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#102 Jan 09 2012 at 7:50 AM Rating: Decent
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still behind WoW in almost every aspect


Nothing will ever compare to wow, thinking otherwise is stupid. Even if they made WoW 2 it would fail.

They make massive amounts of money so they can spend massive amounts of money on the game to improve it, they can afford to get the best development staff, they have a loyal invested massive playerbase built in and most importantly they have MASS amounts (10 years worth of work) of content no other game will ever be able to compete with at launch or for years into their lives.

You don't have to beat WoW to make a good and successfull MMO, FFXI for instance was hugely profitable and spawned FFXIV and indeed their desire to run many more MMOs. It's still successfull, popular and has a big playerbase 10 years later.

You can never use WoW as a measuring stick to new MMOs, it's just stupid to try. The only thing that will kill WoW is being shut down or being unable to replenish it's playerbase as they age, no other title will do it.

The thing with Blizzard is they uderstand the nature of the beast they created, Square never really did and they always thought they could just re-invent the wheel at will.
#103 Jan 09 2012 at 8:57 AM Rating: Decent
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Runespider wrote:
Quote:
still behind WoW in almost every aspect


Nothing will ever compare to wow, thinking otherwise is stupid. Even if they made WoW 2 it would fail.

They make massive amounts of money so they can spend massive amounts of money on the game to improve it, they can afford to get the best development staff, they have a loyal invested massive playerbase built in and most importantly they have MASS amounts (10 years worth of work) of content no other game will ever be able to compete with at launch or for years into their lives.

You don't have to beat WoW to make a good and successfull MMO, FFXI for instance was hugely profitable and spawned FFXIV and indeed their desire to run many more MMOs. It's still successfull, popular and has a big playerbase 10 years later.

You can never use WoW as a measuring stick to new MMOs, it's just stupid to try. The only thing that will kill WoW is being shut down or being unable to replenish it's playerbase as they age, no other title will do it.

The thing with Blizzard is they uderstand the nature of the beast they created, Square never really did and they always thought they could just re-invent the wheel at will.


I think SE is used to being the "it kid" of gaming. They seemed to at one time, I'm guessing, being inventive with their game play and graphics and creative with their stories while at the same time raking in profits. However it seems they are being beat at their own game, hence companies like Blizzard and Bioware.
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#104 Jan 09 2012 at 9:32 AM Rating: Excellent
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WoW is not a game that makes "massive amounts of money so they can spend massive amounts of money on the game to improve it," they've made a game more like FarmVille, where it pulls in money at an amazing rate due its strange, near-universal popularity, and fails to be dublicated because its popularity is somewhat out of their control. The animations, models, textures, music, writing, and sound effects are, by and large, pretty lacklustre, and they'll never improve them - my face will always clip through my shoulderpads, in other words; my arms will always come off my body when I cast a buff or ready my staff.

They don't constantly improve the game, they just know how to make and, above all, promote a game that's not broken - and make it constantly easier, allowing it to attract more and more players. WoW has advertisements on soda, on snacks, on cars, on billboards, on television, in game stores, all across the internet, and even packaged with other games. They hire washed up celebrities to babble about playing their games, and Blizzard hosts its own highly publicized, yearly conference where their MMO is one of the major focal points.

It's marketing, **** it all, marketing! It's what makes an iPod three times the price of any other MP3 player; it's what makes an Alienware twice the price of any other, equally powerful desktop computer! And, when enough people's friends take part in something, the rest follow... and they usually have fun because all their friends are there!
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#105 Jan 09 2012 at 9:54 AM Rating: Decent
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Kane,

Marketing is definitely apart of what can help showcase a product. However things like the iPod and WoW are great products. I can't speak for WoW, I never played it, however the iPod is a great piece of technology, especially when made into an iPhone :D. Also, Apple has great customer service with their products for people like me, who suck at IT and maintaining my own desktop. Not to mention, I can hook my phone or iPod into my car and play it through a stereo :D. And it's UI is easy to use, my 80 year old mother in law has an iPhone and can use it :D it's that easy to use.

So it's not marketing alone, when you have a good product, that works, it will sell at any price. And I'm willing to pay a heft price for an iPhone knowing what sort of service I can expect from Apple and how easy it is to navigate their product.
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#106 Jan 09 2012 at 10:12 AM Rating: Good
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You kind of just proved Kane's point. Most of the competition is just as easy to use, but brand popularity won you over.
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#107 Jan 09 2012 at 10:39 AM Rating: Decent
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Guess you could be right ^_^
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#108 Jan 10 2012 at 7:36 AM Rating: Decent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Azurymber wrote:
the quests have immersive stories. they aren't like ffxiv which is like "go kill 5 of this". A lot of the quests are fun and have interesting and deep storylines. The "kill x of this mob" part is a bonus which you can do for extra exp but don't have to. The quests also take you to interesting places, immerse you in the game, and introduce a lot of lore about the planets, previous war, current situation, etc.


You had me at immerse. Seriously, I'd almost be willing to look past all the major issues with XIV if there was a strong underlying story that made me feel it would be worth the long wait until 2.0 is released.


He was talking about Swotor, there is no such thing as immersion in FFXIV
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#109 Jan 10 2012 at 10:35 AM Rating: Excellent
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KaneKitty wrote:
The animations, models, textures, music, writing, and sound effects are, by and large, pretty lacklustre, and they'll never improve them - my face will always clip through my shoulderpads, in other words; my arms will always come off my body when I cast a buff or ready my staff.


It isn't all that bad for how dated it is. They did add DX11 support and they've improved several aspects of the graphics, but it isn't really a game that needs to look great because it plays great. WoW is a game that got the small things right.

You can pull your weapon out while you're moving. There isn't interface lag when you change targets. You don't get stuck in place when someone casts a spell on you if you are executing an action. If someone else is targeting you, they don't lose focus if you change gear. Small things that don't seem like a big deal, but it's all the 'quality of life' stuff like that which makes for a more enjoyable experience.

Ostia wrote:
He was talking about Swotor, there is no such thing as immersion in FFXIV

That was my point...

Edited, Jan 10th 2012 11:40am by FilthMcNasty
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#110 Jan 10 2012 at 1:49 PM Rating: Good
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UltKnightGrover wrote:
You kind of just proved Kane's point. Most of the competition is just as easy to use, but brand popularity won you over.


eh, speaking as someone who has been trying to use ANYTHING but an ipod... yeah, pretty much everything else is lacking. Either the design sucks, it doesn't organize files right, playlists don't work, interface is poopy etc.

Ever since I dropped my ipod in a bowl of water and killed it I've been trying to find something else that is just as good.

Does anyone have suggestions? Because I'm pretty close to just giving up and getting another one (so far I've only resisted since they made nanos touch screen, which I am meh about)
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#111 Jan 10 2012 at 1:55 PM Rating: Good
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KaneKitty wrote:
Buttsniffa wrote:
Rinsui wrote:
****, you gotta grow some balls and get yourself a real girlfriend.


I've tried, they're too expensive. I'll just wait till they let us get married in-game.


