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FINAL FANTASY XIV Players’ Poll the Third (03/12/2012)Follow

#1 Mar 12 2012 at 5:19 AM Rating: Excellent
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The third edition of the FINAL FANTASY XIV Players’ Poll has begun! Be sure to take advantage of this opportunity to make your voice heard as we continue moving towards Version 2.0. Your cooperation is greatly appreciated, and will help us to bring you a better FINAL FANTASY XIV.

Take part in the poll.

* The poll is scheduled to conclude at 1:00 a.m. on Monday, March 26, 2012 (PDT).
#2 Mar 12 2012 at 5:25 AM Rating: Excellent
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We would like to take this opportunity to thank you all for playing FINAL FANTASY XIV. This is set to be a monumental year, as we draw ever closer to the relaunch of the game with version 2.0. As we continue to carry out updates while working our way towards 2.0, we would also like to conduct polls such as this to learn more about your styles of play, thoughts on 2.0, and more, in the hopes that we can then reflect that knowledge in both the game's operation and development.

We would greatly appreciate it if you could help us make FINAL FANTASY XIV a better game by taking the time to complete this Players' Poll. The deadline for poll submissions is 2/27/2012 0:00 a.m. PDT. Please be advised that not all poll results may be implemented in the game. Thank you very much for your cooperation and understanding.

http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com/pl/index.html

* Required

==General Gameplay==
Q1. Which disciplines do you employ most frequently? *
A. Discipline of War/Magic classes only
B. Discipline of the Land classes only
C. Discipline of the Hand classes only
D. Discipline of War/Magic & Discipline of the Land classes
E. Discipline of War/Magic & Discipline of the Hand classes
F. Discipline of the Land & Discipline of the Hand classes
G. I play all the classes!


Q2. How often do you play FINAL FANTASY XIV? *
A. About 1–2 hours per day.
B. About 2–4 hours per day.
C. Over 4 hours per day.
D. About once every 2–3 days.
E. About once every 3–5 days.
F. About once per week.
G. Only right after new patches are released.


Q3. Do you think the pace of leveling up Disciplines of War and Magic classes is appropriate? (When not power leveling, mind you.) *
A. I think it's just about right.
B. I think it's too fast.
C. I think it's too slow.
D. I think something other than the above three options.


Q4. If you selected the fourth option to Q3 above, "something other," please elaborate. (500 characters or less)


Q5. What do you like most about the current version of FINAL FANTASY XIV? (Multiple answers allowed) *
A. The quality of characters
B. The world, lore, etc
C. The story
D. Battle System
E. Synthesis
F. Gathering
G. Battle
H. Grand Companies
I. Linkshell communities
J. The promise of version 2.0
K. Other stuff


Q6. What would you like to see added to the game? (Up to 2 answers allowed) *
A. Battle content (primal fights, instanced raids, etc.)
B. Disciple of the Hand content (including improvements to the current synthesis system)
C. Disciple of the Land content (including improvements to the current gathering system)
D. Improvements to the user interface
E. Additions to the main scenario
F. Additional quests


==Battle System and Combat Classes==
Q1. What type of jobs/classes would you most like to see added? (Up to 2 answers allowed) *
A. An assassin-type class that uses lethal and stealthy attacks. (ex. Ninja, Thief, etc.)
B. One that controls and fights alongside a pet or avatar. (ex. Summoner, Puppetmaster, etc.)
C. A new type of magic-user that uses enfeebling magic and close-range attacks. (ex. Red Mage, etc.)
D. A new type of fighter that uses enfeebling attacks and inflicts special damage. (ex. Dark Knight, etc.)
E. An original class unlike any of those described above. (ex. Musketeer, Arithmetician, etc.)


Q2. What do you think about the combo system that was released in version 1.20? *
A. It's great.
B. It's good.
C. I'm looking forward to new actions and combos (including job actions).
D. Meh, it could be better.
E. It's terrible.


Q3. If you selected the fourth or fifth option to Q2 above, please elaborate. (500 characters or less)


==Synthesis==
Q1. Do you have a Discipline of the Hand class at level 40 or higher? *
A. Yes.
B. No.
C. I have no interest in synthesis.


Q2. What bothers you most about the current synthesis system? (Up to 3 answers allowed) *
A. The process is complicated and too much of a hassle.
B. The process is too difficult to understand.
C. Synthesis abilities don't seem to have much impact.
D. Recipes are complicated and too much of a hassle.
E. There aren't enough recipes.
F. It's too hard to level up.
G. I want to make more powerful items.
H. I want to make items exclusive to Disciples of the Hand.
I. I want to make items exclusive to Disciples of the Land.
J. There isn't enough game content for Disciples of the Hand.


Q3. Right now, only the class used to craft an item can repair that item. What do you think of this? *
A. I think it's fine as is.
B. I think any crafting class should be able to repair anything.


Q4. Right now, only the class used to craft an item can affix materia to it. What do you think of this? *
A. I think it's fine as is.
B. I think any crafting class should be able to affix materia to anything.


==Gathering==
Q1. Do you have a Discipline of the Land class at level 40 or higher? *
A. Yes.
B. No.
C. I have no interest in gathering.


