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More involved combat tp gain, difficulty, movement.Follow

#1 Apr 23 2012 at 5:24 PM Rating: Decent
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I feel that the combat in FFXIV would be a lot more fun if combat was more intricate. If some how SE could make tp gain faster giving the player a constant action or option when in combat would be the first thing to consider. Down time in between skills is an issue for me. So the cool downs should also be shortened. This could be counter balanced by giving mobs more health and maybe making them more difficult so that the increase of tp would be more valuable and needed. This would encourage more tp management and therefore a deeper system mechanic. I like the strategic placement while on the battlefield in relation to classes and feel it adds great depth to the game. I also like the combo system and would like to see more combos and maybe skill chains in the future encouraging team work and strategic thinking when approaching a mob.

An example of this would be in the Fighting game genre where meter management is detrimental to the successful outcome of the match. If you burn through your meter you loose both offensive and defensive options.

Another aspect of combat that I feel would greatly increase the fun factor of combat in FFXIV would be the need to dodge enemy attacks and patterns specifically boss fights. A good example of this could be if a mob has an aoe that at the last second showed a shadow of were the objects would strike you would have to move out of the way or be hit with a negative status effect and damage. This would keep players on their toes and make combat that much more interesting.

I feel that FFXIV is on the right path for success and took a lot of good things about MMORPG's and made them more involved such as the crafting. The storyline of FFXIV in my opinion feels more like a traditional final fantasy game than any of the current Final Fantasies that have been released since Final Fantasy X. The only thing I find lacking is involved combat. I believe that this changes can be made while keeping the traditional feel of the series and without loosing FFXIV original identity.

Please give me your feed back and let SE know if you would like to see these changes all or any in FFXIV. Once I have enough support both pro/against I will link this post to the suggestion forums for SE to look over.

Thank you for your time
Tsubaki Kuranai (Ragnarok)

Edited, Apr 23rd 2012 7:27pm by Schmidtnurface

Edited, Apr 23rd 2012 8:11pm by Schmidtnurface
#2 Apr 23 2012 at 5:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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Most of the things you mention as shortfalls aren't the case in end-game full parties (TP gain, positioning, dodging boss weaponskills, etc.) and I agree that more engaging gameplay in the early levels would help the overall appeal to new players. I am crossing my fingers that SE is working on this, but there's so much in the development backlog, I can see why they chose to make leveling up a cakewalk and build high-end content. They need to keep the current player base engaged or all is lost.

My advice to you would be to go through the leve grind with a buddy or two, and I would bet you'll be pleasantly surprised with the battle mechanics you encounter at cap.
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#3 Apr 23 2012 at 6:14 PM Rating: Decent
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For sure I will do that. I watched a lot of endgame footage and though the gameplay is more involved I feel there is a lot of downtime between waiting for cooldowns and imo this is probably the biggest issue out of them all. I also watched a video of the ifrit fight and the battle was more about standing still in a certain place versus actively dodging attacks. If you force the player to constantly being aware of patterns and their surroundings they will in return be more involved instead of sitting there auto attacking waiting for cooldowns.

I suppose what I am getting at is that combat should feel like combat and a seemless experience versus wait and hit buttons.

Edited, Apr 23rd 2012 8:15pm by Schmidtnurface
#4 Apr 23 2012 at 6:22 PM Rating: Excellent
32 posts
On a later note I feel that SE doesnt quite understand this because of the past few games they made I can see they are trying to make combat more cinematic but loosing out on involved gameplay. Such as FFXII and FFXIII. This game suffers as well imo. There are ways to make turned based RPG's and MMORGP's feel more involved without loosing the internal structure of the game itself.

Good example of old school RPG's that could be used as a reference when considering modernizing JRPG turned based combat would be.
Chrono Cross
Legend of Dragoon
Mario RPG
Parasite EVE I (2 was garbage)
Xenogears (Blade was also garbage)
Persona
Chrono Trigger
etc.

My point being all these games made a traditional turn based combat system more involved with timing and button presses without loosing the traditional turned based style on the other hand FFXII and FFXIII have approached the solution of modernizing JRPG's in the wrong way and thus alienating the original player base.

How does this relate to FFXIV as an MMORPG? Well I feel that a lot of the "Standards" of modern day MMORPG's are lacking like my above argument but at the same time I feel that FFXIV should have its own identity through storyline, classes, art, music, combat, etc. By changing a few battle mechanics you do not alienate or alter the game significantly enough to discourage the original player base from playing the game but encourage growth and innovation.

