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For the love of god, tell SE leveling is too fast!Follow

#1 Mar 12 2012 at 10:42 AM Rating: Default
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For all of us who think that the super fast leveling in FFXIV is part of what is ruining the game, now is our chance to really let them know. Head over to the lodestone and take the new poll!

Give us a slow leveling process that is actually fun and meaningful along the way and gives us a reason to make friends and form bonds and a community : )

https://secure.square-enix.com/enqt/e/FF14NPLAYERENQ03/html
#2 Mar 12 2012 at 2:07 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'm fine with slower leveling as long as there's something meaningful to do at those levels.

The problem is one of content. If there were story arcs and quests and missions and content vital to my becoming the best level 50 player I can be that I would be remiss in skipping over, then by all means, slow me down so I don't miss it.

But all I see is an empty pocket of meaninglessness between 1 and 50 where I can't even get a decent set of gear. Maybe the job system is a step in changing that, but it's not much to work with right now. A grind just for the sake of a grind is pretty much the dullest thing you can have in an MMO. Give me a reason to fight!
#3 Mar 12 2012 at 2:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'm fine with slower leveling as long as there's something meaningful to do at those levels.

I definitely agree with this statement. My philosophy for FFXI was, why would you slow down leveling when your main xp gain is from experience point parties. There's no reason to make the leveling process a more dreadful grind unless there are multiple mediums of obtaining xp.

Edited, Mar 12th 2012 4:35pm by Ariken
#4 Mar 12 2012 at 2:35 PM Rating: Good
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Xoie wrote:
I'm fine with slower leveling as long as there's something meaningful to do at those levels.

The problem is one of content. If there were story arcs and quests and missions and content vital to my becoming the best level 50 player I can be that I would be remiss in skipping over, then by all means, slow me down so I don't miss it.

But all I see is an empty pocket of meaninglessness between 1 and 50 where I can't even get a decent set of gear. Maybe the job system is a step in changing that, but it's not much to work with right now. A grind just for the sake of a grind is pretty much the dullest thing you can have in an MMO. Give me a reason to fight!


You my friend, hit the nail on the head. Rate up!

Edited, Mar 12th 2012 4:36pm by jayfly
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#5 Mar 12 2012 at 2:35 PM Rating: Excellent
I'm all for grinding, as long as the grinding is fun like it was in FFXI. A big reason why grinding in FFXI was fun was because the natural level progression took you through so many areas of Vana'diel. FFXIV is at a huge disadvantage in that regard because there are so few zones, and because the zones have such similar/same terrain. There's not that same feeling of taking a pilgrimage to endgame like there was in FFXI.

I say keep the gear hunting at endgame (why would people spend time grinding dungeons for mid-level gear anyway), but lengthen the journey to endgame and make it more epic. I get the feeling the first chance to really do that will be at Version 2.0, when the maps are all split up and redrawn.

Until then, eliminating power leveling and lengthening a boring grind is still more beneficial than leaving power leveling as it is. Power leveling as it stands is a complete joke.
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#6 Mar 12 2012 at 2:38 PM Rating: Decent
Leveling speed is fine for a game in which you are supposed to level all classes jobs to max.
Leveling speed is fine for a game where you need to also level crafts/gathering which are not quick to level at all.
Leveing speed is fine for a game which needs to attract as many new players as possible and keep them post 2.0.

Likely leveling speed to 50 will remain the same, after the cap is raised post 2.0 a steeper leveling curve 50 - cap would be a good idea, maybe.

The main reason for someone wanting more of a leveling grind is because they are bored of having nothing to do at endgame. Answer; play less, go outside, get a job, play another game as well, lots of options.
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#7 Mar 12 2012 at 2:41 PM Rating: Excellent
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My simple response would be that the rate at which you level is far less important than having fun doing the levels. If I am having fun partying, questing, etc... at level 10 who cares how fast I get to 50. Just make it interesting and challenging and I will stick around for a long time doesn't matter what level I am.
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#8 Mar 12 2012 at 2:53 PM Rating: Good
Thayos wrote:
I'm all for grinding, as long as the grinding is fun like it was in FFXI.


You are lucky you are an admin with a pointy sword....
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#9 Mar 12 2012 at 3:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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triplealphareaction wrote:
Thayos wrote:
I'm all for grinding, as long as the grinding is fun like it was in FFXI.


You are lucky you are an admin with a pointy sword....


Are those of us who enjoyed the leveling in FFXI (pre-abyssea) really in the minority? :(
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#10 Mar 12 2012 at 3:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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You are right... I shouldn't be blinded by the nostalgic sunshine and rainbows that can so easily cloud judgement.

Leveling in FFXI wasn't always fun... in fact, it got downright tedious at times, and those hours spent looking for parties really sucked. But a good MMO has to have some degree of progression in which the developer isn't leading you by the hand. That's why I think "fun" grinding that doesn't require huge groups is a very important asset in an MMO.
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#11 Mar 12 2012 at 3:11 PM Rating: Decent
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Leveling speed is fine for a game in which you are supposed to level all classes jobs to max.

I definitely don't want to do that. I'm quite happy with the new Job system and it's limited selection of "subjobs". At least now I will not have to level all those classes I don't like just to snatch one ability @46.
#12 Mar 12 2012 at 3:11 PM Rating: Good
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How about level capped content that is HARD. BCNM FFxi old Cop anyone? Less people would pl if there were events that required you to know how to effectively play your class at level 20, 30, 40 ect. Also a need for good low level gear BAM!

Experience points aren't just numbers on your screen, the real experience is the amount of TIME and challenging fights you have been through with your class/job.

