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#1 May 05 2012 at 9:04 AM Rating: Decent
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I just had a stroll in the official forums and stumbled over this post.
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/44771-Peti-...Request-Allow-welcome-back-members-to-post-in-the-forums.

Basically the first 3 pages is full of current players that are adamantly AGAINST as much as feedback from
welcome-back players and newcomers. This is one of the most disturbing and ultimately dangerous cases
of siege mentality I've ever seen in a game that claims to not have died yet.

For me, it just shows that even current player are very, very unsure whether their game can withstand the
scrutiny of newcomers and veterans that left for some time. To justify their position, they even claim that
most of those who come back would be "trolls that just want to ruin the forums". As if a) the forum needed
to be ruined and b) there were any trolls left even remotely interested in destroying their precious gems.

I think trying to shut out anyone with a fresh view on things is very, very, very dangerous, and generally an
unmistakable sign of a game breathing it's final coughs. If you are proud of what you are doing or even just
about the promise your game holds for the future, there is no need to hide in the dark, behind iron doors and
a hundred feet underground. There should be no need to gag the mouths of "dissidents" and "outsiders" in a
healthy, breathing community.

I know that pulling the red **** card imediately loses any argument. But this time, I feel compelled to pull it
anyway. Because once people like these control what is said, though or written in a forum, it's Game Over.
For real.
#2 May 05 2012 at 9:28 AM Rating: Default
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Rin, I'm surprised that you're surprised. Masses have been saying those things since Tanaka stepped down.
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#3 May 05 2012 at 9:45 AM Rating: Good
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Or, the players are sick of people whining without actual feedback.

"This is terrible, fix it SE!" < = Average Angry Forum poster, paraphrased.

There's no content in that sort of feedback, and the official boards strain long and hard for trying to get the feedback to be concise, because Yoshi has proven to have an ear to the ground when it comes to the official boards.

It already has enough issues with it's loyal base debating between the Casual and Hardcore debate - a topic I've been composing a comprehensive editorial and idea thread on for the past week.

Right now, there should be a distinction drawn between those who are just coming back now, and those who've been following the development path. Having a separate board for the former will give better insight as to where this feedback is coming from.

Forcing the two to mix will cause far more debate than constructive criticism.
#4 May 05 2012 at 10:03 AM Rating: Decent
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People is dumb.

The same thing happened in alpha testing when they'd add a new wave and also just before they opened up beta testing. There was a large part of the small alpha community who would point out the date they were added to testing as if being there before someone else gave you some sort of weight to sling around and made your opinion more important. It's fine how it is, the devs don't need your help and who are you to think you can come in here changing things.. ect ect.

If SE is going to revive XIV then new and returning players bring the forums a new perspective that they could benefit from. At least that is, until said players realize that their feedback falls on deaf eyes and is reduced to fanboy flamebait.
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Rinsui wrote:
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HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#5 May 05 2012 at 10:11 AM Rating: Decent
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Why do you think we want these threads separate to begin with?

The players deserve to have their feedback, and done in a way that prevents the usual flame wars that happens between fans and critics.

And don't play innocent. People who are outrage are just as likely to attack those who like and want to preserve specific aspects of the game as it is the other way around.

There needs to be ways for both of these perspectives to be heard, and done civily. Taking a whole bunch of newbies and throwing them to the wolves isn't a smart idea to get concise feedback from the Welcome Back Campaigners.
#6 May 05 2012 at 10:25 AM Rating: Decent
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Hyrist I agree that the feedback needs to be directed, but the problem is that most people will flame you unless they deem your feedback to be constructive.

I'm not a game developer and I'm not going to put forward a fix for everything I don't like about a game or even a specific mechanic. I will however, be specific about what it is that I don't like and why so that the devs have a general idea. If I were a developer, I'd much rather hear something like "The combat system seems slow and it isn't engaging" or "Crafting is too tedious and the UI is cluttered" 1000 times than have 1000 4 page dissertations on specifics that joe schmoe armchair dev came up with.
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#7 May 05 2012 at 10:39 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Or, the players are sick of people whining without actual feedback.
"This is terrible, fix it SE!" < = Average Angry Forum poster, paraphrased.
There's no content in that sort of feedback...


Well, I guess the closest thing to what you claim possibly would be "thems
marketwarts ate Shi%TS". And know what? That's valid and actually pretty
accurate feedback for me. Seriously condensed, yes, but it sends SE a
message that too few on the forums nowadays voice because they have
simply become accustomed to staggering around on crutches.

The problem is that most of those who are still left now are unable to see
the problems, right because they overt-adapted. I'm not sure whether this
is a commonly understood US expression, but here, we call it "organizational
blindness". It's the reason for why many traditional companies ultimately die.
Because workers and management alike are unable to see the faults of their
company, because THAT'S HOW WE DO THINGS AROUND HERE, NOOB.

Quote:
Having a separate board for the former will give better insight as to where
this feedback is coming from (...) forcing the two to mix will cause far more debate
than constructive criticism.


I hope for debate. And fights. And accusations. And critique. Because I think that's
the lifeblood of online communities. In principle, I understand your (comprehensible)
worries. I also fear that new player feedback could be curbed by the mind-police force
of brainwashed oldboys. But it will not be possible to seperate the two groups indefinitely
anyway. And newcomers will at least force "the establishment" to remember that there
are, in principle, alternatives. Alternatives they have long forgotten about.

