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Adventure: The Japanese point of viewFollow

#1 May 12 2012 at 8:39 AM Rating: Good
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On the Japanese side of the official forums, a new thread recently popped up discussing the current state of things. ( http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/45222-みんなで出来る冒険がしたい! ) Interestingly, there is one thing most posters agree on: the dire lack of "adventure". I'm a little surprised, I have to admit; I never considered the Japanese to be an especially adventurous lot.

According to one poster, one of the basic problems is that the game has been streamlined to death. Leveling is a joke, but still tedious enough to irritate right because it's so completely without challenge that it has become nothing more than a meaningless nuisance. There's no need or merit to exploration either, because you can always teleport even to places you've never "discovered" on your own. Cosequently most of the landscape was a complete waste to implement; the majority of players will never see it.

Moreover, the ultimate special skill of the big bosses seems to be "Tedium Flare". They simply die without dropping anything useful until you give up.(*) And because there's no lockout timers, linkshells will do "the runs" it in blocks of 10. What an adventure. Yay! We finally killed Garuda. Just like half an hour ago. And an hour ago. And 1.5 hours ago. And two hours ago. The first page of the thread ends with 「どう見ても、作業ですもんね。 」(Anyway you look at it, it is work).

There's many other posts that (very politely) point out things that perhaps might be less optimal than what some of us eternal supporters expected. Perhaps. Which is the Japanese equivalent to the raging German kid ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbcctWbC8Q0 ). Perhaps, however, the thread title says it's all: 「みんなで出来る冒険がしたい!」(We want to adventure).

I agree. And unless Yoshi gives me that feeling of danger, excitement, threat, and mystery I crave for in a game, not a hundred days of welcome-back-but-don't-spoil-our-official-forums will bring me back. And for some reason it's very encouraging to know that some people on the other side of the world feel the same.




(*) Picture this. Ifrit, Moogle and Garuda boasting around a campfire. Ifrit:"I died 54 times today. And dropped a total of 3 totems ^.^/". Good King: "Ha! I only dropped staves and rods. I almost laughed myself to death imagining those meleeing mages. ^m^/" Garuda, with a smile: "Oh boys, you'll never learn. Simply give them a way to win due to an exploit, and they'll be finished within an week's time. And never bother you again. -.^/"

#2 May 12 2012 at 9:11 AM Rating: Excellent
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Can't say I disagree with any of the points expressed. Making things utterly without challenge ultimately creates a stale and uninteresting game. These were all problems that many people were talking about over a year ago, of course, back when instant teleportation around the world was still a controversy; SE has been trying to kill any sense of adventure by degrees for a long while now.
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#3 May 12 2012 at 12:01 PM Rating: Good
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Thank you Rin for posting this from the JP side. I was always curious about their thoughts of FFXIV.
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#4 May 12 2012 at 12:24 PM Rating: Decent
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Try to keep this in mind though: This is not the opinion of every Japanese individual. This is one outspoken individual who is upset and people that support and oppose them, just like any other group - the opinions are likely back and forth. Picking out one translation and generalizing an entire ethnic group by it is prejudice.

Not that we don't do it all the time to ourselves.
#5 May 12 2012 at 5:13 PM Rating: Decent
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Streamlining: I say streamlining is a very good thing. Things like reducing redundant text, redundant confirmation, lag, buggy quest, etc.

Leveling: The actual process shouldn't equate to a life or death struggle that requires 100% focus every single encounter. But each enemy type should at least have one or two unique characteristics that would make things more difficult should you not address that. I just want more roadblocks during each job/class progression. Artifact quest, class/job quests, genkais, story expansions granting access to new areas, skill quests, etc.

Teleports & World: Agree with the teleporting before exploring rant. Doesn't matter how **** or varied the world is. If there isn't some purpose other than leveling. Few will really explore an area more than a few times.

Bosses & Endgame content: What boss in any rewarding game drops anything until you approach the giving up point? Lockout timers are ****. They are designed to keep you playing a particular event longer over real time. That is the whole point of low drop rates. Lockout timers are redundant and only serve at keeping you from playing content you enjoy. If I enjoy doing a particular content but am forced to either not play or do things I don't enjoy over the course of wait times, that's work. Nothing is work if you enjoy it. This goes for real life too. If you don't like spamming content, here's a tip. Pace yourself and only do something when you want. The only thing I wish SE would do is raise the token systems progression a tad.

Instances & Fun from the outset: My main gripe with mmos in general is this. Instance the most difficult content where timing and responsiveness matters. Things like pvp, bcnms, dynamic story transitions, and hardcore raids. Other than that, instances shouldn't exist in an mmo period. For leveling if people don't want cc. Guildleves can serve them well.

I understand this is an rpg and with that comes progression. The best gear, hardest content, best skills, etc should come later. But that doesn't mean types of content should be locked until max level. There should be varied content from level one to cap. Pvp, dungeons, massive PvE, minigames, story, etc. The argument may be made why would people care about that if the highest tier things are at cap? With proper itemzation, a true rpg fanatic would care. Why not make that level 15 dungeons drop the best pieces/skills/spells for a job/class at level 20? Take it a step further and make those items r/e and only drop items for the job/class you are doing the content. This could alleviate job/class stacking. To someone who doesn't care about mid progression they might ignore this and be gimp for awhile. But for the serious rpg fanatic who wants to be optimal & proud. This content allows that sense of progression.

That is the big problem with mmorpgs everywhere. They allow you to buy or bypass content. Some people buy gears, some levels, etc. The currency isn't always gil or gold. But if the avenue is there some will pursue the road of least resistance. It doesn't directly affect the by the book adventurer. Would you pay for a vacation cruise if you could have the memories implanted of you having a good or bad time? Or would you rather experience that first hand? Stop the PL, stop the buying it forward mentality. For the love of god, make this world an enjoyable adventure from the outset. If people don't like the adventure SE provides. There are many other vacation cruises to sail on.

Edited, May 12th 2012 7:20pm by sandpark
#6 May 12 2012 at 5:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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Half the time I throw vitriol at you, Sandpark, and yet half the time I feel that your posts are generally well reasoned and agreeable. Stop clouding my black-and-white world with shades of grey and let me hate you already! ; ;
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"... he called to himself a wizard, named Gallery, hoping by this means to escape the paying of the fifteen hundred crowns..." (Machen 15)

"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#7 May 12 2012 at 5:43 PM Rating: Excellent
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Lol Kanekitty.
I miss Tanaka sometimes....
Does that make things easier on you?
#8 May 13 2012 at 5:56 AM Rating: Decent
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Here's my thoughts on this...