Difficult content that makes you throw your controller at the wall and break it. Frustrating stuff, death penalty .... all gives you that long lost sense of accomplishment you used to have when playing these silly games.
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#13 Mar 12 2012 at 3:14 PM Rating: Good
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"Are those of us who enjoyed the leveling in FFXI (pre-abyssea) really in the minority?"

the majority of my friends from ff11 all agree with you also I enjoyed slower/more tactical combat in ff11 than int his game where everyone just spams any skills and wins. When i saw ff14 for the first time i thought they would improve on ff11 with pictures showing classes have range domination/etc, but unfortunately we have any class can spam any skill and win anyways.

from magic burst/pulling/tanking/healing skill chain i thought it was extremely fun as well, made people's class feel important and meaningful and a lot more strategic, in ff14 we have parties where you can invite anyone and its just roaming skill spam/AoE spam for the win.

Edited, Mar 12th 2012 5:16pm by KingAlkaiser
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#14 Mar 12 2012 at 3:19 PM Rating: Decent
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Yep. The whole "positioning will be important" and "classes will have different combat ranges" was, for the most part, just smoke and mirror.

And btw: I really, really think level-capped content was one of the most entertaining diversions from "endgame" there was in FFXI. Like a blast from the past when you took your fully merited uber-monk down to a ride through 'ye olde 30s. But I fear lots of people hated this. For reasons I don't understand.
#15 Mar 12 2012 at 3:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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triplealphareaction wrote:
The main reason for someone wanting more of a leveling grind is because they are bored of having nothing to do at endgame. Answer; play less, go outside, get a job, play another game as well, lots of options.


I don't have much time to play; I have many other responsibilities; but I like longer leveling because it feels more like I got through something trying and taxing and therefore have a reason to celebrate. If I can pop on and get a level every 20 or 30 minutes, I don't cheer because the game's so fast that I can max out my character while barely trying, I lament that there are no long-term goals to look towards - no reasons to keep me playing for years to come.

In FFXI, I got the ability to look back at the harrowing experiences in Valkurm Dunes and shudder, laugh, and wistfully reminisce; if there were a "dunes" of FFXIV, I wouldn't look back and have dozens of fond and worthwhile memories, I would look back and think, "I don't remember those low-level places; you can plow to 30 in a day."

I think it comes to whether one wants to play a game or play a world. I want an MMORPG in which I can immerse myself for half a decade, I don't want a little game on the side whose seams become all too visible if I spend more than a couple hours looking at it. In short, I may have a casual playtime, but I don't find value in tinkering around with a casual game. Journey, not destination; exploration and experimentation, not endgame grind.
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#16 Mar 13 2012 at 8:06 AM Rating: Decent
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A love a long journey(initial experience) on the first time through content. As time goes on and if content gets repeated multiple times, I begin to dread the next expanse of that journey. Anything you repeat with no variance becomes a chore or a grind. Therefore by definition I despise grind. I don't log on a game to complete chores. I log on to have fun and play with friends and experience new ventures. If I played mmorpgs solely as one character/one job. Then by all means make all that content as time consuming as possible. However, the SE brand of mmorpg is known for having copius amounts of jobs. Personally when playing an mmo with so many professions, one profession is not enough for me.

I think of leveling like a yearly looping road trip. If I eat at the same resturants, drive the same car, drive the same speed, shop at the same department stores, sleep in the same motel. The thrill of exploring wears off and going through the motions set in. FFXI had a good amount of shared vistas. But lacked somewhat in unique content per job. Unique content is what I yearn for most. I don't care if it's an mmo and repetition is the norm. A game doesn't get a free pass from me.

TLDR: The leveling pace is fine as of now if the powerleveling option was stripped away. The time taken to reach cap, matters not to me. If there are plenty of unique contents or spontaneous locales or experiences. When SE can deliver some more roadblocks. Then I wouldn't mind them lowering the leveling pace.
#17 Mar 13 2012 at 8:23 AM Rating: Default
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KaneKitty wrote:
triplealphareaction wrote:
The main reason for someone wanting more of a leveling grind is because they are bored of having nothing to do at endgame. Answer; play less, go outside, get a job, play another game as well, lots of options.


I don't have much time to play; I have many other responsibilities; but I like longer leveling because it feels more like I got through something trying and taxing and therefore have a reason to celebrate. If I can pop on and get a level every 20 or 30 minutes, I don't cheer because the game's so fast that I can max out my character while barely trying, I lament that there are no long-term goals to look towards - no reasons to keep me playing for years to come.

In FFXI, I got the ability to look back at the harrowing experiences in Valkurm Dunes and shudder, laugh, and wistfully reminisce; if there were a "dunes" of FFXIV, I wouldn't look back and have dozens of fond and worthwhile memories, I would look back and think, "I don't remember those low-level places; you can plow to 30 in a day."

I think it comes to whether one wants to play a game or play a world. I want an MMORPG in which I can immerse myself for half a decade, I don't want a little game on the side whose seams become all too visible if I spend more than a couple hours looking at it. In short, I may have a casual playtime, but I don't find value in tinkering around with a casual game. Journey, not destination; exploration and experimentation, not endgame grind.


I agree with you Kane ^^; while I still hold a slightly different opinion. To be honest I leveled all jobs to 15 solo at least. Conjurer and archer to 50 through grinding solo and leves/parties. Lancer I took to 30.

I'm now almost all 50's in battle with only pug left, have miner/fisher/arm to 50. The battle classes I got PL'd yet I still thoroughly enjoy the game and have lots left to do :D

I just got my gambler's crown last night after trying 20 times to get 5 materia on one piece of gear... that was a few mil lol. Still have 5.2 left ^^;

While running around getting my AF it took me through a place I haven't been to in over a year when I was CNJ10. Really brought back memories of seeing lots of people on the server; all fresh little nubcakes grinding away; and of the friends I had made who now since have left. Really fond memories.

I think if you play the game the way you want to play you can enjoy it still; even while others level up faster around you. Remember when they released DNC/SCH and everyone had lv75 a few days later? It's always going to happen; people are like that. I spent a good 20 hours skipping cutscenes and dialog to get my armor and another 30 going back and rewatching them all on my own time; so I didn't hold up those types of people.

