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This game is a utter joke.. seriously.Follow

#102 Mar 26 2012 at 2:10 PM Rating: Good
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Susanoh wrote:
Besides, I'm one of those crazy ones who still enjoys the fantasy aspect of my games, and the concept of fighting hordes of enemies in order to make your way toward a final boss just sits so much better with me than having a few dozen people sitting in a room waiting for a dragon to pop out of thin air so they can be the first to lay a finger on it and "claim" whatever treasure it holds.


For someone who spent the majority of 2004 camped out on Fafnir/Nidhogg, this hits way too close to home. Seriously, I couldn't tell you what else I did for that entire year. It was that disgusting.
#103 Mar 27 2012 at 7:17 AM Rating: Default
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you got to remember this is not! i repeat! not! FFXI there was sooo much down time in FFXI and still is on some things apart from EXPing, and think back just how long it took SE to Make FFXI what it is now.
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#104 Mar 28 2012 at 4:42 AM Rating: Good
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I guess most of us agree that we want something challenging alongside the casual stuff.
Just heaven forbid that the "challenge" comes from wasting hours staring at your widescan,
or from speedrunning the same challengeless dungeon over and over. That's so... 1998.
#105 Apr 01 2012 at 1:16 PM Rating: Default
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Transmigration wrote:
Scyris wrote:
now its a worse than world of warcraft joke.


World of Warcraft is an excellent game and has some of the only endgame that's actually worth doing. FFXIV has always been far, far worse than WoW in every single possible way. The graphics may be shiny, but they also eat $1500 PCs for breakfast on DX9. Please keep your references accurate and comparable.

I want FFXIV to be a good game too, but don't make moronic statements please.

Edited, Mar 9th 2012 6:38am by Transmigration


Seriously? $1500? If you're meaning a laptop, fine, but I completely rebuilt my desktop for about $700 a year ago and it makes mincemeat out of FFXIV. Granted, the game doesn't look all that fantastic (it's not hard to beat WoW, but the detail draw distance is pretty terrible, no matter what settings you change), but to suggest a $1500 PC is insufficient to run this game well is ridiculous.

That being said, to stick on topic - FFXIV isn't a complete joke, but it's a long way from being ready. Even with the new development team, there are a lot of issues that take too long to get fixed. I mean, Ul'dah's inn hasn't been working since release; why is this such a complex issue? Let alone a myriad of balance issues, lack of content issues, performance issues, etc. etc.

Now my hope is that the reason a lot of this isn't getting fixed is that they're re-designing it all from the ground up, in a modular way, that makes it easy to add content. I'm convinced that this was a massive problem in FFXI, though I never saw SE come right out and say "Yeah, our engine wasn't built right for this, and it caused issues."

But now, they have more experience; now, they have more perspective. This game needs to be built in a way where a couple of content developers can build a whole new map with functioning questlines in a week or so, not a month or two. If they succeed in designing it that way, then I think with time, the bugs will be worked out, the performance issues will become a thing of the past (PC power increases alone will fix those), and content will be plentiful, since it will be so easy to generate. If they cripple themselves again, though, I think the game is going to deteriorate very quickly, because I suspect most people don't have a lot of patience left for easily avoided *****-ups.
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#106 Apr 01 2012 at 2:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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VhailorEmp wrote:
But now, they have more experience


Where eight years of FFXI plus FFXIV alpha and beta weren't enough... now SE has experience.
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#107 Apr 01 2012 at 2:47 PM Rating: Good
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KaneKitty wrote:
VhailorEmp wrote:
But now, they have more experience


Where eight years of FFXI plus FFXIV alpha and beta weren't enough... now SE has experience.


The point I was making is that they have to demonstrate that they've learned from it. If they don't, the game's slow revival will fizzle out, 2.0 will be a disaster, and XIV will rapidly die off. If they succeed, it might end up being relevant in a few years.
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#108 Apr 01 2012 at 2:49 PM Rating: Good
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KaneKitty wrote:
VhailorEmp wrote:
But now, they have more experience


Where eight years of FFXI plus FFXIV alpha and beta weren't enough... now SE has experience.


