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When and where are the level up parties?Follow

#1 May 10 2012 at 7:43 PM Rating: Good
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I just got back into the game looking for some level up parties around 25-33; I've been doing leves and it's getting kinda old.
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#2 May 10 2012 at 7:45 PM Rating: Good
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spitfiredd1 wrote:
I just got back into the game looking for some level up parties around 25-33; I've been doing leves and it's getting kinda old.


From what I've read/heard, they aren't that common due to the whole PL/topheavy50 situation.
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#3 May 10 2012 at 9:54 PM Rating: Good
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It's an issue with most of the playerbase having all/most of their jobs at 50 already. PLing isn't an issue like people lead others to believe. You'll only see players being PL by people who usually end up as real life friends. I rarely see people getting PLed. You'll find parties within that range, but they aren't all that common. With the new server merge they are more common and if you hang around uldah long enough, you'll see someone shout for it. If you are interested in grind parties, it would be much much faster if you try to form it up yourself. Just shout in uldah and you'll find enough people. It's hit or miss sometimes though. Sometimes there just aren't enough people within that level range. You'll mainly see party shouts for 35 or 40+.
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#4 May 10 2012 at 10:06 PM Rating: Decent
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yeah only at the min 30+ for exp partys because of PLing
#5 May 11 2012 at 9:31 AM Rating: Excellent
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There's nothing more boring than solo grinding. I may as well go play a single player RPG. The only reason FFXI was bearable was because partying was fun. FFXIV's repetitive, low implementation cost excuse for quests (leves) can't compete with MMOs that have a serious quest-based advancement system.

If FFXIV doesn't recapture the same party dynamics of FFXI it will never succeed.
#6 May 11 2012 at 9:57 AM Rating: Excellent
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swisa wrote:
It's an issue with most of the playerbase having all/most of their jobs at 50 already. PLing isn't an issue like people lead others to believe.


Hmm... I wonder whether the two are in any way related... :P
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#7 May 11 2012 at 10:18 AM Rating: Default
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hexaemeron wrote:
spitfiredd1 wrote:
I just got back into the game looking for some level up parties around 25-33; I've been doing leves and it's getting kinda old.


From what I've read/heard, they aren't that common due to the whole PL/topheavy50 situation.


Rumors and wild speculation.

The issue is, it's easy to level solo. What you could do solo matches or beats what you can do in the process of gathering/finding/grinding at an exp party all the way up to to your 40's.

Do not solo 'grind' do Leves. Make sure you do them close to or very slightly above your level (no more than one level above you typically.) You will gain fast EXP.

You CAN do Leves with other people, but typically that's between friends.
#8 May 11 2012 at 10:29 AM Rating: Excellent
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Hyrist wrote:
hexaemeron wrote:
spitfiredd1 wrote:
I just got back into the game looking for some level up parties around 25-33; I've been doing leves and it's getting kinda old.


From what I've read/heard, they aren't that common due to the whole PL/topheavy50 situation.


Rumors and wild speculation.

The issue is, it's easy to level solo. What you could do solo matches or beats what you can do in the process of gathering/finding/grinding at an exp party all the way up to to your 40's.

Do not solo 'grind' do Leves. Make sure you do them close to or very slightly above your level (no more than one level above you typically.) You will gain fast EXP.

You CAN do Leves with other people, but typically that's between friends.


So, in other words, the general lack of parties (for various reasons) is nothing but "rumors and wild speculation," but it's easy to level solo, there's not much of a reason for one to party for most of the leveling process, and one should mostly complete leves on their own. That sounds like the wild speculation is somewhat validated.
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"... he called to himself a wizard, named Gallery, hoping by this means to escape the paying of the fifteen hundred crowns..." (Machen 15)

"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#9 May 11 2012 at 10:35 AM Rating: Excellent
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Which basically sums up to why do I gotta play a MMO by myself?? Doesn't that defeat the purpose of a MMO?
#10 May 11 2012 at 10:36 AM Rating: Good
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I'm sorry guys. I'm not trying to be a negative Nancy or anything here, I'm just really disheartened by what I'm seeing happen to this game. Do you mean to tell me that before the game has even officially launched in playable format (despite the fact that they've been making people pay now for an unfinished product), it's already run into the problems of a game three times it's age? There's already problems with players finding parties in low levels due to a top-heavy player base, lack of low level content, and repetitive grinding for XP...

At this point, by the time the game is in polished state (which I imagine will be a while after the release of 2.0 considering once 2.0 hits, the game will be in a state equivalent to a fresh title just released to the public), it will be using outdated technology. Christ, it's probably doing so now, though I understand they've been doing performance boosts and such. The fact remains, by the time it's "Ready" there will be games on the market that have already far surpassed FFXIV in all areas.

The future's not written, anything could happen. Maybe their business practices will turn out to be genius. But as a former customer, I can say the direction they're headed in will not draw me back to the game, and if the best they can hope is to hold on to a core of die-hard fans, I'm sorry, but they're wasting their money while other companies continue to advance the industry.
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Ealdwulf wrote:
So one of the big downsides of playing PUP, and why almost everyone hates them, is that they all display the wounds of Christ?
Sephrick wrote:
I'd imagine it as descretely reaching around said person, not screaming kamehameha as I use the pld as a trampoline.
dmhlucky wrote:
the curse of good DD's is they tend to have less Defense, meaning they get high for more.
Master ketrel wrote:
Its just an emote you sick son of a *****
#11 May 11 2012 at 10:38 AM Rating: Good
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Dizmo wrote:
There's nothing more boring than solo grinding. I may as well go play a single player RPG. The only reason FFXI was bearable was because partying was fun. FFXIV's repetitive, low implementation cost excuse for quests (leves) can't compete with MMOs that have a serious quest-based advancement system.

If FFXIV doesn't recapture the same party dynamics of FFXI it will never succeed.


I 100% agree with you but the catch-22 here is the established playerbase in relation to the game still trying to attract new players and what happens with character development after 1.x runs its course.

