I also prefer a medieval setting, properly armored heroes and imaginative beasties to the stylized, futuristic mechanical monsters and robots.

Hopefully, the next director/dev team will have a more traditional overall concept. Ideally, instead of going out on a limb with some possibly confusing innovation, they will focus on improving past concepts that worked well.
#134 Dec 29 2011 at 2:34 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
970 posts
Was just thinking about one complaint I read about XIII when the game initially released lol.
Some users complained that there was no npcs to talk with and buy things from.
-XIII had an auction house, a one stop menu shop accesible from many places.

In XIII-2 they introduce Chocolina, an npc that you can buy all your goods from many places.
-I imagine the next complaint will be that users would like to see different npcs selling things depending on the city.
-Or they don't like having to purchase everything in one place.

XIV- We want an auction house.
XIII- Why you put auction house?

I guess when it's a multiplayer driven economy circumstances change. Or maybe it was just the presentation of the non auction house format. Probably both.
I never liked the implementation/presentation of npcs in rpgs usually. You got a city with 40-100 residents living there. But only 1-5 of them actually has anything questwise to say. The rest of them are relegated to repeating one to two sentences commenting on the weather or something. I play any game mostly for the combat, action, or unique interactions. Not running around constantly to see 1-2 line comments or play delivery boy.

The npc interaction I care about are the unique interactions such as the wig quest in VII, catching butterflies in skyward sword, dialogue choiced conversations that add personality such as da0 and xiii-2, protecting windhelm event in skyrim, puzzle solving co-op in resident evils,etc. The only time I like one liners from npcs is when they are voiced and input to add humor, show how npcs perceive each other, or add backstory.
#135 Dec 29 2011 at 5:20 PM Rating: Excellent
Scholar
***
1,948 posts
sandpark wrote:
I never liked the implementation/presentation of npcs in rpgs usually. You got a city with 40-100 residents living there. But only 1-5 of them actually has anything questwise to say. The rest of them are relegated to repeating one to two sentences commenting on the weather or something. I play any game mostly for the combat, action, or unique interactions. Not running around constantly to see 1-2 line comments or play delivery boy.


That's why Radiata Stories was truly unique, almost all the 100s NPC have mini-quest and can join your party, down to the kids and farmers though one would question why you want them in your party fighting. Oh and each of the NPC also has a daily routine that is better than TES.
____________________________




#136 Dec 29 2011 at 5:41 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
970 posts
AH! Radiata story. I remember buying that but gave it to my cousin almost immediately. I was consumed by breath of fire 1 & 2, final fantasies, and legend of dragoon. Hmmm, I might just try and pick that up.

If I was going to be head of npc interactions in an rpg. The first thing I would do is try and recruit comedic talent for voiceovers and mannerisms. The easy fix would be to hire a bunch of triple a comedians. But that would probably prove too difficult in terms of costs and availability. I would probably head hunt Robin Williams so he could work in collaboration with script writers and event planners.

Robin has vast experience as a comedian, actor, script interpretation, vocal dynamics, altered voices, etc, etc. He can add dynamics to sad, funny, happy, whatever the genre.
Bascially he is crazy lol. I would enjoy or be excited just to see what an npc would say to me next lol. I'd have him as the creative director on npc dialogues and coach other voice talent to add more dynamics to their performance.

Quests and interactions is where rpgs are solely lacking dynamics. I wish square would just put a bunch of writers and scenario planners in a room. And say your not coming out of there until you come up with 3-4 times the amount of unique quests and interaction mechanics than any rpg we have done before. Of course not in one sitting, but you get the picture. I lack the patience as I get older for filler or padding. :(
#137 Dec 29 2011 at 6:13 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
***
1,948 posts
I think SE needs to outsource Obsidian to do the quests and interactions. FO:NV still has the best quest lines that choice DOES matter unlike anything on Earth, including FAKE choice in Bioware games. Why can't Shepard just join with the Reapers and happily ever after clean out all biology lifeforms in the Galaxy? Why can't the Grey Warden just took over the Blight himself and then rule with an iron fist in place of the Archdemon? Bioware games choices become less important with each installments they made, at least back in KOTOR or Baldur Gate 1+2 you can still be the bad guy for the sake of being evil. Later games no matter what you just did, you saved the world and be a good guy.
____________________________




#138 Dec 29 2011 at 8:26 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
970 posts
I think in the case of Bioware games giving less profound choices. I think they are approaching game development with the mindset of IPs now. The problem is that their IPs unlike square tend to take place in the same universe/world. So say if The grey warden took over the land with an iron fist. What would he have left to fight? Other countries? Maybe, but then that would close the door on other avenues or limit plot expanding.