Still lots to do for me! ^^

EDIT:

I also wanted to ad that a longtime friend from bahamut wants to play on my server and missed out on the transfer; he's been trying to get in for awhile and I've been tryign to goto his server but it always seems full.

I have no problems PLing him to replace his jobs as he has 1 50 and a few 15-30's. I feel that in some way the PL should stay in the game for at least this exact reason. You may have a friend on another server, no option to xfer, or you're 2 years in and someone wants to join but people are all 50's. I'd at least get a friend upto 30 on PL and let them go out after that ^^

Edited, Mar 13th 2012 7:30am by Elionara
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#18 Mar 13 2012 at 8:54 AM Rating: Good
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I think leveling speed and combat speed are just fine.

If anything leveling speed can be increased. What I don't want to happen is that a 2 second ability cool-down is considered an eternity like in WoW and Rift.
#19 Mar 13 2012 at 10:48 AM Rating: Good
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I wrote in my poll response that they should look at required or at least highly beneficial party quests during the 1-50 grind, this would likely conjure up memories of the FFXI sub-job quest, which it should.

You soloed till 14-16 maybe then you "NEEDED" a party or friends to help you with the sub-job quest. I don't mind people grinding 95% of the way to 50, but some party experience is needed or we'll have a bunch of 50s running around who can't even play their characters.

They should add some new abilities at the lower levels and make them only achievable through light party quests, they shouldn't be absolutely required but they should be enough of an incentive to speed up solo exp and then we'll get some more communal players hopefully
#20 Mar 13 2012 at 11:27 AM Rating: Decent
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SyniteonReflux wrote:
I wrote in my poll response that they should look at required or at least highly beneficial party quests during the 1-50 grind, this would likely conjure up memories of the FFXI sub-job quest, which it should.

You soloed till 14-16 maybe then you "NEEDED" a party or friends to help you with the sub-job quest. I don't mind people grinding 95% of the way to 50, but some party experience is needed or we'll have a bunch of 50s running around who can't even play their characters.

They should add some new abilities at the lower levels and make them only achievable through light party quests, they shouldn't be absolutely required but they should be enough of an incentive to speed up solo exp and then we'll get some more communal players hopefully


The new level 30 job quests are a step in this direction, although far from being a requirement. But those quests have an issue of inconsistency as well - I can't speak for all, but I know that the mobs you face in a few of the unlock quests are completely out of scope for a level 30 quest, being just about impossible for a party of level 30s to complete and in fact more in tune with level 35+ parties. I don't necessarily have an issue with this, aside from a minor annoyance at being able to unlock the quest at 30 but needing high level help to complete it at that level.

Perhaps its just a matter of time. You could certainly level 25+ in FFXI without a subjob, however social norms in that game all but dictated the use of subjobs in parties. Perhaps we'll see here that regular classes are welcome in 30+ parties but jobs are preferred and become the norm.

Edit: it also gives this game a bit of a 'level inflation' appearance in regard to FFXI comparables, which we really shouldn't do I completely understand. If we simply multiply accomplishments and notable milestones in FFXI (pre-abyssea) by 2, we get the FFXIV comparables on a strangely reliable enough basis.

FFXI (pre-abyssea): solo exp optimal until 10-12, parties begin at 12+
FFXIV: solo exp optimal until 20-24, parties *should* return a more favorable exp rate however a lack of a sizable playerbase in this range usually means parties are hard to find.
FFXI (pre-abyssea): subjobs unlock at 18.
FFXIV: jobs unlock at 30 but some (all?) require a group of 35+ to complete.
FFXI (pre-abyssea): advance jobs unlock at 30
FFXIV: no advance jobs yet

Grant this was all just for fun and please take it with a huge dose of salt please. FFXIV is not FFXI and we really should refrain from one-to-one comparisons, although I simply find it helps to break things down to situations we're more familiar with.


Edited, Mar 13th 2012 1:44pm by Whales
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#21 Mar 13 2012 at 11:53 AM Rating: Excellent
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It's my hope that the insane PL right now is because it's just easier for the devs to just use the little bit of time they want to allocate on 1.x on max level. We know that 2.0 is there primary goal but they also have to try and keep those playing happy. So get as many people to skip over the mid-parts of the game and they don't have to worry much about content for it. Then just toss in fights at 50 that have horrid drop rates and such and the capped players have something to do.

That's my hope at least. The current kind of PL would probably hurt 2.0. You really can't give people easy options to circumvent almost the entire leveling process and still expect there to be enough people for a healthy party system.
#22 Mar 13 2012 at 12:23 PM Rating: Decent
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The main reason for someone wanting more of a leveling grind is because they are bored of having nothing to do at endgame. Answer; play less, go outside, get a job, play another game as well, lots of options.


This was posted earlier but ok...Really? That's your amazing words of wisdom? I'm guessing you speak on behalf of every player. But just for humor I'll give you my reasons why I'd enjoy a little bit slower, party based leveling system:

1) Social Aspect: I've played a handful of MMOs and have noticed that the "old-school" system of leveling, where it's party based grinds, definitely play more to this. Using XI as an example, through parties I met a most people in parties. In the end meeting a lot of cool, new players and was able to assess their skills at their respective jobs as well (always a good thing to friend good players!). On the other hand, while playing a game like WoW with cross-server 'random ques' for dungeons (I know not the most effective way of leveling there) and a community/leveling-structure where leveling is more solo-based with spamming quests, I did not get that great feeling. I ended up joining a random guild, it was alright but I found myself facing a kind of barrier in meeting players. I'm sure many will agree with me here, maybe some won't but oh well.

2) Usefulness to pre-40+ gear: <---- Starting to sound like a broken record. Been said time, and time again.