Quote:
Rin, I'm surprised that you're surprised.


I'm a dimwit. And a @#%^. And a troll. What can you expect.

Edit: Wow, the word @#%^ is blocked? @#%^ @#%^ @#%^. Interesting.

Edited, May 5th 2012 12:44pm by Rinsui
#8 May 05 2012 at 10:40 AM Rating: Good
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Hyrist I agree that the feedback needs to be directed, but the problem is that most people will flame you unless they deem your feedback to be constructive.


Two solutions:

First, keep the Campaign forums seperate, meaning current users cannot access campaign user's forums and vice versa.

Second, servey the Campaign players at the end of the campaign.

Now you've isolated one section of the feedback so you know where they are coming from, and they can discuss debate with their own peers without instilling flame-war dividing lines between 'free' and 'paying' players.

And the second part is you get the advantages of BOTH the simple, AND the complex arm-chair developers's feedback. (*grumble* calling me arm-chair *grumble*)


*notices he was quoted*

"Oh good! I can debate with someone!"

*sees bottom of the post*

Quote:
I'm a dimwit. And a @#%^. And a troll. What can you expect.


"Oh good disclaimer, now I can ignore the post!"

Edited, May 5th 2012 12:42pm by Hyrist
#9 May 05 2012 at 12:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Lol. Omg. Hilarious thread is hilarious.

Rin,

I do see your point very much so, but I see what Hyr is saying as well. I do enjoy constructive opinions because that is how one learns. Idk. This is one I'm torn on. The thing is Hyr, people flame and debate on the forums as it is. And I understand the payers vs. non players, but I think the non-payers such as Rin could truly add some to what would bring players back debate. Idk. Definately a fine line for sure.
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#10 May 05 2012 at 12:22 PM Rating: Good
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Copied from my post on the topic Rin was referring to:

Quote:
I just believe they need a clearer sounding board, and better room to discuss between themselves the issues they run into.

ESPECIALLY issues that we could solve for them.

Random example:If they're discussing issues like where to find certain NMs for quest and the difficult of that when you do not have word of mouth, and we cut that conversation short by handing them the answers, SE's lost the feedback that they could refine the questing system a touch.

Giving them their own little place to commune gives SE a unique sort of perspective of how new or returning players could view their game without hand-holding or debate from the loyal base. I think that's something the Developers deserve to be able to study without interruption.

If they want to talk with other active players, they could always go to other community sites like Zam, goodness knows they could use the traffic.


>.>

What? We COULD use more people over here!
#11 May 05 2012 at 2:13 PM Rating: Decent
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Hyrist wrote:
Two solutions:

First, keep the Campaign forums seperate, meaning current users cannot access campaign user's forums and vice versa.

Second, servey the Campaign players at the end of the campaign.


The first solution just shifts the seniority mentality from being player initiated to being implied by forum access.

The second solution only works if they actually do something based on the result and even then, it only drives a bigger wedge between two groups of players that didn't really need to be segregated in the first place. What difference does it make if you paid a few months or not? If good ideas come from someone who picked the game up yesterday, we wouldn't want them to be implemented solely because that player was newer or wouldn't be suckered into paying for a product that they and many others didn't feel was worth it? Gotta get my jabs in somewhere...
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#12 May 05 2012 at 2:31 PM Rating: Good
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FilthMcNasty wrote:


The first solution just shifts the seniority mentality from being player initiated to being implied by forum access.


As it's already implied by the fact that they do not have form access already, this argument bears no weight. Giving them any forum access at all implies a gesture towards listening to them, and the benefits doing so in their own forum rather than full access outweigh the flaws by a large margin.

Quote:
The second solution only works if they actually do something based on the result and even then, it only drives a bigger wedge between two groups of players that didn't really need to be segregated in the first place. What difference does it make if you paid a few months or not? If good ideas come from someone who picked the game up yesterday, we wouldn't want them to be implemented solely because that player was newer or wouldn't be suckered into paying for a product that they and many others didn't feel was worth it? Gotta get my jabs in somewhere...


I disagree as to your point that the base did not need to be segregated. There needed to be a place where paying players were able to give uninterrupted feedback to the developers and it was a wise decision for them to do so.

My Opinion that players that do come back on the goodwill gesture of SE deserve the same sort of opportunity for uninterrupted feedback is the reasoning by suggesting the isolated forums. The hierarchy will not matter at 2.0, but the feedback will provide a viewpoint on aspect that perhaps the already acclimatized paying player base may have overlooked.

What matters about whether or not you paid for a few months is important because it means you've been following along the development course at the very least the gameplay level - and at the very most, down to every speck of community development and feedback for the past year (Hard to call that a few months.)

As far as weighing in on what would get them back - that sort of feedback can be brought to the attention of the developers and weighed in on their current plans. It may change priorities among projects to be released post 2.0 to be pushed more to the front, or give them ideas for future project. It 'works' if they so much as look at the data. What they do with it ultimately is their digression and it's the developers that deserve the opportunity as well as the players deserving to have their voice on things be heard. They don't have to do anything with it if they so choose. It's just data-gathering.

