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[dev1033] Job System Follow

#1 Mar 05 2012 at 1:02 AM Rating: Excellent
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http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/293

[dev1033] Job System

* The following changes are scheduled for the 1.21 patch release.
* Features are under development and subject to change or postponement to a later patch.

Patch 1.21 will include a new job system.
Purpose of the job system

In FINAL FANTASY XIV, the core of the growth system is the Armoury system. It is a broad ranging "horizontal" system in which players develop other classes and thereby strengthen and grow their main class.
In contrast, the new job system is a character growth system that will narrow the focus on growing and strengthening the main character class. The system starts at level 30, and features a sequence of special quests available at certain levels that unlock systems, abilities, and job-specific equipment. The series of job quests will not involve extremely difficult tasks such as fighting primals. Rather, they will be new game elements intended to boost character growth and motivate players.

Acquiring a job

Patch 1.21 will include seven jobs with their own dedicated quests.

To take on the special quests, player characters must have reached level 30 in their main class (and level 15 for one other specified class). Class and level requirements for each series of job quests are shown in the table below:

Job Name Conditions
Paladin Gladiator level 30 and conjurer level 15.
Monk Pugilist level 30 and lancer level 15.
Warrior Marauder level 30 and gladiator level 15.
Dragoon Lancer level 30 and pugilist level 15.
Bard Archer level 30 and conjurer level 15.
White Mage Conjurer level 30 and gladiator level 15.
Black Mage Thaumaturge level 30 and pugilist level 15.
* These conditions are in place to ensure that players seeking to master these new jobs have fully experienced the Armoury system—the core of character growth in FINAL FANTASY XIV.

How to switch between class and job

When you complete a certain quest, you will receive a "soul crystal." Select Gear from the main menu to equip the soul crystal to the specific job slot. Once you have equipped the soul crystal, you will switch to that job.


* Soul crystals are classified as key items. They can be equipped on the Gear menu, but they do not count against your inventory limits.
* You can also change jobs with text commands.

Learning job-specific actions

With Patch 1.21, five job-specific actions will be added for each job, which are unlocked as the character completes the aforementioned quests. The first job-specific action is learned when the character acquires the corresponding soul crystal. Job-specific actions can only be used with the associated job.
* Job-specific actions that have already been learned are automatically equipped when the player switches to that job.

What happens after a job change?
Job-specific actions

Players will be able to use job-specific actions.

Using other class-specific actions (by class)

When switched to a job, characters can still use the actions they learned for the base class. For example, when playing a paladin, gladiator actions will be automatically equipped and available for use.
   
For other class-specific actions, only actions from certain classes can be equipped by certain jobs, as per the table below:

Available Class-specific Actions
Job Class
Paladin Marauder/Conjurer
Monk Lancer/Archer
Warrior Gladiator/Pugilist
Dragoon Pugilist/Archer
Bard Conjurer/Thaumaturge
White Mage Gladiator/Pugilist
Black Mage Pugilist/Archer
Using other class-specific actions (number)

When characters switch to a job, they can only equip half (rounded down) of the other class-specific actions. For example, a level 35 gladiator can normally equip seven class-specific actions from other classes, but a level 35 paladin can only equip three.

Level Number of Class-specific Actions
Class Job
30 to 34 6 → 3
35 to 39 7 → 3
40 to 44 8 → 4
45 to 49 9 → 4
50 10 → 5
Changes to base parameters

When the player changes jobs, base parameters change automatically.
* Attribute points that have been allotted for the main class are carried over to the job without change.

Different rules for equipped gear

When switched to a job, characters can equip job-specific gear. Existing gear that can be equipped by the base class can also be equipped when switched to the associated job.
* Class-specific gear, which is also scheduled to be introduced in the future, cannot be equipped by job-switched characters.

Changes to the automatic save slot for actions

With the implementation of the new job system, the automatic save slots for actions, which were introduced for each class in patch 1.20, will be expanded with seven job-specific slots.
Things that will not change when switching jobs

Levels and experience points will not change from the base class.

For example, if a gladiator (level 40, 1000 EXP) switches to the paladin job, level and experience points will not change. Experience points acquired as a paladin will be kept when the character switches back to the gladiator class.

#2 Mar 05 2012 at 5:50 AM Rating: Excellent
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I like the sub job system of ffxi better, this stuff is just too wonky to me =(


Yes....wonky...
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#3 Mar 05 2012 at 7:07 AM Rating: Excellent
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samosamo wrote:
The series of job quests will not involve extremely difficult tasks such as fighting primals. Rather, they will be new game elements intended to boost character growth and motivate players.


^^
I hope they pull it off. From what I've been reading Yoshi has been very picky about the content of these quests.

It is a shame there won't be any fun NM battles or coffer hunting for the gear. :P
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#4 Mar 05 2012 at 7:57 AM Rating: Default
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ooooh my pld will be so different, no more pug/lnc skills, or thm lol. There goes 4 abilities off my bar this Friday :)

Lillitha~! Get your hubby reading this quick! :D
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Like Final Fantasy XI, the game specs will be extremely high for the time, but in about 5 years, an average machine can run it on max settings with little to no issues. Tanaka also expressed interest in making a benchmark program available.

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#5 Mar 05 2012 at 12:11 PM Rating: Good
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There's something about this that I find unnecessarily complicated. I'm hoping to see how it plays out, but there seems to be a need for a more streamlined approach to it.

It's hard to remember what cross-class abilities you can have and what you can't. I'm partially thinking they should just automatically equip all of the cross-class abilities that you can use if you meet that class level.
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#6 Mar 05 2012 at 12:15 PM Rating: Default
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Eli, I plan on it! ^_^
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#7 Mar 05 2012 at 12:17 PM Rating: Decent
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UltKnightGrover wrote:
There's something about this that I find unnecessarily complicated. I'm hoping to see how it plays out, but there seems to be a need for a more streamlined approach to it.

It's hard to remember what cross-class abilities you can have and what you can't. I'm partially thinking they should just automatically equip all of the cross-class abilities that you can use if you meet that class level.


I'm thinking it will be quite obvious when it's laid out in front of us.
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#8 Mar 05 2012 at 12:18 PM Rating: Good
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I was hoping for BST. I won't seriously consider playing FFXIV again until BST is added. That job was so much fun in FFXI.

Edited, Mar 5th 2012 1:26pm by TauuOfSiren
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#9 Mar 05 2012 at 12:19 PM Rating: Decent
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Now, please forgive my ignorance level, but how does reducing skills help the class streamline again? We get specialized skills, wear job specific gear, and do our stats get boosted or no?

Again sorry, I seriously just can't remeber. Pregnancy memory :(. Can't wait until I'm done! I want my memories back pleez!

Thanks in advance.
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#10 Mar 05 2012 at 12:31 PM Rating: Decent
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LillithaFenimore wrote:
Now, please forgive my ignorance level, but how does reducing skills help the class streamline again? We get specialized skills, wear job specific gear, and do our stats get boosted or no?

Again sorry, I seriously just can't remeber. Pregnancy memory :(. Can't wait until I'm done! I want my memories back pleez!

Thanks in advance.