Edited, Apr 23rd 2012 8:29pm by Schmidtnurface
#5 Apr 23 2012 at 8:13 PM Rating: Good
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Schmidtnurface wrote:
For sure I will do that. I watched a lot of endgame footage and though the gameplay is more involved I feel there is a lot of downtime between waiting for cooldowns and imo this is probably the biggest issue out of them all. I also watched a video of the ifrit fight and the battle was more about standing still in a certain place versus actively dodging attacks. If you force the player to constantly being aware of patterns and their surroundings they will in return be more involved instead of sitting there auto attacking waiting for cooldowns.

I suppose what I am getting at is that combat should feel like combat and a seemless experience versus wait and hit buttons.

Edited, Apr 23rd 2012 8:15pm by Schmidtnurface


I'm just curious, what job was the video capper playing? I'm betting it was a DoM. Most if not all of the footage I've seen of end game combat has all been capped by a person playing a DoM class. IF you ever see footage of end game combat capped by something other than DoM or maybe tank, I'm sure you'll see that they have included everything you've mentioned that you want them to include. As an example, while playing a non ranged DD class like monk or lancer during ifrit (hard mode) battle, you really don't have time to just stand there and wait for your cool downs to wind down. You're busy paying attention to the attack pattern of ifrit and waiting to see what special attack he uses. Ifrit battle is all about his attack pattern and changing what you are doing based on what he throws at you next. Moogle is a bit different. It's way more hectic to deal with than ifrit is. It's nice and easy for the first half of the battle, but then all **** breaks loose and you have ten different things you have to pay attention to. I'm sure you'll be pleasantly surprised when you get there.
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#6 Apr 23 2012 at 10:18 PM Rating: Decent
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I watched monk/pugilist game play were ironically they fought moogle, I will link the video for you. Before I picked up the game I watched a lot of video for the monk/pugilist class because its going to be my class of choice. I also wanted to convince my friend to give the game a shot but he also stated that the game looked very slow and didnt even want to bother with it after he attempted to play FFXI years ago. (I feel that though I loved FFXI for what it was he was very unimpressed by it and has a horrible mindset that FFXIV is no different which couldnt be farther from the truth)

The video I watched was this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ErQou9sgDE
There is a waiting for cool downs. Which is my problem with the combat system. If they decreased the cool downs I think that the main problem with the system would be solved.

Here is an ifrit video I watched
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F85vb-jeD6c&feature=fvsr

In this you get commentary and again a lot of standing around.
#7 Apr 23 2012 at 11:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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Schmidtnurface wrote:
The video I watched was this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ErQou9sgDE
There is a waiting for cool downs. Which is my problem with the combat system. If they decreased the cool downs I think that the main problem with the system would be solved.


Geez, I almost had a seizure with all the flashing lights and bursting particle effects in that video. I seriously don't think that half a second went by in that 24 minute clip without a sizable explosion occurring on the target! (* _ * )

More on topic, though, button-spam is not the answer to interesting combat; button-spam makes for tedious combat. We used to have a battle system that required the player to ceaselessly hit keys and the majority hated it so much that SE altered the pace of battles. It may be fun for ten or fifteen minutes but, after about an hour, most people have had enough with it... oh, kind of like explosions.


Edited, Apr 24th 2012 1:09am by KaneKitty
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#8 Apr 23 2012 at 11:48 PM Rating: Decent
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Let's get the stamina bar back and remove auto attack!!!
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#9 Apr 24 2012 at 2:35 AM Rating: Decent
32 posts
What is with my computer....

Edited, Apr 24th 2012 4:36am by Schmidtnurface
#10 Apr 24 2012 at 2:35 AM Rating: Decent
32 posts
Sorry didnt mean to post


Edited, Apr 24th 2012 4:36am by Schmidtnurface
#11 Apr 24 2012 at 2:35 AM Rating: Decent
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a billion times.. =(

Edited, Apr 24th 2012 4:36am by Schmidtnurface
#12 Apr 24 2012 at 2:35 AM Rating: Decent
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Im not talking about button spam. But I watched high lvl play were a dude sat with 4-5 secondes waiting for cooldowns and imo that is wasted time. P.S. that is like saying Marvel Vs. Capcom 1-3 is easy and brainless because you hit 8k buttons a minute. Strategy and thinking with faster paced combat is not brainless it requires interaction (not being lazy) and thought to do correctly.
#13 Apr 24 2012 at 2:46 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Strategy and thinking with faster paced combat is not brainless it requires interaction (not being lazy) and thought to do correctly.

