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Is the boost to Paladin enough to keep the job viable?Follow

#1 Mar 26 2012 at 4:43 PM Rating: Good
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I'm just curious what you guys think about the improvements to Paladin. I was greatly disappointed when the class once again took a back seat to marauder/warrior in tanking...I just enjoy tanking more with a sword and shield for aesthetic purposes. I'm not saying the job is broken by any means, its a great tanking class and will be twice as good now with the new Divine Veil ability *but* I still feel that so long as the dungeons' best gear is rewarded on timed finishes the Warrior tank will be preferred (the only way for Paladin to be the tank of choice for that type of content would be to nerf the Warrior's Def or HP I guess).
#2 Mar 26 2012 at 5:27 PM Rating: Decent
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Tino* :P Trust me when I say PLD is still a great tank, just played differently. So many people just don't see. These changes are very welcome!

Edited, Mar 26th 2012 4:28pm by Elionara
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#3 Mar 26 2012 at 5:42 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm with you. I think War needs a decrease on defense. I think is ok on HP, but it should have more defense than PLD.
#4 Mar 26 2012 at 6:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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PLD needs a significant boost in HP. I don't know what they were thinking when they decided to give PLD lower HP than Gladiator and to add insult to injury, I find myself using Materia'd Cobalt gear over the AF gear. I was hoping some changes to the Gallant set were incoming as well.
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#5 Mar 26 2012 at 7:52 PM Rating: Good
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Pld looks awesom for long standing hate control fights. But in the current raids, you want speed to make to the chest so War will be choosed since it does better dps.


Pld will be good for kiting fights, like moogle or the like... or some HNM in the world.


Maybe nerfing War a little, but i prefer they buff Pld HP and i think all will be good. Also, how do pld get mp back is somthing to work for.

cya.
#6 Mar 26 2012 at 11:58 PM Rating: Good
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I'm dead against pulling down some other classes/jobs just to give Pld a chance.

What Pld needs is more ways to reduce dmg taken. A reduction of defensive abilities cool downs when using Pld soul should be the way to go.

Nerfing other classes/jobs ain't the way to go, for it will just create more rift and wipe spread discontent.
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#7 Mar 27 2012 at 1:24 AM Rating: Good
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Give it some time. They're still going to need to do balancing runs to make sure all the classes are within a few points of each other. They're doing 101 things at once trying to get 2.0 out on time. This isn't to say you should be happy about it, but just understand that they'll get it right (or at least better) as they realize what needs to be fixed.
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#8 Mar 27 2012 at 10:08 AM Rating: Decent
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If Paladin has any more damage reduction it will simply be immune to all physical damage.

In it's current state, a Paladin doesn't need a dedicated healer in a tank and spank party (before 1.21a) as long as they can get the MP bard song. Meaning, one more dd to the party (war maybe:P).

With the current changes, Pld should only need one healer when fighting bosses. Old school 11 style one Whm for the party should be possible.

I never understood the GIVE ME MORE HP idea. This was dis-proven in 11, and it still seems to hold no water in 14. With Paladin's defense, it does not take enough damage to warrant a need to have more HP. While HP does definitely influence Spirits Within, and the right set of gear will create a happy balance between HP and defense, Paladins are now nearly invincible for 50% of any given fight (obviously mage jobs will hurt pld something fierce). But, 20 seconds of no physical damage combined with Aegis Boon, a decent evasion, and block rate, any paladin should take less then 50% the damage a war would take.

It's just another one of those more DPS means better party situations. Which will lead to people going all Zerg against mobs, and if a tank can't hold hate, then they are not a good tank.

The build and idea was for party members to work together, and find a balance between hate and damage. I could tank as pld against ifrit (obviously before 1.21a) and get a speed run. Simply put, there is no reason, need or purpose to kill faster than that, other than "My DPS is highest".

I understand people want to do more damage and do it faster, but, the reason for enmity is to have that mentality tempered with skill.

Paladin could hold hate pre update, and now that they should be taking significantly less damage, they should now be able to hold hate far better than a war. The significance being, do you want a Whm spamming cures, or nuking with the party.