Job Info:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/30986-dev1206-Class-Reforms-Action-Lists?p=449764#post449764

Quote:
Gladiator & Paladin Action List

A master of sword and shield, the gladiator is a melee specialist who excels in defense. Though his individual blows do not deal great damage, he is able to deliver them in quick succession, a quality that has earned him a reputation for dependability. The paladin job sacrifices maximum HP, but this is compensated by way of greatly enhanced defense as well as the ability to cast healing magic. Valiant by nature, a paladin can shield his comrades from blows, making him the unyielding rock upon which a party’s defense is built.


Quote:
Marauder & Warrior Action List

Marauders are fearsome frontline combatants whose ******* of actions enables them to strengthen their offensive and defensive prowess, whichever the situation demands. Charging into battle with a massive axe, the marauder quickly draws the attention of enemies, and turns their attacks against them. Warriors have the honor of possessing the highest HP of any class or job. Thriving on the enmity of his foes, there is no fiercer fighter on the field of battle.


Quote:
Pugilist & Monk Action List

A master of hand-to-hand combat, pugilists harbor the power of the elements within their fists. Making use of MP to imbue his already punishing strikes with the power of fire and earth, the pugilist is a reliable damage-dealer against most any kind of foe. The monk job further acquires the power of wind, and in marrying offense and defense in attacks, improves upon the pugilist’s capacity to deal explosive damage.


Quote:
Lancer & Dragoon Action List

The lancer is a class that specializes in wielding a variety of long-hafted spears and polearms. They possess a wide range of weaponskill combinations, but have low HP in comparison to other melee classes, and no abilities enabling them to bolster their defense. The amount of damage generated by a string of critical hits is enough to send any enemies left standing fleeing in terror. The dragoon job possesses even greater offensive abilities. In addition to enhanced attack power, dragoons are also able to take to the skies for short periods of time and rain down attacks on their enemies from above.


Quote:
Archer & Bard Action List

Archers are gifted at concealing themselves to avoid detection and deftly attacking their enemies at range. They are capable of generating large amounts of damage in brief spans of time, but are less effective the longer a battle drags on. The bard is a versatile job that performs songs to bolster various attributes of his companions. Coupled with his ability in battle, this enables the bard to carry his own weight in either an offensive or defensive capacity.


Quote:
Conjurer & White Mage Action List

Conjurers are a casting class known for their specialization in healing and defense-enhancing magic. They also possess some skill with elemental magic, granting them a degree of offensive ability, and can put single targets to sleep, providing a valuable source of control. White mages are powerful casters whose talents enable them to fully restore the HP of all party members in a mere instant. Beyond healing, they can also apply their MP towards attack magic, granting them extremely powerful offensive abilities.


Quote:
Thaumaturge & Black Mage Action List

Thaumaturges are casters who command spells of multiple elements to wreak havoc on their enemies. Their unparalleled devotion to the realm of magic endows them with the largest MP and smallest HP pools among all the classes. Though known for their inherently weak defenses, thaumaturges are feared for the destructive forces they wield. Specializing as a black mage serves to further strengthen class characteristics and also increases MP. Black mages are able to invoke devastating spells of ancient magic and subdue multiple enemies with a single cast.


That should explain a bit more how it will be streamlined i think ^^; Correct me if I'm wrong. Really jobs are for party play, larger parties where as classes are smaller parties and solo.

I will almost never use GLD again when I unlock PLD. Unless I'm soloing, and even then I might not since I won't need those other skills.

Right now every job is really a blue mage as we have very little limit on what we can use.

Going forward with jobs we will see a class system unlike FFXI as we now have 2 subjobs that we can take abilities from. But we get to be more skillfull in what we choose I think since @ 50 we can only choose 5 abilities from our base classes for each job. Which still leves 5 slots open I think down the road for expansion of levels and abilities.

I'm really happy with this update! Just as I have been with all past updates.
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Quote:
Like Final Fantasy XI, the game specs will be extremely high for the time, but in about 5 years, an average machine can run it on max settings with little to no issues. Tanaka also expressed interest in making a benchmark program available.

FilthMcNasty wrote:
I endorse this thread.
#11 Mar 05 2012 at 1:09 PM Rating: Decent
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LillithaFenimore wrote:
Now, please forgive my ignorance level, but how does reducing skills help the class streamline again? We get specialized skills, wear job specific gear, and do our stats get boosted or no?

Again sorry, I seriously just can't remeber. Pregnancy memory :(. Can't wait until I'm done! I want my memories back pleez!

Thanks in advance.


Hehe, as 3X Mom you just trade pregnancy memory for sleep deprivation. Take heart though, it gets better. :D

On topic, I think its not so much a streamline as a focusing towards a specific party role.
#12 Mar 05 2012 at 2:01 PM Rating: Decent
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Here's some info I found from digging around the dat files and other sites:

Quote:
Paladin:
Cover
Redirects a melee attack against the target party member to you.

Divine Veil
Grants a HoT effect on all party members within range when a healing spell is cast on you.

Hallowed Ground
Grants imperviousness to melee attacks. Effect fades upon moving.

Holy Succor
Restores target's HP. When cast on another player, restores 50% of their HP in addition to a portion of your own.

Spirits Within
Delivers a melee attack at close range.
Combo Action: Phalanx
Increased damage based on your HP.


Quote:
Warrior:
Warmonger
Increases the maximum HP and attack power of all party members within range, and removes any Sleep effects. Stuns all enemies within range.

Collusion
Redirects enmity generated by target party member's next attack to you.

Vengeance
Redirects a portion of the next damage you sustain back to its source.

Bloodlust
Grants an additional attack to the next weaponskill used.

Steel Cyclone
Delivers a melee attack to enemies in range. Consumes Rampage effect when active to increase damage.
Combo Action: Skull Sunder
Combo Bonus: Critical hit.


Quote:
Monk:
Hundred Fists
Temporarily increases attack speed.

Kick
Adds kicks to auto-attacks. Effect fades upon reuse. MP is continually consumed while effect is active.

Sap
Prevents target from executing actions or moving. MP is continually consumed while effect is active. Effect fades upon executing an action, or if you or the target sustain damage.

Fists of Wind
Converts your attacks into wind attacks and grants a bonus to evasion. Effect fades upon reuse. MP is continually consumed while effect is active. Cannot be used simultaneously with PGL Ability 5 or PGL Ability 6.

Dragon Kick
Delivers a twofold melee attack.
Combo Action: Sucker Punch
Combo Bonus: Chance to render target unable to use weaponskills.


Quote:
Dragoon:
Jump
Performs a jumping attack on the target.

Elusive Jump
Performs a jumping evasion and attack that triggers when you are attacked.

Wyvern Dive
Deals fire damage to all enemies within range of the target.

Dragon's Grasp
Delivers a short-range melee attack.
Combo Action: Leg Sweep
Combo Bonus: Draws in targets with enmity towards you.

Ring of Thorns
Delivers a melee attack to enemies in range.
Combo Action: Impulse Drive
Combo Bonus: Increased critical hit rate.


Quote:
Bard:
Rallying Voice
Increases the maximum HP and certain magic effects of all party members within range.

Blunt Shot
Deals damage to all enemies within range of the target.
Combo: ARC WS 4
Bonus: Chance to inflict Stun.

Ballad of Magi
Gradually restores the MP of all party members within range.

Minuet of Rigor
Gradually increases the TP of all party members within range.

Paeon of War
Increases the physical and magic accuracy of all party members within range.