3) Practicing of Skillz: Ahh yes...skill. I can't tell you how many times I've come across players who just straight up cannot play their jobs in this game. I know that's a case in most MMOs but so many don't know their roles. MRD is a tank? OK so we all agree on that. I've been in several parties in Natalan where when asking a MRD to tank, they just don't know they are playing a class that's designed for tanking. Had to tank on PUG from 46-50 because of that (actually worked out quite well lol). In a slower paced leveling system players can learn their roles and not fly to 40+ not knowing how to do anything.

That's all I can think of. Probably other reasons haha but agree or disagree it's your opinion. :)
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#23 Mar 13 2012 at 2:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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The main reason for someone wanting more of a leveling grind is because they are bored of having nothing to do at endgame. Answer; play less, go outside, get a job, play another game as well, lots of options.

Speak for yourself, not for me. I barely have the time to squeeze out a few leves these days,
and nonetheless I would prefer the "casual" pace of FFXI way over the stupid zergfest to
50 in 2 days in XIV.
#24 Mar 13 2012 at 2:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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I posted the following on the official forums awhile back the OP in this case was polling to try to get support for 'longer fights'. I think it is applicable to this conversation where we are talking about leveling speed.

kainsilv wrote:
I think this discussion is kind of a paradox. It isn't as much about the time it takes to kill a monster as it is about strategy. When your party kills a monster (or in the current state of the game, a group of monsters) before you can use even one single ability then strategy cannot exist. So how do you introduce strategy back into battles;

1. You increase the length of the battles
a. You increase a monsters HP.
b. You increase a monsters DEF.
c. You increase a monsters resistance to certain elements or spells.
d. You increase the monsters ability to dodge.
e. You get the idea, etc...

2. You make emnity management key to strategy.

3. You make HP/MP management key to strategy.

4. You make position important to damage and strategy.

5. You improve upon monster AI.
a. Give monsters the ability to strike pre-emptively or anticipate attacks, etc...

6. You require teamwork from players by creating synergies between abilities.
a. Weaponskills, Combos, Battle Regimens, etc...

7. You add elements like EXP Chains to reward skillful play with faster XP.

I think (my opinion) XI had a 'nearly' perfect battle system. I will give you an example and then explain. Final Fantasy XI in The Crawler's Nest...
The set-up (or any similar combination): Ninja, White Mage, Bard, Warrior, Samurai, Thief

Ninja: 'Holy cow! I have to keep shadows up to avoid damage, I have to provoke and do enough damage to keep hate all while the stupid crawler keeps spamming 'slow'.

White Mage: 'Darn it! That stupid crawler won't stop spamming 'slow' and that means I have to keep spamming 'erase'. I also have to keep everyone in the party healed, especially the tank and still have enough MP at the end to keep the pace consistent.

Bard: 'How am I going to keep all these people buffed? I have to keep 'ballad' on the mage. Keep 'madrigal' and 'minuet' on all the damage dealers. Not to mention I have to pull the next monster and 'lullaby' it so it is waiting once the party is done with the first one.'

Warrior: 'Stupid Ninja! We could kill this thing so much faster if he could keep hate from all my weaponskills, traits and abilities.

Samurai: 'I don't think I'm building TP fast enough. I better Meditate and use another weaponskill. Whoops, I pulled hate again. 'Seigan' + 'Third Eye'.

Theif: 'I wish this Samurai could keep the monster turned so I could get 'Sneak Attack' + 'Trick Attack' on the Ninja so he'd stop loosing hate for a minute.


The point: I rarely felt bored during my parties in XI (pre-Abyssea). Could the Experience gain have been faster? Yes, absolutely.
Would I have cared if every monster gave 500XP/kill rather than ~200XP? No, because I was having fun and there was clear strategy.
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#25 Mar 13 2012 at 3:01 PM Rating: Good
kainsilv wrote:
I posted the following on the official forums awhile back the OP in this case was polling to try to get support for 'longer fights'. I think it is applicable to this conversation where we are talking about leveling speed.

kainsilv wrote:
I think this discussion is kind of a paradox. It isn't as much about the time it takes to kill a monster as it is about strategy. When your party kills a monster (or in the current state of the game, a group of monsters) before you can use even one single ability then strategy cannot exist. So how do you introduce strategy back into battles;

1. You increase the length of the battles
a. You increase a monsters HP.
b. You increase a monsters DEF.
c. You increase a monsters resistance to certain elements or spells.
d. You increase the monsters ability to dodge.
e. You get the idea, etc...

2. You make emnity management key to strategy.

3. You make HP/MP management key to strategy.

4. You make position important to damage and strategy.

5. You improve upon monster AI.
a. Give monsters the ability to strike pre-emptively or anticipate attacks, etc...

6. You require teamwork from players by creating synergies between abilities.
a. Weaponskills, Combos, Battle Regimens, etc...

7. You add elements like EXP Chains to reward skillful play with faster XP.

I think (my opinion) XI had a 'nearly' perfect battle system. I will give you an example and then explain. Final Fantasy XI in The Crawler's Nest...
The set-up (or any similar combination): Ninja, White Mage, Bard, Warrior, Samurai, Thief

Ninja: 'Holy cow! I have to keep shadows up to avoid damage, I have to provoke and do enough damage to keep hate all while the stupid crawler keeps spamming 'slow'.

White Mage: 'Darn it! That stupid crawler won't stop spamming 'slow' and that means I have to keep spamming 'erase'. I also have to keep everyone in the party healed, especially the tank and still have enough MP at the end to keep the pace consistent.

Bard: 'How am I going to keep all these people buffed? I have to keep 'ballad' on the mage. Keep 'madrigal' and 'minuet' on all the damage dealers. Not to mention I have to pull the next monster and 'lullaby' it so it is waiting once the party is done with the first one.'

Warrior: 'Stupid Ninja! We could kill this thing so much faster if he could keep hate from all my weaponskills, traits and abilities.

Samurai: 'I don't think I'm building TP fast enough. I better Meditate and use another weaponskill. Whoops, I pulled hate again. 'Seigan' + 'Third Eye'.

