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#52 Feb 15 2012 at 10:13 PM Rating: Decent
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Susanoh wrote:
That article says that 12,000 (out of 600,000) people who were willing to play this game in its current state were also willing to pay a subscription for it. If you were targeting this response at me (not sure if you were by that point in your post or just speaking in general), I'll just say that information isn't too surprising.


The article says a lot more than that. It shows that the desire of their development team is with pleasing their current player-base, and likely increasing from there.
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#53 Feb 15 2012 at 10:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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BlynkTheSneak wrote:
Susanoh wrote:
That article says that 12,000 (out of 600,000) people who were willing to play this game in its current state were also willing to pay a subscription for it. If you were targeting this response at me (not sure if you were by that point in your post or just speaking in general), I'll just say that information isn't too surprising.


The article says a lot more than that. It shows that the desire of their development team is with pleasing their current player-base, and likely increasing from there.


Well, then I wish them the best of luck, but the cy--reali--I mean, whatever in me says they're ******* away good money after bad then. Again.
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#54 Feb 15 2012 at 10:44 PM Rating: Good
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Their current player base is irrelevant, they don't meter, at all. The current player base is willing to pay for a bag of **** if it say's "FINAL FANTASY ****!" That is just a fact( And a proven one since they have actually been playing a pile of **** for 2 years and praising it like is the greatest game on earth.) Also Se development skills as far as MMO'S are concerned are outdated, by an entire decade, it's like they never even made FFXI, they had the perfect blueprint of a game that was successful for it's time, and decided to ignore it and instead just double down on graphics, thats all they did, just make a pretty game and lets charge for it, no standard features, no innovation, no nothing, just EQ in 2011.

2 years of development after release what does FFXIV has to show ? 2 boss battles, and patch after patch of contradictions, if they release 2.0 tomorrow and start patching like that, their player base would run away like it did before, with their "Implement it today, fix it 6 months down the lane" method.
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#55 Feb 15 2012 at 11:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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BlynkTheSneak wrote:
Susanoh wrote:
That article says that 12,000 (out of 600,000) people who were willing to play this game in its current state were also willing to pay a subscription for it. If you were targeting this response at me (not sure if you were by that point in your post or just speaking in general), I'll just say that information isn't too surprising.


The article says a lot more than that. It shows that the desire of their development team is with pleasing their current player-base, and likely increasing from there.


I don't understand the point you're trying to make. I covered the paragraph you posted about the 12,000 people who are still willing to play the game also willing to pay a subscription for it.

The second paragraph you posted states that SE's mindset was that players who left were a lost cause, and the devs were making a game for 12k people. The third one you posted said they reached a conclusion that players not playing now weren't interested in playing at all. You bolded this point.

In the actual blog post, right after that paragraph you posted, the next words posted in that blog are "This conclusion, however, was wrong." Why have you chosen to emphasize a point made in an article that the author goes on to say is the complete wrong course of action? You've defended SE for the most part, now you're referencing an article that talks about their business decisions in a complete negative light. The last one you posted says "Square Enix fell afoul of a decision-making fallacy that I see all too often in the games industry: they completely excluded the importance of non-paying players." Decision making fallacies are not exactly high praise. Have you switched to condemning SE now instead of defending them?

Edited, Feb 16th 2012 12:04am by Susanoh
#56 Feb 15 2012 at 11:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
In the actual blog post, right after that paragraph you posted, the next words posted in that blog are "This conclusion, however, was wrong." Why have you chosen to emphasize a point made in an article that the author goes on to say is the complete wrong course of action? You've defended SE for the most part, now you're referencing an article that talks about their business decisions in a complete negative light. The last one you posted says "Square Enix fell afoul of a decision-making fallacy that I see all too often in the games industry: they completely excluded the importance of non-paying players." Decision making fallacies are not exactly high praise. Have you switched to condemning SE now instead of defending them?


Why do I have to have either a positive or negative view of them? This isn't a black or white issue. I don't think they're infallible gods of gaming. I don't even like them.

We aren't talking about whether or not something they did was a good idea. The article is about why they did it. I'm trying to prove that the FFXIV team is actually paying attention to the current players of XIV. They are, and it seems to me (and from the conclusions of the article) that they're probably paying too much attention.

Quote:
Their current player base is irrelevant, they don't meter, at all. The current player base is willing to pay for a bag of **** if it say's "FINAL FANTASY ****!" That is just a fact( And a proven one since they have actually been playing a pile of **** for 2 years and praising it like is the greatest game on earth.) Also Se development skills as far as MMO'S are concerned are outdated, by an entire decade, it's like they never even made FFXI, they had the perfect blueprint of a game that was successful for it's time, and decided to ignore it and instead just double down on graphics, thats all they did, just make a pretty game and lets charge for it, no standard features, no innovation, no nothing, just EQ in 2011.

2 years of development after release what does FFXIV has to show ? 2 boss battles, and patch after patch of contradictions, if they release 2.0 tomorrow and start patching like that, their player base would run away like it did before, with their "Implement it today, fix it 6 months down the lane" method.


