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#52 May 09 2012 at 3:25 AM Rating: Decent
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MrMissile wrote:

But I'll repeat my point one more time - call it an encore:

Regardless of the developments in any other game, losing 23% of your players base in three months is not good.


Mr. McMissile,
I think Mr. McfNasty is not entirely wrong using relative standards. If I get a good grade when everybody else gets an even better one, I feel bad. When I get a moderate grade while the rest of the class fails completely, I am pretty convinced the test was unreasonable - and I am pretty **** good. Likewise, when the majority of MMOs loses 50% of their playerbase within a week`s time, and mine retains 75% for half a year, I did something right. It`s pretty natural that not all of those who bought the game to try it or who received it as a christmas present will continue to pay for it after the free trials.

The standard you have to use in that context is the relative one, not the absolute one. If your MMO retains considerably more players than the majority of other MMOs on the market, you`re not doing half bad. Of course we would like to see "solid growth". But SW is a front-loaded product; high initial frequency of commercials, closely tied to a major franchise (Star Wars) etc. All of that will attract many initial players who may not really be interested in playing a good MMO per se, but just in trying out that advertised/franchise product. It`s unreasonable to assume the slow effects of word of mouth alone could counter the expectable initial drop-out quota... isn`t it?
#53 May 09 2012 at 8:24 AM Rating: Good
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Rinsui wrote:
MrMissile wrote:
The standard you have to use in that context is the relative one, not the absolute one.


I don't have to use anything relative. Someone mentioned a playerbase of 1.5-1.7 million while I posted new numbers that tells us that the game lost 400k players and - given the current cirumstances - that development is not a good one.

You do not expect "wonderful", "spectacular", "interesting", "modern" games "of the future" with "an endless amount of content" to lose 23% of all its players in only a few months time. We're talking about the fastest growing game with its 1 million players in the first 3 days. And mind that when it was released it was in a way, way better shape than FFXIV. Lots of advertisement. It would drag away lots of players from WoW.

Look at things now. SWTOR took a big hit, and no one at SWTOR will go "Oh, well, we have to look at the relative numbers" either. They're probably going: "Why weren't we able to keep those 400k players?"

And guess what? Do not expect any official (or unofficial for that matter) reply that says: "We are satisfied because a game like FFXIV has lost more players".

So far for seeing things from a relative point of view.


Edited, May 9th 2012 10:47am by MrMissile
#54 May 09 2012 at 8:45 AM Rating: Good
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- Let's not post things twice -

Edited, May 9th 2012 10:48am by MrMissile
#55 May 09 2012 at 9:14 AM Rating: Decent
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MrMissile wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
XIV lost 90% of it's playerbase while it was still free to play. The number of players sweater lost is higher than the total number of players logging in to XIV. The main thing that stands out to me when considering this comparison is that if you were to log in to sweater you'd find the world lively. The same cannot be said for XIV.


Mr. McNasty, were you one of those kids who explained his bad grades by pointing at the grades other kids were having?


Keeping with the grades analogy, sweater did the equivalent of dropping from an A to a B. No one is saying that is a good thing, just that you are making it sound much worse than it is. SWtoR is still considered a successful student and that's my point. We're comparing a student who got a bad grade for a few months to a student that dropped out two @#%^ing years ago. Seriously?

MrMissile wrote:
call it an encore


Someone should have been here to make you pinky shake on that...

Edited, May 9th 2012 12:46pm by FilthMcNasty
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#56 May 09 2012 at 2:45 PM Rating: Default
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Keeping with the grades analogy, sweater did the equivalent of dropping from an A to a B. No one is saying that is a good thing, just that you are making it sound much worse than it is. SWtoR is still considered a successful student and that's my point. We're comparing a student who got a bad grade for a few months to a student that dropped out two @#%^ing years ago. Seriously?


No, I did not compare any game with any other game. I know that you need to introduce a comparison if you want to use SWTOR's decline of its playersbase in order to make look FFXIV bad once more, but just don't make it come over like it was me who introduced it. On the contrary! And I am not going to either, an it is all explained in an earlier post.

SWTOR lost 400,000 players in three months, ok? 23% of the total amount of players. This in reply to somebody's positive note on SWTOR's playerbase. I see such a development as Inot positive. There is nothing more to it. Leave it at that.
#57 May 09 2012 at 3:29 PM Rating: Good
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MrMissile wrote:
Ostia wrote:
How can you call the people who peaked at 1.7 million and currently have 1.3 million users "Not all too good development." And the people who peaked at 50 THOUSAND users "Good development." Now i am not talking about you personally but in general.