There's no official word yet on endgame for the 2.0 launch, but it really does seem as if we're being pushed hard toward 50 before then. Just about every patch has lowered the EXP curve to a certain degree and made it easier and easier to achieve max level with minimal effort. I have no basis for this other than my own intuition, but it seems like the FFXIV 2.0 dev team is ramping everyone up to begin the game at level 50 for 2.0, or at least introduce elements that radically shift the game so that beginning players aren't thrust into a top-heavy player environment.
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#12 May 11 2012 at 10:41 AM Rating: Good
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I leveled up my main classes mostly through partying with my linkshell, I suggest you find one, the official forums are always recruiting.
#13Hyrist, Posted: May 11 2012 at 10:42 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) To invest in the long term? That's the goal of MMOs. Not sit and socialize the grind.
#14 May 11 2012 at 10:46 AM Rating: Excellent
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GailC wrote:
Do you mean to tell me that before the game has even officially launched in playable format (despite the fact that they've been making people pay now for an unfinished product), it's already run into the problems of a game three times it's age? There's already problems with players finding parties in low levels due to a top-heavy player base, lack of low level content, and repetitive grinding for XP...


This has been true of FFXIV for a long time now.

GailC wrote:
At this point, by the time the game is in polished state (which I imagine will be a while after the release of 2.0 considering once 2.0 hits, the game will be in a state equivalent to a fresh title just released to the public), it will be using outdated technology. Christ, it's probably doing so now, though I understand they've been doing performance boosts and such.


The 'technology' behind FFXIV 2.0 has been stated to be not the same as FFXIV, i.e., the Crystal Engine. I don't recall articles detailing out the new engine any further (what it's based on, has it been used for MMORPGs before, etc.)

GailC wrote:
But as a former customer, I can say the direction they're headed in will not draw me back to the game, and if the best they can hope is to hold on to a core of die-hard fans, I'm sorry, but they're wasting their money while other companies continue to advance the industry.


The game right now is almost a self-admitted "leveling curve is insignificant, experience the story through accelerated levels and enjoy the content at 50 while it's still there" - and although that's not the type of MMORPG I enjoy, I'm holding out to see how this is adapted for 2.0.

If FFXIV 2.0 comes and it's simply a graphical overhaul with an insignificant character development through leveling philosophy MMORPG, or this is simply extended to a level cap raise to say 60 ro 70, whereby it's trivial to obtain as such and players are encouraged to faceroll through the levels as fast as possible so "the real game can being", it won't be the MMORPG for me. I understand many may enjoy this and spend countless hours with FFXIV 2.0 as a result and I wish many kudos to them, my dislikes shouldn't be a catalyst for their game decisions.
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#15 May 11 2012 at 10:49 AM Rating: Good
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Hyrist wrote:
They've expedited the path to the content that people in MMO's enjoy the most - the endgame battles? And you're complaining because the social aspect of the grind itself has been removed?

You must have had incredibly pleasant leveling experiences. Cause I remember Valkrum Dooms, Craptacular Crab Parties, Arrow Burns, Mana Burns, Princess Bard/RDM burns as my primary lvling experiences in FFXI, and they were terrible.

Every other MMO experience?

Leveling: Quest Grinding solo.
Social experience: Raids and Endgame, chats in guild channel, guild events, etc.

Usually, leveling has nothing to do with the social experience. It's just something in the way of it.
Here, they've actually made it easy to get to cap, and you're complaining.


Absolutely and unequivocally not true in regards to the Final Fantasy online franchise, and why many of us are complaining and do not enjoy the current MMORPG philosophy you described.

I do not derive most of my enjoyment from endgame battles in MMO's and if the path to such in FFXIV 2.0 is expedited at the expense of a social leveling curve environment, it will not be the MMORPG for me.

Leveling in FFXI was the best part of any MMORPG I've ever played.


Edited, May 11th 2012 1:00pm by Whales
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#16 May 11 2012 at 10:50 AM Rating: Default
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I'll be the jerk that says it:

Make one.

No really. I see shouts all the time in town. Maybe you are out doing leves or soloing so often you don't catch them.
The easiest fix I see is for you to shout and make one.
#17 May 11 2012 at 10:53 AM Rating: Decent
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Whales wrote:
Dizmo wrote:
There's nothing more boring than solo grinding. I may as well go play a single player RPG. The only reason FFXI was bearable was because partying was fun. FFXIV's repetitive, low implementation cost excuse for quests (leves) can't compete with MMOs that have a serious quest-based advancement system.

If FFXIV doesn't recapture the same party dynamics of FFXI it will never succeed.


I 100% agree with you but the catch-22 here is the established playerbase in relation to the game still trying to attract new players and what happens with character development after 1.x runs its course.

There's no official word yet on endgame for the 2.0 launch, but it really does seem as if we're being pushed hard toward 50 before then. Just about every patch has lowered the EXP curve to a certain degree and made it easier and easier to achieve max level with minimal effort. I have no basis for this other than my own intuition, but it seems like the FFXIV 2.0 dev team is ramping everyone up to begin the game at level 50 for 2.0, or at least introduce elements that radically shift the game so that beginning players aren't thrust into a top-heavy player environment.



Um, really?

Dungeon Raids
Legatus Battle
"Frontlines"
"Arena"
More Primal Battles.
Likely more Hamlet Defence
Crystal Tower

I'm really wondering what you're looking for in endgame right now if none of the above counts.

Whales wrote:

Leveling in FFXI was the best part of any MMORPG I've ever played.


You're welcome to go back.

It was absolutely the worst part of my experience. I enjoyed Prommies more than I enjoyed the leveling grind.

As Dr. Mog said, parties exist for those with the forward thinking to make it - but it's just effective to do Leves. It's a Gil source, you can get company seals if you wish that way (after a certain rank ,you can just hunt NMs for items to turn in for seals though.)