Quote:
White Mage:
Chainspell
Eliminates cast time of next spell.

Benediction
Instantly restores HP of all party members.

Esuna
Removes an enfeebling effect from the target.

Regen
Gradually restores the target's HP.

Holy
Consumes all MP to deal damage to all enemies within range. Chance to inflict Bind.


Quote:
Black Mage:
Convert
Switches current HP and MP values.

Burst
Deals lightning damage.
Combo Action: Thundara
Combo Bonus: Increased damage based on your HP.

Sleepga
Puts all enemies within range of the target to sleep.

Flare
Deals fire damage to all enemies within range. Chance to inflict DoT effect.

Freeze
Deals ice damage to target and reduces enmity.


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Quote:
Like Final Fantasy XI, the game specs will be extremely high for the time, but in about 5 years, an average machine can run it on max settings with little to no issues. Tanaka also expressed interest in making a benchmark program available.

FilthMcNasty wrote:
I endorse this thread.
#13 Mar 05 2012 at 2:24 PM Rating: Decent
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Here's my random initial impression commentary:

Quote:
Monk:
Kick
Adds kicks to auto-attacks. Effect fades upon reuse. MP is continually consumed while effect is active.


It's not lolFootwork at least.

Quote:
Dragoon:
Elusive Jump
Performs a jumping evasion and attack that triggers when you are attacked.


It's a Third Eye that fights back!

Quote:
Bard:
Ballad of Magi
Gradually restores the MP of all party members within range.


#1 hit song of Radio Free Bard: All Ballads, all the time!

Quote:
White Mage:
Chainspell
Eliminates cast time of next spell.

Black Mage:
Convert
Switches current HP and MP values.


FFXI Red Mages coming to FFXIV is officially dead on the table. Time of death, 0600 hours.
#14 Mar 05 2012 at 3:20 PM Rating: Decent
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Yay for... complexity?
What exactly does "class specific action" mean in this case... any action from another class, or actions that only that class can normally use (like some of the original lancer skills that required a lance for execution)? Confusion, confusion. Well, at least it's something to talk about for a while!
#15 Mar 05 2012 at 3:23 PM Rating: Good
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I'm guessing CSA's refer to the main and sub class of the job, so you could pick a selection of those in addition to what you're whoring out to your other classes already.
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#16 Mar 05 2012 at 3:26 PM Rating: Decent
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I have to admit I don't really get it yet.
Then again, we will see soon anyway.
#17 Mar 05 2012 at 3:33 PM Rating: Decent
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Rinsui wrote:
I have to admit I don't really get it yet.
Then again, we will see soon anyway.

Classes still get to be used. You can use a maximum of 10 other actions from any class you want as long as you meet the requirements.

Jobs lock you down further only allowing 5 actions instead of the original 10. They are also locked to 2 particular jobs.

Paladin
(Marauder/Conjurer)

Monk
(Lancer/Archer)

Warrior
(Gladiator/Pugilist)

Dragoon
(Pugilist/Archer)

Bard
(Conjurer/Thaumaturge)

White Mage
(Gladiator/Pugilist)

Black Mage
(Pugilist/Archer)

What this means is you can't have raise on all jobs, but you can have raise on all classes.

This really is going to define roles alot more. :) It sounds complex but once we see it in action it will make perfect sense I beleive.
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Quote:
Like Final Fantasy XI, the game specs will be extremely high for the time, but in about 5 years, an average machine can run it on max settings with little to no issues. Tanaka also expressed interest in making a benchmark program available.

FilthMcNasty wrote:
I endorse this thread.
#18 Mar 05 2012 at 3:41 PM Rating: Decent
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Ah. So basically we now have one main Job and 2 subjobs per main. Sounds reasonable.
#19 Mar 05 2012 at 3:44 PM Rating: Decent
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Rinsui wrote:
Ah. So basically we now have one main Job and 2 subjobs per main. Sounds reasonable.


Yup or you can skip using a job and have 7 subjobs with a class ^^; I will never use a class again unless I'm soloing lol
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Quote:
Like Final Fantasy XI, the game specs will be extremely high for the time, but in about 5 years, an average machine can run it on max settings with little to no issues. Tanaka also expressed interest in making a benchmark program available.

FilthMcNasty wrote:
I endorse this thread.
#20 Mar 05 2012 at 6:12 PM Rating: Good
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Kahafer wrote:
I like the sub job system of ffxi better, this stuff is just too wonky to me =(


Yes....wonky...

I'm not a fan of random arbitrary bullsh*t, and that's the first impression I got from this. If you're being restrictive and it makes sense -you have some larger perspective that you've poured a lot of thought into, I'm good with that. But just going by this, that's not the case. While I do think they tried to match the essence of what makes up that job (say, Paladin is MRD&CON), and what practically would be beneficial, it sure does come out... wonky.

The whole point of this is supposedly to give jobs some legitimate choices, but even that benefit is barely there. Or in the case for some jobs, not there at all. Every BLM is going to choose Quelling Strike, Decoy, Chameleon, Second Wind and Featherfoot. Those are the only abilities that can help BLM at all, and you get to choose 5.

Ultimately it makes no sense why you can use Invigorate on Monk, but not Warrior. I've been waiting to play Musketeer since we first learned about the guild in Limsa. Now I know if the game ever gets to that point, it'll be little more than a roll of the dice as to whether I'll be able to cast Stoneskin, or parry attacks with Foresight.

In my opinion the negatives far outweigh any positives here. This will (rightfully) confuse players, especially new players, and make content even more difficult to balance for. Imagine if in FFXI they decided to (randomly!) assign use of only 2 of the 6 original jobs to use as sub jobs. That's basically what we have here for XIV to build on.

Edited, Mar 5th 2012 9:08pm by Coyohma
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#21 Mar 05 2012 at 6:20 PM Rating: Good
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I'm kind of intrigued by these changes, however I wonder how some of this will play out for later new levels/jobs/classes.
I think having Jobs that "specialize" in certain abilities is a good step forward, and I also think allowing players to select abilities from the two class pre-requisite is nice as well (sort of like how the original FF Tactics worked) instead of having a subjob system like FFXI. But I wonder how later levels will affect classes vs jobs balancing. So far there will be 7 jobs added along with the 7 classes, so that makes 14 playable fighting "styles", yet there are even more "styles" that could be added (or should I say many would HOPE are in the works to be added) that could be Jobs, i.e. Ninja, Thief, Bst, Drk Knight, Bluemage, Summoner etc. I can see it being pretty interesting if the "Jobs" system works out being great for party play, and "Classes" being great for solo or something. I can see it sort of being a mess trying to add more abilities for every class and jobs if they add more classes to the game along with more jobs, yet I see it being pretty bland just having only 7 jobs and 7 classes. Came to the forum to check on the game, and this caught my eye and got me to pondering lol.

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#22 Mar 05 2012 at 6:26 PM Rating: Good
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As you've pointed out yourself, though, these choices are hardly random and do have intent behind them. While the system has some flaws (choices by players being almost completely superficial on subclass abilities for one), it sets up the groundwork for an interesting tiering system. Complexity isn't necessarily a bad thing. I do not personally play EVE, but I use it as a counter example often due to having several friends that do; EVE is downright infamous for it's incredible opacity to new players and difficulty to learn, and yet it has a consistently growing population of almost entirely rabid - believe me I know - fans.