Most people don't play MMOs for adventure anymore. Those feelings of excitement, threat, danger, etc are all mitigated once someone figures out the optimal way to do something. Then every detail gets posted online and everyone else follows knowing full well what to expect. It's kind of hard to feel like there's any danger when a winning strategy or gear build has been proven to work 90% of the time. Once the best build/strategy/path to whatever is discovered the adventure end. No need to explore or experiment, you'd be gimping yourself if you did.

Yes there are parts of the map that no one will ever go. Why? Because we already know there's nothing out there. Want the best weapon for your level? It's in a guide somewhere that tells you exactly where it's at and how to get it. What's that mob and what does it drop? Just pull up your browser and look it up. I can YouTube all the primal battles if I want to see them for the first time.

Unfortunately that's how players are now. Besides "adventure" bring a very ambiguous term to start with, any traditional sense of adventure is washed out by all the information available on the internet. That and people generally follow the path of least resistance so there's no real reason to deviate. You can gimp yourself if you do even!
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#9 May 13 2012 at 7:18 AM Rating: Decent
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So Tanaka is posting as a Japanese player and trolling the forums?

Clearly what we need is a adjustment in 10x more XP tnl and tedious lockout timers to fix the game rather than content.

Adventure is in playstyle, if your players want adventure they would not rush to "endgame" and they would go out exploring. I do it, I'm sure others do. If you are obsessed with getting to the end you will not have time to stop and enjoy the ride.

Edited, May 13th 2012 9:20am by Levish
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#10 May 13 2012 at 8:56 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Most people don't play MMOs for adventure anymore. Those feelings of excitement, threat, danger, etc are all mitigated once someone figures out the optimal way to do something. Then every detail gets posted online and everyone else follows knowing full well what to expect.


...which tells me you were born before the internet just like me ^^/.

Still, there is ways around that problem: (seemingly) random variation
and a well-programed and adaptive mob AI that automatically adjusts
to established tactics. Simply include a routine that checks for the most
common kill strategies. Everybody manaburns your boss to death?
Have it grow in magic resistance permanently every time it's killed
by a spell (and at the same time slightly lower its physical resistances
to keep overall difficulty constant). Famitsu publishes the ultimate
spots for archers to savely range it to death? Have your ads spawn
right there.... and so on, and so on. I really wonder why nothing the
like has been done yet.

Randomization and adaptation on the fly works wonders separating
the true champion players from the copycats. And brings back a lot
of adventure.
#11 May 13 2012 at 9:01 AM Rating: Excellent
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Perhaps if FFXIV didn't force everyone to the internet to figure out utter basics at every turn because of lazy design or "PS3 limitations", people would be less inclined to go looking for everything online.

It's an unfortunate precedent, but one FFXIV had no problem supporting from launch even until now.

Edited, May 13th 2012 11:07am by hexaemeron
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#12 May 13 2012 at 9:27 AM Rating: Default
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Recent post on lodestone:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/45420-devPLEASE-Dynamic-World-If-Ever-You-Do-Something-Do-This!

If anything they need to look at what's launching and has launched in the past and make it work. They need to decide; how many people do we want playing this; and what will draw them in.

I just picked up two copies of GW2 and while I maintain my subscription to XIV looking at what GW2 is offering vs what XIV is offering; it looks as though GW will have the better system. Yes. It will launch with a two tiered paid system where you can buy things in the store but they've always had that and balanced it quite well.

For example:
Pay for a permanent server transfer or fight in game; earn jewels in-game and than you get it free. O.O really? Oh **** yes. lol

XIV needs a new breath and that's why I'm waiting for 2.0 and beyond to see what happens. My wife's favorite part of XI was the CoP storyline and those dumbass taru's that always got in trouble. Hands downs. I always thought it was funny as well but a great story to-boot.
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Like Final Fantasy XI, the game specs will be extremely high for the time, but in about 5 years, an average machine can run it on max settings with little to no issues. Tanaka also expressed interest in making a benchmark program available.

FilthMcNasty wrote:
I endorse this thread.
#13 May 13 2012 at 9:28 AM Rating: Excellent
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reptiletim wrote:
Besides "adventure" bring a very ambiguous term to start with, any traditional sense of adventure is washed out by all the information available on the internet.


When I had to get my Bard artifact armour in FFXI, I had a map of the area to which I had to go, I had another, marked map available online, and I had a step-by-step walkthrough on the other half of my screen. I was warned that there may be a truesight notorious monster roaming the area, but it was another thing having to actually navigate around it. I was shown all the turns and hallways I had to follow, but it was another thing to actually have to confront them. Avoiding those orcs, veering around that tangled labyrinth, cowering in the corner as Invisible began to run out, getting attacked and drinking a reraise-potion just in time: those were all things that made it an adventure.

Having all the available information does not necessarily excise the adventure from an equation. If it does, if the outcome of events can be rendered entirely dependable and can be mathematically calculated far in advance, then the scenario was rather too simplistic in the first place.
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"... he called to himself a wizard, named Gallery, hoping by this means to escape the paying of the fifteen hundred crowns..." (Machen 15)

"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#14 May 13 2012 at 9:56 AM Rating: Good
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@Elionora
Thank you for the link. That does sound phantastic indeed, but I remain sceptical. Until GW2 really shows what
it promises, that is. There have been too many hype games (including FFXIV) that ultimately did not deliver what
they touted.

I especially don't believe the "cascading changes to the game world" mechanic. Because that would mean developers
have to (manually) program x versions of the game, when ultimately only some of them see the light of day. BUT.
As I said, I will reserve my judgement at least until the first reviews are in.

@KaneKitty
Yes, you have a point there; although just a half one. In my opinion, 11's content was captivating despite being
predictable. Imagine it having the great storytelling we came to love, and some random variations on top of it. And
with random I mean "random". Not just crazy complex yet still predictable with a gameguide.
#15 May 13 2012 at 9:58 AM Rating: Default
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Rinsui wrote:
@Elionora
Thank you for the link. That does sound phantastic indeed, but I remain sceptical. Until GW2 really shows what
it promises, that is. There have been too many hype games (including FFXIV) that ultimately did not deliver what
they touted.

I especially don't believe the "cascading changes to the game world" mechanic. Because that would mean developers
have to (manually) program x versions of the game, when ultimately only some of them see the light of day. BUT.
As I said, I will reserve my judgement at least until the first reviews are in.

@KaneKitty
Yes, you have a point there; although just a half one. In my opinion, 11's content was captivating despite being
predictable. Imagine it having the great storytelling we came to love, and some random variations on top of it. And
with random I mean "random". Not just crazy complex yet still predictable with a gameguide.


^^ It's already in the beta but apparently on release they already gave a few thousand scripted. I'm going to wait and see as well but for 59.99 and no monthly to me it was worth the purchase. If you buy it now there's a server stress test on the 14th not sure on any betas after that but you get early access to them. :)
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Quote:
Like Final Fantasy XI, the game specs will be extremely high for the time, but in about 5 years, an average machine can run it on max settings with little to no issues. Tanaka also expressed interest in making a benchmark program available.