Theif: 'I wish this Samurai could keep the monster turned so I could get 'Sneak Attack' + 'Trick Attack' on the Ninja so he'd stop loosing hate for a minute.


The point: I rarely felt bored during my parties in XI (pre-Abyssea). Could the Experience gain have been faster? Yes, absolutely.
Would I have cared if every monster gave 500XP/kill rather than ~200XP? No, because I was having fun and there was clear strategy.


Now why didn't somebody day this in the first place!?
Level Sync + half the exp tnl would have made FFXI just right leveling wise in the Cop era (FFXIV's best period)
Still I don't believe that todays gamers ( non-FFXI veterans, also known as "most people") would put up with leveling being such a time consuming process, as illustrated above, in a game where you have to develop your character in several classes/jobs and not just one, but I am sure there is a halfway house somewhere.
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#26 Mar 13 2012 at 3:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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kainsilv wrote:
The point: I rarely felt bored during my parties in XI (pre-Abyssea). Could the Experience gain have been faster? Yes, absolutely.
Would I have cared if every monster gave 500XP/kill rather than ~200XP? No, because I was having fun and there was clear strategy.


And a good point it is, I think; one that SE should take to heart.
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#27 Mar 14 2012 at 2:41 AM Rating: Good
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KingAlkaiser wrote:
"Are those of us who enjoyed the leveling in FFXI (pre-abyssea) really in the minority?"

the majority of my friends from ff11 all agree with you also I enjoyed slower/more tactical combat in ff11 than int his game where everyone just spams any skills and wins. When i saw ff14 for the first time i thought they would improve on ff11 with pictures showing classes have range domination/etc, but unfortunately we have any class can spam any skill and win anyways.

from magic burst/pulling/tanking/healing skill chain i thought it was extremely fun as well, made people's class feel important and meaningful and a lot more strategic, in ff14 we have parties where you can invite anyone and its just roaming skill spam/AoE spam for the win.

Edited, Mar 12th 2012 5:16pm by KingAlkaiser


My point in numerous other threads exactly. people want a reason to fight? In FFXI leveling up meant progress towards that special gear and understanding your job. Granted, after three, four 30k exp. of repetitive action things were not always all that fun anymore, but I have never experienced this as "countless hours of meaningless grinding". And who doesn't remember those parties that were so bad that they actually became funny? I recently explained to a WoW-playing colleague of mine how things worked in FFXI, how important hate management and the order and timing of weapon skills and and spells were.

And then things became more hack and slash. Sure, more exp/hr, but for me way less fun. And look at what we had in FFXIV! It felt like an button-spamming arcade game, and although things have improved partying is still rock'em'sock'em mayhem. Get a healer and a tank and 6 others and it's all fine. I do not even remember the names of characters I am partying with. All generic to me.

If SE does not change this, then I believe that we're leveling up at the right speed.

Edited, Mar 14th 2012 4:41am by MrMissile
#28 Mar 14 2012 at 4:20 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
but I have never experienced this as "countless hours of meaningless grinding". And who doesn't remember those parties that were so bad that they actually became funny?


...

Hahahahaha!!!

There may be copious amounts of nostalgia involved, but, yes, strangely I most fondly remember the latter.

...

I still want to kick that pansy WHM queen. After so many years... ;)
#29 Mar 14 2012 at 5:15 AM Rating: Good
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Xoie wrote:
A grind just for the sake of a grind is pretty much the dullest thing you can have in an MMO. Give me a reason to fight!


Exactly: The way XI used to do it was the "Bad Way" of doing it. Endless mobs with no story, from one zone to another spending hours and hours in each zone day after day killing endless of mobs is NOT the way to do it.

Star Trek Online does leveling quite well, by doing missions and quests and the "Grind" doesnt feel like a grind till you need another level or two before you can do the "Next" story mission. Then its simple and easy to join the "Random" Events and get some levels in, you can even easily repeat previous missions. The rewards are also actually useful as well, at the very least you can NPC/Sell them getting some thing worth while.

Grind for the sake of grind? do not bother changing it then (XI Style). Grind with a story with drops with better gear along the way with real rewards is the way forward.
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#30 Mar 14 2012 at 5:40 AM Rating: Decent
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What about fun party play instead of a grind?
#31 Mar 14 2012 at 5:51 AM Rating: Good
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I'd like the pace to be a bit slower and partying to be more tactical and strategic. Doesn't have to be like XI, quite frankly I'd like it if I got something different, but still good. Either way though partying for exp should not stay the way it is imo because it is just big mess and not in any way fun to experience.

Also, the way it is now I think the point of getting equipment for any level except late is a waste of time... it doesn't matter because you fly past most levels so fast anyway and I don't like that.

One thing though, if they make leveling a bit slower I think level syncing should be possible as well. Right now it isn't needed because leveling and powerleveling is so fast that anyone can have a level 50 class superfast if you have friends at 50 you want to play with, but if leveling gets slower new players should still be able to play with higher level friends imo and level sync is a great tool for that.

Of course the optimal route would be to let me get to cap by only doing storyline (imo), but I doubt that will happen and for me the quest hub system so many other mmos use is not fun at all so for me they'd have to do something new entirely if they want to change how to exp.
#32 Mar 14 2012 at 7:00 AM Rating: Good
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kainsilv wrote:
I posted the following on the official forums awhile back the OP in this case was polling to try to get support for 'longer fights'. I think it is applicable to this conversation where we are talking about leveling speed.

kainsilv wrote:
I think this discussion is kind of a paradox. It isn't as much about the time it takes to kill a monster as it is about strategy. When your party kills a monster (or in the current state of the game, a group of monsters) before you can use even one single ability then strategy cannot exist. So how do you introduce strategy back into battles;

1. You increase the length of the battles
a. You increase a monsters HP.
b. You increase a monsters DEF.
c. You increase a monsters resistance to certain elements or spells.
d. You increase the monsters ability to dodge.
e. You get the idea, etc...

