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Abolish Classes?Follow

#1 Feb 03 2012 at 12:15 AM Rating: Good
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So I know this probably won't really be a popular idea, as many people who currently play have multiple 50s already. But, I've been trying to keep up with how all this job stuff is supposed to work, and it just sounds too complicated than what it should be.

Now I know 1.21 is right around the corner, so we can just wait to see how it works when it's implemented, but for version 2.0. I believe that the abolishment of classes may be the right thing for the game.

Maybe somehow they can transfer xp gained from these classes to some sort of items or just whatever. And for DoH and DoL classes, they could just transfer over the points to an actual craft (or they could just call them "jobs" instead to save the hassle)

Not a polished idea by any means, but I was just curious to see what the community thought about this.


EDIT: For clarification, What I meant was not a "classless system" but getting rid of the classes such as GLD, THM, ect. And just opting for the jobs themselves (WAR, PLD, BRD).


Edited, Feb 3rd 2012 2:23am by Mezzura
#2 Feb 03 2012 at 12:43 AM Rating: Default
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How would the abolition of classes work practically? Because there's no way to advance in a skill without it, basically, distilling to a class system.

I know a "classless system" worked in FFII, but that was a single-player game; in an online setting, it wouldn't work to let everyone do everything without any restrictions... but if we added restrictions, we'd be creating classes, you see? :P

What I mean is that there's not much difference between gaining levels in Axe Skill, getting better with an axe, learning axe skills, and allocating your stats toward axe-based damage, and just being a marauder. In fact, the only real difference is a bit of interesting class-based lore and some nice, unifying flavour to go along with certain abilities, which we would lose.

No, playing a Final Fantasy, especially its fourteenth instalment, is more about joining a tradition and taking on roles (also, it's a role-playing game, heh), and the majority already made it extremely clear that they want traditional classes. It adds to the game, it adds to its feel as a Final Fantasy, and it adds to a sense of character definition and immersion, a sense that you're donning a kind of legendary role. You are a Paladin; you are a Bard - it's more attractive than "you are a guy with some skill at protecting others who uses a sword and shield with heavy armour and some healing" or "you are a person who shoots arrows but also uses supportive abilities that don't cost MP."

I do agree, however, that DoH and DoL should just be changed into crafts and not count as "classes" in themselves anymore. They're all so similar how it is, it basically feels like SE just copy-pasted the same single class eight and three times, respectively (which, indeed, they may have done). Unless SE actually develops those "crafters" to a significant degree (making them resemble how they were described to us pre-release would be a nice start), then DoH and DoL should basically be abolished as the classes that they are currently, as they do not really add anything to the game by being their own classes.
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#3 Feb 03 2012 at 1:21 AM Rating: Decent
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Ah I guess I didn't really clarify in my original post, I apologize. What I meant was not a "classless system" but getting rid of the classes such as GLD, THM, ect. And just opting for the jobs themselves (WAR, PLD, BRD)

Though thank you for the detailed reply!

Edited, Feb 3rd 2012 2:22am by Mezzura

Edited, Feb 3rd 2012 2:27am by Mezzura
#4 Feb 03 2012 at 4:22 AM Rating: Excellent
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Personal opinion:

The whole duality of jobs and classes is just an ugly relic
from a time when they suddenly realized that the classes
are dead boring, but jobs are not easy to implement.

It`s one of the old mistakes they just have to drag along,
giving superficial explanations (like: classes are for solo,
jobs are for party) on the way. But maybe that`s just me.
#5 Feb 03 2012 at 5:14 AM Rating: Decent
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I agree with that. I was never really a fan of the classes in the first place, and it just seems like with the classes and jobs coinciding together, either classes will be made pointless or they would have one **** of a time balancing them both. I just can't see classes being anything other than a burden, and I believe 2.0 is the opportune time to get rid of the them. Cut out the classes for 2.0 and make "starter jobs" like in FFXI (hey, maybe the jobs being released in 1.21 could even be the "starter jobs" in 2.0)


Edited, Feb 3rd 2012 6:33am by Mezzura
#6 Feb 03 2012 at 10:18 AM Rating: Decent
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Sounds like people forgot the reason why they created Jobs.

Classes are a baseless entity, while now having some general focus, but still having the ability to interchange and swap abilities, they are still fairly generic.
Currently Lnc, Pug, Mrd, Arc are DDs, they deal damage, with some distinction in weapon-use, and mob favorites, but still fairly interchangable.
Gld, Mrd, Pug are Tanks. With proper gear, and a skilled player, these jobs can out tank each other given the correct situations, and tank equally well in most situations.