I don't think that under the the current circumstances it is all too healthy to sweep this nasty development under the carpet by looking at how other games have been doing. Gaming has not been hit by an earthquake or a very sudden genre specific change in popularity so we won't have to compare losses. Just take the game and look at its numbers.

Now if a game that has been released a week before Christmas reaches 1.7 million players in February and loses 400,000 players in the months after, reaching the 1.3 million on in May, then - unless you want it to lose customers of course - does that sound like a good development to you? Do you think that losing customers rapidly (we are not talking about losing 23% over 3 years, no, we are talking about losing 23% over 3 months make the people over at ~~ SWTOR headquarters ~~ happy? You think they are planning an office party because of this?

Really. I do not know who mentioned the words "good development" and what the context was, but I don't believe that anyone will deny the fact that FFXIV has not been a success at all. But if the game is changing, and more players start to become excited about its content and because of it its players base is growing again, then regardless of the number of players you could label such a development as good. Whether it is good enough is a whole other question.

I never played SWTOR, but for a game that has been receiving so many good reviews in this very same forum it sure took quite a big hit in such a short time.


Dude.... FFXIV was released before Christmas and exactly one month after it was dead on the water, it peaked at 50 thousand, and went down to 10-12k it sits at around 20-25 currently 2 years later.

Yeah swotor lost 400K users, but it capped at 1.7 a month after release, it sold 2+ million copies, if you expected the game to have 99.9% retention rate, then you dont know MMO'S. It has done more than well, tell me another mmo other than wow that is doing as good ?
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#58 May 09 2012 at 4:05 PM Rating: Decent
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MrMissile wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Keeping with the grades analogy, sweater did the equivalent of dropping from an A to a B. No one is saying that is a good thing, just that you are making it sound much worse than it is. SWtoR is still considered a successful student and that's my point. We're comparing a student who got a bad grade for a few months to a student that dropped out two @#%^ing years ago. Seriously?


No, I did not compare any game with any other game.


Actually you did. You linked the article showing the decline in SWtoR players, did you not? If you want to back track and try to make it seem like you weren't drawing a comparison though, I'm all for it. Why?

It seems silly to me to compare a game that is considered successful despite losing ~20% of it's paid subscribers to a game that is considered a failure and lost ~90% of it's playerbase while it was still free to play.
____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#59 May 10 2012 at 1:00 AM Rating: Good
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Ostia wrote:


Dude.... FFXIV was released before Christmas and exactly one month after it was dead on the water, it peaked at 50 thousand, and went down to 10-12k it sits at around 20-25 currently 2 years later.

Yeah swotor lost 400K users, but it capped at 1.7 a month after release, it sold 2+ million copies, if you expected the game to have 99.9% retention rate, then you dont know MMO'S. It has done more than well, tell me another mmo other than wow that is doing as good ?


Wait, so it peaked at +2 million after Christmas? That would mean that it lost more than 700k players in 5 months. Ouch. I do not expect a 99.9% retention rate, but for such an awesome game - well... if I have to believe the posts on the FINAL FANTASY XIV FORUM (!!!) - I would have predicted GROWTH! But ****... a decrease of 700k from, say, 2 million is 35% ... that's a 65% retention rate, right?

Guess SWTOR was what economists call a bubble, kinda.

FilthMcNasty wrote:
Actually you did. You linked the article showing the decline in SWtoR players, did you not?


I posted a link of an article stating that SWTOR lost 400k of its players yes. I didn't link it to FFXIV's figures in any kind of way. The only thing that comes close to any kind of comparison is me explaining Ostia that, in general, a game that sees a growth in players - regardless of its playerbase in absolute numbers - is basically a good development. If you want to disagree with that, then be my guest.

I'm sorry, Filth. Maybe the next guy will engage in some meaningless discussion that gives you every opportunity to wreck SE, make fun of FFXIV and - as always - end up with numerous should haves and could haves before you peddle up your usual conclusion, namely that FFXIV has failed, is failing and will fail once more.

I salute you, Filth! And don't worry, I am sure that you will get lots of other opportunities to unleash your usual ammo.



Edited, May 10th 2012 3:19am by MrMissile
#60 May 10 2012 at 7:52 AM Rating: Decent
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MrMissile wrote:
Ostia wrote:


Dude.... FFXIV was released before Christmas and exactly one month after it was dead on the water, it peaked at 50 thousand, and went down to 10-12k it sits at around 20-25 currently 2 years later.

Yeah swotor lost 400K users, but it capped at 1.7 a month after release, it sold 2+ million copies, if you expected the game to have 99.9% retention rate, then you dont know MMO'S. It has done more than well, tell me another mmo other than wow that is doing as good ?