If Dragon Age keeps selling. I wouldn't doubt we see a Dragon Age 10 some years down the road. One of my most memorable choices in a square game had nothing to with dialogue at all. I remember the choice to leave or wait for Shadow on the floating continent, also the choice to either kill Magus or get him to join you. Square has even more flexibility to make the player choose irreversable things due to their games always set in diffferent times, and worlds.
It be cool to have a very difficult one and one duel with a rival in a square game. No reset or redo option on each playthrough. You win you earn his respect and friendship or airship. You lose and you lose the chance at anything he offers.
#139 Dec 29 2011 at 10:41 PM Rating: Excellent
**
305 posts
StateAlchemist of Amestris wrote:
Can someone explain what is so horrible about FFXIII? I don't care if it only sold one copy or a billion. I like it, and can't really recall anything about it that was "bad". And as far as FFVII goes. It was ok, but I liked VIII better. I would pick up a copy if they remade VII but just because I like to see what SE is doing with their FF games. Mind you, I haven't played any of the games released for PSP, as I do not have one. :x

Edited, Dec 26th 2011 2:26pm by StateAlchemist


It's not really horrible, just not one of their better efforts (imo). Aside from the linearity I just did not really give a crap about most of the characters or the story. They just were not engaging to me. I can deal with the linearity if the story and characters were solid but this one was one of the more forgettable stories for me. The characters are also becoming pigeon holed into archetypes that are becoming caricature of what they once were.

I do not know if it is simply me getting old and the characters getting younger that make them harder to relate to or just a decline in story telling as of late.

Just my opinion. I have been a fan of final fantasy since the first one and can usually remember characters and plot points from the early installments but as of late they are just... forgettable.


Oh yeah... and having to get story elements from a journal (i forget the term they used for it). This should be conveyed through game-play NOT THROUGH OPTIONAL TEXT!!!!!!! Having flavor text in a codex/journal or additional lore to flesh out things, that works (mass effect is pretty good with that) but major plot elements should be in game play....

Edited, Dec 29th 2011 11:41pm by KacesofCaitsith
____________________________


#140 Dec 30 2011 at 7:41 PM Rating: Default
Scholar
***
1,948 posts
sandpark wrote:
I think in the case of Bioware games giving less profound choices. I think they are approaching game development with the mindset of IPs now. The problem is that their IPs unlike square tend to take place in the same universe/world. So say if The grey warden took over the land with an iron fist. What would he have left to fight? Other countries? Maybe, but then that would close the door on other avenues or limit plot expanding.


No they are just lazy, Fallout always offers a lot more profound choices and we still have FO1, FO2, FO3, FO:NV and spin-off which are set in alternate timeline like FOT or FO BOS.
____________________________




#141 Dec 30 2011 at 8:37 PM Rating: Good
***
3,530 posts
sandpark wrote:
I haven't played XIIII-2 but did enjoy XIII. This is the info I gathered...

...there are around 150 monsters to unlock and upgrade


So, Pokemon, got it; that's all I needed to know.
____________________________
"... he called to himself a wizard, named Gallery, hoping by this means to escape the paying of the fifteen hundred crowns..." (Machen 15)

"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#142 Dec 31 2011 at 2:07 AM Rating: Excellent
Scholar
Avatar
***
1,339 posts
sandpark wrote:
I think in the case of Bioware games giving less profound choices. I think they are approaching game development with the mindset of IPs now. The problem is that their IPs unlike square tend to take place in the same universe/world. So say if The grey warden took over the land with an iron fist. What would he have left to fight? Other countries? Maybe, but then that would close the door on other avenues or limit plot expanding.


As opposed to what... no choices like JRPGs? The only JRPG I can honestly think of that gave you a 'choice' in the storyline (not sidequests people) was the original Dragon Quest: you can join the Dragonlord or defeat him. They're linear to a fault in terms of storyline as you're along for the ride; your alignment is chosen, your manner is chosen, you are a spectator and not a participant. Chrono Trigger could be the closest in terms of having "some" freedom but it's only in how/when you decide to kill Lavos.

At least in Bioware's games you literally *are* the person and shape him according to an alignment or personality that you have decided to pursue. Yes, the majority of the events in a game will happen regardless to get to the end but the manner in which you get there does affect the story with consequences long term.