They've always had the experience, they were just too asinine to act on it. It only took them a massive failure and two deep marks on the long-standing franchise to make them actually do something about it.
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#109 Apr 04 2012 at 4:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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Scyris wrote:
what happened to ff11 pre-abbysea leveling? when you actually felt some sense of accomplishment after a level? now its a worse than world of warcraft joke.


Two things...

If it had taken you 3 days to grind from level 40 to 41 would you have felt like it was an accomplishment because it took so long or because you actually got something that made the grind worthwhile?

WoW isn't a valid comparison because there is actually an endgame for it. The necessity for grinding levels is replaced by grinding rep/tokens/gear ect. because there is actually something to do when you reach the level cap. The same cannot be said for FFXIV.
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Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#110 Apr 09 2012 at 5:18 AM Rating: Decent
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When you compare the grind from FFXI to XIV, keep in mind that FFXI wasn't only about xp parties. Sure, there was a grind without a doubt, but part of the reason progression took so long, was because you were running around getting kazham passes, chocobos, doing allegiance quests so you could ride an airship, building reputation so you could unlock other quests and so on.

For better or for worse, XI had a very tangled web of progression that forced you to stop and smell the roses (Or at least skip endless amounts of cutscenes in the process). And they were always pushing out new areas which had similar progression interdependencies. I think it's fair to say that it's already been established XIV simply hasn't been around long enough yet to justify the years of content and polish that XI has, but it remains to be seen whether they will adopt a similar system of derailing the player from their predefined goal of level grinding, and instead place them on a similar track of sidequests for the sake of making progression easier/possible.

People who were still playing before the cap increase past 75 who had enough 75s for a Maat cap will tell you that xp wasn't really that hard to get in the first place. It's a matter of opinion. Without a doubt, the rate of progression is faster in XIV, but just the same it only took 2-3 days of partying in the right areas to go from 1-75. The key was getting used to the game, getting access to areas and knowing how to play your class well. For that, XI was not casual friendly at all; whereas XIV is much more so.

The intent stated by the team working on XIV was to make the game more casually accessible than XI was, but it's already apparent that's the case from just looking at the changes to the level grind. Perhaps sidequests and requirements will be used to temper progression in a similar fashion to XI, when there are more of them available. You can already see a similar dependency on Grand Companies for certain things such as a chocobo and dungeon access, and they're only akin to starting nationality in XI. If and when XIV achieves a similar level of content to XI in the future, it seems fairly likely that the trend will continue, offering players many diversions along the way. Such as the new Imperial Assaults which play quite similar to the way Campaign did.

Finally, keep in mind that there's no guarantee balancing passes to xp won't be applied when 2.0 goes live. Currently we can be fairly certain there will be no levelcap increase, new jobs, etc before that happens. But you never know if the much faster progression is just part of Square's way of thanking those still playing before new content is added and adjustments are made to the algorithms.
#111 Apr 10 2012 at 12:26 AM Rating: Excellent
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It sounds like there is a diversity of players here between those who found the challenge of FFXI appealing and charming and those who willingly embrace casual content. Personally, I fall on the FFXI side. I wouldve been happy if they HAD just made FFXI-2. Gone are the days of desperate planning to fight incredibly tough bosses. The best part about MMOs is that no amount of internet research will guarantee you a victory. Once upon a time, it truly did come down to skill.

It's probably dangerous to say this, but unlike other games MMOs required (or should still require) more than just your ability to turn on the game and spend time in the world. They should challenge you to develop a sense of leadership acumen, social skills, and the ability to compromise. I loved that about FFXI. Some fights simply would not let you pass without a few proper party setups. Some fights were brutal in their requirement of an RDM, WHM, and BRD trio. If you didnt know any, you either didnt participate in that fight or were forced to make friends.

A world of give and take forced people who did want to achieve to give back and help others. Today it seems like everyone can solo their way to 50 given enough time. What's the point of a social game if you have so much solo-able content?
#112 Apr 10 2012 at 8:39 AM Rating: Good
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AchtheMonk wrote:


A world of give and take forced people who did want to achieve to give back and help others. Today it seems like everyone can solo their way to 50 given enough time. What's the point of a social game if you have so much solo-able content?