This has the workings of a pretty interesting system a few years and a few jobs down the road. Something akin to FFT, but with a wider base and shallower depth, with more advanced jobs requiring more than two classes to unlock and at higher level, for instance.
#23 Mar 05 2012 at 7:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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samosamo wrote:
The series of job quests will not involve extremely difficult tasks such as fighting primals. Rather, they will be new game elements intended to boost character growth and motivate players.


It will combine and unite the disparate elements of the traditional MMORPG quest! It will be the work of genius!

"Bring me one {item} and the tails of seven {monster} to prove that you are worthy to walk the path of a {job}!"
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#24 Mar 05 2012 at 7:36 PM Rating: Good
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Hulan wrote:
As you've pointed out yourself, though, these choices are hardly random and do have intent behind them. While the system has some flaws (choices by players being almost completely superficial on subclass abilities for one), it sets up the groundwork for an interesting tiering system. Complexity isn't necessarily a bad thing. I do not personally play EVE, but I use it as a counter example often due to having several friends that do; EVE is downright infamous for it's incredible opacity to new players and difficulty to learn, and yet it has a consistently growing population of almost entirely rabid - believe me I know - fans.

This has the workings of a pretty interesting system a few years and a few jobs down the road. Something akin to FFT, but with a wider base and shallower depth, with more advanced jobs requiring more than two classes to unlock and at higher level, for instance.

No matter what concept you come up with, it has to mesh with what's existing. Paladin was the example of where it actually does check out logically. But can you explain to me how a Pugilist is an integral part of Black Mage? Or how Monk somehow deals with Archer? Moreso than Marauder? I believe they tried, but there's no way to do this without it looking haphazardly thrown together without rhyme or reason.

You can say it's complex, but I feel the only complexity is in why they decided to do this, not how to best decide a situation in-game with 5 abilities that might as well be auto-selected for you. To me, the take away here is that unfortunately, classes have really hamstrung what the job system could have been.
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#25 Mar 05 2012 at 8:19 PM Rating: Good
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Coyohma wrote:
Hulan wrote:
As you've pointed out yourself, though, these choices are hardly random and do have intent behind them. While the system has some flaws (choices by players being almost completely superficial on subclass abilities for one), it sets up the groundwork for an interesting tiering system. Complexity isn't necessarily a bad thing. I do not personally play EVE, but I use it as a counter example often due to having several friends that do; EVE is downright infamous for it's incredible opacity to new players and difficulty to learn, and yet it has a consistently growing population of almost entirely rabid - believe me I know - fans.

This has the workings of a pretty interesting system a few years and a few jobs down the road. Something akin to FFT, but with a wider base and shallower depth, with more advanced jobs requiring more than two classes to unlock and at higher level, for instance.

No matter what concept you come up with, it has to mesh with what's existing. Paladin was the example of where it actually does check out logically. But can you explain to me how a Pugilist is an integral part of Black Mage? Or how Monk somehow deals with Archer? Moreso than Marauder? I believe they tried, but there's no way to do this without it looking haphazardly thrown together without rhyme or reason.

You can say it's complex, but I feel the only complexity is in why they decided to do this, not how to best decide a situation in-game with 5 abilities that might as well be auto-selected for you. To me, the take away here is that unfortunately, classes have really hamstrung what the job system could have been.

This is probably true, I suppose we're just taking the glass half empty and full sides of the same argument respectively.

Edit: That is to say, I agree that without classes - or perhaps more accurately, with just jobs - the job system would have been much stronger. That being said, I still see a lot of forethought and potential in the current implementation. Just because something isn't as great as it could have been, doesn't mean it can't be at least good.

Edited, Mar 5th 2012 9:21pm by Hulan
#26 Mar 05 2012 at 8:58 PM Rating: Decent
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924 posts
Well looking over it here's what we can choose:

Ok :) We had no classes before when we could use any ability at any level as long as we had it.

Than they changed it and made certain abilities on usable on certain classes. Below is that list:

Quote:
Gladiator:
Only War:
Fast Blade
Savage Blade
Flat Blade

All:
Rampart
Flash
Shield Bash
Sentinel
Outmaneuver


Quote:
Puglist:
Only War:
Pummel
Concussive Blow
Sucker Punch
Demolish

All:
Featherfoot
Second Wind
Blindside


Quote:
Marauder:
Only War:
Heavy Swing
Brutal Swing
Skull Sunder
Maim
Overpower

All:
Foresight
Bloodbath
Provoke


Quote:
Archer:
Only War:
Heavy Shot
Piercing Arrow
Leaden Arrow
Gloom Arrow

All:
Decoy
Hawk's Eye
Quelling Strike
Chameleon


Quote:
Lancer:
Only War:
True Thrust
Vorpal Thrust
Feint
Heavy Thrust
Impulse Drive
Leg Sweep

All:
Blood for Blood
Invigorate
Keen Flurry


Quote:
Thaumaturge:
All:
Thunder
Necrogenesis
Fire
Dark Seal
Resonance
Sanguine Rite
Fira


Quote:
Conjurer:
All:
Stone
Cure
Aero
Protect
Raise
Stoneskin
Sacred Prism


Now they are breaking it down that the new jobs; which you don't have to use; get the abilities in a previous post, the abilities from the base class and can use 5 of the following:

Quote:
Paladin:
Heavy Swing
Brutal Swing
Skull Sunder
Maim
Overpower
Foresight
Bloodbath
Provoke
Stone
Cure
Aero
Protect
Raise
Stoneskin
Sacred Prism


Quote:
Monk:
True Thrust
Vorpal Thrust
Feint
Heavy Thrust
Impulse Drive
Leg Sweep
Blood for Blood
Invigorate
Keen Flurry
Heavy Shot
Piercing Arrow
Leaden Arrow
Gloom Arrow
Decoy
Hawk's Eye
Quelling Strike
Chameleon


Quote:
Warrior:
Fast Blade
Savage Blade
Flat Blade
Rampart
Flash
Shield Bash
Sentinel
Outmaneuver
Pummel
Concussive Blow
Sucker Punch
Demolish
Featherfoot
Second Wind
Blindside


Quote:
Dragoon:
Pummel
Concussive Blow
Sucker Punch
Demolish
Featherfoot
Second Wind
Blindside
Heavy Shot
Piercing Arrow
Leaden Arrow
Gloom Arrow
Decoy
Hawk's Eye
Quelling Strike
Chameleon


Quote:
Bard:
Stone
Cure
Aero
Protect
Raise
Stoneskin
Sacred Prism
Thunder
Necrogenesis
Fire
Dark Seal
Resonance
Sanguine Rite
Fira


Quote:
White Mage:
Rampart
Flash
Shield Bash
Sentinel
Outmaneuver
Featherfoot
Second Wind
Blindside


[quote]Black Mage:
Featherfoot
Second Wind
Blindside
Decoy
Hawk's Eye
Quelling Strike
Chameleon[/quote]


Edited, Mar 5th 2012 7:24pm by Elionara
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Quote:
Like Final Fantasy XI, the game specs will be extremely high for the time, but in about 5 years, an average machine can run it on max settings with little to no issues. Tanaka also expressed interest in making a benchmark program available.

