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Post 1.21 HNM & Faction LevesFollow

#1 Apr 03 2012 at 7:46 PM Rating: Good
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As a returning player, defeating HNMs, completing faction leves and receiving the corresponding achievements is content I'm interested in knocking out. My question is for those who have experience in these battles since the addition of the job system.

This is in direct reference to mobs like Elder Mosshorn, Dodore, as well as faction leves for Templar, Harlequin set etc. How many people are necessary and if there are any strategies or tips you'd like to share, what are they? I was able to dig up almost no recent information on these fights, so any information, vague or specific is appreciated. Thanks!
#2 Apr 03 2012 at 8:00 PM Rating: Good
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No one does them from my experience.
#3 Apr 03 2012 at 9:53 PM Rating: Good
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Hence the lack of information, I realize there is almost no incentive to do them, (aside from possibly Dodore) and thus it's very rare to do them. However, there has to be someone out there who has bothered to participate in one of these fights, if not out of sheer boredom, so I'm curious if anyone has any information.

I'm not worried about how popular they are, just how many people I should bother to drag along with me.
#4 Apr 03 2012 at 10:52 PM Rating: Good
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You can easily go around and do the ones you mentioned with a party of 6. And the faction leves drop quite a bit of EXP too, in the 10,000+ range.

If you want to get the Bane of Tribes achievement from beating the beastmen lords in the stronghold you'll want multiple parties. I'm talking 20 people ish. Less if you can bring an army of Warriors.

For the HNMs, if you can get a solid tank and a healer (maybe two), you can do with almost any setup with little difficulty.

Edited, Apr 3rd 2012 9:53pm by UltKnightGrover
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#5 Apr 03 2012 at 11:32 PM Rating: Good
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So 6 for faction leves and HNMs? You mentioned EXP, so the highest tier faction leves can be completed below lv50? About what level would be appropriate?

20 people for the bane of tribes seems troublesome, but thanks for the info.

Anything special to be aware of for any of these fights?
#6 Apr 04 2012 at 12:27 AM Rating: Good
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I would say if you were level 45 it would need a full 8. But remember, these HNMs came out at a time when we were much weaker and there were 15-man parties. After the change in algorithms, they're very easy if you can get a few others to help.
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#7 Apr 04 2012 at 12:32 AM Rating: Decent
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UltKnightGrover wrote:
I would say if you were level 45 it would need a full 8. But remember, these HNMs came out at a time when we were much weaker and there were 15-man parties. After the change in algorithms, they're very easy if you can get a few others to help.


Right, this is exactly why I'm asking, I actually don't have anything that would benefit from exping on the faction leves, you just mentioned they're worth doing for EXP, so I considered holding off on doing them until I have something in that range.

As for the HNMs etc, I was specifically asking for more recent information because of the rebalancing and job additions that have been made. So I was wondering how these HNMs will stack up against lv50 AF wearing jobs, because 99% of the information I can find is information about fighting these HNMs back before auto-attack was a thing.
#8 Apr 04 2012 at 12:38 AM Rating: Good
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Dont worry about holding off for the "10000+ xp", while it's probably true you can make that amount in less than 15 mins in an xp party which is the norm at higher levels. Even running dungeons can get you good xp. If u have the chance of running these NMs don't pass them until later i mean.
#9 Apr 04 2012 at 12:55 AM Rating: Good
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Yeah, but when you're trying to get a few others to help, a lot don't know about the faction leves. But that can probably entice them to join you, I don't know.
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#10 Apr 04 2012 at 12:56 AM Rating: Decent
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Any of these NMs I'll be doing if and when I decide to form the group myself, which is how I tend to get things done. (Not like I'm going to see anyone else shouting about these.) Which is why I'm trying to gather info, so that when I decide to form a group, I know what the **** to do for each, haha.
#11 Apr 04 2012 at 5:22 AM Rating: Good
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It can be done with 4 people, or possibly 3, especially the Faction NM. The world NM will be tougher and may require more DPS to bring it down before it goes poof. The fights themselves are pretty straightforward, if there are minions try to get rid of them one by one first before you go for the big one. Dodore and Uraeus can Petrification, Buffalo sometimes charge forward hence your healer don't stay in front of it.
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#12 Apr 04 2012 at 9:55 AM Rating: Excellent
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I have done all the HNMs and Faction NMs since the release of Jobs, and our experience so far is:
Dodore: Can be done w/ 4, but is messy an annoying. Basically, pld takes Dodore, and 3 blms zerg the links. Very dangerous strat, since only the pld has raise, but it can be done. Best pt setup we have done is 1 whm, war or pld tank for dodore (personal preference is for pld), war for links, and an archer, everything else is just for killing links.
If you are going for drops, skip the blms, they kill too fast, and mess with chances. Use War to break tail (maim), and war/pld to incap eye (Skull Sunder, and new pld ability, I forgot the name off hand).