This idea of 'omg it's going to cause a social stigma' is pointless drama-mongering. It's an opportunity for a fresh perspective and a means for Yoshi to get more data off of it. They should capitalize on that and be given the best opportunity to hear the uninterrupted feedback.

Simply adding them to the current form users runs the risk of adding a whole lot unnecessary static.

Edited, May 5th 2012 4:37pm by Hyrist
#13 May 05 2012 at 2:36 PM Rating: Decent
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It is stupid silly and pity things like this, that makes me think that even if 2.0 happens to be successful it's community will destroy and ran off any new players that come into the game.

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#14 May 05 2012 at 2:38 PM Rating: Good
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Are you even reading the thread in question?

The majority opinion is that the voice should be heard, but heard in it's own section to prevent pointless bickering and arguing.

Players WANT other players's feedback. What they don't want is forum drama.
#15 May 05 2012 at 3:12 PM Rating: Decent
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Hyrist wrote:
My Opinion that players that do come back on the goodwill gesture of SE deserve the same sort of opportunity for uninterrupted feedback is the reasoning by suggesting the isolated forums.


A goodwill gesture? If I was hemorrhaging blood I wouldn't consider it a goodwill gesture to accept a donation from someone. It's borderline desperation.

Hyrist wrote:
What matters about whether or not you paid for a few months is important because it means you've been following along the development course at the very least the gameplay level - and at the very most, down to every speck of community development and feedback for the past year (Hard to call that a few months.)


Only if you assume they played for a week or two and quit. Most people at least logged in to update and test out what was new. The game remained free for the majority of it's lifespan. Even if you only logged in to update until subs were reinstated, you've seen most of the development process. I don't see it making much of an impact.

Hyrist wrote:
They don't have to do anything with it if they so choose.


At their own peril. They've gone down that road and I still can't see them on the horizon trying to their way back.

I don't see the point of keeping them split. A year from now(tentatively) a large(they hope) influx of new and old players will come crashing in anyway. Delaying the inevitable? Seems pointless to me. Disagree? Agreed.



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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#16 May 05 2012 at 5:24 PM Rating: Decent
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Below is my original post, but after reading it again, I think it's a little too extreme (while accurate). All I really want
to warn you about is: segregating those who come back to to a seperate forum, no matter how noble your intentions
are, sends out a message that could easily be misunderstood. To me, it sounds like: we offer you some place to post,
but heavens forbid you disturb our forums with your stupid uninformed comments and questions. After all, you are not
welcome. You are just tolerated because our subscription fees alone are too little to pay for the servers.


Hmm. Even after being defaulted (and no doubt sub-defaulted within the next few hours) I stand by my opinion.
FFXIV is rapidly turning into an exclusive club of inbred players who try to shut out outsiders, even those who are
playing the game on trial as much as possible just because they might distrub their precious harmony. Which, in
my opinion, is nothing but stasis and decay.

I see the point of seperate forums, but in my opinion the bad clearly outweights the good in this case. We need
no segregation. And we don't need to "contain" those evil, evil, disturbing newcomers to their own concentration
camp somewhere on a forum that's as far removed from our la-la-la-la world of bliss and hope and peaceful and
docile tranquility as possible because only we can see the truth of the glory of our game.

For every inch of skin that considers splitting newcomer to a second-class forum substitute, three arms and a leg
cry no. Know what? If I was a new or returning player, and SE decided that people in the holy official forums have
a right to spit down on my opinion, I would just back out, close the door silently and be happy that I made the right
decision to not subscribe after all. There's always "good reasons" for apartheid. Just - I don't buy them.


Edited, May 5th 2012 7:48pm by Rinsui
#17 May 05 2012 at 6:44 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
The majority opinion is that the voice should be heard, but heard in it's own section to prevent pointless bickering and arguing.


Hyr,
True, but you know as well as I do that you and I frequent the lodestone forums and there is already senseless bickering that goes on amongst even the legit players. In a way opening it up to the general public I don't think would hurt it anymore than the paying players do already in a way.

People there still troll. You are going to have trolls no matter what if that is what you are afraid of.
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#18 May 05 2012 at 10:01 PM Rating: Good
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Most of the people who would post just to troll have forgotten about this game already. Look at Zam FFXIV forums this place has the same unbumped topics on the first page for over a week and I would guess Zam has the most populated FFXIV fan site forums of all the fan sites.

There might be a few who would post just to troll but if SE/Posters cant deal with a small bit of trolling they need to log off of the internet or grow some thicker skin.
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#19 May 05 2012 at 10:20 PM Rating: Excellent
tpgsoldier wrote:
Most of the people who would post just to troll have forgotten about this game already. Look at Zam FFXIV forums this place has the same unbumped topics on the first page for over a week and I would guess Zam has the most populated FFXIV fan site forums of all the fan sites.

There might be a few who would post just to troll but if SE/Posters cant deal with a small bit of trolling they need to log off of the internet or grow some thicker skin.


That's exactly it, if you're so worried about useless or non well thought out criticism then ignore it and move on. People don't need to reply to ridiculous posts, yet they feel inclined to do so. Honestly, for a week and then some of feedback from players to me would be invaluable as a developer. If you as SE can't weed out the good from the bad, then maybe whoever's doing the reading of the forums should simply lose their job and give it to someone else. The forums are active, but they're not THAT active, you can easily filter the good from the bad.