The social aspect of the game is not gone, it's just voluntary now. Being able to solo is no longer an option reserved only for select jobs or playstyles. They changed that in FFXI too.

The only thing I can think of from FFXI that they could do to improve the system is add Level Sync so players can help or enjoy time with each other regardless of level.



Edited, May 11th 2012 1:00pm by Hyrist
#18UltKnightGrover, Posted: May 11 2012 at 10:53 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Well, most of the leveling I do is in my linkshell, and I hate to say it, but I'm not going to invite trial members who are only playing for 10 days into a linkshell when there's yet to be a remove member from LS list function.
#19 May 11 2012 at 10:59 AM Rating: Good
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Hyrist wrote:
Whales wrote:
Dizmo wrote:
There's nothing more boring than solo grinding. I may as well go play a single player RPG. The only reason FFXI was bearable was because partying was fun. FFXIV's repetitive, low implementation cost excuse for quests (leves) can't compete with MMOs that have a serious quest-based advancement system.

If FFXIV doesn't recapture the same party dynamics of FFXI it will never succeed.


I 100% agree with you but the catch-22 here is the established playerbase in relation to the game still trying to attract new players and what happens with character development after 1.x runs its course.

There's no official word yet on endgame for the 2.0 launch, but it really does seem as if we're being pushed hard toward 50 before then. Just about every patch has lowered the EXP curve to a certain degree and made it easier and easier to achieve max level with minimal effort. I have no basis for this other than my own intuition, but it seems like the FFXIV 2.0 dev team is ramping everyone up to begin the game at level 50 for 2.0, or at least introduce elements that radically shift the game so that beginning players aren't thrust into a top-heavy player environment.



Um, really?

Dungeon Raids
Legatus Battle
"Frontlines"
"Arena"
More Primal Battles.
Likely more Hamlet Defence
Crystal Tower

I'm really wondering what you're looking for in endgame right now if none of the above counts.



Hm? I'm a bit confused, so I apologize. I never said anything regarding the quality of endgame in FFXIV in my quoted text above. If anything, I think the content at level 50 has improved tremendously for FFXIV since launch.
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#20 May 11 2012 at 11:03 AM Rating: Good
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I was just clarifying that there has been offical word about endgame content for 2.0. They're releasing the parts they can slowly into 1.XX content.

The things we likely won't see till 2.0 and beyond is likely PvP related.

But war with Garlemand is going to probably take the bulk of the early 2.0 PvP, so Legatus will be primary focus, followed by Crystal Tower and more Primal Battles.

I was just curious as to why you thought there was no word on Endgame in 2.0 and wondering if you were expecting anything else beside that which was outlined in the 2.0 ad on lodestone.
#21 May 11 2012 at 11:08 AM Rating: Good
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Whales wrote:
This has been true of FFXIV for a long time now.


; ;

Whales wrote:
The 'technology' behind FFXIV 2.0 has been stated to be not the same as FFXIV, i.e., the Crystal Engine. I don't recall articles detailing out the new engine any further (what it's based on, has it been used for MMORPGs before, etc.)


This makes me feel a little bit better about the situation. At least they recognize this as an issue and they're taking steps to rectify it. It makes you wonder what the **** Tanaka's crew was up to for the 3-some years or whatever it was they were working on the original launch...


Whales wrote:
The game right now is almost a self-admitted "leveling curve is insignificant, experience the story through accelerated levels and enjoy the content at 50 while it's still there" - and although that's not the type of MMORPG I enjoy, I'm holding out to see how this is adapted for 2.0.


I was holding out for a while too, but in the end, once it came time to start paying for the game, I didn't feel the product was worth the price. The game had not advanced sufficiently to warrant a subscription in my view. The details on the new class system were likewise a rough read for me, because they implemented precisely the system I was afraid they would, where your Job is based on your Class, and only certain classes can adopt certain Jobs. Why can a Gladiator not become a Warrior? Why can a Pugilist not become a Bard? Why does a Black Mage need to have 15 levels of pugilist? Yes, I understand the damage-dealer nature of the two jobs (thaumaturge and pugilist), but that's all they really have in common... what does a Pugilist bring to the table that a Black Mage needs?

Ok, I'm tangenting into a rant. I'm sorry man ;) My point is, speaking as a potential return customer, I'm not taking to the direction the game is headed. I'm not implying my opinion makes a damned bit of difference, and to anyone reading, remember it's just my opinion. I'm still calming down a bit from the "wtf?" moment I had when I read about the Legacy Campaign and Hyrist hadn't come by to set me straight on it yet.
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Ealdwulf wrote:
So one of the big downsides of playing PUP, and why almost everyone hates them, is that they all display the wounds of Christ?
Sephrick wrote:
I'd imagine it as descretely reaching around said person, not screaming kamehameha as I use the pld as a trampoline.
dmhlucky wrote:
the curse of good DD's is they tend to have less Defense, meaning they get high for more.
Master ketrel wrote:
Its just an emote you sick son of a *****
#22 May 11 2012 at 11:10 AM Rating: Good
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Hyrist wrote:
You're welcome to go back.


It's not the same. Abyssea destroyed it.

Hyrist wrote:
It was absolutely the worst part of my experience. I enjoyed Prommies more than I enjoyed the leveling grind.


To each their own, I never said it was a requirement for everyone. But there exists a myrriad of MMORPGs out there right now for those who wish to solo through a shallow leveling curve and the real game begins at levelcap. What's wrong with requesting an MMORPG that doesn't adhere to that design philosophy for those of us who don't enjoy it?

Hyrist wrote:
The social aspect of the game is not gone, it's just voluntary now. Being able to solo is no longer an option reserved only for select jobs or playstyles. They changed that in FFXI too.


It's a matter of expectations. I never went into FFXI expecting to solo, I knew that was a social game orientated at group-base player development. Solo play was limited to other actions, upon which I also found enjoyable.

But a MMORPG does not always have to include a soloable leveling curve, that's just the current trend. The aspects of multiplayer online can be sprinkled throughout the game wherever the developers like.