They're not too expensive, you're just not finding the right ones. All my wife costs me is the first choice of rares when we open Magic: The Gathering boosters. >_>


yeah my girlfriend says if I bought her jewelry she'd break up with me. Sweet. /cheapdate
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#112 Jan 10 2012 at 2:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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5 years ago there were plenty of good iPod competitors. These days? I checked Amazon a few weeks ago and didn't see anything that looked like a serious competitor besides the Sonys, which I'm assuming have far less functional software than Apple (Sony makes great games and some good electronics, but their computer and web interfaces are garbage).

So few people are buying dedicated MP3 players these days. Even the supposedly "audiophile" Cowons look 10 years out of date (and are priced that way). I gotta be honest, my old-gen iPod Nano (which I just gave to my kids) still looks and works awesome. I don't love iTunes, but it's good enough. I used to think FLAC was where it was at until I got tired of manually organizing MP3s and started listening to most of my music at the computer on Spotify. For me, an iPod is good enough for music on the go until I get a phone that can handle music streaming.

That's how WoW is for me--good enough until a true next-gen MMO takes root. I used to think FFXIV was that MMO, but then I realized I was confusing next-gen with ex-gen.
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#113 Jan 10 2012 at 3:24 PM Rating: Excellent
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Olorinus wrote:


yeah my girlfriend says if I bought her jewelry she'd break up with me. Sweet. /cheapdate


I tried to get out of buying someone jewelry once, but got told 'you get what you pay for'. **** materialistic people.
#114 Jan 10 2012 at 5:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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Torrence wrote:
Olorinus wrote:


yeah my girlfriend says if I bought her jewelry she'd break up with me. Sweet. /cheapdate


I tried to get out of buying someone jewelry once, but got told 'you get what you pay for'. **** materialistic people.


Yeah she doesn't really like the stuff that gold/jewel mining companies do in developing countries (murdering people/polluting the environment etc)

the solution to your jewelry buying woes is to date an environmentalist/human rights activist.
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#115 Jan 10 2012 at 5:53 PM Rating: Good
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Hehe, my husband buys me games. Of course he then sighs heavily whenever I abandon him to go play one...
#116 Jan 10 2012 at 8:52 PM Rating: Decent
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Olorinus wrote:
Torrence wrote:
Olorinus wrote:


yeah my girlfriend says if I bought her jewelry she'd break up with me. Sweet. /cheapdate


I tried to get out of buying someone jewelry once, but got told 'you get what you pay for'. **** materialistic people.


Yeah she doesn't really like the stuff that gold/jewel mining companies do in developing countries (murdering people/polluting the environment etc)

the solution to your jewelry buying woes is to date an environmentalist/human rights activist.


*raises hand to vouche for said gf* Yep I'm one of those :D My husband got lucky with me :D. He will buy me jewelry, which is nice and thoughtful, but not necesary, and TBH, I hesitate as to where he purchased it, wondering if the company that made the piece bought their supplies from one of those types of companies...I really don't want to tear "blood diamonds". It's just...wrong... :/

I'l happy with video games as Yelta said :D (Nice to see another female gamer), however my husband does the same as hers...sighs heavily when I abandon him for long periods of time to enjoy my game :D

Hehehehe :D <3 my husband :)
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#117 Jan 10 2012 at 9:24 PM Rating: Decent
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Azurymber wrote:
Theonehio wrote:
bsphil wrote:
tpgsoldier wrote:
Dude they have only had however long the game was in development + 16 months to figure out a billing system. Give them some time!

You act like every other MMO in the world handles this issue without a problem!
The crazy thing is that this is exactly how SWTOR is going down right now. It's a mess.

How can so many big companies ***** up the MMO formula?


Catering to the:

1. "I WANT EVERYTHING ON A SILVER PLATTER!"
2. "I ONLY HAVE 10 MINUTE A DAY TO PLAY AN MMORPG, MAKE CONTENT USELESS"
3. "WHY DO I HAVE TO BE SOCIAL? I WANT TO SOLO FROM THE DAY I BEGIN TO THE DAY THE SERVERS GO OFFLINE!"
4. "IF I ABOLUTELY MUST GROUP IT BETTER BE NO MORE THAN 3 PEOPLE!"
5. "EVERYTHING SHOULD BE INSTANCED, OPEN WORLD CONTENT IS OUTDATED AND IF YOU DO IT YOURE A TERRIBLE DEVELOPER!"
6. "IF BATTLE TAKE LONGER THAN 5 SECONDS YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG!"
7. "I NEED TO LEVEL FROM START TO FINISH THROUGH QUESTING..GOD HELP YOU IF I EVER HAVE TO GRIND!"
8. "I NEED ABSOLUTE FREEDOM IN EVERYTHING..BALANCE BE DAMNED!"

Playerbase. This is why there's no longer good MMORPGs coming out.

Edited, Jan 8th 2012 9:13am by Theonehio

Edited, Jan 8th 2012 9:36am by Theonehio


nothing wrong with a lot of these demands. Games should be balanced so you can solo or group up and level a bit faster. And questing to max level is epic. Why would you play a game to grind? I mean factory workers complain about doing the same repetitive task every day, so why would anyone want to do that in a game in their free time? I'm sure some people that like grinding the same mobs for 40 hours straight do get enjoyment from hitting the same buttons over and over and over again, but most people don't.

SWTOR did an amazing job with their leveling system. If you group up you level faster. if you solo you get to experiance an amazing story which is what rpgs are all about.


Grinding builds character, something all of us need more of. I can't walk into stores saying, "Why can't I have all of this stuff w/o working for it?"
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#118 Jan 10 2012 at 9:42 PM Rating: Good
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nakuMARMADUKE wrote:
Azurymber wrote:
Theonehio wrote:
bsphil wrote:
tpgsoldier wrote:
Dude they have only had however long the game was in development + 16 months to figure out a billing system. Give them some time!

You act like every other MMO in the world handles this issue without a problem!
The crazy thing is that this is exactly how SWTOR is going down right now. It's a mess.

How can so many big companies ***** up the MMO formula?


Catering to the:

1. "I WANT EVERYTHING ON A SILVER PLATTER!"
2. "I ONLY HAVE 10 MINUTE A DAY TO PLAY AN MMORPG, MAKE CONTENT USELESS"
3. "WHY DO I HAVE TO BE SOCIAL? I WANT TO SOLO FROM THE DAY I BEGIN TO THE DAY THE SERVERS GO OFFLINE!"
4. "IF I ABOLUTELY MUST GROUP IT BETTER BE NO MORE THAN 3 PEOPLE!"
5. "EVERYTHING SHOULD BE INSTANCED, OPEN WORLD CONTENT IS OUTDATED AND IF YOU DO IT YOURE A TERRIBLE DEVELOPER!"
6. "IF BATTLE TAKE LONGER THAN 5 SECONDS YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG!"
7. "I NEED TO LEVEL FROM START TO FINISH THROUGH QUESTING..GOD HELP YOU IF I EVER HAVE TO GRIND!"
8. "I NEED ABSOLUTE FREEDOM IN EVERYTHING..BALANCE BE DAMNED!"

