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Conjurer vs thurmatage?Follow

#1 May 02 2012 at 7:07 AM Rating: Decent
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I don't get from the youtube vids ive seen (i don't own the game yet) what the differences are, CON i thought was a healer and buffer and THU i thought was an elemental damage dealer? some one please shed some light :)
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#2 May 02 2012 at 7:15 AM Rating: Good
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You'll see old videos up there from back on the day THMs were healers. Currently THms are magic DD. Cons are healing and buffs. Thm becomes blm. Con gets whm
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#3 May 02 2012 at 7:18 AM Rating: Decent
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can cons use like fire thunder and stuff?
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#4 May 02 2012 at 8:32 AM Rating: Good
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Via cross class, but you'll need to level THM for access to it.
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#5Rinsui, Posted: May 02 2012 at 9:17 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) What the **** were people at SE thinking when they came up with "Thaumaturge" as a
#6 May 02 2012 at 9:29 AM Rating: Excellent
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Rinsui wrote:
What the **** were people at SE thinking when they came up with "Thaumaturge" as a
translation for 呪術師 (curse-artist)? That archaic, illegible character classes are cool? >.>



Thaumaturge isn't a made-up word. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thaumaturge
#7 May 02 2012 at 9:48 AM Rating: Excellent
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Rinsui wrote:
What the **** were people at SE thinking when they came up with "Thaumaturge" as a
translation for 呪術師 (curse-artist)?


呪術師 is also like a Shaman or a Witch Doctor; saying that it's a "curse artist" is a very literal translation. The major problem with translation is that, in English, we have some powerful associations with Shamans and especially Witch Doctors (and both happen to make significant appearances in current Blizzard games), and they are associations which really make no sense attached to the class we know as Thaumaturge.

Thaumaturge is actually a great translation for 呪術師 (pronounced "jyujyutsushi"), since 呪術師 is a 呪 (spell/curse) 術 (artist) 師 (expert/master/teacher), and the word Thaumaturge combines Thaumato- [Miracle/wonder/spell] + -urgy [expert/worker]. Thus much of the sense is retained but none of the associations. I should also mention that 呪術師, like Thaumaturge, is not a common Japanese noun, and so that aspect, too, is retained across languages.

Thaumaturge is a word that seems to start appearing in English around 1715, just about the same time that Zombie was entering the language (it was sometimes written "zonbi" at the time). There was even a book - by none other than Robert Southey - defining Zombies and "Vodun [voodoo]" to the public. What seemed strange and esoteric then is now extremely common parlance, and there's no reason we can't do the same for Thaumaturge.^^
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"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#8 May 02 2012 at 9:51 AM Rating: Good
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And I thought I spent too much time on Wikipedia.
#9 May 02 2012 at 10:04 AM Rating: Good
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Urste wrote:
And I thought I spent too much time on Wikipedia.


More like grad. school... the less efficient Wikipedia of the past. (._. )
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"... he called to himself a wizard, named Gallery, hoping by this means to escape the paying of the fifteen hundred crowns..." (Machen 15)

"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#10 May 02 2012 at 10:11 AM Rating: Decent
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Nope, Kane. The translation is pretty bad not because it is not literal, but right because it
pretty much inverts the meaning of the Japanese original. While you accurately describe
Thaumaturges as "Miracle Workers", the same association is not given for the 「呪」part
of 呪術師. 呪 is never-ever associated with miracles or wonders; just with evil wizardry
and curses. Coincidentially, the second expansion of FFXI was called 「プロマシアの呪縛」.
Rings a bell? Arguably there was little positively wondrous and miraculous about Promathia.

Likewise, what the job originally did had little to do with wonders and miracles. Unless you
like being afflicted with debilitating diseases. Even it's original healing spell was a twist on
ritual sacrifices. As was the blood spell that enhanced magic potency (and seared the flesh
of the caster).

Besides, every child in Japan will be able to read the word 呪術師 and have a rough but
correct understanding of what to expect from that grim man with the blood-stained black
weirdo hat. Show me one in a hundred adult US middleclass men who can tell you what
a Thaumaturge is, and I'll concede defeat. Bad translation is bad translation. Not original.
Just bad translation.
#11 May 02 2012 at 10:13 AM Rating: Decent
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P.S.: Pretty much like the "translation" of the auction house concept into market wards was quite a bit off the mark. ;)
#12 May 02 2012 at 11:18 AM Rating: Excellent
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I think one problem is the fact that so many English adjectives have come to mean relatively the same thing to people today. Wonderful, miraculous, marvellous, fantastic, terrific, awesome: all of these words, in common use, are frequently interchangeable. And yet for something to cause wonder is not necessarily positive, just as a miracle is not necessarily a pleasing god-granted boon - either word can also express that something is beyond normal understanding, puzzling, or outright supernatural.