Usually people that don't like the underlying methods of Bioware games generally don't really like Role Playing games and prefer a sandbox (Elder scrolls) or an interactive movie (JRPGS). There's nothing wrong with it but some people prefer to just attempt to empathize with a cast of characters instead of actually shaping their own.
#143 Dec 31 2011 at 6:28 AM Rating: Good
***
3,825 posts
Surprised no one is bringing up the lackluster Vita sales... Could just be everyone in JP is broke or saving for something better right now?
____________________________
FFXI:Sylph - Perrin 75 Hume THF; Retired (At least from my use any way)
EVE Online:ScraperX; Retired
WAR:IronClaw- Peryn SW;SkullThrone- Grymloc BO; Retired


#144Khornette, Posted: Dec 31 2011 at 7:08 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Radiata Story had two different routes: Human and Fairy, basically two sides of a war. Sure you get the same final boss, but mid way through story until the very last boss you have completely different set of characters to join your party and you face the opposite-route allies as enemies. That's a lot more freedom than FAKE choice of a Bioware game, for instance think of a DA where you can choose the Grey Warden OR the Blight to join.
#145 Dec 31 2011 at 12:58 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
Avatar
***
1,339 posts
Khornette wrote:
And lol that I don't like sandbox. TES and FO has always been my favourite, heck Baldur Gate were there too. The moment Bioware forced us all to be the good guy no matter what personality or allegiance you're trying to give your character, I started to hate their games. So where is this long term consequence that I can be an *** God of Murder at the end like in BG:ToB?

Edited, Dec 31st 2011 8:15am by Khornette


Bolded part pretty much tells me you haven't really played their games. There are these things called alignment, and Bioware has developed their games so that you can pretty much play *ANY* of the major nine alignments up to and including the much vaunted chaotic evil (aka Kefka). The fact that you decided to let people live instead of kill them and chose to go the route of a good guy is a fault with how you played.

And Radiata Story? You seriously herald that as some mythical "really make choices"? All that really is is picking which faction/storyline you're going to pursue once you're finished with an incredibly long prologue. I would hardly herald this as an awe inspiring game because as much as I like Tri-Ace games RS was pretty horrible in the story department on BOTH sides. It's supposed to be this metaphor with how other countries would see another's invasion and conquest (i.e. human nature) and cause you to want to join their side, but poor writing, poor scripting, and poor storyboard choices make it fall flat.

And I didn't say you didn't like sandbox RPGs. Clearly you should take a few lessons in reading comprehension.

Edited, Dec 31st 2011 2:00pm by Viertel
#146 Dec 31 2011 at 5:07 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
970 posts
Every FF is basically pokemon then. You kill or quest summons and in some you upgrade them and control them. If you slap lore on XIII-2 and call the monsters deities same thing. Maybe they should change the name of FF to safari then since we ride chocobos.

There are some choices in FF and other jrpgs to mix up the story. If you can't recall those moments then you never really actually played jrpgs. I listed two above in an earlier post but there are quite a bit more if you count all jrpgs. Jrpgs may be more like interactive movies in storytelling. But Bioware is more like choose your own adventure books lately. Instead of an interactive real time sequence like most jrpgs do. Western you just choose from a dialogue text. Do I kill him? Or let him live? For alot of the copious amounts of backlore in western games. Most of it is relegated to things that happened long before you came around, or more like all the cool things. IN DA2 the most exciting things happened in DAO and in DAO the coolest lore happened in Tevinter. Where as in jrpgs, the cool stuff is happening right now and you are in the thick of it.

As for media in general each side of the hemisphere does certain media better generally. Westerners won't typically do anime better than japanese and japanese won't typically make as many globally successive movies as westerners. Enter the gaming media. Most western games will have more realistic violence or stories that resonate with westerners. Because we are used to that type of media. We grew up with it in movies, news, and everyday life and they have more experience telling stories thru the 1st person view of a character. Where as in japan violence and crime still exist. The country on the whole still holds many old values and dirt is not as widely accepted.

Imo more of lore isn't always better. Most quests in skyrim consist of travelling long distances and the quests themselves are very small in interactivity. I struggle to even find the motivation to finish half the sidequests because of the repetition or grind. I guess I ran into the same issue with XII. Most of the game was spectacular and huge. BUt alot of the grand scope lead to smaller interactivity in quests and lots of filler or padding to be used. Still enjoyed the game immensely on the whole but never looked forward to starting over and trying to max everything. Dark souls deserved to win game of the year in my book. It had a western sandbox type format. But it cut out all the padding and clutter to experience the main plot. It's story was told thru ambience and testing the players skill. You either made the right choices in gear and approach or you died. There was no significant amount of choices storywise besides killing off npcs. Gameplay in it's purest form.