2. You make emnity management key to strategy.

3. You make HP/MP management key to strategy.

4. You make position important to damage and strategy.

5. You improve upon monster AI.
a. Give monsters the ability to strike pre-emptively or anticipate attacks, etc...

6. You require teamwork from players by creating synergies between abilities.
a. Weaponskills, Combos, Battle Regimens, etc...

7. You add elements like EXP Chains to reward skillful play with faster XP.

I think (my opinion) XI had a 'nearly' perfect battle system. I will give you an example and then explain. Final Fantasy XI in The Crawler's Nest...
The set-up (or any similar combination): Ninja, White Mage, Bard, Warrior, Samurai, Thief

Ninja: 'Holy cow! I have to keep shadows up to avoid damage, I have to provoke and do enough damage to keep hate all while the stupid crawler keeps spamming 'slow'.

White Mage: 'Darn it! That stupid crawler won't stop spamming 'slow' and that means I have to keep spamming 'erase'. I also have to keep everyone in the party healed, especially the tank and still have enough MP at the end to keep the pace consistent.

Bard: 'How am I going to keep all these people buffed? I have to keep 'ballad' on the mage. Keep 'madrigal' and 'minuet' on all the damage dealers. Not to mention I have to pull the next monster and 'lullaby' it so it is waiting once the party is done with the first one.'

Warrior: 'Stupid Ninja! We could kill this thing so much faster if he could keep hate from all my weaponskills, traits and abilities.

Samurai: 'I don't think I'm building TP fast enough. I better Meditate and use another weaponskill. Whoops, I pulled hate again. 'Seigan' + 'Third Eye'.

Theif: 'I wish this Samurai could keep the monster turned so I could get 'Sneak Attack' + 'Trick Attack' on the Ninja so he'd stop loosing hate for a minute.


The point: I rarely felt bored during my parties in XI (pre-Abyssea). Could the Experience gain have been faster? Yes, absolutely.
Would I have cared if every monster gave 500XP/kill rather than ~200XP? No, because I was having fun and there was clear strategy.


I actually would prefer gameplay that rewards skillful play and teamwork. But this has nothing to do with leveling speed. The leveling speed should be brisk if there is not a substantial amount of content in conjunction with standard grind party. Slow or slower experience may not affect you as long as you are having fun. But it affects the majority of gamers. You site FFXI as having perfect combat. If this held true for most, then XI would have had way more subscribers than it did. I loved XI as much as the next guy. Played it seven years while dabbling in other mmos.

Tactical depth is the word I'm searching for. Timesinks and monotone content for the sake of it, is the way of the niche mmo. Are niche mmos a bad thing? No, otherwise I wouldn't have enjoyed XI as much as I did. Following the old everquest formula placed XI into the niche space. Square-Enix is not a "niche company" just because they had one mmo that only attracted a strong niche. They can provide the same tactical depth in this mmo as in their last without slowing down progress for the sake of it.

Final Fantasy didn't become a strong IP because their games took a long time to complete. They became strong because of their games providing tactical depth, deep customization systems, engaging stories and enemies, majestic locales,etc,etc. They kept the series progressing all the while keeping the core roots close to hand. Moving forward with XIV they would do well to remember this and not completely shun what XI built. But at the same time don't fall into the tropes or downsides of XI. That's my thoughts on the subject anyways.
#33 Mar 14 2012 at 10:59 AM Rating: Good
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Whales wrote:
triplealphareaction wrote:
Thayos wrote:
I'm all for grinding, as long as the grinding is fun like it was in FFXI.


You are lucky you are an admin with a pointy sword....


Are those of us who enjoyed the leveling in FFXI (pre-abyssea) really in the minority? :(


Yes, since it seems the general rule is you're not allowed to like grinding or FFXI it seems. Grinding was fun as **** in FFXI because as said, it took you all over the place:

1-10 was around your home nation.

10-15 was around the dunes/bubu *****

15-20 was still there, give or take moving towards qufim at 19

20-25 was qufim/delkfuts/batallia downs

25-30 was middle delkfutts or jungles when released

And so on. In XIV, you just get powered leveled then maybe do strongholds for your leveling experience, it's ridiculous, but it does please people who say grind = bad, though people seem to like Tera and it becomes a grindfest in many ways beyond leveling too.
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#34 Mar 14 2012 at 11:13 AM Rating: Good
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sandpark wrote:
Final Fantasy didn't become a strong IP because their games took a long time to complete.


An epic scope with dozens of hours of gameplay didn't help their popularity?
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#35 Mar 14 2012 at 11:38 AM Rating: Excellent
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Theonehio wrote:
Grinding was fun as **** in FFXI because as said, it took you all over the place:


Although it's completely subjective, I agree completely. That carrot on a stick was always there, pushing you forward:

level 1 - "Ok, just eat some food and blow through these 25-50 exp mobs in the starter area until 10 or so, then I'll join a group in the Dunes"
level 17 - "Oh man, just two/three more levels and I can move to Qufim Island!"
level 23 - "Just a few more levels and it's off to the Jungle for some Mandys!"
level 27 - "I can stay here for a few more levels then I start looking for Citadel / Nest parties!"

and so on.

Call me strange, but I really, really enjoyed this part of FFXI. The continual progress toward something "new" opening up every few levels was an extreme motivator for me to move forward and even though this is repeated a bit in more modern MMOs like World of Warcraft, "Oh man, level 9 and just a few more quests and I can go to The Barrens" just never seemed the same. I can't put my finger on why exactly, but I like to believe it has something to do with the ease upon which I could move around in that game - new areas opening up is not a very compelling push forward when they open up with minimal effort.

It may also have something to do with the repetitive nature of quest hubs in those types of MMOs. NPC ! clicking in one zone was for the most part the same be it a level 10 or level 30 zone. On the contrary, fighting crabs in the Dunes in no way shape or form was similar to fighting Mandragora in the jungle, or crawlers in the nest.

Personal opinion, I know, but that's what I preferred.