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#14 Apr 24 2012 at 3:54 AM Rating: Decent
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deronguerra wrote:
Let's get the stamina bar back and remove auto attack!!!


I would resub if they did that. Auto attack is the major thing that ran me off I HATE the way it feels in FFXIV. Other games make Auto attack feel fluid FFXIV makes it feel terrible.
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#15 Apr 24 2012 at 4:36 AM Rating: Decent
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I've never been able to understand why people kept saying cool downs on the stamina bar was wasted time. With auto-attack you have weapon delay, which is the same as the cool downs in terms of logic, except with the stamina bar you actually had full control. That argument seems illogical. If anything, all it needed was maybe a little rehash to make the stamina bar regen faster or add haste (since it's been in the game for a long time, some bombs have it) which again, is the same basics to auto-attack.

Personally I loved the stamina bar. It's the main reason I left FFXI for FFXIV but that was my personal liking of course.
#16 Apr 24 2012 at 10:29 AM Rating: Good
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KaozMarquiz wrote:
Personally I loved the stamina bar. It's the main reason I left FFXI for FFXIV but that was my personal liking of course.


While I wasn't a huge fan of the stamina bar, I wouldn't really mind if they kept it in the game. My major problem with the battle system is how plodding and disconnected it felt. I hated watching my stamina deplete before I accomplished the action; it bothered me that an enemy's HP dropped to zero before I saw whether my attack even hit them; it was awkward to swipe my wand through the air and not witness a spell manifest until several seconds later.

Like any good system in a game - be it a platformer, a side-scroller, an action RPG, or anything else - it needs to be fluid and responsive above anything else. If SE could manage these traits, then just about any battle system would be pleasing.
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"... he called to himself a wizard, named Gallery, hoping by this means to escape the paying of the fifteen hundred crowns..." (Machen 15)

"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#17 Apr 24 2012 at 12:38 PM Rating: Good
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Sad to say the mobs still die before you see the animations of your attacks. It gets annoying to see that while leveling in Natalan for 6 hours of hitting at nothingness.
#18 Apr 24 2012 at 12:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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KaozMarquiz wrote:
Sad to say the mobs still die before you see the animations of your attacks. It gets annoying to see that while leveling in Natalan for 6 hours of hitting at nothingness.


It's a limitation of the current engine, unfortunately. Yoshi had offered to change it so that the animations looked right, but that would have involved making the game less responsive to your commands and increasing the lag there. Needless to say, the people thought that would have been worse.
#19 Apr 29 2012 at 1:55 PM Rating: Good
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I enjoyed and saw potential in the alpha power gauge system. I didn't like the stamina system in it's XIV form. They tried to make a hybrid of hotkey cooldowns and a stamina system and it didn't work. Why not?

1.Too many button presses to initiate a small selection of redundant commands. That works well in hack and slash games. But in an mmo far more tactical depth is expected.

2.It needed a queue system similar to XIII but not identical. It would have been cool if you could queue up 3-5 commands that would fire off sequentially and auto repeated until you selected a different queue. Think of it like the mortal kombat finisher moves. The 0-9 keys would be your queue selectors. And each command would have it's own tp cost represented in the queue. XIII was similar to the Legend of Legaia game. It need confirmation for every round of combat with no sequential queues. Of course there would have to be tp modification to make it flow properly.

3.The whole combat system would need to be based around the queue system. Including the magic system. Each magic bar would have it's corresponding mp cost represented in command bars.

There would be an option for manual selection for those times or people who want to micromanage everything.
Imo action gauge>a different stamina system>auto attack>XIV old stamina system if latency or repsonsiveness isn't horrible. Others have their own opinions ;p.

Edited, Apr 29th 2012 3:56pm by sandpark
#20 Apr 30 2012 at 1:28 AM Rating: Decent
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i hate to bring swtor into this, but I'm going to. I preferred the non-auto combat in XIV, even though it had its issues. One (of the only) things i like about swtor is the combat, which doesn't use auto-attack. Every class has a basic spammable attack that uses no resources.

Its really not that different than what XIV had, replacing the awkward stamina system with a standard global cooldown; which means that unlike in XIV, you're mostly using abilities while sparingly using basic attacks to save or build resources.
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