Great Buffalo: Still would recommend a party of 6 for this annoying beast. Arc and blm best, 2 healers, preferably whm, a pld tank for dmg reduction, and it is only a single target. DDs on a hill, mages off to a side, and tank with their back against a wall. Pld should use Aegis boon to block the charge ability. A skilled pt w/ drg can trip him, giving you good down time, and tank should work on incap.

Goblin: Pld main tank, war off tank links, a single whm can handle cures, but a whm per split and either go the blm zerg route, or melee, with stun. Melee groups should focus on a single mob at a time to prevent being overrun by bombs and hail marys. Incap is a pain on this one, as it is easier to kill the boss then it is to actually incap him. Multiple plds works well, other than that, I don't remember other abilities that can hit arms.

The Peiste is cake. This can be done with 3 people, a whm, dd, and war. The biggest issue here is keeping the whm from getting hate. The trick here is not doing weaponskills while his eyes are glowing, and everyone should have drops for petrify (spine drops? I can never remember which ones). Only the tank should be infront of the mob, and the dds should stand to the opposite side of the healer forming a triangle around the mob. This will prevent the entire party from being petrified, and if mob switches aggro when the tank is petrified, whoever doesn't have hate should unpetrify the tank (either esuna or drops) as fast as possible. And remember, as long as his eyes are glowing he will continue to petrify anyone infront of him.

As for the leves, they still require 4-5 people. With 4 people, the mob count is still very high, and their damage output is still very painful. You want to pull one group at a time, kill the weakest mob first, and work your way up. Leaving the Leve NM for last.

For the Drake, that can be hard. Consistantly, they are too grouped together, and drakes aggro to sound and sight, so walking and staying behind them is necessary if you need to go in for a close pull. The drakes without bands are the weakest (don't remember if they show up in the NM run or if it's only the one before), then the Amalja?, then the drakes with bands, then the NM amalja, then the NM drake.

for the buffalo, it's a weaker version of the great buffalo, SS and regen can keep melee up, and when the other mobs show up, a second tank keeping them busy should get the buffalo down (it's been a bit since I beat him, don't remember much of the specifics). All and all, he was the easiest of the Factions leves.

The wolf was a Pain. Hardest part here is that the wolves always move around, making weaponskills a pain, and for Drg, any linear AoE can wake slept mobs. Which, the best bet on this one is to sleep what you are not killing, and focus on the weakest mobs first, and move up the chain. The groupings are very easy to only fight one group at a time, it's easier than the drake, but a bit harder than the Buffalo. Definitely can be done with 3 people, just time consuming (we ended with 5 minutes left on the clock with a war, drg, and whm).

Anyways, that was my experience with them. They are still fun, but yeah, none of them require a full pt. a balanced pt of 6 is no problem if you are doing a pickup pt. And other than the buffalo, pretty much any party makeup with any tank and a healer works fine.

The buffalo is a pain, and he does have a hate reset move which makes him more annoying. But he really is only hard if you are going for the drops.

Oh, and I almost forgot the Ram. A party of 4, war tank, a whm, and dds focusing on one mob at a time, tanking out the non-NM ram first (to cut back on knockback dmg) is a cake.

For the most part we found that other than Dodore and the great buffalo, AoE did more pt distruction than it was worth, and single targeting mobs got the fight over with faster and smoother.