It doesn't matter what we believe. I don't think it's the best idea that they're paying attention to bots and the (extremely) hardcore players as it is, but it appears that they are.

Edited, Feb 16th 2012 12:19am by BlynkTheSneak
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#57 Feb 15 2012 at 11:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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BlynkTheSneak wrote:
Why do I have to have either a positive or negative view of them? This isn't a black or white issue. I don't think they're infallible gods of gaming. I don't even like them.

We aren't talking about whether or not something they did was a good idea. The article is about why they did it. I'm trying to prove that the FFXIV team is actually paying attention to the current players of XIV. They are, and it seems to me (and from the conclusions of the article) that they're probably paying too much attention.


I see. I thought you were trying to defend their decisions in this case. My mistake.
#58 Feb 16 2012 at 12:03 AM Rating: Excellent
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BlynkTheSneak wrote:
Quote:
An opinion piece blog post is no more factual than my belief that chocolate mint ice cream is better than butter pecan.


That's a terrible way to disregard the opinion of a brilliant man who has actual game development experience. If you just look at his facts, he presents a very strong argument.


It's one thing to present an article as a well-reasoned opinion based on fact (although he doesn't actually have many verifiable facts at all, and even admits as much), and quite another to say "I'm just going to start proving things to you guys since a lot of you just hate to hear facts. Here's an article:" when you're showing us said article.

Subjective material never counts as fact. Facts are 100% objectively true.
#59 Feb 16 2012 at 12:31 AM Rating: Default
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Xoie wrote:
BlynkTheSneak wrote:
Quote:
An opinion piece blog post is no more factual than my belief that chocolate mint ice cream is better than butter pecan.


That's a terrible way to disregard the opinion of a brilliant man who has actual game development experience. If you just look at his facts, he presents a very strong argument.


It's one thing to present an article as a well-reasoned opinion based on fact (although he doesn't actually have many verifiable facts at all, and even admits as much), and quite another to say "I'm just going to start proving things to you guys since a lot of you just hate to hear facts. Here's an article:" when you're showing us said article.

Subjective material never counts as fact. Facts are 100% objectively true.


The word 'facts' means more than you think it means.

On second read through, I don't think I ever claimed anything in that article was fact. What are you reading? That more as a, "here is someone else saying what I'm trying to tell you." There are actual, concrete facts in that article that are very much relevant to what we're talking about, you've just skimmed those and rambled on about things that don't matter at all.

I don't know who you are trying to come off superior to, but you've got a lot more to go in order to impress me.

Edited, Feb 16th 2012 1:39am by BlynkTheSneak
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#60 Feb 16 2012 at 12:43 AM Rating: Excellent
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BlynkTheSneak wrote:
The word 'facts' means more than you think it means.

On second read through, I don't think I ever claimed anything in that article was fact. What are you reading?


I don't think I ever claimed anything besides a love for chocolate mint ice cream. I believe a bowl of it is calling me right now...
#61 Feb 16 2012 at 1:32 AM Rating: Excellent
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BlynkTheSneak wrote:
The word 'facts' means more than you think it means.

On second read through, I don't think I ever claimed anything in that article was fact. What are you reading? That more as a, "here is someone else saying what I'm trying to tell you." There are actual, concrete facts in that article that are very much relevant to what we're talking about, you've just skimmed those and rambled on about things that don't matter at all.

I don't know who you are trying to come off superior to, but you've got a lot more to go in order to impress me.


First line: Ambiguous statement about the definition of a word.

Second line: Claim that by saying "I'm just going to start proving things to you guys since a lot of you just hate to hear facts" and linking to an article, you really meant "here is someone else saying what I'm trying to tell you" and that all this fact stuff he brought up is "going on about nothing."

Third line: Underhanded jab.

Do you have to come across like you're in a political debate in every post? If you would relax and try to get your point across coherently you wouldn't be getting called out on things like this. Posting that you're going to prove people wrong with facts everyone hates to see and linking to a blog post is extremely vague. I'm still not sure who it is who was supposed to hate the points that the blog post brought up.
#62 Feb 16 2012 at 4:08 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I totally agree. I don't know why people make this worse than it is. We are paying to have a voice in one of the largest MMO releases of all time. They're essentially developing this game around us and our playing habits. I love it.


Yeah, sure.
I am so happy to be allowed to carry those boulders for the pyramid of the pharao.
And I'm absolutely willing to pay for that privilege.

Because, like, the pharao is totally building this pyramid according to my wishes.
Because, like, he certainly feels personally indepted to me.

And has no interest in building a pyramid that pleases the sane majority.
#63 Feb 16 2012 at 5:59 AM Rating: Excellent
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I'm still a little confused as to why they are releasing residences like this.

We get to replay cutscenes and a resting bonus? That's it?

We have a resting bonus already. But now we have to warp back to town and enter the inn in order to get it?