I personally like them to be along a lengthy leveling curve, not an endgame dungeon-based gear grind. The end result is that after X amount of hours your character is Y more developed. In FFXI that was levels, in WoW/Lotro/SWTOR/etc that was item strength. It just comes down to personal preference.
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#23 May 11 2012 at 11:14 AM Rating: Good
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Hyrist wrote:
I was just curious as to why you thought there was no word on Endgame in 2.0 and wondering if you were expecting anything else beside that which was outlined in the 2.0 ad on lodestone.


I was under the impression nothing official regarding the endgame content we have now and how it'll transition into 2.0 had been announced. Is this wrong and is there something I can read about it?
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#24 May 11 2012 at 11:46 AM Rating: Excellent
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Whales wrote:
It's not the same. Abyssea destroyed it.


Not my discussion, but I wanted to chime in and say I agree here. In the short term Abyssea reinvigorated the game, but at the cost of 90% of the games existing content. When I returned to find that leveling consisted of massive alliances killing the same five mobs over and over again in Gusgen mines/Crawler's Nest/Etc.... all I can say is that the aspects of the game that I loved, the reason I came back, was no longer there. All of the leveling I had done was to access content that now no longer had any relevance. Even the level caps seem pointless, I'm not sure why they haven't done away with them completely: at low levels they create massive stopgaps (good luck getting high level players to help you break to 55, for example), at high levels they become repetitive and pointless time sinks (get this many seals, and this many merits).

My main was Warrior, so I was excited to be useful in the new system. I had Axe, Great Axe, Sword, Dagger, Scythe, and Crossbow mostly leveled, with Polearm and Hand to Hand on the way. I was looking forward to picking up Staff and Great Axe and Club.

I played abyssea for a bit, then retired my warrior and just leveled my Ninja in book burns until I quit. Abyssea brought back a lot of players, but I was one of the ones it also drove away.
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Ealdwulf wrote:
So one of the big downsides of playing PUP, and why almost everyone hates them, is that they all display the wounds of Christ?
Sephrick wrote:
I'd imagine it as descretely reaching around said person, not screaming kamehameha as I use the pld as a trampoline.
dmhlucky wrote:
the curse of good DD's is they tend to have less Defense, meaning they get high for more.
Master ketrel wrote:
Its just an emote you sick son of a *****
#25 May 11 2012 at 12:04 PM Rating: Good
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Whales wrote:

It's not the same. Abyssea destroyed it.


Ah.

See here is the major problem with FFXI and how terribly it was designed. It created a polarization among the player base. Abyssea for many is hailed as an absolutely great addition to the game, and it had revitilized the game for many. Yet still there is another camp that feels that the game was absolutely destroied for it.

If FFXI was created with the conventions it had now, the entire player stucture of the game would have developed differently and Abyssea would not have been at all received as a culture shock.

Btw, Abyssea did not kill the game's content. The rise of the level cap did. People were so used to sidegrades that when the power cap actually rose, most of the game's existing content became obsolete.

Yoshi has pretty much made the 'theme park' idea of FFXIV clear. Social elements of the game will likely be event related, rather than grind related. Hopefully this means development will keep the player base more unified in the general opinion/constructs of the game. But it's a tall order to fill.



Whales wrote:
To each their own, I never said it was a requirement for everyone. But there exists a myrriad of MMORPGs out there right now for those who wish to solo through a shallow leveling curve and the real game begins at levelcap. What's wrong with requesting an MMORPG that doesn't adhere to that design philosophy for those of us who don't enjoy it?


Truthfully? The sales rates do. FFXI was a niche game through and through, and you're asking an already ham-stringed game to appeal solely to that niche. I'm sorry but that's a flawed approach.

That's not to say that your desires should not be filled in some manner, but your philosophy is both a dated one and a minority.

Whales wrote:
It's a matter of expectations. I never went into FFXI expecting to solo, I knew that was a social game orientated at group-base player development. Solo play was limited to other actions, upon which I also found enjoyable.

But a MMORPG does not always have to include a soloable leveling curve, that's just the current trend. The aspects of multiplayer online can be sprinkled throughout the game wherever the developers like.

I personally like them to be along a lengthy leveling curve, not an endgame dungeon-based gear grind. The end result is that after X amount of hours your character is Y more developed. In FFXI that was levels, in WoW/Lotro/SWTOR/etc that was item strength. It just comes down to personal preference.


I could agree to a more lenghty gaming curve, but the game would have to be surrounded around that aspect to a degree, and that's again, a very tall order to fill.

To accomplish what you're seeking:

1. There would have to be low-level content throughout entire curve.
2. There would have to be a reason for higher level players to return to this curve to help lower level players and a MEANS of which to do so. (at all stages)
3. The inevitable power-creep would have to be at a SUBSTANTIAL crawl to prevent this curve from choking-out lower level players from higher level content due to disinterest in lower power items and events having higher power requirements.

In the short term (meaning at releace of 2.0) that's simply not happening - as it would take a substantial overhaul of the entire system, again, for it to opperate.

This could happen, however, for post 50 content - though I've a few ideas for either case.

Level Sync: is one, if we want to cap content to keep content replayable without destroying the feel of the content, and having sync to keep the content itself accessable to higher players.

Consumable Rewards: Namely Battle or Event unique meteria, potions, usable abilities (I.E. Primal Summoning.) This will give a reason to go back and challenge these things after completion. (Being 7/7 Primal Weapons won't mean the end of that battle for players if they could Summon Garuda AND receive a Meteria of Gales out of it.)

For Storyline quests: adjustable difficulties - for those interested purely in getting through the grind or experiencing the story (that they can then revisit at higher difficulties for the desired loot. Think Arc Angels vs Divine Might, or the storyline Primal fights vs the Hard Version fights.)

And of course Achievements (Complete x main story quests on hard!)


This would help keep content throughout the levels engaging and desiring, which would then make a higher leveling curve healthier.