Given enough time, you could solo to max level in FFXI. It just took a couple of years. I don't consider leveling to be one of those things that require a party, and I hope nothing like that from FFXI carries over.

Now I'm not saying that you should just solo to max level just to be able to do all the content, either. I think there should be more to the lower levels. But it should be sufficient to get good EXP in smaller groups without having to take it to FFXI's extreme of requiring a full party for every little thing.
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#113 Apr 10 2012 at 11:08 AM Rating: Good
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I think you make a solid point. There should be a full spectrum of expediency and soloability. Instead I think there are more like two polar extremes. You either destroy everything and level way too fast in a full party, or level far too slow soloing. It you're in a balanced group you should be able to acquire XP faster, but if you opt to solo it you should make decent XP, but it won't compare to what you could make in a party.

Personally, I think partying has other value that people discount. While leveling up to 75 in FFXI, I had an opportunity to build new friendships that later played pivotal roles in my ability to take part in end-game activities. The needs of various parties differs throughout one's journey to 75. Between 60 and 65, Monks get a weaponskill that created a magic burst in demand for partying. At 70, the preference is multi-MNK parties for bones. I made various friends all through my journey to the top. I think The Old Republic blew it big time on this. There is absolutely zero reason to join a guild until you get to end-game. The path to level 50 is so quick and fast that the community doesn't have time to develop. People are more focused on personal (and private) progress rather than building relationships and alliances that might come in handy later.

MMOs are a great equalizer. Everyone knows of the whiny guy or girl who sits on a common area begging for help for every thing. A few are even intuitively aware that said whiner doesn't lift a finger for others. Other people know that the challenge Mr or Mrs. whiner is begging for help on is something perfectly soloable without a great amount of skill, but it just requires a miniscule amount of patience and perhaps the effort to read about the quest on the internet first.

There's a reason why those people don't advance very fast despite the time they put into the game and the fact that their toon is comparably equivalent in power to any other toon. They're missing something more. Something intrinsically required to success in MMOs, which for lack of a better term is the ability to have a socially accepted presence.

If MMOs strip away the need for developing that skill or worse only pose that need in a select few gates where everyone is congregating, it might as well be a singleplayer game. I would argue that even stalwart casual players don't want to play an MMO for a completely solo'd experience.

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#114 Apr 10 2012 at 2:18 PM Rating: Decent
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It is not the job of the developer to build a community, it is their job to put well placed tools in their games, for said community to be able to build itself and Accordingly. If people wanna rush and miss out on the fun of grinding dodos or whatever then that is their problem as much as it where if you chose to take your time, grind out and reach max level 3 years Later. No side of the argument has the right to dictate how the other side should play the game they are paying for, but take into consideration that those that are the larger % of the player base should dictate within reason where the game goes, for example in WOW, the vast majority are casual players, so it would make no sense for blizzard to develop their game, for the 1-10% of hardcore players that play their game, is just a stupid business decision, but that should not mean, that the entire content being developed should cater to casuals.

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#115 Apr 10 2012 at 2:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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Ostia wrote:
It is not the job of the developer to build a community, it is their job to put well placed tools in their games, for said community to be able to build itself and Accordingly.


I don't think that's quite right. The "if you build an MMO, the community will come" method doesn't really exist.

SE already built FFXI's community through their previous Final Fantasy titles. People came to play a Final Fantasy game online for the first time (think of all the Sephiroths and Yunas walking around in 2003) and if it wasn't for that name recognition, I don't think FFXI would have done as well as it did.

Second of all, developers absolutely have a hand in shaping the community far more than just handing everyone a hammer and letting them have at it. As rudimentary as they were, the friendlist, search, party, and linkshell features combined with the need to group to make progress combined with encouraging people to stick with one character (who could have many jobs) all helped create a stable community where people could find each other by name. This didn't just happen by accident. The game was designed to get people to interact in this manner and to form friendships to accomplish their goals.