Edited, Mar 14th 2012 1:50pm by Whales
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#36 Mar 14 2012 at 2:21 PM Rating: Good
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While we're sharing opinions, I guess I'll throw mine out there. The following are ideas that would appeal to me personally, and as such is highly subjective.

What I'd like to see, if SE was to slow down the rate at which the player levels up, is for some real meaningful content to play through during those levels. The best Final Fantasy games are so rich in atmosphere and unfold at a fairly decent pace. There is very little need to "grind" in them because as you play the game, you fight enemies along the way and level up naturally. You have the option of stopping to grind mobs if you feel a need to become more powerful for whatever reason (maybe you're stuck at a difficult boss, or you're close to learning a new powerful spell or ability), but as a whole it's a minor part of the game compared to the "meat" of it, which is the story, characters, and the world itself (big emphasis on this last part, because in an online version designed for replayability this will have the most impact).

With that in mind, to make the leveling process enjoyable, the entire game as a whole needs to be enjoyable, with activities I might consider doing for enjoyment even if the rewards weren't attached. SE could not release a single player Final Fantasy game where you walk outside and don't really have anything to do but grind levels and expect it to be a monumental success, so why expect it from an online one? This is Final Fantasy we're talking about, not Everquest. In modern online games we can do so much more than joining a group to slaughter wildlife. And I'm not even saying that slaughtering wildlife shouldn't be an option, but I'd rather see it be just that, an option, certainly not the meat of the game.

So what would be the meat of the game then? Well to start, I'd love to see a beautiful varied world that invites you to explore it further. More small towns to visit, just more zones in general. After that, give me something cool to do in them, and put some real serious thought into making these activities enjoyable. Call it what you want, a quest, a mission, an event, whatever, just make it something people would want to do and reward them for doing it with experience points. As a completely made up, on the spot idea, they could create a main storyline for each of the three starting towns to play through (and I mean really play through: performing specific tasks, fighting mobs along the way, fighting bosses, possibly bringing your friends along for the ride) on the way to reaching the level cap. Since FFXIV encourages you to level multiple job classes, you could then play through the other storylines for a completely new experience with another two job classes. That's already three classes leveled using what could potentially be enjoyable content. And that is just one possible idea of a great many that could be implemented.

Edited, Mar 14th 2012 4:23pm by Susanoh
#37 Mar 14 2012 at 2:30 PM Rating: Good
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I wish you guys posted this on the official forums, I don't go there, but I am also a FFXI fan, those nostalgia moments, especially the carrot on the stick is the only thing that will keep me playing FFXIV.

I subbed a week ago, joined my first lvl 40 party the other day, literally all I did as tank was grab hate and run to the next mob while the 7 other people basically two-shotted the previous mob I pulled. This is sad because leveling a new job in FFXI was something I actually looked forward to.

I guess 2.0 will have all new maps, and I think Yoshida understands what we're all agreeing on here, it's just too bad by then with this powerleveling pace we'll all be 50 on every job
#38 Mar 14 2012 at 2:50 PM Rating: Good
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There really was something special about needing a party...crashing the front entrance of a popular leveling spot, putting up your flag...and waiting for a party. That process in itself was part of the game. Some nights you may not even get a party...but you still never really felt you were wasting your time in the game.

Then leveling and being able to "graduate" from one area and heading off to the next...where everyone knew where you were headed, and wanted to be.

Yea..good ol' FFXI...FFXIV will never be able to top that. Not sure any MMO will.
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#39 Mar 14 2012 at 2:57 PM Rating: Good
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Well if you look at the new map redesigns maybe... cross ur fingers, just hope they FORCE people to at least visit a crag or something first, so people don't just teleport to the new areas
#40 Mar 14 2012 at 3:17 PM Rating: Good
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SyniteonReflux wrote:
I wish you guys posted this on the official forums, I don't go there


Most people don't either. If the FFXIV dev team was smart they'd take everything they read on the official forums, disregard them and do the opposite.

I read them but don't post - and that's intentional.

Edited, Mar 14th 2012 5:19pm by Whales
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#41 Mar 14 2012 at 5:54 PM Rating: Default
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I choose that leveling is way to fast because well it is, I see so many level 40+ players that have no idea how to play their jobs at all mostly due to how fast you can level in a normal party, nevermind powerleveling which is even faster. If they intend to leav e leveling as it is, they should seriously consider removing most of the weapons and maybe making a new weapon every 5-7 levels insted of like every 2-3 for most jobs, Mrd and Gladiator come to mind, has to be a new weapon every 2nd level or so for these.
#42 Mar 14 2012 at 6:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Leveling is to fast, because there is nothing to do at lower levels, outside of the main quest, and a few interesting side-quest, the entire world is barren and empty, there is a huge world, but nothing to explore, no point of interest, not like FFXI-EQ-WOW etc etc, where each new zone, brought new enemies and interesting places to explore, SE really needs to focus in mid-top level content, for their re-release and add a few dungeons for lower levels.

Also more camps ala wow would not hurt, or atleast quest hubs, proper ones, where stuff is going on and **** <.<
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#43 Mar 14 2012 at 10:15 PM Rating: Decent
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Ostia wrote:
Also more camps ala wow would not hurt, or at least quest hubs, proper ones, where stuff is going on and sh*t <.<


I certainly cannot argue with much of what you said. I just need some clarification. Behests, leves, escort missions and soon to be hamlet defense doesn't classify as stuff? or quest hubs? What does? What exactly else would you do?

I want to be careful here to add that I don't think it is enough but there certainly is 'stuff'. I debated if I should say anything but I was really curious about the response.
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#44 Mar 15 2012 at 12:40 AM Rating: Good
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Kainsilv I think we mean a minimal amount of content is that you go somewhere new or battle changes somewhat significantly every 5 levels? And every 5 levels should be a day or so? I mean in FFXI you switched zones every 4-5 levels, and new actions opened up that made combat interesting. Good gear also was a good carrot on a stick to work towards.