If the game really has improved that much over the last few months, I'd allow people to post just to get some positive feedback from outsiders for once. Once again, you're trying to attract new players and old players, not people who are already addicted and willing to pay for the next 2 years.
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#20 May 05 2012 at 11:58 PM Rating: Default
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I will expect a lot of: "THIS GAME SUCKS! GUILD WARS 2 RULES! GUILD WARS 2 IS MY GIRL FRIEND, I CAN'T WAIT UNTIL GUILD WARS 2 COMES OUT AND CRUSHES EVERY MMO FOR ALL OF TIME!"

I am a noob in FF14, but so far I enjoy the game, it's different in a lot of ways, so it is fresh to me. Brings me back to my FF11 days in 2004. That being said, let the trolls..well troll, just don't feed them.
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#21 May 06 2012 at 12:05 AM Rating: Good
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Hyrist wrote:
Are you even reading the thread in question?

The majority opinion is that the voice should be heard, but heard in it's own section to prevent pointless bickering and arguing.

Players WANT other players's feedback. What they don't want is forum drama.


The majority opinion of what 20 people that have posted on the thread ? There is no need to separate players, that only helps to alienate the already very small population, and why ? because some people might say that the game sucks or some other mmo is better ? really ? after 2 years of knowingly knowing that this game sucks and other games are better, reading it affects people somehow ?
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#22 May 06 2012 at 2:37 AM Rating: Good
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LillithaFenimore wrote:
True, but you know as well as I do that you and I frequent the lodestone forums and there is already senseless bickering that goes on amongst even the legit players.


Because players who realized that there was a more entertaining use of their time while SE scrambled to pull their $#!t together, somehow they aren't 'legit'? This is exactly the problem...

I'd be willing to put money down that you'd see far more "You know nothing because you only played for 10 days" posts from so called 'legit' players than you'd see "This game sucks and anything would be better". People seem to forget that the latter have probably moved on, are playing said games and not wasting their time posting to lodestone.

______ :
If someone came back to give XIV a try it's highly likely that they have been keeping up with the progress of it's restoration, they at least have some hope or faith that SE has made progress and they will at some point enjoy the game enough to subscribe...
#23 May 06 2012 at 2:49 AM Rating: Excellent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
LillithaFenimore wrote:
True, but you know as well as I do that you and I frequent the lodestone forums and there is already senseless bickering that goes on amongst even the legit players.


Because players who realized that there was a more entertaining use of their time while SE scrambled to pull their $#!t together, somehow they aren't 'legit'? This is exactly the problem...

I'd be willing to put money down that you'd see far more "You know nothing because you only played for 10 days" posts from so called 'legit' players than you'd see "This game sucks and anything would be better". People seem to forget that the latter have probably moved on, are playing said games and not wasting their time posting to lodestone.

______ :
If someone came back to give XIV a try it's highly likely that they have been keeping up with the progress of it's restoration, they at least have some hope or faith that SE has made progress and they will at some point enjoy the game enough to subscribe...


Well, Filth, scanning his other comments, I guess Lillitha did not mean to use "legit" to brand the welcome-back players as illegal immigrants,
but to contrast the one group with the other. Unlucky wording. But there's one thing - or better: one obvious fear - I fail to understand here:

Quote:
I will expect a lot of: "THIS GAME SUCKS! GUILD WARS 2 RULES! GUILD WARS 2 IS MY GIRL FRIEND, I CAN'T WAIT UNTIL GUILD WARS 2 COMES OUT AND CRUSHES EVERY MMO FOR ALL OF TIME!"


Do you really believe that anyone applies for the welcome back campaign, reactivates his account and signs in to the forum just to post
things like this? And even if: who cares?
#24RicoJalapeno, Posted: May 06 2012 at 2:53 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Yes I do actually. GW2 fanboys attack SWTOR forums and facebook page everyday. They will no doubt do it for this game, if they see it as the slightest threat to their game. I don't really care, I am just making a note.
#25 May 06 2012 at 3:28 AM Rating: Excellent
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They will no doubt do it for this game, if they see it as the slightest threat to their game.

Whew. I was already worried.
#26 May 06 2012 at 3:42 AM Rating: Excellent
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There is no point in having seperate forums for them simply because we are all playing the same game. I don't get why people think that since they are paying their opinion counts for more. This promotion isn't about us its about them anyway their voice should be heard just as much as ours should. The people who decide to keep playing will be a part of the community anyway so what's the point in keeping them seperated? I just think its stupid to think "I've been playing since beta so I'm more entitled than you". And to the whole worry about the trolling and unnessecary arguments it happens anyway on any forum on the internet if you don't like it then don't read or respond to it that's just how the internet works I'm surprised people don't see that already.

I'm just saying if you want this game to succeed then the more players the better chance of that happening. If our views and opinions should be taken into consideration to help satisfy our playing expierence then so should the views and opinions of the people taking advantage of the campaign. In fact letting them have access to the forums would be the better solution because they can discuss their issues with people who have been playing this whole time. There is no reason the cut them off just because some people feel entitled. No matter what the devs do with the game there will always be someone who disagrees you can't make everyone happy.
#27 May 06 2012 at 4:03 AM Rating: Good
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RicoJalapeno wrote:
Yes I do actually. GW2 fanboys attack SWTOR forums and facebook page everyday. They will no doubt do it for this game, if they see it as the slightest threat to their game. I don't really care, I am just making a note.


