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FF14 and SLI scalingFollow

#1 Apr 05 2012 at 7:40 PM Rating: Decent
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Just in case anyone was wondering FF14 scales very well in SLI. My test: Turned off SLI and logged into a zone with no Player Characters and logged FPS for a minute between 21-22 FPS (did not move as I was looking to avoid variance). Turned on SLI and logged into the exact same spot and logged fps for a minute 44-45 FPS. Might need to tweak the NVidia FFXIV profile to get the same results though.

I bring this up because in another thread I've noticed it mentioned that SLI / Crossfire Scaling for FF14 is not good which is not correct. I can't comment on Crossfire Scaling but I presume the same is true.

980x @ 4Ghz
2x GTX 580's
12GB RAM

Full Screen
2560x1600
no AA
general drawing quality - 10
background drawing quality - 5
shadow detail standard
texture quality high
texture filtering highest

Test 1 log:
FPS
17
22
21
21
22
21
21
21
22
21

Test 2 log:
FPS
44
45
43
45
44
44
44
44
45
44

SLI Scaling is 100% for two cards for me , side note don't expect good SLI scaling if you are CPU bound
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#2 Apr 05 2012 at 9:00 PM Rating: Decent
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I was thinking it's about time to buy a 2nd GPU, game sits around 20-30 fps most of the time, and was getting tired of it dipping into low 20s/high teens, glad to know it see a decent performance boost.
#3 Apr 06 2012 at 12:41 AM Rating: Default
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Levish wrote:

I bring this up because in another thread I've noticed it mentioned that SLI / Crossfire Scaling for FF14 is not good which is not correct. I can't comment on Crossfire Scaling but I presume the same is true.

And you based all that on standing still for a minute in a deserted area... yeah really a representative test to see how FFXIV scales with CrossFire/SLI. Smiley: disappointed
I'm still on the side (as i have personal experience) of the big number of players who say that the Crystal engine does scale but not very good.
You're more CPU bound then others with a SB processor when it comes to gaming...
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#4 Apr 06 2012 at 2:00 AM Rating: Good
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Levish, do the same test however run from the market wards in Ul'Dah to the Inn or outside from one camp to another. It still scales pretty good, I don't have my numbers anymore or the inclination to retest but if you do it will quiet some folks down.
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#5 Apr 06 2012 at 9:17 AM Rating: Decent
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Levish wrote:
SLI Scaling is 100% for two cards for me , side note don't expect good SLI scaling if you are CPU bound


What exactly did you use to test this?
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#6 Apr 06 2012 at 9:19 AM Rating: Good
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Levish wrote:
SLI Scaling is 100% for two cards for me , side note don't expect good SLI scaling if you are CPU bound


What exactly did you use to test this?


Can you also export your NVidia profile for XIV and post for others? This will allow us to tweak settings more easily to confirm your results.
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#7 Apr 06 2012 at 9:29 AM Rating: Good
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I can say that my own scaling test with dual ati 5870's was around a 30% increase in FPS. Most likely due to a bottleneck in the GPU not being able to handle the resolution of 5760x1080 (I run FFXIV on 3 screens)

My system:

i7 2600k
8gb 2133mhz (overclocked) RAM
60gb SATA II (yeah its old) SSD
dual ati 5870s (2gb editions) Crossfire (both in 16x lanes)
#8 Apr 06 2012 at 10:10 AM Rating: Decent
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Jouhki wrote:
Levish wrote:

I bring this up because in another thread I've noticed it mentioned that SLI / Crossfire Scaling for FF14 is not good which is not correct. I can't comment on Crossfire Scaling but I presume the same is true.

And you based all that on standing still for a minute in a deserted area... yeah really a representative test to see how FFXIV scales with CrossFire/SLI. Smiley: disappointed
I'm still on the side (as i have personal experience) of the big number of players who say that the Crystal engine does scale but not very good.
You're more CPU bound then others with a SB processor when it comes to gaming...


Standing still in a deserted area with high GPU load. Its a very valid test.
I don't have a SB, I have a Gulftown.

FilthMcNasty wrote:
Levish wrote:
SLI Scaling is 100% for two cards for me , side note don't expect good SLI scaling if you are CPU bound


What exactly did you use to test this?


FRAPS - Datalogged for ~60 seconds to CSV

volta1 wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Levish wrote:
SLI Scaling is 100% for two cards for me , side note don't expect good SLI scaling if you are CPU bound


What exactly did you use to test this?