Great, we're taking steps back now. super lame.
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#64 Feb 16 2012 at 7:13 AM Rating: Excellent
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Susanoh wrote:
I'm still not sure who it is who was supposed to hate the points that the blog post brought up.

Glad I'm not the only one who is wondering that.

Dude's all over the place.
#65 Feb 16 2012 at 7:34 AM Rating: Decent
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Susanoh wrote:
Yeah, sure.
I am so happy to be allowed to carry those boulders for the pyramid of the pharao.
And I'm absolutely willing to pay for that privilege.

Because, like, the pharao is totally building this pyramid according to my wishes.
Because, like, he certainly feels personally indepted to me.

And has no interest in building a pyramid that pleases the sane majority.


FFXIV is a decent game right now. I'm having a blast playing it, but apparently I should be having a terrible time? I must be a sheeple corporate tool.

Quote:
Glad I'm not the only one who is wondering that.

Dude's all over the place.


I'm basically arguing with myself here. I bring something up in response to something, and someone swings in to try to snip at something. Everyone, in the mean time, forgets what I'm even responding to. I can't prove a point when no one knows what that point is, they just know that I must be wrong because my attitude doesn't please them.

Like this guy:

Susanoh wrote:
I'm still not sure who it is who was supposed to hate the points that the blog post brought up.


Doesn't know why I brought up what I did, but for some reason he wants to have his voice going against mine.
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#66 Feb 16 2012 at 8:18 AM Rating: Good
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BlynkTheSneak wrote:
Quote:
An opinion piece blog post is no more factual than my belief that chocolate mint ice cream is better than butter pecan.


That's a terrible way to disregard the opinion of a brilliant man who has actual game development experience. If you just look at his facts, he presents a very strong argument.

Your message is too long for me to pick apart, Lillitha. I did read it, though. I will ask you this: how can you design and improve your combat system using the opinions of people who've never played with it?

Think about this. Do you scrap and rebuild, based on vague ideas from internet forums? Is that the most cost-effective way of doing it?

I would, personally, read complaints from my current users and find out what they think. I would scan over data from people using the current combat system everyday and find out what features they use and don't use.



You ask me about how they should go about testing a battle system and other such ideas? They don't need to. FFXI had the blueprint for them and they ****** I away. Matter of fact, FFXI had the blueprint for things that would have made FFXIV successful. They could have used the basics of XI then maybe work in other aspects and ideas into their coding BEFORE its major release. Instead, they wasted time and money developing their own graphics engine, that they knew would be too much for most peoples rig to handle and I think too much for the PS3, and released it anyways riddled with all sorts of other issues.

And as far as scrapping and rebuilding based in vague ideas... Umm that is what they are doing already. They are moving away toward concepts they implemented in this game and moving toward others and maybe not thinking about balancing. Hence why I wish hey would they would take it offline, put a poll out for existing players and for the public, reevaluate XI, see what made I successful, go from there, build, beta test it, rinse repeat until they have a polished product. Just my opinion though.
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#67 Feb 16 2012 at 8:26 AM Rating: Good
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Blynk in your last post you mention about you should be hating this game... No. Like it if you want. Glad you are having a blast. Thing is, majority of people on these boards and on the lodestone have been with this game since launch. There was mass exodus after mass exodus. Many of us either have completed everything SE had to offer or just got board and fed up waiting for the fun in the form of not just raids me content but other content to appear. So we left and we are a bunch of cynics. Many of us are waiting for this game to pick up and show is it can be fun like XI was to many of us, but it hasn't yet. If you want to discuss things with people who maybe more optimistic, you may wish to check out the lodestone forums there. I guarantee you there are less cynics there than here.

Many jut feel burnt by SE. So try not to mind the tone. Many were hardcore fans for years until Squaresoft became SE and games started to go downhill withe the brand.
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#68 Feb 16 2012 at 8:27 AM Rating: Decent
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LillithaFenimore wrote:
As for
Quote:
What people playing this game can give is insight into what they /can/ change based on experience, rather than simple concepts (which are a dime a dozen).
...it's called beta. You nor anyone else should have to pay for beta. SE, at least for the duration of FFXIV has a very bad habit of having a patch, releasing it, and having to make major changes. Good example is the EXP points. At release it was very, VERY sporatic. Then they decided to tweak it. People didn't like it. So they tweaked it agian. Until we evenutally got to the point of finally have balanced EXP, oh and to top it off, PLEVEL. <---That is the worst word I ever want to hear in an MMO, for personal reasons.

They obviously didn't test things before their first release/flop and they didn't seem to test exp. before releasing patch after patch to fix it. (Or at least that it was I got since they were constantly having to fix it, of course I could totally be wrong about that, but I'm just saying from a player's observation.)


I mean, no one knows why they do or do not do anything but assumptions are never healthy. Especially when people continue to treat the current dev team like they're the original one who created the flop. Ever since the development team has switched, the game's been in nothing but a steady and an increasingly steep incline. You can't hold son accountable for the sins of the father. The reason there's so many seemingly schizophrenic changes can possibly be attributed to the mass development team change, no? Now that we have a stable team, I feel way more confident in this game.