However, I will reiderate that the system of grinding levels should be kept group optional. Not everyone has the ease of accessibility to their own countries prime times, or a desire to submit every aspect of their game to everyone else's scruples and expectations.


Edited, May 11th 2012 2:06pm by Hyrist

Edited, May 11th 2012 2:26pm by Hyrist
#26 May 11 2012 at 12:20 PM Rating: Good
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Whales wrote:
Hyrist wrote:
I was just curious as to why you thought there was no word on Endgame in 2.0 and wondering if you were expecting anything else beside that which was outlined in the 2.0 ad on lodestone.


I was under the impression nothing official regarding the endgame content we have now and how it'll transition into 2.0 had been announced. Is this wrong and is there something I can read about it?



http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com/pl/teaser/index.html

This explained everything at the start. Further details of each releaced content will be explained further as we get closer. But the bulk of what we're getting for 2.0 is as follows:

Primal Battles
Primal Summoning System
Dragon Battles of Ishgard
PvP Coliseum
PvP Frontlines
Crystal Tower
Wandering Odin
Labyrinth


As far as existing endgame's existence in the future? Consult the road-map. They're pretty much transfering the content developed here 1:1 with likely minor adjustments to accompany the new gaming engine.

Quote:
Comprehensive Roadmap
■The Road to Version 2.0
・Late November to Early December – Monthly subscription fees begin (PC)
・Late November to Early December – Patch 1.20
・Early February 2012 – Patch 1.21
・February 2012 – Development test server reconstruction complete
・Mid April 2012 – Patch 1.22
・April 2012 – Version 2.0 client system complete
- Commence porting of current game content to version 2.0 client
・June 2012 – Worldwide launch of new promotion trailer at E3
・Early to Mid July 2012 – Patch 1.23
・September to October 2012 – Begin distribution of version 2.0 software for PC
- Begin distribution of PlayStation®3 system beta version
・October to November 2012 – Reinstate limited free trial period for PC version
- Commence PlayStation®3 system closed beta test
・Post-January 2013 – Version 2.0 client (PC and PlayStation®3 system) goes on sale
- Free trial period ends


So you can assume they're already porting content over at this point.

And this of course is ignoring all of the letters from the developers that tend to give progress reports on all that's going on. I take it you are keeping up with those, right?
#27 May 11 2012 at 12:50 PM Rating: Decent
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Hyrist wrote:
However, I will reiderate that the system of grinding levels should be kept group optional. Not everyone has the ease of accessibility to their own countries prime times, or a desire to submit every aspect of their game to everyone else's scruples and expectations.


But that's the crux of the argument, grinding is grinding regardless of if you're doing it at level cap in a dungeon with five other people against a boss encounter for a new sword, or in the world with five other people against regular encounters for a single level.

The reward, to me, is immaterial - if it takes 20 hours to gain a level or 20 hours to get that new sword you've wanted, both rewards provide a sense of satisfaction of accomplishment. Now I do realize that's the minority viewpoint and that modern gamers do prefer a more tangible reward such as the sword for marks of accomplishment.

The end result is you're always subjected to other's "scruples and expectations" in conflict with ease of accessibility when engaging in social context of online games - It's always a social grind with others, the purpose of which is the only thing up in the air, and people have different preferences there.

To dismis a leveling grind because of the same challenges that exist with a dungeon gear-grind just doesn't work - if the bulk of character progression is relegated to endgame social dungeon crawls as opposed to along the leveling curve for TNL EXP, the end result is the same: X amount of character development after Y hours spent in a social environment.

Some of us just prefer that social environment to come along the leveling curve, that's all. There's no right or wrong answer, just personal preference, and the gaming options for those of us that enjoy a substantial and rewarding leveling curve are nonexistent. Some of us had hopes FFXIV would fill that void.

Edited, May 11th 2012 2:52pm by Whales

Edited, May 11th 2012 3:26pm by Whales
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#28 May 11 2012 at 1:07 PM Rating: Good
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Hyrist wrote:
Truthfully? The sales rates do. FFXI was a niche game through and through, and you're asking an already ham-stringed game to appeal solely to that niche. I'm sorry but that's a flawed approach.

That's not to say that your desires should not be filled in some manner, but your philosophy is both a dated one and a minority.


I don't think that's necessarily true.

This is all just my opinion, but we've seen an explosions of MMORPGs since World of Warcraft debuted and revolutionized the genre. Most people attribut this to WoW's gameplay philosophy and have attempted to decry such philosophy as the golden rule of MMORPG gameplay for success.

Yet we've seen countless MMORPGs with similar styles launch and never achieve lasting success. And it's true, when WoW came about its concepts were a breath of fresh air. "Soloing as a viable means of character progression? That's madness and will never work." we said.

But what most people fail to consider is it was the very contrast that made WoW stand out, not the gameplay directly. We were so tired of the "old school" MMORPG philosophy that the newness in WoW made it incredibly fun. Not having to shout for a healer for hours to go kill that turtle over and over again for 1/10 a level, I can go do it as a quest solo and get a substantial reward? This game is fantastic!

I've played just about every major MMORPG between since WoW's launch and can tell you, they aren't as fun as WoW was when it launched because it wasn't directly the gameplay mechanics that made WoW popular, it was because it was different.

We could very well see a major publisher introduce a MMORPG that contradicts this yet again and goes back to traditional MMORPG playstyle and achieves enough popularity to be successful.

People get tired of the same thing over and over again, and we've had the same style of MMORPG all cut from the same cloth introduced for years now. The market is ripe for something different.

Edited, May 11th 2012 3:09pm by Whales
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#29 May 11 2012 at 1:18 PM Rating: Good
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Hyrist wrote:
dnalloh1987 wrote:
Which basically sums up to why do I gotta play a MMO by myself?? Doesn't that defeat the purpose of a MMO?


To invest in the long term? That's the goal of MMOs.