Q2. What bothers you most about the current gathering system? (Up to 3 answers allowed) *
A. The process is complicated and too much of a hassle.
B. The process is too difficult to understand.
C. Gathering abilities don't seem to have much impact.
D. There aren't enough materials to gather.
E. There aren't enough gathering locations.
F. I don't have enough time to gather.
G. It's too hard to level up.
H. Enemies cause too much trouble, even when using Stealth.
I. There isn't enough game content for Disciples of the Land.


==The Lodestone and Official Forums==
Q1. Do you read player blogs on the Lodestone? *
A. Every day.
B. Sometimes.
C. Never.


Q2. Do you keep a blog on the Lodestone? *
A. Yes, I often make posts.
B. Yes, but I rarely make posts.
C. No, I stopped posting.
No, I never felt compelled to.


Q3. Do you view the official forums? *
A. Every day.
B. Sometimes.
C. Never.


Q4. Do you post on the official forums? *
A. Yes, often.
B. Yes, but only rarely.
C. No, never.


Q5. Please share with us your opinions of the Lodestone and the official forums. (500 characters or less)


==Relaunch (Version 2.0)==
Q1. What are your greatest expectations for the game's relaunch with version 2.0? (Up to 3 answers allowed) *
A. The new graphics engine.
B. New maps and level design.
C. The new user interface.
D. Systems of communication such as mail and in-game post.
E. Community systems such as Free Companies and linkshells.
F. The housing system.
G. New dungeons and battle content.
H. Large-scale battle content.
I. Continuation of the main scenario.
J. New quests.
K. New classes and jobs.
L. PvP content.


Q2. What type of race or clan would you most like to see added in the future? *
A. Reptilian beastmen (ex. lizardmen, draconians, etc.)
B. Mammalian beastmen (ex. wolfmen, gnolls, etc.)
C. Reptilian demi-beastmen (ex. a race with demonic features such as horns, etc.)
D. Mammalian demi-beastmen (ex. a rabbit-eared race such as the Viera from FFXII, etc.)
E. More clans for existing races (ex. greater variation in physical build and appearance)
F. Races of mixed heritage (ex. Elezen-Hyur, Mi’qote-Lalafell, etc.)


Q3. Please share with us your opinions of the current version of FINAL FANTASY XIV and version 2.0. (500 characters or less)




Edited, Mar 13th 2012 9:26am by kainsilv
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#3 Mar 12 2012 at 6:11 AM Rating: Excellent
Keep getting an unknown error on this - anyone else having this problem?
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#4 Mar 12 2012 at 6:41 AM Rating: Good
46 posts
This concludes FINAL FANTASY XIV Players' Poll Second-The Battle System.
Thank you for your cooperation.


Isn't it the third?
#5 Mar 12 2012 at 7:02 AM Rating: Good
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116 posts
AdvancedWind wrote:
This concludes FINAL FANTASY XIV Players' Poll Second-The Battle System.
Thank you for your cooperation.


Isn't it the third?

So glad I'm not the only one that noticed that Smiley: laugh
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#6 Mar 12 2012 at 8:14 AM Rating: Decent
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Same, it either gives a non descriptive error or it says wrong region.
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BLU75 AF2[3/5] DRK75 AF2[5/5] PLD75 AF2[4/5]
MNK75 AF2[4/5] PUP75 AF2[5/5] DRG75 AF2[1/5]
BLM75 AF2[0/5] BRD75 AF2[3/5] SAM75 AF2[2/5]
RNG75 AF2[2/5] COR75 AF2[5/5] WAR75 AF2[0/5]
[12/15 Maat's cap] ZM/CoP/ToAU/Windurst- Done// Runic key:O
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#7 Mar 12 2012 at 11:24 AM Rating: Good
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Validai wrote:
AdvancedWind wrote:
This concludes FINAL FANTASY XIV Players' Poll Second-The Battle System.
Thank you for your cooperation.


Isn't it the third?

So glad I'm not the only one that noticed that Smiley: laugh


Quote:
The deadline for poll submissions is 2/27/2012


Feb 27th? I guess we missed the deadline as well....
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#8 Mar 12 2012 at 11:46 AM Rating: Default
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I dislike using my game token for Lodestone so I guess i'm out.
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#9 Mar 12 2012 at 12:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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Warmech wrote:
I dislike using my game token for Lodestone so I guess i'm out.


You use it to log into the game... what's the difference? I don't like it, but guess what... it's not a deal breaker. Surely you have input to add to the poll, you grump from time to time here... might as well make your issues known and pressing a button and typing 6 numbers adds like 3 sec max to the process... petty.
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#10 Mar 12 2012 at 12:45 PM Rating: Good
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Warmech wrote:
I dislike using my game token for Lodestone so I guess i'm out.



Wow..I thought I was lazy...
#11 Mar 12 2012 at 1:53 PM Rating: Decent
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kainsilv wrote:
Q3. Do you think the pace of leveling up Disciplines of War and Magic classes is appropriate? (When not power leveling, mind you.) *
A. I think it's just about right.
B. I think it's too fast.
C. I think it's too slow.
D. I think something other than the above three options.