FilthMcNasty wrote:
I endorse this thread.
#16 May 13 2012 at 11:21 AM Rating: Excellent
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I really think there's two kinds of MMO players. The kind that treat it as an alternate world to hang out and adventure, and the kind who play to compete and beat things. I'm certainly the first kind and it's right, we're in a minority. I think since MMOs became mainstream the focus on immersion and temporary escape from the real world has been lost.
#17 May 13 2012 at 12:13 PM Rating: Default
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KaneKitty wrote:


When I had to get my Bard artifact armour in FFXI, I had a map of the area to which I had to go, I had another, marked map available online, and I had a step-by-step walkthrough on the other half of my screen. I was warned that there may be a truesight notorious monster roaming the area, but it was another thing having to actually navigate around it. I was shown all the turns and hallways I had to follow, but it was another thing to actually have to confront them. Avoiding those orcs, veering around that tangled labyrinth, cowering in the corner as Invisible began to run out, getting attacked and drinking a reraise-potion just in time: those were all things that made it an adventure.

Having all the available information does not necessarily excise the adventure from an equation. If it does, if the outcome of events can be rendered entirely dependable and can be mathematically calculated far in advance, then the scenario was rather too simplistic in the first place.


The point I was trying to make was that if for whatever reason you failed in your search for your AF quest it was because you sucked at following directions and dodging mobs. Every last bit of discovery was taken care of in the guide.

I mean our idea of adventure may be two completely different concepts but to me adventure includes discovery, not just following a set of instructions. That's something that's dead for any modern MMO now, it's never coming back.
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#18 May 13 2012 at 1:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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reptiletim wrote:
KaneKitty wrote:
Having all the available information does not necessarily excise the adventure from an equation. If it does, if the outcome of events can be rendered entirely dependable and can be mathematically calculated far in advance, then the scenario was rather too simplistic in the first place.


The point I was trying to make was that if for whatever reason you failed in your search for your AF quest it was because you sucked at following directions and dodging mobs. Every last bit of discovery was taken care of in the guide.

I mean our idea of adventure may be two completely different concepts but to me adventure includes discovery, not just following a set of instructions. That's something that's dead for any modern MMO now, it's never coming back.


There has never been a time when MMOs didn't make use of the internet, so whatever notion of discovery that has since been spoiled has always been so; people have always discussed things on the internet, and that's true even way back in ~2002-03. Discovery can be part of an adventure but need not be the only part. Clearly, an adventure encompasses many different aspects that collude to produce the ultimate (and variable) "adventure" designation. Discovery plays a role, but so does risk, as well as excitement. In my experience delving after my armour, I satisfied two of these three major parts of adventure, and so I think that it was an adequate, if not complete, representation of the feeling.

With regard to discovery, though, it's also important to note that many things would be impossible to do without some sort of guide or communication between players (and this is especially true in FFXI). One part of discovery is being the first to do something, but another essential part of discovery is the dissemination of that information - it's how the culture of an MMO spreads: through player interaction. Often times such guides were written by individuals who travelled in large groups and who had already reached the level cap, by players who had access to greater resources than many others. As a lowly level 60 Bard, even with a friend or two, there would have been no way I could have navigated unknown corridors with any hope of success; even the quest descriptions themselves, provided by NPCs and explained in questlogs, rarely said anything useful.

Ultimately, you don't seem to have a problem with MMO design as much as you have a problem with people being able to share information. The only way to preserve "discovery" is to play without speaking to anyone, though, which is contrary to the very essence of the genre. A discovery remains undiscovered only until people begin to discuss it, and for as long as there have been MMOs the internet has been used to spread these ideas.


Edited, May 13th 2012 3:54pm by KaneKitty
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"... he called to himself a wizard, named Gallery, hoping by this means to escape the paying of the fifteen hundred crowns..." (Machen 15)

"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#19 May 13 2012 at 6:37 PM Rating: Decent
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reptiletim wrote:
I mean our idea of adventure may be two completely different concepts but to me adventure includes discovery, not just following a set of instructions. That's something that's dead for any modern MMO now, it's never coming back.


I was just playing TERA for a little while and I didn't know where to find a specific mob I needed to kill for quest. It's easy to click the link in the quest text and have your map marked, but instead of that I just wandered around gathering mats and moving through uncharted areas until I found them. It isn't impossible to adventure even in games where it's easy to get hints or even be on cruise control the entire time. Unless you're in a group with someone who's already looked up info then it's on the player to choose how much they want their hand held.
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#20 May 13 2012 at 7:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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reptiletim wrote:
The point I was trying to make was that if for whatever reason you failed in your search for your AF quest it was because you sucked at following directions and dodging mobs. Every last bit of discovery was taken care of in the guide.

I mean our idea of adventure may be two completely different concepts but to me adventure includes discovery, not just following a set of instructions. That's something that's dead for any modern MMO now, it's never coming back.


I can see where you're coming from here. When I play single player games, I stay away from forums and guides because I enjoy having everything a surprise the first time through. Knowing every twist and turn, knowing where every big fight will be, what to expect from it and what strategies are considered optimal, where every hidden item is, etc. is boring to me, so I avoid this information completely. If there are perfect strategies that I missed, or uber weapons I didn't find, I go without them. By knowing everything that's up ahead and playing in a way that others have already found is most efficient, I feel like I'm cheating myself from a huge part of the experience.

In MMOs I tend to take more of a hybrid approach. When I'm playing with random strangers, I usually go with the flow, because unfortunately for those like us there are many who don't have the patience to explore or go in "blind" if there's a chance of failure. I also keep up with discussion on my particular class to ensure that I'm not missing any major strategies and holding people back because of it. But when I solo or play with my friends and family members, I get the opportunity to have some fun at my/our own pace. Smiley: nod

Edited, May 13th 2012 9:19pm by Susanoh
#21 May 13 2012 at 9:16 PM Rating: Good
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Since this discussion has leaned towards what constitutes adventure. I'd like to share my point of view. There is no way to avoid information short of ignoring it. Ignoring or adhering to that info doesn't affect the adventure. Following information by the book only depletes the mystery. Adventure to me means participating in a journey & seeing how that adventure affects you on a personal level. To use a real life example. Four groups of people in different cars are going to drive from Texas to New York. The first two groups use gps, the third group prints a map. And the fourth group is going to wing it by visual cues and signs. The likelihood of the four groups traveling to their destination & having the exact same journey are slim to none. Many variables such as nature, getting lost, arguments, alcohol, etc can throw a wrench into what is planned and chaos ensues. The more people involved increases the odds at an adventure changing for better or worse. In there lies the beauty of it all. We are all individuals with different strengths, weaknesses, desires, reflexes, humor, anger, & wits. Even if SE had every ounce of info spoonfed to us in game. The experience would not be uniform because of our humanity. Do you go skydiving without learning the basics first?