In FFXIV it's more like, grind the same stuff for 5 levels, then do a fancy quest or whatever then go back to grinding another five levels IN THE SAME EXACT PLACE, it's like a boring grind with filler
#45 Mar 15 2012 at 12:47 AM Rating: Good
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kainsilv wrote:
Ostia wrote:
Also more camps ala wow would not hurt, or at least quest hubs, proper ones, where stuff is going on and sh*t <.<


I certainly cannot argue with much of what you said. I just need some clarification. Behests, leves, escort missions and soon to be hamlet defense doesn't classify as stuff? or quest hubs? What does? What exactly else would you do?

I want to be careful here to add that I don't think it is enough but there certainly is 'stuff'. I debated if I should say anything but I was really curious about the response.


I meant, more in the lines of having a questline in each camp/zone that focuses on the issues and problems of each, instead of having nothing, and just leves wish btw add nothing at all to the lore or storyline, escort missions and behest are "OK" but not as main content, also hamlet defense would be static, no lore no story progress on those(in my opinion)

For example, the empire is supposed to be this big bad empire that is closing in on the city states, yet they are nowhere to be seen, there is no foward bases, or frontlines, why not create a few camps that are under attack by the empire and have us do different type of quest to support them againts the attack, not just "Go kill X number of soldiers" but bring supply's, escort supply caravans, defeat x number of enemies, donate X amount of resources for the war effort(Finally make those crafting classes useful) you can do so much with a war scenario and specially with Phasing technology that it can actually be pretty cool and engaging.

It worked in wow, why would it not work in FFXIV, where it should be 100X more storyline driven ? They can even have some quest where you fight on your chocobos, or do bombing runs with airships etc etc.
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#46 Mar 15 2012 at 1:06 AM Rating: Decent
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I think this is all coming in 2.0 though, which isn't too far off.. If you haven't seen the roadmap yet http://wdl.square-enix.com/ffxiv/download/en/FFXIV_2.0_Roadmap_EN.pdf it's only in Oct, can't wait!
#47 Mar 15 2012 at 7:43 AM Rating: Excellent
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SyniteonReflux wrote:
I think this is all coming in 2.0 though, which isn't too far off.. If you haven't seen the roadmap yet http://wdl.square-enix.com/ffxiv/download/en/FFXIV_2.0_Roadmap_EN.pdf it's only in Oct, can't wait!


I wouldn't get your hopes up of the timeline in that document being absolute. For instance 1.21's launch was pushed back well into the timeframe of 1.22, so it appears the FFXIV release schedule is already at least a month behind schedule with two more major updates to go before 2.0.

At this point I think a December 2012 release for 2.0 or even January/February 2013 is more realistic.
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#48 Mar 15 2012 at 9:28 AM Rating: Decent
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Whales wrote:
SyniteonReflux wrote:
I think this is all coming in 2.0 though, which isn't too far off.. If you haven't seen the roadmap yet http://wdl.square-enix.com/ffxiv/download/en/FFXIV_2.0_Roadmap_EN.pdf it's only in Oct, can't wait!


I wouldn't get your hopes up of the timeline in that document being absolute. For instance 1.21's launch was pushed back well into the timeframe of 1.22, so it appears the FFXIV release schedule is already at least a month behind schedule with two more major updates to go before 2.0.

At this point I think a December 2012 release for 2.0 or even January/February 2013 is more realistic.


Unless Yoshi is lying through is teeth 2.0 is worked on by a separate team and as such wouldn't suffer the same fate as 1.X updates. He's stared numerous times that in no way do delays on 1.X content affect 2.0.
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#49 Mar 15 2012 at 10:04 AM Rating: Excellent
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Elionara wrote:
Unless Yoshi is lying through is teeth 2.0 is worked on by a separate team and as such wouldn't suffer the same fate as 1.X updates. He's stared numerous times that in no way do delays on 1.X content affect 2.0.


Really? That's fantastic if true, but my understanding is the in-game transition (mostly lore) from 1.x to 2.0 is being set up by the last few patches and as such won't we need 1.23 deployed before 2.0 comes about? So if 1.23 is delayed according to the published timeline, then by necessity won't 2.0 also have to suffer the same fate?
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#50 Mar 15 2012 at 10:22 AM Rating: Default
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Whales wrote:
Elionara wrote:
Unless Yoshi is lying through is teeth 2.0 is worked on by a separate team and as such wouldn't suffer the same fate as 1.X updates. He's stared numerous times that in no way do delays on 1.X content affect 2.0.


Really? That's fantastic if true, but my understanding is the in-game transition (mostly lore) from 1.x to 2.0 is being set up by the last few patches and as such won't we need 1.23 deployed before 2.0 comes about? So if 1.23 is delayed according to the published timeline, then by necessity won't 2.0 also have to suffer the same fate?


Mid April 2012 - Patch 1.22 (and subsequent hotfixes)
⇒Garuda (Primal) battle./ Battle system balance adjustments
⇒Garlean Empire battle content

Early to Mid July 2012 - Patch 1.23 (and subsequent hotfixes)
⇒Garlean Empire Legatus battle
⇒Content surrounding the Twelve mythos

November is when 2.0 is set to go live with software being sent out Sept/Oct.

As it stands even if 1.23 is 2 months late it's still enough time to spend 2 months on the content and watching cutscenes. ^^ We will most likely get the last patch end of July/1st week of August. Based on previous ones.
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#51 Mar 15 2012 at 2:08 PM Rating: Good
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Rinsui wrote:
Yep. The whole "positioning will be important" and "classes will have different combat ranges" was, for the most part, just smoke and mirror.

And btw: I really, really think level-capped content was one of the most entertaining diversions from "endgame" there was in FFXI. Like a blast from the past when you took your fully merited uber-monk down to a ride through 'ye olde 30s. But I fear lots of people hated this. For reasons I don't understand.


Gear and limited inventory is something that comes to mind
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