Q4. If you selected the fourth option to Q3 above, "something other," please elaborate. (500 characters or less)


I'll answer this here:

In FF13, you're thrust into events beyond your control and into an adventure of survival. You don't really care what "level" you are, just that you are prepared for the immediate challenges you face. After defeating the final boss you enter into "endgame" and continue to improve your characters and challenge even greater foes. I think FF14 should ideally start off this way. But if it can't, then take me to the "adventure" part as soon as possible. Grinding doesn't substitute for storytelling.
#12 Mar 12 2012 at 2:13 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Q1. What are your greatest expectations for the game's relaunch with version 2.0? (Up to 3 answers allowed)
*
The new graphics engine.
New maps and level design.
The new user interface.
Systems of communication such as mail and in-game post.
Community systems such as Free Companies and linkshells.
The housing system.
New dungeons and battle content.
Large-scale battle content.
Continuation of the main scenario.
New quests.
New classes and jobs.
PvP content.


This was an interesting question. Can give you a good idea where their priorities are for the release of 2.0.
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#13 Mar 12 2012 at 2:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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Xoie wrote:
In FF13, you're thrust into events beyond your control and into an adventure of survival. You don't really care what "level" you are, just that you are prepared for the immediate challenges you face. After defeating the final boss you enter into "endgame" and continue to improve your characters and challenge even greater foes. I think FF14 should ideally start off this way. But if it can't, then take me to the "adventure" part as soon as possible. Grinding doesn't substitute for storytelling.


I personally don't enjoy games that delay the bulk of character progression to endgame, but to each their own. To me, FF13 was atrocious in that it felt trapped, as if progression was forced down a specific path until the bulk of the game content was past.

This also seems to be the current MMORPG trend, treat leveling as almost an inconvenience, blow the player past it at breakneck speeds and focus the entirety of character progression on gear acquisition grinds at level cap. There's not a single MMORPG that subscribes to that methodology I find enjoyable to play.

Regardless, I think we can both agree that a sense of adventuring is paramount. I would simply argue that leveling can and should be part of that adventure not just a mind-numbing grind, be that too easy as to not seem to matter or too much so as to become a chore. Nobody wants to spend four hours a day grouped up only to get 1/4 of a level, repeating for the next 50 levels with no significant accomplishments prior, yet at the same time if one can spend a weekend rightclicking NPCs, killing 15 Wild Boars, watching movies on one monitor while "playing" an MMORPG on the other and get to level cap before Monday why even bother with levels? Just start everyone out at max level and point them to the nearest dungeon.


Edited, Mar 12th 2012 4:17pm by Whales
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#14 Mar 12 2012 at 2:17 PM Rating: Default
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And you don't need to be a current subscriber to do the poll!

Sometimes, it's good to be wrong :)
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#15 Mar 12 2012 at 2:27 PM Rating: Decent
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Whales wrote:
Xoie wrote:
In FF13, you're thrust into events beyond your control and into an adventure of survival. You don't really care what "level" you are, just that you are prepared for the immediate challenges you face. After defeating the final boss you enter into "endgame" and continue to improve your characters and challenge even greater foes. I think FF14 should ideally start off this way. But if it can't, then take me to the "adventure" part as soon as possible. Grinding doesn't substitute for storytelling.


I personally don't enjoy games that delay the bulk of character progression to endgame, but to each their own.


Since I limited myself to 500 characters (in the spirit of the question) there was bound to be some misunderstandings. Allow to me to clarify. I'm not asking for delayed character progression. I'm not asking for an FF13 remake, either.

What I'm saying is that character progression should be paced as a natural part of the story you're involved with, a story that should reach an epic conclusion that tests everything you've learned. And once you've got that out of the way, "Hey I'm level 50! How did that happen? I guess I'll join an endgame linkshell now." I don't see why there needs to be a "grind" at all. Surely, fighting some mobs along the way ought to be a part of a game spent mostly fighting things, but it should be paced along a story and quests that keep you engaged so that you hardly even notice there's a grind at all.

I only mentioned FF13 because it has that "endgame" moment when your story is done and you can continue to test your limits. To me, that's really what endgame should be, not when the game "starts" but the when the game "ends." But even then, it's not an ending, but a "waiting room" for when the next adventure starts with the newest expansion.

Edited, Mar 12th 2012 4:31pm by Xoie
#16 Mar 12 2012 at 2:34 PM Rating: Good
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Xoie wrote:
Since I limited myself to 500 characters (in the spirit of the question) there was bound to be some misunderstandings. Allow to me to clarify. I'm not asking for delayed character progression. I'm not asking for an FF13 remake, either.

What I'm saying is that character progression should be paced as a natural part of the story you're involved with, a story that should reach an epic conclusion that tests everything you've learned. And once you've got that out of the way, "Hey I'm level 50! How did that happen? I guess I'll join an endgame linkshell now." I don't see why there needs to a "grind" at all. Surely, fighting some mobs along the way ought to be a part of a game spent mostly fighting things, but it should be paced along a story and quests that keep you engaged so that you hardly even notice there's a grind at all.

I only mentioned FF13 because it has that "endgame" moment when your story is done and you can continue to test your limits. To me, that's really what endgame should be, not when the game "starts" but the when the game "ends." But even then, it's not an ending, but a "waiting room" for when the next adventure starts with the newest expansion.


Ah, I understand. Thank you.

I actually really like what you said here because it sums up what we have in FFXIV perfectly and why "slower" leveling here may not work without more changes, simply because everything now is setup for a mad dash to 50 with little content in between:

Xoie wrote:
I'm fine with slower leveling as long as there's something meaningful to do at those levels.