LillithaFenimore wrote:
Not just people playing it can give insight. Again, they already have your money. They don't have mine, or God only knows how many others have left. It's the ones who left they have to convince to return. So not only do they need paying customers input, but they need to figure out what will draw people back and then some. Again, this is a business, they are in it for the profit.


So, what of the entire first year this game was out? They weren't making a **** bit of profit on a single subscriber because it was all free to play. They didn't have their money then and still they accommodated and adhered to as much of the current playing population as possible. Now, I do agree that they are indeed a business concerned primarily with money, as any business is (hospitals included). And I do agree they need to figure out what will draw people who are not currently playing. However; in order to make a profit in the long run, they're going to need our help to figure out what to do. Yes, people don't have to pay for beta or anything in order to have just as much say (if not more) but the game stands where it stands. It's either this or the game dies. I'd rather support it to see its potential then just leave it for the dogs, but that's just me. I can see why other people would want to not pay for what they deem an "unfinished project."


And I'm sorry, but whoever brought up the Pharaoh analogy is ill informed. Pharaohs were treated as Gods on Earth because they believed they were just that: the human incarnation of a much greater celestial being, Horus. I don't know about you, but if I truly believed that the son of Re was embedded within the flesh of the pharaoh, I'd be happily working my fingers to the bone to impress him as a sign of my respect, loyalty and admiration. I'm not saying everyone was happy about it - everyone can never be collectively happy about anything. You could give away free brownies and someone would complain there's nuts in them. But either way, just a poor analogy.
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#69 Feb 16 2012 at 9:25 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:
Hence why I wish hey would they would take it offline, put a poll out for existing players and for the public, reevaluate XI, see what made I successful, go from there, build, beta test it, rinse repeat until they have a polished product. Just my opinion though.


If you wish for hope re-affirmation that they're making XIV like XI, than look no further than the latest food update. Pretty much copies the food system in XI.

Quote:
Now, I do agree that they are indeed a business concerned primarily with money, as any business is (hospitals included). And I do agree they need to figure out what will draw people who are not currently playing. However; in order to make a profit in the long run, they're going to need our help to figure out what to do. Yes, people don't have to pay for beta or anything in order to have just as much say (if not more) but the game stands where it stands. It's either this or the game dies.


Nobody should need to point out that they're a business aimed for money. That has nothing to do with anything, but for some people it seems to refute everything they don't want to hear. Yoshi very clearly views FFXIV as a customer service, and is aimed almost entirely on pleasing them and growing from there.

They have a concern with making the game as best as possible, as safely as possible. They can't gamble over ideas that might not work. The only way they can do this is by listening to their players and adopting the positive feedback. There is also clear evidence that they are listening to their players, both in their quickness to fix complaints on the lodestone & their prioritizing of these players.

I don't understand why people try to convince themselves that they aren't.
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#70 Feb 16 2012 at 9:38 AM Rating: Decent
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BlynkTheSneak wrote:
Quote:
Hence why I wish hey would they would take it offline, put a poll out for existing players and for the public, reevaluate XI, see what made I successful, go from there, build, beta test it, rinse repeat until they have a polished product. Just my opinion though.


If you wish for hope re-affirmation that they're making XIV like XI, than look no further than the latest food update. Pretty much copies the food system in XI.

Quote:
Now, I do agree that they are indeed a business concerned primarily with money, as any business is (hospitals included). And I do agree they need to figure out what will draw people who are not currently playing. However; in order to make a profit in the long run, they're going to need our help to figure out what to do. Yes, people don't have to pay for beta or anything in order to have just as much say (if not more) but the game stands where it stands. It's either this or the game dies.


Nobody should need to point out that they're a business aimed for money. That has nothing to do with anything, but for some people it seems to refute everything they don't want to hear. Yoshi very clearly views FFXIV as a customer service, and is aimed almost entirely on pleasing them and growing from there.

They have a concern with making the game as best as possible, as safely as possible. They can't gamble over ideas that might not work. The only way they can do this is by listening to their players and adopting the positive feedback. There is also clear evidence that they are listening to their players, both in their quickness to fix complaints on the lodestone & their prioritizing of these players.

I don't understand why people try to convince themselves that they aren't.


I don't know why you're fighting me, man - I'm on your side for this. At least, I thought I was. >.>

Nobody should need to point out they're a money-focused business just as no one should need to point out they want to make the best game possible. But I pretty much said exactly what most of your second paragraph stated. There's tons of posts from Yoshida on the forums that are clear examples of changing his actions and thoughts because of the displeasure of the majority of the forum community, such as the server merges just recently.