It's not to say that the community couldn't develop in unpredictable ways, like how FFXIAH sprung up to SE's surprise. But, there has to be more to it than just making a bunch of random "tools" and hoping it all works out somehow. Without a solid foundation in order for a community to be built, people will come for the Final Fantasy brand, but what will they be staying for?
#116 Apr 10 2012 at 4:13 PM Rating: Good
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The developer's certainly have a hand in making their community flourish. The main reason why everyone was so quiet for so many months after launch was because the character chat limit and the UI was such a hassle no one spoke to one another.
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#117 Apr 10 2012 at 4:14 PM Rating: Default
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It is practically impossible to develop a MMO and play Community police at the same time, it just does not work that way, and it should not(Atleast on a successful one with millions of players), also FFXI community had nothing to do with it's brand name, FF has sold up to 100 million copies, yet fFXI capped at 500K! And it did as good as Everquest did at the same time, so to say that FFXI was successful because it had final fantasy on it's name is just false, it was an upgraded version of EQ, and did practically equally good for it's time.
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#118 Apr 10 2012 at 5:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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AchtheMonk wrote:
Gone are the days of desperate planning to fight incredibly tough bosses.


Which game are you talking about? XI didn't have any incredibly tough bosses. In fact, the only thing incredibly tough about any top tier NMs was claiming them.

AchtheMonk wrote:
Some fights simply would not let you pass without a few proper party setups. Some fights were brutal in their requirement of an RDM, WHM, and BRD trio. If you didnt know any, you either didnt participate in that fight or were forced to make friends.


This was one of the things I didn't like about the game. It's not that I didn't want to make friends, it's that I didn't want to force those friends to play a job they'd rather not. I chalked this up in the poor design column. I appreciate that XI has so many jobs to select from, but I felt that the poorly planned encounters required you to have certain jobs in your group.

If there were a poll taken here about why people quit FFXI, I'm almost certain you'd see responses like:

"I got tired of waiting on a bard."
"I was sick of being the only white mage who showed up to events."
"I love paladin and I wanted to tank, but everyone requires ninja."

AchtheMonk wrote:
What's the point of a social game if you have so much solo-able content?


In a word, variety. Not everyone wants to chat all the time. I liked that XI was a world that you could always go in and find people to talk to, but I didn't like that you couldn't always find something to do. XI provided a good amount of variety, but much of that was limited in some way. You needed to find more people on the same step of a quest as you were. The NM you wanted had just been killed and was on a long respawn timer. You had to wait until midnight in Japan before you could progress.

I'm not exactly a fan of casual content as most would define it. I just want the ability to login and get something done, regardless of difficulty, when I actually have the time to do it. Not a 4am when the next window is up. Not at 10am Sunday morning when a week has passed in Japan.




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Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#119 Apr 10 2012 at 8:37 PM Rating: Default
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I found Long-Bowed Chariot extremely difficult after Salvage was released. I found Salvage difficult in general and it took me a long time with our team to figure out how to manage him. Now once we had him down, it was a quick 4min fight every time, but for a long while it was wipe after wipe after wipe. If he was easy for you, then I guess you are just a better player.

I will concede claiming is annoying, especially when you know the playing field isn't level. Half the room is using 3rd party software to cheat a claim. But I also think FFXI benefitted from having astronomically challenging setups like that. Absolute Virtue being another good example. The presence of said fights/NMs/loot gives everyone, casual and hardcore alike, something to dream about. If Nidhogg was an instanced fight and everyone had a shot at a ridill, Ridill wouldn't be worth sh*t. Not everyone is meant to have a ridill. It requires more than just simply being in the party when it drops, same for the relic weapons.

FFXIclopedia did the math and showed it takes 2yrs to get a relic weapon. I don't know anyone who'd want to wait 2yrs. The people who own relic weapons had to go beyond to get it. They either bought gil, which is something I wish could've been stopped, or they had to build consensus among the people they played with that they should be the person to get the ancient currency to have one. THat kind of stuff is brilliant. If XI gets to the point where they're handing out relic weapons or simply making it a manner of "doing your dailies" for 6mos (i.e. TOR) then I think they've lost something.