The problem is one of content. If there were story arcs and quests and missions and content vital to my becoming the best level 50 player I can be that I would be remiss in skipping over, then by all means, slow me down so I don't miss it.

But all I see is an empty pocket of meaninglessness between 1 and 50 where I can't even get a decent set of gear. Maybe the job system is a step in changing that, but it's not much to work with right now. A grind just for the sake of a grind is pretty much the dullest thing you can have in an MMO. Give me a reason to fight!
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#17 Mar 12 2012 at 2:43 PM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
What I'm saying is that character progression should be paced as a natural part of the story you're involved with, a story that should reach an epic conclusion that tests everything you've learned. And once you've got that out of the way, "Hey I'm level 50! How did that happen? I guess I'll join an endgame linkshell now." I don't see why there needs to a "grind" at all.


To play devil's advocate...

What do you do then when you want to level a second job, or a third job, or a fourth job, and you've already done the story that's meant to monorail you up to max level?

Seems to me that grinding (either by exp camping or repetitive questing) is an unavoidable part of MMOs. I think the options should exist for players to do either alongside of a story that's basically good to carry you to max level on one job.
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#18 Mar 12 2012 at 3:39 PM Rating: Decent
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Oh wow! It's true! I was able to participate in the poll although I have no active subscription! This deserves special mentioning!
#19 Mar 12 2012 at 3:47 PM Rating: Good
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It's my last month playing till the main story progress more my two cents will make no difference.I always judged FF14 by ZAM comments not Loadstones ,the negativity will come out no matter what SE chooses.
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#20 Mar 12 2012 at 4:09 PM Rating: Decent
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Thayos wrote:
Quote:
What I'm saying is that character progression should be paced as a natural part of the story you're involved with, a story that should reach an epic conclusion that tests everything you've learned. And once you've got that out of the way, "Hey I'm level 50! How did that happen? I guess I'll join an endgame linkshell now." I don't see why there needs to a "grind" at all.


To play devil's advocate...

What do you do then when you want to level a second job, or a third job, or a fourth job, and you've already done the story that's meant to monorail you up to max level?

Seems to me that grinding (either by exp camping or repetitive questing) is an unavoidable part of MMOs. I think the options should exist for players to do either alongside of a story that's basically good to carry you to max level on one job.


The issue in Final Fantasy XI was that all leveling was straight grinding (even during the first job) which doesn't compare to most current MMOs. Final Fantasy XIV continued this trend, though they did try to lessen it. The problem that SE seems to have is that they are unable to follow a similar design to other popular MMOs (quest hub to hub), either because they don't like it or...think they can do better (which they haven't shown the ability to do). While other MMOs don't have to deal with players being in the same area multiple times (once you finish a quest hub, you leave and never go back), that doesn't really give SE a good reason to say "welp, you're gonna have to grind lizarddodobrynraptorcrabs for the rest of your jobs".

Without putting much thought into it: follow the fairly standard "quest hub to quest hub", where the players are guided from location to location via quest chains and the main story, but with the typical SE production values (more like the Star Onion Brigade than MMOX's list of text). Once a player completes a certain number of quests in an area (reaches a certain level, whatever), allow the player to party on another class with someone going through the area for the first time and gain XP on quests they've already done (in other words, make the quests repeatable if you're partying with someone) and unlock second "tier" quests that are repeatable for every job that goes through the area. Add some harder quests in that give "tokens" that can be traded in through the guilds for items and equipment. Bam, you've got a leveling path for new players, a reason for old players to help new players, a way (and incentives) for old players to level new classes through areas (and to party up while doing it), and mid-tier content that prepares people for endgame.

Obviously not flawless, but you're telling me that a team of people working full-time can't come up with something that makes the leveling process less tedious?
#21 Mar 12 2012 at 6:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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Thayos wrote:
Quote:
What I'm saying is that character progression should be paced as a natural part of the story you're involved with, a story that should reach an epic conclusion that tests everything you've learned. And once you've got that out of the way, "Hey I'm level 50! How did that happen? I guess I'll join an endgame linkshell now." I don't see why there needs to a "grind" at all.


To play devil's advocate...

What do you do then when you want to level a second job, or a third job, or a fourth job, and you've already done the story that's meant to monorail you up to max level?

Seems to me that grinding (either by exp camping or repetitive questing) is an unavoidable part of MMOs. I think the options should exist for players to do either alongside of a story that's basically good to carry you to max level on one job.


I don't think my line of thinking is popular here, but I'll give you my thoughts.

There are 7 battle classes, there should be seven stories. There can be some overlap between quests and communal efforts such as Grand Companies, but I would have gone with 7 unique storylines underpinning the progression, much like you would see with FFXI's AF quests only extended to cover the whole progression, each with their own characters and concerns within the context of the upcoming struggle with the Garlean Empire. I might go with differing starting branches depending on your starting town, but then I'd encourage you into pursuing your career in whatever town your class guild resides in to continue your training there.

It ought to culminate to the equivalent of a Maat fight only more of an epic final battle sort of thing, in the level 45-49 range where if you want to get to 50, you have to prove you can play the class properly using all the skills it has available. That way, any endgame linkshell will be confident you've proven you know what you're doing in your endgame class.