GW sold something like 6 million copies. A very generous estimate for the largest number of subs to XI at any point in time would be a tenth of that figure. Although I'm excited for it, I don't consider myself a fanboy of GW2. I will point out though that when I tried to pre-purchase the digital download it was 'sold out'. You might ask yourself the same question I did; how the **** do you sell out of a digital download? Well they didn't but they had to discontinue sales because underestimated the volume of sales and realized they wouldn't have enough server space for the early access events. Add that to your note.

How exactly would this make any GW fan think that XIV would be 'the slightest threat to their game'?


____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#28 May 06 2012 at 5:06 AM Rating: Decent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
RicoJalapeno wrote:
Yes I do actually. GW2 fanboys attack SWTOR forums and facebook page everyday. They will no doubt do it for this game, if they see it as the slightest threat to their game. I don't really care, I am just making a note.


GW sold something like 6 million copies. A very generous estimate for the largest number of subs to XI at any point in time would be a tenth of that figure. Although I'm excited for it, I don't consider myself a fanboy of GW2. I will point out though that when I tried to pre-purchase the digital download it was 'sold out'. You might ask yourself the same question I did; how the **** do you sell out of a digital download? Well they didn't but they had to discontinue sales because underestimated the volume of sales and realized they wouldn't have enough server space for the early access events. Add that to your note.

How exactly would this make any GW fan think that XIV would be 'the slightest threat to their game'?




Don't ask me, yet SWTOR populations are going way down, yet they still attack it. I am ready to play GW2 too, but their is a difference between people who want to play it, and people who attack every MMO because GW2 will crush it. I can't enjoy any MMO without someone shoving GW2 in my face. No matter where I go, people attack the game I am playing. I am not saying it gets to me, I was just making a comedic comment about whats to come. I mean Tera is a great game, but I decided to play FF14 instead. Yet if you go to read anything about Tera there is always GW2 people in there trashing Tera. So when the welcome back campaign starts, we should expect a few or so GW2 fanboys. Just saying.
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#29 May 06 2012 at 6:22 AM Rating: Decent
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RicoJalapeno wrote:
So when the welcome back campaign starts, we should expect a few or so GW2 fanboys. Just saying.


Shouldn't matter. It's not a good enough reason to keep much needed feedback from reaching the devs. Besides, the campaign is for people who already played XIV. The obvious counter to any 'your game sucks, mine is better' trolling is 'well why did you bother to buy XIV in the first place?'.
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#30 May 06 2012 at 6:40 AM Rating: Default
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
RicoJalapeno wrote:
So when the welcome back campaign starts, we should expect a few or so GW2 fanboys. Just saying.


Shouldn't matter. It's not a good enough reason to keep much needed feedback from reaching the devs. Besides, the campaign is for people who already played XIV. The obvious counter to any 'your game sucks, mine is better' trolling is 'well why did you bother to buy XIV in the first place?'.


Well the game came out a long time ago, so I am guessing a lot of them could be former players. Final Fantasy 14 was supposed to be the next greatest thing, but as we all know that didn't happen.
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#31 May 06 2012 at 8:49 AM Rating: Good
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RicoJalapeno wrote:
Well the game came out a long time ago, so I am guessing a lot of them could be former players.


It's called the 'Welcome back campaign'. It's a chance for players who already have a FFXIV service account to reactivate it and get a 10 day trial. All of these players have played FFXIV before. The only way they haven't is if they bought the box, setup an account and never bothered to actually log in to the game. The difference between a 'regular' player and one who comes back through this campaign is that the 'regular' player was already subscribed with an active account.

A campaign player simply decided that the game wasn't worth the monthly fee. This would be the majority considering that XIV's subscriber base is less than 10% of the people who purchased the game to begin with. These are the people you really want to come back to the game. If you had a PR disaster like SE had on launch, it would be to your benefit to wow the people who weren't satisfied and left.

Getting those people back probably means just as much or more to a prospective new player as the opinion of someone who stuck it out regardless of how things have gone. There is already a stigma attached to FF MMO gamers that they're masochistic. I'd look sideways at someone who told me that XIV was a great game if they didn't preface it with something to the effect of "I used to hate this game, but that potential that everyone talked about is starting to surface".




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30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#32 May 06 2012 at 9:39 PM Rating: Good
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So because a few people might say "GW2 RULES!!" it's ok to divide the community and deprive the dev's from actually the most important feedback they can get, wish is "Hey your game lacks this and this is why i will not sub for it"

Oh and swotor is doing just fine, unless 1.5-1.7million subs are bad.....
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#33 May 07 2012 at 12:04 AM Rating: Default
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Well I read The Welcome Back Campaign again, I get what you are saying, they can't talk in the forums unless they sub. Nevermind my backfired attempt at comedy. But should maybe get one part of the forum to communicate in? Like the "Welcome Back Campaign Board."
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#34 May 07 2012 at 1:12 AM Rating: Good
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RicoJalapeno wrote:
Well I read The Welcome Back Campaign again, I get what you are saying, they can't talk in the forums unless they sub. Nevermind my backfired attempt at comedy. But should maybe get one part of the forum to communicate in? Like the "Welcome Back Campaign Board."