We're such sensationalists today that almost any word describing an intense feeling is treated as a positive description. Terrific is technically supposed to refer to causing terror or fear. Awesome things are supposed to overwhelm us into silence or reverence. And yet, golly, that kids' movie last night sure was terrific! And so on...

Basically what I mean to say is that someone who works wonders is not necessarily someone who does pleasant things. In a way, Promathia's condition is quite miraculous in that it surpasses the range of relatively banal mortal affairs. You are certainly right that 呪 is mostly "dark magic" kind of stuff, though, and I think I was a little too loose with my initial definition; however, when we start talking about 呪術, things definitely start looking more like vodun/voodoo magic and less like generic evil sorcery, complicating the matter slightly.

I guess it doesn't matter much either way since, regardless of what we call them, a thaumaturge comes down to a Black Mage in the end. And we all know what a Black Mage is. :P


Edited, May 2nd 2012 1:58pm by KaneKitty
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"... he called to himself a wizard, named Gallery, hoping by this means to escape the paying of the fifteen hundred crowns..." (Machen 15)

"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#13 May 02 2012 at 12:04 PM Rating: Decent
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...and that's right why we should have had Black Mages in the first place ^.^/

Edit: At least for starters. I mean, it wouldn't have hurt to make it past the
character selection screen without using a thesaurus.

Edited, May 2nd 2012 2:14pm by Rinsui
#14 May 02 2012 at 12:22 PM Rating: Good
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Kane, you are a language nerd after my own heart. Cept my major is Spanish. :o
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#15 May 02 2012 at 7:06 PM Rating: Excellent
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Thaumaturge is an awesome word. The end.
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#16 May 02 2012 at 7:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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KaneKitty wrote:
I think one problem is the fact that so many English adjectives have come to mean relatively the same thing to people today. Wonderful, miraculous, marvellous, fantastic, terrific, awesome: all of these words, in common use, are frequently interchangeable. And yet for something to cause wonder is not necessarily positive, just as a miracle is not necessarily a pleasing god-granted boon - either word can also express that something is beyond normal understanding, puzzling, or outright supernatural.

We're such sensationalists today that almost any word describing an intense feeling is treated as a positive description. Terrific is technically supposed to refer to causing terror or fear. Awesome things are supposed to overwhelm us into silence or reverence. And yet, golly, that kids' movie last night sure was terrific! And so on...

Basically what I mean to say is that someone who works wonders is not necessarily someone who does pleasant things. In a way, Promathia's condition is quite miraculous in that it surpasses the range of relatively banal mortal affairs. You are certainly right that 呪 is mostly "dark magic" kind of stuff, though, and I think I was a little too loose with my initial definition; however, when we start talking about 呪術, things definitely start looking more like vodun/voodoo magic and less like generic evil sorcery, complicating the matter slightly.

I guess it doesn't matter much either way since, regardless of what we call them, a thaumaturge comes down to a Black Mage in the end. And we all know what a Black Mage is. :P


Edited, May 2nd 2012 1:58pm by KaneKitty


Kane, I want to big spoon your brain.
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#17 May 02 2012 at 10:47 PM Rating: Good
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I love you people but, unfortunately, like most everyone who frequently posts on an internet forum, I lack any capacity to interact with others without relying upon an argumentative pretext... is there anything about which we can bicker? Anything at all!? Please, save me from myself, save me from... friendship. ( º__º)
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"... he called to himself a wizard, named Gallery, hoping by this means to escape the paying of the fifteen hundred crowns..." (Machen 15)

"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#18 May 03 2012 at 2:25 AM Rating: Good
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That's a very good question. If someone thinks of something to argue about I'd be happy to join in

:)
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#19 May 03 2012 at 7:47 AM Rating: Excellent
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Umm, ummm.... Content fin... No wait, we want an argument not World War III. I think... You know it's pretty bloody hard to come up with an argument on demand. I think I'm just going to go over here and ponder mito'sis.


Edited, May 3rd 2012 9:49am by Hulan
#20 May 03 2012 at 7:58 PM Rating: Good
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Hulan wrote:
Umm, ummm.... Content fin... No wait, we want an argument not World War III. I think... You know it's pretty bloody hard to come up with an argument on demand. I think I'm just going to go over here and ponder mito'sis.