Let Kanekitty hate me. Let someone out there love me. But don't segregate us into a world of mostly instances. Don't allow this bypassing of the chaos by allowing buying it forward. Living in a protected bubble might make some comfortably numb. But you can't truly experience the adventure of feelings unless it is shared. Adventure lives inside you, not in online guides. Reading up may spur your imagination or better prepare you? As the saying goes, seeing is believing.

The kingdom of god is inside you and all around you. Not in mansions of wood & stone. Spilt a piece of wood... and I am there. Lift a stone... and you will find me.
#22 May 13 2012 at 9:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
reptiletim wrote:
I mean our idea of adventure may be two completely different concepts but to me adventure includes discovery, not just following a set of instructions. That's something that's dead for any modern MMO now, it's never coming back.


I was just playing TERA for a little while and I didn't know where to find a specific mob I needed to kill for quest. It's easy to click the link in the quest text and have your map marked, but instead of that I just wandered around gathering mats and moving through uncharted areas until I found them. It isn't impossible to adventure even in games where it's easy to get hints or even be on cruise control the entire time. Unless you're in a group with someone who's already looked up info then it's on the player to choose how much they want their hand held.

That's a good point. Even in WoW I've managed to find quite a bit of adventure when leveling up by myself, reading all the quest text, trying to ignore hints on the map, staying in zones past their optimal levels, and sticking to gear a typical character my level could afford or craft. Getting from 1-cap like that was a blast--however, it's really only fun once. Most of my MMO veteran friends did the same thing at some point, but once you get into the social aspect of MMOs, that starts going away. Soon the illusion of the game goes away, and you focus on the mechanics, and with that comes competition and pressure to keep up with and support your friends and guild. You use whatever builds the forums tell you to, you watch boss encounter videos before ever encountering them, you powerlevel alts when your class is no longer raid viable. Almost all my MMO veteran friends are on hiatus, and I don't think it's because of anything specifically wrong with the state of WoW or the other MMOs on the market, but because the whole genre itself has become quite dated. The only way to experience adventure is to essentially play it as a single player game, and you could just play a single player game like Dragon Age or Skyrim, and it will be better and cheaper.

I think there will have to be some amazing innovation in MMOs to get any game to the subscriber level WoW had at peak, and it doesn't look like anything out there or on the upcoming market (including GW2) is really bringing that, and I have no reason to suspect FFXIV 2.0 is any different.
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#23 May 13 2012 at 9:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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I don't mind adventure as long as it's not taken to an extreme.

FFXI's Extreme Example:

ZM4- The Temple of Uggalepih
In-Game Instructions [Paraphrased]: Find the secret of it.

There's no hints to needing lanterns or a paintbrush, or anything like that. That's way too little information. So little, it makes it un-fun.

FFXIV's Extreme Example:
Level 30 Rank Quest
In Game-Instructions [Paraphrased]: Go to (38,19) of Eastern Thanalan west of Halitali and fight the three Amal'jaas that you met in the cutscene. You should bring four party members.



That's the other side. Way too much information.

---

I would like what they do in the raids, give a general location of the dungeon, what you may need in there in order to complete it, and a hint or two. The raids do this pretty well, they give you a hint on what's inside, and what you need from there. I hope they put that in the scenario quests in the future.
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#24 May 13 2012 at 9:52 PM Rating: Decent
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The overall average to median gamer is sick of the pay to play model. It's not really so much to do with mmos stagnating. Though they have due to the massive online limits making structure adhere to a strict path. The second problem is the quality, scale, quantity & depth of single player games over the last few years. It used to be just a few companies who had the midas touch while the rest were average to good.

WoW was a perfect storm, a freak of nature, it came at the right time doing the right things. Can an mmo ever reach those active subscribers again? Nothing is impossible, but I say nay due to the reasons in my opening comments. Numbers don't matter to me though. I never liked WoW even though I see why many people enjoyed it. As long as I have enough people to actively play & not actively wait to play, i'm good. My favorite rpg series this gen is the Dark/Demon souls series. And while it did remarkably well. It didn't sell in the same vicinity of Skyrim.
#25 May 13 2012 at 10:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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yfaithfully wrote:
Almost all my MMO veteran friends are on hiatus, and I don't think it's because of anything specifically wrong with the state of WoW or the other MMOs on the market


I think it's because there's something wrong with the state of WoW and the other MMOs on the market.

The genre can only be made so easy and be modified to possess so much mass-appeal before veterans inevitably start losing interest. WoW taught MMO makers that they need not be "niche" endeavours and, ever since, developers have been (erroneously, in my opinion) chasing derivative techniques and implementing micro-transactions wherever they could, hiring psychologists and market-analysts when they should have been focusing on writers, artists, and other creative team members.

Games have always been made, to an extent, to generate a profit, but the balance between creativity and expression, on one hand, and corporate marketing decisions, on the other, tended to remain more equalized in the past. As games became increasingly popular, game companies became self-aware, in a sense, and began to design their products with profit far above anything else. It's how WoW started selling un-tradable vehicles for $20, then un-tradable pets for $20, and then tradable pets for $20. It's how we got multiple DLC packages for Final Fantasy 13 part 2. And it's also why adventure fades from MMOs.
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"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#26 May 13 2012 at 10:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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KaneKitty wrote:
There has never been a time when MMOs didn't make use of the internet, so whatever notion of discovery that has since been spoiled has always been so; people have always discussed things on the internet, and that's true even way back in ~2002-03. Discovery can be part of an adventure but need not be the only part. Clearly, an adventure encompasses many different aspects that collude to produce the ultimate (and variable) "adventure" designation. Discovery plays a role, but so does risk, as well as excitement. In my experience delving after my armour, I satisfied two of these three major parts of adventure, and so I think that it was an adequate, if not complete, representation of the feeling.


I agree. You can read about rollercoasters all you want. But nothing truly prepares you for the experience.

You can watch pro-football on TV all you want. Doesn't mean you can catch a ball while 250 pound men are trying to stop you.

You can watch a Youtube video of a guy perfectly dodging that video game boss that keeps killing you. It might give you hope it's possible, but it won't magically make you dodge the boss perfectly (unless it truly is a simple trick).

This notion you can't discover anything anymore because you can read about it or watch a video overlooks many aspects that makes games fun, especially the experience of mastering the challenges yourself. That part you won't discover until you actually succeed. You may know the mountain has a top, but how does that compare to making it to the top of that mountain yourself?
#27 May 13 2012 at 11:16 PM Rating: Decent
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yfaithfully wrote:
I think there will have to be some amazing innovation in MMOs to get any game to the subscriber level WoW had at peak, and it doesn't look like anything out there or on the upcoming market (including GW2) is really bringing that, and I have no reason to suspect FFXIV 2.0 is any different.


