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Job switching dungeon tacticsFollow

#1 Apr 27 2012 at 3:08 AM Rating: Decent
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So. As I wrote something positive in a post the day before yesterday (my good deed for the month), I am now free to do what I am best at. Start fire.

There is a heated discussion on the main forums about whether job-switching should be restricted more (e.g., in dungeons;
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/43037-Prohibit-class-job-changes-inside-dungeons ), and I'd like to hear the opinions
of those who are on the fence on this matter. Right now, it is possible to enter a dungeon as one class/job, and switch to an new
setup for every encounter. A boss has strong AOE attacks? - no problem! Have 6 party members switch to Archer, and one WHM
heals the PLD. The next boss spawns hordes of lesser trash? - no problem, have your 6 Archers switch to WAR and go on a killing
rampage. A room full of annoying timesinks? Switch to 6 Mages and Sleep-ga your way past.


About half of the people argue that this is the reward for persistence: leveling up gives you multiple jobs to use in any situation,
and it is just natural that those who play more should have an easier time clearing the content. A strong point is also that without
the ability to switch, some jobs would be outright ignored, because their contribution to a dungeon would be too low. Also, it increases
the longevity of the game because to be a perfect all-rounder, you have to level and collect all the equipment for all classes.


The other half argues that it takes away from strategic complexity, since you can always choose the "perfect" solution for every
encounter without having to weigh the rough with the smooth of each possible (fixed) setup - similar to the effect of gearswaps
in FFXI. Also, newcomers will either have to level up and gear a lot of jobs they have no interest in playing, or they will be left
behind by the established majority. Most of all however, people will not be able to consistently play their chosen role: A "monk
at heart", who started the game to punch da things until 'em bleeds will find himself forced to be ye haughty pussymage for half
of his in-game career, and our beloved whitemage dramaqueen will sometimes have to switch saber for satin and dismember
a few pink cutesy bunnies herself.


What do you guys think? Is the freedom FFXIV provides your min-maxing dream, a logical reward for your hard work, or is it just
an euphemism for countless hours of doing jobs that simply don't fit the way you imagined your character?


Edited, Apr 27th 2012 5:24am by Rinsui
#2 Apr 27 2012 at 3:13 AM Rating: Good
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I dislike it. It hasn't affected me yet but I can see how this can be a problem down the line where you are required to have more than one class available to get dungeon invites. I think the devs said there will be dungeons restricted in version 2.0 but non restricted ones will also be present.
#3 Apr 27 2012 at 4:19 AM Rating: Excellent
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I'd rather see people restricted to one class while playing through difficult content, for a few reasons reasons.

In a game full of classes I'd rather see the choices you pick have pros and cons, rather than the best group being one that can switch enough to be optimal for absolutely everything in the area. For example, should I bring more of x to better deal with the regular enemies, or more y to deal with the boss (using enemies and bosses is only an example, it could be applied to anything during content that would be optimal with different party structure)? Questions like this are pointless if you can just all be x for the enemies and switch to y afterwards. Being able to switch on a whim makes choice almost pointless, which is an idea I find rather boring.

For another thing, it's an extremely large reward for people who play every class. One who plays every class already gets the added benefit that they can switch to whatever they want before any given task, which I think is already quite substantial (though a rightful reward), but to allow that person to also switch to whatever they want during any given task means that one who specializes will always be inferior to one who branches out. For those who enjoy specific roles this could be seen as a turn off because to perform at an optimal level may very well require class switching (especially as the game matures and people figure out the most efficient ways to clear content), which may require both leveling up and playing multiple classes that the player is uninterested in. If class switching is available and useful, it can be the difference between a player being thought of as a "great tank" to a "limited player," due to the fact that others can tank and play whatever else they want to during any given content.

I'm not completely against the idea of versatility, but if I'm going to play a game that is class based I'd prefer that my class choice mean something.

Edited, Apr 27th 2012 6:24am by Susanoh
#4 Apr 27 2012 at 4:41 AM Rating: Good
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ow yellow text burning my eyes.



should be able to switch wherever.
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#5 Apr 27 2012 at 6:10 AM Rating: Default
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The back of my box says I can switch whenever. Just saying.