(Please note, this was from memory, and may have some inconsistencies, but the overall information is accurate).
#13 Apr 04 2012 at 1:27 PM Rating: Decent
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Rfolkker, fantastic info, I feel like I can go into each fight with some idea of how many people to bring, as well as how to approach the fight. I'm also glad to hear that single targeting is generally the way to go. My only 50 is PLD (reasonably geared, full AF + materia gear etc) which means I'll be tanking even the fights you suggested warrior tank, unless a random pug response is from a WAR, but since you mentioned single-target being the way to go, I'm not as worried about how I'll manage to do that.
#14 Apr 04 2012 at 2:57 PM Rating: Good
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rfolkker wrote:
If you are going for drops, skip the blms, they kill too fast, and mess with chances. Use War to break tail (maim), and war/pld to incap eye (Skull Sunder, and new pld ability, I forgot the name off hand).

(Please note, this was from memory, and may have some inconsistencies, but the overall information is accurate).


I know myself and others greatly appreciate your info, HOWEVER... SE has repeadetly stated that incapacitation has nothing to do with drop rates. It's more of a skill to make life easier on parties that aren't at peak or for mobs that are super hard (*EDIT* As per conversation that follows, it does change what drops on some mobs just not % I was thinking rfolkker was talking about drop rate vs drop ITEM).

Quote:
Seems like there are myths spreading about incapacitation increasing drop rates? Sounds like a bully beating up a kid for his lunch money to me. Unfortunately, this is in fact only a myth.

Below are the true effects of incapacitation:
•Enfeebles the enemy
•Prevents the enemy from using special abilities
•Alters the materials that are obtainable after defeat (depends on the incapacitation)


http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/10510-INCAP-love-DEV1027?p=616058#post616058

I know, just like XI and crafting and drops people will swear they have proof. The only difference this time is a 100% resounding NO from the devs whereas the answers I saw in XI left things open to speculation.

Once again, thank you for the info on the above fights. I hope to put it to good use someday, but I thought I'd share the drop bit with you ^.~

Edited, Apr 5th 2012 7:12pm by Perrin

Edited, Apr 5th 2012 7:28pm by Perrin
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#15 Apr 05 2012 at 1:52 AM Rating: Excellent
rfolkker wrote:


For the Drake, that can be hard. Consistantly, they are too grouped together, and drakes aggro to sound and sight, so walking and staying behind them is necessary if you need to go in for a close pull. The drakes without bands are the weakest (don't remember if they show up in the NM run or if it's only the one before), then the Amalja?, then the drakes with bands, then the NM amalja, then the NM drake.



This can be duo'd by the way. I have done this several times just for kicks with a WAR tanking and WHM supporting. Slow fight I admit but definitely doable! :)
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#16 Apr 05 2012 at 9:46 AM Rating: Good
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Perrin, I'm sorry, your statement is in error.
rfolkker wrote:
If you are going for drops, skip the blms, they kill too fast, and mess with chances. Use War to break tail (maim), and war/pld to incap eye (Skull Sunder, and new pld ability, I forgot the name off hand).

Quote:
•Alters the materials that are obtainable after defeat (depends on the incapacitation)

Perrin, ****** Superhero wrote:
I know, just like XI and crafting and drops people will swear they have proof. The only difference this time is a 100% resounding NO from the devs whereas the answers I saw in XI left things open to speculation.


It is still a common belief, and I have yet to hear or see to the contrary that the NM drop items come from incapacitation. You don't get the drops if you don't incapacitate. Which is why I said, if you are going for the drops, not if you want a better chance (my mess with the chances comment was in reference to the chance of incap).

The only incap that I know for a fact is for the Ram (break horns). The Gob I would assume is to break the sword arm. The Ahriman we incap both the head and the tail, so I don't know which one works (I would assume it's the tail), and the Peiste... I am assuming again, it's the tail. And well, with the buffalo people tend to want to nuke from a distance (including myself), so I am still ~0/8 on it's drop (which could still mean it's a drop item and I am incredibly unlucky).