Jrpgs have more tactical depth in their pinky than just about any western rpg. Many of the battle concepts you see today in western or jrpgs were grounded in the foundation jrpgs built. So if you prefer western rpgs more than eastern, that's your right. I prefer games that have more actual interactive real time gameplay in my rpgs. Japanese rpgs will never become exactly the same as western in storytelling. And if they did the choices in gaming would become slimmer.

Maybe alot of you are just not into jrpgs anymore period. And hey that's ok. I used to like rap when I was really young. But I grew out of it.
To me the missing ingredient in the Final Fantasy franchise is Hiroyuki Ito. And to my splendor there is a rumor going around that he may be in charge of FInal Fantasy XV.
For you that don't know him. He was the director of FInal Fantasy VI,IX, and XII. But also responsible for many of the gameplay concepts we have grown to love over the years.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiroyuki_Ito
Some of you may say Sakaguchi or Matsuno. Well maybe or maybe not. But it is very unlikely they will return to Sqaure.
#147 Dec 31 2011 at 5:37 PM Rating: Default
Scholar
***
1,948 posts
Viertel wrote:
Khornette wrote:
And lol that I don't like sandbox. TES and FO has always been my favourite, heck Baldur Gate were there too. The moment Bioware forced us all to be the good guy no matter what personality or allegiance you're trying to give your character, I started to hate their games. So where is this long term consequence that I can be an *** God of Murder at the end like in BG:ToB?

Edited, Dec 31st 2011 8:15am by Khornette


Bolded part pretty much tells me you haven't really played their games. There are these things called alignment, and Bioware has developed their games so that you can pretty much play *ANY* of the major nine alignments up to and including the much vaunted chaotic evil (aka Kefka). The fact that you decided to let people live instead of kill them and chose to go the route of a good guy is a fault with how you played.

And Radiata Story? You seriously herald that as some mythical "really make choices"? All that really is is picking which faction/storyline you're going to pursue once you're finished with an incredibly long prologue. I would hardly herald this as an awe inspiring game because as much as I like Tri-Ace games RS was pretty horrible in the story department on BOTH sides. It's supposed to be this metaphor with how other countries would see another's invasion and conquest (i.e. human nature) and cause you to want to join their side, but poor writing, poor scripting, and poor storyboard choices make it fall flat.

And I didn't say you didn't like sandbox RPGs. Clearly you should take a few lessons in reading comprehension.

Edited, Dec 31st 2011 2:00pm by Viertel


Rofl, you seriously think I didn't play any recent Bioware games? Let's say Mass Effect 1 + 2, both the "alignment" leads to the same stuff, you save the world and you are the hero. The only difference is that one "alignment" makes you a bit more blunt and violent while the other "alignment" makes it more peaceful and persuasive. Evil, where's this mythical evil route in DA:O, DA2 or ME1, 2? Please tell me, where. You always always end up killing the bad guy and saving the world, everyone lives happily ever after except a few minor factions here and there. The end. Kefka is **** bent on destroying the world mind you. At the very least Radiata Story offer you two different route, two sides of a war whereas Bioware games have always pigeon holed you into the role of the hero. FO:NV is the ultimate game with choices, you want to be an ***, take over the game world and crush both those "good" and "bad" sides? Yes you can.

ME3 offers you this action mode where the story will not deviate one tiny bit, that says something about their vision.

Edited, Dec 31st 2011 6:38pm by Khornette
____________________________




#148 Dec 31 2011 at 7:53 PM Rating: Excellent
***
2,010 posts
Oh dear. I guess you missed the part where the reapers wanted to destroy all organic life regardless of allegiance. I mean, if you remember at the end of ME1 and the whole conversation between Jane (for me) and Saren he basically admitted he was getting indoctrinated and he didn't truly believe Sovereign and his ilk was going to let him (or anyone else) live.

Really, you need to actually play the games and pay attention to the story, and then you might understand why it plays out the way it does. Saving the universe doesn't automatically make you a 'good guy', especially if the reasons aren't entirely noble.