Can you also export your NVidia profile for XIV and post for others? This will allow us to tweak settings more easily to confirm your results.


Would be glad to when I get home

DoctorMog wrote:
I can say that my own scaling test with dual ati 5870's was around a 30% increase in FPS. Most likely due to a bottleneck in the GPU not being able to handle the resolution of 5760x1080 (I run FFXIV on 3 screens)

My system:

i7 2600k
8gb 2133mhz (overclocked) RAM
60gb SATA II (yeah its old) SSD
dual ati 5870s (2gb editions) Crossfire (both in 16x lanes)


I made sure my settings would need to be high enough to show a high gpu load rather than use the default settings, perhaps if you crank up the drawing quality to max the scaling would improve?
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#9 Apr 06 2012 at 11:52 AM Rating: Decent
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Levish wrote:
Jouhki wrote:
Levish wrote:

I bring this up because in another thread I've noticed it mentioned that SLI / Crossfire Scaling for FF14 is not good which is not correct. I can't comment on Crossfire Scaling but I presume the same is true.

And you based all that on standing still for a minute in a deserted area... yeah really a representative test to see how FFXIV scales with CrossFire/SLI. Smiley: disappointed
I'm still on the side (as i have personal experience) of the big number of players who say that the Crystal engine does scale but not very good.
You're more CPU bound then others with a SB processor when it comes to gaming...

Standing still in a deserted area with high GPU load. Its a very valid test.
I don't have a SB, I have a Gulftown.

Exactly, it is well known that a SB processor will completely blow the gulftown out of the water when it comes to gaming, or any general desktop task for that matter. (for 1/5th of the price Smiley: wink )
Besides that i think that 21FPS with a single GTX580 is kinda low to start with.

The test is far from reality valid or not. Who cares how much scaling one can get when standing still in a deserted area...

Sorry but I'm not buying it until the majority of the players can confirm and reproduce >97% scaling every time all the time.

ps.
I stopped trusting FRAPS after it continually reported 236FPS in FFXIV with a single HD5870
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#10 Apr 06 2012 at 1:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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Jouhki wrote:
Exactly, it is well known that a SB processor will completely blow the gulftown out of the water when it comes to gaming, or any general desktop task for that matter. (for 1/5th of the price Smiley: wink )
Besides that i think that 21FPS with a single GTX580 is kinda low to start with.

The test is far from reality valid or not. Who cares how much scaling one can get when standing still in a deserted area...

Sorry but I'm not buying it until the majority of the players can confirm and reproduce >97% scaling every time all the time.

ps. I stopped trusting FRAPS after it continually reported 236FPS in FFXIV with a single HD5870


I'm not asking anyone to buy anything, my statement is that if you are wondering if FF14 scales well in SLI, yes it does and at high/max settings it scales at 100% improvement levels which is ideal. It does not scale at "over 97% everytime, all the time" unless you use very high / max settings.

The test is extremely valid because it minimizes non controllable variances, something like random person running across and spamming something. When doing something like this you want to know what your FPS are for the same set of circumstances before and after the change. For giggles I'll do another run through a heavily populated area and just put up averages, Ul'Dah market place sufficient?

What I am curious about is how FF14 would scale in Tri-SLI or Tri/Quad Crossfire and would there be any stuttering present, unfortunately I am not able to answer my own question.

Don't worry, I didn't buy the 980x at retail, I bought it recently as I hoped to breathe a bit more lift into my s1366 system as Ivy-Bridge wasn't out yet and I wasn't looking to upgrade Sandy as I didn't see it as a worthwhile investment over my current system. Fewer PCI-e lanes please see here for a concrete example of why I do not want to move to Sandy Bridge- http://www.tweaktown.com/articles/4240/z68_vs_x58_which_is_the_better_gaming_platform/index10.html

The IPC and overall efficiency of the Sandy versus my Gulftown is irrelevant in this thread (I am aware of it), if you care so much I'll humor you with a follow up thread entitled FF14 and Processor Power scaling although its fairly moot, most who know about MMO's know you can't have enough processing power. Posting something like that is a utter waste of time.


That being said 10-20% IPC/Processing improvement amounts to 1-2 FPS at 22FPS or 2-4 FPS at 40FPS, adding a 2nd GTX580 in SLI in my test has shown a 22FPS gain at 22FPS or 40FPS at 40FPS (a tangible and worthwhile improvement).