I have no doubts in Yoshi's passion for this game and care for its players but money is an evil beast that needs to be taken into account, regardless of passion and altruism. "There's one thing shareholders hate more than bad press and that's a bad quarterly statement." Without money, Yoshi's concern with the players will be moot because there will be no players. Because there will be no game. Because there will be no money to develop it. I despise money and am very much an idealist in most every regard, but I do realize it needs to be involved in the equation. Though again, I do very much think Yoshi is trying his best to take care of us.
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#71 Feb 16 2012 at 11:15 AM Rating: Excellent
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MystikMadness wrote:
I don't know why you're fighting me, man - I'm on your side for this. At least, I thought I was. >.>

I don't know that he is fighting with you as much as he's worked himself into a bit of a frenzy and is lashing out in every direction.

Consider it friendly fire I guess.
#72 Feb 16 2012 at 11:24 AM Rating: Good
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MrTalos wrote:
MystikMadness wrote:
I don't know why you're fighting me, man - I'm on your side for this. At least, I thought I was. >.>

I don't know that he is fighting with you as much as he's worked himself into a bit of a frenzy and is lashing out in every direction.

Consider it friendly fire I guess.


Touche.
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#73 Feb 16 2012 at 12:01 PM Rating: Default
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MystikMadness wrote:
I don't know why you're fighting me, man - I'm on your side for this. At least, I thought I was. >.>

Nobody should need to point out they're a money-focused business just as no one should need to point out they want to make the best game possible. But I pretty much said exactly what most of your second paragraph stated. There's tons of posts from Yoshida on the forums that are clear examples of changing his actions and thoughts because of the displeasure of the majority of the forum community, such as the server merges just recently.

I have no doubts in Yoshi's passion for this game and care for its players but money is an evil beast that needs to be taken into account, regardless of passion and altruism. "There's one thing shareholders hate more than bad press and that's a bad quarterly statement." Without money, Yoshi's concern with the players will be moot because there will be no players. Because there will be no game. Because there will be no money to develop it. I despise money and am very much an idealist in most every regard, but I do realize it needs to be involved in the equation. Though again, I do very much think Yoshi is trying his best to take care of us.


I totally agree with you. That criticism was against people who even brought that topic up to begin with, not you.
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#74 Feb 16 2012 at 12:06 PM Rating: Good
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BlynkTheSneak wrote:
MystikMadness wrote:
I don't know why you're fighting me, man - I'm on your side for this. At least, I thought I was. >.>

Nobody should need to point out they're a money-focused business just as no one should need to point out they want to make the best game possible. But I pretty much said exactly what most of your second paragraph stated. There's tons of posts from Yoshida on the forums that are clear examples of changing his actions and thoughts because of the displeasure of the majority of the forum community, such as the server merges just recently.

I have no doubts in Yoshi's passion for this game and care for its players but money is an evil beast that needs to be taken into account, regardless of passion and altruism. "There's one thing shareholders hate more than bad press and that's a bad quarterly statement." Without money, Yoshi's concern with the players will be moot because there will be no players. Because there will be no game. Because there will be no money to develop it. I despise money and am very much an idealist in most every regard, but I do realize it needs to be involved in the equation. Though again, I do very much think Yoshi is trying his best to take care of us.


I totally agree with you. That criticism was against people who even brought that topic up to begin with, not you.


Fair enough, I apologize for assuming, then - I was just a bit confused having read that after the quote from me.
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#75 Feb 16 2012 at 12:42 PM Rating: Decent
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Blynk: you chimed in :P. don't get too flustered up buddy. It's just a friendly debate :)
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#76 Feb 16 2012 at 1:08 PM Rating: Default
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No, you're the one getting flustered! It's very clear.
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#77 Feb 16 2012 at 1:10 PM Rating: Decent
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Really? I am? Hrm. You better tell me I am, cause it hasn't hit me yet that I was :). I just like debates :)
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#78 Feb 16 2012 at 1:21 PM Rating: Decent
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Me too. I came here looking for discussion and debate but it's filled more with people trying to shut down conversation than anything.
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#79 Feb 16 2012 at 1:44 PM Rating: Good
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Ummm debates are about shutting down the other party :) Winner take all! Huzzah!
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#80 Feb 16 2012 at 2:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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BlynkTheSneak wrote:
I'm basically arguing with myself here. I bring something up in response to something, and someone swings in to try to snip at something. Everyone, in the mean time, forgets what I'm even responding to. I can't prove a point when no one knows what that point is, they just know that I must be wrong because my attitude doesn't please them.

Like this guy:

Susanoh wrote:
I'm still not sure who it is who was supposed to hate the points that the blog post brought up.


Doesn't know why I brought up what I did, but for some reason he wants to have his voice going against mine.


You quoted two posters in post #45, then at the end you posted "I'm just going to start proving things to you guys since a lot of you just hate to hear facts. Here's an article" and proceeded to link a blog post. I did not know if you were referring to me or the other poster you quoted, but since you highlighted paid subscriptions as one of the important lines in the article and that was the point of my post, I gave you this response.

Quote:
That article says that 12,000 (out of 600,000) people who were willing to play this game in its current state were also willing to pay a subscription for it. If you were targeting this response at me (not sure if you were by that point in your post or just speaking in general), I'll just say that information isn't too surprising.