Invest? Games should be about fun, not working on a treadmill for some promise of fun at endgame, which itself just ends up as a grind for gear for the most part anyway. If you don't enjoy grinding, I don't see the point of playing a typical XP-based MMO. If the grind isn't fun in the eyes of the core player base, it shouldn't exist. If levelling up is trivial, why even include it?

The most fun I had with FFXI was the journey and playing with others. Square Enix made a huge mistake in not identifying the real reasons why FFXI was popular and not applying them to FFXIV in my opinion. I don't know if I can expect too much from 2.0. Of course the code's performance needs to be improved, and it'll be interesting to see what the "new" game looks like, but it's the same game. I don't think many people are thinking "if only they'd did a graphical overhaul and made the code more efficient I'd love to play FFXIV".

I really miss FFXI in its heyday. :(
#30 May 11 2012 at 1:23 PM Rating: Good
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I'm just wondering why the concept of substantial and rewarding has to come default with the implied term 'lengthy' and 'forced group'

I'm doing Leves on my Dragoon and I don't feel like I'm unchallenged. I mean litterally sometimes I feel like I'm being ambushed (and sometimes that's litterally the case, and design of the leve.) With each new ability there's a period of adjustment to get used to it, and I feel as if I'm given that time to adjust. And as I progress up and adapt to new abilities, those previous skills are also refined.

Same thing with parties. It only took me one party to get a base-line idea of what I'm to do, and I'll grow more accustomed to it as I continue to. Getting used to the jobs mechanics in general and getting used to using them in a party are two different beasts, similar in the base understanding, but differing in the executions. (Gotta learn how to attack on the move and anticipate the enemy's positioning shifting too.)

At no time did I feel the lack of accomplishment from leveling in this manner, and similarly, I did not feel the sense of exhaustion or public harassment for playing a job that is currently unpopular.


But you seem to think that the concept of Dungeon-Gear crawls is the only means of progression in this game: This would be false. Currently Dungeon Gear is superior, but this is only because Crafting itself is on a revamp. It's already been previously stated that aside from Legacy Weapons, High Quality Crafted Gear melded with Meteria will be next to or ahead of the dungeon curve - because there is substantially more risk involved. So in essence, level IS still going to be what matters here. Dungeon Gear grinding will effectively be done for the challenge and unique rewards.

--------------------

Self example: I work two jobs. That makes my free time often tainted with exhaustion, so I don't always get to events. So, in trade, I focus on one job: Lancer/Dragoon. I will also be leveling the crafts to support this job gear wise. If Yoshi keeps with his word, I will not suddenly be non-inviteable to an event simply because I show up in primarily crafted+melded gear. In fact, the gear I have might actually be superior. We'll see how Yoshi keeps the balance and interest with this concept though.

But should I have to bother people every single time I want to go level Dragoon, especially seeming sometimes that means being up in the morning when there's very few people on? No. I like the freedom to learn at my own pace without having to interact with A-holes hiding behind parse numbers taking pride that they have less of a real life than I do. That's simply my preference. As far as going towards goals and doing events. I found a group that does not like class stacking and is not bias towards the flavor of the month. They're interested in playing the game, not gaming the system.

I understand your preference, but I think you must understand the impact abiding behind that preference will do to the majority. You can still group, you can still party. But understand you're still going to be sitting up there shouting to get a group together (Honestly, how this is different from old School FFXI, I don't know, maybe because people can actually progress without having to sit and wait?) and you can still grind away at camps. It's done. It's more common for higher levels than lower levels, but I've seen level 20 groups gather, and even my LS has a low-level static night going.

But when you do get that party, you'll progress quickly. Beleive me surviving some of those camps when they're during their chaotic times will feel like an accomplishment in and of itself.

You might want to give it a try, actually. I'm not sure you'll be so wanting for the sense of accomplishment and social interaction if you manage to find a group. The level curve (if you can call it that) might seem bad on paper, but I haven't encountered your fears. They might have managed to make quick leveling feel good for you.


On a side note (not about you):
There is this sense of "I'm mad because nobody will play with me. SE, please make them play with me!" complaint that I get every time I hear concerns about soloing through the leveling grind. I don't quite get my head around why people can't be content in making friends because they want to as opposed to 'have to'. I didn't feel forced or compelled to join the guild I'm in. It really wasn't a "Ugh, I've gotta join a Dynamis LS to get my Relic." like FFXI was. It was a "Hey, my friend joined this LS, let's see what they're about." The whole journey feels just a lot less stressful and aggravating.
#31 May 11 2012 at 1:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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Hyrist wrote:
But you seem to think that the concept of Dungeon-Gear crawls is the only means of progression in this game ..


Oh, I'm terribly sorry for the confusion - I absolutely was not referring to just FFXIV in my discussions, more-so the state of MMORPGs in general.

I'm absolutely not qualified to discuss the nuances of endgame in FFXIV because, as you can see from my signature, I have not experienced it. My opinion of FFXIV's gameplay philosophy comes from having been on the leveling curve since launch, that's all. I try to never talk about how good or bad the endgame is, beyond speculating at what 2.0 will bring.

Hyrist wrote:
At no time did I feel the lack of accomplishment from leveling in this manner,


I have, unfortunately :(

Leveling in FFXIV has brought an incredible sense of lack of accomplishment for me, especially compared to FFXI (which is unfair, I admit - this is not FFXI-2), and is why I'm only level 39 at the moment.




Edited, May 11th 2012 3:38pm by Whales
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#32 May 11 2012 at 1:43 PM Rating: Good
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Dizmo wrote:
Hyrist wrote:
dnalloh1987 wrote:
Which basically sums up to why do I gotta play a MMO by myself?? Doesn't that defeat the purpose of a MMO?


To invest in the long term? That's the goal of MMOs.


Invest? Games should be about fun, not working on a treadmill for some promise of fun at endgame, which itself just ends up as a grind for gear for the most part anyway. If you don't enjoy grinding, I don't see the point of playing a typical XP-based MMO. If the grind isn't fun in the eyes of the core player base, it shouldn't exist. If levelling up is trivial, why even include it?