If that same poll were taken here is what I'd say to those people:

1. Level your own bard or find something else in that variety to do.
2. Find a different group, because the people in your group obviously aren't committed to winning, they're just committed to themselves. (Another function of social skills being necessary in an MMO)
3. Level a ninja and a Paladin. Some missions require a meat shield others require a blink tank, still others require a trio of DDs. That's another brilliant point of XI and frankly another brilliant point of the job system inherent in FF games. TOR and WoW both don't have that.


I think casual content for the sake of broadening your experience in an MMO is very good content. If a game was just a matter of tough leveling and intense battles I don't think it'd be a good game. What I see though is a lot of casual content and then "casual" leveling and "casual" HNM fights. That way everyone gets a chance to fight Nidhogg. Well, I hate to say it, but not everyone should fight Nidhogg, if you want the experience go do a KSNM99. If you want "Nidhogg" you gotta jump in the hellion pit with the rest of the rabble and "play the game". I hated half the mother truckers camping Nidhogg, almost all were notorious cheaters, hacks, grievers, and unpleasant personalities to even play with. They epitomize the Penny-Arcade "Fvckwad" on the internet. But if you can hack in that group and prove you deserve the drop, well...maybe you really do.



Edited, Apr 10th 2012 10:41pm by AchtheMonk
#120 Apr 10 2012 at 9:58 PM Rating: Good
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Scyris wrote:
So the new jobs just came out, people are already in full af.. wtf is square doing?

Leveling dow/dom jobs is also way to fast, i went 19 to 26 in not even 2 hours in a non-pl party, what happened to ff11 pre-abbysea leveling? when you actually felt some sense of accomplishment after a level? now its a worse than world of warcraft joke. Are they going to fix the obscene dow/dom leveling speeds at all?


There are still a lot of shouts for AF parties in Uldah. I've noticed in joining these pickup AF parties that many are new players with their first 50 or players just wanting to help others out. These type of pickup parties are fun and remind me of FFXI, especially the AF Body fights. Usually takes about an hour or two to get a win. And rarely it happens in 30 minutes. But the learning process is the same as FFXI. Learn from failing. It's a great way to meet new players and earn trust in the community.

For those saying there is no community when was the last time you replied to a pickup party shout? Cause every 5-15 seconds there is a shout for something that someone needs help with in Uldah. The server merge has done great things for the player base. Don't be afraid. Have all your AF? Help others! Bored? Help others!

The sense of accomplishment isn't from grinding mindless levels or getting all your AF / gear. It's from helping others and answering questions in a helpful manner. Instead of selling your "worthless" gear to an npc ask in a shout if anyone wants it. Your junk is another players gold. When was the last time you decided to be a Conjurer or Whitemage before hopping on your chocobo so you could jump off and help a solo player (throw buffs, cures, or raise). And then be off on your way.

I'll never forget the first time I stepped outside Bastok, set my targets on a level 4 lizard and proceeded to get my *** handed to me. When I knew my death was imminent my health suddenly shot to 100% and I became fully buffed. Told to run inside and not to take on a level 4 until I was higher! Thought it was the coolest thing ever to happen to me in a game at the time.

It's the journey, not the destination.
#121 Apr 10 2012 at 11:38 PM Rating: Excellent
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AchtheMonk wrote:
I think casual content for the sake of broadening your experience in an MMO is very good content. If a game was just a matter of tough leveling and intense battles I don't think it'd be a good game. What I see though is a lot of casual content and then "casual" leveling and "casual" HNM fights. That way everyone gets a chance to fight Nidhogg. Well, I hate to say it, but not everyone should fight Nidhogg, if you want the experience go do a KSNM99. If you want "Nidhogg" you gotta jump in the hellion pit with the rest of the rabble and "play the game". I hated half the mother truckers camping Nidhogg, almost all were notorious cheaters, hacks, grievers, and unpleasant personalities to even play with. They epitomize the Penny-Arcade "Fvckwad" on the internet. But if you can hack in that group and prove you deserve the drop, well...maybe you really do.


I disagree with this.