Agreed. Like I said, once you take off the training wheels and start grouping you'll run into people who probably did enough research to know how to play your class better than you do, what the ideal comp is for whatever encounter you're going to face, ect.

About the most 'adventure' I got from endgame in any MMO I've played was WoW PTR(test server). My guild were always excited to hit the PTR and it was refreshing to go in blind with no DBM hand-holding. If you remove all the adventure, players will end up gravitating to the game that suits their needs based on their favorite mechanic be it combat system, storyline, aesthetics or what have you.
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HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#28 May 14 2012 at 12:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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I think the idea of a WoW killer is a myth. I've used this analogy a few times before, but it's still completely true: WoW is the king of MMOs in the same way that Budweiser is the king of beers. It hit at the right time and the right place and made itself a cultural icon, and nothing is going to take it out. It's definitely not for refined palates, but nothing will ever be able to reach its heights in popularity no matter how good they are, because it is the king.

Instead of trying to topple WoW, other MMOs should strive to be like the craft brew market, putting out a superior product and going after the smaller, pickier crowd. There are beers I'll pay twenty bucks a case for. (Ever hear of Wild Heaven? or Terrapin? or Stone? *drool*) Likewise, there are games I'll still pay $15 a month for.
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#29 May 14 2012 at 4:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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As some other posters alluded to FFXI had this. It had adventure.

Why?

1. The art direction/varied and distinct zones.

2. Weight/difficulty of the game. Groups took skill, and soloing took even greater skill.

3. The quality of music.

4. The group dynamic and the ability to make zones "exclusive" by including high level mobs.

5. Weapons mattered and armor mattered.

For all of it's faults no other MMO or even game came close to providing this sort of atmosphere.

However the things that made FFXI a great adventure, were things that made it a chore to play. Namely #5; having to farm for Shihei and gear.

The revised FFXI with GoV and FoV ruin the challenge a bit, BUT it was cool running through Promys, and soloing my Dragon AF helm; just being able to experience the content that was there.

...And that's was I imagined FFXIV to be. Just an easier FFXI. All of the exploration, but a little less of the endless grinding and more rewarding of skill.

Coerthas out of all of the zones, almost had it.

I'm a little excited for and will play GW2, but out of all of the videos, it seems like any other MMO. We'll see.
#30 May 14 2012 at 6:23 PM Rating: Decent
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FFXI and the word skill dont go hand in hand, unless wasting time is a skill, then by all means include it.
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#31 May 14 2012 at 7:11 PM Rating: Good
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I think the new maps in 2.0 should restore a sense of adventure, hopefully.
#32 May 15 2012 at 12:19 AM Rating: Excellent
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Ostia wrote:
FFXI and the word skill dont go hand in hand, unless wasting time is a skill, then by all means include it.


That's a tad harsh. It's true the learning curve wasn't that tremendous, but you did have to know how to set yourself up to perform tasks in a timely manner (not to mention knowing what tasks you could perform). That you could fetch gear to improve that performance was ironically the reason you stayed to play, but this has been a mainstay of RPGs throughout the ages.
#33 May 15 2012 at 12:34 AM Rating: Excellent
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Kierk wrote:
As some other posters alluded to FFXI had this. It had adventure.

Why?

1. The art direction/varied and distinct zones.

2. Weight/difficulty of the game. Groups took skill, and soloing took even greater skill.

3. The quality of music.

4. The group dynamic and the ability to make zones "exclusive" by including high level mobs.

5. Weapons mattered and armor mattered.


I only partially agree with #1. Yes the zones are varied, and XI succeeded here but in the same vein they failed at doing the same with mobs. Almost completely wrecks the fact that you have a zone that makes you really feel like you traveled across a continent when you get there only to be confronted by the same old crab using the same old skin.

#2 has always bothered me and while I'll try to keep this topic from steering into the 'what is the definition of videogame skill', XI takes no more 'skill' than almost any other MMO. RNG is king. Nuff said.

I completely agree with #3 and I have yet to find any music from any other MMO (sandy bagpipes aside) that has inspired me as much as XI did.




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HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#34 May 15 2012 at 1:35 AM Rating: Excellent
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Another interesting tidbit of opinion from the same thread:
One of the posters says that Yoshi's "themepark" orientation
is flawed; and he gives a good example. Basically Yoshi says
that a game should provide multiple attractions, at least one
for every taste. Just like Disneyland does. The problem is, that
players in a RPG don(t want to be visitors to a themepark. They
want to be Mickey Mouse. Or one of his important companions.

So while raid dungeons provide interchangeable distractions,
they do little to immerse you into or clarify your overall role or
"purpose" in the game world. For that, they are simply too
disconnected and spammable. For those who can read:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/45222-みんなで出来る冒険がしたい!/page5 ,
the 14:37 post.

#35 May 15 2012 at 1:51 AM Rating: Decent
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Rinsui wrote:
Another interesting tidbit of opinion from the same thread:
One of the posters says that Yoshi's "themepark" orientation
is flawed; and he gives a good example. Basically Yoshi says
that a game should provide multiple attractions, at least one
for every taste. Just like Disneyland does. The problem is, that
players in a RPG don(t want to be visitors to a themepark. They
want to be Mickey Mouse. Or one of his important companions.

So while raid dungeons provide interchangeable distractions,
they do little to immerse you into or clarify your overall role or
"purpose" in the game world. For that, they are simply too
disconnected and spammable. For those who can read:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/45222-みんなで出来る冒険がしたい!/page5 ,
the 14:37 post.


Well, that might be true of an RPG with fixed, offline characters, but we're dealing with an MMO filled with individually customized characters of diverse interests and tastes. For one thing, you can't all be Cloud, Tifa, or Sephiroth. Furthermore, some people like to craft, some people like to gather, some people like role-play their character with other like-minded individuals. It's not all about killing Ifrit 500 times to get all the gear you want all the time.
#36 May 15 2012 at 2:16 AM Rating: Excellent
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Xoie wrote:
It's not all about killing Ifrit 500 times to get all the gear you want all the time.


That's true: sometimes it's about making poor-quality shoes and falling asleep in a pool of your own tears. ; ;


Edited, May 15th 2012 4:21am by KaneKitty
____________________________
"... he called to himself a wizard, named Gallery, hoping by this means to escape the paying of the fifteen hundred crowns..." (Machen 15)

"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#37 May 15 2012 at 8:06 AM Rating: Excellent
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Xoie wrote:
Rinsui wrote:
Another interesting tidbit of opinion from the same thread:
One of the posters says that Yoshi's "themepark" orientation
is flawed; and he gives a good example. Basically Yoshi says
that a game should provide multiple attractions, at least one
for every taste. Just like Disneyland does. The problem is, that
players in a RPG don(t want to be visitors to a themepark. They
want to be Mickey Mouse. Or one of his important companions.