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#27 Mar 05 2012 at 10:41 PM Rating: Good
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This makes about as much sense to me as the physical levels, and I predict that it will end up in the same place. They are giving each job five abilities that could just have easily (and with much less hassle) been implemented as class specific skills, and they are calling it a 'job system'? Is this a joke? I really hope they have something more elaborate and deep planned for 2.0, because wow....just wow.

Job/Subjob <Can I have it?>
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#28 Mar 05 2012 at 11:07 PM Rating: Excellent
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3,530 posts
Elionara wrote:
Now they are breaking it down that the new jobs; which you don't have to use;


I wonder how dramatic the boost to one's base parameters for equipping a job will be - if it's so high that there's no way to compensate for the difference as a "jobless" character, then it could be that we do, in fact, have to use them.

(Unless by "them" you were referring to abilities... in which case, just rephrase my wonderment to suit a question :P)
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#29 Mar 05 2012 at 11:16 PM Rating: Good
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924 posts
mullesch85 wrote:
This makes about as much sense to me as the physical levels, and I predict that it will end up in the same place. They are giving each job five abilities that could just have easily (and with much less hassle) been implemented as class specific skills, and they are calling it a 'job system'? Is this a joke? I really hope they have something more elaborate and deep planned for 2.0, because wow....just wow.

Job/Subjob <Can I have it?>


What you fail to realize is this is something for both casual and non casual gamers. The "class" system is for those in smaller parties ~3/4 and solo players. You can have greater flexibility.

The "Job" system is for those in larger parties that require a black mage with hundreds of more MP than a thaumaturge and more potent magic; or a paladin with perhaps less hp but a sh*tton more defense.

You and most people are looking at this the wrong way. He's not making them to replace classes per say, but give more of a distinct edge in large groups. It's a two-tier job system to work with both styles of game play. He's mentioned this before numerous times in his posts as to what he was planning and why.

If you need the gameplay of FFXI please look there.

I'd also like to point out this system has in some variations been used in single player FF's as well as 1st gen mmo's.

Edited, Mar 5th 2012 9:28pm by Elionara
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Quote:
Like Final Fantasy XI, the game specs will be extremely high for the time, but in about 5 years, an average machine can run it on max settings with little to no issues. Tanaka also expressed interest in making a benchmark program available.

FilthMcNasty wrote:
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#30 Mar 06 2012 at 5:08 AM Rating: Decent
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Elionara wrote:

If you need the gameplay of FFXI please look there.


Sentiments that I've agreed with since day one. Sadly, I think we're the minority here and that's why I'm not currently playing. This game could be something good but a lot of the changes strike me as trying to get FFXIV do a bad impersonation of FFXI. I'm hoping it turns out otherwise but the job system sounds like "in our current set up we couldn't give you the FFXI job system so we're tacking it on the best we can."

I'm also disappointed that I get to do quests to get back abilities I already had (some I may have had to earn once already).

I do remember at launch (and fairly recently) hearing people say I don't like this game because it doesn't have jobs. Pointing out that class and jobs are really just interchangeable words but saying "job system" was so vital to enjoyment over saying "class system." Same thing with saying that gladiator was the ffxiv equivalent of paladin, but they couldn't enjoy gladiator because it wasn't named paladin, etc.

Personally, I think I'm just nervous since the previous class overhaul nuked my enjoyment of the mages.
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#31 Mar 06 2012 at 6:26 AM Rating: Good
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All I remember 6-12 months ago was, "we want class uniqueness". Now Yoshi removes a system with broad choices (remember Tanaka's system) and introduces a system that should accomplish everyones wish and (nobody has even used the system in action yet) all I hear is, "Waaahh...". Really... where did you think this would all end?

Most of us probably complained at one point about the job system in XI because we were locked into specific job/subjob requirements to get into parties. The system was difficult to balance because of all the job choices and abilities. What he has done is introduce something akin to the different specs in WoW or any other western MMO. Now you can have a Paladin healer spec or a DD spec. The other classes also have a choice between two different specs. To me it makes good sense.



Edited, Mar 6th 2012 8:14am by kainsilv
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#32 Mar 06 2012 at 7:58 AM Rating: Good
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kainsilv wrote:
All I remember 6-12 months ago was, "we want class uniqueness". Now Yoshi removes a system with broad choices (remember Tanaka's system) and introduces a system that should accomplish everyones wish and (nobody has even used the system in action yet) all I hear is, "Waaahh...". Really... where did you think this would all end?

Most of us probably complained at one point about the job system in XI because we were locked into specific job/subjob requirements to get into parties. The system was difficult to balance because of all the job choices and abilities. What he has done is introduce something akin to the different specs in WoW or any other western MMO. Now you can have a Paladin healer spec or a DD spec. The other classes also have a choice between two different specs. To me it makes good sense.

Edited, Mar 6th 2012 8:14am by kainsilv


I 100% agree with you. Under Tanaka's system while it was still unique in it's own right, there was no difference really for any job. You could use abilities along side the quested(marks) one and any jobs skills would work almost the same on your current.

Under this new 2-tier system we have more uniqueness and definition of what the job should be. We can narrow our focus to a certain type of job as well (like you said). GLD is still an good DD job as well. Even with my limited skills for attacking, or should I say, the limited amount of times I use pure attacks so I maintain hate, I still pull 5-7k in damage on Ifrit; while the rest of the party is 9-11k each for the main DD mages. Not too shabby.

Under this new system I can use a hate grabbing build or I can custom spec it out how I want depending on the situation. The situation might even call for a GLD instead of a PLD as well.
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Quote:
Like Final Fantasy XI, the game specs will be extremely high for the time, but in about 5 years, an average machine can run it on max settings with little to no issues. Tanaka also expressed interest in making a benchmark program available.

FilthMcNasty wrote:
I endorse this thread.
#33 Mar 06 2012 at 8:39 AM Rating: Decent
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2,214 posts
Yeah, I think one of the things people are missing is that it's a trade-off. You want to use the specialized abilities, you get the job. If you don't need them, or if you need a more general build, then you go with your class.

There has been a big issue with Raise, Cure, and Second Wind being lost. However, all classes but Gld can use Second Wind. And, if the new abilities are as good as they sound, there should be less death, and Gld will be less dependant on Con for healing, allowing Whms to heal more party members, rather than focusing on the tank (the current strats for most fights require a dedicated healer just to the tank).

The general party dynamics are going to change. We are regaining Mob control abilities (Bard gets AoE Stun), with the magic change, we should now be able to stop casts by performing knock-back and stun attacks. And in general, how we currently fight will become something new again.

In time we will see how the new Jobs balance out, and be sure that we will be getting new abilities in the future to augment what we already have, and they are currently working on Rdm, Bst, and Thf (and don't forget Smn). And Yoshi has been hinting at releasing one of the Classes for this pre 2.0... Ideally all three of these will be available in some form at or around 2.0.

Another step in the right direction. Here's to hoping it's functional, and people adapt well. And hopefully the quests are not completely time lagged (I am sure there will be some that we have to wait until leve reset or something similar during some quests).
#34 Mar 06 2012 at 12:09 PM Rating: Good
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1,310 posts
Elionara wrote:
You and most people are looking at this the wrong way. He's not making them to replace classes per say, but give more of a distinct edge in large groups. It's a two-tier job system to work with both styles of game play. He's mentioned this before numerous times in his posts as to what he was planning and why.