Edited, May 3rd 2012 9:49am by Hulan


Mito'sis are clean I washed them last night!

........………….....................

I am sorry. I couldn't resist. Poor sense of humor is a genetic trait in my family.

Edited, May 3rd 2012 10:00pm by kainsilv
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#21jarradstone, Posted: May 03 2012 at 11:04 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) You have all killed the thread I started, ps who cares about the true origin meaning or nature of a word u poins
#22 May 04 2012 at 7:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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Okay so to answer the OP's question:

Most of the videos etc. you are probably finding on YouTube are probably pre-patch 1.19. So yes, it would be confusing. I am sure SE will release a bunch of promo stuff over the summer to gear up to 2.0.

Conjurer: Many will tell you 'Conjurer is a healer'. This is somewhat true, as CNJ does in fact learn all the CURE,RAISE,PROTECT,STONESKIN spells. However, because classes are meant to be soloable/for small parties, CNJ also is the class that natively learns AERO and STONE type spells. Therefore CNJ is a hybrid between healer/nuker. If it helps to know a little background, Conjurers are from Gridania, a town that communes with the elementals and forest surrounding it. (Think something akin to a Druid Priest). Aero and Stone type elemental spells were most likely assigned to CNJ rather than THM because they are both healing/protecting and damaging in nature. Air is needed for breath but can also destroy as a Tornado, Plants need soil to grow, but an earthquake can topple a tree.

Now it is also important to know that CNJ is the primary class needed to unlock the job, White Mage. White Mage is actually the ONLY true healer in the game at the moment. In addition to all the spells it gets from it's native CNJ, White Mage also learns Regen, Holy, Esuna, Benediction.

Thaumaturge: Many will tell you 'Thaumaturge is the nuker' This is true. But it's not the only class capable of nuking, nor is it always the 'best'. Thm is the 'less-developed' mage class atm in my opinion because it basically plays like the job Black Mage, but without any of the cool abilities or Convert. So you have MP issues at times with this class. That being said, THM can do some major damage, and occasionally it is good strategy to have someone come to a battle as a THM over Black Mage because they have some AOE buffing potential/can back up heal (by equipping CNJ abilities) that a BLM doesn't have access to.

Thaumaturge learns: THUNDER, FIRE, BLIZZARD-type spells. Also, by casting these spells, you can enfeeble a mob. Blizzard can add gravity for example. You also learn SLEEP. In addition to your spells, you gain access to abilities that either increase the potential damage output of your next spell, heal a portion of your HP's based on the damage of your next spell or can be used with a CNJ ability to AOE buff the party (the buff grants HP/MP in relation to damage taken over a short period of time).

Thaumaturge also is the primary class that unlocks Black Mage. Black Mage can use all of THM's native spells but also gains the 'Ancient Magic' version of them, FLARE,FREEZE,BURST...also you get CONVERT. Convert swaps your HP's for your MP and can be used (depending on gear setup) around every 5:30 mins.


Lastly, not to confuse you more but when playing the class Conjurer, you can equip some but not all of THM's spells and abilities. So it IS possible to see a CNJ cast Thunder in a video made post 1.19. It is also possible to see a Thaumature cast Cure post 1.19. But in order to do this, the player had to equip a non-native spell from the other class. You will not see a BLM cure or a WHM cast Thunder however, as these Jobs cannot equip those spells.

I hope this helps you a little.
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#23 May 05 2012 at 5:42 AM Rating: Default
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Or, a little easier to understand:

FFFXIV's armoury system in combination with different restrictions placed on jobs and classes
is a ****** up mess of rules, exceptions to those rules and exceptions to those exceptions
topped off with stats that allegedly affect each class differently
but don't really seem to affect anything much at all
and a lot of seemingly important decisions
that can be reverted within seconds and are, basically, just as inconsequential
as the class, race, gender, guardian goddess, birthdate or starting city you choose to start the game with.
#24 May 05 2012 at 4:57 PM Rating: Default
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Or, in spoken word:

Tanaka stepped down, but we haven't missed him,
The man who conceived the armoury system.
A f*cked up mess of rules that nobody gets,
Implemented, changing nothing (like moonphase), just for sh*ts.
Yoshida came up, just as inconsequential
As class, race, gender, goddess, birthdate -- incidental
Shells of a game, of rules and exceptions,
As players chase nostalgia with Final Fantasy erections.
____________________________
"... he called to himself a wizard, named Gallery, hoping by this means to escape the paying of the fifteen hundred crowns..." (Machen 15)

"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
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