Developers make "casual" content because it allows the users of the game to experience that content. HNMs in FFXI such as Nidhogg didn't have much appeal with many people I know, even among FFXI players I knew very few who ever had any desire to get into it (when it was a world spawn that is, which it seems is what you're referring to). The time requirements, the pop conditions, the activity itself is something that appeals to a very limited amount of players. Aside from that, you yourself don't have very kind words to say about the people participating in these events. Why should it be required that you associate yourself with, in your words, "cheaters, hacks, grievers, and unpleasant personalities" and put up with a very unappealing and restrictive activity when the developers have the choice to offer alternative methods of experiencing content and rewards that are not so restrictive and appeal to a wider audience?

I also find it odd that you say those who want to fight Nidhogg must "play the game" while criticizing other, more accessible methods of content. Casual methods, as in, ones that allow a wide range of people to jump in and play, is playing a game. 24+ hour world spawn HNMs involve more waiting and less gameplay than any casual method could ever involve. I am not advocating that every activity should be soloable and done in 10 minutes or less, but I believe the old FFXI world spawn HNMs are not the type of content that can attract a large number of players. It only appeals to those who both have the time to dedicate to them, and would rather dedicate their time to them than doing something else. The MMO market has some very appealing games out there right now, I think developers would do well to focus on content that the majority of people find enjoyable and want to play in the face of competition.

Edited, Apr 11th 2012 1:39am by Susanoh
#122 Apr 11 2012 at 2:48 AM Rating: Good
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AchtheMonk wrote:
The people who own relic weapons had to go beyond to get it. They either bought gil, which is something I wish could've been stopped, or they had to build consensus among the people they played with that they should be the person to get the ancient currency to have one. THat kind of stuff is brilliant. If XI gets to the point where they're handing out relic weapons or simply making it a manner of "doing your dailies" for 6mos (i.e. TOR) then I think they've lost something.


Dynamis currency was a good idea, but the drop rate coupled with the amount of people's backs you got your weapon on made it a bad experience. My viewpoint might be different if it wasn't so monotonous and tedious. By comparison, most empyrean weapons are better than their relic counterparts and they take a fraction of the time to acquire. If not for SE easing up on this game a bit with abyssea, we'd all be considering DNR.

AchtheMonk wrote:
If that same poll were taken here is what I'd say to those people:

1. Level your own bard or find something else in that variety to do.
2. Find a different group, because the people in your group obviously aren't committed to winning, they're just committed to themselves. (Another function of social skills being necessary in an MMO)
3. Level a ninja and a Paladin. Some missions require a meat shield others require a blink tank, still others require a trio of DDs. That's another brilliant point of XI and frankly another brilliant point of the job system inherent in FF games. TOR and WoW both don't have that.


1) You missed my point. People don't want to be forced to play something they're not interested in. The line between allowing variety and making jobs carbon copies of one another isn't that fine and they could have done a better job there. I do partially blame the community for playing with blinders, but I can't say they weren't nudged in that direction because of how long the level grind used to be.

2) People don't want to be forced to play something over, and over, and over. Repetition gets boring. At least spice it up a little with the encounters or add/adjust abilities. Give healers a few nice abilities to supplement their damage capability. Give tanks support abilities to take some of the pressure off of the healers. Mix it up a bit is all I'm sayin.

/breaks out the flame-retardant suit

3) WoW pretty much spanks XI in encounter design, gimmicks included. When you have a development team that actually thinks about the classes, their abilities, their strengths and weaknesses and makes frequent adjustments and additions you tend to do a better job with creating challenging content. They have made boss encounters viable for all of their tank types that all have different playstyles. There will always be an ideal group composition for anything in any game, but I don't recall ever being turned away from an encounter in WoW because we lacked specific classes.

XI on the other hand made ninja a viable tank by accident. It could have been brilliant if they had adjusted content for it, but they didn't implement it well. Subsequently, everyone went with ninjas. People who were still allowed to go paladin were forced to go /nin giving up key abilities necessary for holding aggro. Those things happen when you design content thinking that people will be able to completely avoid most single target attacks.
____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
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