This is how I look at it.

The job system is the reaction of the armory system being too non-specific. Everyone could wear any type of armor at any level. And since every class could equip every ability, they all ended up cherry-picking the same abilities, armor and looking indistinctive from one another. People argued the customization pendulum had swung too far.

So, the pendulum has swung back. Now there's JSE. There's strict requirements to unlock specific jobs, even more rigid than FFXI. There's a strict limit on the number of cross-class abilities to choose from for your job, and even a limit on which classes you can take them from. But ironically, we're right back in the same boat. Now everyone will be picking the same abilities, armor and looking indistinctive from one another, only within the purview of 7 jobs.

When the pendulum swung back, it's almost touching right where it left off, if you ask me.

Edit: Spelling

Edited, Mar 6th 2012 1:48pm by Xoie
#35 Mar 06 2012 at 12:19 PM Rating: Decent
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924 posts
Xoie wrote:
Elionara wrote:
[quote=mullesch85]You and most people are looking at this the wrong way. He's not making them to replace classes per say, but give more of a distinct edge in large groups. It's a two-tier job system to work with both styles of game play. He's mentioned this before numerous times in his posts as to what he was planning and why.


This is how I look at it.

The job system is the reaction of the armory system being too non-specific. Everyone could wear any type of armor at any level. And since every class could equip every ability, they all ended up cherry-picking the same abilities, armor and looking indistinctive from one another. People argued the customization pendulum had swung too far.

So, the pendulum has swung back. Now there's JSE. There's strict requirements to unlock specific jobs, even more rigid than FFXI. There's a strict limit on the number of cross-class abilities to choose from for you job, and even a limit on which classes you can take them from. But ironically, we're right back in the same boat. Now everyone will be picking the same abilities, armor and looking indistivtive from one another, only within the pervue of 7 jobs.

When the pendulum swung back, it's almost touching right where it left off, if you ask me.


That is true in a way, I won't deny it. Remember though that 2.0 will usher in "job" squares... best way to describe them. So you can switch abilities on the fly.

You can switch abilities now whenever you want but it's hard in the middle of battle. When 2.0 hits with the click of a button you can switch from an offtank DD PLD to a full on tank. Minus the abilitiy kewl down for the new ones changes of course.

They are getting the mechanics and game setup for 2.0. They are easing us into what it will become so we don't get too shocked.

Come 2.0 this will make even more sense, while yes people will choose the same abilities for the same "style" of job, i.e. tankie tank, or dd off-tank; they will still have multiple styles of builds for themselves.

We have to look beyond what he's doing right now and look to the planned released documents. IMHO that is ^^
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Quote:
Like Final Fantasy XI, the game specs will be extremely high for the time, but in about 5 years, an average machine can run it on max settings with little to no issues. Tanaka also expressed interest in making a benchmark program available.

FilthMcNasty wrote:
I endorse this thread.
#36 Mar 06 2012 at 12:33 PM Rating: Default
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124 posts
kainsilv wrote:
All I remember 6-12 months ago was, "we want class uniqueness". Now Yoshi removes a system with broad choices (remember Tanaka's system) and introduces a system that should accomplish everyones wish and (nobody has even used the system in action yet) all I hear is, "Waaahh...". Really... where did you think this would all end?

Most of us probably complained at one point about the job system in XI because we were locked into specific job/subjob requirements to get into parties. The system was difficult to balance because of all the job choices and abilities. What he has done is introduce something akin to the different specs in WoW or any other western MMO. Now you can have a Paladin healer spec or a DD spec. The other classes also have a choice between two different specs. To me it makes good sense.
Edited, Mar 6th 2012 8:14am by kainsilv


I don't see any relation to a western-style spec-system. What are you reading? What I've seen is an extravagant version of XI's system. The amount of options on the menu right now are absolutely insane, and blows the cookie-cutter subjobs from XI out of the water.
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#37 Mar 06 2012 at 12:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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BlynkTheSneak wrote:
I don't see any relation to a western-style spec-system. What are you reading? What I've seen is an extravagant version of XI's system. The amount of options on the menu right now are absolutely insane, and blows the cookie-cutter subjobs from XI out of the water.


You're right that this is nothing like a western-style tech tree, but I fail to see how less choice results in fewer cookie cutter builds.
#38 Mar 06 2012 at 1:20 PM Rating: Decent
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Xoie wrote:
BlynkTheSneak wrote:
I don't see any relation to a western-style spec-system. What are you reading? What I've seen is an extravagant version of XI's system. The amount of options on the menu right now are absolutely insane, and blows the cookie-cutter subjobs from XI out of the water.


You're right that this is nothing like a western-style tech tree, but I fail to see how less choice results in fewer cookie cutter builds.


There will be fewer builds. Right now a gladiator has access to 46 skills. 46! You still have access as a gladiator; you don't need to use PLD as it will be more of a dedicated tank, specializing in something. Jobs will allow us to focus on a few particular aspects of our class. This is a GOOD move; and you're only going to be forced into using if you let yourself. All content currently and I'm sure down the road will be doable by classes; even if jobs are better.

Sample:
Quote:
Available Skills for Paladin:
Heavy Swing
Brutal Swing
Skull Sunder
Maim
Overpower
Foresight
Bloodbath
Provoke
Stone
Cure
Aero
Protect
Raise
Stoneskin
Sacred Prism

Build Combos:
DD (dd gladiator works really efficiently as well, I've done it):
Heavy Swing
Brutal Swing
Skull Sunder
Maim
Overpower

Tank:
Foresight
Provoke
Cure
Raise
Sacred Prism

Off-Tank:
Overpower
Foresight
Provoke
Cure
Sacred Prism

Insert Job Here:
anything


Yeah it's going to be a pain in the *** to switch right now, but broad picture is 2.0 = one click change of playstyle. Go from off tank to DD than to tank if you get too much hate.
____________________________
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/story.html?story=18309
Quote:
Like Final Fantasy XI, the game specs will be extremely high for the time, but in about 5 years, an average machine can run it on max settings with little to no issues. Tanaka also expressed interest in making a benchmark program available.

FilthMcNasty wrote:
I endorse this thread.
#39 Mar 06 2012 at 2:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Elionara wrote:
Xoie wrote:
BlynkTheSneak wrote:
I don't see any relation to a western-style spec-system. What are you reading? What I've seen is an extravagant version of XI's system. The amount of options on the menu right now are absolutely insane, and blows the cookie-cutter subjobs from XI out of the water.


You're right that this is nothing like a western-style tech tree, but I fail to see how less choice results in fewer cookie cutter builds.


There will be fewer builds. Right now a gladiator has access to 46 skills. 46! You still have access as a gladiator; you don't need to use PLD as it will be more of a dedicated tank, specializing in something. Jobs will allow us to focus on a few particular aspects of our class. This is a GOOD move; and you're only going to be forced into using if you let yourself. All content currently and I'm sure down the road will be doable by classes; even if jobs are better.