*edits for clarifications and spelling*

Edited, Apr 6th 2012 4:17pm by Levish

Edited, Apr 6th 2012 4:18pm by Levish
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#11 Apr 06 2012 at 7:08 PM Rating: Good
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Run in Ul'Dah from the wall right outside the Aetheryte into the room with the Aetheryte and back 2x each run
Please note that as I mentioned earlier this is not a valid test due to the variances in each run, for example what I observed is the SLI runs ended up rendering PC's on both runs, while the Non-SLI runs did not render any PC's (they were there Dotted on the MiniMaps, just not displayed), we are talking 15+ PC's on screen for the SLI runs which I believe is what is causing the negative differences.

S2= SLI Run 2 post tweaks
NS2= No SLI run 2 same tweaks
S= SLI Run 1 no tweaks
NS= No SLI Run 1 no tweaks
 
S2    NS2        %      S      NS	% 
50	32	56.3%	51	27	88.9% 
46	30	53.3%	47	27	74.1% 
26	35	-25.7%	41	32	28.1% 
52	35	48.6%	57	35	62.9% 
59	33	78.8%	58	34	70.6% 
59	33	78.8%	57	33	72.7% 
52	32	62.5%	52	34	52.9% 
32	34	-5.9%	58	33	75.8% 
56	33	69.7%	56	35	60.0% 
57	33	72.7%	57	35	62.9% 
56	31	80.6%	59	33	78.8% 
47	29	62.1%	59	32	84.4% 
50	28	78.6%	53	28	89.3% 
49	32	53.1%	49	29	69.0% 
56	38	47.4%	56	33	69.7% 
58	39	48.7%	45	38	18.4% 
60	40	50.0%	23	41	-43.9% 
56	42	33.3%	48	41	17.1% 
60	39	53.8%	60	43	39.5% 
60	31	93.5%	59	39	51.3% 
55	35	57.1%	43	35	22.9% 
46	34	35.3%	46	35	31.4% 
52	33	57.6%	32	36	-11.1% 
50	32	56.3%	48	35	37.1% 
49	30	63.3%	49	34	44.1% 
48	28	71.4%	46	33	39.4% 
44	33	33.3%	44	30	46.7% 
40	32	25.0%	36	32	12.5% 
50	32	56.3%	43	31	38.7% 
49	31	58.1%	46	30	53.3% 
53	30	76.7%	54	33	63.6% 
54	30	80.0%	57	31	83.9% 
51	29	75.9%	57	30	90.0% 
46	31	48.4%	51	30	70.0% 
58	31	87.1%	50	31	61.3% 
57	29	96.6%	54	30	80.0% 
57	29	96.6%	58	29	100.0% 
53	33	60.6%	52	30	73.3% 
49	34	44.1%	45	31	45.2% 
56	31	80.6%	57	37	54.1% 
56	32	75.0%	59	35	68.6% 
51	31	64.5%	58	33	75.8% 
56	32	75.0%	51	33	54.5% 
56	33	69.7%	59	33	78.8% 
52	31	67.7%	55	35	57.1% 
56	29	93.1%	59	34	73.5% 
55	28	96.4%	58	32	81.3% 
51	26	96.2%	54	31	74.2% 
42	29	44.8%	47	27	74.1% 
19	34	-44.1%	53	28	89.3% 
43	37	16.2%	50	32	56.3% 
49	38	28.9%	24	38	-36.8% 
24	40	-40.0%	48	39	23.1% 
46	37	24.3%	52	41	26.8% 
44	33	33.3%	53	41	29.3% 
23	33	-30.3%	37	39	-5.1% 
38	33	15.2%	47	34	38.2% 
49	33	48.5%	45	37	21.6% 
48	32	50.0%	50	37	35.1% 
49	31	58.1%	49	37	32.4% 

Averages:
SLI2 49.41666667
NoSLI2 32.63333333
Diff 51.4%
SLI 50.35
NoSLI 33.68333333
Diff 49.5%

Max Differences:
SLI2 +96%
SLI +100%

MinFPSDifferences
SLI2 -44.1%
SLI -43.9%

The somewhat corrected numbers (dropped all figures that resulted in a -% FPS difference)
AVG 55-60%
Min 12-15%

Edited, Apr 6th 2012 9:13pm by Levish
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#12 Apr 06 2012 at 8:36 PM Rating: Decent
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Levish wrote:
Standing still in a deserted area with high GPU load.


confusedjackiechan.jpg

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Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#13 Apr 07 2012 at 7:31 AM Rating: Decent
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Graphics settings were cranked a bit higher than i would usually use to make sure the game wasn't sitting above 60FPS as measuring above that is not possible with FRAPS if the game caps FPS at 60

Deserted as in no player characters to avoid inconsistency between runs measured. If you look at the FPS in the Ul'Dah run, they aren't consistant making the SLI / Non-SLI measurements not comparable. This coupled with the Non-SLI runs not even rendering most PC's while the SLI runs were rendering a very significant number of PC's.