So they actually made it where people who are trying the game again for 10 days cant post on the forums unless they fork over some cash? Wow SE reeeeealy knows how to be extremely off putting.

Host a beta dont listen to player feedback

Release terrible game 90% of the population leaves.

Have Welcome Back campaign dont allow people trying the game out for the 10 day trial to give feedback.

??????

Profit!!
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#35 May 07 2012 at 1:47 AM Rating: Good
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Meh, who cares? Imo there's a roadmap laid out for FFXIV going forward to 2.0 and newcomers or otherwise aren't going to change much at this point. I do think the mentality of the forum goers is retarded: "its my game, don't touch it."
#36 May 07 2012 at 5:53 AM Rating: Good
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
The same thing happened in alpha testing when they'd add a new wave and also just before they opened up beta testing. There was a large part of the small alpha community who would point out the date they were added to testing as if being there before someone else gave you some sort of weight to sling around and made your opinion more important.


If they actually had as much clout and influence as they thought they had, they ought to be ashamed of themselves for the state of the game launch. Personally, I don't think they really had that much to do with the outcome. But any way you look at it, they weren't much help at all.

kyara10 wrote:
Meh, who cares? Imo there's a roadmap laid out for FFXIV going forward to 2.0 and newcomers or otherwise aren't going to change much at this point. I do think the mentality of the forum goers is retarded: "its my game, don't touch it."


I don't think every Lodestone forum goer is like that, but the ones who are will be doing their best to ruin 2.0 for newcomers, even though it's against their own interest (i.e. no subscribers, no game!)
#37 May 07 2012 at 7:08 AM Rating: Good
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LillithaFenimore wrote:
Quote:
The majority opinion is that the voice should be heard, but heard in it's own section to prevent pointless bickering and arguing.


Hyr,
True, but you know as well as I do that you and I frequent the lodestone forums and there is already senseless bickering that goes on amongst even the legit players. In a way opening it up to the general public I don't think would hurt it anymore than the paying players do already in a way.

People there still troll. You are going to have trolls no matter what if that is what you are afraid of.


I'm not worried that people will still troll. I'm worried that the imaginary faction lines that people are already drawing (See Filthy and the OP.) Will cloud the feedback that the players who are returning back will give.

Giving them their own form limits this particular argument, focuses consentration on a particular kind of feedback, and gives accurate data.

If the forums end up sounding similar along the same argumentative dividing lines and trollish debating and the same dichotomy of feedback - then we'll have proven that the experience of the forms between these so-called 'two groups' is similar and there's no point in dividing them further, and maybe get the forums unlocked again in time for the 2.0 beta.


I personally expect it to devolve into a the usual debates of casual vs hardcore and FFXIV vs FFXI-2, as that's been the course of discussion for any conversation concerning the game - still.
#38 May 07 2012 at 7:55 AM Rating: Decent
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Xoie wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
The same thing happened in alpha testing when they'd add a new wave and also just before they opened up beta testing. There was a large part of the small alpha community who would point out the date they were added to testing as if being there before someone else gave you some sort of weight to sling around and made your opinion more important.


If they actually had as much clout and influence as they thought they had, they ought to be ashamed of themselves for the state of the game launch. Personally, I don't think they really had that much to do with the outcome. But any way you look at it, they weren't much help at all.


SE didn't take into account any of the feedback from those forums. I wish I could have saved them somehow, but take my word for it; they're still fixing problems now that were posted on those forums what is now over two years ago. The only thing to be ashamed of is on the side of the developers. Some of the concepts and ideas they tried to present in XIV don't reflect a developer with a year of experience, much less decades. That said, the majority of the people slinging weight there were rabid fanboys and didn't realize that XIV would leave a skidmark and not a mark on the MMO industry.

tbc... class time =/
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#39 May 07 2012 at 8:19 AM Rating: Good
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Xoie wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
The same thing happened in alpha testing when they'd add a new wave and also just before they opened up beta testing. There was a large part of the small alpha community who would point out the date they were added to testing as if being there before someone else gave you some sort of weight to sling around and made your opinion more important.


If they actually had as much clout and influence as they thought they had, they ought to be ashamed of themselves for the state of the game launch. Personally, I don't think they really had that much to do with the outcome. But any way you look at it, they weren't much help at all.


SE didn't take into account any of the feedback from those forums. I wish I could have saved them somehow, but take my word for it; they're still fixing problems now that were posted on those forums what is now over two years ago. The only thing to be ashamed of is on the side of the developers. Some of the concepts and ideas they tried to present in XIV don't reflect a developer with a year of experience, much less decades. That said, the majority of the people slinging weight there were rabid fanboys and didn't realize that XIV would leave a skidmark and not a mark on the MMO industry.

tbc... class time =/


My point was that it's never the role of public testers to make design decisions and any of them who act all important should really put a sock in it. That late in the process, it's very hard to make sweeping changes, so unless there was an unusual case of unanimity, things weren't going to change much at all.