Personally; The people are just looking for something to complain about. Yoshi has already stated as has a rep that they are thinking of content for 2.0 where their will be restrictions in place but all current dungeons will not be subject to that. It's not an easy choice and goes against the entire backbone of the job system.
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#6 Apr 27 2012 at 6:56 AM Rating: Good
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Elionara wrote:
The back of my box says I can switch whenever. Just saying.

Personally; The people are just looking for something to complain about. Yoshi has already stated as has a rep that they are thinking of content for 2.0 where their will be restrictions in place but all current dungeons will not be subject to that. It's not an easy choice and goes against the entire backbone of the job system.


Back of the box? Who the **** cares what the back of the box says, we all know this game is and has undergone major changes.
#7 Apr 27 2012 at 7:29 AM Rating: Default
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kyara10 wrote:
Elionara wrote:
The back of my box says I can switch whenever. Just saying.

Personally; The people are just looking for something to complain about. Yoshi has already stated as has a rep that they are thinking of content for 2.0 where their will be restrictions in place but all current dungeons will not be subject to that. It's not an easy choice and goes against the entire backbone of the job system.


Back of the box? Who the **** cares what the back of the box says, we all know this game is and has undergone major changes.


Because it's still on the main site. Because it's still a mechanic in the current game that as along as you don't have enmity you can change jobs?

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/43037-Prohibit-class-job-changes-inside-dungeons?p=665776&viewfull=1#post665776
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Like Final Fantasy XI, the game specs will be extremely high for the time, but in about 5 years, an average machine can run it on max settings with little to no issues. Tanaka also expressed interest in making a benchmark program available.

FilthMcNasty wrote:
I endorse this thread.
#8 Apr 27 2012 at 8:22 AM Rating: Excellent
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Point is if back of the box touted Leves as main central content you wouldn't be making that argument. What's on the back of the box is null now. What's on the main site has been changing with each and every update so thats moot. Restricting job changing isn't a bad thing. I don't have a problem with it until people make it a problem though. Unlike you, I don't have time or desire to take every job to 50 and if that restricts my usability in dungeons then f it, I vote for restrictions in spite of what he box says. It's not like they'll be restricting you everywhere else.
#9Elionara, Posted: Apr 27 2012 at 9:21 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) If you don't have time get a friend to help you? That's why we play these games; to make "friends". If someone asks me nicely I will PL them for free, 1-40 takes 6 hours. If you can't devote a weekend to 1 job; than that's your choice. If people only want to play one job while they play, that's their choice.
#10 Apr 27 2012 at 9:31 AM Rating: Good
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I dot need you to get me 50s and this has nothing to do with me having a hard time doing so. Youre just reinforcing what I'm saying. Instead of saying you don't need to level all your jobs to enjoy the content, you're essentially saying its my fault for not leveling everything. What if I only enjoy playing a single class? It's funny too that you then head on to xivpads and call me a ****** for voicing my opinion. In the end I don't care what Yoshida does I'll live by any decision, it's his game, but you're sure getting a little butthurt by anyone voicing what they think. At least I can see the perks and cons of both systems but you're too jaded to see that.

And for the record my only argument was that the box and what's on it doesn't matter any more. That's it. The rest was just me thinking and I don't care nearly enough about your precious game to try and affect change. I haven't left a single feedback on any topic. I just play because a game for me is a game. Lol @ your attempt at sympathy on xivpads, very mature ;).

Edited, Apr 27th 2012 11:44am by kyara10
#11 Apr 27 2012 at 9:50 AM Rating: Good
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Well, dungeons, we use this tactic. Make a setup for the first part of the fight, switch it for the second type. If we couldn't switch jobs on the fly, what's the point of letting us switch outside our inns at all?

On the other hand, I don't believe people should change jobs while in the same battle. That takes it way too far. Primal battles, for example. But I don't see a problem with switching while idle or between fights.

For people who don't have x or y job available, we make do with what we have. It feels strangely like playing XIII's job system where some people are efficient at certain roles... only managing 8 instead of 3. Arg.