The most fun I had with FFXI was the journey and playing with others. Square Enix made a huge mistake in not identifying the real reasons why FFXI was popular and not applying them to FFXIV in my opinion. I don't know if I can expect too much from 2.0. Of course the code's performance needs to be improved, and it'll be interesting to see what the "new" game looks like, but it's the same game. I don't think many people are thinking "if only they'd did a graphical overhaul and made the code more efficient I'd love to play FFXIV".

I really miss FFXI in its heyday. :(



Really? Again, I didn't. The game was terrible, the people were awesome. That's what made the difference.

Maybe it was the continual burnout at every inane insubstantial bottleneck and time-sink I came across at every corner but if I didn't have such good friends as I did, I would not have lasted nearly as many years.

Here? The gameplay IS fun. But it's fun on my terms. Far less bottlenecks, far less timesinks. If I want to party up? I go looking for or to make a party. If I don't want to deal with gathering or dealing with a party, I go solo. I've got options, lots of them!

I'm not sure you understand the aspect of why FFXI was popular. It wasn't 'the journey' it was the people! It was Calcula and Saskiot, and Dale and Aniero and Sayl and Viceroy and Neelia. These people I both commiserated and celebrated with. Not the fact that I had to wait six hours for a decent pickup party to gather in Valkrum Dunes just so I can level. Or the watching of game clock so I can time my refresh spell properly.

'Leveling' is not what I remember most doing with these people either.


Now? I still got Neelia and Sayl's busy, but he still pops in from time to time. We group up, we chat, we hang out. We have memorable times. (Last week's chocobo race isn't something I'm going to forget for a loong time. *Painfully rubs bum*) And there's more cool people I'm having fun with. So we've got better gameplay for the same awesome companionship.

I'm really wondering if you guys are just pining after nostalgia. Or you genuinely feel as if you need to torment yourself to feel accomplished, or to make friends.
#33 May 11 2012 at 1:46 PM Rating: Good
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Whales wrote:

I have, unfortunately :(

Leveling in FFXIV has brought an incredible sense of lack of accomplishment for me, especially compared to FFXI (which is unfair, I admit - this is not FFXI-2), and is why I'm only level 39 at the moment.




Edited, May 11th 2012 3:38pm by Whales


I haven't done Archer/Bard. I've been playing Dragoon. There's something oddly satisfying in jumping and stabbing and all that jazz. Maybe Ranger Gameplay feels less dynamic?

How would you say crafting is working for you, any change there or just leveling in general has lost it's flair for you? I mean I'm genuinely concerned here but I don't think it's the expediency of it that's causing the loss.
#34 May 11 2012 at 1:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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Hyrist wrote:
I haven't done Archer/Bard. I've been playing Dragoon. There's something oddly satisfying in jumping and stabbing and all that jazz. Maybe Ranger Gameplay feels less dynamic?

How would you say crafting is working for you, any change there or just leveling in general has lost it's flair for you? I mean I'm genuinely concerned here but I don't think it's the expediency of it that's causing the loss.


It's just playstyle preference - I like group support roles and don't enjoy solo grinds. I played a Bard in FFXI and loved it, as well as a healer/tank/support role in all my other MMORPGs, which is why I am pining for a FFXI-type game.

As far as crafting in FFXIV goes, I've attempted a bit here and there to keep up with the demands of Archer, and dabbled in cooking to help bring better experiences to combat, but it's not something that just draws me in. Most notably I think because, like a lot of things in FFXIV, it's extremely top heavy at the moment.

Crafting in FFXI was enjoyable for me because of the progression toward successful economic play in understanding what the most profitable items were. I rarely crafted items for personal use, beyond cooking.

Regardless of the fact that I'm sitting on millions upon millions of gil simply because of dumping my crystals during last year's madness and thus have little use of currency, I find that there's very little economic strategy to crafting and it exists in its current form as more a means to an end for gearing.

I think it's 10,000x better than it was at launch though, and I didn't like the first iteration of complex patterns across dozens of prerequisite craftables and required reliance on other professions to make anything.

Edited, May 11th 2012 4:00pm by Whales
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#35 May 11 2012 at 2:09 PM Rating: Default
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I actually never experienced waiting 6 hours for a party in XI. 90% of the time I could find one within 20 minutes or so.

Granted it should be possible to advance solo, but the focus should be on multiplayer.

I guess I'll give XIV a try again now there's the free period.

Edited, May 11th 2012 4:14pm by Dizmo
#36 May 11 2012 at 2:25 PM Rating: Decent
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Sounds to me like you just don't have an active group together. Darkhold, even totem/feather grinding for Primals should keep you regularly in parties, AND you get group based battling within the fights and runs themselves.

But yes, our experiences were quite the opposite.

In FFXI I was primarily a Red Mage. I'm actually quite notorious for supporting the concept of a front line Red Mage and I found the regiment of forcing a RDM into a healer/back-line support to have been quite aggravating. It was fine and decent when there was a simple goal in mind like a battlefield with a high dangerous monster and me with little defenses, but for grinding? I had a policy of "Melee Fodder, Magic Bosses." and the party mechanics and preferences stifled that. My Fiance at the time was also a WHM and after the implementation of burn parties, we never saw groups together that we didn't make ourselves.

I saw how reliance on parties for EXP choked the life out of them first hand. When mechanics like Level Sync, Besieged, Campaign, Fields and Grounds of Valor came out, it was a sigh of relief for so many. I am sorry that it damaged your enjoyment of the game though.

There's no such conflict here though. Granted, there's no Red Mage yet either - but right now I'm kinda glad for that. The Dulists can take some time off form the gaming limelight.
#37 May 11 2012 at 2:28 PM Rating: Good
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DoctorMog wrote:
I'll be the jerk that says it:

Make one.

No really. I see shouts all the time in town. Maybe you are out doing leves or soloing so often you don't catch them.
The easiest fix I see is for you to shout and make one.