Sample:
Quote:
Available Skills for Paladin:
Heavy Swing
Brutal Swing
Skull Sunder
Maim
Overpower
Foresight
Bloodbath
Provoke
Stone
Cure
Aero
Protect
Raise
Stoneskin
Sacred Prism

Build Combos:
DD (dd gladiator works really efficiently as well, I've done it):
Heavy Swing
Brutal Swing
Skull Sunder
Maim
Overpower

Tank:
Foresight
Provoke
Cure
Raise
Sacred Prism

Off-Tank:
Overpower
Foresight
Provoke
Cure
Sacred Prism

Insert Job Here:
anything


Yeah it's going to be a pain in the *** to switch right now, but broad picture is 2.0 = one click change of playstyle. Go from off tank to DD than to tank if you get too much hate.


This is one thing i really like about Rift. You could do 3 or 4 different "jobs" while playing one "class", and you just had to click the little button on the skill tree to swap over.
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#40 Mar 06 2012 at 3:17 PM Rating: Good
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Did anyone else notice in the screenshot showing the equipping of the soul crystal it says "Main Hand" in the window? Grasping at straws but, could this perhaps point to an "Off Hand" soul crystal someday? I know, not likely just daydreaming.
#41 Mar 06 2012 at 3:21 PM Rating: Default
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Xoie wrote:
BlynkTheSneak wrote:
I don't see any relation to a western-style spec-system. What are you reading? What I've seen is an extravagant version of XI's system. The amount of options on the menu right now are absolutely insane, and blows the cookie-cutter subjobs from XI out of the water.


You're right that this is nothing like a western-style tech tree, but I fail to see how less choice results in fewer cookie cutter builds.


I don't know what you mean by the 'less choice results in fewer cookie cutter builds'. Are you trying to say that just because XIV has more choices, that I believe people won't choose cookie-cutter builds? I don't believe that at all.

Many people I've seen discussing this game lately seem to be under the idea that the job-system is replacing the class-system, and that doesn't appear to be true at all. The job system is only meant to be their solution to getting the armory system working well in parties.
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#42 Mar 06 2012 at 3:48 PM Rating: Decent
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BlynkTheSneak wrote:
I don't know what you mean by the 'less choice results in fewer cookie cutter builds'. Are you trying to say that just because XIV has more choices, that I believe people won't choose cookie-cutter builds? I don't believe that at all.


This is what I was considering replying with...

Quote:
No, no, you're not reading what I said right at all. It's nothing to do with cookie cutter builds whatsoever.

What I'm actually trying to say is that you really need to give up panty raiding. It's a disturbing fetish that will land you trouble someday. And speaking of fetishes, I know what you're doing with those bananas, and it really has to stop. Think of the children!


...but then I decided the rate down system was a much more civilized way to go.

Why not try to answer the issue seriously rather than deliberately misrepresent what I'm saying? I might have even been in the mood to agree with or at least respect your opinion if your reasoning was sound. Now I just think you like FFXIV because you're nuts.
#43 Mar 06 2012 at 3:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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From what I can see...the way they are setting this up, they are leaving themselves quite a few options for the future. Are we to believe each job will always only have one job associated with it? I doubt it. Adding in future jobs will be more content. Hopefully future job quests will get harder and harder to accomplish. One thing this game lacks is individuality and a sense of hard-earned self accomplishment.

Heck...they could even branch off DOH and DOL for more specialized jobs.

Anyways, it does kinda suck that the jobs are not really new(as in classes that start at level 1)...but overall, I think its a positive step. It is more of a selling point than a detriment to the game.
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#44 Mar 06 2012 at 4:15 PM Rating: Decent
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Simool wrote:
From what I can see...the way they are setting this up, they are leaving themselves quite a few options for the future. Are we to believe each job will always only have one job associated with it? I doubt it. Adding in future jobs will be more content. Hopefully future job quests will get harder and harder to accomplish. One thing this game lacks is individuality and a sense of hard-earned self accomplishment.

Heck...they could even branch off DOH and DOL for more specialized jobs.

Anyways, it does kinda suck that the jobs are not really new(as in classes that start at level 1)...but overall, I think its a positive step. It is more of a selling point than a detriment to the game.


You might just be on to something more as Yoshi himself said he was toying with the idea of combining the two mages with a gladiator to make a red-mage (but no promises).

I wish today was friday... I really really do. First thing I'm going to do is unlock every dam job, quest all the abilities and than get my armor... if that CAN be done in a weekend, idk :(
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http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/story.html?story=18309
Quote:
Like Final Fantasy XI, the game specs will be extremely high for the time, but in about 5 years, an average machine can run it on max settings with little to no issues. Tanaka also expressed interest in making a benchmark program available.

FilthMcNasty wrote:
I endorse this thread.
#45 Mar 06 2012 at 4:54 PM Rating: Default
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I have he win condition of this thread... I tap my two plains and two mountains and I WOG this thread! The end!

Also looking forward o everyones thoughts about the jobs once they hit :)
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#46 Mar 06 2012 at 5:25 PM Rating: Default
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Xoie wrote:
...but then I decided the rate down system was a much more civilized way to go.

Why not try to answer the issue seriously rather than deliberately misrepresent what I'm saying? I might have even been in the mood to agree with or at least respect your opinion if your reasoning was sound. Now I just think you like FFXIV because you're nuts.


I told you right at the opening of that post that I didn't really know what you meant. It was a very ambiguous message. Instead of replying sarcastically, you could've just said "no, that wasn't what I meant".

You're so hostile that you "deliberately misrepresent" everything I say as a personal attack on you. It's actually pretty hilarious that you've let me upset you to this level. I've read and re-read that message I just wrote to you and I can't understand on any level how you could've possibly taken offense to that.
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#47 Mar 06 2012 at 5:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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Fair enough we can argue it is stretch to call it a western-style tree and that I'm digging to deep to see any similarity. It may not have a specific talent tree where you "insert points" in the abilities you want but essentially by limiting the skills available to each job hopefully what remains is clear builds for people to use. You can cross-over abilities into both classes or you can focus the abilities you pick into one specific build. The point is I can see some logic to the choices and combinations that they proposed. I just don't believe this to be haphazard as was stated in an earlier post.

To review:
≪Parameters and Their Effects≫

Strength
•Attack Power
•Damage dealt by puglist, gladiator, marauder, and lancer arms

Vitality
•Damage taken
•Enhancement Magic Potency
•Maximum HP
•Damage dealt by marauder arms

Dexterity
•Accuracy
•Block Rate
•Parry
•Damage dealt by archer arms

Intelligence
•Attack Magic Potency
•Damage dealt by pugilist arms

Mind
•Healing Magic Potency
•Magic Accuracy
•Damage dealt by gladiator, thaumaturge, and conjurer arms

Piety
•Magic Evasion
•Enfeebling Magic Potency
•Maximum MP
•Damage dealt by archer, lancer, thaumaturge, and conjurer arms
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Paladin
(Marauder/Conjurer)
[VIT+STR/MND+PIE] = MRD build decreases damage taken and increase att. power and CON would increase healing magic potency and max MP

Monk
(Lancer/Archer)
[PIE+STR/DEX+PIE] = Monk will want added MP with new abilities which drain MP for to conduct damaging moves so PIE makes sense. ATT and EVA make sense for a Monk too.

Warrior
(Gladiator/Pugilist)
[MND+STR/INT+STR] = STR makes sense for WAR. The MND and INT I haven't figured out yet but if they have any abilities which might have some sort of elemental damage or healing abilitiy this might make sense. I need to review the proposed abilities again.