So while raid dungeons provide interchangeable distractions,
they do little to immerse you into or clarify your overall role or
"purpose" in the game world. For that, they are simply too
disconnected and spammable. For those who can read:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/45222-みんなで出来る冒険がしたい!/page5 ,
the 14:37 post.


Well, that might be true of an RPG with fixed, offline characters, but we're dealing with an MMO filled with individually customized characters of diverse interests and tastes. For one thing, you can't all be Cloud, Tifa, or Sephiroth. Furthermore, some people like to craft, some people like to gather, some people like role-play their character with other like-minded individuals. It's not all about killing Ifrit 500 times to get all the gear you want all the time.

But people do want to be Cloud, Tifa, or Sephiroth. But not an exact replica, they want a spiritual personification. They want to play iconic statues hence the earlier cry for jobs. The FF characters behind the offline FF series is what gives a face to the memory of a job. Just as swtor tried to let players experience seeing what it was like to be Boba Fett, Han Solo, etc.

Yoshi's analogy hits his point dead on, but the end result is wrong. Themeparks don't change until the original designed wishes it, & you the visitor have no control over course of the rides. What the players really want is identityparks which the japanese poster seems to be trying to say. They want that from actual friends and rivals and they want npcs to recognize their actions taken upon the world. To get that identity each player must be given select tools to modify the themepark slightly but not demolish it and rebuild from scratch.

Where is Identity in XIV?
By that I mean content that allows the user to alter an ending or change the perception of npcs on a short to long basis. How many things are allowed to be tinkered with and personalized to feel achievement? The free company system has potential imo.

The games building the biggest hype past or present are the ones that provide or promise of identity in different themepark attractions. I'm just listing these three but each mmo brings some promise of identity to the table.
Tera- Combat System and the political PvP System
GW2- Dynamic Events and multiserver PvP
Swtor- Dialogue Wheel


#38 May 15 2012 at 10:47 AM Rating: Decent
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sandpark wrote:
Yoshi's analogy hits his point dead on, but the end result is wrong. Themeparks don't change until the original designed wishes it, & you the visitor have no control over course of the rides. What the players really want is identityparks which the japanese poster seems to be trying to say. They want that from actual friends and rivals and they want npcs to recognize their actions taken upon the world. To get that identity each player must be given select tools to modify the themepark slightly but not demolish it and rebuild from scratch.


I don't think you go to a theme park to be Mickey Mouse. You go to a theme park to see where Mickey Mouse lives. And you expect the theme park to have a diverse amount of activities ready to enjoy. You're not going there to design rides. The crowd is there to have a good time and experience a different world for a little while. If they aren't having fun, they'll leave.
#39 May 15 2012 at 10:58 AM Rating: Good
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Xoie wrote:
sandpark wrote:
Yoshi's analogy hits his point dead on, but the end result is wrong. Themeparks don't change until the original designed wishes it, & you the visitor have no control over course of the rides. What the players really want is identityparks which the japanese poster seems to be trying to say. They want that from actual friends and rivals and they want npcs to recognize their actions taken upon the world. To get that identity each player must be given select tools to modify the themepark slightly but not demolish it and rebuild from scratch.


I don't think you go to a theme park to be Mickey Mouse. You go to a theme park to see where Mickey Mouse lives. And you expect the theme park to have a diverse amount of activities ready to enjoy. You're not going there to design rides. The crowd is there to have a good time and experience a different world for a little while. If they aren't having fun, they'll leave.


Of course not, but the poster using a bad comparison was speaking about videogames. Gamers do not wanna play any themepark game where no customization or alternate paths are not available. No one said anything about designing games, I said tinkering within select parameters in the provided system. When a process is too straightforward in games with no variations. It is commonly referred to as "on rails". Interesting branching paths, yes please.
#40 May 15 2012 at 11:46 AM Rating: Decent
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sandpark wrote:
Where is Identity in XIV?
By that I mean content that allows the user to alter an ending or change the perception of npcs on a short to long basis. How many things are allowed to be tinkered with and personalized to feel achievement? The free company system has potential imo.

The games building the biggest hype past or present are the ones that provide or promise of identity in different themepark attractions. I'm just listing these three but each mmo brings some promise of identity to the table.
Tera- Combat System and the political PvP System
GW2- Dynamic Events and multiserver PvP
Swtor- Dialogue Wheel


XIV missed out on identifying their game because none of the ideas they started with worked out. Classless class system, freedom to change jobs on the fly and guildleves were all supposed to be fresh and/or revolutionary, but they weren't or they didn't work. All of the things you listed above aside, all of these games will have one common trait that separates them from XIV, and that's polish. All of these games look like more time was spent refining them and they all look and play better than XIV does.

XIV doesn't have rails and that's the problem. The entire experience is a deviation from the path because the path forward isn't clear. I discussed this in another post just recently, but games need to be 'on rails' for the most part at least through the beginning. In XIV and even XI, there wasn't anything to guide you. XI for example, you could point to specific landmarks and associate them with levels. The game would have been more fluid if you were at least introduced to these quests at some point, regardless of whether or not you decided to stay on the track or complete these tasks later.

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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#41 May 15 2012 at 12:13 PM Rating: Decent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
XIV doesn't have rails and that's the problem... games need to be 'on rails' for the most part at least through the beginning. In XIV and even XI, there wasn't anything to guide you... The game would have been more fluid if you were at least introduced to these quests at some point


But what some call "fluid" others call "hand-holding." I'd like a game that treats me as though I'm at least intelligent enough to cast a cursory glance around a zone in order to determine whether it might suit my needs. Wasn't it this whole treadmill and signposting mentality that was causing an unadventurous game (and this thread) in the first place? XD
____________________________
"... he called to himself a wizard, named Gallery, hoping by this means to escape the paying of the fifteen hundred crowns..." (Machen 15)

"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#42 May 15 2012 at 12:18 PM Rating: Excellent
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KaneKitty wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
XIV doesn't have rails and that's the problem... games need to be 'on rails' for the most part at least through the beginning. In XIV and even XI, there wasn't anything to guide you... The game would have been more fluid if you were at least introduced to these quests at some point


But what some call "fluid" others call "hand-holding." I'd like a game that treats me as though I'm at least intelligent enough to cast a cursory glance around a zone in order to determine whether it might suit my needs. Wasn't it this whole treadmill and signposting mentality that was causing an unadventurous game (and this thread) in the first place? XD


There's a difference between providing a framework for people to create their own experience, and having no framework whatsoever masked in the guise of "open-ended gameplay".

I think most people would prefer to have a framework present where they are treated like intelligent players, allows for freedom of experience, but still provides contextual clues about possibilities of where to go or what you might like to do next.