You then said that that wasn't all the article said, and proceeded to mention something about SE making their game for the players playing right now and expanding it from there. Since you'd been defending SE's decision to release beta-like features and have people pay for it up to that point, I'd assumed you were defending them in this case, but I even started my next response with "I don't understand the point you're trying to make," because I honestly didn't. I basically stopped trying to make sense of your argument after that post, because it appeared what you were arguing had nothing to do with what I was saying.

Even now, you still never said which people here "hate facts" and what even gave you that impression to begin with. I said I wasn't sure if you were targeting your post at me and you never specified. I said I didn't understand your point and you replied to me talking about things that I never brought up. I said I still did not know who you were aiming your post at and you still have not clarified. Instead, you say I want a voice against yours and leave your point unexplained.

I'm not asking you to bring up whatever argument you had (if it's with me, anyway) because it really isn't that important and I probably wouldn't care to argue at this point. I just want you to see why you appear to be "all over the place" as MrTalos mentioned. You make one ambiguous statement about people who hate facts at the end of a post where you quote two people and highlight a bunch of different points, and never actually clarify who it is you were aiming which point at or what your actual point was to begin with. You say stuff like "Everyone, in the mean time, forgets what I was responding to." I never knew what you were responding to to begin with. I told you that in the first response where I tried to make sense of it.

Edited, Feb 16th 2012 4:02pm by Susanoh
#81 Feb 16 2012 at 3:43 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
You then said that that wasn't all the article said, and proceeded to mention something about SE making their game for the players playing right now and expanding it from there. Since you'd been defending SE's decision to release beta-like features and have people pay for it up to that point, I'd assumed you were defending them in this case, but I even started my next response with "I don't understand the point you're trying to make," because I honestly didn't. I basically stopped trying to make sense of your argument after that post, because it appeared what you were arguing had nothing to do with what I was saying.


You don't even have to go as far as the exact same post where that article was linked to see what I was talking about. I'm not defending their decision to charge people for a beta, I'm telling you that the reason that I am personally paying for that beta is because I believe it is vital for the game to get better.

sneakybl0nky wrote:
I think you've gotten a little bit carried a way with what I meant. There are two different types of data they can collect: ideas from forums, and player habits. Ideas are a dime a dozen, but they absolutely are (and have been) collecting player habits. That's the most valuable type of information you can get.

As for ideas, there is no line separating paying customers for non-paying customers. There is no vastly different list of wants. You would probably enjoy the same things in an MMO if you were paying for it as you would if you weren't paying for it. What people playing this game can give is insight into what they /can/ change based on experience, rather than simple concepts (which are a dime a dozen).

There is a evidence on the forums that they are listening to their current users, so I'm plenty happy with that.
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#82 Feb 17 2012 at 2:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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Wow, this thread has gone to Truthiness...

As for the residence getting introduced: Housing is a partial release, more features to come based on what Yoshi previously said.
#83 Feb 23 2012 at 3:41 PM Rating: Decent
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This community is terrible. Any post about new content or features inevitably devolves into bickering about the state of the game and if its a beta still or not. These petty little arguments seem like a vast majority of posts on this forum. You have people who actually want to enjoy the game and look forward to new additions posting here, then you have people who don't play the game at all or people that talk like they hate the game they play show up and **** all over every thread on this board. The worst part is no one knows how to state an opinion without stating it as fact and defending it like it was their religion. Nothing but endless bickering.

I clicked this thread because I hadn't been to the forums in a while and wanted to read some discussion about the new inns they're adding to 1.21 and all I see is post after post of this garbage. Buyer's remorse from people who can't shut up about it. I wonder how many posters in this very thread are actually 12 years old and how many are adults that don't know how to act like one. I would imagine the children would know what's up and leave a game they hated so much.

For the record I'm looking forward to the updates coming in and the road to 2.0. You're free to disagree with that and even hate me for it, but that's just not gonna affect me whatsoever so save yourself the effort of ******** over your keyboard over it.
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#84 Feb 23 2012 at 4:34 PM Rating: Decent
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Many of us are looking for the updates as well. Matter of fact, not every person has an argument going on. And some are active members in XIV who still post.

And yes many in this community are cynics. No one debates that. However, if you aren't fond of the debates and cynics, these boards maybe agiating to read. Plead continue to post anything here, but don't forget about the lodestone. If you want more optimism, I suggest becoming an active poster there as well.

I don't think the posters have much issue with people who like the game and play. Theos, Perrin, and a few others play and are optimistic. What seems to get posters fired up is when someone posts an opinion, statement or w/e and when it is challenged by another, the original op either fired back with jabs or false statements. I think that maybe where a lot of the fuss comes from. I could be oh so wrong though.
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#85 Feb 23 2012 at 4:43 PM Rating: Excellent
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reptiletim wrote:
I clicked this thread because I hadn't been to the forums in a while and wanted to read some discussion about the new inns they're adding to 1.21 and all I see is post after post of this garbage.


This happens mostly because SE's updates tend to be so relatively barebones that there's not really much discussion able to be sustained by dealing with the game itself.