I have no doubt that people were pointing out the game needed more time in development before launch. Pretty much everyone who saw it felt that way on some level. It's not really the public testers' fault because they had almost no influence (maybe some "alpha" testers confirmed that the original combat system sucked as much as the developers already believed it did--that's about as intense as it got). It's not really the developers' fault because they did as much as they could in the time in they had. It's the fault of the people who demanded the launch in September 2010 come **** or high water only to realize that going to **** was a mistake after all.
#40 May 07 2012 at 3:05 PM Rating: Good
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Hyrist wrote:
I'm not worried that people will still troll. I'm worried that the imaginary faction lines that people are already drawing (See Filthy and the OP.) Will cloud the feedback that the players who are returning back will give.


If you are worried that 'imaginary lines'(which would actually be pronounced by segregating the playerbase) will cloud feedback, then why segregate at all? I can't tell if you're trying to make the point for us or being sarcastic. As stated before, all of these players have played XIV before. It's not like you have a bunch of inexperienced noobs coming back to a game that has been completely overhauled. Reminder: Feedback is an opinion, not 'accurate data'.

Xoie wrote:
My point was that it's never the role of public testers to make design decisions and any of them who act all important should really put a sock in it. That late in the process, it's very hard to make sweeping changes, so unless there was an unusual case of unanimity, things weren't going to change much at all.


I understand the point, but testers should influence design decisions. Most of what you have now was or is still broken and needed to be addressed. No developer wants to be told by players how to make their game but like it or not, those players are your customers and the reason you have a job in the first place. I would say hundreds of forum pages of feedback satisfies the requisite 'case of unanimity' that would be required and as a result, we saw apologies, firings and the sweeping changes that are planned for the game come next year.

The only question in my mind is whether or not it will be too late. My instinct pre-release said yes and the effect of the failed launch, the stigma it carries and the popularity of the competition all make it even harder now for me to think it could turn around, despite the fact that I really want it to.




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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#41 May 07 2012 at 4:30 PM Rating: Good
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eh, the forums were a poison pit last I checked. I probably wouldn't use them regardless, but segregating out feedback from newly returned players is a really terrible idea.
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#42 May 08 2012 at 1:03 AM Rating: Good
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Olorinus wrote:
eh, the forums were a poison pit last I checked. I probably wouldn't use them regardless, but segregating out feedback from newly returned players is a really terrible idea.


I'm not sure whether these returning players will be able to use the forums or not (depending on SE's policy), but if they are, the administrators will be able to tell if they are returning players if that's at all an important consideration for their feedback. More importantly, I think these returning players should be able to ask the more experienced ones for help with their gameplay questions, not be boxed in with the equally clueless.
#43 May 08 2012 at 6:59 AM Rating: Good
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Ostia wrote:
So because a few people might say "GW2 RULES!!" it's ok to divide the community and deprive the dev's from actually the most important feedback they can get, wish is "Hey your game lacks this and this is why i will not sub for it"

Oh and swotor is doing just fine, unless 1.5-1.7million subs are bad.....


Make that 1.3 million. They lost 23% of their subs since February.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-05-07-star-wars-the-old-republic-has-lost-400-000-subs-since-february

I don't think you can call this development all too good.

As for dividing the community: why? We already had quite a number of people in here for the sole purpose of telling others that FFXIV sucks, that FFXIV will fail as well and why other games are/will be much, much better. We should be used to that kind of "constructive criticism". Let them, and hopefully SE will get a whole lot of valuable feedback as well.
#44 May 08 2012 at 9:58 AM Rating: Decent
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How can you call the people who peaked at 1.7 million and currently have 1.3 million users "Not all too good development." And the people who peaked at 50 THOUSAND users "Good development." Now i am not talking about you personally but in general.

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#45 May 08 2012 at 10:50 AM Rating: Decent
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Xoie wrote:
the administrators will be able to tell if they are returning players if that's at all an important consideration for their feedback. More importantly, I think these returning players should be able to ask the more experienced ones for help with their gameplay questions, not be boxed in with the equally clueless.


I'm not sure why it isn't sinking in for people, but ALL of the players coming from this campaign are returning players. They all purchased XIV and they all had an active account at some point. It's not like you're unleashing a ton of noobs on the forums that will be spamming threads that were answered two years ago...
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#46 May 08 2012 at 2:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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Ostia wrote:
How can you call the people who peaked at 1.7 million and currently have 1.3 million users "Not all too good development." And the people who peaked at 50 THOUSAND users "Good development." Now i am not talking about you personally but in general.



I don't think that under the the current circumstances it is all too healthy to sweep this nasty development under the carpet by looking at how other games have been doing. Gaming has not been hit by an earthquake or a very sudden genre specific change in popularity so we won't have to compare losses. Just take the game and look at its numbers.

Now if a game that has been released a week before Christmas reaches 1.7 million players in February and loses 400,000 players in the months after, reaching the 1.3 million on in May, then - unless you want it to lose customers of course - does that sound like a good development to you? Do you think that losing customers rapidly (we are not talking about losing 23% over 3 years, no, we are talking about losing 23% over 3 months make the people over at ~~ SWTOR headquarters ~~ happy? You think they are planning an office party because of this?