FFXIV's starting deal is vacant, practically of framework. And, it shows.
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#43 May 15 2012 at 12:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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Oh wow! We actually have a serious but still civil discussion here. To chime in again, I
think what the Japanese poster wanted to express (that's how I read his lines anyway) was
that players in a MMO do *not* want to go to a themepark, but to *be* Mickey Mouse; or at
least someone that is important for the game world and has a purpose. You are not important
for Disneyland. Sure, you can spend a week in there and still enjoy the icecream, but ultimately
it's unlikely you build "personal attachment" with a Jet Coaster. You just get bored after the
100th ride on the Cutter's Cry Lunatic Lorry.

MMOs, or better: MMORPGs are, in the JP OP's opinion, a different story altogether. It is
true that sometimes a little diversion here, a bit of a sidewalk there (fishing, raids) are cool
and dandy. But nobody wants to fish or raid for the rest of his life.

I think - and I am well aware that it's a little unfair to put words in another's mouth when most
of you have no chance to check whether I rightfully do so - that the Japanese OP wanted a
deep, involving, encompassing and, to a certain degree, "linear" storyline. That's why it's called
"storyline". Because it's a line. It has a start, and some very cool, mysterious and alluring end
on the horizon for us to discover. Step by step. Page by page. Like a book.

Yoshi provided us with the 15-line abstract of the story of Eorzea, and hoped that we would be
intelligent enough to take the long road and slowly read the book. In principle, that's a noble
standpoint. Give people the freedom to do what they want. He just didn't realize that group
dynamics in a MMO don't work that way. If there's a fast track to the top, you are expected to
take it. And you better do, or you'll be playing alone for a looong looong time.

Edit:
Reading through that post of mine, I can't help but thinking it's quite confused and contradictory.
At least we all agree that *something* is missing. I think it's the feeling of being a small but crucial
cog in mankind's last-hope Final Fantasy steampunk train out of Midgard. Or something like that.


Edited, May 15th 2012 2:32pm by Rinsui
#44 May 15 2012 at 12:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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sandpark wrote:
Xoie wrote:
sandpark wrote:
Yoshi's analogy hits his point dead on, but the end result is wrong. Themeparks don't change until the original designed wishes it, & you the visitor have no control over course of the rides. What the players really want is identityparks which the japanese poster seems to be trying to say. They want that from actual friends and rivals and they want npcs to recognize their actions taken upon the world. To get that identity each player must be given select tools to modify the themepark slightly but not demolish it and rebuild from scratch.


I don't think you go to a theme park to be Mickey Mouse. You go to a theme park to see where Mickey Mouse lives. And you expect the theme park to have a diverse amount of activities ready to enjoy. You're not going there to design rides. The crowd is there to have a good time and experience a different world for a little while. If they aren't having fun, they'll leave.


Of course not, but the poster using a bad comparison was speaking about videogames. Gamers do not wanna play any themepark game where no customization or alternate paths are not available. No one said anything about designing games, I said tinkering within select parameters in the provided system. When a process is too straightforward in games with no variations. It is commonly referred to as "on rails". Interesting branching paths, yes please.


Character development shouldn't be confused with the game world. The customization of the game world itself is in the diversity of activities, the alternate paths are where you prefer to spend your day. Not everyone approaches an MMO for the same reasons. Some people want to experience it all, and some want only specific parts.

I don't think I like the idea of sealing off your experiences because you chose the blue door instead of the red door. Some of that does exist in FFXIV in limited ways, but mostly only in which flavor of background storyline you get to participate in. But, linearity is not exactly on the list of problems FFXIV suffers from. You can still orient your activities around economic pursuits or guts-and-glory as you see fit. What's lacking is giving the player the world-contextual motivation and the interaction with meaningful characters along the way, and maybe a bit more emotional significance to reaching a new place in the game world (that doesn't look exactly like the last 10 clearings you passed to get there).

I'd like to see PvP added to the game (which I'm pretty sure it will be). A deep system could bring a lot of re-playability to the game. But I don't expect everyone to want to play PvP. I don't think you should be stuck as a PvPer just because you chose to configure a character that way to try it out and now you're permanently down that "branching path." The "theme park" should let you go to the PvP section if you're interested in going, and it should let you leave if you want to try something else. To me, the theme park vision is a solid one that makes sense for this type of genre.
#45 May 15 2012 at 1:07 PM Rating: Excellent
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The theme park analogy is also flawed because unless you live within 10 miles of one and have a season pass, you usually don't visit one except once or twice a year. The nearest theme park to us when I was growing up was a two hour drive away, and daily tickets were $15 a person, so if the family visited the theme park, it was an event. And I still don't visit that park aside from once a year because it's still over an hour away and the price has gone up to $30 with a Coke can.

Disneyworld is especially a bad analogy, because it's an eight hour drive, or for most people, a plane flight away.

So what do you do when you get there? You try to cram as much into that one day as you possibly can. You want to ride all the rides, especially all the coasters with their hour long lines, eat funnel cakes, watch a live show, hit some of the less popular non-coaster rides, get your picture taken with Mickey, go through a museum, etc. You will ideally spend 12 hours there and be exhausted by the time you leave, but satisfied because you're not coming back for another year.

That's how an offline game should be. An event.

An MMO? That should be more like the local big city park. A short drive away, so if you want to walk the hiking trail one day, you can do so, or you can visit the flower garden, or play on the swingset, or eat at the cafe, etc. Still plenty of stuff to do, but with the content accessible enough that you don't feel the overwhelming need to do everything at once.

And if you're like my friends, you can be Mickey Mouse Fenrir in costume and take pictures there, too.
____________________________
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Thayos wrote:
I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

FFXIV: Katarh Mest and Taprara Rara on Lamia Server - Member of The Swarm
Curator of the XIV Wallpapers Tumblr and the XIV Fashion Tumblr
#46 May 15 2012 at 2:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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catwho wrote:
The theme park analogy is also flawed because unless you live within 10 miles of one and have a season pass, you usually don't visit one except once or twice a year. The nearest theme park to us when I was growing up was a two hour drive away, and daily tickets were $15 a person, so if the family visited the theme park, it was an event. And I still don't visit that park aside from once a year because it's still over an hour away and the price has gone up to $30 with a Coke can.

Disneyworld is especially a bad analogy, because it's an eight hour drive, or for most people, a plane flight away.

So what do you do when you get there? You try to cram as much into that one day as you possibly can. You want to ride all the rides, especially all the coasters with their hour long lines, eat funnel cakes, watch a live show, hit some of the less popular non-coaster rides, get your picture taken with Mickey, go through a museum, etc. You will ideally spend 12 hours there and be exhausted by the time you leave, but satisfied because you're not coming back for another year.

That's how an offline game should be. An event.