You would like some discussion about these new player houses? Okay... well, you can't do anything in them except re-watch cutscenes, and they give you a "rested bonus" that replaces the other form of "rested bonus" that we already had (that is, guardian's favour). We have now exhausted this part of the update. XD

I don't mean to sound (too) argumentative, really. I just think that you do need to understand that, until this game is vast and complicated enough to warrant discussion of its own mechanics, such discussion will not take place.
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#86 Feb 23 2012 at 6:41 PM Rating: Decent
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reptiletim wrote:
I clicked this thread because I hadn't been to the forums in a while and wanted to read some discussion about the new inns they're adding to 1.21 and all I see is post after post of this garbage. Buyer's remorse from people who can't shut up about it. I wonder how many posters in this very thread are actually 12 years old and how many are adults that don't know how to act like one. I would imagine the children would know what's up and leave a game they hated so much.
Wanting to see things be set right after being double jipped by SE in some cases (once for the game, twice for those who bought new rigs to play XIV) is not exactly buyer's remorse.

That being said, I'm on the fence because I see XIV as a chance for SE to design a next gen MMO using the Final Fantasy IP without all the crap that I hated from FFXI. They've yet to hit the mark, but we still have ways to go to 2013.

I agree that some of the complaints are illogical taking into account where the game is in development (not to mention they're keeping a game running that will be obsolete once 2.0 hits while developing 2.0), but people do have a right to be annoyed at SE.

Edited, Feb 23rd 2012 7:50pm by Ruisu
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#87ChaChaJaJa, Posted: Feb 23 2012 at 8:02 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I've seen this sentiment expressed before yet I fail to understand what the gripe is behind it... Yes you bought a nice fancy computer to run XIV... but after you decided to stop playing the game it's not like SE broke into your home and stole said computer. It's not like you can't play other games on it. YOU STILL HAVE THE COMPUTER. How exactly are you jipped? If you feel like you're out some cash, just sell the @#%^ing rig... I understand the sentiment about being out the cost of the game but you can't logically ***** about spending money on something that you still use on a daily basis...
#88 Feb 23 2012 at 8:18 PM Rating: Good
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ChaChaJaJa wrote:
Ruisu wrote:
Wanting to see things be set right after being double jipped by SE in some cases (once for the game, twice for those who bought new rigs to play XIV) is not exactly buyer's remorse.


I've seen this sentiment expressed before yet I fail to understand what the gripe is behind it... Yes you bought a nice fancy computer to run XIV... but after you decided to stop playing the game it's not like SE broke into your home and stole said computer. It's not like you can't play other games on it. YOU STILL HAVE THE COMPUTER. How exactly are you jipped? If you feel like you're out some cash, just sell the @#%^ing rig... I understand the sentiment about being out the cost of the game but you can't logically ***** about spending money on something that you still use on a daily basis...


Edited, Feb 23rd 2012 9:02pm by ChaChaJaJa


One of my friends who expresses Rui's sentiments scrimped and saved to update his and his fiance's rig. *They are both in college* They were looking forward to FFXIV being a flagship title they would play for quite a while like they did with FFXI.

Now a college kid's budget, is not great, so I can only imagine what things they gave up to store away cash to update/build new rigs. And for people like them, this game was a let down...big let down. So needless sacrifice could have been avoided if SE would have delivered on a product.

They didn't do much, just game and hang out with friends. Gaming was a form of cheap entertainment for them. They also played MTG, but ****, any of us know that in order to play competitvely with friends and to compete in tournaments, that cost money.

My friends don't have that kind of money, so their entertainment is gaming...and their old rigs running FFXI was just fine...

I mean also, many people who play games now (talking about the aging demographic) we have responsibilities such as kids, homes, rent, cars, food...etc...mostly kids...Kids cost money...a **** load of it. Maybe a parent didn't want to spend extra money on a new rig? But hey, the parent probabaly thought, well this is supposed to be SE's new flag ship title...the game will carry me for a while...might as well. So the family buys a new rig or upgrades w/e needs upgrading to play this game...only to be let down...

Now I'm not saying that is everyone's exp. I'm just trying to give you a different perspective on the situation...why people feel jipped and let down. It's just maybe an extra expense they didn't want and or need at the moment.
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#89 Feb 23 2012 at 8:38 PM Rating: Decent
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Lillitha, I understand what you are saying, I just don't agree with it because a computer is a durable good. If they quit after a month and were really that put out about the money, they could have resold the rig and recouped 90% of their money. They most likely kept the rig and played another game on it instead (not to mention used it for all the other things people use computers for). You don't need to re-explain the sentiment to me, nor do you need to explain what it's like to be on a college kid's budget because I've done it.

I just can't understand how a person is jipped when, in the end, they still have the computer they paid for. It's the same exact computer that they were happy to purchase when they believed XIV would be awesome. It didn't suddenly lose processing speed or downgrade its video card because the game they wanted to play on it was a bust at release... it's the same computer and they still possess it. Jipped means ripped off. You can make that argument for the game. But you can't for the computer that you still possess.
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#90 Feb 23 2012 at 8:59 PM Rating: Decent
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I think it's they more feel jipped or ripped off by SE, not so much getting the rig. In order, at the time, to run FFXIV, rigs needed to hit a minimum bench. Don't get me wrong, the graphics are FABULOUS! <3 them.