Thm and Con are Nukers. This is where they cleaned up the lines however, Thm can't heal for crap, and Con can't compete with fire-bombing. Other than that, the two are equally good at nuking, and in some situations Con is better then Thm, and Thm is better than Con.

This is where Jobs come in.
As classes are baseless (because they are in-fact the base), they provide a building block for creating multiple specializations. If they (SE) removes classes, the diverse selection of job options that SE has planned (and has talked about implementing) falls flat on it's face.

Right now, with the current classes, you have some interesting options that they can implement, I will run with Thm and Con just for an exmaple:
Thm can get a Smn Job that is attuned to Fire and Thunder
Con can get a Smn Job that is attuned to Earth and Wind
Con could get say a straight buffing Job
Thm could get a straight debuffing job

While you have Mrd, which could be a Beast Master, a Knight (High magic resistance, basic magic ability e.g. Shell, reflect think Celes)

Gld they are already talking about getting Dark Knight, doing the whole either be a White Knight (paladin) or a Dark Knight).

Arc has options like Thief, Scout, or the likes

Lancer, you have Drg, and they are discussing a Job that would atually have a wyvern pet, but would decrease the lancers dmg output in-exchange.

Pug, you have Dancer, or Controller (think Sketch ability type stuffs), however, I think Controller is more geared towards bst now. And there are support type abilities (TP for MP MP for TP and the like) that they can play off of.

And there is also the talk of hibred jobs (jobs that require 1 or more classes).

Keep in mind that the classes are meant as a stepping stone, and the design of a two teir leveling system has been a fairly common staple of the Final Fantasy series. There has always been some form of graduation from one to the other, and this time, they have found a very dynamic way of doing this. But, most likely, similar to the design of 11, there are many things that they will go into with this that will be left undiscovered (e.g. there are zone lines in EVERY starting zone of 11 and Zilart that were never expanded on. There are stories from different characters and quests that are open-ended, or never closed, or reference things that are never opened... E.g. the Pirate docks in the one Zilart hamlet... I can not for the life of me remember the name).

Without seeing more of the Class/Job system, and how the job specialization works, it is very hard to judge what the outcome of it will be, but cutting classes because it over-complicates things seems, well, like over-simplification to me.

On a side note, remember, they have 3 more classes they are going to release by 2.0 (unless Yoshi was lying or just teasing about... or they will get delayed). One is Red Mage, the other is Beast Master (again, based on his teasing), both with jobs associated to them (chances are, for continuity, Red Mage will probably be the job of something like Archanist). If they keep the current guilds, we are looking at Arcanist (Red mage), Shepard (Beast master), and Musketeer (thief).
#7 Feb 05 2012 at 7:57 AM Rating: Default
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I kinda think that making it all fit into one system would be better in the long run. Rework the current class sytem into jobs or something such. the idea that classes for starters and jobs for advanced. i kinda see classes becoming obselete. you cant bring your archer cos it cant sing songs or whatever.

personally i level archer cos i want to shoot stuff and to some degree witht he new jobs and things they have planned i am a little fearfull that xiv will follow xi in some trends of play by pushing players into corners and never really let them play there jobs in the ways they'd like.

what i mean here is in xi for example noone levelled a summoner because they wanted to be a last option main healer. but for the most part thats the position they were pushed into. most people i know wanted to be a red mage so they could hack & slash away at stuff and cripple it with magics but they got pushed to a back line support role. and on a personal note i levelled ninja cos i liked the idea of being a shurikan machine of death, soon realised that wasn't happening. now a lot of this can be putdown to the games design. but still it's the kinda thing i'm hoping not to see so much of in xiv.

partly why i dont want to see classes become obselete. i want to shoot stuff with my bow and focus on being a typical ranger style player, i dont want to find myself pushed into a sing and dance bard role where the only time i actually get to shoot anything is solo play.

if they were to kind of follow xi and make reshape the starter classes into starter jobs and make them more job like then i think it would improve things alot and keep them on par with the newly designed job classes.
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#8 Feb 05 2012 at 9:26 AM Rating: Good
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It seems to me that they're going to be moving into a more Final Fantasy Tactics like direction for jobs. You need 30 LNC and 15 THM to play DRG for example. Samurai could be 30LNC 30GLD 30THM or something. I'm actually curious what they're going to do with SAM in this game since LNC/DRG performs their old role. I'm hoping for more of a FFT type SAM with their versatile Draw Sword ability.
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#9 Feb 05 2012 at 9:31 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Sounds like people forgot the reason why they created Jobs.