Sitting in the Forrest in Gridania resulted in a variance of 1 FPS where the Ul'Dah test varied by 20-30FPS at any point with no direct correlation which is why I insisted that my initial test was valid and the 2nd one while representative of a snapshot of actual playing does little to compare SLI scaling (controlled environment in testing and all that).
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#14 Apr 07 2012 at 1:15 PM Rating: Decent
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Pointless tests are pointless. No one will be impressed by 100% SLI scaling if the only time it works is when they are standing alone in a deserted area. You can't just come out and say that XIV has 100% SLI scaling when it has 0 practical use. People want to know what kind of scaling they get when **** flies all over the screen. That is when you want your GPUs to work optimally.
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HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#15 Apr 07 2012 at 1:27 PM Rating: Decent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Pointless tests are pointless. No one will be impressed by 100% SLI scaling if the only time it works is when they are standing alone in a deserted area. You can't just come out and say that XIV has 100% SLI scaling when it has 0 practical use. People want to know what kind of scaling they get when sh*t flies all over the screen. That is when you want your GPUs to work optimally.


The pointless test is the one in Ul'Dah because of the lack of repeatability, tests with and without SLI don't have the same number of on screen objects and effects. In a place with some non-player characters (i.e. the Gridania Carpenter's area) I get similarly high scaling to the Gridania Forest.

When testing, if its not a controlled environment you cannot say that your results are conclusive, this is quite literally why repeatable tests such as empty areas or areas with only NPC's in them are better for something like validating SLI scaling (because run 1 with SLI and run 2 without SLI will have the same objects rendered).
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#16 Apr 07 2012 at 3:38 PM Rating: Good
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I think you're missing the point which is that it doesn't matter. To be honest, both tests are pointless. You're testing conditions that you can recreate and keep consistent for the sake of the scientific method, but they're also results no one really cares about. No one wants to know that their SLI is getting near 100% scaling when they're doing activities in game that they wouldn't normally do.

Most people are either in a highly congested(relatively) area if they're standing still, they're moving through an area or they are fighting mobs. The variables in your testing don't represent what players will be doing the majority of their time spent playing the game, much less the majority of the time spent playing where they actually care about their performance.

It's like saying that a car gets 40 mpg but only doing your testing on a straight, flat stretch of road. That's great and all, but most people drive in cities with a lot of stop and go, turns and hills to maneuver. No one is suggesting that testing on varied terrain will produce more consistent results, but since most of us probably do more driving in this type of terrain it's really the information we'd care most about. Would you tune your car to perform best on straight, flat roads if you're going to be doing most of your driving in different conditions?

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HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#17 Apr 07 2012 at 7:56 PM Rating: Decent
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Sure, I get that, what you presume though is the tune for non flat roads would be different than curvy / mountain roads.

If you get +10% MPG switching to a leaner AF ratio at light load on a straight road, the same is true on a curvy road but to put the analogy into focus the Ul'Dah test is comparing two different stretches of "curvy road" one is fairly free of traffic and another has some extra vehicles on it making your MPG end up lower than it could be if they were not there.

In test one, SLI, you have the town and 15-20 player characters rendered plus all their related animations and still get on average 50% higher FPS, while in test two, single card you have the town and 3 player characters rendered.

Edited, Apr 7th 2012 9:57pm by Levish
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#18 Apr 08 2012 at 4:18 AM Rating: Decent
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Wat? Maybe I should word this differently so you'll understand my point. If XIV were a road, it would be a mix of loose gravel and mud. Your performance is already less than what it should be regardless of how you tune your GPU. You get less performance than you should just using one GPU.

Getting a 50% increase for twice the price is better how? Your test removes variance, but doesn't apply to average everyday gameplay so why bother?

Edited, Apr 8th 2012 6:18am by FilthMcNasty
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#19 Apr 08 2012 at 7:28 AM Rating: Decent
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Deleted: Pointless attack.