So if and when you want to level other classes, you have new stories to carry you along. You're never faced with a boring grind you have to get over with or powerlevel through. There's something to experience every step of the way. If it takes three months to get through, if I'm having a good time, I don't care. I'm just in it for an adventure, not something I'm going to sleep through.
#22 Mar 12 2012 at 6:40 PM Rating: Good
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Tidane wrote:
follow the fairly standard "quest hub to quest hub", where the players are guided from location to location via quest chains and the main story, but with the typical SE production values (more like the Star Onion Brigade than MMOX's list of text).


If anything, moving from hub to hub is worse than grinding, as it not only creates a paper-thin world that exists solely to move you through tedious walls of text (known today as "quests"), but it also shrinks the world with every level you gain, eliminating any reason to revisit or explore past zones. In games like that, even farming is less efficient in lower level areas! By the end, you're left with a handful of translucent endgame grinds in a small number of zones, manufactured for a few clear purposes, but whose greatest purpose above all is, at that point, to motivate you to remake a character so you can go through the old things again. Such a situation is not ideal by any means.
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#23 Mar 12 2012 at 6:57 PM Rating: Decent
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Xoie wrote:
Thayos wrote:
Quote:
What I'm saying is that character progression should be paced as a natural part of the story you're involved with, a story that should reach an epic conclusion that tests everything you've learned. And once you've got that out of the way, "Hey I'm level 50! How did that happen? I guess I'll join an endgame linkshell now." I don't see why there needs to a "grind" at all.


To play devil's advocate...

What do you do then when you want to level a second job, or a third job, or a fourth job, and you've already done the story that's meant to monorail you up to max level?

Seems to me that grinding (either by exp camping or repetitive questing) is an unavoidable part of MMOs. I think the options should exist for players to do either alongside of a story that's basically good to carry you to max level on one job.


I don't think my line of thinking is popular here, but I'll give you my thoughts.

There are 7 battle classes, there should be seven stories. There can be some overlap between quests and communal efforts such as Grand Companies, but I would have gone with 7 unique storylines underpinning the progression, much like you would see with FFXI's AF quests only extended to cover the whole progression, each with their own characters and concerns within the context of the upcoming struggle with the Garlean Empire. I might go with differing starting branches depending on your starting town, but then I'd encourage you into pursuing your career in whatever town your class guild resides in to continue your training there.

It ought to culminate to the equivalent of a Maat fight only more of an epic final battle sort of thing, in the level 45-49 range where if you want to get to 50, you have to prove you can play the class properly using all the skills it has available. That way, any endgame linkshell will be confident you've proven you know what you're doing in your endgame class.

So if and when you want to level other classes, you have new stories to carry you along. You're never faced with a boring grind you have to get over with or powerlevel through. There's something to experience every step of the way. If it takes three months to get through, if I'm having a good time, I don't care. I'm just in it for an adventure, not something I'm going to sleep through.


Dude once again you have put in words what I have been thinking lol. I won't go into a wall of text, but I think adding "content" for each job to progress through would be a bit better than traditional "camp & grind". I wouldn't necessarily get rid of camp/grind altogether, but maybe just enough for a player to test/practice his or her new abilities as they acquire them.



Edited, Mar 12th 2012 8:58pm by jayfly
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#24 Mar 12 2012 at 6:58 PM Rating: Decent
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Tidane wrote:
Without putting much thought into it: follow the fairly standard "quest hub to quest hub", where the players are guided from location to location via quest chains and the main story, but with the typical SE production values (more like the Star Onion Brigade than MMOX's list of text). Once a player completes a certain number of quests in an area (reaches a certain level, whatever), allow the player to party on another class with someone going through the area for the first time and gain XP on quests they've already done (in other words, make the quests repeatable if you're partying with someone) and unlock second "tier" quests that are repeatable for every job that goes through the area. Add some harder quests in that give "tokens" that can be traded in through the guilds for items and equipment. Bam, you've got a leveling path for new players, a reason for old players to help new players, a way (and incentives) for old players to level new classes through areas (and to party up while doing it), and mid-tier content that prepares people for endgame.


Quest hub-to-hub leveling would kill any shred of spirit this game had left. It's the exact opposite of their vision for this game. I don't like the grinding for this game, but I believe that they can pull it off on redesign without resorting to such cheap tricks.
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#25 Mar 12 2012 at 8:08 PM Rating: Excellent
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There are 7 battle classes, there should be seven stories. There can be some overlap between quests and communal efforts such as Grand Companies, but I would have gone with 7 unique storylines underpinning the progression, much like you would see with FFXI's AF quests only extended to cover the whole progression, each with their own characters and concerns within the context of the upcoming struggle with the Garlean Empire. I might go with differing starting branches depending on your starting town, but then I'd encourage you into pursuing your career in whatever town your class guild resides in to continue your training there.


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#26 Mar 12 2012 at 8:54 PM Rating: Good
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KaneKitty wrote:
If anything, moving from hub to hub is worse than grinding, as it not only creates a paper-thin world that exists solely to move you through tedious walls of text (known today as "quests"), but it also shrinks the world with every level you gain, eliminating any reason to revisit or explore past zones.
So your position is that creating content that gives players a reason to return to an area (with a second class) is eliminating any reason to revisit or explore past zones, simply because it was presented as a groups or series of quests that gave the player direction the first time s/he was there? Hub-based questing does not mean that you are forbidden to return to an area (and, as I said in the original post, it is actually encouraged). Hub-based questing does not mean that you do every quest your first time through the game (The Lord of the Rings Online does a decent job of having several different questing locations per level, so you could theoretically play two characters to level 50 and spend almost no time in the same areas, ignoring storyline quests).