I think its more of that they put so much faith in SE only to be let down. That is all. Yeah they still have their rig, and honestly I'm sure they moved on to what they feel is a better game for their lifestyle.

I think they and many see it as "S.E. we have this awesome game for you! You need to have such and such to play it though!" *hordes of S.E. fans do what is needed to play said awesome game and then /fail* "Boo S.E.!" And there ya go. I think S.E. could have still made great graphics without putting their fans through such grief with updatings rigs and such.
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#91 Feb 24 2012 at 1:34 AM Rating: Excellent
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reptiletim wrote:
This community is terrible. Any post about new content or features inevitably devolves into bickering about the state of the game and if its a beta still or not. These petty little arguments seem like a vast majority of posts on this forum. You have people who actually want to enjoy the game and look forward to new additions posting here, then you have people who don't play the game at all or people that talk like they hate the game they play show up and sh*t all over every thread on this board. The worst part is no one knows how to state an opinion without stating it as fact and defending it like it was their religion. Nothing but endless bickering.

I clicked this thread because I hadn't been to the forums in a while and wanted to read some discussion about the new inns they're adding to 1.21 and all I see is post after post of this garbage. Buyer's remorse from people who can't shut up about it. I wonder how many posters in this very thread are actually 12 years old and how many are adults that don't know how to act like one. I would imagine the children would know what's up and leave a game they hated so much.

For the record I'm looking forward to the updates coming in and the road to 2.0. You're free to disagree with that and even hate me for it, but that's just not gonna affect me whatsoever so save yourself the effort of sh*tting over your keyboard over it.


I don't hate anyone who happens to enjoy the game, and I'm not sure if others who are critical of it do either. Disliking the state of the game or its changes is not inherently better or worse than liking them, and on most forums you're bound to have a clash of opinions here and there. Even on the FFXI zam forums over the years, where the vast majority of users posting were active players, constant debates would spring up all the time. And it's not just zam, this site was generally considered to have a very friendly user base compared to the likes of, say, BG. Not that it was a bad board (probably the best for actual info) but many of its users would waste no time chewing you out for the sake of it. Smiley: lol

In short, it's the internet, and people will let their opinions fly whether they be positive or negative. With that said, most of the criticism is in fact directed toward the game. People may disagree with what you say or even quote and attempt to debate you on it, but try not to take it personally as a FFXIV player, because I would imagine the vast majority of the time it is not. Smiley: nod

Edited, Feb 24th 2012 2:43am by Susanoh
#92 Mar 17 2012 at 9:07 AM Rating: Excellent
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I just wanted to pop in and apologize for my rant earlier. It was a bad day and man I just couldn't see why people would get so bent out of shape over an update.

I will say that I notice the same group of usernames post here in ZAM and just about every post they make is a complaint/sarcastic comment about the game and/or its development (and wow there's a ton of armchair devs on this forum). It made me wonder why they bother posting here to begin with if they hate the game so much. I didn't like SW:TOR but I'm not on their forums talking about how I hate the game... so I guess I just don't see the point in wasting my time hating on a game I don't like when I can just go after something I do. You're right man, it is the internet, and trolling has become some people's primary pastime. So again my apologize for adding to the vitriol here.
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#93 Mar 17 2012 at 9:48 AM Rating: Good
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LillithaFenimore wrote:
Theos, Perrin, and a few others play and are optimistic.

/cry, no-one ever remembers me.

That being said, part of being optimistic is letting the caustic attitudes of others not effect you. Yes there are some people here who do little else than post about how much they hate the game, but posting a rant about it isn't going to fix it, and worse, it just sucks in into the fight. Actually, for myself, people who do nothing except spew bile about the game don't bother me, it's watching people change their minds that depresses me. I apologize for singling you out, and I don't mean it as a judgement of your character just as an observation, but KittyKane, for instance, used to be nearly as upbeat and excited as myself about every patch. Every time I see one of his posts more recently I just get a little more depressed at how much he apparently hates the game now.
#94 Mar 17 2012 at 10:48 AM Rating: Decent
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Hulan wrote:
I apologize for singling you out, and I don't mean it as a judgement of your character just as an observation, but KittyKane, for instance, used to be nearly as upbeat and excited as myself about every patch. Every time I see one of his posts more recently I just get a little more depressed at how much he apparently hates the game now.


Oh - oh god, it's true... what have I become!? (/ 'T д T`)

You know what, Hulan? Just for you, I'll try to be more upbeat. I'll take a little break, come back with a fresh perspective, and hope that this game doesn't turn into an impotent, WoW-influenced, casual romp of a product while my back is turned. I mean it: I'm really going to try; we can make this work. I'll see you next patch. Smiley: nod
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