An MMO? That should be more like the local big city park. A short drive away, so if you want to walk the hiking trail one day, you can do so, or you can visit the flower garden, or play on the swingset, or eat at the cafe, etc. Still plenty of stuff to do, but with the content accessible enough that you don't feel the overwhelming need to do everything at once.

And if you're like my friends, you can be Mickey Mouse Fenrir in costume and take pictures there, too.


Agree with your mmo city park thoughts.
90% Pre-set structure(which themepark is associated with)
10% WITH a bit of sandbox elements content like PvP, minigames, airship battles, magitek racing circuits(Sort of set-up like pod racing)
Customization in both styles of content.

Wanna keep raids accessible to casuals-semi casual? Make 10 tokens/totem/nuts equal one drop when trading in. Have at least 7 possible drops per raid. That's 70 runs per area total if you wanted everything. Most mmo players are in this bunch. Above average to very good gear is obtained here. Steady progress on short term goals.

Wanna keep hardcore elites happy in raids? Have nightmare mode with 72 hour lockout timers, experience point and death penalties, increase drop rates to match XI rarity. Make this content long term taking months to years like dynamis to aquire relic gears.But this time carry over a token system or let currency purchase gears as well as weapons. So that way any casuals that attempt this content. Have some progress regardless if a shell breaks, they are the unluckiest person, ninja lot screwed, or just bypassed due to new linkshell rules. Also this would allow casuals to play when they can and not worry about falling behind in a point system due to their rl.

The rarer the drops in a token/currency system, the more tokens/currency it costs. Introduce other content with different loot parameters.
#47 May 15 2012 at 3:44 PM Rating: Good
Sage
***
1,675 posts
Not to overstay my welcome, but on the Theme Park topic, I think it has to do with quality over quantity. Disneyland vs. Magic Mountain.

Disneyland only has about 5 or 6 rides I'm really interested in. But the feeling of being transported to other worlds within the park is often times more than enough. Magic Mountain has awesome rides, but not much atmosphere.

I have to want to feel like I belong. I want a mog house, I want recognizable spells. I want recognizable classes. I want an AH. I want to experience and be a part of a Final Fantasy world. Everything else (chocobo races, crafting, etc) is ancillary. Those other things, like a iced lemonade or churro add to an already great experience.

A funnel cake after the Superman ride shouldn't be the highlight of the day.

An MMO world should be familiar (especially in the case of FF), yet fantasy and well done. (FFXVI in the beginning deviated too much from what defined a FF game).

Plus for MMOS, there has to be a reward for EVERYTHING. Rewards in the form of random drops. Rewards for skill. Rewards for time. Rewards for quests. Stats should mean something. Gear should mean something. Abilities should mean something.

You should be looking forward to every. single. level.

This is a lazy example but:

Level 1 - 5 Should go by in a blink.

Level 5 oooh new ability
Level 6 oooh I can wear that new hat, oooh random drop
Level 7 oooh I can go to that new area, new sword!
Level 8 oooh I can buy that cool robe, go to that other area and gained another ability
Level 9 oooh boots! and another new area!
Level 10 oooh I can become a Knight, and get a certificate for a airship ride, I get 2 new abilities and a shield.

From there you lengthen the grind, hide the grind through public quests, regular quests and random drops. Have tons of gear to choose from and make abilities even more powerful each time you level from here on out. And you should feel powerful in the world as you level.

You need quests that put you on a linear path through the world and are non-repetitive. Meaning guildleves have to go. They KILL adventure. Once I ride Pirates of the Carribean, sure I'd go again later, but 3 times is too much, I'm on to the Haunted Mansion.

I haven't played FFXIV in a few months, but if I logged back in I'd be stuck in Camp Horizon for at least a couple more levels and that's just unacceptable.
#48 May 15 2012 at 9:57 PM Rating: Excellent
Scholar
43 posts
I have the urge to visit Disneyland now.
#49 May 15 2012 at 10:21 PM Rating: Excellent
***
3,530 posts
catwho wrote:
And if you're like my friends, you can be Mickey Mouse Fenrir in costume and take pictures there, too.


It doesn't even matter what you say, surreptitiously integrating somebody wearing a fur-suit into the closing remarks of a post wins the argument, if for no other reason than pure distraction. It's like the Internet Master's version of, "Hey, look over there!"

I'd attempt the heroic manoeuvre myself, but I'm dreadfully afraid of what Google might see fit to return should I go looking into the woods, as it were.
____________________________
"... he called to himself a wizard, named Gallery, hoping by this means to escape the paying of the fifteen hundred crowns..." (Machen 15)

"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#50 May 15 2012 at 11:52 PM Rating: Good
****
4,151 posts
Kierk wrote:
This is a lazy example but:

Level 1 - 5 Should go by in a blink.

Level 5 oooh new ability
Level 6 oooh I can wear that new hat, oooh random drop
Level 7 oooh I can go to that new area, new sword!
Level 8 oooh I can buy that cool robe, go to that other area and gained another ability
Level 9 oooh boots! and another new area!
Level 10 oooh I can become a Knight, and get a certificate for a airship ride, I get 2 new abilities and a shield.


You need quests that put you on a linear path through the world and are non-repetitive. Meaning guildleves have to go. They KILL adventure. Once I ride Pirates of the Carribean, sure I'd go again later, but 3 times is too much, I'm on to the Haunted Mansion.


I like the 'Oooh look, a shiney [insert item/ability/area here]' concept. Distract players from a grind by allowing them to progress through the game and presenting them with skills, abilities and experiences that they enjoy and are entertained by. This sounds a lot like proper game development. Wait a **** minute! I see what you're trying to do here...
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Rinsui wrote:
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HaibaneRenmei wrote:
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cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#51 May 16 2012 at 4:45 PM Rating: Excellent
Needs More Smut
******
21,262 posts
KaneKitty wrote:
catwho wrote:
And if you're like my friends, you can be Mickey Mouse Fenrir in costume and take pictures there, too.


It doesn't even matter what you say, surreptitiously integrating somebody wearing a fur-suit into the closing remarks of a post wins the argument, if for no other reason than pure distraction. It's like the Internet Master's version of, "Hey, look over there!"

I'd attempt the heroic manoeuvre myself, but I'm dreadfully afraid of what Google might see fit to return should I go looking into the woods, as it were.


That particular friend also did a kickass Carbuncle once, but I don't think he has the pics on the internet any more.

Come to think of it, haven't seen much by way of 14 cosplay yet. Seems like cosplaying a newbie would be easy, just need a few white burlap sacks and some rope...
____________________________
FFXI: Catwho on Bismarck: Retired December 2014
Thayos wrote:
I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

FFXIV: Katarh Mest and Taprara Rara on Lamia Server - Member of The Swarm
Curator of the XIV Wallpapers Tumblr and the XIV Fashion Tumblr
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