KaneKitty wrote:
In games like that, even farming is less efficient in lower level areas!
While you may think farming low level mobs should be more efficient than higher level mobs, I, personally, don't view that as a good game mechanic. In my eyes, clearing out zones of low level mobs for money or items should be replaced by doing quests, impacting the world, and learning the history. "Farming" mobs is not a real reason to be in a zone. I would much rather see Seige/Behest style events as a reason for returning to areas; random events that are story-based and have real benefits to do. Defending and attacking outposts, stealth-based infiltration missions, etc. Things that may involve the rewards of mindlessly farming mobs without simply saying "yeah, you need to grind these for hours to buy those Leaping Boots".

KaneKitty wrote:
By the end, you're left with a handful of translucent endgame grinds in a small number of zones, manufactured for a few clear purposes, but whose greatest purpose above all is, at that point, to motivate you to remake a character so you can go through the old things again. Such a situation is not ideal by any means.
As opposed to right now, where you're left with...a handful of translucent endgame grinds in a small number of zones, manufactured for a few clear purposes, but whose greatest purpose above all is, at that point, to motivate you to keep paying for their game?

Look, there's always going to be a limit to the number of things that a player can do at endgame, until someone comes up with a way to make enjoyable and rewarding procedurally generated content. Until that day, the best thing SE can do is not only make their dungeon/raid content rewarding and enjoyable, but also give players a good reason to take their other classes (or maxed classes, via level sync...) back through areas they've already been through. Just because a dungeon/raid has a level 20 cap doesn't mean that the content within it can't be varied and challenging enough for players to want to do. There are some games out there that have level 20 content that scales to the cap, which makes the experience completely different at level 50 than it was at level 20.

No matter what, some players are going to burn their way to endgame. With the way the game is now, people who don't do that are being punished, because there really is nothing to do but grind to a higher level.

BlynkTheSneak wrote:
Quest hub-to-hub leveling would kill any shred of spirit this game had left. It's the exact opposite of their vision for this game. I don't like the grinding for this game, but I believe that they can pull it off on redesign without resorting to such cheap tricks.
Removing tedium is not a cheap trick. Giving players direction is not a cheap trick. As I said above, just because the game has hub-based questing does not inherently mean that it is a completely linear experience that removes the soul of a game. SE could have created hub-based questing that not only enabled players to move through and explore the world, but also gave them a way to progress to the next part of the world without being required to mindlessly kill the same mobs over and over.

One of the biggest problems I cited with Final Fantasy XIV at launch was that the design philosophy seemed to be "let's take the wheel, make it out of cheese, and for good measure, turn it into a triangle". Turning it into cheese isn't completely horrid (maybe it was an extremely special cheese that didn't wear out or wear the road), but most people could tell you that the whole triangle wheel thing wasn't going to work. SE focused too much on trying to do everything differently than they did on trying to do everything well. Just because some other MMO has X-style interface or Y-style questing doesn't that taking the idea and improving on it is a bad thing. SE seemed reluctant to even take and improve upon things from Final Fantasy XI. There are numerous features from FFXI that could have been in the initial design for XIV and improved over their previous version...yet were completely lacking from XIV at release. I'm not saying that Final Fantasy XIV should be a clone of Final Fantasy XI or any other MMO (that would, infact, be horrid). Using the experience of others to create an improved featureset is much better than chaining together a bunch of questionable ideas and releasing that as your product.
#27 Mar 13 2012 at 7:31 AM Rating: Good
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SE wrote:
==Battle System and Combat Classes==

Q1. What type of jobs/classes would you most like to see added? (Up to 2 answers allowed) *
A. An assassin-type class that uses lethal and stealthy attacks. (ex. Ninja, Thief, etc.)
B. One that controls and fights alongside a pet or avatar. (ex. Summoner, Puppetmaster, etc.)
C. A new type of magic-user that uses enfeebling magic and close-range attacks. (ex. Red Mage, etc.)
D. A new type of fighter that uses enfeebling attacks and inflicts special damage. (ex. Dark Knight, etc.)
E. An original class unlike any of those described above. (ex. Musketeer, Arithmetician, etc.)


I think SE needs to be very selective here. Whatever classes/jobs they introduce next they will have thousands of players who are capped wanting to level them all at the same time. It better be a good selection with a broad range of abilities or we are going to run into some real problems. I also think Level Sync is badly needed if this is going to work. Maybe the addition of the PS3 players willl be enough but somehow I don't think it will.

Edit: I don't really have a good feel for how Yoshi's cross-server raiding/grouping will work. This with any servers that might need added might help balance the load slightly. Just some after thoughts.

Edited, Mar 13th 2012 9:52am by kainsilv
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#28 Mar 13 2012 at 8:02 AM Rating: Good
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Xoie wrote:
Thayos wrote:
Quote:
What I'm saying is that character progression should be paced as a natural part of the story you're involved with, a story that should reach an epic conclusion that tests everything you've learned. And once you've got that out of the way, "Hey I'm level 50! How did that happen? I guess I'll join an endgame linkshell now." I don't see why there needs to a "grind" at all.