Edited, Apr 27th 2012 8:52am by UltKnightGrover
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#12Elionara, Posted: Apr 27 2012 at 9:56 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I don't need or want sympathy. If you want mine you can find it in the dictionary between sh*t and syphilis.
#13 Apr 27 2012 at 10:43 AM Rating: Good
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Elionara, we understand that you like this mechanic, although some
posts are a little on the emotional side. I guess most of it boils down
to personal preference, although there is one point I can not agree on
with you. You said that it's so easy to level a job, that not wanting to
do it is no argument. You may even be right about that (if, that is, you
are o.k. with reducting the leveling voyage to a mere "nuisance"). But
what about people who want to be "the mage" or "the warrior" or "the
sneaky thief", not the 33%mage33%warrior33%thief? You know, like,
playing your chosen role in a party and sticking to it because that's
your thing? GTFU and play another game 'cause there's so many?
#14 Apr 27 2012 at 11:09 AM Rating: Default
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Rinsui wrote:
Elionara, we understand that you like this mechanic, although some
posts are a little on the emotional side. I guess most of it boils down
to personal preference, although there is one point I can not agree on
with you. You said that it's so easy to level a job, that not wanting to
do it is no argument. You may even be right about that (if, that is, you
are o.k. with reducting the leveling voyage to a mere "nuisance"). But
what about people who want to be "the mage" or "the warrior" or "the
sneaky thief", not the 33%mage33%warrior33%thief? You know, like,
playing your chosen role in a party and sticking to it because that's
your thing? GTFU and play another game 'cause there's so many?


Truthfully I would prefer to be Paladin. 100% of the time. As of right now I can't so I made the choice to level all jobs and learn them all properly so if the situation arises and someone comes along that has only one job I can be that person to switch off and let someone with only one job join our party. All the dungeons and fights can be done safely with any array of jobs (unless it's all just one ^.~).

I think it comes down to the fact that when you run a dungeon you should expect to have X job leveled most of the time. It's like that in dam near every other mmo. To be different sure FFXIV can restrict jobs.

Here's the problem with that:
If you weren't getting invites before because you "DIDN'T" have the job leveled; by restricting job changes what's going to change? You're still not leveled; you still don't have that job, you still won't get invited. (for the most part)

To say restrict all dungeons is borderline asinine; but I will say that "some" content which requires X amount of Y job will be welcome to me. Just not all content which is what some are asking for.

Edit:
I wanted to add that GuildWars locked you're secondary class once you entered an instance and for the most part I never saw complaints because that was the way it was from the "START" of the game. Now; looking back on it I remember LOTS of the time not getting any parties what so ever because I didn't have X job. So when I found that I could get them faster by leveling another character; I did it.

You also can't argue that GuildWars is easy to level because you can get a 50 faster in XIV now than you could get a 20 in GuildWars at the same age of the game (1-2 years in).

Edited, Apr 27th 2012 11:57am by Elionara
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Quote:
Like Final Fantasy XI, the game specs will be extremely high for the time, but in about 5 years, an average machine can run it on max settings with little to no issues. Tanaka also expressed interest in making a benchmark program available.

FilthMcNasty wrote:
I endorse this thread.
#15 Apr 27 2012 at 1:56 PM Rating: Good
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So if you can change jobs on the fly anytime while in a dungeon, why would SE bother trying to balance jobs at all? Just fast switch to whm when you need to cure, switch to dragoon when you need to jump and poke, switch to black mage and nuke until you run out of MP, then switch to archer and keep shooting.. There's literally no need to balance classes at all or have any overlap in abilities because you could just switch classes to do what you need.

Eventually that'll be the norm and if you don't have all classes to 50 then you are gimp and should gtfo of the group *kick*. People are going to min max the **** out of that kind of job system. It might have been easier for SE to have just 3 classes, named DPS, Tank, and Healer and that's it.. That's simple to manage.
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#16 Apr 27 2012 at 2:18 PM Rating: Good
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reptiletim wrote:
So if you can change jobs on the fly anytime while in a dungeon, why would SE bother trying to balance jobs at all? Just fast switch to whm when you need to cure, switch to dragoon when you need to jump and poke, switch to black mage and nuke until you run out of MP, then switch to archer and keep shooting.. There's literally no need to balance classes at all or have any overlap in abilities because you could just switch classes to do what you need.

Eventually that'll be the norm and if you don't have all classes to 50 then you are gimp and should gtfo of the group *kick*. People are going to min max the sh*t out of that kind of job system. It might have been easier for SE to have just 3 classes, named DPS, Tank, and Healer and that's it.. That's simple to manage.