In every AV/CC run I have done we lose two party members to healing jobs, that their sole purpose in the party is to spam cures on the tank, and people talk about peaking damage output that way... Seems a little counter-productive to me... But, I am probably just naive, since, I haven't see what happens with a paladin tank (no one tries it, because Pld sucks is the common conception).
#9 Mar 27 2012 at 10:40 AM Rating: Good
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rfolkker wrote:
I never understood the GIVE ME MORE HP idea. This was dis-proven in 11, and it still seems to hold no water in 14.


I thought the opposite was proven in FFXI - that defence (and especially VIT) were generally useless in the face of max HP and spam-cures. Regardless, though, it doesn't really matter what stats did in FFXI. :P

That said, I do think that you make a good point when you say that "the reason for enmity is to have that [zerg] mentality tempered with skill." That is quite quite astute.
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#10 Mar 27 2012 at 12:26 PM Rating: Decent
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My HP comment was more towards the end of the Mnk tank era.

#11 Mar 29 2012 at 9:10 AM Rating: Good
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Like I said in the OP, the Paladin job is a good tanking class....actually I would go as far as to say its a "great" tanking class. The only problem is, so long as Warrior can survive just as well as the Paladin can the class wont be "needed" in raids. In my perfect world, I would like to see the Warrior get a nerf to its DEF/HP only (everything else should stay the same) making it perfect for offtanking and CC but leaving the main tank duties to the Paladin.

I get what was said about being able to have one less healer with the Bard buff and all *but* on fight like the Coincutter for instance, a paladin can't sit there and get caught in healing animation or else they will get one-shotted by the 100 Ton Hammer.... where the Warrior doesn't even need to dodge that attack, all they have to do is sit in one spot and cast Featherfoot/Foresight to evade it completely or if they don't have those 2 up they can just take the hit to the face and still survive with their 4600+ HP.

Edit: That's not to say a Paladin can't tank the fight, just saying its almost effortless for the Warrior and a lot of work for the Paladin =) I have yet to be able try out the Paladin again in that raid since the patch, if/when I get an invite for it I will see how it goes with the new/revamped abilities ^^



Edited, Mar 29th 2012 11:27am by scorleone
#12 Mar 29 2012 at 10:19 AM Rating: Good
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scorleone wrote:
Like I said in the OP, the Paladin job is a good tanking class....actually I would go as far as to say its a "great" tanking class. The only problem is, so long as Warrior can survive just as well as the Paladin can the class wont be "needed" in raids. In my perfect world, I would like to see the Warrior get a nerf to its DEF/HP only (everything else should stay the same) making it perfect for offtanking and CC but leaving the main tank duties to the Paladin.

I get what was said about being able to have one less healer with the Bard buff and all *but* on fight like the Coincutter for instance, a paladin can't sit there and get caught in healing animation or else they will get one-shotted by the 100 Ton Hammer.... where the Warrior doesn't even need to dodge that attack, all they have to do is sit in one spot and cast Featherfoot/Foresight to evade it completely or if they don't have those 2 up they can just take the hit to the face and still survive with their 4600+ HP.

Edit: That's not to say a Paladin can't tank the fight, just saying its almost effortless for the Warrior and a lot of work for the Paladin =) I have yet to be able try out the Paladin again in that raid since the patch, if/when I get an invite for it I will see how it goes with the new/revamped abilities ^^
Edited, Mar 29th 2012 11:27am by scorleone


PLD has reusable ability that blocks all physical attacks for 20 seconds, 60 second recast. Outmaneuver Aegis boon ftw!

You won't get caught in a healing animation, moving while casting = *poof* no lock unless you're in the final stages of a cast. He also can't spam moves faster than 9 seconds so that would take care of animation plus run :)

There's too possible ways to fight coincounter both of which end in his death in the same amount of time. Run in and out of his aoe with rest of party standing still; or take it to the face with the rest of the party standing still ^^

You need a more accepting group!

EDIT: Regarding PLD being more work. More work is more rewarding imho :) I had a tard ask me last night to get off my pld because I can't generate hate on ifrit. Get off my *** >.> Kept hate even with 6 thm's and a whm. ^^

Now, crowd tanking? pld can bite it's own nuts... can't tank a crowd worth a dam, come in mr. warrior~!