Playerbase. This is why there's no longer good MMORPGs coming out.

Edited, Jan 8th 2012 9:13am by Theonehio

Edited, Jan 8th 2012 9:36am by Theonehio


nothing wrong with a lot of these demands. Games should be balanced so you can solo or group up and level a bit faster. And questing to max level is epic. Why would you play a game to grind? I mean factory workers complain about doing the same repetitive task every day, so why would anyone want to do that in a game in their free time? I'm sure some people that like grinding the same mobs for 40 hours straight do get enjoyment from hitting the same buttons over and over and over again, but most people don't.

SWTOR did an amazing job with their leveling system. If you group up you level faster. if you solo you get to experiance an amazing story which is what rpgs are all about.


Grinding builds character, something all of us need more of. I can't walk into stores saying, "Why can't I have all of this stuff w/o working for it?"


It doesn't build character. It's just how 1.0 hard-tards convince themselves their e-peen is the biggest. If you ACTUALLY get enjoyment out of killing the same mob over and over and over again, it's your fee for the month and enjoy. But, the overwhelming majority of gamers have moved on and don't have 15,000 unemployed hours to spend on mindless grinding.
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#119 Jan 10 2012 at 10:11 PM Rating: Good
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nakuMARMADUKE wrote:
Azurymber wrote:
Theonehio wrote:
bsphil wrote:
tpgsoldier wrote:
Dude they have only had however long the game was in development + 16 months to figure out a billing system. Give them some time!

You act like every other MMO in the world handles this issue without a problem!
The crazy thing is that this is exactly how SWTOR is going down right now. It's a mess.

How can so many big companies ***** up the MMO formula?


Catering to the:

1. "I WANT EVERYTHING ON A SILVER PLATTER!"
2. "I ONLY HAVE 10 MINUTE A DAY TO PLAY AN MMORPG, MAKE CONTENT USELESS"
3. "WHY DO I HAVE TO BE SOCIAL? I WANT TO SOLO FROM THE DAY I BEGIN TO THE DAY THE SERVERS GO OFFLINE!"
4. "IF I ABOLUTELY MUST GROUP IT BETTER BE NO MORE THAN 3 PEOPLE!"
5. "EVERYTHING SHOULD BE INSTANCED, OPEN WORLD CONTENT IS OUTDATED AND IF YOU DO IT YOURE A TERRIBLE DEVELOPER!"
6. "IF BATTLE TAKE LONGER THAN 5 SECONDS YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG!"
7. "I NEED TO LEVEL FROM START TO FINISH THROUGH QUESTING..GOD HELP YOU IF I EVER HAVE TO GRIND!"
8. "I NEED ABSOLUTE FREEDOM IN EVERYTHING..BALANCE BE DAMNED!"

Playerbase. This is why there's no longer good MMORPGs coming out.

Edited, Jan 8th 2012 9:13am by Theonehio

Edited, Jan 8th 2012 9:36am by Theonehio


nothing wrong with a lot of these demands. Games should be balanced so you can solo or group up and level a bit faster. And questing to max level is epic. Why would you play a game to grind? I mean factory workers complain about doing the same repetitive task every day, so why would anyone want to do that in a game in their free time? I'm sure some people that like grinding the same mobs for 40 hours straight do get enjoyment from hitting the same buttons over and over and over again, but most people don't.

SWTOR did an amazing job with their leveling system. If you group up you level faster. if you solo you get to experiance an amazing story which is what rpgs are all about.


Grinding builds character, something all of us need more of. I can't walk into stores saying, "Why can't I have all of this stuff w/o working for it?"


Grinding doesn't build character. Being a survivor of a tragic event builds character, working hard at a job or in college builds character, if one chooses to become a parent builds character (and proves one is very massochistic :P). Not sitting in front of a computer screen for hours on end repeating the same action with one set of pixels to another...that's just...almost brainless, which is fine if one needs some brainless activity from a day of hard character building. However, comparing character building to grinding is insulting.

Sorry, don't mean to come off as rude, it's just...not the same.

Edited, Jan 10th 2012 11:11pm by LillithaFenimore
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#120 Jan 11 2012 at 12:34 AM Rating: Good
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How is learning your class/macros/combo placements/battle strategies and whatnot during this "everlasting grind" of yours not character building? Sure you can switch to a crafting job and hit enter a billion times but even those classes have little clues in them to help produce better outcomes. When I get to go to a sweet new area because i had fun in some parties and got a job or 2 to 50....i feel proud to be there. Your view of gaming must be different than mine i suppose.
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#121 Jan 11 2012 at 1:06 AM Rating: Decent
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Grinding builds character

So I guess all those Bangladeshi children factory workers are the pinnacle of enlightenment.
Poor me.
#122 Jan 11 2012 at 4:16 AM Rating: Decent
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Rinsui wrote:
Quote:
Grinding builds character

So I guess all those Bangladeshi children factory workers are the pinnacle of enlightenment.
Poor me.


I don't really agree with the 'builds character' remark myself (although putting some effort in something does show some willpower and character yes), but do you really want to compare playing a game out of free will with kids in Bangladesh who are forced to work in a children's factory?

Please! You have had more than 1,000 posts to get this retarded forum disease that makes people come up with crazy stuff like that out of your system. Talk normal please.
#123 Jan 11 2012 at 6:39 AM Rating: Excellent
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nakuMARMADUKE wrote:
How is learning your class/macros/combo placements/battle strategies and whatnot during this "everlasting grind" of yours not character building?


"I volunteer at my local animal shelter every week."

"I've been married for 10 years."

"I'm close to earning my master's degree."

"I play an online video game that requires a monthly fee in which I endlessly kill virtual monsters."
#124 Jan 11 2012 at 9:34 AM Rating: Decent
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I hate topics like these. They bring the worst out of people. Myself included. One last thing, I'm talking about in-game character.

Edited, Jan 11th 2012 10:35am by nakuMARMADUKE
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#125 Jan 11 2012 at 9:42 AM Rating: Good
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nakuMARMADUKE wrote:
How is learning your class/macros/combo placements/battle strategies and whatnot during this "everlasting grind" of yours not character building? Sure you can switch to a crafting job and hit enter a billion times but even those classes have little clues in them to help produce better outcomes. When I get to go to a sweet new area because i had fun in some parties and got a job or 2 to 50....i feel proud to be there. Your view of gaming must be different than mine i suppose.


nakuMARMADUKE wrote:
I hate topics like these. They bring the worst out of people. Myself included. One last thing, I'm talking about in-game character.