So far, of the 5 NMs I have seen drops off of the Peiste, the Ahriman, and the Ram. I have not seen a drop off the Buffalo or the gob.
The Ahriman drop was in a run someone else was running, and we incapacitated his tail and his head. Same went for the Peiste. I admit I am operating on what I was told, and logical sense with the Gob, and so far no drops on straight kills. The Ram is by far the easiest to confirm, and I made the armor for a friend as soon as we got the horns (2/3 when breaking the horns).

I will not claim to be an expert or know them that completely, nor will I intentionally spread mis-information.

Below is a list of incap results that I have found to date from normal mobs (some are really fun, and interesting, while others just simply modify the mob/drop... Stupid Crabs)

    Toads:
  • Leg Attack (Visual)(doesn't need to incapacitate): Flip toad over. Must be done in a reaction to toad charging Gut Press

    Crabs:
  • Incap Back(Non-visual): Reduced defense (Locks-out Guard ability)
  • Incap Back(Non-visual) (Confirmed with Green only): Green Crab shell becomes an available drop

    Coblyns:
  • Incap Back(Visual): Reduced defense

    Peiste
  • Incap Head(Visual): Locks-out stare attack

    Ram
  • Incap Horns(Visual): reduces damage and knock-back effect of charge
  • Incap Horns(Visual): Ram Horns become an available drop

    Stags
  • Incap Horns(Visual): Haven't confirmed, but I assume this one also reduces damage and knock-back effect as well
  • Incap Horns(Visual): Stag horns become an available drop


These are the ones I know off the top of my head. There are a few that I am still speculating on (including Goblins, humanoid, drake, gnats, ahriman, and birds), and some I have no clue with (sheep, beetles, fly-swarms, wolves). I would like to make a comprehensive list, but it is time consuming, and I just haven't had that kind of time as of late.

On a side note, the trip ability is not just limited to the Toads, it is also the best way to beat the buffalo, but since I usually tanked him, I never was able to follow what people were doing to trip him. If anyone knows the trigger it would be appreciated:). If you can consistantly trip the buffalo, he can't stomp, which means meleers can work him over. It also disables ALL of his abilities while he is down, and unlike the toad, it doesn't make him invincible (not sure on the specifics, but it seems every time I flip a toad, I can't deal a killing blow to it).
#17 Apr 05 2012 at 10:02 AM Rating: Good
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rfolkker wrote:
Perrin, I'm sorry, your statement is in error.


My statement is taken directly from the Devs, maybe it only applies to the Instanced fights? I know what you're saying on the horn, but I've never incapped any of the solable NMs and have recieved multiple drops at a reasonable ratio (usually within 3 kills), then again unlike the Ram the dropped items I track are gear. It makes complete sense to chop off the rams horn to increase the drop rate, but is it neccesary?

I'm in full agreement that if you have the capability most of the NMs are vastly easier with incap, so it doesn't hurt to incap them. I don't like posting on the Lodestone forums but I suppose I should just to get clarification on those mobs or if it's an all encompasing statement.

*EDIT* A few more qoutes... BTW reading the whole thread through it appears the qoute I have in the post abbove was directly relating to the Buffalo and NOT the instanced bosses

Quote:
こんばんは。
Good evening,



Originally Posted by anjely
イフの角を折るとドロップ率が上がると聞いたことがあります。
I heard if you break Ifrit's horn the drop rate increases.


Originally Posted by Amane
ドロップ率の変動は都市伝説じゃないですかねー
I think that was a myth about the drop rate change
ごめんなさい、都市伝説です…
Sorry, that's a myth...

部位損傷の効果は、
For incap effect,

敵を弱体化させる
Weakens the enemy
敵に特殊技を使えなくさせる
Stops the enemy from using special actions/attacks
倒した後に、手に入る素材を変える(損傷部位による)
When defeating the mob the material obtained changes (depends on part you break)


となり、ドロップ率を変動させる効果はありません。
And so it wont affect the drop rate.