Wait, so it peaked at +2 million after Christmas? That would mean that it lost more than 700k players in 5 months. Ouch. I do not expect a 99.9% retention rate, but for such an awesome game - well... if I have to believe the posts on the FINAL FANTASY XIV FORUM (!!!) - I would have predicted GROWTH! But ****... a decrease of 700k from, say, 2 million is 35% ... that's a 65% retention rate, right?

Guess SWTOR was what economists call a bubble, kinda.

FilthMcNasty wrote:
Actually you did. You linked the article showing the decline in SWtoR players, did you not?


I posted a link of an article stating that SWTOR lost 400k of its players yes. I didn't link it to FFXIV's figures in any kind of way. The only thing that comes close to any kind of comparison is me explaining Ostia that, in general, a game that sees a growth in players - regardless of its playerbase in absolute numbers - is basically a good development. If you want to disagree with that, then be my guest.

I'm sorry, Filth. Maybe the next guy will engage in some meaningless discussion that gives you every opportunity to wreck SE, make fun of FFXIV and - as always - end up with numerous should haves and could haves before you peddle up your usual conclusion, namely that FFXIV has failed, is failing and will fail once more.

I salute you, Filth! And don't worry, I am sure that you will get lots of other opportunities to unleash your usual ammo.



Edited, May 10th 2012 3:19am by MrMissile


You need reading comprehension 101, it sold 2 million boxes, but after the first month only 1.7 million subbed for subscription, that extra 300, does not meter. As for you point in growth, this game peaked at 50K then it went down in the low ten's and now it has around 20-25k, it has not Grown.
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#61 May 10 2012 at 8:17 AM Rating: Decent
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MrMissile wrote:
I'm sorry, Filth. Maybe the next guy will engage in some meaningless discussion that gives you every opportunity to wreck SE, make fun of FFXIV and - as always - end up with numerous should haves and could haves before you peddle up your usual conclusion, namely that FFXIV has failed, is failing and will fail once more.

Regardless of what I think about XIV, the facts are the facts. Regardless of whatever math you want to work, SWtoR is successful and XIV is not. It's ironic you're carrying on about how poorly you think SWtoR is doing in a forum for a game that failed.

I give SE credit for trying to work on their game and make it something the players could one day be proud to say they play, in part, because I feel sorry for the stubborn ones like you who are still bitter and can't help the fact that everything they post comes out defensive. I too had a denial period, but it lasted about five weeks and it was over going on two years ago...

Edited, May 10th 2012 10:18am by FilthMcNasty
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#62 May 10 2012 at 10:58 PM Rating: Decent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Regardless of what I think about XIV, the facts are the facts.


Indeed. And we are not talking about exchange rates here. We are talking about an individual game. At least I was.

I think we have exchanged views on this long enough, right? Now please... without jabs and uppercuts, quickly: what do you think Tera will do?
#63 May 11 2012 at 1:02 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Indeed. And we are not talking about exchange rates here. We are talking about an individual game. At least I was.

Well, you were talking about an isolated part of an interconnected phenomenon. Not very far-sighted...
#64 May 11 2012 at 5:57 AM Rating: Excellent
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Rinsui wrote:
MrMissile wrote:

But I'll repeat my point one more time - call it an encore:

Regardless of the developments in any other game, losing 23% of your players base in three months is not good.


Mr. McMissile,
I think Mr. McfNasty is not entirely wrong using relative standards. If I get a good grade when everybody else gets an even better one, I feel bad. When I get a moderate grade while the rest of the class fails completely, I am pretty convinced the test was unreasonable - and I am pretty **** good. Likewise, when the majority of MMOs loses 50% of their playerbase within a week`s time, and mine retains 75% for half a year, I did something right. It`s pretty natural that not all of those who bought the game to try it or who received it as a christmas present will continue to pay for it after the free trials.

The standard you have to use in that context is the relative one, not the absolute one. If your MMO retains considerably more players than the majority of other MMOs on the market, you`re not doing half bad. Of course we would like to see "solid growth". But SW is a front-loaded product; high initial frequency of commercials, closely tied to a major franchise (Star Wars) etc. All of that will attract many initial players who may not really be interested in playing a good MMO per se, but just in trying out that advertised/franchise product. It`s unreasonable to assume the slow effects of word of mouth alone could counter the expectable initial drop-out quota... isn`t it?


Hush, WoW lost less than a million due to SW:TOR, which was less than 10% of their 8 years old game, and people already praised SW:TOR at that time as WoW killer. Relatively WoW could have laugh its *** off SW for such thing, such a puny puny "threat". Relatively you can't call SW:TOR successful, because majority of its total player base come from less than 10% of an 8 years old game. Relatively we can argue relativity all relatively long day.
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#65 May 11 2012 at 6:06 AM Rating: Default
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Rinsui wrote:
Quote:
Indeed. And we are not talking about exchange rates here. We are talking about an individual game. At least I was.