Edited, Jan 11th 2012 10:35am by nakuMARMADUKE


what battle strategies? you go out in a party with or without a powerleveler and you spam the same 2 abilities 100000 times on raptors. This game has never had tactics or strategy or a need for macros when leveling up at any point in time. If it was like FFXI then fine, I could see the merit in a complex strategy based team leveling system. But its not. Fastest way to level is to down mobs in 20 seconds and that 20 seconds isn't really time for any strategy. I've seen people go from 1 to 50 in under a week. And they had no clue what half their abilities did by the end, cuz its honestly not necessary to know.
And what new areas? the game is like 5 areas and 3 dungeons (really its 7 dungeons but they recycle the look). And you could honestly level from 1-50 without ever leaving one of the starter zones.
#126 Jan 11 2012 at 10:03 AM Rating: Decent
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nvm

Edited, Jan 11th 2012 11:18am by nakuMARMADUKE
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#127 Jan 11 2012 at 10:30 PM Rating: Default
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Heres a thought for some of you clowns to think about. Did you ever think there are wounded Vet's and people with bedridden illnesses cancer etc..that maybe cant have the normal life that you enjoy? So what are you saying we are less of people because we don't have all those things you take for granted? If it weren't for gaming most of us would have no social interaction outside our families. Gaming for us opened a whole world where we could be on an equal playing field at long last and be looked at normally.Shoot some of us back in old Everquest times were even looked up to. I mean it actually meant something to reach cap and take out that Dragon. Was it a grind? **** yeah! but you built a strong bond with the people you grouped with and they depended on you everyday. Shoot we still are friends after all these years. You wont find that much in today's MMO's.

I certainly understand most of you could care less about grinding, or spending x amount of time,or interacting with anyone,or thinking. They created WoW for you people and every game afterward because you wanted that. Well now you have it,then you complain after 2 weeks playing there's nothing to do?! I don't have a problem with WoWified MMOs I just have a problem that all of them are like that. Don't give me the BS that this is what most people want because we have been getting it since WoW's release and guess what? None of those games have thrived or came close to doing better then WoW. I think it's time to get back to basics maybe not as Hardcore as EQ was but more community dependent and more strategy involved. Back also to risk versus reward. Bigger the risk better reward but failure should hurt too. Like in life we learn from our mistakes, unfortunately sometimes they hurt but it makes winning that much sweeter.

I agree with Naku and I know many who do also. I get upset though when people tend to stereotype everyone who spends large amount of time playing an MMO as dumb or a loser. I mean YOU are playing for whatever amount of time and if your life is so freaking all important than gaming then why are you playing at all?! There are some of us who play MMOs and take them seriously and enjoy a certain difficulty level we aren't wrong or losers nor are you for wanting quick and easy. It is just a matter of opinion and playstyle. There will always be casuals, and hardcore, noobs ,and Elites, thats all ok. Why can't they just produce games for different playstyles instead of just 1 style? It's the culture we live in. Like Reality shows 1 makes it mainstream and makes a load a cash, and now theres a bazillion! Everytime something is a hit we are saturated with it!I had hoped WoW copy MMO's would have petered out by now but unfortunately not. I continue to keep my fingers crossed.

Oh and I agree with the OP heading . This game destroyed itself and is the tombstone of the FF saga. I played the first to the last though and am sad it ended this way.
#128 Jan 12 2012 at 12:45 AM Rating: Excellent
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I think as far as the grind goes, players as a whole have realized that they'd rather be enjoying themselves most of the time, when compared to doing repetitive tasks most of the time in order to build your character, and then enjoying yourself some of the time when you're not. There's nothing wrong with a game having steady character progression, but the progression must be enjoyable enough that you don't even know you're grinding. How to make your game fun is completely up to the developers, but once people get a taste of an enjoyable game, it's difficult to get them motivated to "grind" through a boring one.
#129 Jan 12 2012 at 1:32 AM Rating: Excellent
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Olorinus wrote:

eh, speaking as someone who has been trying to use ANYTHING but an ipod... yeah, pretty much everything else is lacking. Either the design sucks, it doesn't organize files right, playlists don't work, interface is poopy etc.

Ever since I dropped my ipod in a bowl of water and killed it I've been trying to find something else that is just as good.

Does anyone have suggestions? Because I'm pretty close to just giving up and getting another one (so far I've only resisted since they made nanos touch screen, which I am meh about)


Might be late on this one. And you might not even like it because the UI on it while not "poopy" is no where near as silky as the iPod UI (it works, its just a bit stuttery as if it needs a bit more RAM/CPU etc).

That said, the Creative X-Fi 2 is the best sounding player I've used to date. I highly rate it. It is a lot cheaper than similarly sized iPods and, if you can fill the 64GB version (or buy a smaller version) it has an SD slot you can expand into anyway.
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#130 Jan 12 2012 at 10:07 AM Rating: Good
On the topic of where the game is going, I have one question:

How long will SE continue to finance FFXIV?

It's not currently being paid for entirely through subscriptions. I doubt they have made enough to cover development costs to date. I also doubt that subscriptions are even paying for server upkeep at this time. I suspect they are continuing to lose money each month.

If I had to guess, there a few wealthy Japanese FF fans begging SE to continue developing this game and subsidizing the losses to the company (I know the official company line, but suspect this is closer to the truth). Perhaps someone will attempt to spell out the math on the current population vs. past and current dev costs.

I'm afraid that Ver 2.0 will NOT herald in an era of FFXIV success. Shortly after Ver 2.0, SE will have fairly solid data with which to forecast the future finacial success (or not) of FFXIV.

Considering these factors, I fear the title of this thread is aptly named.
#131 Jan 12 2012 at 11:58 AM Rating: Excellent
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SmashingtonWho wrote:
On the topic of where the game is going, I have one question:

How long will SE continue to finance FFXIV?

It's not currently being paid for entirely through subscriptions. I doubt they have made enough to cover development costs to date. I also doubt that subscriptions are even paying for server upkeep at this time. I suspect they are continuing to lose money each month.

If I had to guess, there a few wealthy Japanese FF fans begging SE to continue developing this game and subsidizing the losses to the company (I know the official company line, but suspect this is closer to the truth). Perhaps someone will attempt to spell out the math on the current population vs. past and current dev costs.

I'm afraid that Ver 2.0 will NOT herald in an era of FFXIV success. Shortly after Ver 2.0, SE will have fairly solid data with which to forecast the future finacial success (or not) of FFXIV.

Considering these factors, I fear the title of this thread is aptly named.


With regard to the initial and ongoing cost of the game, we only have vague guesses, as far as I know, and so that's what I'll attempt to provide. Of course, nothing I say is anywhere near definitive, and I invite others to supplement what I post.

That said, if we assume SE's "somewhere around 100 people working on FFXIV" is correct, and assume that each of those people makes the modest salary of about 35k per year, then upkeep and development only since release, and not counting servers and initial development, has cost SE ~$3.5 million. With a total number of initial copies sold somewhere in the 300k range, assuming SE makes a very generous profit from each box (like, around $35 pure profit), then they have made somewhere around $10.5 million.

But, since we believe that the game had been in development for a number of years (anywhere between 3~5), then we can assume that the salaries of the team (again, ~3.5 million each year) ate up all of that and then some. The amount gained from monthly fees, assuming about 15k players, is ~150 thousand dollars thus far - a proverbial drop in the ocean.