After all, there's a reason we can't have *** with Morinth and live to tell about it (though what a ******* way to go).
#149 Dec 31 2011 at 9:32 PM Rating: Default
Scholar
***
1,948 posts
Torrence wrote:
Oh dear. I guess you missed the part where the reapers wanted to destroy all organic life regardless of allegiance. I mean, if you remember at the end of ME1 and the whole conversation between Jane (for me) and Saren he basically admitted he was getting indoctrinated and he didn't truly believe Sovereign and his ilk was going to let him (or anyone else) live.

Really, you need to actually play the games and pay attention to the story, and then you might understand why it plays out the way it does. Saving the universe doesn't automatically make you a 'good guy', especially if the reasons aren't entirely noble.

After all, there's a reason we can't have *** with Morinth and live to tell about it (though what a @#%^ing way to go).


Guess what, Arcanum also had a final boss that want to wipe out all life and you get to side with him, everything wiped out woohoo. That's a Kefka ending for you. Bioware games offer you the illusion of choice, Black Isle/Troika/Obsidian give you a more solid approach to choices. Caesar wanted to make everyone his slaves, sure thing let's help him and then backstab him midway so the Legion has a new Caesar, who is even more **** bent on killing the weak. Mr House is trying to save the Mojave Wasteland and rule it like a God huh, why not **** him over and take it for yourself. What's the result is? FO:NV sold 2m more copies than ME2. Oh and while people are busy bashing FFXIII-2 sales compared to FXIII, guess what DA2 sales compared to DA:O? 1.8m vs 4.4m.

Edited, Dec 31st 2011 10:36pm by Khornette
____________________________




#150 Dec 31 2011 at 11:02 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
***
2,801 posts
Edit: W00t! First post of 2012 on this forum! :D

Quote:
Can someone explain what is so horrible about FFXIII? I don't care if it only sold one copy or a billion. I like it, and can't really recall anything about it that was "bad". And as far as FFVII goes. It was ok, but I liked VIII better. I would pick up a copy if they remade VII but just because I like to see what SE is doing with their FF games. Mind you, I haven't played any of the games released for PSP, as I do not have one.


Well, first understand that liking something is incredibly subjective. I love FFX but there seem to be a number of people who hated it.

1.) The combat system was not fun. You were basically forced to sit there and spam X if you wanted to get 5 stars on any given battle. Granted, you had the opportunity to select what the characters would do it battle, but because that was so much slower than having the computer auto-battle for you, you'd not be able to get 5 stars.

2.) I felt like I was watching a movie and getting to hit X in occasion. It didn't FEEL like I was doing much of anything. I couldn't make choices as to where to go, I couldn't make choices in battle without "losing out" on getting 5 stars, I couldn't choose much of anything. Part of what makes a game a game is the fact that the player gets some choice in what happens. FFXIII took that away from us.

3.) It was a very linear game. In fact, all the console games from FFIX onwards have had this issue (with the exception of FFX-2). This alone isn't enough to hurt a game much for me, but add it on top of a boring battle system, and that I seemed to be watching a movie... It certainly didn't help matters.

4.) I didn't care about the main characters. ****, I didn't even LIKE the main characters. They were all one dimensional emo wannabes with neat hair. That's fine for the secondary characters (to a point), but the main characters? No thank you. I want to see some growth, some passion, something besides, "Oh noes! Event X has happened! We're doomed!" Which is how pretty much every chapter ended.

5.) No minigames. Or rather one minigame which you only get access to at the tail end of the game. And the minigame has you use the worst battle system in an FF game in well over a decade (if not ever). Perhaps I've been spoiled by FF titles of yesteryear, but I like to see some sort of interesting diversion from the main game.

I don't know what more to tell you. If you enjoyed it, good for you. I'm happy someone felt that $50 bucks was a worthwhile investment. I felt like I'd bought a movie where I got to hit X once in a while. To me that isn't worth $50.

Edited, Jan 1st 2012 12:05am by Caia
____________________________
WoW -- Zaia -- Dragonmaw -- Mage 80 BABY! Alchemy 450
Also... Hunter 62, Rogue 52, Warrior 66, Warlock 43, Death Knight 70, Shaman Who Cares? ;)

FFXI -- Caia -- Retired/Deleted -- Blm 75, Alchemy 97
Pandimonium server - Rank 10 - Bastok

Zaela Rdm -- 35, Alchemy 45 -- Forced into retirement because I didn't have the right kind of credit card. Hope it was worth 18 bucks a month, SE.

#151 Jan 01 2012 at 3:04 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
Avatar
**
560 posts
So did anyone find any updated numbers or more specific numbers during the life of this thread?
____________________________


This forum is read only
This Forum is Read Only!
Recent Visitors: 13 All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (13)