Well, you were talking about an isolated part of an interconnected phenomenon. Not very far-sighted...


You just cannot stand the fact that I did not feed the troll in you.

Look at my initial post in this thread. A perfectly fine reply to a perfectly post from somebody who hasn't seen the latest figures on SWTOR yet.
#66 May 11 2012 at 7:33 AM Rating: Good
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Hyrist wrote:
I'm not worried that people will still troll. I'm worried that the imaginary faction lines that people are already drawing (See Filthy and the OP.) Will cloud the feedback that the players who are returning back will give.


If you are worried that 'imaginary lines'(which would actually be pronounced by segregating the playerbase) will cloud feedback, then why segregate at all? I can't tell if you're trying to make the point for us or being sarcastic. As stated before, all of these players have played XIV before. It's not like you have a bunch of inexperienced noobs coming back to a game that has been completely overhauled. Reminder: Feedback is an opinion, not 'accurate data'.



And feedback marred in internal debate clouds the feedback.

To explain: There is internal disagreement between me as the Socialist and me as the Observer, so I'm of two different opinions:

Socially, the dividing line between a paying gamer and a non-playing gamer is imaginary. We're all gamers, period. Callously calling all those who are not paying right now haters and those who are paying right now fanbois is a divide conceived by the players, and thus imaginary. If we were to take that point on its face, I'd be agreeing with you on not having a social divide at all.

But Scientifically, the factual difference between players is possible perspectives, and to get accurate feedback, you don't mix those variables in experiments. And what is this Welcome Back campaign if not an experiment to see how returning players react to the current changes - kind of like asking for a progress report from two people - one who as seen the work as it progressed and one who has not. That sort of feedback should be separated and analyzed for differences. You can say that this sort or method of value may not hold any worth, but I flatly disagree.

So while I personally would not mind it if we mingled the 'groups' - I understand the reasoning for keeping them separate from an observational point of view, and support it.

In the end - less arguing and more direct feedback. I've always been in support of those concepts.



On a side note to the derail argument: There's no point in arguing SWTOR's successes and failures here as the situations are literally opposite. SWTOR started successfully and fell into decline. FFXIV failed in it's initial debut and is trying to crawl its way back up. The solutions to both of these situations are completely different.



Edited, May 11th 2012 9:39am by Hyrist
#67 May 11 2012 at 7:59 AM Rating: Good
At least Star Wars made about 100,000,000$ on box sales alone and close to 30,000,000$ in subs in the first couple months alone. The games been active almost 6 months now, so they've probably already made back dev. costs or close to it. So if the game can hover around 500,000 players, it'll be gold. Not saying TOR is the better game, but they definitely have a strong base to get things up to snuff now. Where as with XIV, you wonder if it will ever become profitable within the next 5 years.
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#68 May 11 2012 at 8:13 AM Rating: Good
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Irrelevant to the topic, but I'd say that Yoshi and crew are gambling on getting a stable base larger than what they have with the coming of 2.0.

But Logically I think they understand that the game is going to run like a lamed chocobo financially for quite a while. Even if 2.0 is a much, much better game, they're fighting against a serious reputation marr. It will take a lot longer than just the re-release for them to recover their losses. However, I do feel as if they will recover their losses ultimately. However, how successful they will be after that point will be up to whether or not Yoshi can keep up this new business policy of being an active part of the community. Ultimately, that will be what help the loyalty of those who do stick around.

In the end, any profits made by this game will be made in the long term.
#69 May 11 2012 at 6:18 PM Rating: Good
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Montsegurnephcreep wrote:
At least Star Wars made about 100,000,000$ on box sales alone and close to 30,000,000$ in subs in the first couple months alone. The games been active almost 6 months now, so they've probably already made back dev. costs or close to it. So if the game can hover around 500,000 players, it'll be gold. Not saying TOR is the better game, but they definitely have a strong base to get things up to snuff now. Where as with XIV, you wonder if it will ever become profitable within the next 5 years.


Box sales = 70% retailer 30% publisher. That's why EA is so adamant in competing against Steam (Steam 30% publisher 70%) because selling through Origins mean 100% profit for them. They probably made about 1/2 of the dev cost now, not close to full but that's still impressive given how much money they poured into this.
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#70 May 12 2012 at 5:26 PM Rating: Default
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MrMissile wrote:
Now please... without jabs and uppercuts, quickly: what do you think Tera will do?

I'm not sure what you mean by this question. What will TERA do about what?
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
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