In short: the continuing salaries of the team, plus server upkeep, and initial development costs very likely cost more than SE has earned thus far; I never factored in such things as temporary employees (e.g., voice actors, motion capture technicians), and I think that I exaggerated the net profit per box at the same time I undersold the salaries of all of SE's workers. So, in reality, SE is probably still millions away from even breaking even. And the longer they keep it up, the more they lose; even even 100 times more people were to join, it would still probably take a few months to recuperate the losses. Honestly, though, I don't think SE has lost too much by way of simple investments and salaries in this game alone: I think the damage caused by FFXIV's poor release and ongoing reputation will ultimately cost them a much greater amount - in investors, in budgets for other games, in lower sales as customers become wary - as time goes on.
____________________________
"... he called to himself a wizard, named Gallery, hoping by this means to escape the paying of the fifteen hundred crowns..." (Machen 15)

"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#132 Jan 12 2012 at 1:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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Freedom4all wrote:
wall of text


hi guy... peeps who want to play video games 12 hours a day should sub to more than 1 mmo or play some offline games in addition to their mmo. There is no need for every mmo to be horribly grindy and un-entertaining for people with jobs and other hobbies just so that people with no arms and no legs can play 12 hours a day on a single game.

the game should be tuned so that an average player is always just unable to quite have everything finished. I have no problem with some ridiculous thing being added on for people with no other lives to grind away on, as long as it doesn't upset game balance (ie, it isn't overpowered)

mini-games are actually a great way to provide content for people with time to **** away, without detracting from the playability for everyone else.


Edited, Jan 12th 2012 11:37am by Olorinus
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#133 Jan 12 2012 at 1:32 PM Rating: Good
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Kordain wrote:
awesome suggestion


thanks! (I still haven't bought a music player - was going to try cloudsound on my berry - if that works it will solve my problems
____________________________
lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#134 Jan 12 2012 at 9:02 PM Rating: Decent
16 posts
Olorinus wrote:
Freedom4all wrote:
wall of text


hi guy... peeps who want to play video games 12 hours a day should sub to more than 1 mmo or play some offline games in addition to their mmo. There is no need for every mmo to be horribly grindy and un-entertaining for people with jobs and other hobbies just so that people with no arms and no legs can play 12 hours a day on a single game.

the game should be tuned so that an average player is always just unable to quite have everything finished. I have no problem with some ridiculous thing being added on for people with no other lives to grind away on, as long as it doesn't upset game balance (ie, it isn't overpowered)

mini-games are actually a great way to provide content for people with time to **** away, without detracting from the playability for everyone else.


Edited, Jan 12th 2012 11:37am by Olorinus


Please refrain from telling me how I should play, I never told you how you should play. Already I see I'm dealing with a narcissist.

Sorry, you failed at reading comprehension. Every MMO out now is quite the opposite of grindy unless you find getting to cap level in two weeks (avg for most games) grindy. If you do maybe try "Angry birds" thats pretty fast and you will still have your awesomely valuable time. My point which I expressed pretty clearly was why all games since WoW had to be easy mode. I certainly understand people like you need them, but why does every game have to be that way? All I was asking for was 1 fkn game with a little higher difficulty. I get you can't hang but you have tons of options,unlike me.
#135 Jan 12 2012 at 9:07 PM Rating: Excellent
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Freedom4all wrote:
Olorinus wrote:
Freedom4all wrote:
wall of text


hi guy... peeps who want to play video games 12 hours a day should sub to more than 1 mmo or play some offline games in addition to their mmo. There is no need for every mmo to be horribly grindy and un-entertaining for people with jobs and other hobbies just so that people with no arms and no legs can play 12 hours a day on a single game.

the game should be tuned so that an average player is always just unable to quite have everything finished. I have no problem with some ridiculous thing being added on for people with no other lives to grind away on, as long as it doesn't upset game balance (ie, it isn't overpowered)

mini-games are actually a great way to provide content for people with time to **** away, without detracting from the playability for everyone else.


Edited, Jan 12th 2012 11:37am by Olorinus


Please refrain from telling me how I should play, I never told you how you should play. Already I see I'm dealing with a narcissist.

Sorry, you failed at reading comprehension. Every MMO out now is quite the opposite of grindy unless you find getting to cap level in two weeks (avg for most games) grindy. If you do maybe try "Angry birds" thats pretty fast and you will still have your awesomely valuable time. My point which I expressed pretty clearly was why all games since WoW had to be easy mode. I certainly understand people like you need them, but why does every game have to be that way? All I was asking for was 1 fkn game with a little higher difficulty. I get you can't hang but you have tons of options,unlike me.


Grind isn't difficult. In fact, it's the easiest thing any programmer can do in a game.

"Hey, instead of actually finding challenging, difficult and entertaining things for them to do in sequence, we'll just design a dozen monsters and make them kill them over and over endlessly! We get to do so much less work, yay!"

...You were saying?
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#136 Jan 12 2012 at 9:58 PM Rating: Good
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2,202 posts
Freedom4all wrote:
Olorinus wrote:
Freedom4all wrote:
wall of text


hi guy... peeps who want to play video games 12 hours a day should sub to more than 1 mmo or play some offline games in addition to their mmo. There is no need for every mmo to be horribly grindy and un-entertaining for people with jobs and other hobbies just so that people with no arms and no legs can play 12 hours a day on a single game.

the game should be tuned so that an average player is always just unable to quite have everything finished. I have no problem with some ridiculous thing being added on for people with no other lives to grind away on, as long as it doesn't upset game balance (ie, it isn't overpowered)

mini-games are actually a great way to provide content for people with time to **** away, without detracting from the playability for everyone else.


Edited, Jan 12th 2012 11:37am by Olorinus


Please refrain from telling me how I should play, I never told you how you should play. Already I see I'm dealing with a narcissist.

Sorry, you failed at reading comprehension. Every MMO out now is quite the opposite of grindy unless you find getting to cap level in two weeks (avg for most games) grindy. If you do maybe try "Angry birds" thats pretty fast and you will still have your awesomely valuable time. My point which I expressed pretty clearly was why all games since WoW had to be easy mode. I certainly understand people like you need them, but why does every game have to be that way? All I was asking for was 1 fkn game with a little higher difficulty. I get you can't hang but you have tons of options,unlike me.


Timesink do not equals difficulty, when will the EQ/FFXI crew move on already ?
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#137 Jan 13 2012 at 12:25 AM Rating: Excellent
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542 posts
Freedom4all wrote:
Olorinus wrote:
Freedom4all wrote:
wall of text


hi guy... peeps who want to play video games 12 hours a day should sub to more than 1 mmo or play some offline games in addition to their mmo. There is no need for every mmo to be horribly grindy and un-entertaining for people with jobs and other hobbies just so that people with no arms and no legs can play 12 hours a day on a single game.

the game should be tuned so that an average player is always just unable to quite have everything finished. I have no problem with some ridiculous thing being added on for people with no other lives to grind away on, as long as it doesn't upset game balance (ie, it isn't overpowered)

mini-games are actually a great way to provide content for people with time to **** away, without detracting from the playability for everyone else.