Edited, Mar 29th 2012 10:29am by Elionara
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Quote:
Like Final Fantasy XI, the game specs will be extremely high for the time, but in about 5 years, an average machine can run it on max settings with little to no issues. Tanaka also expressed interest in making a benchmark program available.

FilthMcNasty wrote:
I endorse this thread.
#13 Mar 29 2012 at 11:41 AM Rating: Decent
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scorleone wrote:
Like I said in the OP, the Paladin job is a good tanking class....actually I would go as far as to say its a "great" tanking class. The only problem is, so long as Warrior can survive just as well as the Paladin can the class wont be "needed" in raids. In my perfect world, I would like to see the Warrior get a nerf to its DEF/HP only (everything else should stay the same) making it perfect for offtanking and CC but leaving the main tank duties to the Paladin.

I get what was said about being able to have one less healer with the Bard buff and all *but* on fight like the Coincutter for instance, a paladin can't sit there and get caught in healing animation or else they will get one-shotted by the 100 Ton Hammer.... where the Warrior doesn't even need to dodge that attack, all they have to do is sit in one spot and cast Featherfoot/Foresight to evade it completely or if they don't have those 2 up they can just take the hit to the face and still survive with their 4600+ HP.

Edit: That's not to say a Paladin can't tank the fight, just saying its almost effortless for the Warrior and a lot of work for the Paladin =) I have yet to be able try out the Paladin again in that raid since the patch, if/when I get an invite for it I will see how it goes with the new/revamped abilities ^^



Edited, Mar 29th 2012 11:27am by scorleone



Correct me if I am wrong, and I haven't tanked CC yet, so I don't know, but wouldn't Aegis boon just convert 100 ton hammer to HP? It appears to be a physical attack (especially if a war can dodge it), meaning that a pld has a 100% survival rate, while the evade abilities crank up your chance to evade, but there is still a chance you can get hit.

And getting caught in an animation lock from spell casting would be about the same as getting stuck in an animation lock from using an ability.
#14 Mar 31 2012 at 3:53 AM Rating: Good
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I'll just throw this in here...

Quote:
I just got some top secret information about the effect of “Enhances Cover” found on the Gallant Surcoat…

While one may believe that it improves the effect of Cover itself, it actually adds a whole new bonus to the ability all together!

Specifically, when taking damage while under the effect of Cover, you will gain an MP recovery effect. This applies not only to the damage you take instead of a party member, but also the damage the paladin receives directly.

…I’ve already said too much and hear footsteps…I DID NOT SAY ANYTHING!


It's on the Lodestone Dev Tracker
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#15 Apr 03 2012 at 11:41 PM Rating: Good
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Perrin, ****** Superhero wrote:
I'll just throw this in here...

Quote:
I just got some top secret information about the effect of “Enhances Cover” found on the Gallant Surcoat…

While one may believe that it improves the effect of Cover itself, it actually adds a whole new bonus to the ability all together!

Specifically, when taking damage while under the effect of Cover, you will gain an MP recovery effect. This applies not only to the damage you take instead of a party member, but also the damage the paladin receives directly.

…I’ve already said too much and hear footsteps…I DID NOT SAY ANYTHING!


It's on the Lodestone Dev Tracker


So wait...a completely useless ability for most any dungeon or high level event will be getting a buff so that it can never be used because any party doing things even half assed right will never have any mage or other job incapable of taking two hits without dying anywhere near the PLD you say?

Brilliant, absolute geniuses working at SE.


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#16 Apr 04 2012 at 12:29 AM Rating: Good
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What do you mean it can never be used? You can just throw it on anyone in the party, and receive the mp return. Even if the enemy is hitting you directly, you still receive the mp. There's nothing preventing you from using it in this way, I use it frequently like this when duoing to keep my MP up.

I do think that cover needs some work though. In trash situations, there's usually so many mobs, and so much aggro bouncing around, that targeting it effectively isn't worth the time or mental energy required. And on bosses, if you've lost aggro you're usually too busy trying to get it back to toss up cover, because chances are that the longer the bosses is in the wrong spot, whether his attacks are being redirected to you or not, the more likely it is someone is going to die due to positional moves.

Some kind of significant threat mitigation on the target, or something along those lines might be enough to make it more worthwhile.
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