You might want to play the game a bit before making that entire statement. You can't switch if you did any action during combat and the monster that you or your party had engaged/agro'd hasn't died or ran away.

What people complain is: (aurum example)

blm burn untit just before morbol.
switch to monk burn and then engage morbol.

Really in both dungeons you only switch 1-2 times, 2 times at most unless you're party makup isn't working.

From what I read what people what is:
Go in as set jobs. If you suck *** and can't beat anything, force exit and cause the 15 minute timer to come up.
Wait 15 minutes.
Try again.

If they are going to set jobs and you can't change them than they need to make the entrance timer's zero or 5 minutes as if you failed.
____________________________
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/story.html?story=18309
Quote:
Like Final Fantasy XI, the game specs will be extremely high for the time, but in about 5 years, an average machine can run it on max settings with little to no issues. Tanaka also expressed interest in making a benchmark program available.

FilthMcNasty wrote:
I endorse this thread.
#17 Apr 27 2012 at 3:07 PM Rating: Good
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Yea I was exaggerating, but the fear is that not having all classes to 50 will make players gimp and unsuited to group with. That's where my concern is. That just isn't fun. That sounds more like the 2nd job mentality that actually drives all but the hardcore away from MMOs.
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#18 Apr 27 2012 at 3:09 PM Rating: Good
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reptiletim wrote:
So if you can change jobs on the fly anytime while in a dungeon, why would SE bother trying to balance jobs at all? Just fast switch to whm when you need to cure, switch to dragoon when you need to jump and poke, switch to black mage and nuke until you run out of MP, then switch to archer and keep shooting.. There's literally no need to balance classes at all or have any overlap in abilities because you could just switch classes to do what you need.

Eventually that'll be the norm and if you don't have all classes to 50 then you are gimp and should gtfo of the group *kick*. People are going to min max the sh*t out of that kind of job system. It might have been easier for SE to have just 3 classes, named DPS, Tank, and Healer and that's it.. That's simple to manage.


Sorry, but you're way off the mark and has nothing to do with what we're talking about. You're not allowed to change classes/jobs in battle and this is more along the lines of "You defeated mid-boss as a Black Mage. Before going into the area with the final boss, should you be allowed to change to Dragoon?"

If you have any enmity on the enemies, you cannot change jobs/classes. So you wouldn't be able to nuke until 0 MP and then switch to Archer and keep shooting for example. If they did allow that, yes that would be completely broken.


Edited, Apr 27th 2012 2:10pm by UltKnightGrover
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#19OverdriiveX, Posted: Apr 27 2012 at 4:41 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I understand both sides. You can look at both points in positive light and negative, but, if you imagine a world where you could change jobs "on the fly" and use any abilities simply by changing weapons or armor by stringing together macros. Why have the jobs at all? Why not simply give us blank character and an ability tree? If the the ability to change jobs is used as a feature mainly for changing your party around depending on what your doing then it doesnt change much other then having to run to your moogle home less often. If anything, You can level several classes at once in one area. If you level a melee job 5-10 levels at a time each you can string together the armor and stay in the same area. This also means soloing is infinitely easier because after each "decent challenge" that your typical melee would have 20-30% health left after fighting you can now switch to any healing class and heal yourself, switch back. I haven't played ffxiv but I will be soon, I played ffxi for many years and theoretically you could string together decents and em's for good solo experience. Essentially, you can PL yourself lol (my plan)
#20 Apr 27 2012 at 5:48 PM Rating: Good
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Elionara wrote:
reptiletim wrote:
So if you can change jobs on the fly anytime while in a dungeon, why would SE bother trying to balance jobs at all? Just fast switch to whm when you need to cure, switch to dragoon when you need to jump and poke, switch to black mage and nuke until you run out of MP, then switch to archer and keep shooting.. There's literally no need to balance classes at all or have any overlap in abilities because you could just switch classes to do what you need.

Eventually that'll be the norm and if you don't have all classes to 50 then you are gimp and should gtfo of the group *kick*. People are going to min max the sh*t out of that kind of job system. It might have been easier for SE to have just 3 classes, named DPS, Tank, and Healer and that's it.. That's simple to manage.


You might want to play the game a bit before making that entire statement. You can't switch if you did any action during combat and the monster that you or your party had engaged/agro'd hasn't died or ran away.