Edited, Jan 12th 2012 11:37am by Olorinus


Please refrain from telling me how I should play, I never told you how you should play. Already I see I'm dealing with a narcissist.

Sorry, you failed at reading comprehension. Every MMO out now is quite the opposite of grindy unless you find getting to cap level in two weeks (avg for most games) grindy. If you do maybe try "Angry birds" thats pretty fast and you will still have your awesomely valuable time. My point which I expressed pretty clearly was why all games since WoW had to be easy mode. I certainly understand people like you need them, but why does every game have to be that way? All I was asking for was 1 fkn game with a little higher difficulty. I get you can't hang but you have tons of options,unlike me.


I'm sure developers would love to make grindy games if people would put up with them. I can't imagine anything easier than intentionally slowing the pace of a game to a crawl so that a game with very little content can last hundreds of thousands of hours because of all the repetition involved. As I mentioned in my earlier post, the reason grindy games aren't prominent any more is because there are alternatives that are more enjoyable, making the market for boring games a small one.

EDIT: Just want to point out I find it laughable that you imply that people who don't want to put up with grindy games "can't hang," as if performing the same task repetitively in a video game was a test of anything significant. I wonder if you'd apply the same to real life tasks. Let's say there's a certain type of math equation you'd like to learn. I give you 30 problems and you solve every one correctly. Chances are you've got it down, but I'm going to ask you to do about 5,000 more problems just so you have to waste more time on it. What, you mean you'd rather be doing something more meaningful than the exact same thing over and over again? Hey, it's not my fault you can't hang!

Edited, Jan 13th 2012 1:35am by Susanoh
#138 Jan 13 2012 at 1:23 AM Rating: Good
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To those who hate "the grind" in games I ask whether there is a reason to have levels or character progression at all. Since incremental character progression is really just a thin mask of a steady grind, and there's no difficulty in simply fighting monsters while gaining a new ability every 3~5 levels, why not remove it? Equipment, as well, is a matter of repeating a task - whether it's farming, crafting, listing things for sale, or repeatedly beating a boss to earn a rare drop / enough points - why not remove it, as well?

The only way for a game to offer a true challenge (that is, to be difficult) is for it to test strategy and speed - mental prowess and dexterity, skills that one must hone in order to progress - and both of those traits are considerably lessened with such things as equipment and levels.

You need a grind, you need something to grant the feeling of steady progress, otherwise you have a very short game. Just because some people like their necessary incremental progress to last longer than you doesn't mean they should come under such fire; a time sink itself may not be difficult, but getting through it is - you have to push yourself, your tolerance, your patience, and really test your persistence; and then, at the end of it all, you feel great.

In fact, that's what just about anything is in life: any accomplishment, any challenge. Whether it's learning how to play a violin, studying for an exam, or training for a race, it's always about persistent, repetitive tasks which, in themselves, are usually not very difficult. But over time you hone your responses, quicken your reflexes, and stick with a set of actions that is usually, in itself, pretty boring (such as practising scales on the violin, up and down, over and over, time and time again, for example). This repetition - also called practice - is something many others abandon, but you can persist and come out with a sense of accomplishment.

Life is a grind, man; it's sometimes be better masked than an MMO - slightly - but, even then, the veil can't change what it is in essence. We grind everything, and some people like to climb mountains instead of drive to a theatre... what the heck!?

¯\(º_ o)/¯

Edited, Jan 15th 2012 3:52pm by KaneKitty
____________________________
"... he called to himself a wizard, named Gallery, hoping by this means to escape the paying of the fifteen hundred crowns..." (Machen 15)

"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#139 Jan 13 2012 at 2:07 AM Rating: Excellent
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KaneKitty wrote:
To those who hate "the grind" in games I ask whether there is a reason to have levels or character progression at all. Since incremental character progression is really just a thin mask of a steady grind, and there's no difficulty in simply fighting monsters while gaining a new ability every 3~5 levels, why not remove it? Equipment, as well, is a matter of repeating a task - whether it's farming, crafting, listing things for sale, or repeatedly beating a boss to earn a rare drop / enough points - why not remove it, as well?

The only way for a game to offer a true challenge (that is, to be difficult) is for it to test strategy and speed - mental prowess and dexterity, skills that one must hone in order to progress - and both of those traits are considerably lessened with such things as equipment and levels.

You need a grind, you need something to grant the feeling of steady progress, otherwise you have a very short game. Just because some people like their necessary incremental progress to last longer than you doesn't mean they should come under such fire; a time sink itself may not be difficult, but getting through it is - you have to push yourself, your tolerance, your patience, and really test your persistence; and then, at the end of it all, you feel great.

In fact, that's what just about anything is in life: any accomplishment, any challenge. Whether it's learning how to play a violin, studying for an exam, or training for a race, it's always about persistent, repetitive tasks which, in themselves, are usually not very difficult. But over time you hone your responses, quicken your reflexes, and stick with a set of actions that is usually, in itself, pretty boring (such as practising scales on the violin, up and down, over and over, time and time again, for example). This repetition - also called practice - is something many others abandon, but you can persist and come out with a sense of accomplishment.

Life is a grind, man; it's sometimes be better masked than an MMO - slightly - but, even then, the veil can't change what it is in essence. We grind everything, and some people like to climb mountains instead of drive to a theatre... what the heck!? ¯\(º_ o)/¯


Life may be a grind, but people don't play video games to simulate life... mostly. They do it to escape Life's grind.
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#140 Jan 13 2012 at 4:13 AM Rating: Excellent
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I'm not against character progression in MMOs, but I do think that character progression should be enjoyable enough that players feel like they're playing the game the entire time, and progressing as they play, rather than feeling as though they need to grind first, then play the game later.

To use an example of enjoyable character progression, I'm going to point to Abyssea in FFXI. Abyssea is filled to the brim with powerful atmas, atmacite, AF upgrade items, job specific equipment, unique weapons, you name it. Some would argue that it had a few negative side effects to the overall game (I wouldn't disagree with that completely either) but one thing is for sure, a great many really enjoyed themselves! There's plenty to do, and apart from emp weapons, you never have to do the same one thing for too long. I wouldn't call it the perfect MMO model or anything, but it's certainly an example of a way to have steady character progression that people like doing rather than feel like they have to force themselves to.

For an example of a bad grind, a think a shining example would be crafting in this very game. It is just painfully slow and uneventful. Back when I played, I didn't know anyone who crafted without doing something else at the same time just to quell their boredom. If I were to use a combat related example, I think I'd go with Trial of the Magians from FFXI. Kill x weak bunnies on Firesday. Kill y weak slimes during thunder weather. A system put in place to give players busy work that added no actual content whatsoever.

tldr: Character progression is fine. Make it fun.