I dunno, I tried speaking several times, and not once did anyone respond. I used to disagree with people who said this game is anti-social/cliquey but having spoken out loud not once but several times last night and not having a single person say anything was a pretty good reason for me not to want to bother trying to make a party.

When I tool around in EQ2 people wave, they say hello, they party up etc.

in XIV, you say "congrats" and nothing. You say "hey are you checking out the game again too" and nothing. You say "hello everyone!" and nothing.

So, I can see why people don't want to spend hours of their fun time trying to build a party in an anti-social game.
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#38 May 11 2012 at 3:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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Olorinus wrote:
in XIV, you say "congrats" and nothing. You say "hey are you checking out the game again too" and nothing. You say "hello everyone!" and nothing.


Haha, one time I offered to help someone in /say and a couple people nearby told me to "keep it in /tell, please."

I can understand not liking insipid political/religious/ethical discussions in /shout, but to get angry that players are conducting in-game business by talking to each other goes well beyond a healthy distaste for annoying conversation. From what I gathered, quite a few people in FFXIV don't just favour quietness, they favour silence. And with attitudes that unfriendly, they may repel enough newbies and have it, eventually - though perhaps not ultimately to their liking or the game's benefit.


Edited, May 11th 2012 5:30pm by KaneKitty
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#39 May 11 2012 at 4:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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I can't remember the number of times I walked up to a group and asked if they had any room for one more. I even asked in both English and Japanese. Still no response.

At least in FFXI people would say "sorry we're full".
#40 May 11 2012 at 8:45 PM Rating: Good
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KaneKitty wrote:
Olorinus wrote:
in XIV, you say "congrats" and nothing. You say "hey are you checking out the game again too" and nothing. You say "hello everyone!" and nothing.


Haha, one time I offered to help someone in /say and a couple people nearby told me to "keep it in /tell, please."

I can understand not liking insipid political/religious/ethical discussions in /shout, but to get angry that players are conducting in-game business by talking to each other goes well beyond a healthy distaste for annoying conversation. From what I gathered, quite a few people in FFXIV don't just favour quietness, they favour silence. And with attitudes that unfriendly, they may repel enough newbies and have it, eventually - though perhaps not ultimately to their liking or the game's benefit.


Edited, May 11th 2012 5:30pm by KaneKitty


This has always been one of my biggest complaints with FFXIV. You see so little signs of... vitality. Of people conversing, of conversation, of ambient noise. It's just.... *crickets*... everywhere... all the time. MMOs are supposed to be virtual worlds, teeming with real people. Not people sitting behind linkshells and shunning people for deigning to speak.
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#41 May 11 2012 at 10:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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Indeed the game has little in the way of chat going for it. One reason I make it a point to speak to people as much as possible, even if I get no reply when I congrat or /clap for someone. It annoys me to see a persons question go unanswered, so I will respond if I have an answer.

About the only /say I have seen lately has been from RP'ers near the leve NPC.
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#42 May 12 2012 at 7:33 AM Rating: Good
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hexaemeron wrote:
KaneKitty wrote:
Olorinus wrote:
in XIV, you say "congrats" and nothing. You say "hey are you checking out the game again too" and nothing. You say "hello everyone!" and nothing.


Haha, one time I offered to help someone in /say and a couple people nearby told me to "keep it in /tell, please."

I can understand not liking insipid political/religious/ethical discussions in /shout, but to get angry that players are conducting in-game business by talking to each other goes well beyond a healthy distaste for annoying conversation. From what I gathered, quite a few people in FFXIV don't just favour quietness, they favour silence. And with attitudes that unfriendly, they may repel enough newbies and have it, eventually - though perhaps not ultimately to their liking or the game's benefit.


Edited, May 11th 2012 5:30pm by KaneKitty


This has always been one of my biggest complaints with FFXIV. You see so little signs of... vitality. Of people conversing, of conversation, of ambient noise. It's just.... *crickets*... everywhere... all the time. MMOs are supposed to be virtual worlds, teeming with real people. Not people sitting behind linkshells and shunning people for deigning to speak.


Put simply, it dosen't have a chatterbox channel, like other MMOs.

And most people who did jump form FFXI to FFXIV and stayed did not like Shoutbox spamming.

Ul'dah may act like a central hub for the game, but it isn't one, and the game lacks a way to communicate wide-ban with everyone without becoming a clutter to those doing instead of chatting.

And that's the real difference here. There's limited wait times on things now. Getting a pick up group together is about the only real time sink here, aside from crafting. (You could try chatting it up with crafters now that they don't have a timer tied to their crafts.) Most people are actually active, so they view chatting as a distraction, or, they're simply passing through or not in range.

So you've got one-half bad chat-interface design, one half good game play design. Which makes most conversations done in linkshells, where the chat is global and you know or are getting to know the people. I am certainly not lacking for social exchange in my game.

I expect 2.0 to be a fair bit more conversational, though I will see if they can suggest a chat channel - though it will likely be consumed by shouts (even though we do have a content finder...)
#43 May 13 2012 at 12:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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I tried logging in to see how the game has changed.

There is still no simple party search tool. What is there is far too particular to find anyone given the game's low population. If 2.0 is still like this I'm out... this is such an easy thing to implement. I don't even care about content, I just wish they could get these simple things right. This still feels like alpha...

I see people saying this game has changed massively but the fatal problems still seem to be there almost 2 years on.

Edited, May 13th 2012 3:19pm by Dizmo
#44 May 13 2012 at 1:44 PM Rating: Good
The party search tool is there, and actually really easy to use...only downfall is no one uses it.
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#45 May 13 2012 at 3:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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Because of how specific it is, perhaps?

No one uses it for a reason.
#46 May 13 2012 at 4:28 PM Rating: Good
All you really have to do is leave everything to default and adjust the level you want to find, it'll pull up everyone seeking. But when I did that last time, one guy came up between 20-25.
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