To play devil's advocate...

What do you do then when you want to level a second job, or a third job, or a fourth job, and you've already done the story that's meant to monorail you up to max level?

Seems to me that grinding (either by exp camping or repetitive questing) is an unavoidable part of MMOs. I think the options should exist for players to do either alongside of a story that's basically good to carry you to max level on one job.


I don't think my line of thinking is popular here, but I'll give you my thoughts.

There are 7 battle classes, there should be seven stories. There can be some overlap between quests and communal efforts such as Grand Companies, but I would have gone with 7 unique storylines underpinning the progression, much like you would see with FFXI's AF quests only extended to cover the whole progression, each with their own characters and concerns within the context of the upcoming struggle with the Garlean Empire. I might go with differing starting branches depending on your starting town, but then I'd encourage you into pursuing your career in whatever town your class guild resides in to continue your training there.

It ought to culminate to the equivalent of a Maat fight only more of an epic final battle sort of thing, in the level 45-49 range where if you want to get to 50, you have to prove you can play the class properly using all the skills it has available. That way, any endgame linkshell will be confident you've proven you know what you're doing in your endgame class.

So if and when you want to level other classes, you have new stories to carry you along. You're never faced with a boring grind you have to get over with or powerlevel through. There's something to experience every step of the way. If it takes three months to get through, if I'm having a good time, I don't care. I'm just in it for an adventure, not something I'm going to sleep through.



I agree, however I feel that if they do this they should go all the way, it should really be like a single player game. Not in the sense that I have to do it alone because that is the opposite of what an MMO is, but the part where I progress in levels by doing the storyline. I shouldn't have to grind sidequests alongside the main story in order to get enough levels to complete the story.

SWTOR is a game that for me is using this idea of having different stories for different classes, but for me they fell short in that sure I did have a main storyline, but for every main story quest I completed I had to do 5 non main storyline quests. So basically you got the same quest hub system you see in so many other games, albeit with a little more story. Had they actually went the whole mile and skipped the part where I had to grind other quests in order to progress enough I would have liked it a lot more. There should of course be optional sidequests like any good single player RPG, but I should never be forced to do them just to gain enough exp to kill the final boss of the storyline or w/e.
#29 Mar 13 2012 at 11:28 AM Rating: Decent
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124 posts
Tidane wrote:
BlynkTheSneak wrote:
Quest hub-to-hub leveling would kill any shred of spirit this game had left. It's the exact opposite of their vision for this game. I don't like the grinding for this game, but I believe that they can pull it off on redesign without resorting to such cheap tricks.


Removing tedium is not a cheap trick. Giving players direction is not a cheap trick. As I said above, just because the game has hub-based questing does not inherently mean that it is a completely linear experience that removes the soul of a game. SE could have created hub-based questing that not only enabled players to move through and explore the world, but also gave them a way to progress to the next part of the world without being required to mindlessly kill the same mobs over and over.


If I would attempt to put your system into play, it would probably be a lot like the current leve system.
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#30 Mar 21 2012 at 11:14 AM Rating: Excellent
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Belcrono wrote:
Xoie wrote:
Thayos wrote:
Quote:
What I'm saying is that character progression should be paced as a natural part of the story you're involved with, a story that should reach an epic conclusion that tests everything you've learned. And once you've got that out of the way, "Hey I'm level 50! How did that happen? I guess I'll join an endgame linkshell now." I don't see why there needs to a "grind" at all.


To play devil's advocate...

What do you do then when you want to level a second job, or a third job, or a fourth job, and you've already done the story that's meant to monorail you up to max level?

Seems to me that grinding (either by exp camping or repetitive questing) is an unavoidable part of MMOs. I think the options should exist for players to do either alongside of a story that's basically good to carry you to max level on one job.


I don't think my line of thinking is popular here, but I'll give you my thoughts.

There are 7 battle classes, there should be seven stories. There can be some overlap between quests and communal efforts such as Grand Companies, but I would have gone with 7 unique storylines underpinning the progression, much like you would see with FFXI's AF quests only extended to cover the whole progression, each with their own characters and concerns within the context of the upcoming struggle with the Garlean Empire. I might go with differing starting branches depending on your starting town, but then I'd encourage you into pursuing your career in whatever town your class guild resides in to continue your training there.

It ought to culminate to the equivalent of a Maat fight only more of an epic final battle sort of thing, in the level 45-49 range where if you want to get to 50, you have to prove you can play the class properly using all the skills it has available. That way, any endgame linkshell will be confident you've proven you know what you're doing in your endgame class.

So if and when you want to level other classes, you have new stories to carry you along. You're never faced with a boring grind you have to get over with or powerlevel through. There's something to experience every step of the way. If it takes three months to get through, if I'm having a good time, I don't care. I'm just in it for an adventure, not something I'm going to sleep through.



I agree, however I feel that if they do this they should go all the way, it should really be like a single player game. Not in the sense that I have to do it alone because that is the opposite of what an MMO is, but the part where I progress in levels by doing the storyline. I shouldn't have to grind sidequests alongside the main story in order to get enough levels to complete the story.