On a side note, I do think an MMO with no numbered levels could work. I'm not the most seasoned MMO player so I don't know if it's been done or not, but I do know that there are games out there where the leveling process is a fairly short one and people continue to play at top level for quite a while. With that in mind, a game that started everyone at the same "level" with progression being purely stat upgrades, items, abilities, maybe special powers granted through completing content (bosses, quests, whatever). It'd have the bonus of friends who join being able to join you in combat, and although they'd be weaker, they wouldn't be puny level 1s with 30 HP doing 0 to every difficult mob in the game (think 30 damage per swing instead of 60, as a rough example off the top of my head). If something like this hasn't been done yet, I expect it to eventually.
#141 Jan 13 2012 at 9:26 AM Rating: Good
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I was addressing the topic of difficulty and grinding, not only the subjective idea of fun, though. I meant to point out that nearly everything one can do, whether in a game or out of it, generally consists of series of repetitive tasks that, in themselves, are neither necessarily challenging nor inherently enjoyable.

Most people were claiming that "the grind" constituted a complete lack of difficulty, but I was pointing out that grinds themselves exist as primary parts of other skills that we would call difficult, and that a test of one's tolerance, persistence, determination, and patience is, really, no less valid a difficulty than a test of one's physical endurance or strength.

I don't disagree that things in games should be fun (whatever fun means), but I do think that grinding is written off by individuals who cannot or otherwise do not want to get through it as utterly valueless or empty when, in reality, a grind is a legitimate source of challenge that creates a sense of investment and fosters an eventual sense of accomplishment - it just puts slightly different skills to the test.
____________________________
"... he called to himself a wizard, named Gallery, hoping by this means to escape the paying of the fifteen hundred crowns..." (Machen 15)

"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#142 Jan 13 2012 at 10:04 AM Rating: Excellent
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Regardless of the degree of the grind in the game, there has to be milestones and something to progress toward so as to keep player interest in the game - especially in MMORPGs. This is where FFXIV currently falls flat.

Personal preference will decide the type of grind a player prefers, and the degree to which they accept in a game, so there is no right or wrong answer there. Be it gameplay like WoW, FFXI, LOTRO or SW:TOR - it just comes down to what you find enjoyable, arguments surrounding which is the best or right gameplay experience for MMOs are immaterial.

But games must have that carrot on a stick effect for any hope of sustainability, and right now it's a rotten turnip in FFXIV. The notable accomplishments and rewarding activities are too few and far between to provide any sort of long-lasting player engagement.

Purpose is extremely important in grind-heavy aspects of online games, and that's what we lack here. Once in a while a player finds purpose in their activities, be it the drive to hit 50 while only at 36 because their Linkshell is encouraging them to help out in content. But for the majority of players that purpose never materializes and all we're left with is an empty feeling of gaining a level.

For the white knights who manufactured their own purpose and wish to point fault at others for not doing the same, good for you but you're in the minority. A subscription-based game has to appeal to a wider audience to maintain itself, and to believe this game can be sustained by your subscriptions alone is being foolish. You're cutting off your nose to spite your face.
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FFXI - Fellows - Gilgamesh


#143 Jan 14 2012 at 12:30 AM Rating: Excellent
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KaneKitty wrote:
I was addressing the topic of difficulty and grinding, not only the subjective idea of fun, though. I meant to point out that nearly everything one can do, whether in a game or out of it, generally consists of series of repetitive tasks that, in themselves, are neither necessarily challenging nor inherently enjoyable.

Most people were claiming that "the grind" constituted a complete lack of difficulty, but I was pointing out that grinds themselves exist as primary parts of other skills that we would call difficult, and that a test of one's tolerance, persistence, determination, and patience is, really, no less valid a difficulty than a test of one's physical endurance or strength.

I don't disagree that things in games should be fun (whatever fun means), but I do think that grinding is written off by individuals who cannot or otherwise do not want to get through it as utterly valueless or empty when, in reality, a grind is a legitimate source of challenge that creates a sense of investment and fosters an eventual sense of accomplishment - it just puts slightly different skills to the test.


I can see where you're coming from but I don't think that's what most people are looking for in a game these days, at least not as the primary feature. Character progression is fine, but there absolutely has to be a want to play in the first place for anyone to put up with it. Words like "tolerance, persistence, determination, and patience" could be used to describe watching grass grow, if that was the challenge I decided to present you with, but I doubt you'd do it, and if you did I'm not so sure you'd feel any sense of accomplishment. All it would prove is that you're willing to put up with something you didn't want to do. Apply that to MMOs for a second. Let's say one game has a grind that is as exhilarating as watching grass grow, while another is a blast to play, yet both provide character progression while you're playing. I think most would prefer the second option.

I don't think that anyone in this thread is completely against the idea of character progression in an MMO. Speaking for myself, I'm certainly not. But the way it is handled makes all the difference in the world. While MMOs may need rewards to entice players, the core of any game is still gameplay above all else. If the game is dull, then the rewards aren't worth it, in the same way that watching grass grow or any other dull real life task isn't worth it.

EDIT: By the way, if I'm not quite touching on the point you're making, feel free to let me know. You say you're not discussing the idea of "fun" but that is basically what it comes down to when many of us choose to play an MMO. Maybe fun isn't even the right term in every case, desire to play may be more accurate. My thoughts on this are that character progression is a good thing, as long as there is a real desire to play the game to begin with. You ever do something in an MMO that you loved doing and received loot/exp/currency for doing it? This is good. You ever do something in an MMO that you had to watch a movie while doing it to keep your eyes from falling out of your head? This is bad bad bad.

I think also worth noting is that the time required to complete a specific task is also something that effects a game's appeal. There is a nice medium between making content so long that it targets the 12hr/day crowd, and so short that everyone completes everything in a week. I think the winning combination (which arguably is also the most difficult route for devs, understandably) is to create varied content that keeps the player playing but doesn't focus so much on one single task that it leaves the player bored.

Edited, Jan 14th 2012 3:58am by Susanoh
#144 Jan 14 2012 at 10:37 AM Rating: Good
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IDk, when I think of fun and mmo, I think of something that has a nice story, that I can progress through without hours of grinding to hit the next part of the plot, excuse me, I shouldn't say hours, I mean weeks to months. And it can be something I can do with my husband, or if we chose, group up with others while content is being scaled to accommodate how many is in a group.

Also, side quests can't be random errand tasks. Make them feel as if what you are doing is important, additions to the MS. That is me personally.

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#145 Jan 14 2012 at 9:41 PM Rating: Good
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Kane Kitty stated it very nicely ty Kanekitty.
Every MMO equates to a grind be it on the front end or the back end REGARDLESS. I prefer mine slow and group centric. I want mobs to be hard and I want to be rewarded for overcoming risk and I want a sting to failure.

A slow grind does a few important things it allows people to enjoy their crafted gear and gear loot drops. It keeps people in and around starting areas longer so the new guy joining the game doesn't start in a ghost town. Builds community (which I find most important)The longer to level means the more you group with others more people you interact with. It says to the player it will most likely take me 6 months to level so I may as well enjoy the ride. meaning players dont feel the mad rush to ONLY level, they actually just settle into the content instead of the grind..Also you can add more dungeons on different levels not just a buncha cap level dungeons.