But then we have....
Quote:
Among the enemies found throughout Eorzea, there are those with body parts susceptible to damage. Sustaining a certain amount of damage will result in those body parts becoming incapacitated. For example, an aldgoat’s horns may be broken, or a diremite’s stinger lopped off. This is achieved through the use of specific weaponskills that automatically target these body parts whenever they are present. When the body part of an enemy is incapacitated, it will suffer the following effects:

- Weaken the enemy
- Prevent the enemy from using its special attacks
- Influence the type of loot dropped


Now I'm confused again >.<

Edited, Apr 5th 2012 4:17pm by Perrin

Edited, Apr 5th 2012 7:27pm by Perrin
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#18 Apr 05 2012 at 10:13 AM Rating: Good
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But literally in your post you state: •Alters the materials that are obtainable after defeat (depends on the incapacitation)
That statement there literally means that you have to incapacitate to get certain items.

I am not saying that it increases the number of items, I am saying that you *get* the items.

Maybe I am just confused by your comment.

As for the low level NMs, not one of them has an altered drop for gear. Incapacitating them just makes the fight easier. It is only the 5 HNMs that require incapacitation to get the craft item from them. Maybe that is where the confusion comes from.
#19 Apr 05 2012 at 10:20 AM Rating: Good
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rfolkker wrote:
Maybe I am just confused by your comment.


Don't worry, I am too :p

My original statement was in refrence to incaps increasing drop rates, which re-reading everything would allow that statement to co-exist with things like Rams horn.

I think I'm going to go have a few beers and stand on my head an re-read things again... maybe I'll learn Japanese and get to the bottom of this ^.^
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#20 Apr 05 2012 at 10:54 AM Rating: Good
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Perrin, ****** Superhero wrote:
rfolkker wrote:
Maybe I am just confused by your comment.


Don't worry, I am too :p

My original statement was in refrence to incaps increasing drop rates, which re-reading everything would allow that statement to co-exist with things like Rams horn.

I think I'm going to go have a few beers and stand on my head an re-read things again... maybe I'll learn Japanese and get to the bottom of this ^.^



Ok, here's the way I'm reading it.

The question is: can I get the drop? The answer is always no, unless you incapacitate the correct part of the mob.

Once the correct part is incapacitated, ask the question again: Can I get the drop? Now, the answer is yes, but you still only have an x% chance. Further incapacitation does not, however, effect that x% chance.

I hope that makes sense lol



Edited, Apr 5th 2012 10:18am by LebargeX
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#21 Apr 05 2012 at 11:27 AM Rating: Good
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It seems like, there is a set drop rate for an item, but what item that is changes based on what part you break?
#22 Apr 05 2012 at 11:32 AM Rating: Good
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RamseySylph wrote:
It seems like, there is a set drop rate for an item, but what item that is changes based on what part you break?



That sounds to be a part of it as well.
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#23 Apr 05 2012 at 1:10 PM Rating: Good
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So more or less I said the right thing the wrong way with the right/wrong qoutes >.> (sorry, initial post edited)

*EDIT* FYI I still can't read Japanese, but I have found I can stand on my head after drinking. (Using the wall counts right?)

Edited, Apr 5th 2012 7:13pm by Perrin
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#24 Apr 05 2012 at 1:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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Perrin, ****** Superhero wrote:
So more or less I said the right thing the wrong way with the right/wrong qoutes >.> (sorry, initial post edited)

*EDIT* FYI I still can't read Japanese, but I have found I can stand on my head after drinking. (Using the wall counts right?)

Edited, Apr 5th 2012 7:13pm by Perrin



As long as the alcohol stays on the inside of you, that's really all that matters, right???

Smiley: lol
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#25 Apr 06 2012 at 9:54 AM Rating: Good
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Perrin, ****** Superhero wrote:
So more or less I said the right thing the wrong way with the right/wrong qoutes >.> (sorry, initial post edited)

*EDIT* FYI I still can't read Japanese, but I have found I can stand on my head after drinking. (Using the wall counts right?)

Edited, Apr 5th 2012 7:13pm by Perrin


Thanx for the info! I know I can be confusing/confused at times... And I know I can't stand on my head drunk or sober...
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