Edited, Apr 8th 2012 9:30am by Rinsui
#20 May 01 2012 at 5:48 PM Rating: Decent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
I think you're missing the point which is that it doesn't matter. To be honest, both tests are pointless. You're testing conditions that you can recreate and keep consistent for the sake of the scientific method, but they're also results no one really cares about.


Sorry for bringing back a post almost 1 month old but, well, I do care about it... and whatever you say, I understand that while the FPS values shown by Levish won't always be the same depending on what is happening in the game, it still gives a good idea of how well SLI perform.

Sure, it is not 100% increase in performance, but if it is 50% on average, it is good enough for me. (When you think about it, 100% performance increase would actually be impossible on SLI anyway.)

Edited, May 1st 2012 7:50pm by Luderic

Edited, May 1st 2012 7:52pm by Luderic
#21 May 01 2012 at 5:54 PM Rating: Decent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Getting a 50% increase for twice the price is better how? Y


I would say it's pretty much the same as paying 100% more to get a GTX 580 instead of a GTX 560... you pay almost twice the price, but don't get twice better perfomances
#22 May 02 2012 at 10:01 AM Rating: Decent
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Luderic wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
I think you're missing the point which is that it doesn't matter. To be honest, both tests are pointless. You're testing conditions that you can recreate and keep consistent for the sake of the scientific method, but they're also results no one really cares about.


Sorry for bringing back a post almost 1 month old but, well, I do care about it... and whatever you say, I understand that while the FPS values shown by Levish won't always be the same depending on what is happening in the game, it still gives a good idea of how well SLI perform.

Sure, it is not 100% increase in performance, but if it is 50% on average, it is good enough for me. (When you think about it, 100% performance increase would actually be impossible on SLI anyway.)


I'm not saying that no one should care, I'm saying that the test doesn't present realistic results. It does not give a good idea of how well SLI will perform because people who are actually playing the game are not standing out in a field all alone. Do you think people would get a good idea of how well FFXIV would perform if the benchmark test was 3 minutes of a player standing all alone in a field?

Depending on the game you play and what settings you prefer, the extra money for the 580 will mean the difference between moderate FPS at normal settings and great FPS at high settings.
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#23 May 02 2012 at 10:33 AM Rating: Decent
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I frequently find that people ignore what I post in a reply.

I would agree with you except there were significant gains even in "realistic situations", I re-ran the benchmark in Ul'dah at the peak of activity during my play time. The problem with this scenario (which I've mentioned over and over) is that it does not account for a controlled test with the same images rendered under SLI and Non-SLI modes and this is why the test standing alone in the field is more relevant for testing scaling because there were no variances in what is on screent.

In my second test in Ul'Dah with lots of random on screen player characters the SLI runs rendered significantly more onscreen than the non-SLI runs which accounts from the lowering of the oberserved scaling from 90-100% to 50-65%. There is still a measured gain.

The lowest average gain you can expect presuming you are GPU constrained is approximately 50-65% (by this I mean you are experiencing over 90% single GPU load before enabling SLI or Crossfire). The highest gain you can expect under ideal circumstances is approximately 90-100% the easiest way I've found to make sure this is the case is to increase the FFXIV config setting for "general drawing quality".

And this is from in game measurements not FF14 benchmark results.

Edited, May 2nd 2012 12:34pm by Levish
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#24 May 02 2012 at 1:43 PM Rating: Decent
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Levish wrote:
I frequently find that people ignore what I post in a reply.


I wasn't ignoring your reply, but the initial comment I made was in response to the first post and not a reply. You posted your first test results, I questioned them, you responded and then I disagreed with your statement about near 100% scaling. The test you based the statement "SLI scaling is 100%" isn't representative of anything the average player would experience if they are actually playing the game so I am curious why it would be used to draw any conclusion about performance or even for the sake of comparison. Just doesn't make sense.

Levish wrote:
And this is from in game measurements not FF14 benchmark results.


I brought up the benchmark to prove a point. The XIV bench is a joke so I didn't mean it literally, just as a general example. A benchmark is supposed to be a measure of performance based on typical use. Standing alone in a field is not typical use. Maybe I'm being silly thinking that other people think the way I do when it comes to measuring performance, but I want to know how well it performs on things like the Ifrit battle. I would measure something that is graphically intense and is meant to be visually stimulating, and not just a picnic in the countryside. /shrug

Edited, May 2nd 2012 3:44pm by FilthMcNasty
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
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