MMOs no matter how you want to BS yourselves is all a GRIND. I have heard your crying about no one wants to play that way but guess what Short of giving you cap level and epic gear at log in YOU ARE GOING TO GRIND SOMETHING. My point which I will make again is Since WoW all games are dumbed downed easy mode. (I mean even WoW expansion content is exhausted in less then two weeks after release. Then guess what? it's boredom,or GRIND Ha.)I totally understand some people like and need this...BUT....I mean do we really need every **** game to be that way? Seriously. I'm not saying your way of playing is wrong or right but at least concede that maybe there are folks like me and Naku,Kittykane etc.. Who would like a higher difficulty more strategic (Can have a grind with strategy if you think out of the box) MMO to play as well? I'm not saying to kill your WoWlike games you are more then welcome to them.

People just throw out this BS long grind equals boring.I tell you what Grinding in a group in EQ was a blast when you were with good and fun people sharing our lives and laughs,wiping occasionally because we got to drunk or sleepy. Now a days there are just so many more possibilities to make thing more exciting so you would never know you were grinding.

I get it's not for everybody, but there are people out there like me who would buy and play that game. Unfortunately there are none. (Eve comes close)
#146 Jan 14 2012 at 11:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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Freedom4all wrote:
MMOs no matter how you want to BS yourselves is all a GRIND. I have heard your crying about no one wants to play that way but guess what Short of giving you cap level and epic gear at log in YOU ARE GOING TO GRIND SOMETHING.


Those of us who aren't in favor of major "grinds" are advocating character progression that comes along with good content and reasonable time requirements. No one is saying there should be no character progression whatsoever. I think there is a bit of confusion here and it stems from the fact that some are referring to "the grind" as any and all character progression, which is fine if we want to put it like that, but we still need a way to distinguish between unreasonable time requirements and reasonable ones to understand where we're coming from.

Pacing is a very important aspect of all games, not just MMOs. Something that may be fun for a few hours may become tedious after a few more. The trick is getting it right, which is probably tougher for MMOs than any other genre because it's a genre that's designed to keep people playing for many months. Still, intentionally slowing the game to a crawl will make for a less exciting game. In your earlier post you asked people to think of people who are bedridden or injured. People like this have all the time in the world to play. Making content that appeals to this group will likely have vastly different time requirements than content designed for the average person. For example, making a week long quest for a regular person could be all in a day's work for someone who's up for a 14 hour marathon. From a developer standpoint, the problem with making a game for this market is that it's incredibly risky. Even if a developer does make a game aimed purely at the hardcore market, they still have to bank on the assumption that this smaller market will prefer the game to the competition, which isn't a given considering that even so called "easy mode" MMOs have people who spend plenty of time on them and enjoy them quite a bit.

As one of the "old" FFXI players, I honestly do understand where you're coming from. Not sure if FFXI was your thing or not but it certainly did carry a hefty time requirement pre-Abyssea and especially pre-TaoU. I don't think it would be so bad for there to be games with similar time requirements now (EDIT: Just want to point out that I mean some games like this. With today's market, it'd be terrible for all of them to be this way). The only problem is that the market has evolved, and many are preferring the newer style. Today's kids are used to instant satisfaction, and adults who may have grew up with games like Everquest or FFXI often don't have the time to do that all over again, and not all of them would want to with all the competition out there these days (not saying everyone wouldn't, but certainly some). It's not that the hardcore gamers who want a game at their pace don't deserve a game, but that there may not be enough of a market for a developer to bank on its success.



Edited, Jan 15th 2012 12:36am by Susanoh
#147 Jan 15 2012 at 12:45 AM Rating: Good
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All MMOs have grind-based progression, even the newest SW:TOR is basically a grind, just pampered with Voice Acting and plot to give the illusion that what you're grinding has some matter to the world (it doesn't, but immersion makes you ignore that fact).

Before Abyssea, FFXI was the epitome of a slow grind and group-centric content. Before pages, soloing levels took forever past level 50. Now it's a decent pace. Once Abyssea came though, all of that slow grinding went away almost instantly. Low level content is nearly non existent, and Mid level content is far and few. However, the one thing FFXI has going it is the community. This game is extremely social because the game forces you to do so.

I dunno about everyone else, but I was 14 when I first played FFXI. Now I'm 21. I'm in college and I can't play games like FFXI anymore unless I'm on break. As such, I'm happy with my progression in TOR. I'm in a guild and whenever I want to group with anyone I can easily ask for it in the general chat and people will usually answer. Plus, I have an MMO buddy who has stuck with me from FFXI to FFXIV to TOR.

I realize FFXI was basically the last game to have forced grouping for all content. Now most MMOs are a race to 50 to where the "real game" is, and I'm pretty confident (and content with the fact) that TOR will eventually become like this. The problem with group-based grinding in today's market is exactly what the above post said: Most gamers who grew up on that simply does not have the time anymore. The truth of the matter is the ones who would prefer this style are already in other MMOs or do not have the time for it. It's as simple as that.
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#148 Jan 15 2012 at 2:39 AM Rating: Decent
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#149 Jan 15 2012 at 2:41 AM Rating: Decent
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A naked grind is an outdated concept from EQ/FFXI, Nobody wants it, and those that do are to far and few to sustain a MMO(See this MMO) and by naked grind i mean the old old grind of old, where you moved to one spot, and stayed there for hours and hours, killing the same 3 mobs and respawns.

Oh and Wow content does not run out in 2 weeks, only 0.09% of the community clears the new content in 2 weeks or a month.
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#150 Jan 15 2012 at 3:05 AM Rating: Decent
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Ostia wrote:

Oh and Wow content does not run out in 2 weeks, only 0.09% of the community clears the new content in 2 weeks or a month.


Good for them, it's almost as if WoW was released in 2004 and therefore there's still content that was built up from 2004 - 2011 that could be done even after you complete new content quickly (which people actually does complete quickly, by the way.)

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#151 Jan 15 2012 at 2:31 PM Rating: Decent
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Urste wrote:
Motion to move this thread to Complaints.


I support this motion. It started off with someone that was set off by a problem with the billing system many others don't seem to have a problem with and just decided to write down his expectations of a game he likes. And look, before you know it we end up in a conversation about old-fashioned grinding and why other MMO's are better... once more.

And yes, I agree, nowadays the MMO's that are released seem to differ from FFXI. Apparently in 2012 people want to level up all lead by the storyline. You just follow the instructions, do your quests and whadaya know, you're level 30 already! That's cool, I guess. In fact, a friend of min who does play SWTOR (and enjoys it btw) already pointed out to me this post of a guy who wanted to know if you could play SWTOR offline. Quite funny if you ask me, but it shows you once more that you cannot please everybody.

Anyway, the only the posts on the ZAM pages that seem to yield the most responses are the complaint posts and it is not because the complaints are new and insightful and therefore interesting. It's just because some people like to rant, and "show off" their knowledge of other games and even start fights about them.

It's getting old. In fact, it is already way less entertaining as some of you want others to believe FFXIV is, and it is at least 10 times more boring and repetative than the grinding some of you hate.






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