SWTOR is a game that for me is using this idea of having different stories for different classes, but for me they fell short in that sure I did have a main storyline, but for every main story quest I completed I had to do 5 non main storyline quests. So basically you got the same quest hub system you see in so many other games, albeit with a little more story. Had they actually went the whole mile and skipped the part where I had to grind other quests in order to progress enough I would have liked it a lot more. There should of course be optional sidequests like any good single player RPG, but I should never be forced to do them just to gain enough exp to kill the final boss of the storyline or w/e.


What do you want to play? That's the question really here... I for one am not interested at all in quick progression towards endgame without learning the meat of the background story for whatever area/guild/group etc I have to do quests for. For instance, all the starter area quests in San d'Oria in FFXI were very entertaining. Yes, most of them were silly fetch quests or click seven ??? points that are all over the starter area's to be able to get that new piece of equipment and enjoy cutscenes along the way. Let's take the orc scales quest for instance: I was interested in the dungeons so I went to Ranperre's Tomb, tried to get the drop and ended up at level 11 beating all the enemies in that area, and dodging the more dangerous ones, while exploring the area and finishing the quest. Was I grinding? Not really, I could've gotten the drop sooner, but seeing people run by, slaying the more dangerous mobs for you or give you a quick cure and interacting was a lot of fun. It was the adventure I was interested in, the whole experience.

Yes, I did grind my way to level 20, but then there were enough quests that send me everywhere literally (chocobo quest) to keep me busy. I hardly noticed the grind. It wasn't until level 40 or so that the leveling progress became a drag.... it took too long to reach the next quest tier so to say to keep me interested in leveling. I would have liked to have progressed a lot faster so I could level other jobs. 3 years of pretty hardcore (read average hardcore) leveling got me 3 jobs at level 75 and no interest in leveling any other jobs. So I would be happy if the grind was less of manditory and faster towards a new level if there aren't enough REAL quests with cutscenens to keep me busy.

What you are asking for is a single player experience in an MMO.... I do not want that at all, otherwise I would play an MMO where I could enjoy everything just by my own. The reason why I liked FFXI that it was very party based oriented. There should just be enough quests to keep you busy to keep you from getting bored from grinding too much. If Team Yoshida can manage to keep me entertained all the way, I would happily play this game. What I'm not looking for is another FFXI grind before the level sync period.

The way they did SWTOR is commendable, seperate storylines with a lot of story, for each class that could keep you entertained for a long, long time. I would like to see that implemented into FFXIV, but I'm afraid it just will take some time before SE can dish that out. Hence why I have no objection to wait a little longer till 2.0.

I'm very happy with the job update, it looks and sounds good and people can recognise other players that want to play a certain job in parties etc.... it makes it easy to form parties with the preferred job of the PC just by looking at their AF. If they keep dishing out new content like this for the coming three years, I will be very happy to play FFXIV the next three years on PS3 :) I hope the saturation point comes later then what it was with FFXI, but I do not have the time I had before anyway, so that shouldn't be a problem.
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#31 Mar 21 2012 at 12:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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I've played a lot of MMO's in my day and I recently started playing FFXIV again... my last time was during the Open Beta. As I'm only level 13, what I've seen so far is minimal but I enjoy the way the main storyline progresses every few levels. I also enjoy the little side quests I find from NPC's as I'm running around town. They at least have a whole story behind them which entertains me, unlike some games that will simply state, "Rabbits are invading the farm and eating the crops! Go kill 20 of them." Multiply that times 10-15 quests or so for the same area and I have a hard time staying awake to play the game.

The idea of hubs for quests is not a bad idea, but I just came from a game that has so many run here and fetch and kill 'x' number of things per quest hub that it's soured me on the idea altogether. The zones feel smaller because you're not just killing the big, bad enemy of the area... you're killing everything in the area at different times. Like... done killing rabbits, go kill giant dogs, done killing those, go kill some orcs that were right next to the giant dogs. There's a lot of back and forth in a small area, which is boring. The game becomes a snoozefest. Thinking of leveling more than one character with this kind of questing is painful. Doing the same quests with the same storyline just to see different classes becomes a boring task. In FFXIV, the story writers have at least attempted to make the side quests interesting to read (if you read them). They are essentially kill quests and go here and there but SE has done a better job than most other game companies in this regard in my opinion.

I agree with the poster above me that FFXI was compelling and interesting from the beginning with the varied quests, cutscenes and zone layouts. But like you said, around the 35-40 levels, it started to get tedious. I'm psyched that SE has made quests give exp to be honest, I played FFXI for 3 years as well and had to meet with my set party each night and camp mobs for 6-8 hours a night in order to level. That's the definition of tedious... even though I loved the game.

I like that there's a different storyline for each starting area and it makes me want to play 3 characters so I can experience them all. The idea that someone else had about different jobs having different storylines would be more than awesome but as SE has to work on fixing the game and such... they may not have time to add such content anytime soon. I love SE's storytelling abilities.

It would be nice if the zones were more interesting/breathtaking/awe-inspiring instead of just mazes to wind through but truthfully as a new player, I am enjoying the game and think that they've done a good job with the changes they've made. As long as they continue to add more content often to keep older players interested, the game should do well.

As for quest hubs, I personally hope they stay out of this game. They weren't in FFXI and they're not needed. I would rather "grind" with a group of friends than have 15-20 mind-numbingly boring go here and there and kill 'x' number of things quests in my journal at all times.

Just my two cents as a new FFXIV, veteran MMO player.

Edited, Mar 21st 2012 3:18pm by Kittkat26
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