What people complain is: (aurum example)

blm burn untit just before morbol.
switch to monk burn and then engage morbol.

Really in both dungeons you only switch 1-2 times, 2 times at most unless you're party makup isn't working.

From what I read what people what is:
Go in as set jobs. If you suck *** and can't beat anything, force exit and cause the 15 minute timer to come up.
Wait 15 minutes.
Try again.

If they are going to set jobs and you can't change them than they need to make the entrance timer's zero or 5 minutes as if you failed.


Hate to break it to you but content is balanced on all Jobs being present or a number of them in terms of DDs, mages and tanks. You just like taking the easy route which is acceptable considering its there but wow so much fun BLM burn everything then switch and MNK burn everything instead having an organized party setup that works. You even said yourself you would rather play Paladin. And you're pushing for something that doesn't allow that because "Ellionara you can come but do you have BLM, MNK and ARC leveled as well?" .... "no, sorry! I wanna play PLD!" ... "oh huh nm then, thanks though!" you might be ok with that but like I said I personally don't have the desire to take all my jobs to 50. Will I live with whatever they decide to do? Yea most likely but that's my take on it. And even if they do restrict job changing in instance big deal? I'm sure they have a plethora of open world content in which you can change jobs on the fly still.

Quote:
One thing i would like to see implemented is the ability to LFG by class in a menu, not simply what your currently using


You can do that in this game.

Edited, Apr 27th 2012 8:40pm by kyara10
#21 Apr 27 2012 at 7:04 PM Rating: Decent
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kyara10 wrote:
Elionara wrote:
reptiletim wrote:
So if you can change jobs on the fly anytime while in a dungeon, why would SE bother trying to balance jobs at all? Just fast switch to whm when you need to cure, switch to dragoon when you need to jump and poke, switch to black mage and nuke until you run out of MP, then switch to archer and keep shooting.. There's literally no need to balance classes at all or have any overlap in abilities because you could just switch classes to do what you need.

Eventually that'll be the norm and if you don't have all classes to 50 then you are gimp and should gtfo of the group *kick*. People are going to min max the sh*t out of that kind of job system. It might have been easier for SE to have just 3 classes, named DPS, Tank, and Healer and that's it.. That's simple to manage.


You might want to play the game a bit before making that entire statement. You can't switch if you did any action during combat and the monster that you or your party had engaged/agro'd hasn't died or ran away.

What people complain is: (aurum example)

blm burn untit just before morbol.
switch to monk burn and then engage morbol.

Really in both dungeons you only switch 1-2 times, 2 times at most unless you're party makup isn't working.

From what I read what people what is:
Go in as set jobs. If you suck *** and can't beat anything, force exit and cause the 15 minute timer to come up.
Wait 15 minutes.
Try again.

If they are going to set jobs and you can't change them than they need to make the entrance timer's zero or 5 minutes as if you failed.


Hate to break it to you but content is balanced on all Jobs being present or a number of them in terms of DDs, mages and tanks. You just like taking the easy route which is acceptable considering its there but wow so much fun BLM burn everything then switch and MNK burn everything instead having an organized party setup that works. You even said yourself you would rather play Paladin. And you're pushing for something that doesn't allow that because "Ellionara you can come but do you have BLM, MNK and ARC leveled as well?" .... "no, sorry! I wanna play PLD!" ... "oh huh nm then, thanks though!" you might be ok with that but like I said I personally don't have the desire to take all my jobs to 50. Will I live with whatever they decide to do? Yea most likely but that's my take on it. And even if they do restrict job changing in instance big deal? I'm sure they have a plethora of open world content in which you can change jobs on the fly still.

Quote:
One thing i would like to see implemented is the ability to LFG by class in a menu, not simply what your currently using


You can do that in this game.

Edited, Apr 27th 2012 8:40pm by kyara10


So far I've gotten these responses:
JPonly
MNK/BLM only
war tank only
Double melded gear only
Bend over spank your *** only (I **** you not)

I have all classes 50 ^^;
____________________________
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/story.html?story=18309
Quote:
Like Final Fantasy XI, the game specs will be extremely high for the time, but in about 5 years, an average machine can run it on max settings with little to no issues. Tanaka also expressed interest in making a benchmark program available.

FilthMcNasty wrote:
I endorse this thread.
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