They created jobs because they realized that their "Let's be different just to the different" class system lacked personality and was unappealing.
#10 Feb 05 2012 at 10:26 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
personally i level archer cos i want to shoot stuff and to some degree witht he new jobs and things they have planned i am a little fearfull that xiv will follow xi in some trends of play by pushing players into corners and never really let them play there jobs in the ways they'd like.


It seems like a lot of people on this forum are misinformed. If you read the lodestone at all, they go into detail how the jobs will work. If your archer becomes bard, you dont lose ANY dps by switching, you GAIN several skills (songs) but lose the ability to equip cross class abilities. Bard will play more like corsair than bard, stop looking at the name and thinking XI bard. You will have 4 songs, and i doubt you can use all 4 at once, so while your dps'ing you can run around and hit 2 extra aoe abilities..

SE even posted all the job abilities already. Jobs are just specialized versions of the classes themselves, making them more unique. That coupled with not being able to equip cross class abilities will truly make jobs unique. I just hope there is a reason to use them on primals, at least a big enough reason to make everyone want to drop sentinel off their bars.

Edited, Feb 5th 2012 11:28am by xSanctusx
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#11 Feb 05 2012 at 5:50 PM Rating: Decent
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rfolkker wrote:
If they keep the current guilds, we are looking at Arcanist (Red mage)
Ugh, I hope they don't in that case. GLA/CON/THM hybrid, sure. Fencer added as a class and being the patron class for Red Mage, even better. I want my rapier and pimp hat, not another pure caster.
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#12 Feb 07 2012 at 10:30 AM Rating: Decent
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Ruisu wrote:
rfolkker wrote:
If they keep the current guilds, we are looking at Arcanist (Red mage)
Ugh, I hope they don't in that case. GLA/CON/THM hybrid, sure. Fencer added as a class and being the patron class for Red Mage, even better. I want my rapier and pimp hat, not another pure caster.

It was an assumption of mine that Arcanist would be red mage (since Yoshi has on a few occasions mentioned one of three classes being unlocked before 2.0), and those are already in place. But it would be weird to see Red mage with a lance type weapon... And it would be weird to see them change Arcanist to use a rapier type weapon... So, yeah, not sure how that would be a fit.
#13 Feb 07 2012 at 11:10 AM Rating: Good
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xSanctusx wrote:
SE even posted all the job abilities already.


Pardon my ignorance, but where is the official SE list of all job abilities listed? I've looked through all the lodestone posts, the stickies and posts here and Google searches - I've found nothing more than player-posted information.
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#14 Feb 07 2012 at 11:22 AM Rating: Good
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I think the abilities without the names is here http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/30986-dev1206-Class-Reforms-Action-Lists

I think there is more but I cannot find it or else I am wrong and it wasn't a post from SE.

Edited, Feb 7th 2012 12:26pm by Yelta
#15 Feb 07 2012 at 1:41 PM Rating: Excellent
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Rinsui wrote:
Personal opinion:

The whole duality of jobs and classes is just an ugly relic
from a time when they suddenly realized that the classes
are dead boring, but jobs are not easy to implement.

It`s one of the old mistakes they just have to drag along,
giving superficial explanations (like: classes are for solo,
jobs are for party) on the way. But maybe that`s just me.


This was exactly my initial reaction to the idea.

However, given the time to accept the new reality, it may actually be a more brilliant idea than I first thought.

When I look back at FFXI (before Abyssea came along and shook things up), there seemed to be a dichotomy between what people wanted in XP or merit parties and what they wanted when taking down something big.

Jobs like Black Mages and White Mages were really good at what they did, but they had a hard time gaining traction as a popular XP job because they were so slow and dependent. Or you could look at a job like Dancer which worked well in a typical XP situation, but was nearly useless against a singular "mega boss."

People want specialist jobs for big events, but they want flexibility and independence for XP or soloing or low-man groups. I believe the class/job system gives every player, no matter their profession, a chance to be useful in any situation. The class gives you flexibility to borrow heavily from other classes, and the job gives you a level of specialization that your class does not. It's not perfect, but it definitely levels the playing field, and there's less chance of people being left out because of the class and job they chose, in my opinion.

Edited, Feb 7th 2012 2:43pm by Xoie
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