Really. I do not know who mentioned the words "good development" and what the context was, but I don't believe that anyone will deny the fact that FFXIV has not been a success at all. But if the game is changing, and more players start to become excited about its content and because of it its players base is growing again, then regardless of the number of players you could label such a development as good. Whether it is good enough is a whole other question.

I never played SWTOR, but for a game that has been receiving so many good reviews in this very same forum it sure took quite a big hit in such a short time.
#47 May 08 2012 at 2:51 PM Rating: Good
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FWIW I thought that (well I still do) when they did the last poll that people paying and those who weren't should have separate polls. As to forums, I say BS. Let the moderators work overtime, if you're playing the CURRENT game you're entitled to an opinion voiced on the current forums.

I also think that those who use the welcome back campaign should be given the chance to voice their concerns upon termination of the 30 days whether they ante up and start to pay or not.

It would be nice to see what the average joe (ie non-forum poster) has to think about the current state of the game. I think some of us are too focused on what was wrong in the last patch and whats great in the current patch that we lose sight of what's wrong with the game vs the rest of the MMO market.

I played two newish MMOs since XIV released, I subbed to one for 3 months and quit, and swallowed the 50 bucks and left after 30 days on the other one. If we're not careful XIV will start to mirror WoW, which wouldn't be a bad thing for some... but as ToR is starting to prove, it's not enough for many. I don't have the time I did for XI, but I want something different than WoW in every way possible while not being as party-centric (ie search for hours on end and accomplish nothing if not in a high end LS) as XI. One of the MMOs I played had the chance to be that game, it wasn't. XIV had the chance and blew it on all accounts, yet here I am still playing and not playing the other two major MMO's. I WILL likely purchase GW2, GW1 was an excellent second MMO due to its sub style. If things don't work out in 2.0 I'm not sure that my 1st MMO will be XIV. We'll see.

As to people's voices, as a paying consumer I'd like to see why my fellow gamers aren't playing. I'd also like to not see them chased away by white knights and trolls, so I can understand folks wanting them to have a private forum. Either way it's gonna be a slippery slope for SE. Hopefully the community can pull together and be as awesome as XI's was renowned for compared to other MMOs of the time.
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#48 May 08 2012 at 5:17 PM Rating: Decent
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MrMissile wrote:
Now if a game that has been released a week before Christmas reaches 1.7 million players in February and loses 400,000 players in the months after, reaching the 1.3 million on in May, then - unless you want it to lose customers of course - does that sound like a good development to you?


XIV lost 90% of it's playerbase while it was still free to play. The number of players sweater lost is higher than the total number of players logging in to XIV. The main thing that stands out to me when considering this comparison is that if you were to log in to sweater you'd find the world lively. The same cannot be said for XIV.
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#49 May 09 2012 at 1:15 AM Rating: Decent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Xoie wrote:
the administrators will be able to tell if they are returning players if that's at all an important consideration for their feedback. More importantly, I think these returning players should be able to ask the more experienced ones for help with their gameplay questions, not be boxed in with the equally clueless.


I'm not sure why it isn't sinking in for people, but ALL of the players coming from this campaign are returning players. They all purchased XIV and they all had an active account at some point. It's not like you're unleashing a ton of noobs on the forums that will be spamming threads that were answered two years ago...


Yes, I do believe I referred to them as "returning players." But as the Zam forums show, usually returning players want to know about how all the changes work since they've left. I think that's mostly what they'd be using the Lodestone for too. But it would be hard to get advice on what all the changes are if all they could do was talk to other people who weren't there for all the changes.
#50 May 09 2012 at 1:53 AM Rating: Decent
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Sorry... I just realized that I don't want to get into this.

If the intentions are good, I welcome any opinion. Why wouldn't I?

Edited, May 9th 2012 4:15am by Woofdram
#51 May 09 2012 at 2:12 AM Rating: Decent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
XIV lost 90% of it's playerbase while it was still free to play. The number of players sweater lost is higher than the total number of players logging in to XIV. The main thing that stands out to me when considering this comparison is that if you were to log in to sweater you'd find the world lively. The same cannot be said for XIV.


Mr. McNasty, were you one of those kids who explained his bad grades by pointing at the grades other kids were having?

But I'll repeat my point one more time - call it an encore:

Regardless of the developments in any other game, losing 23% of your players base in three months is not good.

So whether FFXIV had a billion players (or, say, 10 players) after its release and saw it decrease to, say 2 within a week time or not... those numbers do not make the developments at SWTOR disappear. If you date an very ugly girl, then it is YOU who is in bed with a hideous creature at the end of the day, regardless of the fact that I am dating a girl that is even more hideous.

We can also do this with food if you want. If your mommy makes you eat your vegetables, then it is YOU who has to eat his vegetables, regardless of the question whether my mom is making me eat a plate of vegetables twice the size of yours or not.

And here, a last one, just for the road: if you have to go to jail for 20 years for murder, the you have to sit behind bars for 20 Christmas trees... a sentence that has nothing to do with my sentence of 30 years for jaywalking.

Unless... pointing out that other people are worse off then you makes you feel better of course. It doesn't change your situation at all though.

You know, I'll ask my 5 yo nephew if Sesame Street did a thing on the concept. They must have.
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