Dragoon
(Pugilist/Archer)
[INT+STR/DEX+PIE] = STR and DEX make sense as separate builds. ATT vs EVA. Again I don't have PIE and INT figured out here but depends on the abilities they are given.

Bard
(Conjurer/Thaumaturge)
[MND+PIE/MND+PIE] = Essentially you can go BRD/WHM or BRD/BLM with these two builds. Enhancing magic is key here so in some ways this makes sense.

White Mage
(Gladiator/Pugilist)
[MND+STR/INT+STR] = I'm not sure I understand the reason for STR entirely but MND and INT are choices fit for a WHM.

Black Mage
(Pugilist/Archer)
[INT+STR/DEX+PIE] = Again, without a better understanding of the equipped abilities I cannot provide full reasoning for these choices. My guess would be an Mag ATT build and some sort of DEF, EVA, Emnity reduction build.

I would add a caveat, this is all hypothesis. I don't really know what Yoshi intends. I've been wrong about most of his next moves and pleasantly surprised when something they develop isn't exactly as I forsee. More ideas can be drawn from dev1075-Establishment-of-job-specifics. In the future I see another build option and more abilities to choose from but this is a start.
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#48 Mar 07 2012 at 5:24 PM Rating: Decent
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120 posts
Maybe INT will be a modifier for the new WSs or maybe for blindside? xD Its gonna be like sneak attack+Howling Fist!
#49 Mar 07 2012 at 9:34 PM Rating: Good
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49 posts
Simool wrote:
From what I can see...the way they are setting this up, they are leaving themselves quite a few options for the future. Are we to believe each job will always only have one job associated with it? I doubt it. Adding in future jobs will be more content. Hopefully future job quests will get harder and harder to accomplish. One thing this game lacks is individuality and a sense of hard-earned self accomplishment.



Yoshida would agree 100% with your statement. I think Yoshida considered the Armory system to be the greatest weakness in FFXIV. There was an interview posted today at MMORPG.com and one of the questions was:


http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/446/feature/6161/The-Future-of-FFXIV-Interview.html/page/1


MMORPG: There seems to be a focus on the reintroduction of the "7 classic jobs" and their quests and general content, how will these new roles affect the existing game?


Yoshida: "I believe that character growth in MMORPGs must fundamentally occur both vertically and horizontally. For example, this growth can take place within a skill tree or by selecting a specific profession after choosing a class. I felt that this was FFXIV’s most overwhelming weakness when I assumed the role of producer and director. The Armoury system is a horizontal growth system that allows players to level multiple classes.


However, as a result of this system, the character classes can start to feel too similar to each other. As such, I felt that it was necessary to implement a vertical growth system by further defining roles. This is why I decided on the implementation of the job system early on. Prior to this, we had to make adjustments to the battle system, and with the implementation of individual combos in patch 1.20, we’re finally at a point where we’re able to implement a vertical character growth system.


In other words, I believe that the job system is a system that has been necessary from the beginning."


Another major point that needs to be taken care of is content. People have always complained about there being very limited content (stuff that may add Immersion™ or fluff elements) and he pretty much states this answering another question (part of his answer):


"Up until now, FFXIV has been very limited when it comes to content and most of the updates ended up being related to introducing additional battle content."


Granted there will be more dynamic content that only the current crowd can experience, but I'm not sure how much of an impact it has had (or will have) on the players or Eorzea. The good news about this, it seems, is that with the release of this patch he "may" have effectively moved the majority of the folks working on Version 1.0 to Version 2.0 while leaving a small crew to finish up the content for patch 1.22 and 1.23 (since the majority seems to be the transfer/distribution to the new client).


I think as far as content is concerned, 1.21 is the last major update (content) for Version 1.0. Patch 1.22 will have the Garuda battle (most likely the size of Ifrit's arena). Patch 1.23 will have the Legatus battle (wouldn't be surprised if it is also the same size as the previous Primal fights). There will be some hot fixes and some battle content, but that is pretty much it. I think he solidifies this with a statement he made to the first question (part of his answer):


"I consider patch 1.21 to be the final step in our plan to rework the current version of FFXIV that we’ve been working on over the past year."
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#50 Mar 07 2012 at 11:41 PM Rating: Good
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3,530 posts
AmbrosiaAmor wrote:
I think as far as content is concerned, 1.21 is the last major update (content) for Version 1.0.... There will be some hot fixes and some battle content, but that is pretty much it.


If that's true, then I have no doubt that 2.0 will be a resounding failure.

Seriously. They've done a couple of mediocre patches since even mentioning 2.0 and the game still struggles with even some of the most basic features of an MMORPG... that, and crafting and gathering classes are absurdly shallow, and the "job system" itself seems as though it's going to be, at best, only a few hours worth of skill-quests! I would be shocked, and yet paradoxically not really very surprised, if this patch marked the last major revision until 2.0.
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"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

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#51 Mar 08 2012 at 12:08 AM Rating: Excellent
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562 posts
AmbrosiaAmor wrote:
I think as far as content is concerned, 1.21 is the last major update (content) for Version 1.0.


KaneKitty wrote:
If that's true, then I have no doubt that 2.0 will be a resounding failure.


If you look at the supporting documents, 1.21 is indeed the last major patch for structural revisions, not including the entire engine and client overhaul for 2.0. 1.22 and 1.23 are mostly content additions:

http://wdl.square-enix.com/ffxiv/download/en/FFXIV_2.0_Outline_EN.pdf
http://wdl.square-enix.com/ffxiv/download/en/FFXIV_2.0_Roadmap_EN.pdf

It should also stand out that FFXIV is already a month behind schedule, 1.21 was timeframed for early Dec. 2011 through early Feb. 2012 - although this isn't completely unexpected. Going forward the major additions sans 2.0 appear to be:

1.22 - Garuda (Primal) battle./ Battle system balance adjustments and Garlean Empire battle content
1.23 - Garlean Empire Legatus battle and Content surrounding the Twelve mythos

What we don't know is how they plan on handling the transition from 1.23 -> 2.0. We know that 'Content surrounding the Twelve mythos' sets the groundwork for the world structure overhaul (vastly needed, as anyone who has spent time around Gridania can tell you), but what is not known is the plans for content addition in regards to 2.0.

Will it just be the client and/or world update? Will there be an expansion pack? Will the level cap increase and if so, what content is there for those levels?

Basically put, with the launch of 1.21 we're entering the countdown to 2.0. There will be endgame content additions, bug fixes and "battle system adjustments" according to supporting documentation prior to the relaunch, but what we don't know is how this all factors into FFXIV 2.0

As far as considering it a "resounding failure", I'm having more fun in this MMORPG than I've ever had in one since my FFXI days. My only complaints are the lack of other participants (a burden even I admit 2.0 might not fix) and a lack of cohesion between 1-49 and level 50. I'm holding steady right now, but if everything leading up to and including 2.0 doesn't bring enough of an audience to population an online world with group-based experiences, I will probably not sustain my subscription.

After all, if I wanted to spend my time soloing a game there are thousands upon thousands of other RPGs I can play that don't require a monthly subscription. For me, I need an MMORPG that places an emphasis on party-based combat to advance ones character, and which is not just relegated to endgame.


Edited, Mar 8th 2012 1:19am by Whales
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